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blackjack
25-03-2010, 15:43
I love lists.

With the New BA codex I was wondering how they fit in the power level of the existing Marine Dex's

My List goes like this

Space Wolfs. (Grey Wolfs better than Regular marines in all respects including price :wtf:, Devistators that can split fire, get more heavy weapons per team and cost less :wtf:, spamable Librarians with fantastic Psi powers, Great ICs)

Blood Angels. (Best assault units, Sang priests, Fast Vehicles, Fixed Dev squad prices. But the IC's are Meh and unlke space wolfs every improvment over the basic marines costs points)

Space Marines (Vulcan...)

Black Templars (good assault but new BA leave them wanting.)

Dark Angels. (in serious need of fixing up, were underpowered in 4th ed and are much worse now.)

Grey Knights. (this makes me a sad panda, Grey knights have IMO the best fluff in the game of 40k. Yet they are an over priced under diversified army and the oldest of codex's. I really look forward to a revamp of my favorite marines.)


What do you guys think?

castellanash
25-03-2010, 15:51
i think you're idea rules wise are sound however fluff wise it goes IMO,
Grey Knights
Dark Angels,
Space Wolves,
Blood Angels,
Space Marines

Lord Damocles
25-03-2010, 15:56
Obviously it would depend on the specific style of list in question. A bike heavy list might be best with Vanilla Marines, and worst with Space Wolves, while an Infantry heavy force might be better with Black Templars and worst with Grey Knights etc.
However I'll have a pop anyway:

1. Space Wolves (Grey Hunters are awesome troops even if they can't take built-in squad leaders).

2. Blood Angels and Vanilla Marines (Blood Angels get lots of toys, but they certainly have to pay for them).

3. Black Templars (It's like 4th edition!)

4. Dark Angels (Sadly their areas of specialism have been rather eroded by other lists).

5. Grey Knights (Although this is fairly obvious. A pure Grey Knight army is making a conscious decision to not take half the units in the codex, and cuts out inducted units as well!)

ehlijen
25-03-2010, 15:56
Background wise they are all equal with different specialties (Yes, even the grey knights).

blackjack
25-03-2010, 16:41
Background/fluff wise they are certianly NOT equal. Grey Knights are the Seed of the emperor himself and are described as having unlimited access to Imperial resources and the abilty to induct any Imperial assets including Marines.

minionboy
25-03-2010, 17:37
Space Marines get scouts as troops, landspeeder scout transports, thunderfire cannons, ironclad dreadnoughts, venerable dreads (sorry BA), Masters of the Forge (conversion beamers!), and a few other great options that no other marine book gets. I would hardly call them vanilla, more like cookies and cream.

The great thing about the latest 3 marine books is that they all managed to have characterful armies and many different options, while all still being iconic space marines. Everyone (even vanilla) has some great toys.

I don't even list Vulcan as an option, I ebayed my salamander army when the codex came out because I felt filthy for playing what I considered a "fluffy" army. I kinda miss them. :(

I would rate the Marine Codices:
Space Marines - A solid army, be sure to use all the options the other chapters don't get!
Blood Angels - New, pretty, expensive.
Space Wolves - A very well rounded army, solid troops.
Black Templars - Are we still playing 4th edition?
Dark Angels - No really, are we?
Grey Knights - Sigh...

LonelyPath
25-03-2010, 20:30
@ Lord Damocles - Taking GK still allows you to take inducted Guard, just not SM, even after all these years I still think it's a shame that taking GK means no inducted SM allies.

The one thing that amuses me the most about the current SM codex range though, is that the richer the fluff, the weaker the list is, heh.

Hicks
25-03-2010, 21:30
Your list is spot on blackjack.

LKHERO
25-03-2010, 21:34
1. Space Wolves on top.
2. Blood Angels.
3. Codex Marines.
4. DA, BT.
5. Grey Knights.

Col. Tartleton
25-03-2010, 23:04
The real question is how ****ed everyone is going to be when Black Templars, Dark Angels, or Grey Knights (Especially GK) are released. I'm kind of expecting Sword Brethren to have D6 relic blade attacks, Deathwing to have a tactical nuclear option on their cyclone missiles, Ravenwing to have at least 1 duel sword wielding dreadnoughts on a jetbike, and the grey knights on eldar jetbikes will be like Ork Nob Bikers but with Strike at initiative "Lance" powerfists, and 2+ invulnerable saves and every beneficial USR and a half dozen unique and army wide abilities.

Mannimarco
25-03-2010, 23:46
another thread won by Col. Tartleton

my order:

codex: puppies
codex: vampires
codex: you wish you were a smurf
codex: its the crusades in the 41 millenium
codex: are they traitors or are they not
codex: purge the daemon, even though they have a vastly superior book

Ozendorph
26-03-2010, 00:02
I couldn't tell you where the BA fit in just yet, but I wouldn't be so quick to put the Wolves above the Vanilla Marines. Both codices have their strong points, and I've gone up against Vulkan and Kantor lists that left my head spinning (and my models in a huge dead-pile).

ehlijen
26-03-2010, 01:31
Background/fluff wise they are certianly NOT equal. Grey Knights are the Seed of the emperor himself and are described as having unlimited access to Imperial resources and the abilty to induct any Imperial assets including Marines.

I thought we're talking capability not rights on paper? What good is access (in terms of raw capability) if you also need to requisition a guy to use the thing you just claimed for you?

Grey knights train more with a specific set of weaponry, but they will forever lack the all round capability of your average tactical marine.

Doppleskanger
26-03-2010, 02:42
I really like the SW codex for it's flexibility. You really can do a lot with that. I'm not even sure about the comments about bike heavy lists. i mean sure they aint scoring, but boy are they cheap!

The marine codex ses out 3 or 4 builds and then you're stuck with them. I miss the 4th ed dex for its ability to let you build your own unique force

DA at the bottom, BT just under SW (that can be a far better army than in 4th ed if you look at it right) Marines in the middle and Haven't seen BA yet

Xyrex
26-03-2010, 03:23
I am so sad, my DA are so underpowered:cries: We SHOULD get a dreadnaught on a bike:evilgrin: and the nuclear missiles for terminators:angel:

Mannimarco
26-03-2010, 03:27
given the rate of codex creep you probably will, of course when the DE finally come out they will be an instant IWIN though

Amnar
26-03-2010, 03:32
Will any of us still be alive?

Xyrex
26-03-2010, 03:39
I dont know, I personally think they should drop DE, cuz like noone plays them. They seem to be a very minor race, one that could simply disapear... I think they should update

Inquisition
Crons
BT
DA
eldar or tau
in that oerder

williamhm
26-03-2010, 04:51
I dont know, I personally think they should drop DE, cuz like noone plays them. They seem to be a very minor race, one that could simply disapear... I think they should update

Inquisition
Crons
BT
DA
eldar or tau
in that oerder

Uh what? No one plays de due to lack of support if they did they would be played.

I agree with ratings acording to power acording to fluff I'd put it like this

BA
GK
DA
Vanilla
drunken frat boys aka space puppies. I really really hate the current space wolf fluff. Haven't looked at the current BA dex yet but I've always loved the fluff about the noble but doomed chapter of space marines, and Saginarius is the best of all the primarchs. Even Horace respected him. Besides after the Thousand Sons book how anyone can say the space wolves are good fluff wise is just weird. Thousand Sons did not depict them in a good light at all, hence why I think of them as drunken frat boys with bolters.

Xyrex
26-03-2010, 05:08
I second william, but BA shouldnt be on top

Ronin_eX
26-03-2010, 05:10
Rules wise:

1) Space Wolves/Blood Angels

They basically benefit from GW's usual "tweak balance as we go along" mentality and it shows. It is less noticeable in the SW codex because they get a lot of different options that don't map across to generic options well but overall they gain flexibility while losing surprisingly little. The Blood Angels may have made out even better. Tons of unique vehicles and units while keeping a lot of the generic ones. And for the advantages they get they don't seem to pay inordinately more for them (and sometimes they seem to pay less or even the same). So not hugely more powerful and I daresay that the gap is small enough to be fun but there is certainly a lot of creep across various fields (option creep, stat creep and a little power creep).

2) Codex Space Marines/Black Templar

These guys get loads of options and a lot of perks. Were it not for the above two simply getting more/equal versatility plus stronger specialized units then they would be on top. It also missed the mark on making more army types viable (no veteran company? really?). The BT still get a lot of mileage out of being created back under the 4th edition lots of gear/rules mentality. A lot of changes and errata have also helped in the new edition (preferred enemy getting better, their land raiders getting updated versions of the rules, etc.). So because they are already around the options level current codices are they don't suffer much for being so old.

3) Dark Angels

Developed under a short lived philosophy of minimalism that never quite seemed to work out. They cut down on the special rules, cut down on the options and choices and cut back on character power quite a bit. Some of the things they pioneered are still going strong (individual wargear lists, more controlled options, more robust starting wargear packages for marines) but the near constant rules revision GW is fond of eventually left a codex that was meant to signal a new, less over the top experience considered a little weak for its own edition in the dust.

4) Grey Knights

These poor bastards have it even worse in almost every case. They are horribly expensive and over specialized because they were formed from an army that was never meant to be fielded on its own. GW essentially made a full army out of a single unit entry from a previous edition and it really shows in concept and execution. The whole thing could have used a lot more refinement since the original concept (Daemon Hunters) was far too specialized to make them viable outside the role. Worse still many of their rules lag behind with no attempt to amend them. They are still using equipment stats GW has already deemed underpowered (like the old assault cannon) and they mesh poorly with the current rule set where they can no longer ally in normal games (since the lists they used to ally with are long gone).

GW either needs to make a full on Imperial Agents list to tack on to current Imperial forces or they need to change the fluff to let Grey Knights become more than just Daemon Hunters (or extend the definition of Daemon to include many, many more monstrous creatures). Because they still don't feel like they have enough options to be their own chapter unless they make them a lot more autonomous from their original mission statement.

As for updating BT should probably be brought up to date while GW should really put some thought into the various Imperial sub-faction lists before jumping onto the full codex treatment for each one thing again. And dropping DE would suck unless the Eldar go back to representing all facets of the race again (Craftworld, Pirate, Exodite) as they do represent an interesting possibility. But like the GK they suffer from poor initial conceptualization and execution. Given improvements on those front and they will be fine.