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View Full Version : Why do Daemon Princes suck?



John Wayne II
26-03-2010, 18:17
I was leafing through the Daemons of Chaos book the other day and I suddenly came upon the Daemon Prince entry. Compared to the the stuff in the rest of the book, the Prince just kinda sucks. And I thought to myself: is this actually a fluffy way to represent the awesome power of a Daemon Prince? In the fluff they are godlike beings, the result of an apotheosis granted to a lucky mortal by the gods. This suggests that they should be with Greater Daemons among the most powerful of the Gods' servants. But then you look at the statline and think...um, is this it? It's not that different from the statline of a Chaos mortal lord. If all you gain for your hard fought sacrifice is +1 wound, -1 to your leadership, a crummy 5+ ward save and the ability to gallop as fast as a horse, then maybe all these Chaos champions should ask themselves what they're doing there in the first place, and switch to doing something more productive with their lives. :eyebrows:

While in 40K there's a striking difference between a Chaos Lord and a Daemon Prince (which is why you almost never see the Chaos Lord taken), the situation is not as clear cut when it comes to fantasy. I think Daemon Prince should receive a moderate boost in their power, and maybe have their exact role in a fantasy army reassesed, because everything they can do can be done better and more cost effectively by something else.

Thoughts? :angel:

Malorian
26-03-2010, 18:21
Compared to the the stuff in the rest of the book, the Prince just kinda sucks.

That is all.

If it wasn't for the rest of the book the deamon prince would have been just fine.


Although I know a good number of people that use one and do very well.

snottlebocket
26-03-2010, 18:24
Mostly they're just very expensive. A flying, stubborn, spell casting terror that can hide behind units is quite useful.

By the time you tooled him up, he's just very expensive and quite unprotected aside from his hiding abilities. Which to be honest doesn't really scream demon prince.

Jack of Blades
26-03-2010, 18:41
Their problems vary between the books.

DoC princes have good gifts but can't take many of them due to a curious 75 point limit and up to 50 points of this on their mark (the mark provides no benefit beyond giving access to mark-specific gifts). They can also be max level 2 sorcerers, have to pay 20 gift points to fly and merely cause fear & are immune to psychology. They are also subject to the usual daemonic instability and actually have magical attacks. DoC princes would've been decent but overpriced and quite castrated by the level 2 sorcerer and 75/50 point limits for a lord-level character, if GDs hadn't been present.

WoC princes have 100 points of gifts. The thing is that these gifts are a joke compared to the DoC gifts and none of them improve their combat ability at all. A Biting Blade is infinitely more useful to a DP in close combat than 1000 points of those gifts. Speaking of magic weapons these ones do not have magical attacks and cannot get any, fly by default, are stubborn, may be level 4 sorcerers and actually cause terror.

Also, their marks do something for them. Tzeentch is the only useful mark when it comes to what the marks provide. Nurgle doesn't do much, Slaanesh is completely useless and Khorne frenzies your several hundred points worth flying character who cannot fight anywhere near what you'd expect a combat lord to take on. Tzeentch Princes are okay but not fantastic.

Neither Prince can join units.


DoC Prince advantages:
- Good gift options
- Magical attacks

WoC Prince advantages
- Up to level 4 Sorcerer
- Fly by default, terror, stubborn
- Marks that at least provide them with something
- 100 points of gifts

If WoC Princes had access to the gifts that DoC ones do but without the mark point restriction, Slaanesh gave ASF and Khorne gave +1 attack then they would be a potent but relatively expensive character, sort of like a Vermin Lord. Alas, you will have to create house rules if you want real results.

Avian
26-03-2010, 20:15
Thoughts? :angel:
I'd like them to be better at the starting cost of 300 pts (+1 Ld, immune to psychology, magical attacks, D6 Eye of the Gods rolls), have more useful Marks (same as the Giant instead of same as a chaos lord), be able to take 100 pts worth of magic weapons / armour and have access to some more reasonable gifts that would actually make it possible to tool him up at something other than spell casting.

Gaargod
26-03-2010, 21:26
DoC princes are interesting. To be frank, they'd be bad in pretty much any army book (hell, i wouldn't take one in an OK army!). In the DoC book, they're not just bad but become sheer useless compared. Its not that they have particularly bad stats, but they're not great, with only hero level magic, and super expensive.

WoC princes are far more usable. Lv4 Tzeentch princes with diabolic splendour (or Fury of Blood God + roar) and tendrils of tzeentch are rather good casters and can terror bomb stuff nicely. However, they're still around 570pts, and a sorcerer lord on dragon will vastly outperform them (break ranks, better magic items, more combat potential) for only an extra 200 or so pts.

Lord Inquisitor
26-03-2010, 21:50
That is all.

If it wasn't for the rest of the book the deamon prince would have been just fine.
I don't think so - compared with the WoC version (which still isn't that amazing) they still suck pretty badly. Even on their own merits and ignoring the other Lord options, I've tried and tried to get one to work and it feels like a handicap. They stick out in the DoC book of across the board awesomeness as a really bad unit. Essentially, you're looking at only 55 points of gifts after you buy wings (remind me why they don't come as standard and why Princes only have 75 points of gifts?), the marks cost points and don't provide anything but god-specific gifts, which you can't really make the most of because you have so little gift allowance! You can still use them as a flying, terror-causing monster with moderate close combat capacity, but hideously vulnerable and at about 450pts when kitted out, rediculously expensive. To top it off, they don't even have Ld9. It isn't just that the rest of the book is good, the princes are actually bad. I might consider taking one in an Ogre Kingdom army, just about - but only because Ogres don't have any flying units so the Prince become valuable for that reason alone, but there are few other armies that I would consider taking one.

The only reason to take a Daemon Prince is to deliberately handicap yourself so that you can have the fun of a Lord level character in a "friendly" list. Which is no bad thing and its still possible to make one work in this context.


Mostly they're just very expensive. A flying, stubborn, spell casting terror that can hide behind units is quite useful.

By the time you tooled him up, he's just very expensive and quite unprotected aside from his hiding abilities. Which to be honest doesn't really scream demon prince.
That applies to the WoC prince. The DoC prince doesn't get Stubborn or Flying as standard, marks are more expensive with no direct advantage, can only buy magic up to Lvl 2 rather than 4 and has less gift allowance. The only dubious advantage the DoC version has is that he's ItP, but that also means he can't voluntarily flee.

Jack of Blades
26-03-2010, 22:03
terror-causing

Actually DoC ones don't cause terror. I know it sounds like I've missed something but read their entry, it doesn't say terror anywhere. It does for Greater Daemons.

Lord Inquisitor
26-03-2010, 22:13
Actually DoC ones don't cause terror. I know it sounds like I've missed something but read their entry, it doesn't say terror anywhere. It does for Greater Daemons.
Ha! I never noticed that. :o Okay, they're even worse than I thought!

chaospantz
26-03-2010, 22:31
I like the DP but for a tournament game they seem to come across as a bit expensive and under protectied. Something I think they need are 1)Attacks count as magical. I see no reason why they shouldn't be. 2)a 4+ ward before you start puting on marks would be nice. Since the mortals in the book have a 50 point limit on gifts they could have also put in some nice gifts that are high enough in points that they can only be taken by a DP. Im speaking about the WoC version.

On a side note I think I've asked this a couple times but im a bit disapointed in GW for not puting out a plastic DP. This is not one of those complaints about no model like the Abomb or the Beastmen rare monsters. This was a model that has fully painted pictures in the book for crying out loud. I don't know what there reasoning is seeing as how it's a model that can be used in both fantisy and 40K game systems and has an entry in 4 different army books.

One last thing and I hate to bring it up, the fact that the same creature being so different in 2 books makes me wonder if GW has much on any oversight conserining there books at all. More and more it seems like when writing a book they just give all the rights to 1 person and let them write whatever they want. If they were to have a group of people writing and testing the books then I think you would see a much more standard and ballanced set of books across the board. I don't think its a big deal when it comes to things like different gifts for different books, but it comes across more when you see things like one causes terror and the other dosent, one comes flying standard and one dosent, and one can become a lvl 2 mage and the other can go up to a lvl 4.

nzdarkelf
27-03-2010, 00:44
Their problems vary between the books.
DoC princes have good gifts but can't take many of them due to a curious 75 point limit and up to 50 points of this on their mark (the mark provides no benefit beyond giving access to mark-specific gifts).

Sorry this is slightly wrong. DoC Princes may take 75pts of Daemonic Gifts, and up to 50pts of this allowance may be on Gifts available to a Greater Daemon with the same God mark. He does not pay for his Gods mark from his 75pt Gift allocation it is paid seperately and costs 35pts.

Jack of Blades
27-03-2010, 03:07
Sorry this is slightly wrong. DoC Princes may take 75pts of Daemonic Gifts, and up to 50pts of this allowance may be on Gifts available to a Greater Daemon with the same God mark. He does not pay for his Gods mark from his 75pt Gift allocation it is paid seperately and costs 35pts.

Err, that's exactly what I said...

w3rm
27-03-2010, 03:29
Hey a nurgle daemon prince with trappings and immortal fury and lvl 2 can make a nasty flanker. Just saying hes overpriced but not unuseful.

magikjoka
27-03-2010, 04:25
I will have to agree that Demon Prince is indeed bit expensive when you tool him (or her) for some what useful way. I'm getting a hint that GW didnt want players to take DP as much as other greater demon or something. Maybe they added DP in demon book just for fluff, so they are fielded more often by CSM than in Demons.

Vadth
27-03-2010, 07:30
Err, that's exactly what I said...

I'm sorry but no that's not what you said. I play WoC but I know nothing about DoC. Your post had me thinking DoC Princes had to buy their mark from the same allotment they buy gifts from.

Jack of Blades
27-03-2010, 07:46
I know nothing about DoC

This. And did you honestly think that they'd have to buy marks out of their gift points? I really don't see the ambiguity with the way I put it. But if you had never read the rules entry then it shouldn't come as a surprise that you don't get it right, since you don't know what to understand in the first place. I really, really don't see how you could interpret it the way you did... up to 50 points on their mark (putting it like that would be very strange when the marks have fixed costs), mark-specific gifts... :eyebrows:

Anyway let's not struggle with definitions any longer, we're here to discuss DPs. I maintain what I said earlier, if you want to actually have an effective DP you will have to create house rules.

Harwammer
27-03-2010, 11:44
I'm sorry but no that's not what you said. I play WoC but I know nothing about DoC. Your post had me thinking DoC Princes had to buy their mark from the same allotment they buy gifts from.

+1.

"a curious 75 point limit and up to 50 points of this on their mark"

Reads like different marks cost different amounts (up to 50 points taken out of a 75 point limit). Ambiguous with out looking up the rule.

theunwantedbeing
27-03-2010, 11:55
WoC, he pays a +50% premium over the other lords to begin with to not get any of the useful equiptment options or item selection, as well as being stuck on his own.
End result being you pay dragon level points for him(and above), for something of griffon level abilities.

DoC even bigger issues. He loses out on fly and terror and the only good builds see him needing to be so close in cost to a greater daemon, your better off with the far better value greater daemon, its a similar problem to the WoC one.
Dragon level points(and above) for a griffon level monster.

It's often the case with half and half type character's though.
Your not a dedicated fighter, your not a dedicated mage so you end out being more expensive than either and not as good in either build, and on top of that the daemon prince is stuck standing around on his own almost completely naked waiting to be shot down by the first handful of arrows that fly his way.

w3rm
27-03-2010, 14:59
I think my price is actually fairly decent. With misasma he can straight up own most things in the face if he gets the charge. That is just a nasty spell.

Jack of Blades
27-03-2010, 16:52
+1.

"a curious 75 point limit and up to 50 points of this on their mark"

Reads like different marks cost different amounts (up to 50 points taken out of a 75 point limit). Ambiguous with out looking up the rule.

But it's a mark, it has a fixed cost. It'd be like saying ''you may spend up to 50 points on this 35 point item'', do you honestly think it would be like that? Nah well, I must admit that I assumed people who read it knew the gift selection rules so that could be why.

Kevlar
27-03-2010, 18:36
Demon Princes aren't that bad, any army except Chaos would be very happy with one. Chaos is just spoiled because they have an entire army of undercosted models that get a 5+ ward save for free. I can give that to one character and it costs me 30 pts. Fighting demons is as bad as fighting IoN spamming vampires. You have to do 33 percent more wounds than any other army, and that is not reflected in their points cost. Its basically fighting a 3000 point army with your 2000 point army.

Jack of Blades
27-03-2010, 18:42
Demon Princes aren't that bad, any army except Chaos would be very happy with one. Chaos is just spoiled because they have an entire army of undercosted models that get a 5+ ward save for free. I can give that to one character and it costs me 30 pts. Fighting demons is as bad as fighting IoN spamming vampires. You have to do 33 percent more wounds than any other army, and that is not reflected in their points cost. Its basically fighting a 3000 point army with your 2000 point army.

So you'd take a Daemon Prince in your Dark Elf army? what about a Wood Elf one. Or Empire? O&G? want to go on? :rolleyes:

R-Love
27-03-2010, 19:44
Demon Princes aren't that bad, any army except Chaos would be very happy with one. Chaos is just spoiled because they have an entire army of undercosted models that get a 5+ ward save for free. I can give that to one character and it costs me 30 pts. Fighting demons is as bad as fighting IoN spamming vampires. You have to do 33 percent more wounds than any other army, and that is not reflected in their points cost. Its basically fighting a 3000 point army with your 2000 point army.

First of all, the OP specifically asked not to start a Daemon bashing session, and this is just wrong. It doesn't matter if the majority of your army is low toughness (bar Nurgle) no AS if they have a ward save, right? The Daemon book is hardly balanced, but people need to stop aiming at an easy target. The book may be broken but it isn't because of the ward saves or ITP, and there are plenty of choices which are good but don't destroy everything before them. It's not the book's fault no-one uses them.

Jack of Blades
27-03-2010, 19:51
It's not the book's fault no-one uses them.

It's the book's fault, it must be destroyed! KILL THE BOOK! burn it alive!!! :evilgrin:

Mullitron
27-03-2010, 21:53
I think the aim with the prince when writing the daemon book was to create a character weaker than the main lord choices (greater daemons) but stronger than the heralds, which goes with the fluff. But with the greater daemons being soo strong for their points costs the princes would either be close in points cost to the greater daemons to be as strong as the background suggests and so not worth it. Or weak and not as strong as the fluff suggests. As a 200 point weak character they ruin the background but as a 400 point character their too close to the points of a greater daemon and most of the time not worth taking, so they went for an in between character which sadly still had no use. I feel like the designers of the books simply dont know exactly what to do with them. They could make them super powerful but then they would be close to the power of a greater daemon or make them weak and somewhat pointless compared to greater daemons or chaos lords.

Any suggestions on how to make a daemon prince in a daemon or warrior book a viable choice but not so they are a simple upgrade from a chaos lord or a cheaper greater daemon, but an interesting, unique lord choice?

Jack of Blades
27-03-2010, 22:05
Any suggestions on how to make a daemon prince in a daemon or warrior book a viable choice but not so they are a simple upgrade from a chaos lord or a cheaper greater daemon, but an interesting, unique lord choice?

Certainly. Here's what I'd do:

- DoC Princes can be up to level 4 Sorcerers, 40 points per level like WoC ones.
- WoC Princes have the Daemonic rule.
- DoC Princes cause terror and fly by default just like WoC ones.
- DoC Princes are also stubborn.
- Both Princes are bumped up to ld9 (why the hell would the be ld8?).
- Both Princes can take up to 100 points of gifts from both army books. Both can spend any amount of that allowance on mark-specific gifts from their respective Greater Daemon & Herald entries if they have a mark.
- For both Princes, mark of Slaanesh gives ASF, mark of Khorne gives +1 attack and the marks of Nurgle & Tzeentch give the effects they already do in the WoC book.

Fully enhanced, this character would cost you 560 points before adding a mark. Greater Daemons cost around 650 points for also being fully kitted. Thus, you may want to remove 60 points from the base cost or 40 points and 5 from each wizard level, but I'd be happy with those changes.

Then you could let them take WoC magic items in addition to their gifts but without a separate allowance, ie. they can take 100 points of gifts and/or magic items.

logan054
27-03-2010, 22:13
I was leafing through the Daemons of Chaos book the other day and I suddenly came upon the Daemon Prince entry. Compared to the the stuff in the rest of the book, the Prince just kinda sucks. .......then maybe all these Chaos champions should ask themselves what they're doing there in the first place



You should look at the WoC one then, my god, wtf, i asked myself the very sam question, why would a khorne mortal ever want to be a daemon prince, he goes from being rock hard to hardcore muppet..


I wish people will actually think abit more before they write a army book :(

Solasun
27-03-2010, 22:25
The ability to buy Locus powers (For a dedicated Prince only of course) and then perhaps buff their ability to *lead* the Daemonic Host or perhaps buff the Host is some ways akin to a Butcher or BSB?

Which seems OP in context of the current book but making them support that was worth taking would go well I think.

Mullitron
27-03-2010, 22:34
- Both Princes are bumped up to ld9 (why the hell would the be ld8?).
.

I think the aim was to make them a support lord who goes around doing damage instead of leading their men/minions into battle like chaos lords. However it just doesnt work with the background in my opinion that their worse leaders than some leadership 9 characters avaliable to other lists.

I think if theres daemon princes out there like angron in the background theres opportunity to make some nastly daemon princes and still make them fluffy. I would start them off cheap, change the marks just as you said (why the woc giant got that but not the prince is my biggest gripe with the book) and give them LOADS of options like vampire counts. Where they can start them off as relatively cheap flying terror causers. But then have the option to become nasty melee combat creatures like a lord on a dragon, a strong caster or even a combo of the two like a sorcorer lord on a dragon. They wont be able to join units so suffer from the same weaknesses as a lord on dragon but make up for it in other ways.... again like a lord on dragon :p

Jack of Blades
27-03-2010, 22:40
I think the aim was to make them a support lord who goes around doing damage instead of leading their men/minions into battle like chaos lords. However it just doesnt work with the background in my opinion that their worse leaders than some leadership 9 characters avaliable to other lists.

I think if theres daemon princes out there like angron in the background theres opportunity to make some nastly daemon princes and still make them fluffy. I would start them off cheap, change the marks just as you said (why the woc giant got that but not the prince is my biggest gripe with the book) and give them LOADS of options like vampire counts. Where they can start them off as relatively cheap flying terror causers. But then have the option to become nasty melee combat creatures like a lord on a dragon, a strong caster or even a combo of the two like a sorcorer lord on a dragon. They wont be able to join units so suffer from the same weaknesses as a lord on dragon but make up for it in other ways.... again like a lord on dragon :p

That's what they'll be considering that they can't join units and are flying terror causers. Their ld9 still won't be good for much else than themselves :D

Doing what I described gives them the options for that. I experimented with separate magic item/gift allowances a while ago but I came to the conclusion that you'd be able to make combinations that would just be too strong. Besides that, the gifts are overall stronger than the VC bloodline powers & magic items so it evens out. If you had separate allowances you'd be able to create dreadful abominations that would walk over anything they hit in close combat and still be good mages. With a combined allowance you can still do that but they won't be as extreme, which is imo a good thing.

_Ashdil_
28-03-2010, 00:17
Many has said why it sucks. It just costs to much. And the sillyness for the DoC one of only getting 75p (should be 100) and not having terror or fly as standard.
They should get that and +1 W and loose 25p from starting cost.
Marks should do something...
And to make them worth taking instead of a GD (without hurting them, as they should.) Make an undivided DP take Furies as a normal core choice. Counting towards core minimum.

With that they would be an excellent choice. Perhaps lvl4 is too much, more interesting with them only going as high as 3, but only lvl 2 is lame.