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Prokrustes
29-03-2010, 18:32
Well, I have been wondering who GWs red-haired step-children are and why they are it and maybe why GW didnt just remake them into something they can handle. I read so much about them, that I started to wonder if there is even a consensus on who they are and why?

My personal guesses:

Slaanesh - The really dark and sinister chaos god for the adults. They cant bring his theme to bear because decadence, excess, drugs and sexuality are unacceptable for youngsters resp. their parents unlike massive ott violence ;)
Probably among the reasons why he never features as a god in a video game (DoW Series (including part II where they dont even acknowledge that there is a 4th chaos god), WAR,etc.) and why we have "noise marines" instead of decadent masochistic pierced freaks high on drugs ;)

Dark Eldar: I guess they share some of the problems with Slaanesh...

Dark Angels: No clue why...I just cant get rid of the feeling that GW doesnt like them

Thousand Sons: Looking at the rules since 2nd edition I also cant get rid of the feeling that GW a) doesnt like them and b) has no clue what to do with them. (To a lesser degree probably also Alpha Legion and Night Lords)

Adepta Sororitas/Witchhunters: Well..I think they are awesome, GW...I have no clue how they view them but I guess with so many marines going girls in power armour prolly arent what they used to be...

Chaos Daemons: Somehow, I think that GW might have realised that the daemons codex might not have been such an awesome idea. Must be the lack of support for daemons that makes me think that...

Specialist Games: Well, they seem to be cool, they have nice minis and they exist...this is all I have ever heard of them in years...so...


What do you think who GWs red-haired step-children are and why?

Bestaltan
29-03-2010, 18:34
Squats.

Nothing says red-headed step-child like getting wiped from the galaxy......

Lord Malorne
29-03-2010, 18:38
What is wrong with being red haired?

NotMyIfurita
29-03-2010, 18:39
Have to agree with Squats.. But if they have to be a 'current' race it'd have to be the dark eldar. They haven't even bothered to make up a reason for the lack of support for them. At least the squats got thier little 'eaten by nids' blurb.

mr_gosh_the_return
29-03-2010, 18:42
slannesh, DE, orks, anything bar the imperium and nids for 40k.

for warhammer, everything. 40 is stupidly favoured. Anyway gotta go, time for corporate brain washing...

must buy new SME codex....must buy new SME codex

***Rant over***

wazatdingder
29-03-2010, 18:43
I would have to say Tau, the Squats are like their dead beat dad that you never see.

Mannimarco
29-03-2010, 18:45
definately the DE

for the past decade they have been stuck in limbo, not squated but not acknowledged either

x-esiv-4c
29-03-2010, 18:48
Blood Angels and Space Wolves as seperate entities. Those resources could have been funnelled into something a lot more useful like a DE update / Necron update.

TheBigBadWolf
29-03-2010, 18:51
What is wrong with being red haired?

everything.

DE are pretty unloved, but the grapevine has whispers.

eriochrome
29-03-2010, 19:02
Specialist Games: Nothing says love like not even being able to order them through FLGS anymore.

DarthSte
29-03-2010, 19:12
everything.

DE are pretty unloved, but the grapevine has whispers.

Really? What have you heard?!!?11

N810
29-03-2010, 19:13
Space Slann :eyebrows:

(bastard redheaded step children)

TheBigBadWolf
29-03-2010, 19:25
Really? What have you heard?!!?11

I cant say at the moment, but I expect some of what ive been told appearing soon.

Bigbot
29-03-2010, 19:33
Chaos Deamons are unpopular?

SandQueen
29-03-2010, 19:45
Slaanesh isnt a red haired step child. You can do plenty with them in the ways of modelling and themes. You dont NEED to put huge tracks of land on your dreadnaught. In fact if you did it would look really stupid. You can equate the unnerving sexuality and depravity of Slaanesh very well without resorting to obscenity.

Dark Eldar are something of a Red Haired step child in that their rules make them almost impossible for entry level players to get a feel for.

Dark Angels just need an update, nothing more really.

As for Thousand Sons their issue is that they're really, really wierd. Their basic infantry isnt in it to bring ruination or to kill everyone, they're not in it at all. They're just dust in power armor. Its hard to devise rules for an army of mindless, psychically impregnanted automatons and not have them be exactly like Necrons from a gameplay standpoint.

Max Jet
29-03-2010, 19:49
The Dark Angel matter is easily explained.
Dark Angels are just the perfect testing ground for the upcomming next Marine Codex. Thus they have the possibility to test the new direction and get everything right.
Blood Angels and Space Wolves just have too many specialties, the Dark Angels however work perfectly as the test Codex so that everything about their poster boy Codex will be all right.

Spider-pope
29-03-2010, 19:54
I'd say its a tie between Chaos Dwarfs and Dark Eldar. Both haven't been updated in years but unlike Squats neither have been officially dropped either.

Instead its worse, year after year they get tiny snippets of hints of rumours that maybe, just maybe they will be allowed to rejoin the children downstairs. But no, the rumours prove to be just rumours and they remain in the attic, gnawing on their bucket of fishheads and gently crying out "if only our parents loved us...if only..."

Alessander
29-03-2010, 21:11
on Specialist Games: I emailed Gav Thorpe about it, here's his reply from last october:

The specialist games offer a different gaming fix compared to the mass battle, '28mm' core games. Some players like them because they can take a break from their regular 40K or Warhammer gaming - perhaps playing a Necromunda campaign for a few weeks, or a Blood Bowl league - and then come back to their 'main' game with renewed freshness. Others, obviously, just like the specialist games and never even play 40K or Warhammer. I'm pretty certain that one or two of the specialist games could be kept on as a going concern if handled properly, but trying to support all of them all of the time equally is resource-intensive for an uncertain reward. The 'self-contained' games (Necromunda, BFG, Blood Bowl, Gorkamorka and Mordheim) could happily be given an injection of development to get them into a fit state, and then simply left available online. Warmaster and Epic suffer a bit more from being much broader in scope - the expectation that they should include all of the armies available in the core games. That's a lot harder to maintain. What any of the games would really benefit from is a splurge of plastics investment to make the core of their miniature ranges available and once done, they don't need revisiting. On the whole, GW's forecasting and production control is much better than it used to be, so there's no reason why there would be a return to the problem of large specialist game overstock.

But, a new frame of plastic for a specialist game is one less for Warhammer, LoTR or $0K (sic) at the end of the day... Sometimes you just can't fight economics.

Thanks for your interest, best of luck with the BFG gaming,

GAV

Sunfang
29-03-2010, 21:22
on Specialist Games: I emailed Gav Thorpe about it, here's his reply from last october:

The specialist games offer a different gaming fix compared to the mass battle, '28mm' core games. Some players like them because they can take a break from their regular 40K or Warhammer gaming - perhaps playing a Necromunda campaign for a few weeks, or a Blood Bowl league - and then come back to their 'main' game with renewed freshness. Others, obviously, just like the specialist games and never even play 40K or Warhammer. I'm pretty certain that one or two of the specialist games could be kept on as a going concern if handled properly, but trying to support all of them all of the time equally is resource-intensive for an uncertain reward. The 'self-contained' games (Necromunda, BFG, Blood Bowl, Gorkamorka and Mordheim) could happily be given an injection of development to get them into a fit state, and then simply left available online. Warmaster and Epic suffer a bit more from being much broader in scope - the expectation that they should include all of the armies available in the core games. That's a lot harder to maintain. What any of the games would really benefit from is a splurge of plastics investment to make the core of their miniature ranges available and once done, they don't need revisiting. On the whole, GW's forecasting and production control is much better than it used to be, so there's no reason why there would be a return to the problem of large specialist game overstock.

But, a new frame of plastic for a specialist game is one less for Warhammer, LoTR or $0K (sic) at the end of the day... Sometimes you just can't fight economics.

Thanks for your interest, best of luck with the BFG gaming,

GAV

Thanks for sharing, and he is right.

too bad as far as BFG though. Always had wanted to play as part of a broader campaign.

Sildani
29-03-2010, 21:26
Gav's kind of a snarky, sarcastic, but straightforward guy... so I wonder if the "$0K" was a really a typo on his part, or an insinuation.

Sunfang
29-03-2010, 21:35
Insinuation for sure.

Realized in my last post I failed for my nominee as the "ginger child."

My votes DE or Necrons, although I personally could care less if terminator goes away. probably time for a new approach with DE as well. Combined codex with DE & Eldar with seperate army lists. Take more of a pirate approach with DE...I dont know...just thinking out loud.

Ironmonger
29-03-2010, 21:36
What is wrong with being red haired?

Seconded.:eyebrows:

As far as the unloved masses you mentioned... SHEESH! You listed half of the GW product line!;) I basically agree with you line of reasoning about the sex/drugs/rock & roll armies. They came into being at the same time as the others, when there was both more humour and more...eh...'adult-'themed stuff in the 40k universe. Since then the stuff that could be sanitized was ('Blood for the Blod God?!' That's really just ketchup!), and the rest seems to have been relegated to 'We'll call them decadent, but not have to explain what it means to the kiddies...'

As for the Squats... the employees at GW must have just been incredibly DENSE to 'not be able to come up with a theme... to do them justice...':wtf: Just laziness, lack of creativity, or both. Same goes for LatD, Genestealers, Arbites, etc. LAME.

The WH/Ecclesiarchy... I have no idea why these aren't getting love:confused:

Prokrustes
29-03-2010, 23:13
What is wrong with being red haired?

Well..in medieval times alot, but personally I do not have any problems with red haired ppl or step children or whatever. I actually took the expression from this boards under the assumption that "red haired step child" is some sort of accepted standing expression..:shifty: But you can still ask Eric Cartman whats wrong with being red-haired :D

Intriguing answers so far...I must say reading through other threads I expected some totally different factions to be named...very interesting.

TheShadowCow
29-03-2010, 23:41
What is wrong with being red haired?

Plenty, if by "wrong" you mean "awesome"... :p



I can't agree on the Slaanesh neglect on the part of the OP though. He does get a look-in here and there, as does Tzeentch (indeed, Tzeentch is the neglected one as far as Daemons of Chaos goes). I wouldn't even say that Slaanesh is the "Chaos God for adults" either - he's no more horrifying and/or squicky than Nurgle or Tzeentch (when Tzeentch is done properly).

Dark Eldar would get my vote as far as "what is available now" is concerned. Up until half way through 3rd Ed, they got quite a lot of attention (multiple WD-based updates and revisions, new kit here and there, some FW love) and then it just sort of... stopped.

Necrons, Daemon Hunters and Witch Hunters look to be going that way now as well, although rumours of a new Necron book could out them from that list.

MEPHISTONSRAGE
30-03-2010, 03:59
20 years ago, gW was a small time operation that was trying to be a form of roleplaying game, that actually had a pretty good rules set for massed fantasy battle. The 40k aspect was sort of a Gurps set of rules for the future. It was a niche product, and the people wh played it were usually int heir late teens, early 20's at a minimum.
Slaneesh wasn't over the top with the sensuality, but it was there. Some of the models showed boobs, and Dr Frankenfurter type drag clothing. The book Inquisitor had some over the top imagery as well. Dark Eldar with their dark tortuous ways, and the abilty to skin a man and leave him alive, with his bowels hooked and held out all around the room at odd angles. And the fact taht they feed off of the psychic screams of others fear and pain. Dark stuff. Very dark stuff.
Tzeentch needs more fleshing out, but I think it should have more to do with they have more Librarians and more psychic powers. Their daemons were the most lackluster of the group. But the books portray them as thinkers and still rather detached from how they worship chaos. And punish those that wronged them.
I'm still reading Thousand Sons, and can't find a Prospero Burns yet, but will read it soon enough.
The Inquisition is rather dark as well, as they condemn millions to death rather than allow a small amount of chaos taint infect a planet. Or a tyranid infestation.
NEcrons has always been a rather dry army to me. Not alot to involve me either intellectually or emotionally. though i still think they need some love as well. I know how I have felt for want of a new Codex and can empathize with others over their favorite armies.

Loki73
30-03-2010, 04:06
Squats.

Nothing says red-headed step-child like getting wiped from the galaxy......


LOL this needs to be sigged!

Setesh
30-03-2010, 04:47
The OP wasn't implying red hair is bad per se defensivo, he was using an expression...*facepalm*

Anyway,

Slaanesh is pretty neglected these days because GW is torn between trying to have respectable, adult fluff and also selling to a million kids and their bewildered parents. I would love to see their parents come in to a store and see a slaaneshi baneblade with a giant phallus cannon...
Its a shame, I remember realm of chaos [re-read it the other day] and I feel like alot has been lost in trying to market to kids rather than the smaller adult demographic. But thats expansion.

The REAL red-headed stepchild however has got to be the necrons. Where is the fluff? Slim. Alot unexplained. Model range? 2. [or thereabouts ;) ] Things really need fleshing out in the next codex. C'tan? Too much mystery can be a bad thing. But then again, I'd like the hive mind to be defined and explained properly too which most people dont give a monkeys about.

SandQueen
30-03-2010, 08:42
The REAL red-headed stepchild however has got to be the necrons. Where is the fluff? Slim. Alot unexplained. Model range? 2. [or thereabouts ;) ] Things really need fleshing out in the next codex. C'tan? Too much mystery can be a bad thing. But then again, I'd like the hive mind to be defined and explained properly too which most people dont give a monkeys about.

I'd like more on the Necrons too. They're supposed to be the mortal foes of my codex and yet I as a player know jack about them other than "they're old, they work for wacky gods, and they dont like life as we know it." That isnt much to go on when you're talking galactic foes.

Firmlog
30-03-2010, 09:26
Dark Angels have fallen (lol) to be the most redheaded stepchild army from GW.

THey once held a preeminence among all chapters, clean and honorable. They Chaired the greatest ceremony in all the universe, at the head of all other space marine chapters. Now the quietly skulk in the dark. Each passing Milena gaining deeper and darker secrets. They can't even use the most current wargear or have a complete selection of vehicles.

As the army who used to have more terminators than any other chapter, they can now barely field as many. And spacewolves and a few other chapters seem to continually pull more terminator armor out of their ace.

Of all the armies, having been redone and gotten more plastic, I'd have to say that the DA plastic is the weakest of all, having only an occasional Robed marine. Or feathers attached to models, compare that to Guard, SW, BA, Orks etc... who not only got new better models but also up to many new units.

How about DA for the "WEAKEST" Special characters in any army since the Eldar codex.

Thanatos_elNyx
30-03-2010, 09:34
Necrons


What is wrong with being red haired?

Nothing if you are a girl (i.e. See Laura Prepon, Isla Fisher, Christina Hendricks, Felicia Day, Simone Simons, etc) :D

Everything if you are a dude (i.e. Chris Evans, nuff said)

But the concept is borderline racist since Red Hair is considered a Celtic thing, so hating Red Heads is like hating Scottish or Irish people.

Firmlog
30-03-2010, 09:53
Necrons



Nothing if you are a girl (i.e. See Laura Prepon, Isla Fisher, Christina Hendricks, Felicia Day, Simone Simons, etc) :D

Everything if you are a dude (i.e. Chris Evans, nuff said)

But the concept is borderline racist since Red Hair is considered a Celtic thing, so hating Red Heads is like hating Scottish or Irish people.

Oh, you forgot Carrot Top. LOL

It wasn't till you said that. Being said, Hispanics (rarely) and Asians (extremely rarely) and most of western europe can have shades of red hair.

Oh, you forgot Carrot Top. LOL

Now no more comment on the discrimination, ideas I see that flaming extensively, lets be back on topic of the armies, and I will edit to keep from getting locked.

And I love redhair... on women. ;)

DeviantApostle
30-03-2010, 10:27
Ok, if you're going to play the Squats card, then I'll trump with Zoats. I keep hoping with every Tyranid release that they will be back so that I may mock them once more.

If you want to refine the criteria to armies that are supported, I have to admit that Tzeench and Slaanesh have seen an upsurge of support. Unfortunately, creating a real Slaanesh army is likely to get you banned from GW stores (happened in my area because of one dude's Daemon Prince).

Harlequins also lost their own codex, a great tradgedy. At least their still around.

Dark Angels are the obvious losers of the Space Marine books, hopefully they'll be done right for 5th.

Of all, tho, Dark Eldar win this particular prize.

Lord-Caerolion
30-03-2010, 11:31
Ok, if you're going to play the Squats card, then I'll trump with Zoats. I keep hoping with every Tyranid release that they will be back so that I may mock them once more.

Zoats got mentioned in the 4th Ed Tyranids codex as their own Hive Fleet, so they've gotten acknowledged relatively recently. Sorry, but Zoats don't trump Squats.

DeviantApostle
30-03-2010, 11:40
Squats have a few references themselves and Zoats were eliminated looooong before Squats got the heave-ho. Zoats do trump Squats.

Tourniquet
30-03-2010, 13:47
The REAL red-headed stepchild however has got to be the necrons. Where is the fluff? Slim. Alot unexplained. Model range? 2. [or thereabouts ;) ] Things really need fleshing out in the next codex. C'tan? Too much mystery can be a bad thing. But then again, I'd like the hive mind to be defined and explained properly too which most people dont give a monkeys about.

Wait. So necrons are like Dark Eldar, only, necrons are newer
Got it

Sorry my vote goes
Top: Dark Eldar
Second: Necrons
Third: Dark Angels/Inquisition Forces

Firmlog
30-03-2010, 19:14
Hold up I think you have to something to be relegated to the past. Zoats were a line entry in a book, I don't know if they had models, and certainly don't know if they had models. The squats were developed into something. They were an army, the comparisons should be squats, genestealer cults, mutant guard armies.

Of course they did come out with mutant guard armies in the sista's codex. But Squats and Genestealer cults both fell the wayside when 2nd came out. According to GW, they have tried to reinvent squats in order to bring them back but has so far been unable to.

Dark eldar are good, with Dark Angels, just look at the similarities. They both have Dark in their name. THey both had a "codex update" not a real codex, in late 3rd. ed.

Shipmonkey
30-03-2010, 19:30
Zoats got mentioned in the 4th Ed Tyranids codex as their own Hive Fleet, so they've gotten acknowledged relatively recently. Sorry, but Zoats don't trump Squats.

The Squats got a mention in the 5th Ed 'Nid as did Hive Fleet Colossus, so we can say they are even.

Sir_Turalyon
30-03-2010, 19:56
Dark Angels problem is that their theme does not provide easy tabletop advantage. Most chapters differ from codex primarily in way they fight, in case of Dark Agels primary difference is in chapter organization and politics. Their uniqness lies in reasons why they fight and whom they chose to fight and in shuffling some units everybody has (bikes, veterans, terminators) between companies. Unlike Blood Angels (codex marines with flaw resulting in assault inclinations and uber-killy Death Company) there is no easy recipe to turn this background into special climatic rules. Their perhaps strongest playable trait is unyielding dedication, but throwing fearless or stubborn aroud does not seem enough to make a codex, so developers circle around trying to find them some cool rules that can be justified by fluff (troop plasma cannons,doublewing synergy etc).

TheDilz
30-03-2010, 21:15
Blood Angels and Space Wolves as seperate entities. Those resources could have been funnelled into something a lot more useful like a DE update / Necron update.

Anyone who thinks the designers/ anyone who actually CARES about the game part of the hobby is in charge of what gets made and when is sorely mistaken.

It is a marketting world out there my friends.

The almighty dollar rules here.

And the bottom line is: space marines sell. Necrons/DE/Squats couldnt equal SM sales even if combined. Therefore its a matter of resource to profit margin... there is no priority to balancing the game codexes over profit margins, those resources are funneled into the big sellers.

The game balance as whole loses out, but GW profit margins win each time a new SM codex is churned out.

Long gone are the days of models being made because they are "fun".

Olja
30-03-2010, 21:34
Zoats, Slann, and Jakero were never really developed armies (like Hrud) so they don't count. Squats (or Demiurg) had a lot of potential. Squats got hosed.

Slaanesh is part of Chaos, and Chaos gets a lot of love. Nuff said.

Setesh
31-03-2010, 01:46
Wait. So necrons are like Dark Eldar, only, necrons are newer
Got it

Sorry my vote goes
Top: Dark Eldar
Second: Necrons
Third: Dark Angels/Inquisition Forces

newer, yes. as well fleshed out? no. As many sculpts? no.

IcedAnimals
31-03-2010, 02:52
Slaanesh isnt a red haired step child. You can do plenty with them in the ways of modelling and themes. You dont NEED to put huge tracks of land on your dreadnaught. In fact if you did it would look really stupid. You can equate the unnerving sexuality and depravity of Slaanesh very well without resorting to obscenity.


As for Thousand Sons their issue is that they're really, really wierd. Their basic infantry isnt in it to bring ruination or to kill everyone, they're not in it at all. They're just dust in power armor. Its hard to devise rules for an army of mindless, psychically impregnanted automatons and not have them be exactly like Necrons from a gameplay standpoint.

I think you are one of the few people ive met who agree that slaanesh isn't just about sex sex and more sex. Slaanesh is 1/7th sex. That it. I would love for them to remove boobs from most of their models. Daemonettes and the KoS are all you need. Things like noise marines and over indulgence are great. I have a Slaanesh army that I just started this year. And it has all 7 aspects.