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Jayden63
29-03-2010, 22:07
Ok, so we all know that 40K is somewhat story based. Idealy unless your into it for the single purpose of pushing little plastic men around and rolling dice, there is supposed to be a backstory of each battle in there somewhere. Its why we use painted models, why basing is somewhat important, why decorative terrain on dedicated tables help pull you into the game etc.

This is the illusion that is present, its something that helps make the game more than numbers vs. numbers.

But there is so much out there (rule wise, model wise etc.) that breaks the illusion. Even when taken with a grain of salt, some things just stick wrong.

The most current illusion breaker for me is the Baal Predator. For 20 years the Predator has been the main battle tank of the SM force. Its a tracked armored vehicle that sports some of the strongest guns known to the Imperium.

Yet in the last game I saw, after the first turn of movement, this tracked 65 ton vehicle had covered more ground than an Ork Trukk which is nothing more than a metal scrap surrounding a large engine.

WTF. Completely broke the illusion for me. That game was nothing more than a numbers game after that. I think I would have thrown up in my mouth if in that same game it actually had a deep striking landraider.

So what breaks the illusion for you? I suspect there will be more than one Thunderwolf cav entry.

Chiron
29-03-2010, 22:13
As soon as people start banging on about statistics and probability during the battle this happens (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqDavOnPp6M&feature=related)

I happily charge my guard into combat not because of the statistics that show more dice = good but because its awesome, a wave of men screaming defiance and throwing themselves at the superhuman enemy is epic

Sykorax
29-03-2010, 22:16
Avatar dropping to minor small arms fire. Bolters can possibly do some damage with their explosive rounds, but as a tower of molten metal lasguns should do nothing except warm him up a bit more.

Scout move turboboost + first turn move ravenwing bikes in a recent game was just unreal as well. These things are now somehow faster than any eldar skimmers or jetbikes!

Lash is pretty funny as well (I'll admit I use it). If the sorc has the power to move a several ton carnifex or unit of terminators, why not just drop it on top of another unit to kill them both? Why can't tanks be moved? Just too much :wtf:

GrogDaTyrant
29-03-2010, 22:18
I suspect there will be more than one Thunderwolf cav entry.

Well then let me be the first. Thunderwolf Cavalry wouldn't break the illusion so much for me, if it wasn't for the fact that you're effectively just using the stats for the wolf. When you really look at the stats, and how upgrades for the unit play off them, the wolf is the one riding the marine and wielding the thunder-hammers, lightning claws, frost-axes, etc.

Another 'illusion-breaker' for me, is Strength D weapons in Apoc. Not the concept of them, or their ability to 'vaporize' almost anything. But rather the ease of which they blow through colossal tanks, sky-scraper sized gargantuan creatures, and infantry... Until it's aimed at a unit of Stormshield Assault Terminators and only kills 1 in 3... ? IMO the Strength D should have been quite a bit more expensive, fieldable by every army (not just mostly Imperial and Eldar), and ignore invuln saves.

Ozendorph
29-03-2010, 22:18
I'd say the main "illusion breaker" for me is rule exploitation (and the poorly written rules that allow for it). Intermingled squads giving each other a cover save, wound allocation wizardry, assaulting through gaps in an enemy squad to hit another, that sort of thing.

When you or your opponent has to apologize for maneuvers with something sheepish like "Yeah, I know it's stupid and makes no sense, but that's the rule. Hopefully they'll change it in 6th!" you know things are going super.

3 0f 6
29-03-2010, 22:19
As soon as people start banging on about statistics and probability during the battle this happens (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqDavOnPp6M&feature=related)

I happily charge my guard into combat not because of the statistics that show more dice = good but because its awesome, a wave of men screaming defiance and throwing themselves at the superhuman enemy is epic

Heh^

I like occasionally like to throw my entire army at my opponent in one giant close combat, can finish a game really quick too!!

nedius
29-03-2010, 22:23
I know what you mean. As a narrative/fun player myself, such things get me too.

However, what gets me more is knowing that these things are not done to try and enhance the fluff, but to sell more models. you just know that the reason they created this tank, even if points-wise it is expensive, is so you'll buy it.

Thommy H
29-03-2010, 22:54
Scout move turboboost + first turn move ravenwing bikes in a recent game was just unreal as well. These things are now somehow faster than any eldar skimmers or jetbikes!


Scout represents getting into position before the rest of the armies even get in the vicinity of one another. Scouting models are meant to be outriders moving ahead of the rest of your army - that initial move is supposed to be happening as everybody else deploys, not literally at the start of turn 1.

A lot of the things in this thread don't really cause you to lose your suspension of disbelief when you actually think about what they're supposed to represent. For example, the Baal Predator is Fast because the Blood Angels are stupid enough to slap massive overcharged engines to the back of it - it doesn't just happen to be dead nippy.

Jayden63
30-03-2010, 00:07
I also forgot to mention Thunderhammers. I can't stand the look of them, I get the added effect of stunned/reduced initiative/powerweapon. But how the heck does that double your strength. I understand how a power fist/power claw could double your strength, its a massive powered gauntlet. The Thunderhammer is just a stick with a fancy head on it. All the power lines and stuff could explain the added effects but not the double strength part. At least not to me anyway.

Jayden63
30-03-2010, 00:09
A lot of the things in this thread don't really cause you to lose your suspension of disbelief when you actually think about what they're supposed to represent. For example, the Baal Predator is Fast because the Blood Angels are stupid enough to slap massive overcharged engines to the back of it - it doesn't just happen to be dead nippy.

65 Tons of tracked heavy/thick metal plating, machinery, and weaponry does not move at the same speed as a racing truck. No matter how big of an engine you put on it, or however loose you play with the laws of physics.

SandQueen
30-03-2010, 00:20
Ive had some issues with Skimmers, particularly Vypers.

In some of the art Vypers are depicted soaring through the air, flitting past terrain, and out maneuvering most things limited to the ground. So how is it that it can be rammed by something like a Land Raider? Other than the Land Raider being piloted by the Dukes of Hazard I cannot think of how, even with an effective hill to fly off of, could take out a Vyper by ramming it.

Axis
30-03-2010, 00:41
65 Tons of tracked heavy/thick metal plating, machinery, and weaponry does not move at the same speed as a racing truck. No matter how big of an engine you put on it, or however loose you play with the laws of physics.

I don't really see the problem. You can explain it with so many different factors. Better engine, more reckless drivers (though orks are rather reckless... still being reckless can cause slowness... doing circle work or something), unreliability of trukks mechanical parts or the orks in general. There are lots of these issues in 40k because they game is built into 6" blocks. The mechanics don't have the flexibility to account for 1/2 way points. In fantasy there are different move values so you see things like elven steeds going faster than normal horsies. It does get complicated. Better? Maybe, maybe not. So yes, somethings aren't quite right but you do get simplicity and ease of play.

The same logic should have you annoyed that a land raider moves the same speed as a rhino. Or that space marines move as slow as guardsmen.

If you think the baal predators speed is the deal breaker then you really should have made the conclusion at the very start.

Xyrex
30-03-2010, 00:43
65 Tons of tracked heavy/thick metal plating, machinery, and weaponry does not move at the same speed as a racing truck. No matter how big of an engine you put on it, or however loose you play with the laws of physics.

Laws of physics dont explain 12 foot tall magma people do they?

Point is, some things in 40k dont (ok, just about everything) make any sense. :shifty:
But heres one: a baneblade shoots at a SM squad and all 5 of them make their 6+ cover saves... Its like :wtf: a razor wire saved you from one of the most powerful explosions known to man:confused:

Or same thing with a previous IG codex and the medals giving u an invul save\

I also have some trouble understanding just how you get run over by a tank. Cant you just jump UNDER IT and wait till it passes or walk sideways, THEN hit it?:eyebrows:

I guess some things in 40k just aren't explainable, no point about it.

Sunfang
30-03-2010, 01:02
mmm I also hate math-hammer, it reduces the game to pointless numbers and averages which is boring to me.

What destroys my "suspension of disbelief" are special characters. In the universe of countless billions...this dude shows up to every skirmish and somehow applies his ability with a flamer and melta to an entire army. Game wise I just dont see the point in a character ripping apart a Leman russ with his bare hands or besting a Carnifex, let alone an Avatar. These are the things that drive me nutty and destroy the IP, for me. Lets face it, 40k is a series of skirmishes in a war or small conflicts on abandoned spots in space.

It would be best to keep special characters as narrative engines instead of what is currently going on. Not to mention what is has done to the lore and the timeline. Abbadon leading a black crusade is awesome when you have players affecting a total campaign over the course of a few months. Having him play in each conflict on every board...just dosnt make sense.

EmperorEternalXIX
30-03-2010, 01:05
People who complain about the abilities of the latest codex usually break my immersion.

Xarian
30-03-2010, 01:12
Its like :wtf: a razor wire saved you from one of the most powerful explosions known to man:confused:

Or same thing with a previous IG codex and the medals giving u an invul save\

I also have some trouble understanding just how you get run over by a tank. Cant you just jump UNDER IT and wait till it passes or walk sideways, THEN hit it?:eyebrows:

On your points here:
Saving with poor cover saves doesn't just represent hitting the cover, deflecting the shots - it can also represent aiming at the wrong location. In this case, however, you can probably rationalize it by saying that the barbed wire deflected the shrapnel from the exploding shell (which seems entirely reasonable to me).

With the medals, it wasn't so much a 'my medal deflects the blast' thing, but more of a 'look how lucky and/or awesome I am' thing.

Also, there's a reason that it's called "Death or Glory" - and a reason why you can opt to simply move out of the way (and attack the tank on your next turn).

e2055261
30-03-2010, 01:38
Is the OP suggesting that 40k might not be that realistic? The man's mad. It's a perfect game with no idiosyncracies. I love it!

The Orange
30-03-2010, 02:09
65 Tons of tracked heavy/thick metal plating, machinery, and weaponry does not move at the same speed as a racing truck. No matter how big of an engine you put on it, or however loose you play with the laws of physics.

Oh of course, nothing that heavy could possibly go fast.
http://www.marchfield.org/sr71a.htm

Speed is entirely about light weight.
http://www.thescooterguys.com/Puch%20Moped.jpg

Chiron
30-03-2010, 02:18
Oh of course, nothing that heavy could possibly go fast

Tanks are not planes

And a tank can get up to around 80mph off road from what I remember, this is without a heap of nitro(glycerne? it is 40k after all) in the fuel

Voss
30-03-2010, 02:30
Ok, so we all know that 40K is somewhat story based. Idealy unless your into it for the single purpose of pushing little plastic men around and rolling dice, there is supposed to be a backstory of each battle in there somewhere. Its why we use painted models, why basing is somewhat important, why decorative terrain on dedicated tables help pull you into the game etc..

Sorry... but no. I'm in it for the tactics and strategy, the social aspect and the competition of trying to win a game, or at least have fun losing. I like painted models because I enjoy engaging a different part of my brain and having an artistic break from the daily grind. Its a step up from chess or a boardgame because it has more elements, but it is still a game involving, yes, little plastic men and rolling dice.

So sorry, there is no illusion to be broken, no escapism. I enjoy the game for being a more complex game with a social aspect and the artistic/modelling aspects of the hobby. I see no reason to pretend there is a story or universe attached- the background is amusing and is sometimes enjoyable to read in its own right, but it has zero effect on the games I play.

In much the same way, fantasy/sci-fi novels & movies are a good way to unwind and relax, but there isn't any illusion there- I'm perfectly aware I'm reading or watching a story. It doesn't make any demands, hence its relaxing, but never a convincing illusion.

ehlijen
30-03-2010, 02:37
Tanks are not planes

And a tank can get up to around 80mph off road from what I remember, this is without a heap of nitro(glycerne? it is 40k after all) in the fuel

Tank speed is limited by the chassis and crew tolerance limits, not by the engine power. Most modern battle tanks can reach about 80 kph road speed, some APCs and IFVs probably more than that (and the baal is meant to be more in line with those than MBTs like the Russ), but their engine could theoretically allow for much more than that. The engine has a lot of extra strenght to allow rapid acceleration at turning to increase maneuvarability at slow speeds and to enable the tank to go up slopes with undiminished speed.

So the blood angels just took out the govenours of their engines. In the previous codex the danger of that was shown through a chance of immobilistation, I'm not sure why that was taken out. I thought it was a nice fitting touch.

Also, Trucks can still outrun them. They are fast (they are, right?) like the baal but still have access to red paint jobs. Red's fasta then...erm red.

Axis
30-03-2010, 02:37
Sorry... but no. I'm in it for the tactics and strategy, the social aspect and the competition of trying to win a game, or at least have fun losing. I like painted models because I enjoy engaging a different part of my brain and having an artistic break from the daily grind. Its a step up from chess or a boardgame because it has more elements, but it is still a game involving, yes, little plastic men and rolling dice.

So sorry, there is no illusion to be broken, no escapism. I enjoy the game for being a more complex game with a social aspect and the artistic/modelling aspects of the hobby. I see no reason to pretend there is a story or universe attached- the background is amusing and is sometimes enjoyable to read in its own right, but it has zero effect on the games I play.

In much the same way, fantasy/sci-fi novels & movies are a good way to unwind and relax, but there isn't any illusion there- I'm perfectly aware I'm reading or watching a story. It doesn't make any demands, hence its relaxing, but never a convincing illusion.

But some, indeed a fair few, do go in for the story not just the game.

Tourniquet
30-03-2010, 03:28
I remember seeing this thing about a form of english battle tank predominantly used int he Faulklands that can get up to some incredible speeds and still fire.

If we can do it now, well, with 39,000 years of technology im sure they can do it to a heavy battle tank

Xyrex
30-03-2010, 03:49
On your points here:
Saving with poor cover saves doesn't just represent hitting the cover, deflecting the shots - it can also represent aiming at the wrong location. In this case, however, you can probably rationalize it by saying that the barbed wire deflected the shrapnel from the exploding shell (which seems entirely reasonable to me).

With the medals, it wasn't so much a 'my medal deflects the blast' thing, but more of a 'look how lucky and/or awesome I am' thing.

Also, there's a reason that it's called "Death or Glory" - and a reason why you can opt to simply move out of the way (and attack the tank on your next turn).

No matter how lucky you are, you cant survive a baneblade... Not with a medal, and defenitey not with a barbed wire... Its not shrapnel, its total anihalation!

enigma-96
30-03-2010, 04:03
Seriously if this game wasn't (Originally anways) so flavourful and engrossing I wouldn't be playing it still since it isn't anywhere near a great game, it's okay I'll give it that but many many other games do a much better job with 50% less BS to boot.

The stuff that breaks the illusion for me? Is usually the stuff that takes it too far, yes people it's sci-fi but even sci-fi has limits, unique of course to each sci-fi universe that is, but limits none the less. Would I be *********** pissed and feel disillusioned if Whorf punched a man's head off in one shot or ripped his way through a steel door with nothing but his bare hands? Yes, yes I would, Would I also be disillusioned and completely pissed off if someone Deepstriked a Landraider onto the field, Charged me with a marine riding a Wolf, Shot me with an alien that apparently wiped out a whole craftworld but can't survive more than 3 krak missiles? Oh yeah I most certainly would. It's one thing for codexes to follow the rule of cool, the whole universe was designed with this principle in mind, but it's an entirely different once they start ******** over their own established fluff for the sake of that cool.

Arguably though the thing that bugs me the most and almost always ruins the feel of my game is Special Characters. Now I don't mind facing them all the time, I really don't, I just pretend that that's because it's part of an extended campaign and they're pulling the "We'll be back to fight again mwhahahahahah." But I hate it how Special characters are almost invariably stuck in Limbo, I.E. their either TOO POWERFUL for what they are meant to be or their TOO WEAK because the game designers wanted to keep them playable in the tiny 40k setting.
Example: Mephiston, He is WAY TOO POWERFUL for what he is meant to be, but conversely if they wanted to showcase him (And subsequently later SC's to follow) as being this uber bad ass who could take out tanks with the slice of his sword, and all the other BS he can do, then they should have upped his power way more than it is now and made him cost a ton more, thus making him (And later SC's) something to be totally feared and reasonable because you would have the expectation that he was MEANT to be like that. As it stands he isn't reasonable either way.

*edit RP nerd here I'm almost certain those medals worked in much the same way certain medals worked in Dark Heresy or Inquisitor, they had energy fields inlaid within them and were decorated as military honours, thus appearance wise they looked like a medal of distinguish but on the inside they could project an energy field that was capable of resisting even direct lascannon shots...grumble grumble *********** DM and his Officers' Ball grumble grumble grumble.

Seville
30-03-2010, 06:41
Sorry... but no. I'm in it for the tactics and strategy, the social aspect and the competition of trying to win a game, or at least have fun losing. I like painted models because I enjoy engaging a different part of my brain and having an artistic break from the daily grind. Its a step up from chess or a boardgame because it has more elements, but it is still a game involving, yes, little plastic men and rolling dice.

So sorry, there is no illusion to be broken, no escapism. I enjoy the game for being a more complex game with a social aspect and the artistic/modelling aspects of the hobby. I see no reason to pretend there is a story or universe attached- the background is amusing and is sometimes enjoyable to read in its own right, but it has zero effect on the games I play.

In much the same way, fantasy/sci-fi novels & movies are a good way to unwind and relax, but there isn't any illusion there- I'm perfectly aware I'm reading or watching a story. It doesn't make any demands, hence its relaxing, but never a convincing illusion.

Drop the snotty tone and append "in my opinion" to the end of each of your sentences and you would have a much better post.

The Orange
30-03-2010, 07:42
Tanks are not planes
The point is technology trumps weight. Yes it's a tank, that doesn't mean there isn't technology out there to make it go faster then a ramshackle truck hammered together by guys who only know how to do what they do because it's encoded in their genes.

And at the end 40k =/= realism. For the most part the game runs on base 6" (shoots 48"/24"/18", moves 24'/12"/6', etc.). How realistic is it that most armies jump-pack/winged units move at the exactly same speed?

Yea that's some darn wacky stuff that goes on (stargods being terend into mewlings) but there's little to no way to eliminate all oversights. It's a game, have fun with it. As for SC's yea their not one of GWs best track records, what more is there to say? GW isn't perfect.

Tenken
30-03-2010, 07:51
How skimmers "hop" around the battlefield. I hate that. Especially for the valk/vendetta, which probably needs some sort of runway to get airborne. With the eldar and tau anti-grav tanks it's at least somewhat believable they'd set down for a stable firing platform, or to let troops out, but with the valk it's just like:wtf:

Thud
30-03-2010, 07:53
What's breaking the illusion for me is people constantly pointing out things that are breaking the illusion.

Seriously, though, I'm more interested in game balance. If they have to do some unlikely equivalents here and there, I'm cool with it. I'm more annoyed with a single Tau Fire Warrior taking on the entire universe, and winning, in a novel. ;)

Lord-Caerolion
30-03-2010, 07:57
How skimmers "hop" around the battlefield. I hate that. Especially for the valk/vendetta, which probably needs some sort of runway to get airborne. With the eldar and tau anti-grav tanks it's at least somewhat believable they'd set down for a stable firing platform, or to let troops out, but with the valk it's just like:wtf:

Nope, Valks are VTOL. I do disagree with the "hopping" thing with Skimmers.

GrogDaTyrant
30-03-2010, 08:50
Actually, here's a big one for me as an Ork player. The defensive weaponry being Str 4 or under makes something *remotely* close to sense for some armies. But with Orks the whole 'Thou Shalt Not shoot more than 1 weapon when moving 6 inches' is pretty... stupid. If the whole bit about why the hell would firing an extra weapon or 3 matter (even in game-balance) when you're already BS 2, there's also the problem that moving and firing only 1 weapon (due to a distinct lack of defensive weapons) just doesn't seem logical or in character with the army. I see the movement restrictions on how many guns can be fired, and defensive weaponry rulings, for 5th ed being focused too much on specific armies. For Orks, it just doesn't make sense.

Petay1985
30-03-2010, 12:27
For me its when armies don't represent their fluff, or armies contain little fluff to justify their composition.
It just ruins it for me if armies aren't themed or don't match their background.

Bunnahabhain
30-03-2010, 13:01
Eternal warrior on anything that isn't a daemon or similar- no matter how tough that marine thinks they are, a demolisher shell pulps them if it hits...

About 50% of the vehicle rules. I can rationalise about half at any given time, and then the rest just make no sense...

Lack of consistent reaction mechanics. Some armies get to try and stop psychic powers, so don't. Some get overwatch type things ( inq + mystics) some don't.
It's the why do some get them, not all, that is the illusion breaker.

Deetwo
30-03-2010, 13:04
I have no illusions to be broken about 40k.

What does irk me to no end though, is fluff fanatics.
Fluff is a source if inspiration, not restriction. It seems obvious to me that the backstory is purposefully riddled with huge gaping holes so people can make up their own stories if they want to... So it can never be the strict guideline many people wish it was.
Take Special Characters for instance and the argument of the games being too small skirmishes. You have to realize that a 40k game is only a representation.. you could think of it as a small and crucial part of a larger campaign and force.

I am quite surprised nobody has mentioned Bloodfists in this thread yet... :)

Hunger
30-03-2010, 13:14
What destroys my "suspension of disbelief" are special characters. In the universe of countless billions...this dude shows up to every skirmish and somehow applies his ability with a flamer and melta to an entire army. Game wise I just dont see the point in a character ripping apart a Leman russ with his bare hands or besting a Carnifex, let alone an Avatar. These are the things that drive me nutty and destroy the IP, for me. Lets face it, 40k is a series of skirmishes in a war or small conflicts on abandoned spots in space.

It would be best to keep special characters as narrative engines instead of what is currently going on. Not to mention what is has done to the lore and the timeline. Abbadon leading a black crusade is awesome when you have players affecting a total campaign over the course of a few months. Having him play in each conflict on every board...just dosnt make sense.

This gets my goat too - overuse of special characters, as well as the overuse of unfluffy armies.

Having 4 veteran squads with 4 meltaguns in every game you play is so dull and doesn't represent the way the army should play in the majority of games. I get so sick of facing the same unit spammed repeatedly in the list and seeing the same combos of the most powerful stuff in every game.

I would not wish to limit the army lists to prevent this, because there is a place for these lists in special missions, plot-developing battles in campaigns etc, but I just wish that players would put some more imagination into their list selection and field some interesting stuff for a change.

In short it is boring power-players that ruin the illusion for me. Would it kill you to include a sub-optimal unit in your army FFS?

Scythe
30-03-2010, 13:40
Quite some things. One of the mayor ones for me:

The tactical marine gets charged and gets 1 attack. The space wolf tactical marine gets charged and gets 3 attacks. What? No, really, :wtf:

Of course, there are also those man-sized special characters with T6 or S6, marines riding wolves (or riding bikes on the battlefield in the first place), and some others.


Eternal warrior on anything that isn't a daemon or similar- no matter how tough that marine thinks they are, a demolisher shell pulps them if it hits...


This is also a big one for me. Eternal warrior is a bad, unrealistic rule that should be removed altogether imho.

GuyLeCheval
30-03-2010, 13:49
Like someone else has already said, realism is as far away from 40k as from Star Wars... Don't forget this is still sci-fic.

Now talk about ingame rule issues...

sliganian
30-03-2010, 13:55
I'll leave this message and my signature line here......

GrimZAG
30-03-2010, 13:56
Nothing breaks the illusion for me. The game is all one big illusion. Why should it have limits?

enigma-96
30-03-2010, 20:22
Nothing breaks the illusion for me. The game is all one big illusion. Why should it have limits?

I point you to my previous Whorf analogy for a more amusing image, but anyways, ALL Sci-Fi has limits, and ALL Sci-Fi has realism it is only the degree in which they differ where the differences lie. For instance, was Star Wars incredibly realistic? No but that doesn't mean all of a sudden Luke can wave his hand and wipe out the entire Empire fleet (It would take many hand waves to pull that off ;) ) because it was established in that universe that Jedi were not that powerful. The same applies to Warhammer, the fluff tells a story and within that story established limits are created, thus those limits do, and should, exist because if they didn't exist then what's to stop me from saying "Look Eldrad auto-wins any engagement I put him in because he's so powerful he could wipe out your whole species with a thought, the only reason he doesn't is because he wants to keep press interest going" See doesn't that sound ridiculous? Limits are necessary because they prevent things like Dragon Ball Z from occurring.

Anyways this isn't a strike against you personally just thought I'd comment on your question.

Thommy H
30-03-2010, 21:01
What destroys my "suspension of disbelief" are special characters. In the universe of countless billions...this dude shows up to every skirmish and somehow applies his ability with a flamer and melta to an entire army. Game wise I just dont see the point in a character ripping apart a Leman russ with his bare hands or besting a Carnifex, let alone an Avatar. These are the things that drive me nutty and destroy the IP, for me. Lets face it, 40k is a series of skirmishes in a war or small conflicts on abandoned spots in space.


But everyone must be somewhere. And while there may be only one Abbadon, Despoiler of Worlds, Chaos Warmaster of the Black Legion, Scourge of the Cadian Gate, Plague of the Gothic Sector, Instigator of the Black Crusades, there is also only one Company Master Zacharai, Warboss Redtoof, Inquisitor Steve and Bob the Fire Warrior. It's just the first is more famous. In our own world, you're less likely to encounter Bruce Willis than me because Bruce hangs out at more exclusive places - not because I'm statistically more common. There's a selection bias towards noticing "Bruce Willis" more then you'd notice "a random guy called Thomas" but he and I are equally unique, it's just that he doesn't frequent local shops and small pubs like me.

In the 41st Millennium, where you could conceivably wind up facing any foe, Abbadon is no more unlikely than any other Chaos Lord - he has to be fighting someone, after all. What are the chances that it's your army? Well, about the same as the chance that they'll face any other of the other thousands of possible enemies. There's one of everyone.

Of course, if you act like every single game played by everyone everywhere is "canon", then your complaint makes more sense. But that way lies madness, because each of the major Chapters would have many thousands of times the number of warriors they should have, amongst other things. Rather, if you find you keep facing a particular special character, find a way to work that into your army's background - keep coming up against Vulkan? I guess he must have a reason to be chasing your guys around...

jsullivanlaw
31-03-2010, 22:46
Space Wolves break the illusion for me. Not really for their rules though, more for army concept. I have to sit their and listen to my opponent cite his wargear and everything has the word "wolf" in it. When he says he has a wolflord, riding a thunderwolf, with a wolf tooth necklace, wielding wolfclaws, and accompanied by fenrisian wolves i just CANNOT stop thinking about the old Adam West Batman television series where everything Batman has has the word "bat" in it. I really try to duck playing space wolf players just because i HATE the army concept now. I can't imagine how a guy with a woof tooth necklace can hit my guys easier. It really just feels so goofy to play against space wolves.

Ianos
31-03-2010, 23:13
When people moan about their lost illusion of how the game should be according to their own personal fantasy.

I will keep my berzerkers on the objective, charge through unit gaps, intermingle squads for cover, use special characters, trick pony or balanced or Tier1 lists and i can find ALL the fluffy explanations for it too.

Anyone who disagrees can go and force someone else to play worse than he can, just because he loves his trasured fantasy or is simply too afraid to lose a game.

Master_of_Asgard
31-03-2010, 23:21
There are two things that do it for me, both of which are generally considered quite integral to their respective armies' character.

1- Horns and spikes on Chaos marines. Just picture it-

"My lord, the puny Imperial scum have been crushed. Surely we are the most feared force in the galaxy. The only thing greater than our might is our ruthlessness. We have eaten their very souls, and claimed their skulls for the blood go- hang on, what are you doing sir?"

"Oh, do you like it? I thought my armour could do with being a bit more... decorative, so I put some spikes on it! I'm going to paint them gold :D And do you like this little skull I made?:skull: It's amazing what you can do with papier mache..."

It just does not fly with me.

2- Banners on Space Marine backpacks. If you're supposed to be an elite fighting machine, the last thing you need is a bloody great pole with what is essentially a sail attached to it. How unwieldy is that gonna be?! If you have any doubt about this, try sticking a broom handle down the back of your jumper, tuck the end into your belt, and see how long you last just walking around the house and making a cup of tea.

Phew, I'm glad I got that off my chest.

Chiron
31-03-2010, 23:27
2- Banners on Space Marine backpacks. If you're supposed to be an elite fighting machine, the last thing you need is a bloody great pole with what is essentially a sail attached to it. How unwieldy is that gonna be?! If you have any doubt about this, try sticking a broom handle down the back of your jumper, tuck the end into your belt, and see how long you last just walking around the house and making a cup of tea

To be fair its very Samurai inspired

Ozendorph
31-03-2010, 23:33
To be fair its very Samurai inspired

Yeah, for a short time Aspect Warriors sported Samurai-style banners as well. Actually the Autarch still can...really cool looking imo but I can totally understand why others would disagree. Not the most pragmatic choice on a battlefield, but it certainly demonstrates bravado :)


Anyone who disagrees can go and force someone else to play worse than he can, just because he loves his trasured fantasy or is simply too afraid to lose a game.

Projecting or merely oversensitive?

Jagged
31-03-2010, 23:36
And do you like this little skull I made?:skull:

Did you say Skulls? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3JKcExmQlA)

Master_of_Asgard
01-04-2010, 00:56
Did you say Skulls? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3JKcExmQlA)

This is awesome I love it!



To be fair its very Samurai inspired

That is a fair point I guess there was some real world application/ inspiration there.

Of course this begs the question, who would win in a fight between a samurai and a space marine? Might have to save that one for another thread...

Vhalyar
01-04-2010, 01:02
2- Banners on Space Marine backpacks. If you're supposed to be an elite fighting machine, the last thing you need is a bloody great pole with what is essentially a sail attached to it. How unwieldy is that gonna be?! If you have any doubt about this, try sticking a broom handle down the back of your jumper, tuck the end into your belt, and see how long you last just walking around the house and making a cup of tea.

Phew, I'm glad I got that off my chest.

Brother Thomas will forever be remembered for proudly carrying the Chapter Banner, until the wind buffet from a crashing ork gargant was caught by the Banner and Brother Thomas was swept off his feet and carried off a cliff.

Doppleskanger
01-04-2010, 01:53
The issue of the SC's being every where at once...
Well i always think of it like this. Ok there is a huge battle going on in this planet and the board in front of me, the game I'm playing, represents the most interesting bit of the battle, when the two enemy commanders faced off over some particularly important objective(s).

Well it does for me anyway.

Personally I'm a sci fi nut but i like mine fairly hard, so the 40k universe is an entertaining place, and i love building really fluffy armies, but I never get too worried about it making any sense.

NightrawenII
01-04-2010, 09:19
I also forgot to mention Thunderhammers. I can't stand the look of them, I get the added effect of stunned/reduced initiative/powerweapon. But how the heck does that double your strength. I understand how a power fist/power claw could double your strength, its a massive powered gauntlet. The Thunderhammer is just a stick with a fancy head on it. All the power lines and stuff could explain the added effects but not the double strength part. At least not to me anyway.
*sigh*
The Strength stat has nothing to do with models lifting force, it represents the models "punch" in cc.


Or same thing with a previous IG codex and the medals giving u an invul save\
Invul represents the models luck. He isn't hit at all.


I also have some trouble understanding just how you get run over by a tank. Cant you just jump UNDER IT and wait till it passes or walk sideways, THEN hit it?:eyebrows:
Said the guy, who have never seen a tank for real.:rolleyes:

meno1
01-04-2010, 09:52
What destroys my "suspension of disbelief" are special characters. In the universe of countless billions...this dude shows up to every skirmish and somehow applies his ability with a flamer and melta to an entire army. Game wise I just dont see the point in a character ripping apart a Leman russ with his bare hands or besting a Carnifex, let alone an Avatar. These are the things that drive me nutty and destroy the IP, for me. Lets face it, 40k is a series of skirmishes in a war or small conflicts on abandoned spots in space.

It would be best to keep special characters as narrative engines instead of what is currently going on. Not to mention what is has done to the lore and the timeline. Abbadon leading a black crusade is awesome when you have players affecting a total campaign over the course of a few months. Having him play in each conflict on every board...just dosnt make sense.

Most of it is consumerism, that's what creates most of the illusion breakers I believe. On your point of SCs, it's like video games. There were many more Spartans than 117 or Masterchief, but gamers want to play as him because he is made out to be better than the rest. Same with SOCOM or COD, why play as the squad leader? Because he is often the most interesting and more skilled etc.

In the context of 40K, sure there are heaps of characters and such, and sure most of them are overpowered with unrealistic rules. But if they only existed in the fluff people would start to make their own rules and models for them. Why? Because people want to play as the impressive heros. Not everyone, but the majority do. And giving them great rules just improves the appeal.

GrimZAG
01-04-2010, 10:57
I point you to my previous Whorf analogy for a more amusing image, but anyways, ALL Sci-Fi has limits, and ALL Sci-Fi has realism it is only the degree in which they differ where the differences lie. For instance, was Star Wars incredibly realistic? No but that doesn't mean all of a sudden Luke can wave his hand and wipe out the entire Empire fleet (It would take many hand waves to pull that off ;) ) because it was established in that universe that Jedi were not that powerful. The same applies to Warhammer, the fluff tells a story and within that story established limits are created, thus those limits do, and should, exist because if they didn't exist then what's to stop me from saying "Look Eldrad auto-wins any engagement I put him in because he's so powerful he could wipe out your whole species with a thought, the only reason he doesn't is because he wants to keep press interest going" See doesn't that sound ridiculous? Limits are necessary because they prevent things like Dragon Ball Z from occurring.

Anyways this isn't a strike against you personally just thought I'd comment on your question.


Fair Call.

I suppose I've been looking at this "breaking the illusion" as from the perspective that people become over obsessed with how specific tiny details don't work. Such as how does a terminator reload? etc. I don't really care, as long as he looks cool, and I don't roll a '1' for his armour save when I charge them into something delicious...

Then again, Dragonball Z is the greatest TV show of all time. I admit that it is completely ridiculous but nevertheless it's an open world where anything is possible, which I think is pretty cool. I like places without limits because I live in a world full of them.

Master_of_Asgard
01-04-2010, 13:48
Brother Thomas will forever be remembered for proudly carrying the Chapter Banner, until the wind buffet from a crashing ork gargant was caught by the Banner and Brother Thomas was swept off his feet and carried off a cliff.

Haha the Great Bell of Terra tolls once more. Just don't let those standard bearers deploy near the assault marines any more, those air intakes are an accident waiting to happen!

Oh, and another thing! Scenic bases do look cool I'll admit, but isn't it convenient that when you are playing on a flat board which is mostly devoid of rocks, skulls, debris, etc, wherever the models choose to stop there is always plenty of handy stuff for them to pose heroically on?

Thrain
01-04-2010, 14:49
In my own mind I draw a distinction between science-fiction (something like 2001: A Space Odyssey) and science-fantasy (stuff like Star Wars and 40k). Obviously, as I stated above, I strongly believe that 40k falls into the sci-fantasy category. Even beyond that, part of the draw of 40k, to me, is its mythic qualities.

The Horus Heresy, the hallmark story of 40k, is really a sci-fi (using the term generically) retelling of the Paradise Lost story. The characters in these stories aren't just war heroes they are mythic heroes or even gods or demigods. Mephiston tearing apart a carnifex (or whatever it is I don't have the dex yet) is no more a problem to me than Perseus slaying the gorgon and using its head to destroy the kraken. They are mythic characters in a mythic story and that's what I love about it.

Sure from time to time the rules get in the way. So long as the intent of the rules is to ensure that everyone playing has a good time I'm fine with that.

Sunfang
01-04-2010, 18:41
But everyone must be somewhere. And while there may be only one Abbadon, Despoiler of Worlds, Chaos Warmaster of the Black Legion, Scourge of the Cadian Gate, Plague of the Gothic Sector, Instigator of the Black Crusades, there is also only one Company Master Zacharai, Warboss Redtoof, Inquisitor Steve and Bob the Fire Warrior. It's just the first is more famous. In our own world, you're less likely to encounter Bruce Willis than me because Bruce hangs out at more exclusive places - not because I'm statistically more common. There's a selection bias towards noticing "Bruce Willis" more then you'd notice "a random guy called Thomas" but he and I are equally unique, it's just that he doesn't frequent local shops and small pubs like me.

In the 41st Millennium, where you could conceivably wind up facing any foe, Abbadon is no more unlikely than any other Chaos Lord - he has to be fighting someone, after all. What are the chances that it's your army? Well, about the same as the chance that they'll face any other of the other thousands of possible enemies. There's one of everyone.

Of course, if you act like every single game played by everyone everywhere is "canon", then your complaint makes more sense. But that way lies madness, because each of the major Chapters would have many thousands of times the number of warriors they should have, amongst other things. Rather, if you find you keep facing a particular special character, find a way to work that into your army's background - keep coming up against Vulkan? I guess he must have a reason to be chasing your guys around...

Fair points.

The differance being that SC's are generally kitted up chaos lords or SM captains, but they generally at least with the SM characters bring extra things to the table, i.e. Vulkan, Kantor, etc. So why take a generic captain or even build your own chapter without using a stand in or counts as. It gets boring and redundant.

SC's also have cannon/fluff built into them, thats what makes them special. Taking a generic captain etc could allow players to play in a campaign and develope their own fluff etc. Instead people just rock Calgar and scream when he gets pelted to death with Las Fire.

I don't believe that every battle is cannon, although I do believe that somewhere in the timeline my skirmish is taking place.

So the other day I take my little 1500 point eldar force to my local store planning on only playing SM's as I wanted to try some stuff out. First game, Calgar, second Shriek, third Vulkan (heavily under utilized but not the point,) and finally Bjorn. One of the red shirts felt the need to come comment on each of the games I was playing with weird naratives about how Calgar etc etc where going to rid the galaxy of me blah blah and begun citing how this char did that and this char did this...looked down my lines and said "where is Yariel."

So now it turns into herohammer?

In a galaxy of countless billions, everyone knows your name. I dont buy it and I dont like it.

Sunfang
01-04-2010, 18:51
Most of it is consumerism, that's what creates most of the illusion breakers I believe. On your point of SCs, it's like video games. There were many more Spartans than 117 or Masterchief, but gamers want to play as him because he is made out to be better than the rest. Same with SOCOM or COD, why play as the squad leader? Because he is often the most interesting and more skilled etc.

In the context of 40K, sure there are heaps of characters and such, and sure most of them are overpowered with unrealistic rules. But if they only existed in the fluff people would start to make their own rules and models for them. Why? Because people want to play as the impressive heros. Not everyone, but the majority do. And giving them great rules just improves the appeal.

I completely understand that. They have always existed and playable as long as I have been playing (start of third edition.) That is not the problem. The problem being when they use their fluff to adjust stat lines to "breaking the illusion" limits and also drastically affect the way a force plays. To me the way a force plays should be dictated by unit selection and not SC selection.

Seeing Kantor or Shriek on every battleboard is just silly and predictable.

This is why I was a fan of the doctrine idea, it was broken but people had options without being forced to take a SC. It encouraged converting and imagination. Doctrines could have been retrofitted to every army creating an abundance of play styles and depth.

Chiron
01-04-2010, 19:23
Doctrines were fun and would have gone nicely with the old Strategy Rating of 2nd ed, for some extra points give your commander an increase to it or reroll the dice (with some special characters, those actually in charge of a force, adding to the roll)

Sunfang
01-04-2010, 20:30
Doctrines were fun and would have gone nicely with the old Strategy Rating of 2nd ed, for some extra points give your commander an increase to it or reroll the dice (with some special characters, those actually in charge of a force, adding to the roll)

Really the possibilities could of been endless.

Evolved into different order sets for IG, an actual distinction in craftworlds and how they utilize units in the FOC+special rules, a differance in chaos playstyles, Hive fleet evolutions, etc. etc.

Instead GW says...this SC does all of these things, if you dont play that than use it as count as. Oh and dont bother on using force commanders or chapter masters because you might as well use the stat line and better wargear of Calgar and use count as.

Melta's are the most effective way to pop tanks, oh this character allows me to do what...deal hes in my list. Count as of course.