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w3rm
30-03-2010, 17:10
Please note I am not bashing 40k in this post. I am making an observation.


I want to get into 40k. I really do. But I cannont find a faction that works for me. Pretty musch everything is copied and pasted from other sci fi stuff. All devouring aliens? Check. Zealous elite warriors in super big armour? Been there. Evil robots that have been entombed for eons? Yup. Space elves?

The point I'm making is nothing really seems to jump out at me. I play Daemons and theyre fun but they dont really seem all that Sci Fi-y.

So do you think that 40k races are a little bland and unoriginal?

Deetwo
30-03-2010, 17:16
Try Orks.
Unless ofcourse you find steampunk soccer hooligans a common theme in sci-fi already.. :D
(In which case I've been missing out on a lot!)


So do you think that 40k races are a little bland and unoriginal?

Not really.
GW games have always had a bit of satirical quality to them and that sort of thing always involves "unoriginality" to an extent, if you want to put it that way.
Ofcourse the current generation of 40k is plenty of grimdark and all that, but it's roots are still in high concentrations of extreme sillyness :D

Simply put, 40k is built on throwbacks and references.

Souleater
30-03-2010, 17:17
could you tell us why you want to get into 40k, please?

You look like a fantasy player...and the fantasy races in Warhammer have all pretty much been done elsewhere, too.

So what is the difference?

(Asking in a nice way)

w3rm
30-03-2010, 17:20
Well yeah they have been done elswhere. That's why I play Skaven. Sure theyre arent totally orgianly but they are fairly uncommon in the majority of fantasy settings. I was actually thinking of an Eldar army in 40k. I want to get into fantsy because the gameplay is pretty cool and its something different. Plus no one around me plays WotR so its just something else to do. But I was wondering if non Mech or Seer Council Eldar could work.

x-esiv-4c
30-03-2010, 17:21
A playable Umbra race would be awesome :)

Inquisitor Engel
30-03-2010, 17:22
Tyranids I think are pretty much your most "removed" from Fantasy.

w3rm
30-03-2010, 17:22
What's Umbra?

Alltaken
30-03-2010, 17:29
the actual question is who started the big guy in big suit in space thing. Who made space elves, etc.

Well GW might have not made them, but they made it massive and they are the real guys that brought this idea to the masses

w3rm
30-03-2010, 17:29
Well is the Eldar Batttle Force a good place to start an Eldar Force?

Falkman
30-03-2010, 17:35
No, it's a pretty crappy set. Guardians aren't exactly the best unit in the list, and are hard to put to good use. If you want the guardians it's a good deal, however.

TheShadowCow
30-03-2010, 17:39
What's Umbra?

Lovecraftian "aliens" which enjoy stabbing you in the face with your own shadow.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Umbra



Frankly you'll be hard pressed to find something 'unique' out there. Sci Fi has been focused on for long enough now for almost anything you can think of to generate an "oh, it's just that again" reaction from somewhere, despite there being plenty of differences when you get down to it.

Take the Tyranids for instance. Yes, horde of planet-eating aliens with bug-like characteristics, a Hive Mind etc, but on the other hand GW's Tyranids are well developed and are sufficiently different from their similars to not feel like you're just playing with Zerg, or Arachnids, or the Borg.

You need to look deeper.

Corbie
30-03-2010, 17:40
I want to get into 40k. I really do. But I cannont find a faction that works for me. Pretty musch everything is copied and pasted from other sci fi stuff. All devouring aliens? Check. Zealous elite warriors in super big armour? Been there. Evil robots that have been entombed for eons? Yup. Space elves?

Heh.. maybe you are setting the bar for originality a little high?

I mean.. one thing to keep in mind is that alot of these concepts are mainstream specifically because Warhammer 40k MADE them mainstream. What was previously an original 40k concept was stolen/borrowed by others until it has become a staple.

That being said.. in what crazy universe can you say "evil robots that have been entombed for eons" so flippantly? :D

Personally I find the Warhammer concepts to to be very unique, especially because of the fluff. When I think of sci-fi staples I think of UFOs and Black Holes and heroic space rangers and guys running around with laser pistols and laser swords. While 40k has battle barges, magical chaos warpgates, NO one is a hero, everyone is running around with goretastic hand cannons and chainsaws.

I mean humanity is a warped tyrannical empire founded on religious zealotry, human sacrifice, medical disfigurement, and whatever forgotten technology they can scrounge up.

How unique do you need it to be? Having billions of spandex wearing organic toaster ovens materialize from the ear canal of a 2 dollar hooker and stage a galactic takeover may be unique and imaginative... but it isnt exactly cool or in the spirit of the 40k universe :D

Bingo the Fun Monkey
30-03-2010, 19:49
Sounds like you don't want to play 40k. You want to play Infinity instead.

Firmlog
30-03-2010, 19:58
Hey, you can always play a race of Anorexic grey cows (tau). Thats pretty unusual. That aside, 40k isn't sci-fi, its fantasy in a scifi setting.

Ianos
30-03-2010, 20:17
Or you can create a race of your own using miniatures from both fantasy and 40k for example and a codex that fits the race in game mechanics. For example, you can always make space rats with IG rules, as long as they are WYSIWYG

Deetwo
30-03-2010, 20:22
Or Space Rat Hrud with Eldar rules, as some have done.. :)

There's infinite possibilities to invent your own races and with a bit of thought and a lot of converting use just about any codex available.

VonManstein
30-03-2010, 20:25
I agree, but I like stereotypes actually. Its a bit the same with comedy series on television: I like it if things are recognizable. (you know: the handsome-dumb guy, the nerd, the foreign guy etc)

We have a saying in Dutch, maybe you have it in English too (in a different wording then ofc :P ) :
'Better to steal something working, than coming up with something which doesnt work'

enigma-96
30-03-2010, 20:28
Or Space Rat Hrud with Eldar rules, as some have done.. :).

Nooooooooooooo don't do it the Hrud aren't Rat Men at all and you know it, you're just trying to pettle your evil Skaven plans to conquer the galaxy while scape goating those poor innocent Hrud, you should be ashamed of yourself :p



There's infinite possibilities to invent your own races and with a bit of thought and a lot of converting use just about any codex available.

GW Though Police: Original idea detected, purge it purge it purge it. (...While we shamelessly rebrand it as our own.)

Deetwo
30-03-2010, 20:30
Nooooooooooooo don't do it the Hrud aren't Rat Men at all and you know it

Yes, I know it. But the army does look absolutely amazing regardless :D


you're just trying to pettle your evil Skaven plans to conquer the galaxy while scape goating those poor innocent Hrud, you should be ashamed of yourself :p

Awww, that was supposed to be a secret!
:shifty:

What's more, I've also played against an even more amazing looking Nidzilla army made out of giant robots that look a bit like Transformers... ;)

enigma-96
30-03-2010, 20:39
What's more, I've also played against an even more amazing looking Nidzilla army made out of giant robots that look a bit like Transformers... ;)

Optimus Prime: Auto-bots transform and roll out we have an entire universe to devour.

Megatron: But sir we can't just go around devouring innocent planets and their inhabitants, it's just wrong, and me and my Decepticons won't stand for it.

Optimus Prime: If you don't stand with the Hive Spark then you too are an enemy that must be destroyed.

*And thus a pretty kickass franchise was born :p (Note: Some or all of this recollection may or may not be wrong and thus is not supported by the Auto-bots who contest that eating planets is wrong and that Unicron should be ashamed of himself.)

Deetwo
30-03-2010, 20:46
*And thus a pretty kickass franchise was born :p

Oh, indeed.

http://picasaweb.google.fi/Paholaiskala/RFTVPaasiainen2009#5324258107389372274

Also, spacerats:
http://picasaweb.google.fi/Paholaiskala/GreatGalacticBash#5051533649647354258

Comrade Penguin
30-03-2010, 21:11
Having billions of spandex wearing organic toaster ovens materialize from the ear canal of a 2 dollar hooker and stage a galactic takeover may be unique and imaginative... but it isnt exactly cool or in the spirit of the 40k universe :D

Guess you didn't hear the rumors about Codex: Organic Space Toasters? They are supposed to come out just before the DE revamp :angel:

burad
30-03-2010, 21:32
If we had Psychlos I'd definitely have an army of them.

Klingon sense of humor mixed with Ferengi greed, 8 feet tall. What's not to like about that?

tu33y
31-03-2010, 14:25
So do you think that 40k races are a little bland and unoriginal?

not at all. the differences in play styles and physical models can really be amazing.

what GW do is mix archetypes to create new things. like Necromunda... the Ratskins were part First Nation, part mad max, part skaven and a hundred other bits that sort of mixed to makean awesome whole.

Tau and IG are literally polar opposites... one is weak and uses technology to pretty much do their fighting for them where as the Guard couldnt care less how many troops are lost and take down big enimies fireant style with a thousand cuts.

fluffwise losing 30 marines in a battle would be a serious slap to a chapter and for Eldar every single man lost is a big deal. so as a general your mindset is on this fact.

Eldar in particular are not just "elves in space" although they are close. even the "Good" ones are actually mostly bas****s and the "bad" ones are propper nasty ****s.

Guard are part Colonial marines, part Weremacht, part Big Red One, part Vietnam, part Stalingrad, part starshiptroopers.

even in the most common army, The space Marines, you can literally make your own stuff up you can use the ones provided. Jaded souls will say this basically means choosing between spikey, red, doggy, blue, green etc butthere is more to it than that. lots more.

and the nids are just a pure eating machine that looks and plays totally different to the others.

i think one of the most awesome thing at the core of the hobby is the concept of "different but mactching abilities". it seems to be getting lost in the hunt for $ but you have to make real choices about who you are and how you want to fight.

i say read the fluff and see what you fancy.

tu33y
31-03-2010, 14:36
If we had Psychlos I'd definitely have an army of them.

Klingon sense of humor mixed with Ferengi greed, 8 feet tall. What's not to like about that?

plus militarily they stomp holes! i can imagine a gas drone appearing right over the imperial palace and hundreds of "Tank, Ground- Executive" swarming all over Fenris!

I had a Psychlo friend once... it was fine but just dont ask him to help you work out a resturant bill. I cant go back to Frankie And Bennys.... it was a bloodbath.

(only Hubbard fans and scinos got that joke)

Godzooky
31-03-2010, 14:38
the actual question is who started the big guy in big suit in space thing. Who made space elves, etc.

Well GW might have not made them, but they made it massive and they are the real guys that brought this idea to the masses

QFT

Humanity only has a certain amount of archetypes to throw around. It's what you do with them that counts. GW have added a great deal of imaginative value, IMHO.

Threeshades
31-03-2010, 14:57
Guard are part Colonial marines, part Weremacht, part Big Red One, part Vietnam, part Stalingrad, part starshiptroopers.


What's that? Hitler's secret Lycanthrope special force?

Sorry couldn't resist that one.

But other than that your post holds true, all races combine a lot of things and make their own feeling out of it. You just have to read into the fluff to see it.

sigur
31-03-2010, 15:06
...
So do you think that 40k races are a little bland and unoriginal?

Nope, not more so than other sci-fi factions or WHFB armies. Sure, you can reduce everything to a lowest common denominator but look into older fluff. Nowadays fluff can be a bit boring of course. It's basically what you make out of it.

Shas'o Kais
31-03-2010, 15:56
They Aren't all ripped off of something... Deamon hunters aren't.

Thanatos_elNyx
31-03-2010, 16:03
Why not simply use a current codex and make up your own alien race using the Counts As rule.

e.g. I've been waiting a long time for the new DE Codex so I could do Space Skaven.
(I simply felt DE are the most Skaveny 40k army out there, IG are close but I already have several shooty armies)

Creeping Dementia
31-03-2010, 16:15
Tau, Nids and Orks all have a different feel than the other 40k races. I'd go for one of those if you don't want Imperials or Space elves, especially Tau if you're wanting more sci-fi in your army.

Badger[Fr]
31-03-2010, 19:33
Sounds like you don't want to play 40k. You want to play Infinity instead.
Implying that Infinity is even remotely original is a joke, and a bad one. On the contrary, I fail to see how a setting could be any more bland than Infinity.

jsullivanlaw
31-03-2010, 22:15
Sounds like you don't want to play 40k. You want to play Infinity instead.

Infinity is a great game system, with absolutely astoundingly awesome models by the way. It's hardly bland but you gotta like anime if you are gonna really get into it. It's anime cold war pretty similar to Ghost in the Shell.

TimLeeson
31-03-2010, 22:17
I agree with those mentioned Umbra ect. Go with a minor race. I'm in the same boat, I find the "official" races rather boring - but if you dig deep enough you'll find some REALLY cool and original stuff in the backround, and they can make fantastic modelling projects.

Wintertide
31-03-2010, 22:35
Hey w3rm,

Just wanted to chime in and say I'm kind of in the same boat. Collect Warriors of Chaos in fantasy but have tried and failed to start 40K numerous times.

No problem with the fluff (apart from maybe the over-abundance of one particular faction :rolleyes:) the armies just don't seem to appeal the same way as fantasy. Ah well maybe just wasn't meant to be :cries:

barrangas
31-03-2010, 23:24
Tau are probably your best choice. They are like the British Empire in space, which is more original then most other armies IMO. They also have Kroot which are cannibalistic aliens that enhance their own genome by eating other species and incorperating their DNA. I've yet to see an example of that else where. Plus they have mecha.

I think the problem I have with 40k is that too much of it is related to fantasy.

Tourniquet
31-03-2010, 23:49
[QUOTE=Wintertide;4534913
No problem with the fluff (apart from maybe the over-abundance of one particular faction :rolleyes:) the armies just don't seem to appeal the same way as fantasy. Ah well maybe just wasn't meant to be :cries:[/QUOTE]

I have the same in reverse :p
Fantasy armies seem dull, lack the ability for cool conversions, average models, and i just can't get into it.

To be honest good luck finsing anything new/creative that ahsn't been done before in a game.

Oguleth
01-04-2010, 01:55
I find FB and 40k about as "bland" and "unoriginal" as each other - and most other fantasy and sci factions tends to follow the same ideas.

However, I find the 40k visuals and lists more appealing than fantasy; and in the end this is what breaks or glosses over the archtype cases. Don't like some tanks and fantasy races with guns? 40k turns bland. Instantly.

Firaxin
01-04-2010, 07:08
theyre fun but they dont really seem all that Sci Fi-y.
This is where you screw yourself.

40k isn't science fiction. It's dark, brooding, gothic science fantasy.
Seriously.



I agree with Tourniquet really. I've always felt WHFB was dull with poor fluff compared to 40k. :confused:

Example--
Dark Elves: Exist because the third child of the previous Phoenix King couldn't handle the fact that his older sister became the Everqueen, making it impossible for him to take the throne ('cause then he'd have to have incest). Unable to deal, he gave in to his lust for personal power and tried to take the throne by force, starting a civil war (as happened hundreds of times in Medieval/etc Europe). Defeated, he and his followers fled to distant lands, but because they're basically immortal, they still launch new attacks on Ulthuan every now and then. Because of both their exile and the circumstances of their geographic clime, they as a society have become reliant on pirating for what little resources they have and a kind of social darwinism to make sure that those Dark Elves who are around are worth giving said stolen supplies to.

Compared to...

Dark Eldar: After conquering the galaxy and reaching such a pinnacle of technology that they basically had no work to do, the Eldar life style devolved into one of rampant orgiastic, hedonistic, and sadistic behavior in a losing effort to pass the time of their near-immortal lives. Such potent emotions being echoed across the galaxy, and for so long, created psychic reverberations in the aether that lead to the birth of a God. In the instant of its birth, this hungry god utterly consumed the souls of 99.9% of the Eldar population. The survivors of this holocaust became aware of a horrifying fact--not only was there no escaping eternal torment at this god's hands when they died, but it was actively sucking away their souls in life. Some, (the CWE), developed highly regimented styles of life, based on self-denial and the avoidance of life's greater pleasures, to prevent their souls being actively consumed. The Dark Eldar, on the other hand, were like, '**** that, it's not worth it' and continued their hedonistic behavior of raping, pillaging, and torturing. They learned with every cry of agony they inflicted upon another soul, they staved off Slaanesh's consumption of their own souls, buying them time. In modern times, the Dark Eldar hide from this god in the few cracks of Hell unreachable by daemons, only coming forth into reality to capture new souls that they can trade for their own, and in the meantime killing those of each other not wasting such precious souls to maintain. The ironic fact being that their every action feeds the god the hate, and in death there is no escaping it's eternal damnation, no matter how well they fed it in life.


Really, I don't think anyone can say that any 40k race is not superior to its Fantasy counterpart.

w3rm
01-04-2010, 15:30
I like the dark eldar actually. Just cant stand the models.

Poseidal
01-04-2010, 16:03
One thing is originality, but without anything 'real' or existing to relate it to, it would be more difficult to catch the imagination. The more alien it is, the more it has to relate to humanity something familiar (like terrorizing humans) for people to look.


Guess you didn't hear the rumors about Codex: Organic Space Toasters? They are supposed to come out just before the DE revamp :angel:

They ARE the DE revamp.