PDA

View Full Version : 2 doomwheels 2 much? at 2250?



Sons of Blight
31-03-2010, 21:03
At my local hobby shop it seems that 2 doom wheels are overpowered and not worth playing against. thoughts?

Tarian
31-03-2010, 21:07
Depends on your gaming area. When we're prepping for tournaments, no. When we're playing a friendly against a new player? Probably.

GuyLeCheval
31-03-2010, 21:10
Well, you're still below the maximum cheese level of HPA+doomwheel...

N810
31-03-2010, 21:11
It would be ok as long as there wheren't many other big toys...

Nocculum
31-03-2010, 21:14
Given the relatively random nature and tendency to misfire and run your own troops over (which they regularly do for me I might add...) I'd say no depending on the remainder of your army.

I'd prefer the safer option of a Warp-Lightning Cannon and a Doomwheel, personally, but that's just that, a preference.

Tymell
31-03-2010, 21:19
Not too much in my opinion, no. It kind of depends on the rest of the layout of the army.

This whole notion (which seems very common these days) that having one or two specific things within an army automatically makes it an unfair or cheesy list is just silly. Some list combos might be stronger than others, but very few builds are actually abusive, and it would be boring to suggest that all lists should conform to some kind of ideal of fairness.

Ultimate Life Form
31-03-2010, 21:34
Well, you're still below the maximum cheese level of HPA+doomwheel...

Interesting idea... please rank:

DW+DW
DW+HPA
HPA+HPA

:p

Bedsheets
31-03-2010, 21:37
It's not cheesy at all.

The Red Scourge
31-03-2010, 22:24
Depends on the opposition. Some armies have the power to tear them apart, others don't.

Let experience teach you. If the wheels singlehandedly win every game for you, then its too much.

Sygerrik
31-03-2010, 22:32
Interesting idea... please rank:

DW+DW
DW+HPA
HPA+HPA

:p


Vs. Steg spam, HE Dragon lists, armies with Greater Daemons:
HPA + DW

Against anyone else:
HPA + HPA

Dual DW is the least broken of the three in all cases.

w3rm
31-03-2010, 23:38
I wouldnt call it friendly but not cheesy. Yeah Doomwheels are really nasty. For a few games. Then they start to attract cannonballs and other nastys so they arent a huge problem to deal with. Unlike the HPA which is such a pain to get rid of.

shredshredxx
31-03-2010, 23:49
it depends on who you're playing against. some armies have cannons or bolt throwers. some don't, and suffer accordingly when doomwheels and their ilk are brought into play.

Stumpy
01-04-2010, 00:15
Essentially if your enemy can't kill them at range, doomwheels are cheesy. Otherwise they have similar weaknesses to other big nasties (except a much higher damage output and threat per point).

soots
01-04-2010, 00:21
HPA are absolute broken, id rank them higher than stanks.

DW is about 80% of a stank. Its less broken than a HPA, but its still darn powerful. One would be nasty, 2 would be overboard. (stank 1 is near overboard)

I think Skaven have 3 broken things. Doomwheel (should have been chariot + T5), HPA (where do i start? 24 S7 hits in one charge enough?), doomrocket (ridiculous and reliable). The rest of the army is pretty decent though.

Stumpy
01-04-2010, 00:31
Oooh, someone's had a bad experience with a stank :P
I'm an empire player and I don't like the stanks rules actually, my opponents get caught out on its many miscelaneous rules and it not giving up half VPs is silly. I'd call it unbalanced rather than broken as if you have something to deal with it it quickly becomes a terror causing terrain piece, if you don't have anything it dominates the game.

I just disagree with doomwheels being nicer than a stank. Its charge and its lightning (more powerful and more reliable than WLC) are both 360 degrees, no line of sight. Also half the cost of a tank.

Kevlar
01-04-2010, 00:37
it depends on who you're playing against. some armies have cannons or bolt throwers. some don't, and suffer accordingly when doomwheels and their ilk are brought into play.

Any army has ranked units. Doomwheels do nothing to ranked units. I escort mine across the field with a slave block and half the time it doesn't even kill any of my slaves. It is nasty to big monsters but any ranked unit will break it and send it panicking back into the skaven lines.

Stumpy
01-04-2010, 00:50
If a unit of slaves are escorting it, couldn't the slaves charge at the same time? Ranks + impact hits.
Also, skaven have more answers to ranked infantry than any other army. Its like they were designed to wipe out infantry.

Kevlar
01-04-2010, 02:19
If a unit of slaves are escorting it, couldn't the slaves charge at the same time? Ranks + impact hits.
Also, skaven have more answers to ranked infantry than any other army. Its like they were designed to wipe out infantry.

Well I keep the slaves between the doomwheel and my important units. The slaves drop back once I get going so that the doomwheel can start shooting the enemy. With only leadership 7 it isn't hard for any unit with ranks and a standard to beat and break. If it flubs its attacks or gets charged its toast.

Dungeon_Lawyer
01-04-2010, 02:48
what are their intiative values? Any race with access to pit of shades ..........?

vinny t
01-04-2010, 02:59
What sems to be the problem with doomwheels, is how their movement works. If the doomwheel rolls a 6 or so for movement, it can do




D
GGGGGGGGGGGG
GGGGGGGGGGGG
GGGGGGGGGGGG




GGGGGGG
D GGGGGGG
GGGGGGG


Then it can charge in a flank, and negate ranks, making it slightly ridiculous

Dantès
01-04-2010, 02:59
There's nothing wrong with taking 2 Doomwheels. As someone who plays Skryre, and has a doomwheel that doesn't miss a game, I can tell you they are not nearly as nasty as people try to make them out to be. They're not OP, they're quite unreliable if shot at, and they're easy to get rid of in combat if they charge in alone. I've had it take three wounds in a single turn by an Alter Noble, before I lost combat and got run down. I've had it destroyed by Quarrellers in combat, Night Goblin archers, etc etc etc. The worst is when it takes a fanatic or three to the face...

Anyway, point it that every army has a way to take it out. It's quite easy to kill, really. T5 with an armor save that might as well not even exist? Be happy your opponent took 2 doomwheels instead of an HPA I'd say :p

Sygerrik
01-04-2010, 04:06
There's nothing wrong with taking 2 Doomwheels. As someone who plays Skryre, and has a doomwheel that doesn't miss a game, I can tell you they are not nearly as nasty as people try to make them out to be. They're not OP, they're quite unreliable if shot at, and they're easy to get rid of in combat if they charge in alone. I've had it take three wounds in a single turn by an Alter Noble, before I lost combat and got run down. I've had it destroyed by Quarrellers in combat, Night Goblin archers, etc etc etc. The worst is when it takes a fanatic or three to the face...

Anyway, point it that every army has a way to take it out. It's quite easy to kill, really. T5 with an armor save that might as well not even exist? Be happy your opponent took 2 doomwheels instead of an HPA I'd say :p

T6, actually. And vinny t, they FAQ'd the DW so you can't do that anymore.

I think the only thing in the Skaven book that's underpointed (I used underpointed instead of overpowered because, theoretically, NOTHING is overpowered if its points cost accurately reflects its tabletop utility; they could make a monster that's straight 10s across the board and a level 5 wizard and if his points cost reflected that he'd be balanced) is the HPA. I would buy it for 250 points (275 with upgrade). It's not nearly as underpriced as a Hydra or Greater Daemon.

Kevlar
01-04-2010, 04:12
T6, actually. And vinny t, they FAQ'd the DW so you can't do that anymore.

I think the only thing in the Skaven book that's underpointed (I used underpointed instead of overpowered because, theoretically, NOTHING is overpowered if its points cost accurately reflects its tabletop utility; they could make a monster that's straight 10s across the board and a level 5 wizard and if his points cost reflected that he'd be balanced) is the HPA. I would buy it for 250 points (275 with upgrade). It's not nearly as underpriced as a Hydra or Greater Daemon.

Yeah the HPA is just wrong. Compare it to a giant and besides the movement its better in every way. Regen? At least 50 points. Stand back up? Only on a 6 but the swarms aren't bad either. Better than just falling over. I'd say it should be 300 min 350 with magic resistance upgrade.

Darkspear
01-04-2010, 04:19
Personally, I would think both doomwheels and HPAs are over powered choice. And I have witness people losing games to those models alone simply because some armies have no tools for it.

Personally I feel that 2 doomwheels is cheesy and I believe (I may be wrong), that those who feel that it is not cheesy are people who played in very competitive environments.

As mentioned earlier...if you are winning games simply due to those models, yes then it is too much and you should drop one.

Stumpy
01-04-2010, 04:29
Yeah, the doomwheel falls on its face sometimes, but the issue it its 150 points, should be about 250 OR have its movement restricted to arcs, same as a monster.
Think of the horror stories about giants dying in embarrassing situations, happens all the time. But in a straight up comparison doomwheels are better despite being considerably cheaper. In fact, they're the cheapest big terror causing thingy in the game and more powerful than a number of others irrespective of points.

Felworth
01-04-2010, 04:37
I saw a HPA eat the center of an Orc and Goblin army once.

It was attacked by a 25 strong orc mob led by a big boss in the front and flank charged by savage orc big'uns with extra choppas and a giant. Brave thing those orc boyz. Brave but stupid.

HPA walked out of it two combats later with half its wounds remaining while the rest of the Skaven army cheered it on from the otherside of the field where they waited, quite content to let that one monster win the game for them.

Doomwheels are scary, yeah but nothing compared to the HPA.

Kevlar
01-04-2010, 04:46
Yeah, the doomwheel falls on its face sometimes, but the issue it its 150 points, should be about 250 OR have its movement restricted to arcs, same as a monster.
Think of the horror stories about giants dying in embarrassing situations, happens all the time. But in a straight up comparison doomwheels are better despite being considerably cheaper. In fact, they're the cheapest big terror causing thingy in the game and more powerful than a number of others irrespective of points.

Nah the doomwheel isn't worth 250. It isn't nearly as powerful as a black coach which also causes terror, among many other things. The shooting attack is not very powerful and on turn 1&2 is most likely hitting its own troops.

Its a decent chariot but its random movement makes it tough to flank charge with. And it does follow charge arcs like everything else in the game. Its in the faq. It doesn't need line of sight, but it can only charge in the arc it starts in.

Stumpy
01-04-2010, 07:52
I meant for the purposes of 360 charge arc. I don't know what abilities you think the black coach has over the doomwheel though. The black coach is just an expensive chariot with a 4+ ward.

Kevlar
01-04-2010, 08:10
I meant for the purposes of 360 charge arc. I don't know what abilities you think the black coach has over the doomwheel though. The black coach is just an expensive chariot with a 4+ ward.

Well it steals magic dice and powers up, plus all the undead tricks make it tough to deal with. You can heal it, its unbreakable, plus it can be boosted with ASF, dance macabred for a free move. T6 with a 4+ ward and getting healed make it really tough to deal with.

Fredrik
01-04-2010, 08:39
Well for the pricetag of the doomwheel combined with round the clock charge, don,t having to declare a charge until you know if you will reach a unit, T6 with save agains all small armsfire, not breaking from S7 and gimped impact hits by woods, terror, ItP and shooting that completely owns multiwound creatures. Yes I would say that 2 are to much against anything but armies with heavy shooting.

It is like previously stated undercosted for what it does. It has way to much damage output together with lacking downsides. And if you take more of undercosted units the balance does shift towards worse balance.

But on the other hand 2 HPA is a nightmare to deal with, but an undercosted unit doesn´t get ok just because there are worse options.

Djekar
01-04-2010, 08:43
I don't think 2 is too many at 2250. Sure they waffle-stomp big multiwound things, but they aren't so hot against a ranked unit. I know no one plays with those anymore but I promise they do have some value!

Ultimate Life Form
01-04-2010, 09:35
I saw a HPA eat the center of an Orc and Goblin army once.

It was attacked by a 25 strong orc mob led by a big boss in the front and flank charged by savage orc big'uns with extra choppas and a giant. Brave thing those orc boyz. Brave but stupid.

HPA walked out of it two combats later with half its wounds remaining while the rest of the Skaven army cheered it on from the otherside of the field where they waited, quite content to let that one monster win the game for them.

Doomwheels are scary, yeah but nothing compared to the HPA.

Doomwheels insta-kill big monsters.

Hellpits insta-kill any number of regular rank and file.

Together they are unstoppable! :evilgrin:

Stumpy
01-04-2010, 11:18
D6+1 impact hits and average of 7 str 3 attacks? Sounds like a chariot, which are quite good against infantry.
That unit of slaves that accompanies the doomwheel could just charge enemy infantry at the same time and win. Easy.

Sons of Blight
01-04-2010, 13:41
I'm actually the one who brought the two doomwheels - I love the models and the fact they can do something ...well sometimes is bounus - And I brought 2 to see how they'd work in a tourny list - which they did pretty good - however I've heard nothing but cheese after since my games - the other things in my army are a grey seer with two powerstones (i've played 3 games he's disappeared into the realms of chaos in two of them:)) screamingbell with 30 storm vermin - 8 plague censors - 5 units of 25 slaves spears/shields 6 jezzails - 2 warlocks lvl one -1 chieftan - 20 plague monks - 2x 10groups of giant rats.-

Sons of Blight
01-04-2010, 13:43
needless to say I put them away and am now working on a wood elves - i'm sure I'll get complaints about them being cheese now i'm sure - so no treeman for me!

Sygerrik
01-04-2010, 13:53
D6+1 impact hits and average of 7 str 3 attacks? Sounds like a chariot, which are quite good against infantry.
That unit of slaves that accompanies the doomwheel could just charge enemy infantry at the same time and win. Easy.

The Doomwheel's attacks are S2. It is really, really bad against ranked infantry. The Doomwheel is for killing multiwound monsters and US 3 heavy infantry. Anything else is a target for the HPA.

It's also tough to pull off combined charges with the Doomwheel because of its random movement rate.

I'm not saying a Doomwheel isn't good. It's pretty good. But it's not Flamer good, Black Guard good, Infernal Gateway good... it's not good enough to be a lynchpin.

Gaargod
01-04-2010, 13:57
Your army sounds very reasonable. Not weak, but totally fine to play against. The only problem would be if your local meta tends towards weaker lists - which is odd if you're trying for tournaments.

They're a pain for some armies (my own very much included in that list) and underpriced, but not OTT.

Although i really, really wish they took more damage from terrain. That one annoys me.

Ixquic
01-04-2010, 15:05
Bring two doom wheels is pretty ridiculous, especially since that is the same price as one steam tank. One is ok as long as your opponent isn't Ogres or something since you might as not bother playing (the lighting basically one shots a unit a turn by itself).

Of course HPA are straight up broken and have no place in a friendly game unless everyone is aware balls are to the wall. Anyone who brings two is just an ass.

Cragspyder
01-04-2010, 15:35
Things are broken all the time in this game. Just had 16 Saurus and my Scar Veteran instantly killed by Cloying Quagmire the other day in one casting. Ironically my Hero died BECAUSE I gave him the Enchanted Shield (2+ instead of 3+ save, I rolled a 2....). Then had two Kroxigor instantly killed the turn after by the same spell, since it just kills people instead of doing wounds.

Stupidest thing I have ever seen in this game, granted Saurus and Kroxigor are the best targets in the game for that spell but still. Maybe Kroxigor can't even be targeted, but the spell says it cannot target creatures with the 'Amphibious' special rule, and Kroxigors are 'Aquatic' not 'Amphibious' so we rolled off. I lost. Just another example of bad GW book writing. Who cares?

I don't think you should be playing Warhammer if you are hoping for a fair, balanced contest. It's not going to happen. Play if you want to roll some dice and show off your paint jobs on your models, and play with people you can have fun with so when he kills half your army in one shot you can say 'Well, that was unexpected' and move on.

The guy I was playing with was a nice guy so we were just laughing at how much damage that spell had done. I mean, it was 1000 points, he brought ONE mage, it was not like he was trying to push Quagmire through with 4 casters. It just happened. And in the end the last remaining Kroxigor charged the Chaos Warriors with the mage in it and caved his skull in with a giant axe, so it all worked out.

EDIT: Um, forgot to address the point of the thread.

No, its not too much. I had a doomwheel basically win the game for this little kid I was playing against, but then it did four wounds to itself with a misfired warp lightning and my Scar-Veteran finished it off. No proxies though; bring two painted Doomwheels or don't take em out of the carry case :)

Semiholy243
01-04-2010, 16:46
Then they start to attract cannonballs and other nastys so they arent a huge problem to deal with. Unlike the HPA which is such a pain to get rid of.

I think in general too much in this game is balanced based on cannons. especially considering only two armies have access to actual cannons.

on a side note though i don't consider the doomwheel broken. When all is said and done it's just a big chariot. yes, its probably undercosted but it also (as previously mentioned) is taking up one of those precious rare slots that could have been a HPA, so i wouldn't complain.

as far as how i would deal with it, basically tactics. Its strength is in the impact hits. once its in combat, it blows. position yourself so that you get the charge and you're all set. Charge it with flyers or skirmishers and hold it up till your rank and file get there to mop it up.

Also i would totally disagree with Stanks not being more powerful than them. Stanks have so much survivability that basically no army will actively try to kill it. Doomwheels seem to rarely last to the end of a game.

Spinocus
01-04-2010, 17:48
Two Doomwheels are cheesy? Please. Are DW's tough? Sure, they can be but they're sure as hell not cheesy. Stanks may be limited in what they can do in a given turn but they're Unbreakable and are a bitch to take down.

As Semiholy243 mentioned, barring the absence of cannons the key is to get the charge on a DW and lock it down in combat and win via CR. In terms of magic spells like Rule of Burning Iron, Pit of Shades, Commandment of Brass, The Beast Cowers (perfectly legal since the rats powering the DW would be affected by spell, effectively preventing movement, melee and Grinding Down the Foe attacks from taking place), Steal Soul and Doom of Darkness should all work well against the DW. I think Commandment of Brass and The Beast Cowers would be particularly effective since they would freeze the DW in place so it can be charged.

Take a DW versus a cannon happy Dwarf or Empire list... there's a good chance it will go 'poof' when given a serving or two of cannonballs.

I've taken a single DW in 4 games and in 3 of those games it barely made an impact before going 'poof' by the 3rd turn. In a game vs WE it rolled crap movement, rolled low Strength for its Zzzap! bolts and thanks to terrible Grinding Down the Foe and melee rolls it was summarily charged and beaten by Wild Riders & the WE General before rolling off the table. In one game versus Dwarfs cannon fire took it out on the 2nd turn. In another game versus the bearded folk a cannon knocked off a few wounds before the DW charged a unit of Hammerers, failed to make a serious impression in combat and fled. The one game where the DW shined was vs a cannon-free Dwarf list where the DW scooted past their lines and proceeded to Zzzap! the hell out of Ironbreakers and Hammerers (I refrained from charging due to lack of nearby support) even then the DW still didn't make its points back.

The big problem with people's perception of the DW is that most critics utterly ignore the averages and zone in on its potential maximum output. ZOMG, 18" movement, 360 LOS for charges, 3 bolts of S10 Warp-Lightning! 7 S6 Impact hits, 3 S6 Grinding Down the Foe hits! Yeah, because that happens all the time... :rolleyes:

The success of the DW hinges on too many random variables for it to be considered overpowered. Beyond the Terror, solid D6+1 S6 Impact Hits and D3 S6 Grinding Down the foe hits you have random 3D6 movement, random strength Zzzap! attacks, ok leadership (Ld7) and unbelievably crappy random melee attacks (2D6 WS3 S2 attacks?!?). The DW is best utilized a a monster/single model killer and as a scoot n' shoot terror bomb that can roll in any direction.

N810
01-04-2010, 18:12
In a clasicly skaven design, should thy get too close to each outher one of them is likely to blow up the other one... :p

Ixquic
01-04-2010, 18:15
The big problem with people's perception of the DW is that most critics utterly ignore the averages and zone in on its potential maximum output. ZOMG, 18" movement, 360 LOS for charges, 3 bolts of S10 Warp-Lightning! 7 S6 Impact hits, 3 S6 Grinding Down the Foe hits! Yeah, because that happens all the time... :rolleyes:


When does it not get 360 degree charges?

Ultimate Life Form
01-04-2010, 18:43
When does it not get 360 degree charges?

I suppose when something majorly blocks its LoS. :rolleyes:

Malorian
01-04-2010, 18:45
I'd rather face 2 doomwheels than 2 HPA any day.

Ixquic
01-04-2010, 19:08
That goes for me as well.

Stumpy
02-04-2010, 00:15
As Semiholy243 mentioned, barring the absence of cannons the key is to get the charge on a DW and lock it down in combat and win via CR. In terms of magic spells like Rule of Burning Iron, Pit of Shades, Commandment of Brass, The Beast Cowers (perfectly legal since the rats powering the DW would be affected by spell, effectively preventing movement, melee and Grinding Down the Foe attacks from taking place), Steal Soul and Doom of Darkness should all work well against the DW. I think Commandment of Brass and The Beast Cowers would be particularly effective since they would freeze the DW in place so it can be charged.

It is immune to beast cowers and commandment of brass, as it is not cavalry, a warmachine, chariot or monster. It is monsterous infantry according to GW. Pit of shades isn't much good as you have to cast it, then roll a 4+ to hit it (the doomwheel is too big for the template to cover the base), then its I4.


Take a DW versus a cannon happy Dwarf or Empire list... there's a good chance it will go 'poof' when given a serving or two of cannonballs.

Oh noes! You must use your skill to hide from cannons, like every other large target in the game which cost up to twice as much.


I've taken a single DW in 4 games and in 3 of those games it barely made an impact before going 'poof' by the 3rd turn. In a game vs WE it rolled crap movement, rolled low Strength for its Zzzap! bolts and thanks to terrible Grinding Down the Foe and melee rolls it was summarily charged and beaten by Wild Riders & the WE General before rolling off the table.
It costs around the same as a block of boring infantry, who are designed to hold off charges and also would have died.


In another game versus the bearded folk a cannon knocked off a few wounds before the DW charged a unit of Hammerers, failed to make a serious impression in combat and fled.

You charged hammerers and lost with something that was 150 points. Yup, seems you should have lost that combat. So instead you use it as a mobile terror bomb and strong shooting unit, which nothing else that cheap that has a decent chance at hurting hammerers can do.

Stumpy
02-04-2010, 01:29
Maybe Kroxigor can't even be targeted, but the spell says it cannot target creatures with the 'Amphibious' special rule, and Kroxigors are 'Aquatic' not 'Amphibious' so we rolled off. I lost. Just another example of bad GW book writing. Who cares?


That one just seems silly that your opponent would even think about asking if kroxigor are affected. The only thing that is amphibious in any game is the imperial guard chimera, and I don't think cloying quagmire has the range to target a game being played on another table.

Dungeon_Lawyer
02-04-2010, 02:13
Its just such ashame.

Does anyone use that other Skaven rare choice: Thecatapult thingie--:(

It seems really cool.......

Kevlar
02-04-2010, 02:22
Its just such ashame.

Does anyone use that other Skaven rare choice: Thecatapult thingie--:(

It seems really cool.......

No official model limits its effectiveness. Not everyone is a scratchbuilder. Same with the HPA. I don't want to stick down a lump of play-dough and say thats my big terrifying beasty.

Spinocus
02-04-2010, 02:56
It is immune to beast cowers and commandment of brass, as it is not cavalry, a warmachine, chariot or monster. It is monsterous infantry according to GW. Pit of shades isn't much good as you have to cast it, then roll a 4+ to hit it (the doomwheel is too big for the template to cover the base), then its I4.

Monstrous infantry?!? How do you reach that conclusion? I disagree, the DW is certainly not cavalry but it's definitely in the realm of chariot and war machine. It is specifically mentioned as moving like a chariot and the fluff lists the rats running inside the wheel as its means of propulsion. A wheeled vehicle of war that relies on animals to provide locomotion sounds awfully chariot-like to me. Using RAI the DW should be a legitimate target for those spells I listed. I can only imagine the looks I would get if I tried arguing that the DW is 'monstrous infantry' to my friends. Rules lawyering only goes so far in a friendly group that chooses realism & sensibility whenever 'gray area' rules disputes pop up.


Oh noes! You must use your skill to hide from cannons, like every other large target in the game which cost up to twice as much.

Sure thing, i'll hide the DW... Where?!? My friends and I don't choose and place terrain; we use the 6th BRB and roll for all terrain pieces, divide the board into three equal parts and use 4D6 and the scatter dice to determine placement in each part. In the 4 games I mentioned only once was I afforded an opportunity to screen the advance of my DW. But... the DW had to reach the terrain to use it. The DW was shot to pieces before it could get behind cover. Oh noes!


It costs around the same as a block of boring infantry, who are designed to hold off charges and also would have died.
I would gladly bet on a 30 strong unit of Clanrats lasting more than one round versus those Wild Riders (and possibly beating them).


You charged hammerers and lost with something that was 150 points. Yup, seems you should have lost that combat. So instead you use it as a mobile terror bomb and strong shooting unit, which nothing else that cheap that has a decent chance at hurting hammerers can do.
Again, there was nowhere to hide. I could have charged the cannon if the movement roll was better but it wasn't so it was either charge the nearby Hammerers or risk having another cannonball take away its last 2 wounds. I opted to make the most of it. My friend has an uncanny knack for guessing distances so close, far, odd position, usually it makes no difference. I was amazed the DW made it as far as it did.

Stumpy
02-04-2010, 04:55
Its in the realm of a chariot, but its not a chariot. We know that. In the FAQ it says it isn't a monster. It certainly isn't cavalry, so by RAW it isn't affected by beast cowers. It isn't a war machine either, nothing in its description says it is or functions like one, so it isn't affected by commandment of brass.
If you're using RAI, I applaude you. That's what skaven players need to do with their book.