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darks23
13-05-2010, 03:44
So recently I noticed a lot of battle reports and games in my own area showing Nids which got me thinking of units and armies that sound bad or meduim on paper, but are strong on the batfield. A prime example of this is chaos possesed. The are terrible on paper with their high points cost and ramdom abilties, but on the board they typical do well because of their high strengh and their suprising good 5++. So opening a can of worms I ask what units are the lowest of the low here, but rock in games?

Thud
13-05-2010, 04:09
Vypers.

People tend to obsess over how easy it is to kill them, but don't give them enough credit for what they can do.

Also, on a more general note, it seems people on the interwebz have very little imagination when it comes to units; everything seems to still revolve around the whole 'can this thing kill more points than I paid for it'-silliness.

[SD] Bob Plisskin
13-05-2010, 04:20
Vypers.

People tend to obsess over how easy it is to kill them, but don't give them enough credit for what they can do.


Agreed, Especially when they swarm. I think the thing that is overlooked is that with the speed of them the armour can be paper thin. Similar approach applies to lanspeeders however they have meltas, cannons and flamers so they appeal to people with big gun fixation.

Another Eldar one is the storm guardian. They pack a strong punch if played right (2 xflamer 1x destructor) and are cheap to boot.

wazatdingder
13-05-2010, 04:23
I get a lot of crap for my Thunder Wolf Cav all having SSs. They are yet to disappoint.

Reflex
13-05-2010, 07:14
conscripts... yea thats right... i went there...

speaking of thunderwolf cav....

Commissar lord + 50 conscripts get charged by thunderwolf cav, they hold for 5 combat turns, finally its just the commissar (on 1 wound) and 2 conscripts. next guard turn the next wave showed up and lasgunned the last cav to death and took the objective. hehehe that was funny.

dragonet111
13-05-2010, 07:19
I like my Storm Troopers. They are expensive but the AP3 is very usuful against necrons and aspect warriors., the 2 meltas is also nice. And the minis of the kasrkin are awesome.

daboarder
13-05-2010, 09:38
still cant do anything with the pyrovore though....yeah had to be said.

RCgothic
13-05-2010, 09:47
Or Mogul Kamir. Or Nork.

Logarithm Udgaur
13-05-2010, 11:18
I use Penal Legion a lot. They get a bad rap in the IG tactics thread, and for the life of me I am still trying to understand why.

Simo429
13-05-2010, 11:23
plans never survive contact with the enemy

holds true in 40k as we as real life

a good army list will help however its nothing without a proper commander who knows how to use it

wazatdingder
13-05-2010, 12:27
On the other hand, there are models that sound good on paper, like Trygon and Mawclaw, who I haven't really see do anything except waste the money a Nid player should have spent on Carnifex.

Reflex
13-05-2010, 12:40
I use Penal Legion a lot. They get a bad rap in the IG tactics thread, and for the life of me I am still trying to understand why.

not true...

tactica threads dont like penal lists, not penal squads. they are good for what they can do (harass the enemy, provide a stubborn, cheap, flank unit) but as a list they dont have any weapon options and so they cannot be used to a proper effect as an army list.

enygma7
13-05-2010, 12:46
Nid wise, I find carnifexes and ravenors do a lot better than expected whilst trygons and flying bonesword warriors, the darlings of the internet, typically do very little. I think differences between paper and battlefield performance crop up because theoryhammerers only take into account points and stats and discard factors like model size, synergy with the rest of the army and player psychology.

Trygon: its huge so it hardly ever gets a cover save, vulnerable to rapid fire if it actually deepstrikes, forcing you to move it with the rest of the army if you actually want it to live more than 1 turn, big and scary both model and stat wise so it attracts fire.

Flying warriors: target number 1 for the opponent - synapse, fast, can rip apart their best units.

Carnifex: lower target priority than trygons, broods can get cover saves easily using medium size creatures.

Ravenors: massively underrated in the previous codex, just as much so now despite droping 10 points. Their speed and rending allows them to hit a turn ahead of the rest of the army and take out tanks/nasty ranged units that are ripping up your army. Great tactical role within the army that isn't revealed by straight points/kill analysis.

Thoume
13-05-2010, 12:47
I'd like to try Flash Gits at some point. Sure they're silly expensive (370pnts for 9 gits with shootier+more dakka and a painboy) and take up a heavy support slot for an anti-infantry/light vehicle role, but they are still nobz in 'eavy armour, so are just as good in that respect minus the power klaws! With that in mind I quite like the idea of an all-nobz force; 2 warbosses, 3 elites nobz, 2 troops nobz and 3 flash gits, with wagons and grot servants on the side. Would be tricky to fit all that in 1500 but would be fun to try :D

RanaldLoec
13-05-2010, 13:03
Grots, Gretchin, the bottom of the ork dung pile. But when your have 90 or so shots even at st 3 ap nothing its funny to watch a Marine players face when his assault squad gets maimed by glorified 1 foot fungus waving round a spud gun.

Gimp
13-05-2010, 13:04
4 Shinning Spears with an Autarch I dont play Eldar but my friend uses this set up and it kills alot

Gensuke626
13-05-2010, 13:15
You know what always gets called weak? Tankbustaz. But I've yet to be truly disappointed by the little rokkit toting shroomies.

on the other hand, Lootaz are so good on paper, that they often are on the receiving end of an alpha strike and tend to lose combat effectiveness after turn 2 or so.

Campbell1988
13-05-2010, 13:32
On the other hand, there are models that sound good on paper, like Trygon and Mawclaw, who I haven't really see do anything except waste the money a Nid player should have spent on Carnifex.

Odd, since here Fexes have done nothing butt wiggle around and die horribly while things like Trygons (not so much Mawlocs...) and Tyrannofexes (guy has a cool one made from a Trygon-Fex kit bash) have caused some serious trouble.

sliganian
13-05-2010, 13:51
Chaos SM Lesser Daemons.

A 65 point scoring unit that takes up no Force Org slots, can assault on the turn it Deep Strikes, has Space Marine WS, S, T, is Fearless and has a 5+ Invulnerable save (but no armour).

When used properly they can utterly ruin an opponent's careful planning.

Born Again
13-05-2010, 15:01
I've never tried Flash Gitz, but am keen too. Despite the bad rap they get sometimes, I've heard good things from people who've used them.

I have a squad of Vespids in my Tau army. They've never won me a game, but have certainly handled themselves a lot better than people would have you believe.

Before too long I'll also be given some Spawn a go, interested to see how they turn out after all the Spawn-bashing online.

gwarsh41
13-05-2010, 15:40
I have met plenty of people who get all high and mighty and say that the entire Chaos Daemon army is crap/broken/stupid. They always go on about how they can wipe my army off the table when I deep strike. Then I plop plaguebearers in front of them and they get really frustrated.

I have fought against possessed with my space wolves, they were pretty nasty. Unfortunately for them, it was my special CC oriented wolf guard they fought against. 10 multi meltas, 5 power weapons and MotW. I have been scoffed at more than once for alpha striking my wolf guard on these forums. If I play them like daemons, then there is not much of a problem.

GrogDaTyrant
13-05-2010, 15:49
Warbikes. No nob bikes... Warbikes.

I run an army of them, and the single 5-man unit of Nob bikes are nothing more than the distraction.

IGoblinego
13-05-2010, 16:34
Stormtrooper full 10 squad.

it really works against SM scoring units, I once DPed on Tactical squad with flamer and missile launcher, after 3 rounds there was only 2 stormtroopers left.

SonOfSquee
13-05-2010, 17:42
Placed 31st (110 teams) at the adepticon team tournament this year, and two of us had a 5 man unit of shining spears, and another player had two 5 man shining spear units.

Farseer Dave
13-05-2010, 17:54
Vypers.

People tend to obsess over how easy it is to kill them, but don't give them enough credit for what they can do.

Also, on a more general note, it seems people on the interwebz have very little imagination when it comes to units; everything seems to still revolve around the whole 'can this thing kill more points than I paid for it'-silliness.

Totally agree with this I for one field 3 units of 2 vypers in my Eldar army and they work out great! there Fluffy and Effective for my Jetbike army what more could a gamer ask for?

Some units (like for eg Vypers) just need to be used with a Degree of Imagination to get the best out of them , taking advantage of certain los tricks etc (in the case of Vypers). when used in this manner i find they often Perform far above how they are rated amongst many in the online community.

Farseer Dave.

VonManstein
13-05-2010, 18:32
None.

Yes I said it; none. Units which are rated overall as bad on the internet tend to be so in real. Not surprising as the internet is not only theorycrafting but also collects experience from players all over the world.

Threads like this arent too credible in my eyes. It seems to me that a lot of the suggestions in this thread arent really tested well, but merely performed well in a couple of games or for a couple of people.

Possessed performing allright? Sure, entirely possible. Do you know why people say they suck? Because Berzerkers will outperform them in the long run and not by a little...

Vypers allright? Yes they are not really bad. However you could run without them and do better overall.

A lot of choices arent bad when looked at them in a vacuum, its just that there are better choices available...Its the same reasoning as this: If you only read 2 books in your life; 1 should score an A+ and the other an F. The fact that the book which scored an F was enjoyable too doesnt matter. Scores/unit performance are relative and dependant on others.

The chance that there are quite some 'hidden pearls' is very slim. Not everyone 'copy and pastes' from the internet; everything gets tested. 40k scene is very 'open', knowledge is gladly traded with others.

bocaj
13-05-2010, 19:53
Pariah - OK i know they arent the best guys in a necron force but haveing assault 2 guns then charging ignoring all saves just annalates special characters, especialy ones with PFs or other low iniative guys. They always anniahlate my daemons :(

Project2501
13-05-2010, 20:06
Wraiths. These things are damn good at soaking up fire, 'getting there', and tieing up/slaughtering units.

genestealer_baldric
13-05-2010, 20:23
still cant do anything with the pyrovore though....yeah had to be said.

i disagree it makes an amazing paper weight

wazatdingder
13-05-2010, 20:41
Chaos SM Lesser Daemons.

A 65 point scoring unit that takes up no Force Org slots, can assault on the turn it Deep Strikes, has Space Marine WS, S, T, is Fearless and has a 5+ Invulnerable save (but no armour).

When used properly they can utterly ruin an opponent's careful planning.

This!!!

They are the salvation of any pure T-Sons force.

enygma7
13-05-2010, 22:11
None.

Yes I said it; none. Units which are rated overall as bad on the internet tend to be so in real. Not surprising as the internet is not only theorycrafting but also collects experience from players all over the world.


To a certain extent you are right, but in my experience the "wisdom of the internet" has some pretty big blind spots. For starters, units tend to be considered in terms of whether they are the "most optimal" choice, usually in an 'ard boys style environment. Units that may not be *the* most optimal choice but are still good seem to get ignored. Likewise units that work very well in certain metagames or against specific opponents, but not so well in super competetive tournaments also get overlooked.

Finally, and most crucially in my view, the internet lore seems to favour easy buttons that do not require a large degree of player skill to put to good use. A paralytic monkey can play 20 nob warbikers and win. Balanced armies and finesse units can be just as effective but actually require input from the player to be so.

darks23
13-05-2010, 22:22
None.
Threads like this arent too credible in my eyes. It seems to me that a lot of the suggestions in this thread arent really tested well, but merely performed well in a couple of games or for a couple of people.

Possessed performing allright? Sure, entirely possible. Do you know why people say they suck? Because Berzerkers will outperform them in the long run and not by a little....

What I'm interpatating here is that your saying that bezerkers and possed are exactly the same other than bezerkers typicaly do better. Well thats incorrect on the level of there not. True zerkers are scoring, have an extra initive on the charge, and have an extra attack, but Possesed have the option for an icon, have an extra point of strengh when not assautling, has a 5++, and have their random ablittly. So basically one can be better than the other in cetain situation. Oh an when you say that the internet is a collection of people sharing their advice and expirence I would like to say that "BoLs" had a poll asking it's users how often they played. 80% said less then one game a month.

Vlad Urkana
13-05-2010, 23:39
i disagree it makes an amazing paper weight

It also makes a sexier Biovore.

Gwyidion
14-05-2010, 00:23
<snip>

you heard it here first. Everything on the internet is correct.

TitusAndronicus
14-05-2010, 00:25
space marine tac squads. They get entirely too much **** when papered out, but mine always do just fine on the actual table.

Garven Dreis
14-05-2010, 00:25
I'm still a fan of the Leman Russ Vanquisher. Some people don't bother taking it, but I upgrade it with Pask, and I've always been able to kill pretty much most of the opponents tanks.

Gensuke626
14-05-2010, 01:17
Oh an when you say that the internet is a collection of people sharing their advice and expirence I would like to say that "BoLs" had a poll asking it's users how often they played. 80% said less then one game a month.

This is why I love living in Hawaii, I get in one game a week on average...

Wolf 11x
14-05-2010, 02:10
I have yet to figure out why everyone thinks Necron Warriors are so terrible. Mine always perform their role fantastically.

Gensuke626
14-05-2010, 02:28
I have yet to figure out why everyone thinks Necron Warriors are so terrible. Mine always perform their role fantastically.

They're basically expensive Chaos Space Marines that can (and usually will) get mowed down in Hand to Hand combat and have an auto-lose condition attached to their army if too many of them die. :rolleyes:

For me, it's not the warriors that are terrible, it's the army as a whole.

Dyrnwyn
14-05-2010, 02:41
I have yet to figure out why everyone thinks Necron Warriors are so terrible. Mine always perform their role fantastically.

In general, the Necron army as a whole is regarded poorly, Auto lose condition that's easily triggered, little anti-tank, and no longer as survivable as they once were. In terms of actual units within it with bad reputations, the most derided unit in the dex is the aptly named Pariah - twice the cost of a Warrior, half the survivability, none of the mobility, and some expensive CC equipment coupled with poor CC stats. Warriors aren't actively put down so much as they are simply lackluster.

I find that 'bad units' fall into two categories - those that are actively bad, as in there are crippling flaws in their use, heavily overcosted, etc. And those that are simply comparitively bad - there are simply options that are far better in the same FOC slot. Not that they cannot be used effectively, but using sub-optimal units requires a conscious decision and building a list to compensate for their flaws - they cannot be thrown randomly into a list as filler and expected to do okay.

Grox
14-05-2010, 04:53
You know what always gets called weak? Tankbustaz. But I've yet to be truly disappointed by the little rokkit toting shroomies.

QUOTE FOR TRUTH! Aside from glory hogs I can never understand why people tear these guys apart. And honestly...having to shoot at tanks isn't that major a downside...I mean its there job. And this when everyone claims orks have the worst anti-tank in the game (Its suffering I know...but a squad of these guys will generally make scrap out of whatever you wish to blow up) Oh...and play 'em against nids...and watch your opponent cry when his hive tyrant goes down in one round of shooting from a single squad. :D (done it 4 times to date...repeated it on trygons and carnifexes...I only ever one run squad...but they NEVER let me down)

And I do feel people put too much faith in some of these online opinions (because you can theoryhammer all you please but honestly no matter how many numbers you crunch its still just opinion.) obviously some of them have weight behind them...but IMO warhammer is a huge game of rock paper scissors. You try your best to guess what your opponents going to bring to the field and serve up his weakness...but sometimes even your uber unit of doom will meet its pair of scissors.

e2055261
14-05-2010, 05:06
^ too true. A lot of the naysaying for a particular unit comes from people who have never actually tried them. It just happens that stuff can look terrible on paper but performs well in reality.

Besides if you keep using the same stuff over and over your games are going to get pretty boring. Some of these so-called poor units look pretty fun to play...

Loki73
14-05-2010, 05:20
My sky claws kick but. So does my sanguinary guard army.

ReveredChaplainDrake
14-05-2010, 05:47
Anybody who knows my Night Lords (particularly the guys around the LGS) knows that I emphatically swear by Raptors. Who, admittedly, were the deciding X-factor that led me to a 3-0 clean sweep in the only tournament to date that I've ever actually won. (This thread seems to be all about fish stories, so there's mine.) That said though, a lot of the heavier lifting is done by the Lashprince and 2x2 Obliterators deep striking in with precision off the half-dozen Icons of Khorne I scatter around my army. And full-mech helps, too. The 16 Raptors I regularly field are my token "it's as fluffy as this cardboard-flavored codex gets" units that let me cheese off other parts of my list more blatantly, but with less guilt. (Lashes also mesh exceptionally well with Raptors. No one dares deploy right on that 24" Dawn of War deployment line a second time. ;))

Daemons, ever the tactical enigma, seem to have this really bad. Anybody who plays Daemons can put up that one anecdotal fish story about how they mauled their opponent, when in reality the dice were just being a bit nicer that day. Nobody talks about the time they lost Kairos on Turn 1 to some dork with a Bolt Pistol, thus breaking the back of their army, leading to a horrific smashing for the Daemons.

The "optimal" versus "okay" issue is closely tied to the OP's point. To illustrate this, if anybody asks, yes, I do believe that the Venomthrope can prove incredibly useful. That said though, considering the elephant-in-the-room flaw with Tyranids is their generally sucktacular anti-tank ability (particularly with transports, who give a flying hoot about precisely two results on the entire damage table) I would sooner fill that weakness with Hive Guard and Zoanthropes than waste my Elites slot on an effect that I could basically get by maneuvering my units into cover. In other words, I would use a Venomthrope brood if I had to, but my preference for building a take-all-comers list would lean toward the Hive Guard and Zoanthropes.

Gimp
14-05-2010, 06:44
A unit that gets out shined by Plague Marines and Khorne Beserkers is the trusty Chaos Marine squad.

10 with IoCG 2 Meltguns/Flamers and a Power Fist all wrapped up in a Rhino.

Its cheap, fast, shoots, fights and scores who can ask for more.

Campbell1988
14-05-2010, 10:05
A unit that gets out shined by Plague Marines and Khorne Beserkers is the trusty Chaos Marine squad.

10 with IoCG 2 Meltguns/Flamers and a Power Fist all wrapped up in a Rhino.

Its cheap, fast, shoots, fights and scores who can ask for more.

Feel No Pain?

And on the subject of Possessed...their few bonuses frankly do not outshine the things the Beserkers have over them. Yes they can kill something in combat but they won't be as likely to work well as Beserkers and cannot score. Really doesn't help that they're 5 points more expensive...

Raveners have proven quite surprisingly strong on the couple of occasions I've faced em. Buggers lost me the game twice but chewin up a few units when I ignored them.

Giganthrax
14-05-2010, 10:24
Everyone always has bad stuff to say about me squadroning my land speeders, and yet I've always found my squadrons work perfectly and on the whole survive a lot longer then single speeders.

VonManstein
14-05-2010, 18:43
Units that may not be *the* most optimal choice but are still good seem to get ignored.
Have you got an example maybe?


Likewise units that work very well in certain metagames or against specific opponents, but not so well in super competetive tournaments also get overlooked.
Well units which only works against certain oponents/metagame whatever arent good units in my definition of good, they should be good in allcomers builds. As soon as you start tailoring builds you are not talking about general effectiveness anymore.


Finally, and most crucially in my view, the internet lore seems to favour easy buttons that do not require a large degree of player skill to put to good use. A paralytic monkey can play 20 nob warbikers and win. Balanced armies and finesse units can be just as effective but actually require input from the player to be so.
To a certain extent that is true, these builds are a lot of times indeed the most popular/best known; but other good units are still known, there are enough good players for that. But again example maybe? I can be wrong of course.


What I'm interpatating here is that your saying that bezerkers and possed are exactly the same other than bezerkers typicaly do better.
No, just that they are roughly the same and that there is no gaming reason why tournement players would take possesed over berzerkers.


So basically one can be better than the other in cetain situation.
In the long run Berzerkers perform overall better, that is what matters for good units/lists. You dont want a unit which may perform really well sometimes or just plain bad other times. It doesnt matter that Possessed have some advantages over Berzerkers, its about the whole package and what you need from a unit.


Oh an when you say that the internet is a collection of people sharing their advice and expirence I would like to say that "BoLs" had a poll asking it's users how often they played. 80% said less then one game a month
Why do you listen to that 80%? 'Opinions' which can be proven wrong, will be proven wrong by good players. 'Opinions' which cannot be proven wrong, wont because they are 'true'. There are enough good players who can support their opinions with a mathhammer/tournement experience/plain logic and many times a combination of both, those same people tend to prove others wrong too when they are wrong. Its not that hard to note the difference between people who know what they are talking about and the people who say things without any real backup/logic behind it.


you heard it here first. Everything on the internet is correct.
Lol, thats sneaky:p I didnt say that and you know it;)

darks23
15-05-2010, 05:20
Look I know that in general units that are peferred on the internet are general better in real life, however internet orphan units can some sometimes and will often fit better in certain list. Bezerkers are a better packege than possesed, but in an army that needs a longer lasting assualt unit a possesed squad with icon of Nurgle is a better choice than a zerker squad. As for your internet argument I completly agree, and do you know who supports any capble unit? Those people. Almost any well constructed tactical article will explane the uses of all units no matter how bad. People who are into math hammer usually go for the uber unit.

Born Again
15-05-2010, 13:06
To a certain extent you are right, but in my experience the "wisdom of the internet" has some pretty big blind spots. For starters, units tend to be considered in terms of whether they are the "most optimal" choice, usually in an 'ard boys style environment. Units that may not be *the* most optimal choice but are still good seem to get ignored. Likewise units that work very well in certain metagames or against specific opponents, but not so well in super competetive tournaments also get overlooked.

Finally, and most crucially in my view, the internet lore seems to favour easy buttons that do not require a large degree of player skill to put to good use. A paralytic monkey can play 20 nob warbikers and win. Balanced armies and finesse units can be just as effective but actually require input from the player to be so.

These are words of wisdom, heed them well.

genestealer_baldric
16-05-2010, 21:31
QUOTE FOR TRUTH! Aside from glory hogs I can never understand why people tear these guys apart. And honestly...having to shoot at tanks isn't that major a downside...I mean its there job. And this when everyone claims orks have the worst anti-tank in the game (Its suffering I know...but a squad of these guys will generally make scrap out of whatever you wish to blow up) Oh...and play 'em against nids...and watch your opponent cry when his hive tyrant goes down in one round of shooting from a single squad. :D (done it 4 times to date...repeated it on trygons and carnifexes...I only ever one run squad...but they NEVER let me down)

And I do feel people put too much faith in some of these online opinions (because you can theoryhammer all you please but honestly no matter how many numbers you crunch its still just opinion.) obviously some of them have weight behind them...but IMO warhammer is a huge game of rock paper scissors. You try your best to guess what your opponents going to bring to the field and serve up his weakness...but sometimes even your uber unit of doom will meet its pair of scissors.

stick them in an opentoped viechal and your laughing.

burna boyz and lootas look avergae at best on paper but in game they are absolutley amazing.

Worsle
16-05-2010, 22:45
Vypers.

People tend to obsess over how easy it is to kill them, but don't give them enough credit for what they can do.

Also, on a more general note, it seems people on the interwebz have very little imagination when it comes to units; everything seems to still revolve around the whole 'can this thing kill more points than I paid for it'-silliness.

See the thing is vypers are pretty much as bad as people make out only, just they have a couple of points that makes them worth taking after all. The first is the fast attack section for eldar is pretty much a wash for mech eldar (ie competitive eldar) so they are not taking slots from anything useful. The second is the fact that as the cheapest fast skimmer the eldar have you can preform tasks you can't or just don't want other units to do.

However they are still just low quality land speeders or even piranhas and cost far to much for what you get. Still you make do with what you get.

Now if I was to pick some thing I would be tempted to nominate the whole Tau or Nid codexes but I think that is cheating and both of them have some units I would not want to use either. So I think I will say the harpy, a flying MC in the fast attack slot with a S9 gun but he gets no love witch is kind of sad.