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EnternalVoid
17-11-2011, 05:28
I have taken the BoEF on Swordmasters several times and rarely have they let me down due to a character with a 2+ vs fire attacks. Generally it is because they don't have said item or they are with a unit and I can just attack it instead. They did tally up a couple regenerating monsters because of this though, the best being 4 of them with mindrazor taking down a hydra *It had marched to one side of them and killed like 8-10 of them with is breath before this*.

Generally I am not a fan of putting it on a shooting unit as I rarely take them in any number that warrants it. That will likely change when I get around to trying out a 30 archer unit after reading an interesting tactic on it a while back on a high elf forum.

Althwen
17-11-2011, 11:09
That will likely change when I get around to trying out a 30 archer unit after reading an interesting tactic on it a while back on a high elf forum.

Please don't say you're going for a massive block of 30-40 archers and use them as an anvil....
I don't play High Elves myself, but my mate who does tried this strategy a couple of times. And every time he found out that:

a) Archers aren't an anvil and never will be an anvil, no matter how many you take. They have no armour, no spears and in huge numbers are nothing more that a huge point drain.

b) Any spells affecting single units now hit all of your archers at the same time. Reduce ballistic skill of 40 archers instead of 10? Yes, plz.

c) You just turned 3 or 4 units who weren't worth going after due to their scattered position and low point values, into a massive victory points conglomeration!

d) Oh, and you see that Mangler Squig coming for your lines? You might wanna shoot him...but isn't 40 arrows overdoing it a bit?

Pulstar
17-11-2011, 13:45
I read that same thread, and I also don't think you can use big Archer units as anvils. This has more to do with them being HE then anything else. (Spearmen aren't good anvils either)

The current HE army is about maneuverability and the precise application of overwhelming force. Our troops are to expensive to get into a war of attrition with anyone. We redirect, we don't anvil.

But a big unit of Archers does has it's uses. Like all other HE core, they are overpriced at what they do. But 30" shooting at BS 4 is good, and with the right buff lore it can be great.

+1 to wound (fire) or +1 to hit w/ AP (metal) buffs turn big units of archers into a problem for most people. And a horde of Mindrazor'ed Archers will kill just as much as mindrazor'ed spearmen (since spearmen should never be in a horde) in hth.

Francis
17-11-2011, 21:48
I don't think HEs should horde anything other than WLs and the only units I could justify having 40 of is spears or LSG (LSG in wider formation than the spears).

EnternalVoid
18-11-2011, 05:50
Please don't say you're going for a massive block of 30-40 archers and use them as an anvil....


First off I said 30, not 30-40, there is actually reasons to that.

You would have to read the article to get it completely but no, you are not using them as an 'Anvil'. Effectively it was about the person designing his list with certain things in mind. So rather than just a stand alone unit, like 30 White Lions often become, it is an idea for an army structure that contains this unit.

To highlight some of your points, yes while a single spell might hurt the shooting of the archers, if you are taking this likely you are taking it because you can get the spells that can help them. A big unit can be effected by a single buff just as it can be effected by a single debuff.

As for the mangler squig, he actually brought that thought up as well. It is what, 65pt? You shoot it dead and you just made back about a 5th of the unit's cost in a single turn. Also unlike other damage, you get the points strait out, rather than doing half damage to a unit and risk it surviving till the end of the game and denying you those points. Of course you could always have other ways to kill it in a list but the idea of the article was options and having them.

Also the fact that it is suddenly in their eyes 'worth going after' was part of the idea. With the threat of proper magic support and shooting, something worth something actually has to go after the unit, and if artillery is directed at them it is not directed at your elite units. And while it sounds expensive, it is actually only 350pt, you are likely having to take 500-625 points of core anyway and unlike 3 units of 10, they are not easy pray to buffed up fireballs and warmachine hunters.

I get your reaction, it was much the reaction I had the first few seconds thinking about it was very well thought out and actually has deep tactical notions. The article was on the Ulthuan.net forum.

Pulstar
18-11-2011, 15:18
What is the latest thoughts on High Elf MSU armies?

I was thinking of running a list with 3 10 man Archer units and two each of Lion Chariots, eagles, and 6 man Silver Helm (run 3x2) units. A few mages, a BSB, 30 spear, and 21 WL with BoS round out the list.

That's 12 drops. If you drop the archers and eagles first, you should start seeing where you want to put your hammers down. (the LC and WL)

I'm not sure the smaller Silver helm unit will work. But at 145 (w/ Mus) points, with 6 St 5 attacks on the charge and a 2+ armor save with a small foot print, it seems like a nice mix of speed, hitting power and durability.

Reavers would be faster, but they don't hit near as hard and evaporate when some thing looks at them.

Five Dragon Prince are about the same cost, hit harder, but have one less wound and no Mus. They also have to run 5 wide to max attacks, which also means that they will take more attacks.

Francis
20-11-2011, 09:32
I see all your points Pulstar but I guess that I would still go with the Dragon princes, due to their higher WS and 10 attacks rather than 6. It is a really big difference in my book.

EnternalVoid
20-11-2011, 22:39
More and more armies are starting to include one or two easy drops in their army, likely due to some scenerios have set rolls to see who goes first or set who goes first. I generally have 3 eagles myself to handle much of the initial drops but even then I have been finding people able to almost drop per drop with me. Alot of people have experience dealing with it.

I have to agree with Francis, for another 42 points per unit you can really up the attack output of each of those Cav units. Silver Helm strike me as better when you start trying to get large units of them and don't want to pay the points for a large unit of Dragon Princes.

gilljoy
21-11-2011, 09:33
Guys, I'm picking up the High Elf army deal when it comes out at the end of the month.

How good a deal is the army set? Thinking of picking it up, the army book and a mage box.

Any particular lores that favour elves abit more? Or should I stick with High magic?

Francis
21-11-2011, 10:34
I think the new army deal looks like a great buy, and I would certainly pick up a Mage box to go with it. I would also buy the Prince box set as well and a 10 unit more of WLs. Do that and you got a working army.

As for lore. I like High Magic alot, but it might be better to run a lvl 2 with it rather than your lvl 4. Of other lores Life and Shadow are considered to be the best lores for high elves, but try Fire in small games. For myself I mostly use shadow and high, but substitute high for Life in tournaments (yes I am a bastard) not that I play in many. Recently however I have been tempted to take Heaven with my lvl 4 Navigator in my seaguard list, mostly for fluff reasons (He needs wind blast to move the ship faster) but also because I think it might work out, besides Harmonic Convergence look pretty good on all those seaguard shots and attacks.

Bladelord
21-11-2011, 10:53
With my minimal experience of 8th ed. I've found Lore of Life to be exceptionally good to make your elite units tough to take down, Shadow to boost your spearelves, Death on a Prince for sniping can be kinda funny &/or Beast on a lvl.2 to boost your survivability+offensive ability. High Magic's an awesome lore overall so you could stick with it.

Btw fellow Asur. What do you think about this Dragon riding prince build:

Prince, great weapon, Armour of Caledor, Opal Amulet, Jewel of the Dusk, the Radiant Gem of Hoeth, Moon/Star Dragon.

The Prince will take Life & the idea behnd it is casting the signature spell to give the dragon a 5+ reg(2+ ward if it's flaming;)) & the attribute will heal the dragon.

gilljoy
21-11-2011, 11:24
Brilliant,

looks like I'll have alot of models left over from building a 1000pts list. Still not 100% sure which army to go for yet but high elves are looking nice

Pyriel
21-11-2011, 13:26
a friend of me asked me of an idea for an MSU approach:

lvl 4 High mage, annulian crystal-300 pts

BSB, barded steed, dragon armour & great weapon, phoenix guardian-165 pts

10 x Archers-110
10 x Archers-110
30 x Lothern Sea Guard, shields & full command & gleaming pendant-420

30 x White Lions , full command & banner of sorcery & amulet of light-545 pts

5 x Dragon Princes, w/ full command, banner of ellyrion-215 pts

5 x Dragon Princes, w/full command, banner of eternal flame-210 pts

Repeater Bolt Thrower-100 pts
Repeater Bolt Thrower-100 pts
Repeater Bolt Thrower-100 pts

2495 pts

what do you guys think?...

Pulstar
21-11-2011, 15:38