PDA

View Full Version : Tactica: High Elves in 8th edition



Pages : 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 [11]

Trains_Get_Robbed
22-08-2012, 08:14
Hm Life magic synergies very well with my silver helm character delivery system and swordmasters. And I know plenty of other people use both life and shadow (Without teclic or boh) with reasonable success for a mid-tier army so not quite sure what Trains_Get_Robbed is on about.

And while I have no tournament experience with high elves yet all of my gaming group somehow managed to stack up on all the filth over the years. I play skaven, lizardmen, chaos, daemons, dark elves and vampire counts most regularly. Only thing I'm still blessed from is the joyful ogre lists I see people grumbling about.

First off, I think the word "success" is very undefined from person to person, what you view as success and I view as success are most likely completely different . If you research/interested in G.Ts and the tournament scene, there has been one tournament that I personally know of in the Mid-West (G.T level) that I know of that has had a H.E general place in the top ten. Cavalierly stating that you don't know what I'm talking about and then later stating your not much of a tournament player is backwards no? :eyebrows: Not to mention that you still feel Life magic is good for H.E, frankly shows that your way of thinking is behind, or just skewed towards your personal/local metagame -which isn't a bad thing, just different.

I' am curious as to why you chose Life magic for a Silver Helm bus. Life magic is seemingly a far-back number two behind Beasts for Cav. lists to me as S.Hs already have a +2 save ie; don't need protection, rather help with killing? Would Beasts not be better? Especially since you can make the "delivery system" actually kill something after the charge with S4, while incidentally boosting their toughness as well? Amber Spear is there for picking off high priority targets like Hydras/Hpas and the like, Curse can hold a unit in place for your large Cav. bus to hit home -dictating where and when you want to fight- while also providing a -1 hit in C.C ("you have all that strength and nothing to do with it" [+1 internetz for guessing the movie] when you can't hit). Meanwhile, Horrors and Pelt will make your characters even more of a monster in combat, thus Beasts seems like a better choice than Life, Life having the ability to heal wounds on characters realistically being it's only edge over beasts.

MR. GRUMPY
22-08-2012, 12:32
First off, I think the word "success" is very undefined from person to person, what you view as success and I view as success are most likely completely different . If you research/interested in G.Ts and the tournament scene, there has been one tournament that I personally know of in the Mid-West (G.T level) that I know of that has had a H.E general place in the top ten. Cavalierly stating that you don't know what I'm talking about and then later stating your not much of a tournament player is backwards no? :eyebrows: Not to mention that you still feel Life magic is good for H.E, frankly shows that your way of thinking is behind, or just skewed towards your personal/local metagame -which isn't a bad thing, just different.

I' am curious as to why you chose Life magic for a Silver Helm bus. Life magic is seemingly a far-back number two behind Beasts for Cav. lists to me as S.Hs already have a +2 save ie; don't need protection, rather help with killing? Would Beasts not be better? Especially since you can make the "delivery system" actually kill something after the charge with S4, while incidentally boosting their toughness as well? Amber Spear is there for picking off high priority targets like Hydras/Hpas and the like, Curse can hold a unit in place for your large Cav. bus to hit home -dictating where and when you want to fight- while also providing a -1 hit in C.C ("you have all that strength and nothing to do with it" [+1 internetz for guessing the movie] when you can't hit). Meanwhile, Horrors and Pelt will make your characters even more of a monster in combat, thus Beasts seems like a better choice than Life, Life having the ability to heal wounds on characters realistically being it's only edge over beasts.

When I said I have seen others do reasonable well I meant top 5 standings in tournaments. So while I have no used my HE in tournaments myself others have with as I said reasonably good results for a mid-tier army. And keep in mind I am talking without the crutch that is teclic and boh because those are always banned around here. So I would not say my thinking is behind, no.

The silver helm bus is a delivery system for my killy lord and bsb, that has been enough killing power so far. Life, regrowth in particular, lets me grind all day until I can break most things. Furthermore +2 (Or even +4) T and the ability to bring swordmasters back is just brutal. Not to speak of the constant threat of dwellers. Life is on a another level for high elves compared to beasts. Beast have one spell going for them, With life I find I can hold points much better, and high elves offensive is good as is when you use SM and WL. The 5+ regeneration also comes in very handy versus shooty armies.

Oh and I forgot, what kind of HE army need help with HPA and Hydras in the form of amber spear? They are free points for my lord.

Xyon
01-09-2012, 14:25
I was looking through the BRB magic items, and some of the HE magic items. Has anyone tried using a Prince with a +attacks sword and potion of strength, other tricksters shard, or talisman of loec? You could probably even play two princes in the same army, both with +3 attack magic swords, and then take two of those three magic items to make for a few nasty rounds of combat, especially if backed up by a lvl 2 mage with seer staff, lore of beast, with wysan wildform and the savage beast of horros. Maybe a second level 2 with silver wand and some other lore like high magic or metal.

They could really add some good punch to a DP or SH unit and them becoming cav would make it easier for the lvl 2 beast to cast the boosts on the unit/characters.

Montegue
06-09-2012, 14:14
For what it's worth, a High Elf player took Overall at the Quake City Rumble event, and the Book of Hoeth was not allowed.

ScItRiX
10-09-2012, 14:21
Well, the tournament has come and gone, and things did not go well. I suffered a minor loss against chaos dwarves. Mainly due to not stopping a destroyer before it got to my sword masters (He hid it behind a bulding!). I still kept up the fight, banished away a hell cannon, magma cannon, and slaying his general. Light speed and pha's is just awesome. Second game I massacered a chaos warrior army. He had no chosen, warshrines, but he had two 50 man blocks of TZ marauders. Swordmasters made up for themselves by killing 35 of 50 in one round. Game ended when I combo charged his dimished warrior block in the flank and rear with sword masters, spearmen, while he was held up by phoneix guard. Last game was against brets. Game was fairly even until the 4th turn. I had banished away two units of knights of the relm, and a damsel. Sword masters charged another unit of knights, obliterated it, spunt to face another, but this allowed for a flank charge by pegasus knights. Whiffed combat, lost by 1, promptly rolled box cars, and had 500pts of swordmasters run down. To add insult to injury next turn my phoneix guard bunker gets charged, I only loose 3 in the fight, fail my leadership test again, and that concludes that game as I got wiped out.

Post game, had I simply cast light of battle in the last game, I would have turned a massacre into a draw, which would have sent me from 5th to 3rd. However I tried to win, not draw. Coven is a great style, but I really think white lions are a must, if just for the stubbon. Ring of Corin is also a very valuable tool. Out of the 5 other players, all of them had valuable targets. If taking an item that raises your level 4 to a +5 to cast and dispel you can get away without a crystal, at least at lower points levels. At 2500pts+ take the crystal too. All in all I had a great time, and getting 16 bashment hits on a hellcannon, and 14 hits on knights of the relm was just fun.

Live and learn.

Bladelord
17-09-2012, 08:43
Me & a couple of friends of mine's tinkering on deathstars just for fun & I got interested in what kind of units people here in the High Elf thread would bring.

So if you were gonna take a big bad scary unit full of characters with shiny things, what would you take? lets say 2400pts & tool up the heroes like crazy, no restrictions except for Special Characters. Argument for every magic item & why you chose that specific unit to put your mighty bling bling heroes in.:p

Edit:
Wops forgot to mention my 2 cents:

1st cent:
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?352513-Savage-elves-of-Horros-2400pts
Cast +3 str/atk to make the nobles into beasts, kinda vulnerable to insta death spells and any models that might be left to hit the unit.

2nd cent:

Death/Life Archmage, lvl.4, Elven Steed, Book of Hoeth/Annulian Crystal & Crown of Command.
Prince, great weapon, dragon armour, barded Elven Steed, Helm of Fortune, Opal Amulet, Talisman of Loec.
Noble, BSB, lance, shield, dragon armour, barded Elven Steed, Banner of the World Dragon.
Noble, great weapon, dragon armour, barded Elven Steed, Temakador's Gauntlets, Amulet of Light.
Noble, great weapon, heavy armour, barded Elven Steed, Dragonhelm, Luckstone.
Noble, lance, dragon armour, shield, barded Elven Steed.
As many Silver Helms you can field or Dragon Princes if you want to trade bodies for Banner of Sorcery.


Book of Hoeth to guarantee snipes/soulblight aura/Purple Sun / Lore of Life to make sure the Nobles stay alive but then [insert arcane item] & Crown of Command might be the better choice.
Talisman of Loec to try getting rid of threats like Sword of Anti-Heroes or stuff that can stall the unit.
Banner of the World Dragon so you don't care about offensive magic+Purple Sun abuse.
Amulet of Light vs Ethereals.
Rest of the items are just for survivability.
I skipped Crown of Command cause I thought the unit will be able to take care of anything but other deathstars.

Should this be in the tactics or army list forum?

Rick
23-09-2012, 09:03
I play a lvl 4 shadows, wearing just an annulian crystal, a lvl 2 beasts with a scroll and the fireball bound spell BRB item (only missile I have to damage small ethereal units). That next to a BSB with a world dragon banner

My core consists of 36 spear elves with my lvl 4, and 22 archers with a flaming banner. Sometimes my lvl 2 hides in here, but if my opponent does not have a lot of shooting or cannons I let him walk around as a single model (hiding behind the phoenix guard)

The BSB is fielded in a unit of 28 lions, with +1Ld banner and amulet of light. This way you're stubborn on Ld10, and ethereals wont pin your 500+ point unit down

Next to that unit I have 25 phoenix guard with a banner and a musician. Banner of sorcery here! This unit is beast when supported by the lvl 2 with the beasts signature. A lot of my opponents under estimate them.

This next to two eagles and a bolt thrower. Yes a bolt thrower! It makes people want to hide their big monsters and worry about their knights' flanks. It's only 100 points. People either choose to ignore it or make sure it's dead by turn one. In that case they don't kill your eagles and don't kill your expensive units. I like it!

Glen_Savet
23-09-2012, 14:17
You cannot have the leadership banner and the amulet both on the bsb.

Solonor
24-09-2012, 14:48
You cannot have the leadership banner and the amulet both on the bsb.

i think he was saying that his BSB was in a 28 WL unit with the +1 ld banner and a champion with amulet of light. the BSB himself has the banner of the World dragon.

Rick
25-09-2012, 20:19
i think he was saying that his BSB was in a 28 WL unit with the +1 ld banner and a champion with amulet of light. the BSB himself has the banner of the World dragon.

Yep! Exactly that! It's a nice combi :)

Laniston
27-09-2012, 22:24
I am toying with an idea right now and wouldn't mind some feedback. (first post too... wee!)

What I am imagining is a "unit" of eagles which would include (in an army less than 3000 points) 4 eagles taken from the rare choices and then 2 or 3 barebones nobles with GWs, heavy armour, and possibly longbows and also mounted on eagles. I guess lances and shields wouldn't be too bad either for that extra armour. I feel like great eagles offer good protection since they count as a monstrous mount. Also my thinking is that I would likely group the eagles together initially and move them up in a clump on one flank and either focus on targets together or perhaps splitting off into smaller groups to take out warmachines or isolated vanguards/scouts. Ideally they would be able to charge multiple targets simultaneously in several directions and then regroup afterwards to be in the rear when the main force arrives. The upside to taking so many eagles as a "unit" is that they would present some intimidation, and also they are not technically a unit and each eagle has to be targeted separately and each moves independently of each other. This means charges would all be rolled individually but with swiftstride that shouldn't be too big a concern.

Has anyone tried something like this before? To me it seems like it would be really fun.

Citadel97501
27-09-2012, 22:41
It could be fun, but I am wary of the value compared to other lists, however after saying that I can see the following...Which is expensive at somewhere around 700 points, but could be a lot of fun and is surprising as hell...

-Archmage with Lore of Beasts
-Level 4
-Great Eagle
-Seer staff of Saphery, Talisman of Preservation

Noble
-Armor of Silvered Steel
-Great Weapon
-Great Eagle

Noble
-Armor of Caledor
-Shield
-Great Weapon
-Great Eagle

Laniston
28-09-2012, 17:43
Well.. I may try something like that out. I just heard from my friend who works at a game shop that my 4 eagles I ordered are in. Just so happens to be warhammer day there too.

Tarian
01-10-2012, 16:29
That many eagles would run similar to a Brettonian Pegasus list, which is strong, but runs into problems with large blocks, especially since you'll never knock steadfast out. Against the right opponents, it would be great, but against things like a Chosenstar or something similar, you're down to points denial, as you have no CR against the big blocks. Even large groups of cheap infantry could probably grind them out.

That said, I'm interested to see how it works, if HE can pull off an Airforce type army.

jayg1357
18-10-2012, 09:40
what sort of tactics are people using to proctect their heavy hitting units as i never really like playing a game with out a unit of dragon princes but although i can protect them from magic its shooting what concerns me mainly from dwarfs and skaven as i play them most the time. any hints on how i can go around protecting them?

Bladelord
18-10-2012, 09:54
Eliminate the threat before it eliminates you or blind them with Pha's aura.

Laniston
21-10-2012, 00:52
That many eagles would run similar to a Brettonian Pegasus list, which is strong, but runs into problems with large blocks, especially since you'll never knock steadfast out. Against the right opponents, it would be great, but against things like a Chosenstar or something similar, you're down to points denial, as you have no CR against the big blocks. Even large groups of cheap infantry could probably grind them out.

That said, I'm interested to see how it works, if HE can pull off an Airforce type army.

Right now I am fighting with getting my new eagle models to stay together. I tried to magnetize the flying stems so I could remove them for storage but the model is too heavy and it turns out that my cordless drill isn't powerful enough to go through rare earth magnet :/ One of the eagles really has a couple stuck somewhere unpleasant.

Anyways I am going to get them all sorted out and then I will let you know how it goes with my air force. I even "fortuitously" dropped and broke an old mounted prince I don't use and now I have a spare mounted hero model to stick on an eagle.

Considering that the new FAQ lets the mounted characters use the eagle's T4 I think it's going to be even better than before. T4 W3 flying nobles with 2 more attacks and a stomp? Yes please.

Calathean
24-10-2012, 10:48
Here is my 2 cents. The list below is pretty much only if you want to pummel your opponents into submission but the basis of the list can be tinkered to still make it fun. It involves busting out the big man that is Teclis.

Teclis - 475 Points
Noble - 185 Points
BsB
World Dragon Banner
Great Weapon and Dragon Armour

Sea Guard x 20 - 285 Points
Command

Sea Guard x 20 - 295 Points
Command, Banner of Eternal Flame

White Lions x 32 - 560 Points
Command, Banner of Sorcery

Bolt Thrower - 100 Points
Bolt Thrower - 100 Points


So with this I would put Teclis in the White Lions with the BSB, so that is over 1200 Points that is immune to magic!! Take that Dwellers Below!! With the White Lions having a 3+ Save against shooting, bows and handguns tend not to touch them really. Then with Teclis choosing his Lore at the start of the Game, with he and the Banner of Sorcery generating an additional D3 Power Dice each, the magic phase is in the bag. Then with the 2 Sea Guard Units holding the White Lion flanks and dishing out 40 Shots from their bows accompanied by the Rank Piercing Shots from the Bolt Throwers, the shooting phase is yours to dominate. Finally should combat happen you've got not only 30 S6 ASF hits from your Lions, you then have 4 S6 hits from your BSB and Teclis can take down Champions worst comes to it.

However the last time I played this list, my Sea Guard ran away which then caused the White Lions to bug out and 1600 Points of my army naffed off by the end of turn 2...DOH!

Citadel97501
24-10-2012, 11:03
I am really surprised you went for the White Lions, since Phoenix Guards are ridiculously good.

Calathean
24-10-2012, 12:16
I am really surprised you went for the White Lions, since Phoenix Guards are ridiculously good.

When they are immune to magic the Ward Save is almost pointless and I cannot buff them so they are only S4 White Lions with S6 Attacks works out the best possible option. I test PG because they are my favourite but they just cannot dish out enough damage in combat. However if you drop the banner and give Teclis beasts it would work.

Sparowl
24-10-2012, 14:38
That 4+ ward protects them pretty well in CC, giving them survivability above the White Lions. As a bodyguard unit, I'd prefer PG. After all, your hitting power is coming from shooting.

Calathean
24-10-2012, 15:26
Hmm this is true but the Killing Power really comes from that magic and bolt throwers. The Sea Guard bows are only strength 3 so they aren't up to much. My only issue with PG is that they are S4 so on average they won't kill much, especially if its armored. Where with White Lions they rarely need to worry about taking damage because everyone is dead.

Citadel97501
24-10-2012, 23:04
When they are immune to magic the Ward Save is almost pointless and I cannot buff them so they are only S4 White Lions with S6 Attacks works out the best possible option. I test PG because they are my favourite but they just cannot dish out enough damage in combat. However if you drop the banner and give Teclis beasts it would work.

With Phoenix Guard, I always give Teclis the Lore of Life, for Regrowth and the other spell buffs which is how I apply more damage.
-Toughness 7, Strength 4 hits during magic phase, Regrowth to get them back, and Dwellers Below on the enemies units.
-Toughness 5, Teclis is extremely helpful considering he doesn't have a save.

Phoenix Guard, with Lore of Beasts
-I don't think this is very helpful frankly, since it won't let you defend Teclis unless you choose to turn him into a dragon or something.

Calathean
25-10-2012, 09:48
The thing of it, with the White Lions immune to magic there is very little I need to defend him against. When it comes down to it if there is much enemy left for him to be concerned about by the time the White Lions get into combat things have gone pretty wrong anyway. I can see your point with the PG but that Ward to me see redundant. I did some test rolling last night. 30 WoC as they are pretty much the most popular thing I face and the White Lions killed 18 and lost 10. Where as the PG killed 8 and only lost 5. I found that S4 just does nothing against most armies I play against.

However it is each to their own. The above stuff I have written does make me sad however as PG are my favourite unit out of 3 HE special choices that are epic.

Anardakil
25-10-2012, 20:58
What are your thoughts on a high elves mirror matchup? What would you take in the list and do you have any tactical tips? Also what magic lores do you think would work best? This will be in a comped environment so there'll be no Teclis and no Book of Hoeth etc.

Citadel97501
25-10-2012, 21:11
Ah well if your meta game is heavily bent towards WOC White Lions are definitely a good idea.

jayg1357
31-10-2012, 14:14
so im gonna make 2 different list at 2000 points one being fast advance the other more defencive. for the fast advance army how many chariots would be to many as dragon princes are a fave of mine the idea of a few chariots running round flannking and suporting the dragon princes seemed a good idea i have 2 white lion chariots and one tironic but has anyone else used a simluar tactic to this?

Laniston
31-10-2012, 19:59
so im gonna make 2 different list at 2000 points one being fast advance the other more defencive. for the fast advance army how many chariots would be to many as dragon princes are a fave of mine the idea of a few chariots running round flannking and suporting the dragon princes seemed a good idea i have 2 white lion chariots and one tironic but has anyone else used a simluar tactic to this?

I love the idea of using cavalry and chariots. I also like the challenge of having to learn to use cav and chariots with finesse. The way 8th is it seems almost mandatory that if you take cavalry you must take some kind of supporting force with it and chariots are a good fit since they move at relatively the same speed(chariots can't march) and add that little bit of extra combat rez so the opponent is the one taking break tests instead of you (even if they are steadfast, you never know). I think it's totally doable to field an aggressive, mounted HE army and with practice get very good at using it. My dream for the next HE army book is the return of the option to take Silver Helms as core.

boli
31-10-2012, 21:38
Silverhelms AND T-Chariots as core..... that would be something to see!

Of course it'll never happen...

cptcosmic
02-11-2012, 13:27
I would rather like to see our core get some small buffs & silver helms getting ithilmar barding back, WS5 and remain in special. Reavers would make alot more sense as core than silver helms. silver helms are the nobility of ulthuan, basically the rich elves bringing their own stuff into combat (and due to their wealth are more likely to enjoy a better education for combat). reavers are just regular HE that spend alot of time on horses patrolling all over ulthuan.

Kahadras
03-11-2012, 18:10
I agree that Reavers should go to core. Silver Helms should remain as a special choice but should get a couple of small buffs to make them an attractive prospect when compared to Dragon Princes. I'd bump their WS and Ld up, give them the abililty to carry a 50 point banner, give their champion access to a 25p magic item and give them magical attacks. My reasoning is that the Silver Helms are supposed to be young High Elf Nobles so they'd bring along heirlooms of their respective houses. I'd probably pull the magic banner and champion magic items option from the Dragon Princes.

Therefore Dragon Princes hit harder with their extra attack but Silver Helms are more flexible and have access to more gear. Id look to start off Silver Helms as having a lance and light armour and allow them to buy up barding, heavy armour and shields. Therefore they can be built as light, medium or heavy cavalry.

Kahadras

Asuryan's Spear
12-11-2012, 03:43
okay citizens of warseer, this has probably been covered in the 120+ pages of the thread but: RBTs and archers- what do you think of them?

Azaireal
12-11-2012, 05:21
okay citizens of warseer, this has probably been covered in the 120+ pages of the thread but: RBTs and archers- what do you think of them?

Al-a-carte, underwhelming.
Avec magic, from ok to game winning depending on lore choice and other magic related issues.

sainthale1988
14-11-2012, 21:47
Hi Guys,

I also started a new topic in the podcast section but thought it might be worthwile posting here too.

been a long time since i posted in this hallowed place but i've started a WHFB podcast! been going really well and our 6th episode 'High Elves Review with Ian Sturgess' is avaliable now.

direct download from here http://6dicemonkeys.co.uk/high-elves...ster-sturgess/

you can also find us on itunes by searching for 6 dice monkeys in the store.

hope you like it and i welcome any feedback .

cheers!

Tom

MR. GRUMPY
17-11-2012, 22:12
okay citizens of warseer, this has probably been covered in the 120+ pages of the thread but: RBTs and archers- what do you think of them?

Can synergy well with high and shadow magic. I have a list with all archer core, 2 RTBs, Level 4 high mage, level 2 shadow with seerstaff, a PG unit with bsb and the potential to buff its killing potential with shadow in combat, a more self-reliant white lions unit and some other bits and pieces.

Drashe
12-12-2012, 13:31
The conversation thus far


I'm pretty sure this is illegal. Jewel of Dusk and Dispel Scroll are both Arcane Items.



This character also has two Arcane Items, you also can't take multiples of the same magic item so I'm pretty sure all three Mages are illegal at this point.

I'd be really concerned if I was running an army like this. It has no redirectors, no missile support and a very limited amount of mobility. There almost nothing you can do to dictate the pace of the game. There's nothing to threaten enemy warmachines. Nothing to drive away enemy light cavalry. Nothing to combat enemy shooting units.

I really don't want to be too negative but I seriously think the list could do with reworking. Take some Archers to deal with chaff units. Take a couple of Eagles or a couple of units of Reavers to block off enemy combat units. At the end of the day the army is 5 blocks of Toughness 3 infantry and a small unit of heavy cavalry. Kill off the Dragon Princes and suddenly the army is down to infantry.

Ok your opponant will have to accept the fact that he's going to probably take a bit of damage in the magic phase but I'd say on average he's going to be facing a 10 dice magic phase so the Archmage is probably only going to get off a couple of irrisitable spells every turn.

Kahadras


Missle support is not needed, and archers are a joke. Str 3 bows are more than useless, they are a detriment for the points you pay for an archer.

So lets say 10 archers because thats how most people field archers (I don't know why, they do they just do) vs toughness 3 with a 5+ save.

10 shots at 4's to hit for 5 hits
5 hits at 4's to wound for 2.5 wounds
2.5 wounds at a 5+ save for 1.666 unsaved wounds

This is a pretty common preformance and lets just assume they are going to shoot 3 times in a game for a total of 5-7 wounds done in a game. The extra 2 wounds come from shooting at short range instead of long.

Now lets say that unit is against toughness 4 with a 5+ save

10 shots at 4's to hit for 5 hits
5 hits at 5's to wound for 1.667 wounds
1.667 wounds with a 5+ save for .5557 unsaved wounds.
3 rounds of shooting for a total of 2 unsaved wounds per game.

You can make what ever you want from the numbers but I think that's pretty poor preformance.




Yes you are right it has no redirecters, however suggesting reavers is laughable. You can take two eagles for the price of one 5 man unit of reavers and the reavers are no where as manuverable as the eagles, also eagles can clear most chaff, and as stated above archers are a joke.



Ok you math is a little off as the average is 9 dice not 10 per magic phase, and he has shadow and high magic. They are primarly buff support lores, they have a few damaging spells but he isn't garenteed to get them so this statement is all kinds of incorrect. With shadow your looking to get mindrazor on the lvl 4 you not looking to do dammage directly with your magic its to buff a unit to do massive damage.

Fantasy gamer, if you answer my original question I will help you make an elite Highelf list. Do you have any list building restrictions?


Missile support is there to help deal with or drive off enemy chaff units/redirectors and allow you to maneuver the rest of your army more freely. You can get away with no shooting but you need to invest in units that can fill in and do their job.



I fail to see how Reavers are 'laughable'. They're fast cavalry so can Vanguard forward and take up a blocking position just as quickly as Eagles can. They also have access to the other abilities of fast cavalry and can take a musician meaning they are easier to rally after fleeing than Great Eagles and they can get back into blocking positions quicker thanks to Feigned Flight. That's not to say the Eagles are in anyway worse but I use both units in my army and they compliment each other very well.

I use Reavers, Eagles and Archers in my army because I acknowledge that, while Eagles are good, they can't be everywhere at the same time. If I can use a couple of Archer units to shoot off some of my opponants chaff and use a unit of Reavers to block off a large combat unit my Eagle can go and tie up other units or hunt down warmachine crew.



Well the average is 7 on the dice. He then gets D3 from the banner so I average at 2. They then gets 4 channel attempts which gives him a better than average chance of throwing a 6. As to damage spells there are two in the Shadow lore (on his Archmage) which possesses two 'damage dealing' spells in the shape of the Pendulum and the Pit. You might be 'looking to get Mindrazor' on the level 4 but the spell is useless until you can actualy get units into combat. So in the first couple of turns you're going to be casting other things.

The basic problem, IMHO, with the list is I've seen far to many armies which would just throw some chaff in the way of his best units and there's not a lot that the list can do in reply to that. The Dragon Princes help but they'll only go so far and will be at the top of anybody's hit list.

Kahadras




Mages and Eagles should kill chaff and redirectors, archers are horrible for this as I've shown in my previous post. Mages and eagles do it better.

So lets for a moment assume he needs to make a few tweaks to his list, which he does because he has some illegal characters. Then lets assume he is worried about chaff. With the addition of a seer staff on the level 2 high magic mage, he could easily take fury of khaine and flames of the phoenix. I don't think you need me to explain how 7 str 4 hits are better then 5 str 3 hits from archers, but if you do I'll be happy to.



So mages = better than archers at killing chaff.

Now eagles.
With them being equal to or faster then all chaff in the game avoiding them is no easy task. With getting two eagles for the price of 10 archers or 5 reavers (the eagles are actually cheaper unless you field naked reavers ) we will do all our comparisons with two eagles

Since the whole point of taking Fast Cavalry is feigned flight, we will be comparing the Reaver's shooting ability vs the Eagle's combat

5 Reavers Shooting against toughness 3 chaff
5 shots hitting on 4's (assuming you are going to be at short range but will have to move) for 2.5 hits
2.5 strength 3 hits wounding on 4's for 1.25 wounds
chaff has little to no armor save so we will just go with 1.25 unsaved wounds

5 Reavers shooting against toughness 4 chaff (rarer but things like a high elf eagle exist)
5 shots hitting on 4's for 2.5 hits
2.5 strength 3 hits wounding on 5's for .8335 unsaved wounds

With chaff usually being 5 or more models (rat darts have 6) no panic test will be taken by the enemy chaff on either result.

Now the eagles

2 Eagles against toughness 3 chaff
4 attacks hitting on 3's (I don't know of any weapons skill 5 chaff other than eagles) for 2.6668 hits
2.6668 hits wounding on 3's for 1.7778 unsaved wounds
2 strength 4 stomps wounding on 3's for 1.3334 additional unsaved wounds for a total of 3.1112 unsaved wounds

2 Eagles against toughness 4 chaff
4 attacks hitting on 3's for 2.6668 hits
2.6668 hits wounding on 4's for 1.3334 wounds
2 strength 4 stomps wounding on 4's for 1 unsaved wound and a total of 2.3334 wounds.

Since the toughness 4 is a much closer call, the eagles can just avoid the enemy chaff since they are tied for the fastest thing in the game.

Chaff striking back with 3 attacks is unlikely to kill an eagle. Giving the Eagle a winning combat resolution of +2
Average chaff leadership of a 8 lets say (and that is being generous to the chaff) makes a break test on a 6 gives the chaff a 42% chance to hold. With swift stride the eagles stand a good chance to run the chaff down for actual earned victory points. Kinda a big thing since that is how we win the game.



Well, for the price of a single Reaver unit or Archer unit, you can afford two Eagles. So they can be in two places at once. So since you stated that you use all 3, I'm going to assume you are doing the smart thing and using eagles in pairs and already have two Eagles. Well if you had just one unit of Reavers and one unit of Archers, that would be 6 Eagles (and some extra points to play with). 6 Eagles can in fact, cover the entire table. So in a way, yes they can be every where at once.

If you are talking about blocking a horde, I would suggest you go to the rules forum here. You will see it clearly demonstrated that eagles can not only do it better than reavers, they can do that job better than any other unit in the game. Completely stoppong forward movement of a horde for a turn while only using two eagles.



If you mean 51% when you say better than average, then yes he has a better than average chance to channel. I don't believe 4 mages for a total of 9 spells is a good option for him because that averages out to 1 die per spell. So he has way more spells then he could ever possibly use. As such, he should be dropping a pair of mages, which will cut down on channelling attempts.

As for useful spell selection, I don't care if he needs to wait two turns to cast Mindrazor. For those turns he can use his other mage to clear chaff and still have a useful magic phase. Pit and Pendulum are not why he is taking Shadow. Every other spell in the lore (outside Steed of Shadows) is why he should be taking Shadow. So Shadow is not for clearing chaff, that is why he has High magic. Other useful spells on the first turn would be Miasma for reducing movement values (consequently this can stop chaff from being an issue when they are making march moves for 2 inches), Withering (you'd be surprised how much damage you can do with Flames of the Pheonix when your opponent is toughness 1), and Pit of Shades (great for killing monsters, ogres and lizardmen. It gets even easier when paired with Miasma.). They all sound pretty useful to me before combat. After combat has started we get even more use out of Shadow.



First, I've explained how he could, with slight tweeks, handle any chaff that he comes across. Dragon Princes are not only not needed for this, I wouldn't even include the Princes in the list in the first place. I'd rather add 10 Swordmasters, 10 White Lions, 10 Pheonix Guard to an existing unit or just take 3 more Eagles for the same points.


I suppose it entirely depends on how we view the break down. In your example you've used a Mage with an extra level and a magic item which adds up to 165 points against a unit that costs 110 points. Those 110 points also go towards the 25% minimum core total for the army. I could also point out that magic is much more hit and miss than shooting; you can fail to cast, your opponant can dispel etc.



I was talking about the fact that I've found that I tend to prefer having more chaff than the Eagles can provide by themselves. If my group was to go to 3000 point games I'd probably be looking at 6 Eagles, 4 units of Reavers and a Noble riding an Eagle.



Well it all sound pretty good but I'm concerned that a lot is invested in the magic phase and that it's expected to do a lot in the army. To be realistic it's probably going to be two spells a turn. Magic is to hit and miss in my experience. Yes you can get off a Miasma, reduce initative by 3 then drop them down a Pit or get off a Withering, reduce your opponant down to toughness 1 then hit them with a Flames of the Phoenix or get off Mindrazor during a vital combat. There are, however, many things that can get in the way of this working.

I'll refer you back to the first case...



I can also think of a reason to explain why you should keep the 5 str 3 hits.

Kahadras


Your right and your archers can miss completely do no wounds at all. Magic is just as reliable as shooting for the highelfsn with spells that can wipe out half a unit or more in one go take flames of the pheonix as an example that one spell will make that mage earn back its points in a phase after he has used spells to clear chaff, the archers will almost never make thier points back, and as far as them counting towards the 25% core tax both of yout other choices (spearman/LSG) are more points effective.





It doesnt matter howmany points you play at whether it be 500pts or 5000pts eagles are better redirecters and stallers then reavers. If you take that many reavers at 3k then you would do better with 14 eagles. They are better chaff for the points same points a 5 reavers gets you 6W's of eagles at T4.






Yes that big combo doesnt need to work every turn once or twice a game is enough to sway the course of battle.




Please do I would like to hear why you should keep them


I don't to see how the Archers possessing the possibility to miss/fail to wound has any impact on the discussion. The Mage could fail to wound and has the chance to get sucked into the relm of Chaos. Should we factor that in as well? Can my opponant choose to dispel my Archers longbow shots? Will I have to make a choice between shooting with my Archer or shooting with another unit?

I would agree that LSG are better than Archers (I usualy field a decent size block myself) but I don't really care if my units 'make their points back'. My redirectors never make their points back. Should that make Great Eagles rubbish in my book?



You might do better with 14 Eagles but you'd be cheating so the point is moot.



Well for me the problem is that the 'big combo' is less once or twice a game but more 'once a game maybe' and even then it might not impact as much as we would like it to.



No, no, I'll let you figure that one out for yourself.

Kahadras


If you read your previous post you mentioned that mages were more hit and miss and thats why archers are better, so logically pointing out that your archers can fail to hit was prudent, as this will make them more hit or miss then mages if a spell is dispelled I simply cast another if you archers miss there is no second chance. We were talking about averages so bringing up failure to cast had no point either. and as far as choosing a unit to shoot with, Every unit of archers you take is one step closer to defeat so if you pack you army with shooting units IE (reavers and archers) you will stuggle to succeed (unless your opponets are that bad).







Your right im sorry it should be 8 eagles at 3k and, the rest of you points should ne spent on SM,WL,PG.





Clearly you choose the wrong targets for your big combo and, highelves have on average more power dice than other armies so you should get your combo off more frequently then you suggest and the hundred or so games I've played in 8th tell me otherwise. As my friend below has done the math for me you can see with the book of hoeth magic is quite reliable for getting combos










This answer is a copout you cant tell me why I should take archers rather then any of the other things I've suggested. I have told you exstensively why you shouldn't take archers. You said this. Back it up.



I also think at this point we are severly derailing this poor guys thread perhaps we should move this discussion to the highelf tactica thread.


I agree that this should move to the Tactica thread.



Right OK I'll expand then.

At no point can my opponant can pick up some dice during my shooting phase and stop the Archers from firing. Dispeling is going to be a issue for the Mage if he's going to be in an army with an Archmage that can spam IF spells. Which leads me on to the fact that at no point do I have to make a choice as to which archer unit I can fire with, both units aren't dependant upon a pool of dice. The Mage can get those strength 4 hits from Fury of Khaine but the player has to jump through more hoops to get it. Although we can run the averages the fact is that the more rolls you make the greater the chance of a duff roll coming up. On top of this the worst that can happen to an Archer unit is that they all miss.

The Archers also a unit so grant an extra drop during deployment, can fill in as extra redirectors or sacrificial units etc etc.



Please don't fall back on 'your opponants are all bad players'. Our clubs meta's and our experiences of the game are different. I've found Reavers and Archers to be solid units. I recommend them because they work for me in my local meta. I wouldn't say to somebody who was recommending Spearmen that their unit choice was 'laughable'. I'm not a fan of them but I'm sure that they are a first choice pick for other High Elf players when buying core units.

To the OP I genuinly recommend you play some smaller games before going to 3000 points. I pretty much started off my current HE army with a couple of the starter sets from the Island of Blood and worked my way up from 1000 to 1500 to 2000 and beyond. I'd also encourage experimenting with different units. My army is always changing and evolving as I meet new players, try out new ideas or introduce new units.

Kahadras

Drashe
12-12-2012, 20:45
I agree that this should move to the Tactica thread.



Right OK I'll expand then.

At no point can my opponant can pick up some dice during my shooting phase and stop the Archers from firing. Dispeling is going to be a issue for the Mage if he's going to be in an army with an Archmage that can spam IF spells. Which leads me on to the fact that at no point do I have to make a choice as to which archer unit I can fire with, both units aren't dependant upon a pool of dice. The Mage can get those strength 4 hits from Fury of Khaine but the player has to jump through more hoops to get it. Although we can run the averages the fact is that the more rolls you make the greater the chance of a duff roll coming up. On top of this the worst that can happen to an Archer unit is that they all miss.

The Archers also a unit so grant an extra drop during deployment, can fill in as extra redirectors or sacrificial units etc etc.

No I cant dispell you archers but lest look at some numbers

15 Archers vs Level 2 High Elf Wizard with Seerstaff (same points value)
15 shots at 4's to hit for 7.5 hits
7.5 hits at 4's to wound for 3.75 wounds
3.75 wounds at a 5+ save for 2.5 unsaved wounds

This is a pretty common preformance and lets just assume they are going to shoot 3 times in a game for a total of 7-9 wounds done in a game. The extra 2 wounds come from shooting at short range instead of long.

Now lets say that unit is against toughness 4 with a 5+ save

15 shots at 4's to hit for 7.5 hits
7.5 hits at 5's to wound for 2.5 wounds
2.5 wounds with a 5+ save for .8334 unsaved wounds.
3 rounds of shooting for a total of 2-4 unsaved wounds per game.

Mage

Im assuming im casting with a lvl 2 wizard and you dispelling with a lvl 4 wizard both are fair assumptions on average the highelf will have 9 power dice and your opponent will have 4 dispel dice

So with 3 power dice to cast my wizard has
a 95.37% chance to succsessfully cast a spell a 8+

Chance to dispell
a 39.94%cance to dispell with 2D
a 70.13 chance to dispell with 3D

That means that my opponent will need to use 3 of his 4 dispell dice to stop my one spell and ill still have 6 power dice to use so I would say this is pretty reliable

2d6 str 4 hits against Toughness 3 with a 5+ armor save
7 hits wounding on 3's for 4.6669 wounds
6+ save for 3.889 unsaved wounds
3 rounds of viable targets for 11.67 wounds per game (greater than 9)

2d6 str 4 hits against Toughness 4 with a 5+ armor save
7 hits wounding on 4's for 3.5 wounds
6+ save for 2.92 unsaved wounds
3 rounds of viable targets for 5.84 wounds per game (greater than 2)

This is with the mage only casting one spell a turn which he will.

As for archers being extra drops. That dosnt work in half the scinarios, and eagles do it better they are half the points, also 7 of the 13 other units in the army do it better as they can be cheaper. If the archers are taken as a sacrifical unit or redirecter 9 of the other 13 units in the army book do it better for cheaper.


Please don't fall back on 'your opponants are all bad players'. Our clubs meta's and our experiences of the game are different. I've found Reavers and Archers to be solid units. I recommend them because they work for me in my local meta. I wouldn't say to somebody who was recommending Spearmen that their unit choice was 'laughable'. I'm not a fan of them but I'm sure that they are a first choice pick for other High Elf players when buying core units.

To the OP I genuinly recommend you play some smaller games before going to 3000 points. I pretty much started off my current HE army with a couple of the starter sets from the Island of Blood and worked my way up from 1000 to 1500 to 2000 and beyond. I'd also encourage experimenting with different units. My army is always changing and evolving as I meet new players, try out new ideas or introduce new units.


The numbers dont lie. Ballistic skill based shooting has gone the way of the dodo in 8th ed. Magic is king. The numbers support why archers and reavers are bad choices so when some one suggests them as chaff killers and redirecters these units are laughable to me, as there are sooooo many other chioces in the book and all better.

If you go back to my very first post I asked the OP about his meta, and I can agree more if you made of money by all means buy every unit and try it for yourself. If you dont take the advice of someone who has played Highelves for 18 years and owns somewhere between 10-15k of highelves TRUST ME I have played every unit in 8th. Im only stating the facts.

judaism
12-12-2012, 21:06
This doesn't really seem like a tactical discussion at this point, just two people trying to be right. I think if you step back and look at the synergies your army can provide for ballistic units or eagles, you will see that both are useful. It just depends how you play and what list you are rocking.

Drashe
12-12-2012, 21:24
Judaism this isnt about being right its why should I ever take archers or reavers. There is no synergy under the sun that will make these units viable if you can show me how they are please do.

judaism
12-12-2012, 21:57
Magic comes to mind. Withering, Curse of Arrow Attraction, Flaming Sword of Rhuin, anything that helps your mathhammer will aid archers more than eagles. They provide bunkers for mages you don't want in combat anyways. Can help you with deal with light cavalry, skirmishers that eagles would get shot up against. There's plenty of reasons to field archers and reavers, they aren't as worthless as you make them out just because they do .82342315 wounds less per attack round.

Drashe
13-12-2012, 13:05
Magic comes to mind. Withering, Curse of Arrow Attraction, Flaming Sword of Rhuin, anything that helps your mathhammer will aid archers more than eagles. They provide bunkers for mages you don't want in combat anyways. Can help you with deal with light cavalry, skirmishers that eagles would get shot up against. There's plenty of reasons to field archers and reavers, they aren't as worthless as you make them out just because they do .82342315 wounds less per attack round.

I think your misunderstanding a little im saying almost anything in the book is a better choice not just eagles there are better units to handle light cav there are better units to handle skirmishers (archers certinly wont be able to do this), and its only .8234 w differance at str 3 at str 4 its 2 wounds a turn. yes there are augment spells that make them seem like they work however now you need to take a wizard and archers to make your archers work, also using these spells to augment your shooting your opponent only needs to stop one spell to put you back in the same boat of missle fire being in effective. I only need 1 wizard to do the same job, and my opponents cant screen a unit to make it harder to hit (like say using a detachment of archers). In short any job a unit of archers or reavers could do ill give you a cheaper and better unit to do it with. People keep saying there are uses for them but no one can prove that they are usefull in any way. Please prove me wrong and show me how they can be reliable and usefull.

Mchagen
13-12-2012, 22:03
Please prove me wrong and show me how they can be reliable and usefull.

http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=67&t=35318

http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=67&t=35825

Curu and others on ulthuan.net have posted their thoughts of archers throughout extensive battle reports. I suggest you read up on them. These are tournament players.

Drashe
22-12-2012, 13:35
Curu and others on ulthuan.net have posted their thoughts of archers throughout extensive battle reports. I suggest you read up on them. These are tournament players.

This is not helpful or valid to our conversation on archers and reavers as I play warhammer not warhammer lite. I play with no restrictions I play the game as written not a game where a group of people have decided to change the game by limiting what you can and cant take as changing the game in this way only shifts the power in the game it doesn't balance it.

So I say again in a forum where there are no restrictions why take archers or reavers when almost every other option in the book is better.

Tarian
22-12-2012, 22:01
Archers are good when you just try to keep them in the back and firing, hopefully letting the hard hitters of the army clean up, as Spears are cheaper, but don't have range. Reavers are just bad.

kefkah
22-12-2012, 23:03
Archers are good when you just try to keep them in the back and firing, hopefully letting the hard hitters of the army clean up, as Spears are cheaper, but don't have range. Reavers are just bad.

Yeah, reavers suck, but i really dont see how archers are that bad. Sea guards are way overprices for what they do, and since when does someone run all core spears? Reavers takes upp special slots, and even though i only play comp games i would never field a list withouth archers.

kefkah
22-12-2012, 23:11
I think your misunderstanding a little im saying almost anything in the book is a better choice not just eagles there are better units to handle light cav there are better units to handle skirmishers (archers certinly wont be able to do this), and its only .8234 w differance at str 3 at str 4 its 2 wounds a turn. yes there are augment spells that make them seem like they work however now you need to take a wizard and archers to make your archers work, also using these spells to augment your shooting your opponent only needs to stop one spell to put you back in the same boat of missle fire being in effective. I only need 1 wizard to do the same job, and my opponents cant screen a unit to make it harder to hit (like say using a detachment of archers). In short any job a unit of archers or reavers could do ill give you a cheaper and better unit to do it with. People keep saying there are uses for them but no one can prove that they are usefull in any way. Please prove me wrong and show me how they can be reliable and usefull.

What do you field for your core? What points do you play? Average game size of 2.5 gives you 625 points. You go all spear or what? Since LSG are way overprices, 4 p over spears for shortbows, eaither way having all spearmen core or seaguards is not optimal. One block of spearmen is almost always enough for whatever task.

Archers take upp core slots, are bs4 shotting, and when fielded in units of 10 make good drops and clears chaff. You know, most lists i see have multiple chaff and if you spend magic on killing those small chaff you are using power dice for the wrong reasons. They also wither away units and do wounds, they are great overall.

Ive even seen units of 20 just wither away completly almost all chaff units and take aways chunks.

The key to a good list is to have utility, and i really dont see how just spear core works. LSG at most of the times gives you 10 shots, hitting on 5 and not marching.

They key is also what you are running and what you meet. If its just combat no manover shadow the spears in vs their combat troops then ok.

There is no other spot that archers take in the he list.

Reavers suck yes, though fast cav is a very very very good rule to have. The only troop that is near useless is Shadow warriors, wich i never field unless in komp since its free.

Edit: Eagles are also there for redirecting and take out warmachines. How do you clear "chaff" who are always minimum 5 units with a eagle?.

Mages take up hero slots.

Archers take up core, and its this. I have only seen full stacks of spears on core from straights noobs.

Mchagen
25-12-2012, 23:56
This is a continuation of the above on the thread http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?360360-2000-high-elves


So I'll preface here and continue in the Tactica forum. ETC comp changes the nature of the game. Addressing your direct comments, limiting units to under40 models makes other choices stronger. Units not being able to be worth more than 450 points means your elves won'thave to worry about units like gutstars. If that isn't a gamechanging effect I don't know what is. The powerdice generating mechanic hampers some armies more than others, namely the Dark Elves and the High Elves. The lists you are calling "optimized based primarily on the strengths of the HE book" are just not. A good example would be Swordmasters to White Lions. Most ETC lists you will see will have a unit of 30 White Lions roaming around, while a unit of 30 Swordmasters just plainly get the job done better. They just kill more models more of he time. The only time you would want White Lions over Swordmasters is when there are less models in enemy units to kill, like when units are capped at 40 models. Reguardless of if you agree, the math does. ETC comp changes everything about the game, most importanly the power curve.

Some math against your primary example, gutstar.
Assuming 40 attacks with swordmasters--23.7 wounds
Assuming 30 attacks with white lions--22.2 wounds

So yes, swordmasters do slightly more to T4 targets with low armor saves (5+). They do worse against anything with T4+ Sv 4+. The net effect in the example above is seven dead ironguts or eight with rounding for swordmasters. That extra 1.5 wounds is changing little to nothing--combat resolution will be 7+ in favor of the elves with either swords or lions.

Here's why lions are better; they have stubborn, higher survivability against shooting/magic (ex: net of amyntok/dweller's), and they can take on a broader range of targets. That's called utility. A unit that is good against a wide variety of opposing targets will have higher utility and will be better against a multitude of armies. Which makes white lions better more often compared to swordmasters.

Swordmasters are about 50% better against T3, low armor save. But even large units of 50+ models will grind them down the same as any other high elf unit. Those are the matchups players avoid. I've certainly never seen many tournament players advocate taking horde-units of swordmasters, ETC or otherwise. But I've seen plenty of white lion hordes.

Beyond that, there haven't been any solid examples of how those armies would be changed in a non-etc environment to they point where they're not 'owned in a local meta.' Which is complete nonsense.

Considering core, I agree with kefkah above. HE players don't take archers because they're amazing, but because they're necessary. Seaguard are completely overcost for average range bow shots which they can rarely use to full advantage. Spearmen are decent at best and need magic to actually make a difference in combat. Maxing out core with them is a mistake because it weakens the ability to deal with redirectors and chaff units.

Morax
26-12-2012, 15:43
Some math against your primary example, gutstar.
Assuming 40 attacks with swordmasters--23.7 wounds
Assuming 30 attacks with white lions--22.2 wounds

So yes, swordmasters do slightly more to T4 targets with low armor saves (5+). They do worse against anything with T5+ Sv 4+. The net effect in the example above is seven dead ironguts or eight with rounding for swordmasters. That extra 1.5 wounds is changing little to nothing--combat resolution will be 7+ in favor of the elves with either swords or lions. Fixed that for you.

Against toughness 5 -
Assuming 40 attacks with swordmasters-- 17.776 wounds
Assuming 30 attacks with white lions-- 17.777 wounds

Correct me if I'm wrong but that looks even more slightly than against toughness 4. Thats just assuming they are swinging against a toughness 5 unit, of which there are 7 (not exactly a whole lot of choices there).

So for units, against 7 of them the white lions are 1/1000th better than swordmasters. Against everything else the swordmasters are better by more than 1/1000th. So like I said, more of the time, swordmasters just kill more in combat. Considering the play style of the High Elves is glass cannon, that is what they are there to do, so swordmasters just get the job of the elite high elf infantry unit done better.


Here's why lions are better; they have stubborn, higher survivability against shooting/magic (ex: net of amyntok/dweller's), and they can take on a broader range of targets. That's called utility. A unit that is good against a wide variety of opposing targets will have higher utility and will be better against a multitude of armies. Which makes white lions better more often compared to swordmasters.

Yes the lions are stubborn, but for elite high elf infantry, they shouldn't be losing combat so that point is nil in a ranked up unit. The only time this ability comes into play is when you are fielding 6-7 man White Lion torpedoes as road blocks, which is a completely different issue.

Sure they have higher survivability against shooting and magic. Ballistic skill based shooting is however not worth the points in 8th, which has been shown multiple times in multiple places, and you are playing the army with the strongest defensive magic phase in the game. Magic tends not to be a problem for high elves as they have so many ways to counter it. So again, either the point is moot or underwhelming.

Yes they can take on a broader range of targets, that is of course assuming you are talking about those 7 toughness 5 units in the game (which they are marginally better at facing, see above).

So for the toolbox utility of the white lions, either it is unimpressive, unuseful, done better with other options. Going for the swordmasters, show me another weapon skill 6 unit outside of chaos chosen. You can't because it doesn't exist. So against every other elite unit in the game (read weapon skill 4+) sowrdmasters are better at killing them. Against the one other weaponskill 6 unit (chosen) the extra point of weaponskill makes the swordmasters more survivable, ie better. I'd call that more than unimpressive or unuseful.


Swordmasters are about 50% better against T3, low armor save. But even large units of 50+ models will grind them down the same as any other high elf unit. Those are the matchups players avoid. I've certainly never seen many tournament players advocate taking horde-units of swordmasters, ETC or otherwise. But I've seen plenty of white lion hordes.

In the ETC you can't have units of 50+ models so I fail to see your point there. Outside of the ETC, those units of 50+ models are handled by things other than elite infantry, particularly in a High Elf list. I've yet to see a game where a unit of 50+ models isn't targeted by Dwellers of a similarly destructive spell. The High Elves have better control of getting those spells than just about everyone else and in a non-ETC enviornment, they have a better chance to cast them than anyone else aswell. So again, point moot.


Beyond that, there haven't been any solid examples of how those armies would be changed in a non-etc environment to they point where they're not 'owned in a local meta.' Which is complete nonsense.

If you are refering to the top 5 posted ETC high elf lists, see below.


Considering core, I agree with kefkah above. HE players don't take archers because they're amazing, but because they're necessary. Seaguard are completely overcost for average range bow shots which they can rarely use to full advantage. Spearmen are decent at best and need magic to actually make a difference in combat. Maxing out core with them is a mistake because it weakens the ability to deal with redirectors and chaff units.

As has been shown by others, magic clears chaff more effectively than archers. Eagles clear chaff more effectively than archers. In fact, 80% of the book clears chaff more effectively than archers. If you don't belive me, lets go through the actual chaff you are likely to see.

Beastmen - Ungor Raiders - 1.67 kills with a unit of 10 archers. Not enough to force a panic check or to kill the unit thereby failing to get the job done.

Bretonnia - Grail Knights - 0.34 unsaved wounds from a unit of 10 archers. Again failing to get the job done.

Demons of Chaos - Flamers, Furies, and Fiends - 1.11 unsaved wounds. Again failing to get the jobe done

Dark Elves - Shades - 1.67 unsaved wounds. Failed to get the job done.

High Elves - Eagles - 1.67 unsaved wounds. Failed to get the job done.

Lizardmen - Skinks and Chameleon Skinks - 1.67 wounds against skinks and .8335 against the Chameleon Skinks. Failed to get the job done.

Ogre Kingdoms - Sabretusks and Gnoblar Trappers - 1.67 wounds against the Sabretusk and 2.5 wounds against the Trappers. Here they might actually do something.

Orcs and Goblins - Goblin Chariots, Mangler Squigs, and Pump Wagons - 1.1 wounds against the chariot and pump wagon and 1.667 against the Mangler. Failed to get the job done.

Skaven - Rat Darts and Gutter Runners - 2.5 against rat darts and 1.667 against the Gutter Runners. Sure you will like take out one of many rat darts but they fail to get the job done against the Gutter Runners.

Vampire Counts - Spirit Hosts and Dire Wolves - 0 wounds against the spirit hosts and 2.5 against the Dire Wolves. Failed even against the wolves as they are immune to psycology.

Wood Elves - Dryads and Eagles - 0.742 wounds against the Dryads and 1.67 wounds against the Eagles. Failed to get the job done.

Warriors of Chaos - Chaos Hounds and Warshrines - 2.5 wounds against the Hounds and 0.139 against the Warshrine. Might do something against the Hounds.

So of all the chaff that archers need to clear, they are only maginally effective at clearing 3 of them and even then they have to get lucky. So, not only does 80% of the book clear chaff better, but archers are just plainly bad at clearing chaff.

Methios
26-12-2012, 21:27
So you have your own awnser.. what is it exactly that you came to do here?

Morax
26-12-2012, 21:49
So you have your own awnser.. what is it exactly that you came to do here?

Just checking, so you agree with me that high elf archers are not good at clearing chaff?

Kahadras
26-12-2012, 23:14
As has been shown by others, magic clears chaff more effectively than archers. Eagles clear chaff more effectively than archers. In fact, 80% of the book clears chaff more effectively than archers.

It has been pointed out though that with the magic option that you need to invest in more points and jump through more hoops (in terms of dice rolls) to clear that chaff. You need to roll up the nessicery spell, have power dice to throw at a chaff clearing spell, have the spell go off, run the risk of your opponant dispelling then roll for number of hits, roll to wound etc. Eagles can clear chaff when they are in combat but I should point out that most of the stuff you've listed an Eagle won't kill in a turn either. What's even worse is that fact that the chaff then gets to strike back at the Eagle. It also means your Eagles aren't doing job they're better at like redirecting or warmachine hunting.

Kahadras

Drashe
26-12-2012, 23:20
It has been pointed out though that with the magic option that you need to invest in more points and jump through more hoops (in terms of dice rolls) to clear that chaff. You need to roll up the nessicery spell, have power dice to throw at a chaff clearing spell, have the spell go off, run the risk of your opponant dispelling then roll for number of hits, roll to wound etc. Eagles can clear chaff when they are in combat but I should point out that most of the stuff you've listed an Eagle won't kill in a turn either. What's even worse is that fact that the chaff then gets to strike back at the Eagle.

Kahadras

Its not jumping through hoops i did the math of it in my post I brought over from that poor guys thread (i posted it a page or two back it proves you dont have to jump through hoops ) and you get 2 eagle for one unit of archers not one.

Mchagen
26-12-2012, 23:21
Fixed that for you.

Against toughness 5 -
Assuming 40 attacks with swordmasters-- 17.776 wounds
Assuming 30 attacks with white lions-- 17.777 wounds

Correct me if I'm wrong but that looks even more slightly than against toughness 4. Thats just assuming they are swinging against a toughness 5 unit, of which there are 7 (not exactly a whole lot of choices there).

I typed T4+ Save 4+. Not and/or save 4+. You have been corrected.


Yes the lions are stubborn, but for elite high elf infantry, they shouldn't be losing combat so that point is nil in a ranked up unit. The only time this ability comes into play is when you are fielding 6-7 man White Lion torpedoes as road blocks, which is a completely different issue.

Is it better to have a tool and not need it, or to need a tool and not have it?


In the ETC you can't have units of 50+ models so I fail to see your point there. Outside of the ETC, those units of 50+ models are handled by things other than elite infantry, particularly in a High Elf list. I've yet to see a game where a unit of 50+ models isn't targeted by Dwellers of a similarly destructive spell. The High Elves have better control of getting those spells than just about everyone else and in a non-ETC enviornment, they have a better chance to cast them than anyone else aswell. So again, point moot.

Yes it is moot, I was bringing this up after seeing the comment of, 'but players face 50+ in non-etc.' You seem to have missed the point after after I stated "these are the matchups (HE) players avoid."


So of all the chaff that archers need to clear, they are only maginally effective at clearing 3 of them and even then they have to get lucky. So, not only does 80% of the book clear chaff better, but archers are just plainly bad at clearing chaff.

I'll reiterate this for you, since you seem to have skipped kefkah's post above and failed to grasp the point made in my post. High elf archers are not great at what they do on their own. They are not chosen for their amazing math hammer stats. They are chosen because they are better than their marginal equivalents in core. They are also chosen because many HE lists are based on synergy--which means they do not perform in a vacuum, they are aided by other elements in the army.

Kahadras
26-12-2012, 23:52
Its not jumping through hoops i did the math of it in my post I brought over from that poor guys thread (i posted it a page or two back it proves you dont have to jump through hoops ) and you get 2 eagle for one unit of archers not one.

The problem is that all of your maths relies on rolling averages. My point is that you have to make more rolls on the way to getting that 2D6 fireball and if you screw up one of those rolls it will have a knock on effect. Yes you can buy 2 Eagles for one unit of Archers. So you have to expose both to close combat if you want to deal with enemy chaff.


They are not chosen for their amazing math hammer stats.

+1 to that

Kahadras

Morax
27-12-2012, 13:33
I typed T4+ Save 4+. Not and/or save 4+. You have been corrected.

Yes I saw the save you mentioned there but I ignored it as most units don't have a 4+ or better save. In fact the disparity of units that don't to the units that do is greater than a 3/1 margin. I plan for the 3, not the one, as that is what I will be seeing on the table top. Planning for the one, particularly in a high elf special choice section, would be like planning for a Cygor in a tournament. Could one show up? Sure. I'm certainly not going to talior my list to handle one just in case it does though.


Is it better to have a tool and not need it, or to need a tool and not have it?

So by your deffinition Lothern Sea Guard are a better choice then spearmen or archers? Clearly they have the largest toolbox approach than the other options but I don't see you advocating for them.


Yes it is moot, I was bringing this up after seeing the comment of, 'but players face 50+ in non-etc.' You seem to have missed the point after after I stated "these are the matchups (HE) players avoid."

The part about tournament players not advocating the use of Swordmaster hordes? No I cought that but considered making that point a second time redundant. I can't help it if those tournament players you are refering to are wrong. Perhaps you should be looking at more sources for your information as the winning tournament players I see take Swordmasters, myself included.


I'll reiterate this for you, since you seem to have skipped kefkah's post above and failed to grasp the point made in my post. High elf archers are not great at what they do on their own. They are not chosen for their amazing math hammer stats. They are chosen because they are better than their marginal equivalents in core. They are also chosen because many HE lists are based on synergy--which means they do not perform in a vacuum, they are aided by other elements in the army.

No I saw Kefka's post and I read his stance on Archers. He states that archers are needed, which is an oppinion that not only do I disagree with is not rooted in fact. I'm very aware of the synergistic style of play the High Elves employ, I play them quite heavily. Synergizing with archers, outside of ETC confines, yeilds you minimal results. Synergizing with Spearmen or Lothern Sea Guard can yeild game winning results. I was pointing out that clearly any of the other options are better.

Mchagen
27-12-2012, 22:55
Yes I saw the save you mentioned there but I ignored it as most...

I highlighted the whole discussion for you, with just four simple words. Its all completely clear now.

Morax
28-12-2012, 12:51
I highlighted the whole discussion for you, with just four simple words. Its all completely clear now.

Yes I'd say you have. I look at things as a whole while you want to continue to look at things in a microcosm. By all means continue to do so, but please stop negatively influencing others by spouting wrong headed ideas based on limited information.

Mchagen
28-12-2012, 22:03
Yes I'd say you have. I look at things as a whole while you want to continue to look at things in a microcosm. By all means continue to do so, but please stop negatively influencing others by spouting wrong headed ideas based on limited information.

The ironic part is, it was your statement of ignorance and lack of comprehension that has been shown throughout the discussion.

Your straw man arguments can only go so far.

Trains_Get_Robbed
30-12-2012, 10:41
I remember the first time I played a local G.W tournament and won uncomped warhammer. #Teclisftwbbq1212~!!! . . . :rolleyes: .

All of our Core suck for value -it's rather overstated by now. However, the only reason why anyone would take a all SPEAR CORE is because they can guarantee their Mindrazor/Withering getting off, or need some sort of bunker. Outside of that, they just provide free C.R for your opponent and literally become burdens you have to play around in order to save.

Archers for two points more meanwhile, not only can fullfill the same exact roll that Spearmen can ie; fighting C.C, but they also provide a ranged interdiction -something H.E lack outside of magic- which will not take care of the needs of army synergy (others have mentioned). Even if your using a uncomped list you still need at least fifteen-twenty shots on the table in some manner. Just because you have a 9 dice pool and your running BoH or Teclis doesn't mean squat, when your only getting two spells off that turn, and your not using it on chaff, instead on other forms of interdiction, and high valued threats.

Azaireal
30-12-2012, 12:35
Outside of Lore of Shadows, Sea Guard are the best core option. If they could use their hand weapons, they would be the only option.

Nonsense, ye of little faith say.

Well, Archers have more range. That will matter very little as I do not often find myself considering using mass bow fire (unless you use an very extensive number of archers) to do much on the battlefield. Math-hammer supports they can do very little, and in return have very little or no armor. So, what they actually work best against is other units of High Elf archers (expensive, unarmored infantry with no real desire to be in combat).

Spears, albeit the cheapest choice, are still positively too expensive for what they bring. For 4 additional points, I can bring just a little bit more, which is often just enough to get them by. Stand and shoot my naysayers, is where its at.

50 Spears with Full Command and a War Banner is a lovely 500 points. With many lores, they can hold their own. Sometimes, even without lores, they will do 'ok'. In most games (most people play ~2500), that is a sizable chunk of your core, but you only leave on or two options for the remaining 125 points (10 Archers with a musician being my personal favourite choice, as it does not go over the mark). The problem is mostly, I face High Elves a lot, that many things can make those 50 spearmen quite dead quite quickly. Look no further than the Lores of Magic, then consider that some armies, some that I do not see, have other means to rain death upon them. I once jested that Mortars would destroy High Elf core, and sure enough, 3 mortars can annihilate High Elf core. Its especially funny if the blast template veers off onto a different core unit, causes panic in the first target and everyone flees from the board, but back on track.

3x15 Sea Guard, with Full Command. Bye the lord, I must be crazy, or lucky, as this seems to be the magic unit. What does it do? Well, it doesn't fight in the center, or does it... They are cheap (for non-easily panicked core) and they have enough ranks to possibly deny rank bonus. They can shoot, but that is only sometimes important. Generally being in the way is where its at really, well being in way with bows and a 5+ armor save. Oh, how those S3 attacks are sometimes plentiful, hitting me on a 4+, wounding me on a 4+ and still letting save 5+. Alas, against the all too common S3 attack is where I want my core infantry to be. Why, who would field that in this day and age? High Elves do, and to a lesser extent so do Wood Elves (guess which armies I fight a lot?). Back into the field, only three ranks? Really? Is that enough?

Well, yes. I don't want to fight to the front with my core units. They are after all, S3. But, sometimes I have to. Thus the bows... Stand and Shoot gives my Sea Guard 66% more attacks in the first round of combat (with the average hit rate, only about 33%, with wounding, just maybe 20%) which is often best used against the things which trouble my weak flanks or threaten my mages. Dangerous Chaff. Now, we've establish several times, archer S3 arrows are not enough to cause panic. But, they are great at aiding to Combat in the first round (if I kill 1.67 dogs or whatever with arrows, I only need to kill 3.33 more with 16 S3 re-rolling attacks to get ride of the unit). Try that with archers. You need 30 to get the same number of attacks in close combat, but I'm pretty sure most people wont charge 1 chaff unit into 30 archers. I could be wrong. [Just double checked, Archers don't have Martial Prowess]

So, a spear is 9 points. For investing 45% more points in him, I can get 66% more attacks in the first round of most combats. Instead of having to invest in one super unit to get sufficient fighting power, I can invest in three smaller units to get similar results, and more chances to actually find that opponent I wanted to face off against with my core. 50 spears are wasted on most things, 15 Sea Guard are usually fighting for their lives. I guess what I'm getting at is during the first round of combat, my unit fights like 25 spears, with the body count of 15.

Where am I going with this... Oh yeah. Have you ever felt threatened by 15 Spears? I would guess not really, easy points in the bag. Especially when they are standing next to something like Sword Masters or White Lions. Well, there's the down side. I may have nothing but Sea Guard to fight your entire army because you do not find them especially threatening. With three ranks, they're not going to remove steadfast from anything. Unlike those 50 Spears. They're risky to let run-amok if you don't have the Chaff to deal with them. There's the good old' steadfast breaker for yah. But honestly, I can't really say I care. But that is another jar of pickles.

Why not larger units? I've learned my lesson, mostly. With High Elves and Wood Elves as your main opponents, that really does determine how you build your core (IE, no archers). This also makes taking the Lore of Shadows less necessary, and I can have more fun with magic by taking other lores (Like Beasts, Metal, Fire, or Heavens) because Mind Razor is not so important, nor is Withering when you really don't need to cause wounds.

Not causing wounds is the wrong argument. Its more like "T1, T3, its all the same to me!" Maybe if I take more RTBs I will learn to love Shadow again, but alas, I do not. Not since my heavy affair with the Lore of Metal. By the maker, she's almost as hot as Duel Fire Archmages against a Wood Elf army.

Now I'm rambling.

Tarian
30-12-2012, 19:19
Azairal, very good post. I personally do like my Sea Guard, and run two blocks, one of 20, and one of 25 to take advantage of Martial Prowess. They usually hold a flank, as they can usually hold at least a turn for my elites to get into the fight.

Sea Guard are expensive, but their flexibility is very nice as well. Sometimes I'll swap a Sea Guard block for archers and spears, but I like having a compact formation.

kefkah
30-12-2012, 22:57
If you have HE and WE as opponent, you think archers sucks? It dosent add upp.

As a elite army, having more expensive core is not that great. They are the same as 45 % less costly spears, and in my many times of trying to like them i just dont. This usally means i speant 4 points for each model to have 2 turns of doing 10 shoots each time, hitting on 5s for average, since you know, you dont keep em in one place.

Not worth it imo, but Sea guards vs other core is more of a personal preference then anything else.

Now Morax seems like a selfabsorbed guy. And he seems to need more exp with varied opponents. I mean whats your list? Spear core, 3 mages, hordes of swordmasters?. The +2 armour vs shooting, and stubborn ( not to mention S6) is the reason why WL are taken in hordes, i have yet to see swordmasters fielded in massive numbers. You say BS isent worth it, if your playing HE surerly you have seen what it does to low armour troops. Try to field swordmasters in the place of white lions and see how fast they die.

Based on what i have read and how other people tell you yet you still stay in your default position, im sorry to say you seem as a straight up noob, not that is bad, but if your aiming for competetive or good lists, you need to stop basing it on numbers like some failed scientist and get some experience.

Tarian
30-12-2012, 23:12
Yeah, the HE core is really down to playstyle, as I use mine for flank anchors, so they usually get volley as they don'y shift around much after the first turn or two normally.

Azaireal
31-12-2012, 03:30
If you have HE and WE as opponent, you think archers sucks? It dosent add upp.

Relying on getting first turn so your archers don't get shot into submission is not a good tactic. Especially when your enemy archers best target (for maximum damage/prevention) is your archers. They'll die pretty quickly to medium bow fire.


As a elite army, having more expensive core is not that great. They are the same as 45 % less costly spears, and in my many times of trying to like them i just dont. This usally means i speant 4 points for each model to have 2 turns of doing 10 shoots each time, hitting on 5s for average, since you know, you dont keep em in one place.

You don't march?

I spend 4 points on making my spears more effective with smaller numbers. 25 attacks from 15, or 24 attacks from 12, or even 20 attacks from 10. Its all about what your fighting and what you need. How many points is 20 Spears, ah it would be nice to have those rank bonuses too but that costs 50 more points. If I have a unit of 30 spear or more, why am I putting them on a flank and not marching beside whatever combat unit I picked? Can 30 spears even hold a flank anymore? 15 Sea Guard can, and I wont mind the cost either. Its not really enough to worry me. You can try archers for the same tactics, but that is a bloody mess (33% less casualties is a lot when you compare it to the cost of archers).

But at least arguing with you has made me consider looking into using 20 spears on a flank. Not that many points (for a high elf) for something that requires a little more than S3 BS shooting to overcome delaying whatever is coming that way. Sure an eagle would work fine, but every eagle takes strength away from the army as a whole (and I've come pretty close to giving up on eagles).

The same number of points in archers would be 16, which could in theory cause some panic over there. But, they die too easily, and for very little additional investment I can give them spears so they can fight in three ranks and shields which will let them die 15% against the things I want them to fight.

Oh yeah, that was why I switched to Sea Guard. They are better at doing the things I want than Archers (and a equivalent body count of spears).

But I'm fighting High Elves and Wood Elves. So my needs are a little different.

Its why I don't use the Lores of Life, Death or Shadows. Its too predictable as to what spells need to be dispelled. Beasts, Metal and Fire (yay T3/flammable) are my favourite choices because your dispelling requires more weighing. High Magic can sometimes be ignored or underwhelming. Lore of Heavens and Light are in the middle somewhere (probably leaning towards being more useful as priority dispelling becomes less apparent).

kefkah
31-12-2012, 04:33
If he is shooting at your archers, he is not at your other equally easy to wound 5+ save eaither. Its not about relying on the first turn so much, but i say vs other HE archers are good. Since a archer is almost as easy to kill as a swordmaster.

Yeah my 10 shot at 5s is when not marching, since you cant shoot when you march.

Well i think this is personal preference. I find that Sea Guards does none of the job aswell. If i want to guard a flank, i rather have more bodies, and if i want to shoot i rather have range. Cheaper to.

Kloud13
02-01-2013, 02:37
I see they are releasing Great Eagles next month for the Hobbit. Has anyone seen them? I hope they are a nice size, and modeled well enough to be used for the High Elves.

shortlegs
02-01-2013, 12:39
I really do not understand how people can justify their arguments that LSG are good.

HE core are really quite rubbish for their points. They only work when you gang on a weak unit by bringing a proportionately larger amount of points to each fight, i.e. when a biggish block is fighting small units like chaff. To rely on them doing anything more, say hold against a main combat block or swing the battle in your favor, is folly.

To this end, which is better at chaff clearing duties? There is really only 2 choices. Spears or archers. Spears because they are the cheapest core, and archers because unlike spears they have the ability to reach out and threaten chaff. I personally prefer archers. Neither are good, they are still expensive at what they do, and not particularly good at doing it either, but they will do. And they can also double duty as chaff themselves. Throw that small 10-men archer unit to redirect the block block while your archmage hops to another bunker works well enough.

LSG, being more expensive and still not any more effective at any of these roles, just makes them the worst choice among what are already bad choices.

Tarian
02-01-2013, 19:15
As I said, I like mine to hold the flank against weaker enemy units. While LSG are not a *good* choice, they're very dangerous for low T, Low save units. Thus, they can ward a flank while still contributing with their bow shots. And unlike archers, LSG can hold against a proper regiment until help arrives, and unlike spears, can still help without going into combat.

I don't think anyone said LSG are *good* just that they fit tactics for the rather poor core we're stuck with.

So, as said, the core is down to *preference* do you prefer the shooty core, the cheap core, or the jack-of-all-trades core.

shortlegs
03-01-2013, 11:06
An equal pointage of archers or spearmen can easily hold the flanks much better.

As I said, HE core are only dangerous for low T, low save units IF they outnumber them point-wise. And when you do, among the 3 core choices, LSG does the job most poorly.

Jack-of-all-trades units have their uses, but only when that versatility does not cost you an arm an a leg, doesn't make you being even lousier at each individual role, and the different roles do not have conflicting requirements (you want to go wide when shooting but go narrow with spears). For LSG, its all three!

But sure, field LSG by all means, I'm happy when my opponent does so. Having to bring 25% of HE core is a handicap by itself, don't mind my opponent choosing to handicap himself even more by bringing LSG..

Asuryan's Spear
03-01-2013, 12:53
Personally i switched to a mixture of spears and archers from a purely spears core.
Pros: easier to take out chaff and have speed bumps
Cons: less scope for prolonged combats and fewer targets for Okkams (i play WLs so not really that essential) believe me 32 Spearmen (8x4) with str8 rerolls to hit is brutal no matter who you are...
In conclusion 2 blocks of spears is easier to play but i find a combination of spears and archers to be the most effective as its harder to bait my units an gives me the general initiative as i can choose combats without worrying about chaff and redirectors (usually wither the unit i'm shooting at).
Then again this is just my own evolution of play style so may not work with everyone.
Overrall i think people have to just experiment and try this for themselves

Tarian
03-01-2013, 17:48
An equal pointage of archers or spearmen can easily hold the flanks much better.

As I said, HE core are only dangerous for low T, low save units IF they outnumber them point-wise. And when you do, among the 3 core choices, LSG does the job most poorly.

Jack-of-all-trades units have their uses, but only when that versatility does not cost you an arm an a leg, doesn't make you being even lousier at each individual role, and the different roles do not have conflicting requirements (you want to go wide when shooting but go narrow with spears). For LSG, its all three!

But sure, field LSG by all means, I'm happy when my opponent does so. Having to bring 25% of HE core is a handicap by itself, don't mind my opponent choosing to handicap himself even more by bringing LSG..

As I said, if they're only archers, then they can't hold against a regiment. If they're only spears, they can't contribute. How are LSG worse than Spears in combat, other than having fewer numbers? And a block of 20 Sea Guard can shoot first two ranks (10) plus volley off the back for 5 more. They lost 5 shots by being 5x4, not a big deal. And 6" range isn't tragic, especially if you move up slightly or deploy at the line.

shortlegs
06-01-2013, 10:49
As I said, if they're only archers, then they can't hold against a regiment. If they're only spears, they can't contribute. How are LSG worse than Spears in combat, other than having fewer numbers? And a block of 20 Sea Guard can shoot first two ranks (10) plus volley off the back for 5 more. They lost 5 shots by being 5x4, not a big deal. And 6" range isn't tragic, especially if you move up slightly or deploy at the line.
Having an enemy regiment chasing after your archers on the flank is good for you.

Spears can't contribute? They sure can charge enemy chaff coming round the flanks can they not?

LSG are worse than spearmen exactly because of what you said, much fewer numbers.

Look, LSG can do the same job as archers and spearmen, I'm not denying that, and I think no one is. But what makes it bad is just its points cost! It's not their effectiveness at performing a particular role that makes them bad, its their efficiency that's the problem.

But I've said enough. I'll just continue to be happy to see LSG across the table from me.

Methios
06-01-2013, 12:03
LSG are awsome! they are perfect at being spearmen models :)

shortlegs
06-01-2013, 12:17
LSG are awsome! they are perfect at being spearmen models :)
So true. The IoB LSG models are lovely, if a little too big..

VampireOrcElf
05-02-2013, 14:20
I find that spearmen do better for me over LSG simply because i can field more models, at 2500 i usually run 60 in a block and its not that expensive, filling most of my core.

Dragon Prince of Caledor
08-02-2013, 15:59
I agree. The spearmen models are awful. Lol I use seaguard as spearmen.

Laniston
08-02-2013, 22:20
I try sea guard every now and then and they never really impress me. Then again spearmen and archers don't impress me much either but the other day a block of 30 spearmen did quite well against a unit of dwarf hammerers of all things. Lasted 3 turns of combat even with me failing again and again to cast okkam's mindrazor. So for now spearmen are my preference for core choice just because they are simple and "cheap".

Sackree
12-02-2013, 05:30
I just realised we can take this item for 10 slaves, nearly half the price of other armies, and that it is low enough to count for our first among equals rule.This banner sounds great combined with our spearelves to add even more static combat res.
The only negative I can see is that it doesn't allow archers to take the banner of eternal flame.


So as anyone tried this out? If so i'm very keen to hear your findings, and i'll be trying it out myself in my next battle, potentially sunday.

Glenn87
19-02-2013, 20:35
Hey guys, I'm thinking of making a HE army, but only using the models I really like.
Now those are Silver Helms and Dragon Princes.

But would an HE army with 10 Dragon Princes AND 10 Silver Helms work??
(joined by a Combat Lord on horse, a lvl 4, and some core??)

Tarian
19-02-2013, 20:54
I used to run a list with 30 Dragon Princes in a horde with 5 Silver Helms. Dragon Princes severely outclass Silver Helms, but they're both alright. Problem will be hitting large steadfast blocks, as you drop to S3. If you're going to go with a Cav style list, I'd probably lean more towards DPs than Helms though.

I do miss when Static Combat Resolution was useful on smaller units... Battle Banner, War Banner, standard and Battle Standard would be 4-9 Combat Resolution off of just banners alone.

Glenn87
19-02-2013, 21:04
yeah, big hordes will be a problem.
Maybe try to charge them in the flanks?? (negating their ranks, but then I'll have to keep ALL of my knights alive...)


Edit:

I've thinkered about a list, and came up with this. I want to keep it at 1500, as it's a nice point number to play with:

260 Archmage: lvl 4

109 Noble: Barded Horse, Dragon Armour, Shield, …

385 40 Spearmen: FC

270 10 Silver Helms: FC, Shields
350 10 Dragon Princes: FC
+----
1372


This leaves me with 128 points to spend to magic Items. Not sure if I really NEED a BSB (as I don't like the plastic mounted BSB model), but that COULD be taken from those points too.
Wich magic items could I take (I have no clue about HE's)

Trains_Get_Robbed
20-02-2013, 09:47
I guess I'm back, for a little while, waiting to see if the H.E book retains any of it's character or becomes better, and reestablish myself as a competitive vet on this particular device -before the bandwagoners join, oh god the bandwagoners (if there's one thing I cant stand).

Tarian, 30 D.Ps doesn't make much sense when your running that many, how'd it go?

Silverhelms aren't a bad choice as their almost guaranteed to go core next book #danceoffclothesoffforcoretroopsthatarerelavent

Tarian
20-02-2013, 14:02
Trains: It went well to the point that people asked me to bring my dual Archmage list instead, as they couldn't stop that initial charge from crushing a main block. That unit also had a lord and 3 heros in it, so it was a complete deathstar. Against someone who knew it was coming, or had a better deathstar, it would have failed completely.

Bloody Nunchucks
20-02-2013, 16:30
Oh god how i'v missed playing Elves.

Trains, Tarian whats up??? It's been a while since i was part of a competitive fantasy discussion. i went to the dark side and have been playing around with Retribution (warmachine elves lol)

i am starting to get back into gaming every week and doing the whole tourny circuit thing, ill be looking for some list advise as im not even sure how the meta has shifted in the past six months :'( can anyone speak a bit about that?

is hero still around here? there used to be a online competitve HE group that chatted all the time on ulthuan about some pretty mean tourny lists, that group still around?

Glenn87
20-02-2013, 21:53
Hey guys,
Is the Dragon Mage actually any good??
I'm thinking of building my Army around caledor, and would love to include one, but the points cost seems pretty high.
350 base and extra points to make him lvl 2...

kefkah
20-02-2013, 23:09
Short answer, not really! Im sorry, he has his uses but..hm, yeah not really.

Ive fielded him 2 years ago in a comped tourney. He comps neither plus or negative so i could have a lord dragon and a dragon mage, so in that list (squeezing in two dragons and getting away with a high comp score) is the only kind of "serious" list i can ever see him go in. For themed or fun, have at it.

Just look at the cost. A firemage, who cant take fireball, and who can buff himself 1+ to wound, is not something you want in any kind of combat, since he will be dead, and for taking on smaller units im sure HE can do better for that same cost.

I know atleast 1 guy IRL who think he is good so there is bound to be someone in warseer who will disagree with me, but if your not playing for comp, and your not playing a themed or 2 dragon list, dont even bother.

Citadel97501
21-02-2013, 03:47
Kefkah says it pretty well, the only thing I would add is that its better to just spend 50 points on the Flying Carpet...

Chicago Slim
21-02-2013, 04:09
Yep-- in recent memory, I've only ever fielded a Dragon Mage as a means to bring a *second* dragon in under 3000 points...

Trains_Get_Robbed
21-02-2013, 08:17
Trains: It went well to the point that people asked me to bring my dual Archmage list instead, as they couldn't stop that initial charge from crushing a main block. That unit also had a lord and 3 heros in it, so it was a complete deathstar. Against someone who knew it was coming, or had a better deathstar, it would have failed completely.

Oh please tell me that had the BotWD in it! XD So mean. Haha.

Same here Slim, not much in terms of meta. I've been following the metas, but being away from home without my models until May I've delved into Yugioh.

When I get back in May I plan on starting a Vlog with my peeps on our "Circuit Run" this year -hitting Buckeye, Bugeater and perhaps American Championships.

I'm not a diehard fan of Ulthuan, although I have a account and regularly peruse, I just dislike the aristocracy vibe they give off when it comes to "comp". It's assumed your running ETC lists, and people are given sycophantic/overly fawned over ideas really neither they invented or pioneered. They do have some great discussions, and are really for the good of the H.E as whole, but it's nice to get some fresh air sometimes.

My current list is under tweaks -mainly due to different comps here in the Midwest- and frankly has been dumb since testing late last Summer. I studied the meta and realized that in my all lists I really didn't have anything that could take chaff reliably, and that additional chaff in G.E is nice, but not really ideal for counter chaffing.

This dilemma had caused me to revist and disregard prior options such as Chariots and D.Ps, until I decided to take Eagle Nobles. This was perfect as they only got better with the new Errata/Faq and gave my list a facet that it was missing before. It's 4-0 so far, and waiting to be picked back up, the skeleton being:

1 Archmage (Lore of Life)

2 Archer Drops

1 Spear Block

1 W.L Block

1 Another Special Block of your choosing

2 G.E's

2 G.E Nobles

while a Prince/Secondary caster varies on the game and comp I'm in as well as a small throw away unit of 7 S.M/Chariot etc. . . again depending on what I tech.


DragonMages:are rather lackluster and very fragile. This being said, if your just casually playing at smallish number of points like 2k, it can be entertaining to pump 2 Dragon's into a list and seeing your opponent try to deal with them (if they don't have cannons that is).

Tarian
21-02-2013, 14:07
Trains: Banner of the World Dragon, Talisman of Light for the Ethereals, Sacred Incense for shooting and Iron Curse Amulet for Warmachines. I threw as much protection on the unit as I could.

Regarding Dragon Mages: They're fun, but not the best use of points. I think there are stronger lores than Fire to begin with, the Mage is super vulnerable in combat, and the dragon is almost useless out of combat, as its a bullet magnet. Duo-Dragon lists are amusing though.

Captain Collius
22-02-2013, 15:43
Okay gents i would like to run units of phoenix guard and white lions in a 2500 point army list what are the opitmal unit sizes for them and what core should I take. Also what else should i run in the list.

Tarian
22-02-2013, 15:59
I run my Phoenix guard around 25-30 models, as I hide my BSB and Archmage in them, and want them to be able to absorb the shots that will fall on them. People seem to like to horde Lions, but I use a small block personally.

As our core is rather poor, spears are a solid choice, archers are overpriced. I'm a bit of an outlier, as I actually like LSG for the flexibility, but most will probably recommend a big block of spears.

Bloody Nunchucks
22-02-2013, 20:45
i like a unit of PG to be 30 strong at that point level. or at least 25. i then put my unkillable lvl4 and BSB with them. this unit is then VERY resiliant and can do some moderate damage to light or medium infantry. they will be the unmovable force in your army, usually in the middle (for me anyway with the bsb) engage with them against anything to set up a next turn charge with your harder hitting fragile elites (i prefer SM's, but thats because i use lore of life religiously(with teclis in tournaments))

as for our core, iv always been a fan of a very large spear block, because they can take on most other core units in this game (LM non-withstanding lol) although recently i have been toying around with smaller units of seaguard. either way i always have 2x 10 archer units to deal with skirmishers/light infantry/smu/and so on.

competitive wise....dragon mages blow, for a fun game though duo dragon can be HILARIOUS. the best part is seeing your opponents face as you deploy dragon number two.

Glenn87
28-02-2013, 22:02
hehe, so no Dragon Mage for a while.
What are you guys toughts on the units in the starter set?
(Swordmasters, LSG and Elyrian Reavers?)

colonel kane trine
28-02-2013, 22:19
Possibly thinking of collecting a high elf army but im not sure where to start.
I have the iob set and thats it but thinking of adding a few lion chariots,dragon princes and more swordmasters. Other than that im not sure what to add to take it upto 3k

Laniston
01-03-2013, 00:41
Possibly thinking of collecting a high elf army but im not sure where to start.
I have the iob set and thats it but thinking of adding a few lion chariots,dragon princes and more swordmasters. Other than that im not sure what to add to take it upto 3k

I really like chariots in general and I think the Lion Chariots are really neat. Some people seem offended to their core at the existence of lion chariots but I love them. The trouble is I usually play 2000 points or so and it always feels like two lion chariots is just too many points to be spending but in 3000 I think it would be great. If you are someone who can use chariots well then they can be an amazing support unit.

I am in the process of painting some Dragon Princes. I have never owned a unit's worth of models but I finally do and they are gorgeous. I think there's generally always going to be a good way to use some Dragon Princes in an army.

I love Swordmasters but in 8th edition they do suffer. I am hoping they will get some kind of special rule to make them a bit more survivable. Some people seem to like running a few small 5-man units of them. I haven't tried this but I can see the value in it since even 5 swordmasters can bring a world of hurt.

Moving up to 3k of course means you need 750 points of core. I like to use plain spearmen in blocks of 30 or more. They're decent for what they do and with four ranks of spear attacks or even more in horde formation they're nothing to scoff at. God help your opponent if you get Okkam's off on spearmen.

There are lots of good special choices. Phoenix Guard are solid and survivable. Fear sometimes even works on your opponent. White Lions are always good. In combat they can take on just about anything. They're my favourite elite infantry. I've never regretted taking White Lions plus the new models are really cool. Shadow Warriors are not well favoured but they're the only scouts we get and even at 16 points, which is too much, they have uses like any scouts. A unit that can march 10" and fire their longbows 30" is a lot of battlefield coverage. Silver Helms I think a lot of people hope will become core but they are decent light to heavy cavalry. Nothing flashy but they can fill out your army and do what cavalry do. I suck at using fast cav but reavers are your basic fast cav so go for em. The island of blood reaver models basically demand you put them in your army they're so gorgeous.

Rare: Eagles, man. EAGLES. I love great eagles. 200 points is cheap for four of them, which you can do with cheesy High Elves. I am also putting at least one noble on an eagle and in 3000 you could have one or two more eagle riders. Eagles give your hero level characters 3 wounds and toughness 4 with a stomp and fly and all that goodness. Eagles are your friend. AND the new Hobbit eagle box is actually a cheaper alternative to the regular GW eagles. The hobbit ones are plastic too.

Bolt throwers can be good but they are really easy to kill and cost a lot of points at the moment. But it is fun sometimes to take a couple. You never know when you might need a little extra firepower.

And of course you have your characters. It's pretty standard stuff. You want your BSB and your mage(s) and Princes and nobles and such. High Elf magic is rightly feared. If you are the kind of person who loves the magic phase. 3000 points can get you a lot of spellcasters. We are one of the few armies that can build a council of light army with 2 strength 8 banishment casters. Only one? maybe the only one... well if you were lucky you could get 3 strength 8 banishment casters couldn't you? yuck you totally could...

anyways we will see what happens with the new army book. I imagine a lot of things will change, especially if we lose the army-wide always strikes first.

Trains_Get_Robbed
01-03-2013, 07:48
Depends what your looking for? Competitive lists, and unit choices, or whole range units?

Seaguard, S.M, W.L chariots, Bolt Throwers (though they add a new perspective to a list), Shadow Warriors and Reavers all suck for their cost (don't listen to ETC'ers, unless you play comp'd hammer a lot) and don't add any dimension to a list that can already be accomplished by Eagles, Lions, knight themed lists and or Phoenix Guard. I didn't mention magic, because it's a integral part of your list and is NEEDED to make the army run.

Frankly the IoB is a horrible choice to start H.Es, none the models are used in well composed lists, however if you can get your hands on the army brigade. . . your in business.

Glenn87
01-03-2013, 11:55
Frankly the IoB is a horrible choice to start H.Es, none the models are used in well composed lists, however if you can get your hands on the army brigade. . . your in business.

Army Brigade?? you mean the big X-Max Army deal??

colonel kane trine
01-03-2013, 21:55
Hmm ok well im thinking of starting with a mage 30 spearmen and 2x10 archer units with possibly a box of silver helms/dragon princes.
Next ill add a lion chariot and some white lions then maybe eagles.

Is that an ok sort of plan?

Laniston
01-03-2013, 22:01
sounds like a good way to start to me.

Citadel97501
01-03-2013, 22:31
Has anyone tried fielding all 3 bound spell rings? This seems like it could be an interesting trick to pull on someone, Ring of Corin on the Wizard, Ring of Fury on an Eagle noble, Ring of Ruin on a Phoenix Guard Champion?

Thepyrotek
02-03-2013, 05:19
Hmm ok well im thinking of starting with a mage 30 spearmen and 2x10 archer units with possibly a box of silver helms/dragon princes.
Next ill add a lion chariot and some white lions then maybe eagles.

Is that an ok sort of plan?
I would recommend dragon princes over silver helms. Dragon princes are generally considered better and i have had great success with them in 5 man units in smaller games. Silver helms just don't pack a as much of a punch and cost only 7 points less. And besides the Dragon prince models kick ass. After that you seem to have a good plan. I have never used a lion chariot but the model look sweet and seems very fun to run. I would suggest some Phoenix guard to down the road but a good start. I would also recommend shadow for the lore of your mage, or high or even life but ultimately thats up to you to decide. Good luck and onwards for Ulthuan!

MR. GRUMPY
02-03-2013, 20:17
Has anyone tried fielding all 3 bound spell rings? This seems like it could be an interesting trick to pull on someone, Ring of Corin on the Wizard, Ring of Fury on an Eagle noble, Ring of Ruin on a Phoenix Guard Champion?

The two first but not the third. And I combined it with High/fire and shooty supreme. Works well but will struggle vs all the mc crazyness all over the board. But thats when white lions swoops in.



Hmm ok well im thinking of starting with a mage 30 spearmen and 2x10 archer units with possibly a box of silver helms/dragon princes.
Next ill add a lion chariot and some white lions then maybe eagles.

Is that an ok sort of plan?

Sounds great. That core will be useful all the way up to 2500 pretty much if you just add a few bowsor spears. Remember to try and stay at the 25 percent core minimum if/when you have the models to do so, thats like the golden rule of HE.

If you get the silverhelms consider running a bsb and prince in there for some killing power. DP works well in units of 5.
Lion chariot is a bit meh for the price but hopefully they will alter that in the next book so if you like the models go for it.
You can never go wrong with white lions and eagles.

Trains_Get_Robbed
03-03-2013, 07:54
Ring spam is useless unless your running trickle-down theory, and have combined it with a low casting Magics like High. For example, in 1,000 pointish games (like the team doubles at Adepticon last year) I had Silver Wand and RoF on a Lvl2 which pretty much locked up the magic phase. I was effectively a level 3 and had 4D6 S4 hits on a unit per turn that had to be dispelled as well as Flames, Vauls and or a Shield (dice allowing for the shield) your opponent can't stop them all.

This effect can be further extrapolated to a larger point scale such as 2.5k -it takes some changes in style and list, but the LoL Banishment spam of 2012 tourney season developed off the same concept.

Conclusively, are all the bound items good? No they're not. However, in certain point games (or competitive markets where it's better to just nuke units with 12 die)where spell selection and casting costs are at a premium I'll sure as hell take a +3 2D6 S4 to bait dice or kill models.

Trains_Get_Robbed
03-03-2013, 07:56
I would recommend dragon princes over silver helms. Dragon princes are generally considered better and i have had great success with them in 5 man units in smaller games. Silver helms just don't pack a as much of a punch and cost only 7 points less. And besides the Dragon prince models kick ass. After that you seem to have a good plan. I have never used a lion chariot but the model look sweet and seems very fun to run. I would suggest some Phoenix guard to down the road but a good start. I would also recommend shadow for the lore of your mage, or high or even life but ultimately thats up to you to decide. Good luck and onwards for Ulthuan!

Double Post, (#longhairdon'tcare) D.P's may be better in combat production, but you have to keep in mind they cost more, and more importantly S.H are almost guaranteed to become core in the new book. Thus, a purchase now is a penny saved later. . . or something along those lines. :shifty:

Von Wibble
03-03-2013, 13:06
For small units I prefer Dragon Princes. If you want a biggger unit Silver Helms work out better as they don't lose an attack in rear ranks. If they were core Silver Helms would see a lot of use.

Laniston
03-03-2013, 19:13
For small units I prefer Dragon Princes. If you want a biggger unit Silver Helms work out better as they don't lose an attack in rear ranks. If they were core Silver Helms would see a lot of use.

I imagine the pendulum is swinging back towards core silver helms for the new book. Or at least something more interesting than the incredibly boring choices we have currently. (Though, I just fought a battle against Orcs and Goblins and 2 units of 35 spearmen brought a world of hurt to the greenskins.)

English 2000
04-03-2013, 03:51
Hey Guys,
I'm about half way through this tactica and plan to stay playing my HE again. I've posted a list in the army list section and was hoping you guys could critique it for me.

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?366502-First-8th-edition-High-Elf-List&p=6666226#post6666226

Thanks

Bloody Nunchucks
04-03-2013, 17:34
Hmm ok well im thinking of starting with a mage 30 spearmen and 2x10 archer units with possibly a box of silver helms/dragon princes.
Next ill add a lion chariot and some white lions then maybe eagles.

Is that an ok sort of plan?

thats actually a really good plan, the lion chariot is more of a personal decision, but one that is fun and when it works it works well. thats a good core to an army that will use DP's as its small elite unit. and dont just get some white lions....get like 30 of them :D

Bloody Nunchucks
04-03-2013, 17:35
Hey Guys,
I'm about half way through this tactica and plan to stay playing my HE again. I've posted a list in the army list section and was hoping you guys could critique it for me.

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?366502-First-8th-edition-High-Elf-List&p=6666226#post6666226

Thanks

sure, no problem.

Glenn87
06-03-2013, 17:57
Hey guys,
Can anyone explain how the Teclis OP list works?
I've red stuff about Phoenix guard, Banner ot World Dragon and multiple characters, all in 1 unit?

Arbiter7
07-03-2013, 03:38
Can anyone explain how the Teclis OP list works?

Yes, he shows up.

Tarian
07-03-2013, 13:59
Hey guys,
Can anyone explain how the Teclis OP list works?
I've red stuff about Phoenix guard, Banner ot World Dragon and multiple characters, all in 1 unit?

Basically, Teclis bunkers up in the Guard who are carrying the BotWD, with characters to protect him in a challenge. The BotWD protects him to save or die spells, and the multiple ASF high WS/S/I characters protect his face, and you let him nuke everything else.

Glenn87
08-03-2013, 09:03
And how many Phoenix Guard do I take? 15? 20? 25-ish? Or really the 40-horde??
And wich Lore on Teclis??
And the rest of the army? Are there any specifics? Or just a normal HE army around him?

Trains_Get_Robbed
08-03-2013, 10:37
With the new book around the corner I won't get to play my version of it, (especially since I won't be going to Adepty) but there is a way to break the that list -to the point where it's the best in the game bar none, it's only bad match-up barring 6 cannons from Dwarfs forcing LoS rolls. I'll see if I can email the exact list myself, where the list breaks any sort of power gaming meta comes with the way you play the list however.

Citadel97501
08-03-2013, 19:54
And how many Phoenix Guard do I take? 15? 20? 25-ish? Or really the 40-horde??
And wich Lore on Teclis??
And the rest of the army? Are there any specifics? Or just a normal HE army around him?

It depends on the size of the game, but I usually use between 20 and 25. Who in the hell told you to use a 40 man unit of phoenix guard? Their designed to be anvils not hordes. Now white lions the 30 man horde actually works though.

Laniston
08-03-2013, 21:30
40 phoenix guard would be good if you're like me and have trouble making even average ward save rolls.

Glenn87
08-03-2013, 21:35
It depends on the size of the game, but I usually use between 20 and 25. Who in the hell told you to use a 40 man unit of phoenix guard? Their designed to be anvils not hordes. Now white lions the 30 man horde actually works though.

Right, so I've tried to make a 2500 point list, but getting the White Lions in is quite hard. Here's the 'list':

475 Teclis

184 BSB: BotWd, Dragon Armour, great weapon
175 Caradryan
140 Korhil

385 40 Spearmen: FC
110 10 Archers
110 10 Archers
110 10 Archers

455 25 Phoenix Guard: FC, Banner of Sorcery

200 4 Great Eagles


Still have 156 points to spend...

Citadel97501
08-03-2013, 22:14
Glenn, I don't know how to fit White Lions in that list either as it is very solid, although I personally dislike the BoWD BSB, as I consider him extremely fragile and it prevents you from using any buff spells on his unit.

I have recently been experimenting with an Air Force made of characters so I can see doing this as an option while keeping your list nearly intact.

Drop 1 of the Great Eagles, & Korhil, to put in the following.

Noble
-Armor of Caledor
-Great Weapon
-Great Eagle

This leaves you with 188 points to throw in white lions, or anything else you fancy, I think it really depends on your local meta-game.

Laniston
09-03-2013, 00:10
Personal taste for me right now would be to exchange all of your archers for spearmen. I ran a similar list the other day except using a book of hoeth archmage instead of teclis and I found that two blocks of 35 spearmen is a great anchor for the elite infantry on the flanks. Then the spearmen can be the target of your buffs and the phoenix guard can remain with the task of protecting the all-powerful Teclis. Spearmen work with magical buffs better than archers. But again that is personal choice for me. Maybe I should be the one adding archers to my armies.

EDIT: I should add that I massacred my opponent thanks to casting spells with impunity. Though in retrospect not being able to have buffed my phoenix guard with +4T would have cost me dearly....

kefkah
09-03-2013, 02:13
Right, so I've tried to make a 2500 point list, but getting the White Lions in is quite hard. Here's the 'list':

475 Teclis

184 BSB: BotWd, Dragon Armour, great weapon
175 Caradryan
140 Korhil

385 40 Spearmen: FC
110 10 Archers
110 10 Archers
110 10 Archers

455 25 Phoenix Guard: FC, Banner of Sorcery

200 4 Great Eagles


Still have 156 points to spend...

Caradryan could be dropped though ( or not, your choise) since your already magic immune and get a regular noble in that does not have to die to kill.

Also, if you stick to min core (wich lore with teclis? if not shadow i would advocate more archers then 40 spears), 625 then you have 250 pt for white lions, do a 3x6 or 7.7,4 with a music to got against anykind of monster /T he has. White lions dont have to be a horde in this kind of list. Just dont bog them down and if you go vs high t stuff they will reap.

Jocat
14-03-2013, 17:57
is hero still around here? there used to be a online competitve HE group that chatted all the time on ulthuan about some pretty mean tourny lists, that group still around?

Shh.. we don't speak of him here ;)

I pretty much stopped posting on Ulthuan nearly a year ago. I think the last post I made was over winter break, then somewhere around that time, WHFB also kinda fell apart in my area.

The new book will make us all start anew, and we'll all play the same game again.

Asuryan's Spear
14-03-2013, 19:36
there's a new HE book coming out?

Trains_Get_Robbed
14-03-2013, 20:44
I'm not around the Midwest currently, but over there the tourney scene is thriving. For example the both the largest N.A G.T/tournies are there. I can't wait to get back and start playing May can't come quick enough -for both the new book and myself.

Hopefully they don't trash the specials too much. A lot of what Wampyrai posted is general common sense, and frankly I wouldn't take as canon rumors as he was saying it himself that's "what he had heard" and that he didn't want to be linked to the rumors here.

Regardless politics aside, you my as well stock up on SilverHelms and Chariots now they can go nowhere but Core. I would just like to see Gryphons become a Noble choice, which could also be very likely.

Laniston
15-03-2013, 18:31
I know tactically speaking chariots and cavalry core may not be ideal choices for 8th edition, but I would love it just for putting variety back in High Elf armies. I am so sick of being stuck having to take infantry core when I own so many chariots and silver helms from previous book editions.

Also I have been reading Storm of Magic a lot and I would love to see Griffons from that book in the HE army book. 150 points and they can buy upgrades. Also bring back cockatrices to the high elf army. Be a sweet rare choice.

Glenn87
15-03-2013, 21:50
As I want to make my army around Cav, I would LOVE to have Silver Helms back at Core.
Are there any rumours they will be, or is this just someone's wishlist that has been rumourized?

Kahadras
16-03-2013, 01:48
Personaly I'd hate to see Silver Helms go to core as it would just turn them into a no-brainer. Reavers would be fine to go to core and I would mind if Shadow Warriors went as well. Silver Helms going to core would just mean that Spearmen, Archers and Seaguard would be dropped like a hot potato (with a few exceptions such as the Mind Razor Spearman block or the 10 man Archer unit drops).

Kahadras

Citadel97501
16-03-2013, 02:42
Personaly I'd hate to see Silver Helms go to core as it would just turn them into a no-brainer. Reavers would be fine to go to core and I would mind if Shadow Warriors went as well. Silver Helms going to core would just mean that Spearmen, Archers and Seaguard would be dropped like a hot potato (with a few exceptions such as the Mind Razor Spearman block or the 10 man Archer unit drops).

Kahadras

I disagree Kahadras, they are not an auto-include due to their price and if spear-men/sea guard might get a cost reduction. It would also be nice to have an all cavalry army of high elves, the lore of beasts would definitely get a bump up the list of our lore choices then.

Kahadras
16-03-2013, 02:54
I disagree Kahadras, they are not an auto-include due to their price and if spear-men/sea guard might get a cost reduction. It would also be nice to have an all cavalry army of high elves, the lore of beasts would definitely get a bump up the list of our lore choices then.

The cost reduction would have to be insane. The advantages of increased mobility and a 2+ save is massive in an army which possesses a base toughness of 3 and whose infantry get a 5+ save at best (and whose core in purely infantry under the current army book). Price is immaterial as you have to spend points on core and core heavy cavalry is always a good investment. A pure cavalry High Elf army would still be possible if Reavers moved to core and Beasts is already one of the best Lores for High Elves anyway; it doesn't need core Silver Helms to make it attractive.

Kahadras

Trains_Get_Robbed
16-03-2013, 06:58
The cost reduction would have to be insane. The advantages of increased mobility and a 2+ save is massive in an army which possesses a base toughness of 3 and whose infantry get a 5+ save at best (and whose core in purely infantry under the current army book). Price is immaterial as you have to spend points on core and core heavy cavalry is always a good investment. A pure cavalry High Elf army would still be possible if Reavers moved to core and Beasts is already one of the best Lores for High Elves anyway; it doesn't need core Silver Helms to make it attractive.

Kahadras

All of this imo^

I frankly feel that's what we need though. Currently our core is the worst in the game (yes, even W.E have us beat). Giving us what we lack a +2 A.S core choice that can anchor fragile glass cannon lords with the stubborn hat would be in the right direction for this book in competitive gameplay.

It may be sad, but having Shadow Warriors or Reavers in core would still suck. This would cause a shoehorning for players into taking crappy archers or Spearmen as it will be as viable as ever being hypothetically lower costed and having more/new rules -while Eagles will hypothetically will still fill S.W and Reavers yet again #7thed.alloveragain.

Unless S.W bring a new rule to the table like K.B as well as Reavers -perhaps a hit and run Warhawk like rule- in addition to major points decrease, I don't see their role in the army. In addition, if you don't drag Silver Helms to core, there will yet again be no reason to take them. Why I' am I going to take a slightly overcosted +2 A.S T3 "heavy cav" (which is arguable in the current metagame) there's no incentive when the book can just rely on Specials and Magic.

Filling niche lists can be a goal for the army designers, but so is making money. Putting Reavers and Silverhelms into core could be a start as it would feed to more playstyles in addition to selling more boxes of product. I doubt we'll see S.W in core, they are scouting after all; no army in the game has a scouting Core choice (don't say W.E). Competitive diversification is the key; how well G.W does this is how well the book gets bandwagon jumped -or not left on the roadside by vets.

Kahadras
16-03-2013, 14:39
I frankly feel that's what we need though.

To be frank we're going to get it. I think moving Silver Helms to core is going to be the GW 'money spinner' for the High Elf release. The Silver Helms will probably get new models and will go down to 5 per box. Every High Elf player and their dog will run out an buy at least another couple of boxes. I feel that if Silver Helms do go core it's GW saying 'sorry can't be bothered to look at the core infantry problem with High Elves so here's a another 'quick fix' along the lines of army wise ASF'

Kahadras

Trains_Get_Robbed
18-03-2013, 05:16
Agreed. Which kind of sucks, because I would like to mix and match my core, but if the following does happen, it'll be a no brainer for competitive play.

Buy yo Silvah Helms, buy yo Chairiits, cause' they goin be rapin errbody out der! :3

Laniston
19-03-2013, 19:03
All of this imo^

I frankly feel that's what we need though. Currently our core is the worst in the game (yes, even W.E have us beat). Giving us what we lack a +2 A.S core choice that can anchor fragile glass cannon lords with the stubborn hat would be in the right direction for this book in competitive gameplay.

It may be sad, but having Shadow Warriors or Reavers in core would still suck. This would cause a shoehorning for players into taking crappy archers or Spearmen as it will be as viable as ever being hypothetically lower costed and having more/new rules -while Eagles will hypothetically will still fill S.W and Reavers yet again #7thed.alloveragain.

Unless S.W bring a new rule to the table like K.B as well as Reavers -perhaps a hit and run Warhawk like rule- in addition to major points decrease, I don't see their role in the army. In addition, if you don't drag Silver Helms to core, there will yet again be no reason to take them. Why I' am I going to take a slightly overcosted +2 A.S T3 "heavy cav" (which is arguable in the current metagame) there's no incentive when the book can just rely on Specials and Magic.

Filling niche lists can be a goal for the army designers, but so is making money. Putting Reavers and Silverhelms into core could be a start as it would feed to more playstyles in addition to selling more boxes of product. I doubt we'll see S.W in core, they are scouting after all; no army in the game has a scouting Core choice (don't say W.E). Competitive diversification is the key; how well G.W does this is how well the book gets bandwagon jumped -or not left on the roadside by vets.

Just FYI Tomb Kings horse archers are core scouts

Trains_Get_Robbed
20-03-2013, 09:06
Yes, I think there are three units (4 if you tactically consider "Ambush" "Scout") in the game that can be core scouts, but none fit the profile of Scouting Skirmshers like S.W -they would be: W.E Scouts, T.K Horse Archers and the only effective viable scout unit; scouting Dwarffffffs with G.Ws.

Asuryan's Spear
20-03-2013, 18:45
I personally liked the idea of the new units from the more obscure kingdoms. Cothique Rangers (archers w/ special rules) and some Yvresse heavy spearmen (heavy armour, shield, spear w/special rule) along with reavers going to core could be a way to go. GW get a new box to sell, the army gains diversity and core units which may actually stand up to other core units for a change plus those players that always liked those kingdoms can finally have a more thematic force. that with some MC (maybe averlorn elves on great stags) and suddenly most of the kingdoms can be played

delume
19-12-2013, 06:40
Hey all, I am very new to High elves and Warhammer Fantasy general. I have inherited some High Elves from a friend and I am having a 1000 pt game over the holidays. i have tried making a list from what I have (28 pearmen, 20 Archers, mage, noble with standard, 5 reavers, 20 white lions, 14 swordmasters, 2 eagles and a bolt thrower.) Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

Mage: The Reaver Bow; Dispel Scroll; Level 2 Wizard.


10 Archers
10 Archers
5 Ellyrian Reavers: musician; spears; bows.


20 White Lions of Chrace: Guardian; musician; standard bearer (Gleaming Pennant).
7 Swordmasters of Hoeth: Bladelord.


Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower
1 Great Eagle: Swiftsense.