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innerwolf
27-06-2010, 23:00
I suppose it has already been mentioned, but Tyrion got shafted pretty well by 8th edition. The only special thing he had on his favour, huge survability, is lost, as now he must use 4+ ward or regeneration(instead of both). So regeneration is useless on him, as I don't know any item in Warhammer that negates ward saves but not regeneration saves.

Another underpowered special character to gather dust on the shelves.

Marshal Torrick
27-06-2010, 23:25
I'm considering somethig like this at 2250 for 8th (rough estimate as my list is elsewhere)

Level 4 Archmage
Book of Hoeth
Lore of Heaven

BSB
Banner of MR2

24 LSG Full Cmd
24 LSG Full Cmd

20 Phoenix Guard Full Cmd Std of Sorcery
Lion Chariot
Lion Chariot

RBT
RBT
RBT
Eagle
Eagle
Eagle
Eagle

Something like that. 11 Drops in a metagame that will likely average about 7, which gives us plenty of time to find the best positions for our artillery and blocks.

Using the book on 4-dice casts shooting for the upsized version of spells results in about 72% shot at IF and with a 12% shot at double 6's(if the math's right). You'll likely have enough dice to throw both the upsized Comet, which should take out enemy artillery, and cast Chain Lightning at big threats until the enemy gets in close. The Archmage will hang with the PG block to mitigate the casualties from an explosive miscast.

The benifits of LSG are obvious and PG will hit pretty regularly with two ranks and rerolls. The lion chariots will be much more survivable once the enemy's shooting has been squished by magic and our own shooting, along with eagles hunting warmachines or swarming at important shooting units.

For a bigger game, I'll throw a prince on an eagle with 2+ rerollable armor and 4+WS with a halberd to further hunt warmachines, mages, etc.

Thoughts?

HeroFox
27-06-2010, 23:32
When they put him on a normal cavalry sized mount and fix his rules, I might consider him again.

Longrunripper
27-06-2010, 23:39
I'm considering somethig like this at 2250 for 8th (rough estimate as my list is elsewhere)

...

RBT
RBT
RBT
Eagle
Eagle
Eagle
Eagle


There is a cap on the number of specials and rares of the same type you can take. I believe it is 2 or 3 unless you play games of 3000pts+.

Marshal Torrick
27-06-2010, 23:52
No "Elite Army" rule then?

minionboy
28-06-2010, 00:17
No "Elite Army" rule then?

So far, still no. It may show up in the FAQ.

Darktan
28-06-2010, 00:23
you'd have to wait for the eratta for that one.

edit. ninja'd

Allonairre
28-06-2010, 01:09
I'm considering somethig like this at 2250 for 8th (rough estimate as my list is elsewhere)

Level 4 Archmage
Book of Hoeth
Lore of Heaven

BSB
Banner of MR2

24 LSG Full Cmd
24 LSG Full Cmd

20 Phoenix Guard Full Cmd Std of Sorcery
Lion Chariot
Lion Chariot

RBT
RBT
RBT
Eagle
Eagle
Eagle
Eagle

Something like that. 11 Drops in a metagame that will likely average about 7, which gives us plenty of time to find the best positions for our artillery and blocks.

Thoughts?

My only concern here is that you have no flankers, I know that this is weirder in 8th but I still think that they will be very important, perhaps moreso with the massive number of attacks that can come from the fronts of units. Maybe switch the Lion Chariots into units of Swordmasters or White Lions so you can break ranks when they charge.

cptcosmic
28-06-2010, 08:52
The benifits of LSG are obvious#
on paper only. penalty for moving and long range for atleast 2 rounds + you cannot shoot and march (and S3 thus you actually kill nearly nothing with them) unless you do not want to use them in melee which would be waste of points.

CmdrLaw
28-06-2010, 10:20
Have a couple of thoughts regarding HE mages.

Would it be worthwhile taking a lvl 4 a spec toward dispelling as it makes sense to repeatedly dispel with the mage with the highest bonus until he fails to dispell (which you hope wouldn't happen).

Another point is how to best mitigate the awful awful miscast table?

And lastly, I loved the idea of dragon mages being all pimp and blowing **** up while munching people but not sure how viable they are in the new edition.

HeroFox
28-06-2010, 15:25
Have a couple of thoughts regarding HE mages.

Would it be worthwhile taking a lvl 4 a spec toward dispelling as it makes sense to repeatedly dispel with the mage with the highest bonus until he fails to dispell (which you hope wouldn't happen).

Another point is how to best mitigate the awful awful miscast table?

And lastly, I loved the idea of dragon mages being all pimp and blowing **** up while munching people but not sure how viable they are in the new edition.
1. A Lv.4 with Book of Ashur should be able to dispel and cast reliably. High Elves get a +6 to dispel with that item.

2. Staff of Solidity comes to mind.

3. Dragon Mages suck. One of the most cost ineffective units in the book. They are a fluff choice only as far as I'm concerned, but I'm sure a lot of people will argue that the Fire Lore got improved, free dice to cast fire spells is awesome, and you can keep him cheap by giving him a Silver Wand. Then I'll kindly remind my silly Princes that the Dragon Mage basically a 2W T3 Elf with virtually no save on a giant red bullseye. With the coming of 8th Edition and TLoS and everything wounding on 6s, Dragons got worse in general.

Emeraldw
28-06-2010, 15:34
1. A Lv.4 with Book of Ashur should be able to dispel and cast reliably. High Elves get a +6 to dispel with that item.

2. Staff of Solidity comes to mind.

3. Dragon Mages suck. One of the most cost ineffective units in the book. They are a fluff choice only as far as I'm concerned, but I'm sure a lot of people will argue that the Fire Lore got improved, free dice to cast fire spells is awesome, and you can keep him cheap by giving him a Silver Wand. Then I'll kindly remind my silly Princes that the Dragon Mage basically a 2W T3 Elf with virtually no save on a giant red bullseye. With the coming of 8th Edition and TLoS and everything wounding on 6s, Dragons got worse in general.

Maybe so, but his cost still includes a large dragon that can fly and pop stuff, plus you can give him a 4+ save. And breath weapons can be used in combat and have no partials. Sure everything might have an easier time shooting at it, but it isn't like that didn't happen in 7th. it was a large target! I rarely saw dragons spending time hiding behind mountains. maybe forests but in general you got them in there.

Also, it might cause shooting to go there, and not at the squishy elves. Expensive? Yes. Optimal? Maybe not, but I wouldn't discount him that quickly.

HeroFox
28-06-2010, 16:53
You mean fly around and get popped. A Lv.2 Dragon Mage with a 4+ ward is like ~430 points (dont have my book, going off the top of my head). That leaves no room for anything else at 2K, and just a BSB in 2500.

If anyone brings him to the table, I'll be glad.

Falkman
28-06-2010, 16:57
If anyone brings him to the table, I'll be glad.
Same. 1-2 casts of Chain lightning/Uranon's thunderbolt should send the poor sod crashing to the ground, and I will be able to target him from pretty much anywhere thanks to his impressive size.

Zaszz
28-06-2010, 17:47
I will be running a lvl 4 with Life, and a Lvl 2 with shadows probably. Life just seems amazing for buffing up our units and regenerating those expensive special infantry losses from shooting as we approach. The lvl 2 will probably run shadows for the help against shooting and reducing enemy strength, which is basically just additional version of the toughness increase in Life, then again beasts has a great spell for that as well, so maybe life and beasts. I would have liked to throw in more offense but I suppose just 1 or 2 nuke spells will have to do, wish I could squeeze Fire in there somehow, god magic is awesome now :p

Baz123
28-06-2010, 19:04
Ok so was discussing my idea for HE with a mate.

I am going to be trying 50 Spearmen as with the knew rules if u go 10 wide u get a massive 50 attacks, with re-rolls against most enemies.

Now add into the mix the spell allowing you to use your leadership as your strength and its getting nasty, then I believe he told me there was some sort of spell to modify your toughness, I could be wrong but if there is...

You could do exactly the same with PG however because of their Halberds they would become S10! with the spell.

Just what I think I am going to be running in these new rules :D

HeroFox
28-06-2010, 19:21
Just remember that the high S value based on Ld does not modify armor saves.

It's great hurting big bad trolls, but with re-rolls, something like Flaming Swords of Rhuin would be just as nice, if not better because of the flaming attacks.

Baz123
28-06-2010, 19:25
I had actually forgotten about the modifier lol just so engrossed in actually being able to hurt with so many attacks a lot easier now, they are going to lose a lot of casualties just from the sheer number of saves they will need to take.

VonUber
28-06-2010, 19:28
Another thing I dont think anyone has pointed out, drain magic is pretty useless now. Its worth more going for another law. Espesh since you can have a chance of turning your self into a chimera.

Looking at the rule book for high elves. The best option to go is a level 4 and a level 3. You can get them both in 2k. They have 3 wounds so can take a little more punishment. and they have a total of 7spell between them making more use of the 2D6 power dice, its also 2 channel attempts, one of them can even have the +1pd item.

If I was using a high elf army, thats the combo I would go for.

Plus they have access to the lore of metal. Meaning one of them can handle high save things and the other can nuke infantry. Rember that fire spell with the small template... it hits 21 models ;)

HeroFox
28-06-2010, 19:34
I would do something like that in 2500 but not in 2k. Point wise, 625 points for 25% Lords will offer greater item diversity as well.

Tolinwiz
28-06-2010, 19:49
Ok so was discussing my idea for HE with a mate.

I am going to be trying 50 Spearmen as with the knew rules if u go 10 wide u get a massive 50 attacks, with re-rolls against most enemies.

Now add into the mix the spell allowing you to use your leadership as your strength and its getting nasty, then I believe he told me there was some sort of spell to modify your toughness, I could be wrong but if there is...

You could do exactly the same with PG however because of their Halberds they would become S10! with the spell.

Just what I think I am going to be running in these new rules :D

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=262984

Malorian
28-06-2010, 20:07
Looking at the rule book for high elves. The best option to go is a level 4 and a level 3. You can get them both in 2k. They have 3 wounds so can take a little more punishment. and they have a total of 7spell between them making more use of the 2D6 power dice, its also 2 channel attempts, one of them can even have the +1pd item

The average of 2D6 is 7 PD, and with that I wouldn't expect to see more than four spells cast (3 being more common).

VonUber
28-06-2010, 22:20
The average of 2D6 is 7 PD, and with that I wouldn't expect to see more than four spells cast (3 being more common).

Most of them can be cast on 1 dice from the high elf book now. Take flames of the phonix, that just needs 2 dice to cast it now.

The main thing is its +4 to cast or dispel or +3 to cast and dispel.

It works. and its more chances to get the spells you need with the spells they can know. Also if you do roll over average is more spells. If you play my regular high elf oponent they cannot roll less than 10 power dice in there phase.

Falkman
28-06-2010, 22:36
You definitely do not want to be casting spells with just one dice unless it's the last spell you're going to attempt with that particular mage.

HeroFox
28-06-2010, 23:04
You definitely do not want to be casting spells with just one dice unless it's the last spell you're going to attempt with that particular mage.

That's because casting with 1 dice means you have 1/3rd chance to fail and your mage won't be able to cast anything else :)

GenerationTerrorist
29-06-2010, 14:09
Hi agian all. Looking forward to how the intricacies of 8th will affect m favourite unit....Dragon Princes.

I ususally run 2 units of 5 with Standard, and a unit of 6 with Standard and Champion (led by a BSB). I am wondering, given the new extra rank bonuses that are supposedly coming it, whether it would be worthwhile getting another set of DP's, and then running them in 2 units of 10?

Galatan
29-06-2010, 15:56
2 units of 10 DP? That would be a huge investment of point. Not really worth it IMO as HE units are already expensive to begin with. What I would do is combine the 2 units of 5 into a single unit of 10. 10 DP will be pretty though and will give you security on one flank (15 S5 re-roll attacks at ASF :O , maybe a nice banner and that will be one scary unit).For the other flank you'll have to find a cheaper unit that will be sufficient enough to protect it. I think either a chariot or 2 or a block of white lions/swordmasters. Maybe reavers will be up to the task as well, but I've never used them or seen them in action.

Makoto00
29-06-2010, 18:13
Having at least one solid unit of flankers seems like a wise investment in any decently sized game. The DP may be expensive but seem like the best option for inflicting heavy casualties.

Voss
29-06-2010, 19:15
The problem is, a unit of 10 cavalry can very easily become a unit of non-flankers. 1 model lost means you aren't breaking ranks anymore. I'm not certain that matters as much anymore, but its worth taking into account.

If you're just trying to get wounds in, then they probably are the best bet for a combined charge, just for the extra movement. If the manueverability isn't a concern (and you can mitigate it somewhat with the +1 movement banner on an elite infantry unit), I'd probably just suggest another unit of SM/WL/PG. More all around utility and much more effective if the combat drags on (considering steadfast from ranks, a definite concern).

HeroFox
29-06-2010, 19:27
Cavalry are still great counter-charge elements or supporting charge units.

They are no longer the line breakers they were last edition.

DPs for me changed from small flanking units to making sure I do enough damage the enemy doesn't swing back and kill Elves; also to make sure I win combat by a million.

Makoto00
29-06-2010, 20:16
So would you almost treat the DP's as a throw away unit, meant simply to smash into a flank and soften up an incoming target?

HeroFox
29-06-2010, 20:20
No. The enemy crashes into my Spears and I hold them, then DPs come crashing in.

Or, they combo charge the enemy with my other units where the DPs will add additional combat res/target priority.

Makoto00
29-06-2010, 20:33
No. The enemy crashes into my Spears and I hold them, then DPs come crashing in.

Or, they combo charge the enemy with my other units where the DPs will add additional combat res/target priority.

Makes sense, ever stick a Noble with them to bring a nice weapon, or just give it to the Unit Champ?

HeroFox
29-06-2010, 20:36
The only Nobles I take are BSBs.. so if they charge into the enemy, they'll be equipped with Helm of Fortune and Guardian Phoenix.

Lance if I wanted the 1+ re-rollable or 2+ re-rollable for a constant +2S with a Great Weapon.

Galatan
29-06-2010, 20:45
I guess that really depends how much points you have left, but a drakemaster basically is a light noble. He has the same amount of attacks, only slightly worse stats, but still good enough to do damage.

TBH I think HeroFox is right on the account that DP's aren't the linebreakers anymore. A unit of 10 will be a solid investment for flank protection, but for the same amount of points you could take 20 phoenix guard with the AP magical banner. Take 2 units of 10 DP's and you practically have no points left for a decent block special infantry (which IMO should be 20 men at least from now on). 5-6 are perfect for a counter/combo charge (which cav are meant for), but only to get those extra kills in. IIRC you'll need a 2nd rank to negate rank bonusses now and thus removing their stubborn, but I think that is way too iffy, since removing the 2nd rank is pretty easy (and putting a 3rd rank in a cav unit is almost unheard of). So you might as well try to get as many kills as possible and thus try to get rank superiority.

EDIT: If you want to go for 2 rank cav units you're much better off with SH as they are cheaper. Note they do get less attacks and stats are worse overal, but since everything in the HE AB already is so *******' expensive, I can imagine if you are on a budget. Thus for rank negation, SH are a recommended. For pure killing > DP, but I think that going up to 10 is a bit too much. It costs you 150 pts extra for basically 5 extra attacks and a 2nd rank that can easily be knocked off.

King_Pash
30-06-2010, 01:05
Has anyone considered fielding cav in 3x3 formations? Since you only need one rank to negate ranks, a 3x3 formation (or even a 3x2 for the cheaper option) could be quite effective.

1) It's thinner so can be thrown about a bit on the battefield and fit in where required.
2) It's relatively cheap compared to the 5/6x2 formations everyone is talking about.
3) Can be cheap enough to almost be a throw-away unit/harrasing the enemy.

Ranks are pretty important. If you happen to squeeze one of these "slim jims" in the side, the enemy would fall a lot quicker..

Sparowl
30-06-2010, 01:23
Has anyone considered fielding cav in 3x3 formations? Since you only need one rank to negate ranks, a 3x3 formation (or even a 3x2 for the cheaper option) could be quite effective.

You realize that a rank requires 5 models for cavalry or infantry? Only Bretonnians get 3 wide ranks, in their lance formation.

Trains_Get_Robbed
30-06-2010, 05:13
Well if the rumor in the FAQ is true (for certain armies) that 4 wide is going to be the formation for cav to break ranks then Blood Knights, D.Ps and Chaos Knights just stole the Brets thunder.

Falkman
30-06-2010, 10:33
There hasn't been any rumour about that, it was one guy thinking it was like that but he got shot down.

King_Pash
30-06-2010, 11:31
If it is indeed 5-cav per rank then that tactic just got shot down :/ Still, it would be nice to have 3/4-cav ranks to keep those Dragon Prince buses slim. Who knows?..

Lathaon
30-06-2010, 12:07
4 per cavalry rank would be nice...

The_Lemon
30-06-2010, 12:15
yesterday I was reading our army book for the nth time and saw that Teclis chooses his lore at the start of the battle. I do not know if that is only in the spanish army book or it is in al army books. But if that little snippet is in all army books, Teclis is much better than we thought.

Falkman
30-06-2010, 12:25
Every mage chose their lore at the start of the battle in 7th ed.
I wouldn't hold out too much hope in that making it over to 8th.

The_Lemon
30-06-2010, 12:47
Well unless they errata it, and it has to be an errata not a FAQ, Telcis will be able to choose his lore at the start of the battle, unless it is wrong in the spanish army book.
Can anyone with the english version check his "Grand Master of Knowledge" rule? (the one that says that he knows all spells from a given lore)

Galatan
30-06-2010, 15:51
Well unless they errata it, and it has to be an errata not a FAQ, Telcis will be able to choose his lore at the start of the battle, unless it is wrong in the spanish army book.
Can anyone with the english version check his "Grand Master of Knowledge" rule? (the one that says that he knows all spells from a given lore)

Says the same, but that is a remnant of the old 7th ed. It will probably be FAQ'ed (which also almost always contains errata's). If not, then it's a huge facepalm, because teclis combined with a banner of sorcery is already too good for words. The combo can give you almost 12 PD garanteed for every magic phase on average and now that PD are in an army pool again, the rest of your mages can profit as well

HeroFox
30-06-2010, 17:07
Says the same, but that is a remnant of the old 7th ed. It will probably be FAQ'ed (which also almost always contains errata's). If not, then it's a huge facepalm, because teclis combined with a banner of sorcery is already too good for words. The combo can give you almost 12 PD garanteed for every magic phase on average and now that PD are in an army pool again, the rest of your mages can profit as well

Very true, except Teclis is a greedy bastard when casting spells and would rather throw out 7 dice first turn for a 25+ Purple Sun.

Besides, if you bring Teclis, most of your spells are going off at IF so your opponent will be floating around plenty of DD for that Lv1-2 supporting caster.

Col_Festus
30-06-2010, 17:38
I feel like Lore of Life is going to be an amazing lore to run with High Elves. It helps to mitigate a lot of their weaknesses while throne of vines can make a spectacular caster even better. Teclis for example can avoid miscasts on a 2+ leaving him to cast with higher dice a lot safer. Just some ideas floating around in my head.

Makoto00
30-06-2010, 18:03
Very true, except Teclis is a greedy bastard when casting spells and would rather throw out 7 dice first turn for a 25+ Purple Sun.

Besides, if you bring Teclis, most of your spells are going off at IF so your opponent will be floating around plenty of DD for that Lv1-2 supporting caster.

Sounds like with Teclis you can pretty much throw down the biggest spell you want, either Comet, Purple Sun, or Okhams Mindrazor.

Skyros
30-06-2010, 18:47
Says the same, but that is a remnant of the old 7th ed. It will probably be FAQ'ed (which also almost always contains errata's). If not, then it's a huge facepalm, because teclis combined with a banner of sorcery is already too good for words. The combo can give you almost 12 PD garanteed for every magic phase on average and now that PD are in an army pool again, the rest of your mages can profit as well

Having just fought an HE army with Teclis with banner of sorcery, he seems pretty unstoppable in 8e.

Basically every phase the HE player had 11-12 PD. I would have 6 or so DD, but that didn't matter, because Teclis would just throw a ton of dice at Pit of Shades, get an IF, then throw another ton of dice at another spell, and get another IF. He would often get one miscast (double 6's) in a round but I never saw him get 2 - and he can ignore the first.

So the magic phase would end with me having a ton of useless DD and him having savaged a couple units with no recourse. I don't think he got a non IF all game long :p My lonely dispell scroll was still unusued.

I'm uh, not sure what to do about that. IF on doubles, miscasts only on double 6's, and ignoring the first one, is pretty amazing. The ward save provided by MR doesn't even help with things like Pit of Shades either.

Maybe the scroll that does a wound on a 5 or 6 for each die the caster used? But that's not going to kill him and you only get one such scroll.

A reasonable alternative might be to FAQ those items to adding one power die instead of D3 power dice. It seems power dice are supposed to be 'rarer' than in 7e?

Things got a tiny bit better once I'd wiped out the unit with the banner of sorcery, but that only happened because he charged it into combat not knowing the unit they were facing would be stubborn. Otherwise I'm sure he would have just kept backing them up like the rest of his army.

Lord Shadowheart
30-06-2010, 18:52
Just a random thought, Banner of Sorcery and Teclis don't actually say when in the magic phase you add the power dice to the pool, so on the off chance you roll 10 or so for the pool, you use a few up, thenr oll for Teclis and the banner, thoughts?

Makoto00
30-06-2010, 18:59
Having just fought an HE army with Teclis with banner of sorcery, he seems pretty unstoppable in 8e.

Basically every phase the HE player had 11-12 PD. I would have 6 or so DD, but that didn't matter, because Teclis would just throw a ton of dice at Pit of Shades, get an IF, then throw another ton of dice at another spell, and get another IF. He would often get one miscast (double 6's) in a round but I never saw him get 2 - and he can ignore the first.

So the magic phase would end with me having a ton of useless DD and him having savaged a couple units with no recourse. I don't think he got a non IF all game long :p My lonely dispell scroll was still unusued.

I'm uh, not sure what to do about that. IF on doubles, miscasts only on double 6's, and ignoring the first one, is pretty amazing. The ward save provided by MR doesn't even help with things like Pit of Shades either.

Maybe the scroll that does a wound on a 5 or 6 for each die the caster used? But that's not going to kill him and you only get one such scroll.

A reasonable alternative might be to FAQ those items to adding one power die instead of D3 power dice. It seems power dice are supposed to be 'rarer' than in 7e?

Things got a tiny bit better once I'd wiped out the unit with the banner of sorcery, but that only happened because he charged it into combat not knowing the unit they were facing would be stubborn. Otherwise I'm sure he would have just kept backing them up like the rest of his army.

Feedback scroll, won't dispell the spell and gets around IF. The more dice he throws at it the better off you are. If he's throwing 6 dice, he should take 2 wounds with no saves.

Skyros
30-06-2010, 19:22
I mentioned that scroll - that should do 2 wounds to him, which isn't enough to kill him, even if he throws 6-7 dice. And I can't take more than one.

I need to find another way of doing one wound to him...lots of templates and hope he fails just one look out sir roll perhaps? Pretty much anything will wound him if it hits him.

HeroFox
30-06-2010, 21:50
Teclis' ability to throw IF hasn't changed since last Ed. Last Ed, I could constantly Vaul's Unmaking people's favorite magic items, Spirit of the Forge an entire Bret army into oblivion and Pit of Shades a Slann and his Temple Guard to their doom. In short, he has always been "unstoppable" (since that's kinda the idea of IF).

He's just one of those guys you have to get used to casting dangerous spells. He's going to throw big and he's going to get it off.. so you have to either threaten to caster kill him (with scrolls or flyers), or prepare to suffer the inevitable.

Playing against Slanns and Kairos will be just as miserable, but at least you get to feel important by throwing some DD.

Believe it or not, Slanns' are actually the best caster in 8th. They have all the right utility to cast an entire lore's worth of spells and keep the opposing wizards at bay.

Nocculum
30-06-2010, 22:06
Please don't forget that rolling an irresistible force also forces the caster to roll on the miscast chart...

Teclis might avoid the first, but you're going to think twice about rolling into a second I assure you.

Skyros
30-06-2010, 22:21
It's my understanding that Teclis' IF on non six doubles do not also cause miscasts - just as was the case in 7th.

Nocculum
30-06-2010, 22:53
* A spell cast with Irresistible Force automatically succeeds, even if it did not meet the spell's casting cost.

* Once the spell cast with IF has been resolved, the wizard then rolls on the miscast table to see if he has controlled or mitigated the feedback (paraphrased).

* An item that automatically generates IF would not require a roll on the table.

The third ruling, is somewhat clear but also ambiguous, as it states special rules or items that automatically generate a miscast or IF (such as Black Tongue). I am not experienced enough with wording to give a conclusive answer beyond what would appear to be guesswork and conjecture.

This information was gleaned from page 34 of the 8th Edition BRB, should anyone else be able to help clarify the matter (short of the forthcoming FAQ, which should tell all).

HeroFox
30-06-2010, 23:02
As of right now, Teclis will only IF AND Miscast on double 6s.

Typical magic phase:

1. If he casts 6,6,4,4 for his first spell, he'll IF and miscast, but Warhelm of Saphery will dispel it.
1. If he casts another spell for 6,5,4,4, he'll get IF without the miscast.
1. If he casts another spell and rolls 1,2,6,6 he'll IF WITH miscast.

All these cast values must still reach the spell's casting value because it specifically says so under Book of Hoeth and Teclis' own copy.

However, if someone casts a spell and IFs AND Miscasts regularly (without Book of Hoeth), then their spell goes off automatically regardless or whether or not they hit the casting value. This is both good and bad. Good because spells got a lot more powerful, bad because miscasts are more dangerous.

Longrunripper
30-06-2010, 23:06
However, the part you paraphrased, whilst I don't have the book in font of me, specifically refers to rolling double sixes (since the book 'assumes' that's the only way to score IF).
(I wish these queries wouldn't come up after i've just left the LGS...)
I'm fairly certain the third bullet point you make exists in the context of 'items and abilities' that generate Irresistible Force and Miscasts independently of the other work as written e.g. The Ring of Hotek makes any double (I believe?) a miscast without being a Irresistible Force (except on double 6) and the Book of Hoeth/Teclis gets IF on any double without Miscasting (other than a double 6).
Now if Teclis scores a double against someone with a Ring of Hotek, then the spell goes off with IF, and Teclis gets punched in the face with a Miscast.

Sparowl
01-07-2010, 05:33
I'm fairly certain we can all agree on one thing: That the issue needs to be resolved with an FAQ. So its better off waiting for that to happen.

Question: Is Teclis allowed to throw as many dice as he wants? Because the normal dice cap is now 6 for all wizards.

That being said, I really do hope they FAQ him down a little, because he is going to be ridiculously good otherwise. Far more then his points cost is worth. Generating D3 power/dispel dice is much much more powerful in this edition, especially the D3 dispel dice. Ignoring the first miscast is also really good.

On the other hand, certain lores will kill him easily. Death will snipe him quickly if you can get the spells off, Life kills him on a 2+ if you get Dweller's Beneath off on the unit, etc.

We'll just have to see what happens.

ScytheSwathe
01-07-2010, 06:20
That and the scroll to do wounds on 5+ for each power die, and the one to turn him into a frog. Dont get me wrong, hes going to be a very powerful character, but i think 8th ed is designed to give get out clauses against any especially beardy builds. Which i see as a good thing.

The only thing which i think will really get through the change without a blatent easy counter is the slann. That could get to be a bit too good.
Still theres always pit of shades if you can get that magic edge. Otherwise, good luck.


EDIT* I realise the counters ive given for teclis work just as well on a slann, but the slann has such a variety of other tricks up its sleeve, and is typically hidden in a block of temple guard, which are essentially immune to combat.

CmdrLaw
01-07-2010, 10:51
I have been considering the relative points cost of upgrading magic lvls....

Would normally go with a lvl 4 & 2, but now conisdering jsut runing the lvl 3 &1.

Seeing as its only a +1 on the cast for each level maybe the focus should be more on more dice through items and channeling points there.

Or maybe a lvl 4 + book ashur to give 1 big caster/dispeller and a lvl 1 to chuck dice around.

Although I have forgotten the access to more spells which probably does make it more worthwhile :angel:

SatireSphere
01-07-2010, 14:13
For the time being: here's some critical reading for you:

8th edition Miscasts:
"When irresistible force occurs, first resolve the effect of the spell that the Wizard was attempting to cast. ... Once the effect of the spell has been resolved, the Wizard now needs to roll 2d6 on the miscast table to see what happens to him."

Teclis' War Crown of Saphery:
"Teclis may ignore the effects of the first miscast he makes each turn. The spell is still a failure..."

Teclis' High Loremaster:
"...In addition, any spell cast by Teclis will be cast with Irresistible Force on each casting roll which includes a double..."

So the sum of all of that means, if Teclis rolls any doubles, he gets irresistible force, but by virtue of the War Crown of Saphery, he is protected from the miscast at the cost of his spell failing.

He just plain doesn't work until the FAQ fixes it.

Desert Rain
01-07-2010, 14:38
It needs a FAQ to clarify but it seems very likely that he will get IF on any double but only roll on the table for a double 6, which he is protected from the first time it happens each turn. I would be rather surprised if it was FAQ:ed in another way.

Pskyrunner
01-07-2010, 14:44
the FaQ says for book of hoeth that every double except 6s is IF without rolling on miscast table. didnt look up on teclis but it will be the same i guess

Infiltraitor
01-07-2010, 15:40
Sorry to throw the thread off of the current topic. I was hoping to get some insight on Shadow Warriors. I've been up against a Dark Elf player for my first couple of matches (a completely brutal army with an answer for everything it seems) and I've had a hell of a time dealing with a pair of Dark Rider units, both 10 strong. Would Shadow Warriors be a worthy counter?

ColShaw
01-07-2010, 16:59
Sadly, Shadow Warriors are pretty much terrible for their cost. Don't let the Eternal Hatred of Dark Elves let you think they'll be good in a fight, even against the Druchii (a single S3 attack each is nothing to write home about).

I think the best counter to Dark Riders is shooting them to death. Ordinary bowfire, even, will cut them down in 1-2 volleys. And Magic Missiles will murder them.

Reborn
01-07-2010, 17:06
Sorry to throw the thread off of the current topic. I was hoping to get some insight on Shadow Warriors. I've been up against a Dark Elf player for my first couple of matches (a completely brutal army with an answer for everything it seems) and I've had a hell of a time dealing with a pair of Dark Rider units, both 10 strong. Would Shadow Warriors be a worthy counter?

What trouble have you had with them? Your units now get a free reform move so long as they have a musician in their unit, if I remember correctly, so if it's a case of they're running around your blocks and being a pain then that should help remedy it?
Skirmishers have taken abit of a nerf imo, shame cos I quite liked them in 7th Ed, even though they didn't compare to other Elf Skirmishers. Lack of 360 LoS and changes to march-blocking, among other things such as spacing and forming up in combat, have pretty much removed them from my list.

Also has anybody thought about a 30 strong LSG unit? Im considering it at 2,500pts. Horde formation (10x3) when charged is 25 shots and then 30 attacks with re-rolls to hit, a 4+ armour save and a 6+ ward save, in combat. I know its abit of a magnet for every and any template weapon though =(

deadmeat30
01-07-2010, 17:17
Why not 50 LSG? (10x5) 35 shots per turn, and 50 attacks if there unit is same width, With I5 and ASF, OUCH!!! and then if your magic heavy. Have the lore of Life, and first cast Throne of Vines on your mage (doubles the spell effects) then cast Flesh of stone (which would now add +4T!!!) making a rock hard unit of toughness 7 elves!! hahahahahaha. Give them the magic resisence banner, or add Caradryll. My word.........

Maarten K
01-07-2010, 17:27
Also has anybody thought about a 30 strong LSG unit? Im considering it at 2,500pts. Horde formation (10x3) when charged is 25 shots and then 30 attacks with re-rolls to hit, a 4+ armour save and a 6+ ward save, in combat. I know its abit of a magnet for every and any template weapon though =(

4+ armour save and 6+ ward. you mean 5+ and no ward.

wamphyri101
01-07-2010, 17:29
Why not 50 sea guard?

A: Hell of alot of points (like 700+)

B: Sittign target. A template will decimate them. Even the size of it leaves us with less points for flank protection

C: Just because magic has changed alot do you really think you will get all your spells off to "buff" your unit? I doubt it. I managed 1 turn out of 6 to get 2 buffs on a unit of white lions and thats it. Its harder than you think

2 units of 25 would be far more useful

Magic will not be the be end off all tactics.

I think alot of people will take alot of magic and large units to begin but that just wont cut it for alot of armies.

Reborn
01-07-2010, 17:38
4+ armour save and 6+ ward. you mean 5+ and no ward.

No 4+ and 6+ ward, if they're using their hand weapon and shield, which is why I only said 30. 50 if you want to go all 5 ranks fighting ofc and spend alot of points.

Just see alot of flexibility @ 30. Like I said 10 wide 3 deep against horde formations for the stats above or switch back to a 6x5 or 5x6, nominate spears and shields for the attacks and to remove steadfast if needed to help break them quicker.

Falkman
01-07-2010, 17:55
No 4+ and 6+ ward, if they're using their hand weapon and shield, which is why I only said 30. 50 if you want to go all 5 ranks fighting ofc and spend alot of points.
It would be a 5+ save and 6+ ward, since the +1 to armour saves from parry no longer exists, it is now the 6+ ward.
They cannot use the parry however, since they have spears, and models with weapons other than hand weapons must use these weapons.
Hence you are forced to use your spears with no way to get the parry bonus.

Sparowl
01-07-2010, 18:00
No 4+ and 6+ ward, if they're using their hand weapon and shield, which is why I only said 30. 50 if you want to go all 5 ranks fighting ofc and spend alot of points.

If you have Spears, you must use them. You cannot choose to use HW&S over a special weapon anymore.

I saw a recent game with 50 LSG, a lvl 4 w/ 2+ save against magic for the unit, a BSB, and Alith Anar all in the same unit. Really big, really nasty. A lot of points.

Became really good when the Lvl 4 threw Mindrazor on the unit (unit now uses their Leadership value as their Strength. S8/9 Elves.).

HeroFox
01-07-2010, 18:05
Sure, you wound on 2s, but its not modified by the actual strength value when determining armor saves.

That deathstar would utterly die against something like Dwellers from Below. That's one of the reasons those type of spells exist in the first place :)

Infiltraitor
01-07-2010, 18:29
Primarily the Vanguard move they get to make puts 40 shots into the backs of my army or bolt thrower crews during his first turn. I was also considering a pair of great eagles. I like the idea of LSG, just not in bricks of 50, I would try two 25 man units but 50 logistically seems impractical. I have to say, playing his Dark elves have given me a new found respect for High Magic. Drain magic, shield, and courage make the lore well worth it even with the lores getting an upgrade.

Falkman
01-07-2010, 18:44
Sure, you wound on 2s, but its not modified by the actual strength value when determining armor saves.
Yes it is, nothing speaks against it.
What you use to wound is what calculates the armor save, so if you wound someone with S10 they sure as hell is taking a save according to that as well.

HeroFox
01-07-2010, 19:02
Yes it is, nothing speaks against it.
What you use to wound is what calculates the armor save, so if you wound someone with S10 they sure as hell is taking a save according to that as well.

How much would you like to wager?

(It says here in the spell description that strength modifiers do not apply ;))

Falkman
01-07-2010, 19:50
It says that strength bonuses from weapons are ignored.
Now Okkam's Mindrazor is not a weapon, however a great weapon or a halberd is.
Thus it is clear that it is refering to strength bonuses gained from these weapons, not the spell itself (which, again, is not a weapon).

Longrunripper
01-07-2010, 19:58
Sure, you wound on 2s, but its not modified by the actual strength value when determining armor saves.

That deathstar would utterly die against something like Dwellers from Below. That's one of the reasons those type of spells exist in the first place :)
I've been looking at 30 LSG with Teclis and essentially, a Banner of the World Dragon. Sure Teclis can no longer buff the unit, but as mentioned, you can only buff so much, and there will be other things on the table worthy of the myriad buff available (e.g. White Lions, Phoenix Guard etc.), and means that dwellers below, amber spear, thunderbolt, purple sun and pit of shades all get ignored. Armies without warmachines will struggle to kill Teclis in that unit.

Furthermore, as to the cries of the various scrolls that threaten the bucket o' power dice game style, the get around for that is to just delete the item with Vaul's Unmaking. However, I'm of the opinion that High Magic, whilst easy to cast and versatile, isn't as devastating as Life, Shadow and the other Lores HeroFox has gone into.


How much would you like to wager?

(It says here in the spell description that strength modifiers do not apply ;))
Ahh, I've been looking for that. I'd read anecdotally that strength doesn't modify armour saves, but found the armour save modifier table in the rBRB today. Applies only to the spell.
Is the armour save still affected by the units original strength?

Falkman
01-07-2010, 20:15
The strength from the spell does modify armour saves...

HeroFox
01-07-2010, 20:16
It says that strength bonuses from weapons are ignored.
Now Okkam's Mindrazor is not a weapon, however a great weapon or a halberd is.
Thus it is clear that it is refering to strength bonuses gained from these weapons, not the spell itself (which, again, is not a weapon).

Well, I no longer have the BRB in front of me, but let's run through the spell together.

Is it unmodified Ld. of the unit or can it be modified by Teclis and his Ld. 10?

Once cast, does it mean that S8 Spear Elves (assuming its unmodified), apply a armor modifier of -5 for each attack?

And someone like Dragon Princes charging, discounting their Lances bonuses (as you mentioned) is S9, -6 armor?

I was under the complete assumption (and I read the spell multiple times) that strength modifiers do not apply.

If you can assure me that strength modifiers apply, then holy **** I'm going to revisit the spell.

Falkman
01-07-2010, 20:45
The exact wording of the spell is as follows:

Okkam's Mindrazor Cast on 18+
Okkam's Mindrazor is an augment spell with a range of 18" and lasts until the start of the caster's next magic phase.
Models in the target unit use their Leadership instead of Strength when rolling to wound with all close combat attacks whilst the spell remains in effect (any strength bonuses from weapons are ignored).
The Wizard can choose to extend the range of this spell to 36". If he does so, the casting value of Okkam's Mindrazor is increased to 21+.

Symrivven
01-07-2010, 21:33
The exact wording of the spell is as follows:

Okkam's Mindrazor Cast on 18+
Okkam's Mindrazor is an augment spell with a range of 18" and lasts until the start of the caster's next magic phase.
Models in the target unit use their Leadership instead of Strength when rolling to wound with all close combat attacks whilst the spell remains in effect (any strength bonuses from weapons are ignored).
The Wizard can choose to extend the range of this spell to 36". If he does so, the casting value of Okkam's Mindrazor is increased to 21+.

Models in the target unit use their Leadership instead of Strength when rolling to wound with all close combat attacks
So it doesn't even change your strength, only in the specific case of rolling to wound in hth may you use your leadership instead of strength.
In addition it doesn't specifically state you modify armour saves with your leadership, so the normal rules stay in effect and you modify armour saves with your strength (which in the case of the armour saves isn't changed, modified or switched for an other stat).

HeroFox
01-07-2010, 21:33
The exact wording of the spell is as follows:

Okkam's Mindrazor Cast on 18+
Okkam's Mindrazor is an augment spell with a range of 18" and lasts until the start of the caster's next magic phase.
Models in the target unit use their Leadership instead of Strength when rolling to wound with all close combat attacks whilst the spell remains in effect (any strength bonuses from weapons are ignored).
The Wizard can choose to extend the range of this spell to 36". If he does so, the casting value of Okkam's Mindrazor is increased to 21+.

My head just exploded.

Are you sure that it modifies armor though?

Falkman
01-07-2010, 21:39
Armour saves are modified by the strength of the wounding hit, you are hitting and wounding with S=Ld, why shouldn't it be?


Models in the target unit use their Leadership instead of Strength when rolling to wound with all close combat attacks
So it doesn't even change your strength, only in the specific case of rolling to wound in hth may you use your leadership instead of strength.
In addition it doesn't specifically state you modify armour saves with your leadership, so the normal rules stay in effect and you modify armour saves with your strength (which in the case of the armour saves isn't changed, modified or switched for an other stat).

Your strength IS your Ld value when you attack. Saves are modified by the strength of the wounding attack, and since you are attacking with S=Ld you modify saves with that as well.
Your attack is S=Ld at the time you wound, and since this is all that matters you use that strength to modify.

Desert Rain
01-07-2010, 22:42
Armour saves are modified by the strength of the wounding hit, you are hitting and wounding with S=Ld, why shouldn't it be?



Your strength IS your Ld value when you attack. Saves are modified by the strength of the wounding attack, and since you are attacking with S=Ld you modify saves with that as well.
Your attack is S=Ld at the time you wound, and since this is all that matters you use that strength to modify.
This is how I've been interpreting it as well, and I think it is the intention with the spell. Otherwise it would be a bit meh considering the T debuff spell that's also in the lore.

geldedgoat
02-07-2010, 03:14
Models in the target unit use their Leadership instead of Strength when rolling to wound with all close combat attacks whilst the spell remains in effect (any strength bonuses from weapons are ignored).

If that is the exact wording of the spell, then it's pretty clear that the spell has no effect on armor saves. Strength is only modified when rolling to wound, not when rolling for armor saves. An errata would be needed to have it affect armor saves, too.

Symrivven
02-07-2010, 09:01
If that is the exact wording of the spell, then it's pretty clear that the spell has no effect on armor saves. Strength is only modified when rolling to wound, not when rolling for armor saves. An errata would be needed to have it affect armor saves, too.

Indeed, if they wanted armour saves to be modified as well, then why state so specifically "when rolling to wound" and not something like: "during the close combat face", "when figting in close combat", or "when rolling to wound and calculating armour save modifiers".


Your strength IS your Ld value when you attack. Saves are modified by the strength of the wounding attack, and since you are attacking with S=Ld you modify saves with that as well.quote from the spell:

use their Leadership instead of StrengthYour strength is not your leadership, you use leadership instead of strength those two are slightly different.
In this case your strength stays the same, but when looking at the to wound table you may use your leadership value instead of yours strength value to see what you need to roll to wound.
Even if the wording would be that your strength = leadership then it still says in the spell that it only counts when rolling to wound.

This is the last I say about this in this tread, as i think it is more apropriate in the rules forum then here, and I made my point, if you wont see it then no amount of discussion will change it.

Casshole
02-07-2010, 11:07
hmm didnt think of it that way but i think your right.

Anyone else notice the RBTs now have 2 wounds? Crew = wounds in new edition. Im kinda bummed about that I must say.

wamphyri101
02-07-2010, 11:24
I read this spell correctly the other day just to check as it sounded too good to be true.

It is correct that your leadership stat becomes your strength. So str3 Spearmen become Str 8.

You DO NOT however get the strength modifer Bonus. So your hitting at strength 8 but with no armour save mod.

And yup, bolt throwers go a bit of a nurf. Just means you have to protect them better, but think of the lovly horde units you get to shoot at.

Falkman
02-07-2010, 11:46
You DO NOT however get the strength modifer Bonus. So your hitting at strength 8 but with no armour save mod.
From weapons for god's sake! It says you do not get S bonuses from weapons, nothing else.

deadmeat30
02-07-2010, 12:47
Falkman is correct, the wording is 'from weapons' so normal 'strength' can affect the armour save.

HeroFox
02-07-2010, 16:51
Hero on your blog you wrote that for the 6 spell of shadow the units new strength does negate armor. How sure are you of this? Its basically a lore clincher if so.

That's pretty much what we're all debating about right now.

Let's read the spell word for word again and you tell me if I'm correct:


Okkam's Mindrazor Cast on 18+
Okkam's Mindrazor is an augment spell with a range of 18" and lasts until the start of the caster's next magic phase.
Models in the target unit use their Leadership instead of Strength when rolling to wound with all close combat attacks whilst the spell remains in effect (any strength bonuses from weapons are ignored).
The Wizard can choose to extend the range of this spell to 36". If he does so, the casting value of Okkam's Mindrazor is increased to 21+.

Models use their leadership instead of strength when rolling to wound in all close combat attacks.

At first, I was like.. eh... instead of strength would apply that I only use the number and not the characteristic.. but then the rolling to wound part suggests it is in fact, a characteristic.

.... (any strength bonuses from weapons are ignored)

Weapons aka Lances, Great Weapons are strength bonuses. A S3 Spearmen becoming S8 is a result of a spell. Strength, just like magic missile strength, or a spell from the Beasts' Lore, can be augmented just like this can. Although you won't get S10 DPs because they charged with a Lance this turn, they will still be S9 when attacking because of their leadership.

Now...

If the spell did in fact want strength modifiers to apply to armor saves, then the correct wording would of been "models use their leadership AS THEIR strength when rolling to wound..." but sadly, it does not. Instead, they had to word it all weird and open to interpretation.

To help this case though, it's the last spell in the lore; on the likes of Purple Sun, Dwellers and other death spells. It could very well be that it modifies their strength value and thus the armor value, or else it wouldn't make sense to be in the last spot.

With this in mind, I'm going with that by design, or RAI, that it indeed, modifies the armor saves of your target ala strength values.

ColShaw
02-07-2010, 17:44
If that read is correct, it makes Mindrazor absolutely SAVAGE on Spearelves, who will generally be attacking in 4 ranks, rerolling misses, on most enemy infantry. Yikes.

I think it probably is correct; 18+ to cast ain't that easy a roll, and as you said, it goes with the other level-6 super-kill spells.

I gotta upgrade my wizards.

King_Pash
02-07-2010, 20:16
This topic is getting a little stale, let's throw out a little curveball: What do you think would be a nasty elite-unit combo for HE in 8th ed? 50x Phoenix guard with AP banner? 30x Lions with flaming attacks?

What do you think would make an enemy go :eek: when you deploy this unit?

ColShaw
02-07-2010, 20:24
I think Phoenix Guard in general are pretty awesome, and Korhil would certainly work well with them. I'd never use 50 of them, however (750 points without command upgrade?!)

I think a really scary thing, honestly, is a Horde-formation of Seaguard or Spearmen with AP banner. SO MANY ARMOR PIERCING ATTACKS! And 50 Spearmen is a more affordable 450 points.

I've always liked to put my heroes/lords in the main line regiments, rather than in the elite units, since the elites don't need the help as much, so my Prince hangs out with the Spearelves.

How about this: Lothern Seaguard, say, 30 of them, with AP banner and a Noble with Reaver Bow? Even 5x6 formation, you're flinging out 23 shots, 3 of them S5, with armor piercing, and fighting pretty hard in close combat. And that's not a unit that'll break the bank, either.

Von Wibble
02-07-2010, 20:36
I thought the AP banner was over 25 points? In which case, to have it LSG would need a BSB present. So imo such a unit would break the bank.

ColShaw
02-07-2010, 21:09
Hmm... good point. Sigh.

Desert Rain
02-07-2010, 21:14
I'm still not convinced about units of 50 spears/sea guard, they just seems to be to inflexible and a lot of points in one basket. I believe that 2 units of 25 are better since they give you greater flexibility and still give you plenty of attacks and shots each turn.

Desert Rain
03-07-2010, 09:54
Great and comprehensive review HeroFox. The carnage that the shooting phase wrought on you scares me a bit, stone throwers are insane in this edition it seems. At least until they get a hefty points increase with the new army books.

SeaSwift
03-07-2010, 10:19
I particularly like the fact that everything can be amazing, but only when backed up by other things (like War Machines).

Anyway, how do people feel about RBTs? I think that, although they don't compare to the likes of Dwarf Cannons, they may still be deadly with the new TLoS rules. However, with most Bolt Thrower favoured targets (Monsters/small, elite units) gone, the single bolt may not be useful a lot of the time. Good thing we have Volley!

Desert Rain
03-07-2010, 12:46
RBTs are going to be really vulnerable since everything can wound them and they only have 2 wounds. It is still our only way to get high S shooting without magical bows but they are becoming more overcosted than they already are.

Galatan
03-07-2010, 14:37
Ya I find the whole 2 wounds only kinda a big setback for RBT's, but sadly it was the only was for HE to get non magical high strength shooting. The only quick solution I see now is relying on magic to deal with big bad monsters from afar., but that is VERY unreliable compared to the bolt thrower.

Casshole
03-07-2010, 15:11
Well the LSG and Archers have upgraded ability to spam arrows and those will wound on 6 no matter what. Probly still run one rbt but i never really ran all that many. At least now they wont panic off the board!

Also Im gonna guess that the augment spells are gonna b big for the HE, can't wait to cast that savage beast on Eltharion (with eltharion)

Im thinkin the LSG would b good with the flaming banner, since they cannot have the AP one. All the sudden the Hydra, vargulf and Abom are not so tough. Take 16 flaming arrows/20 flaming spears! that will b awful vs Star Dragon but still sound tactics.

HeroFox
03-07-2010, 22:08
So... to give you guys an example of what you have to look forward to in 8th, here's my Dwarf list:


1974
Dwarves

HEROES:
Thane (Shield, RoStone, RoFury, RoFury, RoCleaving) = 142
Thane (BSB, MRoGromil, RoResistance, RoPreservation) = 155
Runesmith (Shield, MRoBalance, RoSpellbreaking) = 147

CORE:
20x Warriors (FC, Shields) = 205
20x Warriors (FC, Shields) = 205
10x Thunderers (Shields) = 150

SPECIAL:
Cannon (RoForging) = 120
Cannon (RoForging, RoBurning) = 125
Grudge Thrower (RoAccuracy, RoPenetration) = 130
Grudge Thrower (RoAccuracy, RoPenetration, RoBurning) = 135
20x Hammerers (FC, Shields, MRoGrungi) = 340

RARE:
Organ Gun = 120

This is only at 2K points too.. and I'm slightly under.

Can your all-comers High Elf list beat this? If you think you can, how?

SeaSwift
03-07-2010, 22:22
Ellyrion Reavers/Eagles would reasonably easily take down those War Machines - other than that, try to get into combat with the Warriors as swiftly as possible, and ignore/bypass the Hammerers.

I shall put together a 2K all comers list.

HeroFox
03-07-2010, 22:28
Ellyrion Reavers/Eagles would reasonably easily take down those War Machines - other than that, try to get into combat with the Warriors as swiftly as possible, and ignore/bypass the Hammerers.

I shall put together a 2K all comers list.

Yeah I'm not so sure about that.

The Organ Gun poses a huge threat to both and Thunderers easily gun down both those units; especially if the Reavers Vanguard.

And if you go second.. it'll be sad times for your army :( Good thing is that there'll be a lot of different missions that'll force Dwarves to play outside their comfort zone.

I can see most Elves going into a 10x2 formation and moving up with that just to decrease the amount of damage that can be done to your units. Elves die in the dozens to S4 Stone Throwers and no partials. It's just ridiculous.

Avatar of the Eldar
04-07-2010, 02:28
Hey Asur,

I'm considering dropping both RBT's to add 2 units of 10 archers. Why?

- Str 3 archers wound on 6's now
- 8 more shots between the two units
- 16 more wounds
- They can move (and shoot) and can get away from/counter tunneling teams etc.
- They could flank and negate ranks if at full strenght (5x2)
- RBT's no longer armor piercing

Yeah, I need to free up 20 points to make the swap. But what do you think?

Oh, and Banner of Eternal Flame seems like a must have with a big block of Seaguard. 28 in 4x7 in the middle of the board delivers 21 flaming arrows for a couple turns. Hello Trolls! Hello Varghulf! Combine with Curse of Arrow Attraction followed by more shooting (esp RBTs) and good night.

HeroFox
04-07-2010, 02:33
What do you mean RBTs are no longer armor piercing?

Avatar of the Eldar
04-07-2010, 02:36
Ellyrion Reavers/Eagles would reasonably easily take down those War Machines - other than that, try to get into combat with the Warriors as swiftly as possible, and ignore/bypass the Hammerers.

No offense brother, but you've got another thought coming. Dwarven shooting would vaporize those units (esp with the new retarded TLOS) in one round.

Avatar of the Eldar
04-07-2010, 02:37
What do you mean RBTs are no longer armor piercing?

Maybe that's just stone throwers. I assumed (the worst) in that it's all war machines. I'd happily be wrong on this one.

HeroFox
04-07-2010, 02:41
Maybe that's just stone throwers. I assumed (the worst) in that it's all war machines. I'd happily be wrong on this one.

Hmm.. I don't think you're using the term right.

Armor Piercing is different than.. RBTs' volley being S4 and -2 armor saves or Organ Guns S5 -3.

It's like AP.. but its not.

Chaos257
04-07-2010, 02:43
Looks like high elf will be the strongest race of all now.

Falkman
04-07-2010, 03:04
Nothing has changed regarding Bolt throwers and armour.
High Elves will definitely be strong, but I strongly doubt they'll be the strongest army of all.
That "honour" will probably befall the Druchii.

Infiltraitor
04-07-2010, 03:17
Trying for suggestions again. Anyone have a counter for Dark Riders? Specifically 2 units of 10? I'm working a 2k army with 4 games under my belt and no answer for them. I have little doubt that DE's are possibly the best army now. Their choices and units are too damn good.

Chaos257
04-07-2010, 03:20
Nothing has changed regarding Bolt throwers and armour.
High Elves will definitely be strong, but I strongly doubt they'll be the strongest army of all.
That "honour" will probably befall the Druchii.

What is initiative of an elf ? You'll be striking first, re-rolling misses and shooting to bits.

Falkman
04-07-2010, 03:29
What is initiative of an elf ? You'll be striking first, re-rolling misses and shooting to bits.
The Dark Elves have combat troops that are as good as ours (Black Guard), monsters that are better (Dragons with hatred, Hydra), rank and file troops that are cheaper, shooting that is both cheaper and better, more devastating magic phases, better magic items.
How on earth do you figure High Elves are better than Dark Elves?

Yes we get re-rolls, but they are much cheaper and can just pincushion our elite troops with their underpriced crossbows.
I won't be "shooting stuff to bits" with my overpriced longbowmen, that's for sure.

Draconian77
04-07-2010, 04:06
I don't think that the Black Dragon has its riders Hatred anymore (or at least that was a rumour at some point), and I'm quite certain that the High Elves have the better magic phase all things considered. Teclis aside, you have the Annulian Crystal, the Banner of Sorcer and the Book of Hoeth, all of which are very powerful items in 8th ed. (In addition to the +1 to Dispel bonus that you have.)

The Dark Elves basically only have the Sacrificial Dagger when it comes to mounting a seriously offensive magic phase, and that has its own problems. (Costs a lot of points if you include the Spearmen, limits the Sorceress's mobility, limits her line of sight, etc, etc) In addition, the DE's ability to cast with more PD than their wizard level+1 is now something which all races can do free of charge.

With those sort of things in mind, I think the gap which existed between the two races in 7th ed has been mostly closed. (The Druchii are still a bit ahead of course. ;))

*From our groups test games so far, Phoenix Guard are looking very nice this edition.

Falkman
04-07-2010, 04:15
I'm basing the Dragon hatred on the last edition change, where Mark of Khorne said "Remember that the Frenzy is not transferred to the mount", and then 7th came along, with Frenzy passing over to mounts. Despite this their FAQ said that since the rules for the Mark said it didn't work, it didn't. I'm expecting the same from Eternal hatred, it says the mounts get the hatred, thus the new FAQ will allow it.

The Sacrifical dagger alone makes the Dark elf magic phase one of the best in the game.
You didn't mention Power of Darkness though, which also helps the Dark Elf magic quite a lot.

Phoenix Guard will indeed be nice, shame they don't have two attacks as their hated cousins do ;).

I made a list that I think will be really fun, what do you guys think about it, can it perform as well?

Archmage: lvl 4, Lore of Life, Staff of Solidity, Talisman of Preservation

Noble: BSB, great weapon, Armour of Caledor, Guardian phoenix

25 Lothern sea guard: Full command, Banner of Eternal flame (it does not include The Bangles)

2x10 Archers: musicians

14 White lions: Full command, Banner of Sorcery

14 White lions: Full command

2 Tiranoc chariots

5 Ellyrian reavers: standard, musician

6 Dragon (Lion) princes: standard, musician

1 Eagle claw bolt thrower

1 Great eagle

Draconian77
04-07-2010, 06:02
I hadn't considered the upcoming errata, time will tell I guess. Maybe it's just me, but it would seem odd to change a specific part of the Hatred rule just to have that specific change ignored by the army which makes the widest use of the rule in question!

Personally (as a DE player), I still think that the Sacrificial Dagger is highly overated. I would gladly swap my mages and mage-supporting items for the High Elf equivalents.

I would also swap the Black Guards extra attack for that 4+ Ward in a heartbeat. :D

As for the list, just a few observations;

-Would the BsB not be better off with the Dawnstone in place of the Guardian Phoenix? Running the numbers shows that the re-roll is better against attacks of Strength 1-5, the same against attacks of Strength 6 and only worse against attacks of S7+. I think that it's a little cheaper too.

-If it was me, I probably wouldn't take the Dragon Princes. I'm just not sure about cavalry this edition, especially Elven cavalry which is both frail (T3 and "only" a 2+ save) and relatively expensive. No idea what I would replace them with though.

-The Reavers I would swap for more Eagles. Similar roles, but I imagine that several Eagles would be more versatile point-for-point. If I understand the rumours correctly, you will be able to have as many Eagles as you want (under 25%) and I could see some High Elf armies running 3-4 of the over-sized chickens.

Falkman
04-07-2010, 06:26
-Would the BsB not be better off with the Dawnstone in place of the Guardian Phoenix? Running the numbers shows that the re-roll is better against attacks of Strength 1-5, the same against attacks of Strength 6 and only worse against attacks of S7+. I think that it's a little cheaper too.
The ward save is there to protect against stuff that doesn't allow saves (Death snipes, Gehenna's golden hounds etc).


-If it was me, I probably wouldn't take the Dragon Princes. I'm just not sure about cavalry this edition, especially Elven cavalry which is both frail (T3 and "only" a 2+ save) and relatively expensive. No idea what I would replace them with though.
I was also thinking about not taking any heavy cav, but I've tried them out in a couple of games, and they pretty much stomp all over anything they can get their hands on. I've had them break two Bretonnian lances simultaneously, and just yesterday I was playing against a WoC army, I frontal charged his unit of 15 Warriors with halberds, it also contained a Sorcerer lord. I killed 7 guys, lost 3 to return attacks, won combat by four and ran down his lord and anvil unit. Not too shabby for a unit just shy of 200 points.


-The Reavers I would swap for more Eagles. Similar roles, but I imagine that several Eagles would be more versatile point-for-point. If I understand the rumours correctly, you will be able to have as many Eagles as you want (under 25%) and I could see some High Elf armies running 3-4 of the over-sized chickens.
The reavers are in mainly because I want some diversity in the army, plus there's gonna be reavers in the new box set, might as well put them to use.
They also get to re-roll their failed hit rolls, something the eagles can't do.

HeroFox
04-07-2010, 06:28
Looks like high elf will be the strongest race of all now.

Stop trolling please.


-The Reavers I would swap for more Eagles. Similar roles, but I imagine that several Eagles would be more versatile point-for-point. If I understand the rumours correctly, you will be able to have as many Eagles as you want (under 25%) and I could see some High Elf armies running 3-4 of the over-sized chickens.

It's all a ploy to buy more 20 dollar models.

Pskyrunner
04-07-2010, 07:40
I don't think that the Black Dragon has its riders Hatred anymore (or at least that was a rumour at some point), and I'm quite certain that the High Elves have the better magic phase all things considered. Teclis aside, you have the Annulian Crystal, the Banner of Sorcer and the Book of Hoeth, all of which are very powerful items in 8th ed. (In addition to the +1 to Dispel bonus that you have.)

The Dark Elves basically only have the Sacrificial Dagger when it comes to mounting a seriously offensive magic phase, and that has its own problems. (Costs a lot of points if you include the Spearmen, limits the Sorceress's mobility, limits her line of sight, etc, etc) In addition, the DE's ability to cast with more PD than their wizard level+1 is now something which all races can do free of charge.

With those sort of things in mind, I think the gap which existed between the two races in 7th ed has been mostly closed. (The Druchii are still a bit ahead of course. ;))

*From our groups test games so far, Phoenix Guard are looking very nice this edition.

no they will keep hatred on mounts like HE keep their ASF and DE magic phase is very powerful if u use the right spells

but i agree with book of hoeth being ridiculous strong tho

The_Lemon
04-07-2010, 12:00
1974
Dwarves

HEROES:
Thane (Shield, RoStone, RoFury, RoFury, RoCleaving) = 142
Thane (BSB, MRoGromil, RoResistance, RoPreservation) = 155
Runesmith (Shield, MRoBalance, RoSpellbreaking) = 147

CORE:
20x Warriors (FC, Shields) = 205
20x Warriors (FC, Shields) = 205
10x Thunderers (Shields) = 150

SPECIAL:
Cannon (RoForging) = 120
Cannon (RoForging, RoBurning) = 125
Grudge Thrower (RoAccuracy, RoPenetration) = 130
Grudge Thrower (RoAccuracy, RoPenetration, RoBurning) = 135
20x Hammerers (FC, Shields, MRoGrungi) = 340

RARE:
Organ Gun = 120

Are you sure that list is legal under 8th edition rules? I went to my local store yesterday and read the part where they say the rules for army composition and translated to english it says:
"An army cannot have more than 3 special units of the same type, nor more than 2 rare of the same type"
The keyword here is "type", because it refers to type of unit, that is no more than 3 infantry, 3 warmachines, 3 monstruous cavalry, etc.
Of course it could be a translation error but if it is not then warmachines will not be that of a problem to us because I do not think there is any army with warmachines as core troops.

Desert Rain
04-07-2010, 12:33
Are you sure that list is legal under 8th edition rules? I went to my local store yesterday and read the part where they say the rules for army composition and translated to english it says:
"An army cannot have more than 3 special units of the same type, nor more than 2 rare of the same type"
The keyword here is "type", because it refers to type of unit, that is no more than 3 infantry, 3 warmachines, 3 monstruous cavalry, etc.
Of course it could be a translation error but if it is not then warmachines will not be that of a problem to us because I do not think there is any army with warmachines as core troops.
I haven't heard it like that before, but if it's true then it makes more sense for high elves to ignore the restrictions.

Falkman
04-07-2010, 12:39
Are you sure that list is legal under 8th edition rules? I went to my local store yesterday and read the part where they say the rules for army composition and translated to english it says:
"An army cannot have more than 3 special units of the same type, nor more than 2 rare of the same type"
The keyword here is "type", because it refers to type of unit, that is no more than 3 infantry, 3 warmachines, 3 monstruous cavalry, etc.
Of course it could be a translation error but if it is not then warmachines will not be that of a problem to us because I do not think there is any army with warmachines as core troops.
So you just figured: I've read this line, lets skip the example where they make it clear it's different choices of unit, as in army list entries? They make a very clear example mentioning that "For example, an Empire army with its maximum allocation of 3 units of Greatswords could also include a couple of Mortars, a pair of Great cannons and some Pistoliers too".

The_Lemon
04-07-2010, 12:56
That example did not say "a couple of mortars", more like "some mortars", I know that for sure because after saying "a couple of cannons", and that was there, I would have detected something was wrong, to be sure I read that several times btw.

The other example was one about 20 Silver helms and another unit of 10 Silver helms saying that size or equipment did not matter, that makes me think that what they meant was type of troop as in armybook entry, but the rule is written as type of troop as in infantry/cavalry/etc. Weird examples do not change the wording of a rule. RaW takes precedence over RaI where I play.

Falkman
04-07-2010, 13:00
That example did not say "a couple of mortars", more like "some mortars", I know that for sure because after saying "a couple of cannons", and that was there, I would have detected something was wrong, to be sure I read that several times btw.
I quoted the exact line in the rulebook.
They are making sure to explain that by "unit type" they mean actual choices, not Infantry, Cavalry, War machines and so on.

"Remember, this limit applies only to duplicate Special or Rare unit choices of the same type".
It is not a duplicate Special choice if it's not the same choice.
A Cannon is not a duplicate of a Mortar.

The_Lemon
04-07-2010, 13:12
Geez another translation mistake then.
I am thinking seriously about getting an english copy of the new brb instead of the spanish one, our comet does not specify the strength of the hits it does for example, but that would be a bad thing to do to my FLGS owner.

Desert Rain
04-07-2010, 13:12
Oh well, it was just a faint glimmer of false hope.

Falkman
04-07-2010, 13:14
our comet does not specify the strength of the hits it does for example
That is just, wow.

GenerationTerrorist
04-07-2010, 22:26
Hi guys. Reading more and more about the new rules, I am thinking that the days of my Star Dragon Prince are seriously numbered. Instead, I plan to run a Lvl4 (Fire) Archmage in my 28-strong Phoenix Guard plus BSB (Battle Banner) unit for a nice 30-strong unit to anchor the centre of my army and provide a nice bubble for the large block (30-strong) of Spearmen either side of that unit.

I am unsure what to equip the Archmage with though. I was thinking Gem of Sunfire, Foliarths Robe and Guardian Phoenix. The unit itself would have the Banner of Arcane Protection and the Champion would carry the Amulet of Light.

Yes, it is a ridiculous amount of points (1051), but I have faith in them!

Any thoughts?

Desert Rain
04-07-2010, 22:35
Book of Ashur is pretty neat since it gives him +5 to cast and +6 to dispel. It costs quite a lot of points though.

HeroFox
04-07-2010, 22:44
Battle Banner is no longer a good option unless the BSB's on a horse in a unit of Dragon Princes.

xv8
04-07-2010, 22:50
korhil wins in chariot

HeroFox
04-07-2010, 23:26
korhil wins in chariot

Yeah? How you figure?

T4, 4+, 4 wounds, can be picked out in shooting, can be picked out in combat, and is 280 points.

Avatar of the Eldar
05-07-2010, 03:44
Hi guys. Reading more and more about the new rules, I am thinking that the days of my Star Dragon Prince are seriously numbered. Instead, I plan to run a Lvl4 (Fire) Archmage in my 28-strong Phoenix Guard plus BSB (Battle Banner) unit for a nice 30-strong unit to anchor the centre of my army and provide a nice bubble for the large block (30-strong) of Spearmen either side of that unit.

I am unsure what to equip the Archmage with though. I was thinking Gem of Sunfire, Foliarths Robe and Guardian Phoenix. The unit itself would have the Banner of Arcane Protection and the Champion would carry the Amulet of Light.

Yes, it is a ridiculous amount of points (1051), but I have faith in them!

Any thoughts?

Eggs. Basket. Too many.

Your opponents are just going to steer clear of that unit and feed it redirectors and speed bumps, while trying to get you in the flanks. Oh, and check some of the early batreps where template weapons gobble up big chunks from blocks like this..

Give the Archie the 45 pt 4+ ward save talisman from the new BRB. You want as much protection on that investment as possible. Also, Banner of Arcane Protection good if he goes nova on a "loss of control".

Casshole
05-07-2010, 03:59
Also banner of sorcery will help get a leg up in turns where the winds of magic dont blow so strong.

30 PG is pushing it I think, large pie plate will just cause more damage. Maybe 20 of the elite for blocks and maybe 25 for LSG or spears but ill probly still do 20 for spear elves. plus the less PG in a unit the less they will get shot at, since they are not a terribly good target for WMs. Those 10 extra PG can field u a whole unit of archers or a lion chariot. woot.

Im really thinkin that regrowth will be key for the PG. Since we now have to choose our lores before hand, what lore did you plan on for your level 4? Lore of life is good especially since they have that power whirl, though both beasts and metal are attractive as well (a good balance of damage and auggies.)

Trains_Get_Robbed
05-07-2010, 05:48
Herofox: Mentioned the D.P unit with B.B few pages ago. :D

However I think that the B.B is a must now in every game, put him on a horse, or not. It dosen't matter when I put him in a unit of P.G 27-30 P.G with LvL 4 Archmage (Shadow, occasionally Life) with the Robe and Tailsman setup and a P.G champ with D.A.C, because challenges aren't getting through. Unless this unit gets challenged from a Dryad champ or Wight Champ or something lame your P.G shouldn't even be fighting in the first place then you can be semi-worried, but thats what the P.G champ is there for (good for usually 2-3 rounds of combat normally if prolonged -against hero level charcters and some sucky lords, always good against {normal} unit champs :D)

Anyone else find huge LSG units to be a super point-sink, logistically non-viable and a complete waste of points? If the enemy has any shooting at all the unit will be deadererer then road kill. :/

I personally run them with no shields (uncommon? Maybe, but they are T3 with next to no save to begin with and are supposed to be an anvil in my army and are going to die in droves anyways in the turns they are in combat) and then run a unit of archers to put my 2nd lvl 2 caster in (H.E magic with R.B/RoF/ & S.W or Se.S with Beasts with Dragon Spell and +1 T spell) and have a unit of Spears with a killy Noble occasionally to boost killing power of the unit than to have 2 or 1 super huge horde LSG unit.

Thoughts on how you all run your LSG?

EDIT: Am' I missing something? Uhh P.G are the ONLY THING you would ever run in a deathstar/huge unit as they have a 4+ ward save. And if they are shooting at that P.G unit then fine all my other troops advance up the flanks (my S.M love that, as will my low AS spears and LSG). Our Sp. troops wreck, and will continue to wreck. S.M on a flank D.P on a flank good luck to the enemies MSU's as few choices can stand up to those on combat. The only armies I wouldn't do that agaisnt would be a straight up gunline from Empire/Dwarfs.

HeroFox
05-07-2010, 06:58
Herofox: Mentioned the D.P unit with B.B few pages ago.

Yeah and? It's been a good unit since 2007...
8th Ed. changes nothing except for the fact that horse mounted BSBs can get sniped so he must go in a unit of cav now. A BSB on foot should never carry the Battle Banner no matter what. Who in the world would entrust a T3 5+ Elf with a 80 point banner.

CmdrLaw
05-07-2010, 13:25
Thoughts on how you all run your LSG?

My thinking is 2 units of 25 LSG..running in 10x2.5 so you get 25 volley shots and reforming into 5x5 when units get closer.

Sound viable?

Desert Rain
05-07-2010, 13:38
You get 23 shots, not 25. Other than that it sounds like a good formation. You will only get about 2 rounds of shooting though, not that much really.

CmdrLaw
05-07-2010, 13:48
Well 46 shots plus any after reforming for an extra 150 pts ontop of spearman is well worth it now IMO. Plus don't need to fiddle around with protecting the archers. Plus with the flaming standard they can have flaming arrows and spears.

Desert Rain
05-07-2010, 14:20
They are certainly a very good choice. I personally prefer archers+spears since they fit my playing style better than sea guards do.
Having sea guards in your list tends to force you to play more defensively than if you take archers+spears.

xv8
05-07-2010, 23:52
one thing i know is that teclis is a nuke that can kill armys hes my tactical nuke

xv8
05-07-2010, 23:57
Yeah? How you figure?

T4, 4+, 4 wounds, can be picked out in shooting, can be picked out in combat, and is 280 points.

i'm sorry but i like to play for fun i don't care if he dies i want a nice model that is fun to use sometimes

HeroFox
06-07-2010, 00:03
i'm sorry but i like to play for fun i don't care if he dies i want a nice model that is fun to use sometimes

So you like to play for fun and "tactical nuke" your opponent's armies.
;) :confused:

Kloud13
06-07-2010, 00:12
I think he is a young one.

xv8
06-07-2010, 00:20
So you like to play for fun and "tactical nuke" your opponent's armies.
;) :confused:

if i play annoying brats who think there better than everyone i'l nuke there army if i play a friend i'll play for fun and i'm not a young one :eyebrows:

Kloud13
06-07-2010, 00:24
I didn't mean anything bad, or anything like that, but your post just stike me as coming from somebody a little younger.

WarhammerNoob4ever
06-07-2010, 00:25
They are certainly a very good choice. I personally prefer archers+spears since they fit my playing style better than sea guards do.
Having sea guards in your list tends to force you to play more defensively than if you take archers+spears.

Not tryin to tell u that you playstyle is wrong, but something interesting that was brought to my attention, is that if ur taking archers, for a pt more, u can get seaguard, who have spears and light armour. that means 10 pts for a unit of 10 or 20 for a unit of 20. Yes you lose 6" for shooting, but with the increased speed of 8th, i dont think it is that big a deal and bc of the new longer charge distances (on average) its useful for your archers to double as flanking units for your blocks of spearmen....

Im thinkin of a big block of spears, like 25-30, and small 20ish man units of seaguard for shooting and then flanking what hits my spears.....

Plus the extra cost of the seaguard, helps fill that min core requirement, which helps translate your model count from 7th (and 2 core) to the core needed for 8th

xv8
06-07-2010, 00:40
I didn't mean anything bad, or anything like that, but your post just stike me as coming from somebody a little younger.

sorry i can sound very young sometimes when i'm tired

Kloud13
06-07-2010, 01:13
I avoid taking spearelves. Spearelves are only good if they are engaged in Close-Combat to the front, and are still close to full strength. But at a usefull unit strength, they are and expensive unit in an elite army which already has too few units on the table. Any opponent worth their salt will simply not engage the Spears to the front, they will simply manuever around them, and avoid them, or shoot/magic them to death. Out-manuevering is still pretty easy because there is just too much open table to cover with our few units.

Archers I always took more or less to fill my minimum core requirement, and they have killed way more than my spears ever did, as they are generally putting out attacks right from the first turn of the game.

LSG have always been a huge disappointment for me in 7th, but we will see what 8th does for them. I'm thinkin that a cheap BSB with that Armour Piercing Standard might be pretty cool in a unit of LSG.

Trains_Get_Robbed
06-07-2010, 02:11
Herofox: "Who in the world would entrust a T3 5+ Elf with a 80 point banner?"

Uhhh I would? Good luck killing him if I have the unit set up as said in my last post. The only disadvantage that there is is that your A.M can't cast in combat. :/ Otherwise you would never be able to actually challenge the BsB or allocate attacks unless there were less than a rank of models left and or the unit of P.G are fighting something they aren't supposed to be.

The_Lemon
06-07-2010, 09:17
ARGH doublepost, sorry.

The_Lemon
06-07-2010, 09:27
I think the best way to go for our core will be 2x 20 spears with FC and 2x 10 archers, with that you only need to add the war banner and a musician to one of the spear units to be at the core minimun.

Nevertheless I will try LSG with the flaming attacks banner in several games to see how it works. FLaming attacks now reroll failed wounds against units in buildings so it is going to be usefull specially in the watchtower scenario.

Of course it couls also happen that taking more than the bare minimun core will be usefull, our core is expensive (compared with toher army's core) but they are our cheapest troops so we can make bigger blocks with total higher point cost than our smaller elite units so oponents will have to choose what to destroy, that big unit that costs more points or that smaller but cheaper unit.

Kloud13
06-07-2010, 10:12
Just curious, but will "Flaming" Arrows also be able to re-roll to wound when shooting at a unit that is occupying a building?

Quannum
06-07-2010, 10:38
Yes, any flaming attacks made against a garrisoned unit in a building will re-roll to wound. So perch outside that Watchtower with your LSG buffed by Enchanted Blades (+1 to hit on all shooting/CC attacks, and Armour-Piercing) and fire away!

Q

The_Lemon
06-07-2010, 10:46
Yes they do, Every model with flaming attacks will be able to reroll failed to wound rolls when shooting or assaulting a building.

CmdrLaw
06-07-2010, 11:07
Now I normally wouldn't run teclis as I don't belive he would show up in games of 2000-3000 pt size but if I did want to play a massive team game his presence might be justified.

But how to use him now? he is fairly alright in units due to ignoring miscasts but as there are more attacks coming back from rank and file he is tremendously vunerable (T2 and no save).

But he also has to move forward to keep spells in decent range, so just thow him in a small unit thats never meant to get in combat?

The_Lemon
06-07-2010, 11:18
Range should not be a problem, almost all spells can have increased range increasing its difficulty, given that you are going o roll 4 or 5 dice on a single spell to make it IF the added difficulty will not be a problem, so IMO stick him in a unit far back behind your lines to make sure enemy does not reach him.

Desert Rain
06-07-2010, 11:26
Herofox: For core I would take a combination of spears and archers, sort of like the_lemon said.

CmdrLaw
06-07-2010, 11:56
LSG maybe costly, but now they can refrom at will and fire in 2 ranks I really don't see the need to spend additional points on archers. Other than target saturation. And if they are aiming everything at your LSG's then that means all the rest of army can pretty much run amok and do all the hard work.

xv8
06-07-2010, 11:58
Now I normally wouldn't run teclis as I don't belive he would show up in games of 2000-3000 pt size but if I did want to play a massive team game his presence might be justified.

But how to use him now? he is fairly alright in units due to ignoring miscasts but as there are more attacks coming back from rank and file he is tremendously vunerable (T2 and no save).

But he also has to move forward to keep spells in decent range, so just thow him in a small unit thats never meant to get in combat?

i would put teclis in a 10 man unit of phoenix guard with caradryan

Desert Rain
06-07-2010, 12:00
If you are taking sea guards you should be asking yourself if the few rounds of shooting that you will have before CC if worth an extra 4 points per model. You also loose some maneuverability compared to taking spears+archers since you want to keep shooting and therefore can't march.

CmdrLaw
06-07-2010, 12:14
They can't march but they can still move normally and shoot in 2 ranks (so only 20 shots instead of 23), plus you won't be leaving units of archers to be prayed upon by anything natsy. Means your enitre force can move as one (if you don't any RBT's).

Both have their upsides and downside, so I guess it depends on how you want to play.

In fact I would either go Seagaurd if you wanted some shooting or Just stick with spearman..go with 3-4 units of them and ignore the archers entirely.

CmdrLaw
06-07-2010, 14:23
i would put teclis in a 10 man unit of phoenix guard with caradryan

Really? I would have thought a unit of phoenix gaurd would want to get stuck in at the front, especially if caradryan was with them.

Desert Rain
06-07-2010, 14:30
They can't march but they can still move normally and shoot in 2 ranks (so only 20 shots instead of 23), plus you won't be leaving units of archers to be prayed upon by anything natsy. Means your enitre force can move as one (if you don't any RBT's).

Both have their upsides and downside, so I guess it depends on how you want to play.

In fact I would either go Seagaurd if you wanted some shooting or Just stick with spearman..go with 3-4 units of them and ignore the archers entirely.
I've been thinking a bit about skipping archers completely, but decided against it. They are useful for shooting up lighter enemy flanking units, which I dont think will be gone with 8th, and removing a rank from the enemy so that it becomes easier to remove the steadfast rule from them.

Zaszz
06-07-2010, 15:08
My lists will probably all be based on 1 concept and repeating it. Weaken them with range, hit with infantry, support with a hammer. Then I will just scale the concept based on the points I'm playing.

A cheap part of the army to do this would be 20 spears, 10 archers, and a chariot.

An expensive part of the army would be 20 elite infantry, an Archmage, and a Dragon.

I think my 1k list would look something like 2 units of 20 spears, 1 unit of 10 archers, a lvl 2 mage, a BSB, and 2 lion chariots.

Concerns after I have achieved my primary design would be, support magic to soften enemy shooting, and having a good solution to enemy monsters.

Kloud13
06-07-2010, 16:47
Enemy monsters, that's where you need RBT's. Or really strong magic.

HeroFox
06-07-2010, 17:18
Herofox: "Who in the world would entrust a T3 5+ Elf with a 80 point banner?"

Uhhh I would? Good luck killing him if I have the unit set up as said in my last post. The only disadvantage that there is is that your A.M can't cast in combat. :/ Otherwise you would never be able to actually challenge the BsB or allocate attacks unless there were less than a rank of models left and or the unit of P.G are fighting something they aren't supposed to be.

What if you challenge and I retire a Champion, or rather use my Champion to fight someone while others swing into the BSB? Nothing is stopping me from swinging into a T3 5+ 2W Elf once I figure out that you're recycling challenges. It's like fighting undead. Most of us have done it and once figured out they're not too hard to bring down.

CmdrLaw
06-07-2010, 20:32
Have put together my first 8th list:
Lord-
Archmage lvl 4- Book of Ashur - 330 (Lore of Life)
Hero-
Caradryan - 175
Mage lvl 1- Annulian Crystal - 140 (Lore Beasts / Metal)
Noble - BSB, GW, Armour Caledor, Guardian Phoenix - 168
Core -
20x LSG FC, Shield - 285
20x LSG FC, Shield - 285
Special -
16 Phoenix Gaurd FC, AP banner - 315 (BSB, Archmage here)
18 White Lions FC - 300 (Other mage and Caradryan here)

Total 1998

Skyros
06-07-2010, 22:49
I could be wrong, but I thought under 8th ed rules you couldn't send champions to the back ranks for refusing a challenge. It said something about them being able, but not obligated, to accept challenges.

Allonairre
07-07-2010, 04:53
I used to agree with you about Seagaurd Desert Rain, that Archers and Spears would be better.

I am less certain now though, initially i wasn't taking the stand and shoot into account, and that there is a better chance of failed charges. Against spears you may as well declare a charge because you have nothing to lose, seagaurd force your opponent to only charge if he is certain. This reduces the risk of someone declaring and succeeding with a long range, potentially plan wrecking, charges. I don't know if this actually makes the Seagaurd better but it certainly works in their favour.

If you can no longer stand and shoot then that is completely moot and I apologise for my ignorance.

Desert Rain
07-07-2010, 09:03
I haven't tried them in practice yet, so I am just theoryhammering everything ;)
I had forgot about S&S though, thanks for pointing it out.

CmdrLaw
07-07-2010, 09:26
I'm sure lots of people have considered the level 1 mage with the seer staff, lore of beasts and throwing 6 dice at the "Ho Ho Ho now I'm a greater fire dragon spell".

Now avergae for 6 dice and lvl 1 mage is about 22...so just within casting range but not much of a margin.

xv8
07-07-2010, 09:53
Really? I would have thought a unit of phoenix gaurd would want to get stuck in at the front, especially if caradryan was with them.

i would take a large unit up front but id use this small one to defend teclis
and caradryan would be use as a body guard to make sure teclis doesn't need to fight challanges and heros

CmdrLaw
07-07-2010, 10:31
i would take a large unit up front but id use this small one to defend teclis
and caradryan would be use as a body guard to make sure teclis doesn't need to fight challanges and heros

Korhill would probably be better in that position, cheaper on points too.

HeroFox
07-07-2010, 17:25
Right, so after one of the worst dice games I've had for a long time vs. TK, let's talk about TK really quickly.

I think they'll have one of the most unstoppable magic phases in the game if their current rumor on their FAQ is correct. In case anyone didn't know, they will still cast their spells like they do in their 6th Ed book, their Priests are Lv.1 Wizards for dispel and their High Priests are Lv.3. That means all that PD they generate on their turn, goes to their bound items. This also means that they almost always want a low roll on 2d6 for their PD because it means nothing to them. It only really messes with you.

So imagine someone taking 2x TKs, 3x LP and a LP w/ Casket in a 2500 game. That's 4 incantations at d6, 4 at 2d6, the casket and a Jar.

They will always get off their spells, be it a Lv.1 incantation for Urgency that you can't let go, or a 7 on something like Smiting. You are forced to dispel some of these, but if you only have a Lv.4 Wizard in your army, do you really want to risk the 1/3rd chance of failure? You lose concentration on 1 and 2 and you cannot dispel with that wizard for the rest of your turn while TK magic never has a chance to fail.

Anyone else sees similarities of VC 7th Ed?

Skyros
07-07-2010, 20:21
I disapprove of the way they 'fixed' TK magic. Divorcing them from the PD/DD roll that everyone else uses is a bad move. It's going to make them subpar at low points games and absurd at high points games where, as you note, they can throw out 12-15 PD worth of spells every turn, minimum.

HeroFox
07-07-2010, 20:32
I disapprove of the way they 'fixed' TK magic. Divorcing them from the PD/DD roll that everyone else uses is a bad move. It's going to make them subpar at low points games and absurd at high points games where, as you note, they can throw out 12-15 PD worth of spells every turn, minimum.

The list I fought last night was brutal.

Full unit of Archers with that summoning banner, unit of fast cav with Priest, TK with Tomb Guard with reform banner, he had DoE, Collar and 2+ ward vs fire, TK with Chariots, Flail of Skulls, Destiny, 2+ ward helm vs fire, 2x SSC, casket, 2x Tomb Spiders.

It had 2 TK, 3 Priests and a Priest w/ Casket. Absolutely ridiculous to fight against.

Allonairre
07-07-2010, 23:14
Any suggestions for how you might go about fighting it would be good. I get that it is nasty but if you had to play it again what would your army include to help counter it.

I am thinking, just off the top of my head, 19 Phoenix Gaurd for static res, a couple of flanking units of Seagaurd with shields, say 12 in each. Archers and maybe a spearmen block to fill in the core. I would also include a couple of units of Dragon Princes mostly for their immunity to SSC's flaming Skulls. For Heroes I think I would go with Noble on an Eagle with Dragon Armour and Enchanted Shield with either Reaver bow or Star Lance, (Probably the bow). Probably include a L1 or 2 mage with the Annulian Crystal. Oh and a BSB either on foot with PG or mounted to ride with Dragon Princes

As for lords I am really torn between a Prince on an Eagle (instead of the hero so with better equipment and a second low level mage) or an Archmage. Rare just go with 2 Bolt Throwers and 2 Eagles, since that is all we can take.

I see the TK back line here as being key, the chariots are nasty, and the archers are a pain but much of the hurt initially will be put on by the Screaming Skulls, and the Casket. The eagles can put them under pressure in turn 2 (a Prince on an eagle would help here to improve leadership for fear checks as would the mounted BSB if you could get him in range) and the Dragon Princes can help to counter the range of his Chariots. Use our shooting against his Chariots and Fast cavalry.

I know that this is way too simplistic but it sounds like this list is one of the nastiest TKs could come up with and it is always good to know what units should stand up to it.

And yes I would risk rolling 1 dice with the archmage, if you are bothering to use 2 dice then you may as well be using the low level mage. It relies a lot on luck, but still with 2 dice +2 or 3 I should beat his straght 2 dice. You will have to risk your archmage's concentration occasionally, or you will just run out of dice too fast. I take it that tomb kings can't lose concentration and fail to cast.

I figured that TK would work just like other bound spells in that the power comes from the pool of dice now not from the scroll or ring etc, it's just that the spell always goes off. Hopefully this is the case because otherwise TK magic can be completely one sided with no serious draw backs.

HeroFox
07-07-2010, 23:46
I take it that tomb kings can't lose concentration and fail to cast.

Nope. Not in the rumored FAQ.. which scares the hell out of me.


I figured that TK would work just like other bound spells in that the power comes from the pool of dice now not from the scroll or ring etc, it's just that the spell always goes off. Hopefully this is the case because otherwise TK magic can be completely one sided with no serious draw backs.

TK Magic is completely one sided with no draw backs. They actually pray to roll low on their 2d6 to generate magic because they don't care, at all. If they roll double 1s, that means you have 1 DD vs their 8+ incantations. Good luck with that.

Darktan
08-07-2010, 00:37
i'm not sure which worries me more, the non rumourd FAQ where my magic (which is central to everything, can't move across the board without it (ignoring chariots)) is kinda shafted, or in the rumord FAQ where i can drown people in magic and you'd be hard pressed to stop a significant number of spells.

edit -not that it matters too much, the spells are not gamebreaking or unit killing, i think i've been playing dwarves too much (primary opponent, loves runesmiths) i barely get more than a few spells out per game in 6-7th, getting multiple incantations out would be an excellent change, moving my skeletons more than 4" a turn towards people, i'd get more games in. (also, all of the spells can only be cast sucessfully once on each unit, getting all my spells off, wouldn't help in the slightest)

apoligies if this has been said before, but how do you think HE chariots with fare?


side note, i'd still want a good 2D6 dice roll for two reasons, one, because i'm interested in getting rid of all those powerful RiP spells, two, because i wouldn't want to be unsportsmanlike. (the occasional low roll would just be part of the game, but a series of low rolls i'd just re-roll (assuming opponents permission) otherwise it just wouldn't be cricket.

Von Wibble
08-07-2010, 18:44
Also a tomb king player might want a high roll if he takes a couple of bound spell items, or stick a wizard's hat on his tomb king. These would make use of all those power dice, on top of said incantations. Since it is rumoured TK come out possibly as early as October I think the magic problem will thankfully be short term.

Darktan - I think HE chariots will be great options. Tiranoc chariots used to take up valuable slots (even with HE extra specials) but now that its % based their low price makes them shine. I will be taking at least 2 chariots in any game I use HE. They are excellent in the support charge, with a much smaller footprint and points cost compared to cavalry. I find the lion chariot harder to justify as its only a little cheaper than 5 dragon princes otoh.

tiekwando
08-07-2010, 21:29
sorry to be slightly off topic, but i dont know much about tomb kings, I have only played against O&G and Lizardmen so far.

Does anyone really think that Spearelves will be worth it now a days. I just dont think they can kill enough to justify their points now that things can step up and kill them (especially since now 2 rows attack). You need to take 20 at a minimum and 25 to be effective after the first round of combat and need to kill about 2-1 ratio against most cheap core. I just dont think they can.

This also goes for sea guard, but fortunately 25 can also shoot 19 shots, possibly flaming, which i think is going to be my core choice.

HeroFox
08-07-2010, 22:11
Spear Elves are very much worth it.

The only thing that's questionably NOT worth it right now is LSG. 13 points a piece is very, very expensive for a T3 5+ Elf. So far, I haven't been really impressed on their dual bow/spear nature.. I've only been impressed with their "Spear" nature and their ability to hold lines.

If that's the case, then Spears would definitely be better for that points wise.

Trains_Get_Robbed
08-07-2010, 23:33
H.F: "What if you challenge and I retire a Champion, or rather use my Champion to fight someone while others swing into the BSB? Nothing is stopping me from swinging into a T3 5+ 2W Elf once I figure out that you're recycling challenges. It's like fighting undead. Most of us have done it and once figured out they're not too hard to bring down."

How can normal infantry pick out heroes in combat to allocate their wounds against? Besides its moot point as I run mine on a horse anyway.

I have found it more point cost efficient for have included a cheap Prince with the White Sword, D.A.C, and T.O.L in the unit as opposed to the A.M, moved the A.M elsewhere.

Regarding T.K your opponet didn't take any Tomb Scorpions I was under the impression that they were the best combat unit T.K had?

HeroFox
08-07-2010, 23:35
No, he took 2x Tomb Scorpions and 2x SSCs. It was pretty hairy.

On the other topic from like ages back, aren't you afraid of getting cannoballed in the face if you're running a BSB on horse in a unit of infantry?

Desert Rain
08-07-2010, 23:59
I'm working on version two of my 8th edition list at the moment, and I have a couple of questions mostly for those of you that have played some games with the new rules.
Are Phoenix Guards viable in a unit of 14 with a character?
How many White Lions seems to be enough in a unit? 18, 20, 24?

HeroFox
09-07-2010, 00:34
14 is a little skinny.
Best # of White Lions I've noticed so far are 20 (5x4) or 24 (6x4).

Desert Rain
09-07-2010, 00:44
Thanks, the problem with the PGs is that I only have 14 models that might represent them. I use maiden guard models since I don't own any real PG ones.

tiekwando
09-07-2010, 01:14
@Hero- Wow that is really interesting, that is the exact opposite of my experience. LSG with flaming arrows and spears has allowed me to kill off regenerating units and threaten from range.

While my spears (bar magic) have been woefully underperforming, usually loosing after the first round against just about everything they have been put to face. They do hold for a round though which I guess is a good thing.

However with any of the buff spells (especially the +1s/+1t) they become much much better.

Also lore of metal +1 to hit/ap does that work for bows, cause I used it the other day on the lsg and 19 bs5 flaming s3 ap arrows actually can do a bit of damage, even against dwarves! Plus if they charge you then you also get 20 asf, re-rollable ws4 +1 to hit s3 flaming spear attacks (wow that is a lot of special rules lol).

I used 15 PG as a nice little unit and it did ok. Especially if you have the lore of life to resurrect d3/d6+1 of them.

Biggest thing I have noticed over the 4 games is that magic is so necessary for our elves. Buffs and hexes make our life so much easier, but it is also something you cant count on.

WarhammerNoob4ever
09-07-2010, 02:24
The only thing that's questionably NOT worth it right now is LSG. 13 points a piece is very, very expensive for a T3 5+ Elf. So far, I haven't been really impressed on their dual bow/spear nature..

Not tryin to start something w u Hero, but if u look at LSG as 1 pt more (without shield) archers w spears and LA, they actually arent that bad (yes i kno 6" less shooting)

HeroFox
09-07-2010, 02:30
@Hero- Wow that is really interesting, that is the exact opposite of my experience. LSG with flaming arrows and spears has allowed me to kill off regenerating units and threaten from range.

I mean yeah, they threaten, but I'm not sure on their point cost worth.

I mean, you can fit in 2 giant blocks of 32x Spearmen with FC in a 25% core choice for 2500 points. You compare that to 1 block of 30 LSG w/ Eternal Flame with a smaller block of 20 Spears.

I guess it depends on the rest of your army composition too. If you have 2x RBT and 2x Eagles, LSG might add more shooting and compound your army's range advantage. My army has more or less all blocks of infantry with a unit of supporting knights.

No RBTs for me at all.

Trains_Get_Robbed
09-07-2010, 02:48
HF: "On the other topic from like ages back, aren't you afraid of getting cannoballed in the face if you're running a BSB on horse in a unit of infantry?"

He's got a +4 LO,S if the army I' m playing against is using cannons. :D Then I can save any wounds with the +4 Ward from the P.G, I can't see why a Empire or Dwarf would want to waste cannon shots at the unit when the chance of doing zero damage is decently possible.

However, I used a Noble on an G.E to hunt warmachines last game (O&G) and it was effective to say the least. I put him out of LOS on an extreme flank and by turn 2 it either shoot the Eagle to death or get charged. He was kitted to kill a bit and survive with G.P, S.O.M, and E.S and D.A so he is ok or instead of the S.O.M you can give him a Lance and a G.W and choose between the 2 and use the extra points for other items.

The only thing I find a problem with so far with the elves in 8th ed. (besides T3 :rolleyes:) is the lack of unit choice. S.M aren't really optimal which limits even more and if you don't take a A.M as H.E your utterly insane. Thus, your opponet will know some of your list before hand.

tiekwando
09-07-2010, 03:26
Well for your units (2x32) I can take 25 Seaguard with FC Flame banner and 20 Seaguard with FC for +9 points.

That allows me to shoot at least 35 shots. with 2-3 turns of shooting (depending on who goes first). And then if I reform I can get 43 shots without too much difficulty for 2 turns. That, on average, gives me 12 (at minimum) - 22 (max assuming 3 rounds of shooting 2 @ long w/43 shots and 1 round @ short w/35 shots). Which makes our units pretty equal against each other. As you would be in combat with me with anywhere from 52-42 spearmen against my 45.

Against other units the spearelves can absorb more attacks. While I can shoot flaming arrows at regen opponents. You will be stubborn for longer against opponents. I might be able to stand and shoot.

I loose effectiveness almost immediately from casualties, you can take a few before loosing any effectiveness.

Really I think it actually works out so that they are pretty similar, and as you said probably depends on if you need the extra shooting, or if you want to be running forward every turn.

Also @ trains, do you need a noble to be effective or can a great eagle do well enough on its own with its high I and a stomp attack as well as no +1 for outnumbering?

HeroFox
09-07-2010, 03:36
He's got a +4 LO,S

I don't think he does :( LOS! only applies to units of the same type last I checked. I don't have my book.


Well for your units (2x32) I can take 25 Seaguard with FC Flame banner and 20 Seaguard with FC for +9 points.

Yeah, that's fine if you want to do a shooty list.. but 25 and 20 are too slim to hold anything I think.

tiekwando
09-07-2010, 03:52
@ Hero, yeah they are thats why I like PG! They got a big boost in the new rules. Also I have tried small SM units which have had varying degrees of success. Unfortunately I dont have any WL models, otherwise I think they would be another great (probably much better against just about everything except t3 5+ save units and worse)

Also what are peoples opinions on magic. For now I have tried life, metal and beasts (played against friends who were eager to see the new magic too so let me switch :)). I want to try death and shadow next.

Trains_Get_Robbed
09-07-2010, 04:02
You get a LO,S but the save gets smaller as the unit types changes. ie a demon prince for example would only get a 5+ save due to his base size. Cav only get a +4 save. Etc. . .

LSG did well last game for me, but horrible the first game I played with them. Its hit or miss to me. I personally will use as a missile deterent, anti fast-cav/RBT hunters, and also medium Cav killers or 5+ AS troops. They do well on things that aren't armored, but the high volume of shots the pump out is going to cause a wound eventually, even if armored -use only in a tight squezze. Thus ifyou stick them near a unit of P.G let P.G be the anvil they perform wonderfully being the rank negators they were meant to be and generating combat rez.

A thoughts after my last game:

*I' am suprised I' m not concerned about the unit strength not breaking ranks anymore. I thought I was going to be but, after last game in which I generated 26 combat rez (I only rolled a 3 for the B.Banner :)) with only a unit of 20 P.G and a chariot I think we'll do fine. Using synergeistic charging and flee moves more often is going to be a must however. Killing Skulltaker and crumbling a Demon Prince General along with the remaining 7 guys made me happy (getting the P.G block into something other than you enemies best troop is definitly needs to be justified now) as there were 25 when they got charged -there were 40 to start the game.

Not to mention I didn't take a single wound back from anything in his unit! :D Lore of Shadows helps very much when your opponet is S3 like you would be and your S9 with every in the unit. ;) Magic helps very much in this ed. pick a spell of the ones your A.M knows and wait to cast that last so it goes off. The enemy never has enough dispell dice ot dispell everything. Just make sure everything goes off if you only have one mage though.

I think magic is a must on our T 3 S3 troops, is there anyone that hasn't ran an A.M in a game and done well?

HeroFox
09-07-2010, 09:05
Taken from the FAQ:


Q. The Speed of Asuryan special rule states that “all High Elves
have the special rule Always Strike First, regardless of the weapon
they are wielding.” How does this interact with a great weapons
Always Strike Last? (p43)
A. The army book will take precedence in this situation. For
example, a Sword Master would strike first with his great
weapon. If his Initiative value is equal to or higher than his
opponent’s, he will also benefit from a re-roll to hit.

I will have a full review of the FAQ up on my blog in a second!

CmdrLaw
09-07-2010, 09:32
I think the way to look at LSG now is that if you want some shooting then take LSG, they may be alot more expensive than regular spearmen but aren't that much more than archers.

Seeing as your archers are usually sheilded the range loss isn't as noticeable as the LSG can be as far forward as you like.

Also the magic your going with makes a difference, LSG benefit more from buffs due to their dual role, whereas spearman would likely work better with more damaging/debuff lores.

Allonairre
09-07-2010, 10:11
Korhil really got alot better, 4 ASF killing blow attacks that reroll to hit, he has become a very competitive combat noble, albeit a bit of a glass cannon.

BTW
I have been wondering about nominating attacks, I take it that this is still possible in exactly the same way as it was in 7th, so RnF can still drop our heroes esp as they will normally get to attack us back.

HeroFox
09-07-2010, 10:12
No Elite Army rule. :cries:

Take it and like it I suppose. Our army got buffed for the most part.


BTW
I have been wondering about nominating attacks, I take it that this is still possible in exactly the same way as it was in 7th, so RnF can still drop our heroes esp as they will normally get to attack us back.

Put Korhil on the edge of a unit to reduce the amount of attacks he'll take and use him as a challenge monster.

Desert Rain
09-07-2010, 10:38
Nice to finally have the faq, and they even answered the old question of whether our magical bows gave magical attacks or not.

Vsurma
09-07-2010, 11:16
I'm sure lots of people have considered the level 1 mage with the seer staff, lore of beasts and throwing 6 dice at the "Ho Ho Ho now I'm a greater fire dragon spell".

Now avergae for 6 dice and lvl 1 mage is about 22...so just within casting range but not much of a margin.

Indeed, this means the spell will work about 60% of the time.

Your entire games magic goes to attempting this spell. If your not a big fan of magic otherwise then you could do it, but you do give up your entire phase.

Remember the opponent is likely to have a scroll. to get rid of 1 dragon...which is a problem since your caster has to be IN combat when he casts, otherwise the opponent can easily dispel the spell in his phase.

Vsurma
09-07-2010, 11:32
Right, so after one of the worst dice games I've had for a long time vs. TK, let's talk about TK really quickly.

I think they'll have one of the most unstoppable magic phases in the game if their current rumor on their FAQ is correct. In case anyone didn't know, they will still cast their spells like they do in their 6th Ed book, their Priests are Lv.1 Wizards for dispel and their High Priests are Lv.3. That means all that PD they generate on their turn, goes to their bound items. This also means that they almost always want a low roll on 2d6 for their PD because it means nothing to them. It only really messes with you.

So imagine someone taking 2x TKs, 3x LP and a LP w/ Casket in a 2500 game. That's 4 incantations at d6, 4 at 2d6, the casket and a Jar.

They will always get off their spells, be it a Lv.1 incantation for Urgency that you can't let go, or a 7 on something like Smiting. You are forced to dispel some of these, but if you only have a Lv.4 Wizard in your army, do you really want to risk the 1/3rd chance of failure? You lose concentration on 1 and 2 and you cannot dispel with that wizard for the rest of your turn while TK magic never has a chance to fail.

Anyone else sees similarities of VC 7th Ed?

To summarize, your example states that a single lv4 wizard will have trouble dispelling the spells of 6 casters? Um.....yea how odd...

On a similar note, your single unit of rnf will have trouble against 6 of the enemies, also dragons die when combo charged by 6 other dragons.

Damn that is troublesome :)

Ok so tomb kings can get many spells a turn, so can many other armies. Tomb kings tend to do it on lower values though they always work. Fair trade (they are supposed to be fairly magical as an army)

My 2 slanns (cost less than all the above mentioned heroes) can cast 8-9 spells a turn, average casting value 11.

Tomb kings can get 6-7 spells a turn, casting values range from 1-12, 3.4 and 7 as average.

Doesn't seem too bad.
A lv2 will have no trouble dispelling the bounds of a lv1 enemy mage.

Basically every magic phase will result in a spell or 2 going through. I is the casters choice normally to decide if they want 1 specific, possibly high casting value spell to go through, or multiple smaller ones.

Tome Kings merely miss out on this choice, as all their spells are "smaller" and lower casting value spells.

Also don't you NEED pool dice to cast bound spells these days! so if you roll low, 1,1 or 1,2 then you don't get 6 spells.

With a lv4 and a lv2 (or 2 lv4 mages) you can dispel most enemy casts on 1 dice. Some will go through of course but most will be dispelled. Seems fairly equal to how other armies magic phases will go. I don't see them having a huge advantage.

Though they do have good spells, with movement spells disappearing from the main rulebook TK have an advantage in this area.

Desert Rain
09-07-2010, 13:28
They have added the "elite army" rule to the FAQ now :)

Pravus
09-07-2010, 13:56
Are they FAq'ing the FAQ's already? Apparently they were all edited last tomorrow ;)

Desert Rain
09-07-2010, 14:14
GW is altering time and editing something that was released tomorrow:eek:

Desert Rain
09-07-2010, 15:15
There is a new, very short, 8th edition tactica on the GW site. It actually includes some good advice!!

Lord Shadowheart
09-07-2010, 16:01
D3 wounds vs everything on Caradryan, I'm pleased, he's probably my favourite high elf character :)

Maarten K
09-07-2010, 16:28
There is a new, very short, 8th edition tactica on the GW site. It actually includes some good advice!!

You mean the part were they claim that a high elf spearmen unit can fight a (empire/orc/skaven) horde and will emerge unscathed because they have so many attacks (conviniently forgetting about the attacks back)?;):eyebrows:

Desert Rain
09-07-2010, 17:24
You mean the part were they claim that a high elf spearmen unit can fight a (empire/orc/skaven) horde and will emerge unscathed because they have so many attacks (conviniently forgetting about the attacks back)?;):eyebrows:
Not really that part;)
But the advice that you shouldn't overspend on huge elite units and characters is a good one. As is the synergy between the army and lore of life. It is pretty basic stuff, but it could be useful for a beginner.

HeroFox
09-07-2010, 19:32
To summarize, your example states that a single lv4 wizard will have trouble dispelling the spells of 6 casters? Um.....yea how odd...

On a similar note, your single unit of rnf will have trouble against 6 of the enemies, also dragons die when combo charged by 6 other dragons.

Damn that is troublesome :)

Yeah I don't think you know how TK magic works in relation to the new rules.

Read this thing I wrote in another thread:


Follow me here:
1. They scale very well because their magic comes from their heroes and lords. Every single one of them can cast. That means at 3k points and magic is still capped at 6 max dispel dice, they can still have more incantations.

2. Their spells alway goes off in an edition where the dispel dice we have to repel them is random. Some turns, I will have 4 dd other time he might roll poorly on his turn for pd and I have one dd. If he has 9 incantations and you only have one dd an a scroll, what does this say? Unlike 7th Ed where you generate the same amount of dd per turn and have multiple scrolls, 8th Ed weaken gives you random dd and 1 scroll. Let this sink in for a sec.

3. Sec is over. Tk magic never has a chance to fail. Your dispel does. A lv4 with +4 to dispel can basically stop any incantation on d6 but he has a 1/3 chance to fail because he will roll a 1 and 2 and will STOP dispelling for the rest of the round. Failable wizards when Tk never fails.

4. Other races forfeit pd to dispel RIP spells and cast bound magic instead of normal spells. tk does not. The only thing they use those dice on are to dispel RIP and cast bound items. They lose NONE of their magic potential.

In short, your Slanns have the chance to fail. TK does not fail. Ever.

Enjoy eating 4-5 incantations every turn :)

The_Lemon
09-07-2010, 22:43
Only way to fight any of those is take Teclis (he can still choose the lore at the start of the battle) and get shadow or beasts and do a pendulum or the bolt thrower with s10 in those lores.

Now if my oponent has 2 tanks I better be good rolling because without good luck any enemy that knows to move forward his miniatures will decimate my units.

Skyros
09-07-2010, 22:46
Elves are at a bit of a loss against the steam tank because, unlike just about everyone else, they can't tarpit it with a big unit of cheap steadfast infantry, because HE infantry is silly overpriced. DE got all the deals ><

You basically have to use magic or be screwed (but this is the case with HE when facing virtually any army in 8e, it seems to me. They took a major beating :( )

You can use the pendulum on it. It will fail it's I test, then take the S10 multi wound hit. Or occams mind razor spearmen - note that you STILL autohit the ST even though it is a chariot - special rule for the ST. You're still hitting only on 6's, but he gets no armor save, so if even a couple get through, the ST is neutralized. There's the lore of beasts amber spear which is another powerful hit. Or just run a mage up next to him and miscast and hope for the S10 pieplate result :p Or try a large unit of LST with AP banner and flames of rhuin: you are S4 ap, so only 3+ armor save for the ST, and you wound on 5's and 6's. One or two rounds of that shooting should leave a single ST more or less dead in the water.

Really, the ST is vulnerable to anything that is high S and doesn't allow AS - same as before. The other T10 units will also be troublesome - they can all get a 4+ ward save and some of them can get a good armor save too (well, just anvil, mostly).

I was surprised that lore of metal didn't work on it as well, then I realized that is because a single casting of the base spell would be guaranteed to take the steamtank out of the game, which is hardly balanced.

Falkman
09-07-2010, 22:53
Or try a large unit of LST with AP banner and flames of rhuin: you are S4 ap
Flaming sword of Rhuin gives you +1 to your wound rolls, it doesn't increase your strength.

Skyros
09-07-2010, 23:02
Oops. I had it sort of combined with the beasts base spell.

Still, doubling the # of wounds you cause is useful.

But I don't see any viable way for elves to deal with T10 guys aside from magic :(

The_Lemon
09-07-2010, 23:03
Oh just realized, Teclis is the answer even in melee, he wounds on 2+ and allows no armor saves, it will take 10 combat rounds to kill it while it is grinding your expensive elves though.

Desert Rain
09-07-2010, 23:04
It's just ridiculous, seriously how are we really supposed to deal with one remotely reliably? I don't think the pendulum spell works against it as I believe that it always succeeds any characteristics tests except Ld tests. I could be wrong though, and hopefully I am.

About Teclis, is there some sort of spell that increase his attacks and still lets him use his sword?

The_Lemon
09-07-2010, 23:05
Stanks autofails initiative tests, those are the only kind of tests that fails though, the rest he autopass them.

Darktan
09-07-2010, 23:07
theres a spell in lore of beasts i think that gives +3 S and +3 attacks

Skyros
09-07-2010, 23:08
It's just ridiculous, seriously how are we really supposed to deal with one remotely reliably? I don't think the pendulum spell works against it as I believe that it always succeeds any characteristics tests except Ld tests. I could be wrong though, and hopefully I am.

About Teclis, is there some sort of spell that increase his attacks and still lets him use his sword?

Doesn't one of the beast spells give you +3 attacks?

And you only need to wound the ST a couple times to make it useless. then it can't generate steam points and hurt you.

Having to kill all 10 wounds of it is a royal pain and poor design - basically past a couple wounds the steam tank just sits there like a useless brick because killing it is of no value and takes too much time.

It should be 5W and the steam point generation adjusted to match.

Desert Rain
09-07-2010, 23:20
Stanks autofails initiative tests, those are the only kind of tests that fails though, the rest he autopass them.
Great! Mindrazor and Pendulum are both answers to it then.

Sarapham
10-07-2010, 00:07
Well at least everything in the army can wound it now, so you always have a chance to hurt it and even some spearmen could cause some 6s and 1s to make a dent in it at least.

Crotchduster
10-07-2010, 00:26
Maybe this kind of Caledorian "Warrior Prince" build along with his trusted regiment of Dragon Princes can seriously damage the infernal machination that is the STANK other than strictly casting powerful spells like the Mindrazor around which can always be dispelled or miscast...

Behold: Prince Caradnir Crotchduster VII of Caledor, The Scourge of STANK!

High Elf Prince -286pts
+Vambraces of Defence
+Foe Bane
+Potion of Strength
+Dragon Prince Equipment

He rides with a regiment of 5-6 DP's holding the Razor Standard of Armour Piercing Doom. It can be a small general purpose unit which specializes in hunting similar big fat meanies like the STANK. It's mobile and it can intercept such things when you need them to...

Gulping the potion when charging is to allow the Elf to effectively reduce the 1+ save with a -5 modifier from S7 AP to a mere 6+ save. He wounds on 2+ with the Foe Bane with 4 attacks which would put 4 wounds on the thing first turn unless you're really s**t out of luck with the dice that day. Even the AP'ing DP's might get lucky on rolling a 6 to wound with a -3 modifier to that 1+ save heap of metal while charging.

In the following turns, well... He's still wounding on 2+ but the thing now has a 3+ AS. Casting an easy to cast (7+) PLAGUE OF RUST on it might help if the the thing is not immune. A cheap spell becomes at least more reliable and equally effective in putting the STANK out of commision in this case. It's bound to fail a 3+ save to get reduced to 5 wounds next turn anyway though, still, the PoR is nice to have around a STANK if you've got the Foe Bane on your side.

A Sword of Hoeth is fine too, I guess. But that thing is way too expensive for what it does while remaining quite the situational boon as it is...

Trains_Get_Robbed
10-07-2010, 03:51
I don't see how the Stank is going to be impossible to SLOW DOWN to the point where it DOES LITTLE TO NO DAMAGE after you each have had one or two turns. We can take as many RBT's as we want no?

Uh ok so I take a reasonable amount 3? lets say and I also have a unit of 28 (I run them only 6 wide though). So in 2 turns you wil be getting 40 LSG shots and 36 RBT shots at the Stank. LSG would be hitting on 4s for long range maybe 3 if within 12 in and the RBT would be hitting on 3/4s depending on who go first turn.

You can get 1 wound a turn on avg from the RBTs, and from the Seaguard you could get one wound a turn. Thus its down to 6 wounds at which point you can leave it be, where it will do very little the rest of the game or which it will most likley hurt itself.

This also assuming you don't have a LvL 1/2 H.E that casts Curse of Arrow Attraction at it (I run mine with R.B so thats 6 more shots) and you get to reroll hits against it.

*Note that this is just 2 turns of shooting you can shoot more at it. I also take archers so I would have a bit more shooting at it
The key I think with the Stank is to not kill it but damage it enough so that it can't do you anymore harm or that it harms yourself.

*Double note my math is probably wrong, but its close enough. You really only need to do 3-4 wounds before generating steam points is dangerous.

Signius
10-07-2010, 04:56
*Double note my math is probably wrong, but its close enough. You really only need to do 3-4 wounds before generating steam points is dangerous.

Its actually significantly lower than your estimates. With that setup we end up with slightly less than 2 wounds across 2 shooting phases. And note that we have also spent significantly more that 600 points on this setup, all directed at the steam tank.

First LSG round
20x(1/2)x(1/6)x(1/6)=.278

Second LSG Round (were being generous here, within 12 inches)
20x(2/3)x(1/6)x(1/6)=.37

Both RBT rounds:
36x(2/3)x(1/6)x(1/3)=1.333

All that comes in to just under 2 wounds, and that is an extensive amount of focused shooting across two rounds.

I'm basically thinking we are going to have to rely on Lore of Shadows Teclis or Book of Hoeth Archmage to deal with steam tanks. Though CD's setup does look like it can reliably bring the stank down to around 6 wounds in one round of combat. The only issue is getting that super expensive unit out of combat with the decrepit steam tank.

Thruster
10-07-2010, 08:32
If I'm not wrong, there is a part in Stank description that says "Immune to Magic - Magic only works if there is Strength value"

So magic with In testing and no Strength value is useless against the Stank.

Brady
10-07-2010, 11:01
Does the STANK have a ward save or regen? If not then just suicide run caradryan into it, if your lucky you may do a wound to the tank in combat. Then just wait for caradryan to die and hit the tank with D6 wounds with no save. If caradryan doesnt die becuase of his ward then you are holding up the tank in combat :)

Crotchduster
10-07-2010, 11:02
Though CD's setup does look like it can reliably bring the stank down to around 6 wounds in one round of combat. The only issue is getting that super expensive unit out of combat with the decrepit steam tank.

Well, yeah, I gave the most superior but also a quite expensive version of the build as an example but a similar yet a lot cheaper version can also wreck the STANK almost as effectively causing 3-4 wounds on it which should be enough.

Now that the slots are a thing of the past, I would easily sacrifice a cheap 150 Noble version of the build on a horse or a 190 on an eagle to take out a 300pts T10 W10 STANK from the Steampunk Hell without wasting precious magic for it. Empire can also be pretty badass in magic defence if its player wishes so anyway.

It's too bad that you lose the AP Banner on a lone monster hunter hero though. It is also utterly ridiculous that you can't take a magic banner for a cheaper shield-less Silver Helms unit. I mean, why the heck are they Special troops anyway considering how crappy they are as one?

Probably because Silver Helms sold like cupcakes for the 6th edition one trick pony SH Bus armies and later in 7th got nerfed to the moon(Morrslieb) as a result.

P.S.

Monster hunter heroes and maybe even lords are usually worth it if they can reliably take out the big baddies wherever and whenever you want to. How many of you didn't keep the now obsolete chariot-buster Starlance noble around in 7th ed, eh?

wamphyri101
10-07-2010, 11:59
Second level of Amber spear is Str10 doing d6 wounds

SeaSwift
10-07-2010, 21:34
Its actually significantly lower than your estimates. With that setup we end up with slightly less than 2 wounds across 2 shooting phases. And note that we have also spent significantly more that 600 points on this setup, all directed at the steam tank.

First LSG round
20x(1/2)x(1/6)x(1/6)=.278

Second LSG Round (were being generous here, within 12 inches)
20x(2/3)x(1/6)x(1/6)=.37

Both RBT rounds:
36x(2/3)x(1/6)x(1/3)=1.333

All that comes in to just under 2 wounds, and that is an extensive amount of focused shooting across two rounds.

I'm basically thinking we are going to have to rely on Lore of Shadows Teclis or Book of Hoeth Archmage to deal with steam tanks. Though CD's setup does look like it can reliably bring the stank down to around 6 wounds in one round of combat. The only issue is getting that super expensive unit out of combat with the decrepit steam tank.

Actually, each RBT only shoots out 6 shots, so that's 'only' 24 shots over 2 turns, equalling only 0.888(...) wounds. And that is assuming the STank is within 24"...

I agree with Brady - assuming you can tailor your list, get Caradryan to sui-charge it. I wouldn't recommend Carie for an all-comers list, though.

Desert Rain
10-07-2010, 21:48
Fun little thing that I noticed while reading through the book is that if you have the Seerstaff you must chose your spells while you writ the list, not before the battle starts.

Falkman
10-07-2010, 22:09
Yeah, it limits the use of it somewhat I guess.
Good on a lvl 4 with life though, but I'd rather have the Staff of Solidity on any mage.

Von Wibble
10-07-2010, 22:14
Well, for a level 4 with life you effectively have a better version of staff of solidity with that ignore miscasts on 2+ spell.

But I'd rather have the silver wand if I want better choice of spells, or the annulian crystal if I want some decent defense etc. I never really used the seerstaff in the first place so doubt I will be now.

Desert Rain
10-07-2010, 22:17
Same here, Staff of Solidity is very useful nowadays. I'll probably combine it with Talisman of whatsitsname that gives you a 4+ ward save from the BRB. Wouldn't want my Archmage to kill herself to often.
I'd rather put the Crystal on a L.1 or L.2 mage so that the AM can pick up some other items.

Von Wibble
10-07-2010, 22:19
Yes, I think a 4+ ward on any level 4 is pretty much compulsory now. With so many more attacks able to target him, and miscast results causing potentially more wounds, the protection is needed.

Signius
10-07-2010, 22:32
Actually, each RBT only shoots out 6 shots, so that's 'only' 24 shots over 2 turns, equalling only 0.888(...) wounds. And that is assuming the STank is within 24"...

I agree with Brady - assuming you can tailor your list, get Caradryan to sui-charge it. I wouldn't recommend Carie for an all-comers list, though.

There were three RBTs in that scenario, hence the 36 shots, and the over 600 points cost for the RBT's and LSG together.

I don't really trust the Caradryan method. Even including his D3 wounds, he averages .33 wounds from his attacks (basically its almost always going to be 0, but when it does go through it is fairly good, bringing the expected wounds up a bit). The D6 on death does have an expected 3.5, but for suiciding a 175 point model I would want a better (and less random) outcome.

Falkman
10-07-2010, 22:32
Well, for a level 4 with life you effectively have a better version of staff of solidity with that ignore miscasts on 2+ spell.
Nice to have insurance, plus, if I get a nice chance to cast Dwellers below before I've had a chance to Throne up I want to be able to chuck 6 dice at it and not fear a miscast. Had a game today where my opponent had put his Slann in a Saurus unit and I was within range to cast Dwellers below, but I had only rolled up a total of 6 dice. So I was glad I had the Staff of Solidity since that meant I could just cast Dwellers and hope for IF (which I got, sadly his Slann passed the test).


Same here, Staff of Solidity is very useful nowadays. I'll probably combine it with Talisman of whatsitsname that gives you a 4+ ward save from the BRB. Wouldn't want my Archmage to kill herself to often.
Yeah that's the setup I run mine with as well, also means that if she should get into combat (I may want to charge something that suddenly comes up and don't have time to waste a turn moving her out of her unit) she's still pretty safe.

HeroFox
11-07-2010, 02:55
If your Lv.4 is in combat somehow.. you probably misplayed.

Though I do realize accidents do happen.. and Fol's Robe is much better than any Ward save. Your baby sitting Korhil or Caradryan should be challenging or kill anything with a magical weapon anyway.

Kloud13
11-07-2010, 06:49
A prince with the "Foe Bane" sword and a potion of strength would do a number on the Steam Tank. just a thought. (need the potion for the armour save modifier.)

An Archmage with the Book of Hoeth and Lore of Life will be a force to reckon with. In fact this would be a fantastic backbone for any HE army. I think.

Desert Rain
11-07-2010, 07:38
If your Lv.4 is in combat somehow.. you probably misplayed.

Though I do realize accidents do happen.. and Fol's Robe is much better than any Ward save. Your baby sitting Korhil or Caradryan should be challenging or kill anything with a magical weapon anyway.
The ward save isn't just against close combat attacks. It also protects you from miscasts, which the robe doesn't.

Von Wibble
11-07-2010, 18:13
A prince with the "Foe Bane" sword and a potion of strength would do a number on the Steam Tank. just a thought. (need the potion for the armour save modifier.)



Whilst this is true, the combo is in general a negative synergy and against anything not a steam tank its wasted points.

Allonairre
11-07-2010, 23:04
I cannot find any reference to what "paired weapon" actually means, I assume it means an extra attack through an additional combat weapon. I just cannot find it specifically, if anyone could give me a page reference from the BRB that would be great.

Falkman
11-07-2010, 23:26
It's on the same page as the common magic weapons (page 501).

Hannimar
11-07-2010, 23:37
If your Lv.4 is in combat somehow.. you probably misplayed.


Hey, sometimes it can be pretty nasty! My archmage (Folariath's Robe, Jewel of the Dusk) in my previous game flank charged a unit of Black Guard fighting my Pheonix Guard to burn the hell out of them with the Cascading Fire Cloak. :). The Robe also proved to be really nice as my opponent wasted a full shot of 20 repeater crossbowmen at the mage.

Remember, a good Black Guard is a roasted Black Guard.

Allonairre
11-07-2010, 23:40
Thanks Falkman

Davemaddocks
12-07-2010, 00:35
Teclis is now godlike.

Ok you have a unit of 20 seagaurd in combat with lets say 20 Khornate Warrios with extra hand weapons.

lets face it were getting pwned.

Up pops teclis and slaps Okkams Mindrazor on the seagaurd unit and The enfeenling foe on the warriors.

Now the elves are getting 21 ASF, attacks re rolling hits at str 8. avgs says 12 warriors will die

so they get 23 str 2ish attacks back, avg is 4 elves die elveswin by 10!! how the hell did that happen :-)


Teclis ignores the effects of the 1st miscast so can throw 5/6 dice at any spell if he hasnt already miscast and almoast gaurantee he gets it off
added to the fact he adds to your dispell pool adds +5 to dispell attempts carries a 2nd dispell scroll for your army (remember scrolls are now unique like evrythin else)
give a unit the banner of sorc and youll be on 10+ power dice almoast every phase.


Magic is sorted now on to those pesky core units we now have to spend loads on