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CmdrLaw
12-07-2010, 01:36
Ahhh the choices....3000 pts you have 750 points on Lords.
Now the lvl 4 archmage is a must, but for fun and looking awesome I am tempted by Prince on a dragon (even though they are now very killable).

However the archmage with just staff of solidarity is 280pts leaving 470 for the Lord...so either a Sun dragon with some toys or a moon dragon and errr nothing.

Rumors of a griffon as well, they any more points effective?

HeroFox
12-07-2010, 02:23
Rumors of a griffon as well, they any more points effective?

No, they are not cost effective.

tiekwando
12-07-2010, 03:54
worse than a sun dragon in every single way. However I am tempted to try elathrion with storm wing in 8th. Especially if the rumored start set contains a lord on a griffon. Actually better than a sundragon and you get a 5+ ward

CmdrLaw
12-07-2010, 09:46
I prefered the blind eltharion before his reset, much cooler idea.

Desert Rain
12-07-2010, 10:06
A griffon would be more useful if a noble could take it. For the prince a dragon of any kind is so much better.

Falkman
12-07-2010, 11:18
A griffon would be more useful if a noble could take it. For the prince a dragon of any kind is so much better.
Would be really neat if they do that in the next army book (or an errata *hopes*).

CmdrLaw
12-07-2010, 13:12
New thought with the Core, as I still think LSG are much better value than Archers.

What about a single unit of LSG (maybe 20-25) backed up by 2 20 man spearman units. Keeps the numbers up but your not overly focused on the expensive LSG.

Bit more points wise than the MIN 25% but has real potential for mobile spear force with a bit of thrown in shooting.

Desert Rain
12-07-2010, 13:29
My current core set-up has one unit of each, though I have yet to test their performance on the battlefield. Hopefully I'll get the chance soon though.

Allonairre
12-07-2010, 23:02
New thought with the Core, as I still think LSG are much better value than Archers.

What about a single unit of LSG (maybe 20-25) backed up by 2 20 man spearman units. Keeps the numbers up but your not overly focused on the expensive LSG.

Bit more points wise than the MIN 25% but has real potential for mobile spear force with a bit of thrown in shooting.

From what I have read it is not the overall bodies that are the problem more the number in each unit. Battle reports talk about losing over 10 guys in a round of combat often, and a unit of 20 can't stomach that very easily.

HeroFox
13-07-2010, 09:00
I'm going to start up army specific tacticas soon.
Which ones would you like to see first? Name top 5.

Von Wibble
13-07-2010, 16:42
By this I presume you mean specific to the enemy army?

The armies I would most want to see tactica on how to beat with high elves are

1) Dwarfs. They shoot my units until I have just a couple of ranks left, and then their combat units (which are no more expensive than mine) beat the rest. More specifically, tactics to beat the lwan ornaments without resorting to a boring game (eg hiding your army behind a hill for most of the game, trynig to outshoot him etc).

2) Empire.

3) Skaven

4) Dark Elves

5) Orcs and Goblins - specifically the goblin horde army with several 50 strong 5+6++ save units backed up by chariots, trolls and war machines.

Hunter13
13-07-2010, 19:30
I'd like to see:

1. Dark Elves
2. WoC
3. DoC
4. Skaven
5. Empire

Makoto00
13-07-2010, 19:31
1. Daemons
2. Dwarves
3. Dark Elves
4. Ogre Kingdoms
5. High Elf mirror match

Tokolosh
13-07-2010, 20:17
This is what i've read from the gamesworkshop tactica;


Anti-hordes
The High Elves can chew up hordes of Goblins, Skaven, Empire State Troops, Skeletons, Zombies, Bretonnian Peasants and so on without even breaking a sweat. Because they strike first (and will invariably have a higher Initiative so get a re-roll to hit) and they fight in so many ranks (two as standard, plus one for spears, another for the Martial Prowess special rule and another for a horde if you're so inclined) they will cause untold carnage on the enemy. A large block of Spearmen will absolutely ravage a unit of Skaven or Goblins and emerge on the other side largely intact... which is just as well because such a unit will often have to kill two or three such foes before the battle is over!

So if i have read i right; a horde of spearmen or LSG will fight in 5 ranks! That is really insane, 51 attacks with (almost anytime) a reroll to hit!

HeroFox
13-07-2010, 20:23
A Horde of Spearmen is more points than you'll ever want to see in one unit.

Liancour
13-07-2010, 20:23
So if i have read i right; a horde of spearmen or LSG will fight in 5 ranks! That is really insane, 51 attacks with (almost anytime) a reroll to hit!
Unfortunately if your opponent also got stone throwers, you will quickly get big holes in your big spearman/sea guard unit.
A dwarf warmachine killed 19 of my sea guard in a game I played.

Tokolosh
13-07-2010, 20:32
A Horde of Spearmen is more points than you'll ever want to see in one unit.

That's true, i believe its about 750 points, way to much for just one unit, but i looks pretty cool :p

What unit size do recommend? I think about 20-30 is more than enough.

Skyros
13-07-2010, 20:34
A horde of spearmen is just asking to lose 300 points when the enemy mage does 'dwellers below'.

We're safe from pit of shades (mostly) but dwellers below HURTS!

HeroFox
13-07-2010, 21:43
That's true, i believe its about 750 points, way to much for just one unit, but i looks pretty cool :p

What unit size do recommend? I think about 20-30 is more than enough.

I recommend 25-30 for Spears. Not more.

LSG should be around 20-25 maybe after the games I've played with them. Too expensive to take in large numbers.

ColShaw
13-07-2010, 22:09
In my view, one of the strengths of HE Spears is that they DON'T need to be in a Horde in order to get lots and lots of attacks. Seriously, how often are you going to even want 5 ranks of Spearelves? But being able to fight in 4 ranks even when NOT in a Horde; now THAT is good.

Xyon
13-07-2010, 22:44
Unit of dragon princes with the prince or noble with the foe bane, buff them up with okams mind razor the turn they charge the steam tank. They'll be strength 10. Or phoenix guard buffed with the same spell will the strength 10. As long as weapon bonuses can still be applied after the st=ld takes place.

Desert Rain
13-07-2010, 23:03
Spearmen are way to expensive to be used in a horde, they kill enough with half the number of what a horde requires. And I would rather have 2 units of 25 than one of 50.

NecronBob
13-07-2010, 23:28
Unit of dragon princes with the prince or noble with the foe bane, buff them up with okams mind razor the turn they charge the steam tank. They'll be strength 10. Or phoenix guard buffed with the same spell will the strength 10. As long as weapon bonuses can still be applied after the st=ld takes place.

Mind razor doesn't affect the armor saves, so the tank will still be saving at 1+. So, if you got 10 attacks, you'd wound with 5 and it'd fail one.

I think spears with a prince would be a better choice to razor because you'd have more attacks, and the strength would be the same. 20 attacks would wound about ten, so it might fail 2 saves.

CaliforniaGamer
13-07-2010, 23:33
Mind razor doesn't affect the armor saves, so the tank will still be saving at 1+. So, if you got 10 attacks, you'd wound with 5 and it'd fail one.

I think spears with a prince would be a better choice to razor because you'd have more attacks, and the strength would be the same. 20 attacks would wound about ten, so it might fail 2 saves.

Why wouldnt Razor affect armor saves?? The attack is considered to be made at str=LD. Str affects armor saves, people are way overthinking this....

Xyon
13-07-2010, 23:36
The dragon princes would still count as S5 as far as armor save modification is used on the turn of the charge.

It depends on the specific effect of the spell though. Would spearmen only be S8 because thats what their LD is, or would they be S10 because of the boosted LD from the prince. Because while the unit as a whole may use LD10 for LD based tests, each individual model would still be LD8 except for the prince.

riotknight
14-07-2010, 02:09
Why wouldnt Razor affect armor saves?? The attack is considered to be made at str=LD. Str affects armor saves, people are way overthinking this....

Agreed. As someone who has been on the receiving end and giving end of this spell, i don't see how anyone would have thought that it didn't.

Siphon
14-07-2010, 04:08
Just found a nice Elf model I like quite a bit with two swords and scale looking armor that looks light. Was trying to come up with a load out that fit the model and came up with this...

Fencer' Blades
Glittering Scales
Dragonhelm
Temakador's Gauntlets

It's not super competitive, but WS 4 or less will need 6's to hit (5s vs other heros and lords), vs str 3 it's a straight up 4+AS, vs higher Str the lord gets a +5 Ward (so actually better % vs Str 4 then str 3) and has a 2+ ward save vs any flaming attacks. Also would have 5 attacks at str 4. Opinions?

NecronBob
14-07-2010, 05:42
Agreed. As someone who has been on the receiving end and giving end of this spell, i don't see how anyone would have thought that it didn't.

Hmmm, having read that again, I guess that's right. I was reading "strength bonus from weapons are ignored" to mean that it didn't affect armor, but it seems as if that is just keeping you from stacking great weapons on top of that.

That's a nice spell.

Kloud13
14-07-2010, 05:51
Maybe Alith Anar might be worth taking in 8th. Thoughts?

I'm thinkin plant him and some Shadow Warriors in a forest on one flank, and then place a pair of RBT's in your deployment zone about 12" more towards the centre of the table than the scouting shadow warriors. Alith Anar can shoot bolts in the enemy's flank, most likely hitting on 2's. if the enemy turns to deal with him and the shadow warriors, they get bolts in the flanks from RBT's.

riotknight
14-07-2010, 06:31
The only thing is, he can't do anything better than a regular prince with Bow of the Seafarer. He's not AS bad this edition, but if you're tight on points i'd just go with a prince.

dangermouse425
14-07-2010, 06:50
I was thinking of running my Lvl.4 in a spearman bunker of 25-30. Is this the best place for him? You don't want your mage in anything more hitty than spears, right?
Surely you're wasting all those points of spears by keeping them away from combat? Or is the protective element of the unit worth the cost?

Kloud13
14-07-2010, 07:09
Since Magic Resistance buffs your ward save VS Magic, Would a unit of PG get the buffed ward save vs damage caused by a friendly mage's miscast if the mage is in the unit?

Trains_Get_Robbed
14-07-2010, 07:49
I like running my low level mages in a small unit of archers with Silver Wand and Reaver Bow. It gets the extra wound or two I'm looking for and the unit of archers actual become a damage interdictor in addition to the mages spell capabilities.

Okam's Mind Razor wins. However, how does a unit attack with Ld 10? I thought it was each individual model's Ld.

How is everyone dealing with Stone throwers and Mortars? I play O & G, Empire, Dwarfs a decent amount and it literally can be a auto-lose if I don't take their warmachines out. My spear blocks get picked on like a red-headed step child leaving them out to dry agaisnt normally viable targets. At this point I have releagated them to soaking up shooting while my other units get into combat unless I take the "Jeffery the Infamous." He is a hero that rides on a G.E and has E.S, D.A, S.O.M, and G.P. Gives him 3 S5 attacks a +2 AS and a +5 Ward, not super good but gets his tasks almost always done: hunting warmachines. You could feasible give him other weapons or kits, but the whole point for him when I take him is to kill warmachine crews.

Other than that, I can't see and other viable way of taking out warmachines beside G.E spam, getting archers/RBT close enough and then endangering them to enemy missile fire. However, with G.E they act better as deterrants as T4 no save dosen't last long when shootin'z around and the closer your missile troops are the closer theirs are. :rolleyes:

HeroFox
14-07-2010, 08:26
I thought it was each individual model's Ld.

It is.


How is everyone dealing with Stone throwers and Mortars? I play O & G, Empire, Dwarfs a decent amount and it literally can be a auto-lose if I don't take their warmachines out.

Deploy units of 20 in 10x2 and march, then swift reform and move a little, then charge your next turn.

Have anyone tried Eagles vs. any shooty lists yet?

I have a BR to write up about a 2k game vs Dwarves... but I'll do that tomorrow. Long story short though: I failed my LO,S! rule on my Lv.4 on first turn and he got sniped by a cannon. Awesome.

dangermouse425
14-07-2010, 08:34
I failed my LO,S! rule on my Lv.4 on first turn and he got sniped by a cannon. Awesome.

How did they fare without magic support?

What did your mage bunker consist of?

Hashulaman
14-07-2010, 09:52
Is anyone here not going to take teclis? Does anyone here think you have taken leave of your sense if you don't take teclis in games where you could?

Desert Rain
14-07-2010, 10:13
Is anyone here not going to take teclis?
I'm never going to take Teclis


Does anyone here think you have taken leave of your sense if you don't take teclis in games where you could?
Absolutely not.

Falkman
14-07-2010, 11:45
Since Magic Resistance buffs your ward save VS Magic, Would a unit of PG get the buffed ward save vs damage caused by a friendly mage's miscast if the mage is in the unit?
It buffs your ward save vs spells, a miscast is not a spell.


Is anyone here not going to take teclis? Does anyone here think you have taken leave of your sense if you don't take teclis in games where you could?
Same as Desert Rain, I will probably never play Teclis, it just seems too boring.
I'll play either a regular lvl 4 or a Prince on Sun dragon.

Punjoke
14-07-2010, 13:21
Why wouldnt Razor affect armor saves?? The attack is considered to be made at str=LD. Str affects armor saves, people are way overthinking this....

To be fair, this isn't the RAW. It does not make your strength = leadership, it makes your To Wound roll based off of your leadership rather than your strength. I would allow it to affect armor saves in my games, but strictly by the way the spell is written it does not.

Everyone at my LGS is completely enamored with the gimmicky "Spearman horde." I use two blocks of 25 and I think they are literally crazy to try to run them as a horde.

I have, however, been wondering about a horde of 30 Phoenix Guard. 450 points before command is still more points than I like to sink into a single unit, but they're cheaper than spearmen by quite a bit and extremely durable. I've considered trying them out as an "anti-horde" horde, possibly with a BotWD BSB and/or Korhil (I use Korhil in my armr already.) Anybody else have any thoughts on this one?

CmdrLaw
14-07-2010, 13:30
I have, however, been wondering about a horde of 30 Phoenix Guard. 450 points before command is still more points than I like to sink into a single unit, but they're cheaper than spearmen by quite a bit and extremely durable. I've considered trying them out as an "anti-horde" horde, possibly with a BotWD BSB and/or Korhil (I use Korhil in my armr already.) Anybody else have any thoughts on this one?

I think the best defense against hordes is either magic (a horde of Stormvermin lost 25 models 1st turn to flames of phoenix) or hitting with multiple smaller units prefereably in the flank.

Think running HE as horde with any unit is madness.

ColShaw
14-07-2010, 14:32
I think what's good about HE Spearmen is that they can fight as if they were a Horde of any other race (fight in 4 ranks) without actually needing to be a Horde. Going 5-deep with them would be too many points to be practical anyway, most times.

Hydex
14-07-2010, 14:45
Is anyone here not going to take teclis? Does anyone here think you have taken leave of your sense if you don't take teclis in games where you could?

Having T2 and absolutely no save whatsoever he can be sniped easily by almost anything I play against (Empire, Warriors of Chaos w/ Nurgle, LM with Slann+Death).

I just don't use him.

riotknight
14-07-2010, 16:19
Having T2 and absolutely no save whatsoever he can be sniped easily by almost anything I play against (Empire, Warriors of Chaos w/ Nurgle, LM with Slann+Death).

I just don't use him.

I've played 2 games. In the first game, he was absolutely KEY to my victory. Irresistable Hex's (lower toughness by D3) + 2 units of LSG + 2 Bolt Throwers = 1 Unit of 30 Sauras dead a turn.

Throw in Curse of Arrow Attraction and it's just disgusting.

My second game was capture the t ower. I lost, but only because I forgot that at the end of turn 4 you start rolling. Teclis didn't do much against the Skaven magicwise for whatever reason, they were already low toughness, although reducing Storm Vermin Initiative was nice for Pit of shades, too bad they were in the tower so only d6 models hit.

I have 1 more game I want to play with teclis, hopefully against Empire, or Possibly Vampires. If all goes as well as he did in my first two games, I'll likely just drop him for an Arch Mage with Book of Hoeth.

HeroFox
14-07-2010, 17:25
How did they fare without magic support?

What did your mage bunker consist of?

He only edged out a minor victory. My Mage Bunker was 20x Phoenix Guard w/ Banner of Sorcery with Korhil and a BSB Noble w/ AoC/GP standing next to him. Some bodyguard you are Korhil!

Without magic, killing Dawi infantry was incredibly messy. I had Lore of Shadow and needed the hexes to reduce their toughness but without it, my Spears couldn't do enough damage to his Warriors. They lost combat pretty badly but managed to hold on a 4. My LSG got shot to death my 1st turn. I had half a unit of 20 by the time I made it half way across the board.

My White Lions though, they got mauled by the Organ Gun but I was able to get in combat with his Hammerers + BSB and kill them to the last man (I started with 15 WL and left with 5). That was a whole unit of 20 Hammerers too. Both being Stubborn was a pretty epic sight to see.

As for the PG Bunker, Korhil and the Noble, after losing the Mage, I reformed into a block (I was deployed in 10x2 to minimize damage from Stone Throwers), I charged into a squad of Warriors, broke them, and started doing loops around his army's back side to kill all the Warmachines (he had 2 cannons, an Organ gun and 2x Stone Throwers). After killing both STs, a Cannon, the OG and the unit of Thunderers, I was down to 2 guys lol.

I had 3 models at the end of the game, it was epic.

ColShaw
14-07-2010, 17:31
I had a guy recently suggest the Banner of the World Dragon on a BSB for a big HE unit. Does anyone think this might be worthwhile? Yes, I know the BSB would end up very vulnerable, but being flat-out immune to the really nasty unit-killing spells might be worthwhile, even if he gets the chop as soon as the unit hits combat. Thoughts?

enyoss
14-07-2010, 17:40
Is anyone here not going to take teclis? Does anyone here think you have taken leave of your sense if you don't take teclis in games where you could?

I'm with Desert Rain and Falkman here. Taking the prepacked special characters feels a bit like a cop out to me, so I only do it rarely. It's like playing a first person shooter on easy with auto-aim: you might win, but... meh.


I had a guy recently suggest the Banner of the World Dragon on a BSB for a big HE unit. Does anyone think this might be worthwhile? Yes, I know the BSB would end up very vulnerable, but being flat-out immune to the really nasty unit-killing spells might be worthwhile, even if he gets the chop as soon as the unit hits combat. Thoughts?

I'm never convinced by the fancy banners for my BSB. First and foremost, the BSB is there for re-rolls on leadership tests, so I like to choose magic items which help keep him alive when the going gets tough.

HeroFox
14-07-2010, 17:53
what is with all the special character BS?

The HE army is good enough to not need them.


I'm with Desert Rain and Falkman here. Taking the prepacked special characters feels a bit like a cop out to me, so I only do it rarely. It's like playing a first person shooter on easy with auto-aim: you might win, but... meh.

Seems like deja-vu over here and on Ulthuan.net.

Why take SCs? Because they're amazing for their cost.

People say they're a crutch and refuse to take them because they think it's more of a challenge. I think the exact opposite: Why wouldn't you take them when they're the most cost effective choice? To me, you're not getting the best bang for your buck. 15 years of competitive gaming has groomed me to think this way.

So first, it's not "BS" if others find the cost-effective option the best option. And second, I think you old timers need to break out of your anti-SC shell and look into the likes of Teclis, Korhil and Caradryan and discover that you've been cheating yourselves for way too long.

For me, the shortest way to victory is a straight line. By not taking the best man for the job, you're doing loops instead of just going for the goal: To win the mission, to save as many Elven lives as possible, to achieve victory.

Edit: Please don't get offended by this post, I'm a very direct and honest person. I'll give it to you straight up.

Hydex
14-07-2010, 18:14
Edit: Please don't get offended by this post, I'm a very direct and honest person. I'll give it to you straight up.

As I said it's much easier than ever now to kill him even in a unit, but oh well no doubt he's powerfull.

Plus 90% of the tournament I go to forbid all SCs, so I'm used not to rely on them...

CmdrLaw
14-07-2010, 18:22
My opinion on Special characters is I take them if I like them fluff wise and its an appropriate points cost game, don't generally take lord lvl SC's unless game is like 3000+.

But if I'm running a big unit of White Lions or Phoenix Guard in a 2000 list then would be comfortable with Caradryan or Korhil turning up.

They are in the game for a reason, I would be put out if opponent kicked up a fuss about SC's after we were about to deploy as I hate re-writing lists last minute.

But the debate was about downsides of Teclis rather than SC's in general. And I worry alot about his lack of a save, with an archmage you can give him the robe and he will be happy in combat...but you can never never never have teclis any where near a fight, pretty big risk involved. But big reward as well.

Considering giving up on LSG and shooting now that I worked out 2 x 25 man spearman unit is exactly 500pts with FC...... easiest 25% min ever.

Hydex
14-07-2010, 18:25
Even if not in combat he can be killed, it's quite easy to get a line of sight now and some spells don't even require it.

HeroFox
14-07-2010, 18:29
Considering giving up on LSG and shooting now that I worked out 2 x 25 man spearman unit is exactly 500pts with FC...... easiest 25% min ever.

Best choice you can make at that point level :)

Von Wibble
14-07-2010, 18:48
Even if not in combat he can be killed, it's quite easy to get a line of sight now and some spells don't even require it.

I agree. I think a 4+ ward save for any wizard lord should be considered mandatory, for all that magic assassination plus units directing blows in combat and of course those miscast effects.

I don't mind SCs as long as they aren't taken all the time. However I do think that a well designed SC should provide the army with an interesting option that they couldn't otherwise get. The only SCs that really do this are Caradryan and Eltharion, and to a lesser extent Tyrion. SCs should really be more like the excellently designed TK ones, or even LZ and DOC (great ideas, shame about the ridiculous points costs that are too high (LZ) or too low (DOC)).

Characters like Throgg and Morghur really add a different feel to the game. Anyone who says that SC should never take them clearly is biased just by the bad examples (Teclis, Thorek pre FAQ, Archaon, etc).

On missile troops, I think it is worth taking some. A lot of HE spells (which I consider an essential element of the army) will have the potential to boost the missile troops even from turn 1. Enchanted blades of Aiban, Flaming Swords to name but 2. I think by not taking any shooting you actually run the risk of weakening your magic phase.

Additionally, I have tried HE armies without shooting before. The problem is that there are plenty of units in the game that become excellent if they can guarantee facing no shooting, and really ruin a HE armies day. The alter highborn is a good example of this if used carefully enough.

I have to agree with enyoss regarding the BSB. I just cant see a way to give him a magic banner and have him survive long enough to really benefit. Unlike quite a lot of armies HE have plenty of units capable of fielding magic standards up to 50 points, so we only really lose the battle banner. And I know I'll just end up rolling a 1 for its effects. Not to mention with steadfast in place I'd rather spend the points there on getting an extra chariot to provide me more kills to reduce ranks.

Marlow
14-07-2010, 18:53
For me, the shortest way to victory is a straight line. By not taking the best man for the job, you're doing loops instead of just going for the goal: To win the mission, to save as many Elven lives as possible, to achieve victory.I agree with HeroFox. Use all the tools in your tool kit. Teclis has everything you would want on a mage except for a save...


But the debate was about downsides of Teclis rather than SC's in general. And I worry alot about his lack of a save, with an archmage you can give him the robe and he will be happy in combat...but you can never never never have teclis any where near a fight, pretty big risk involved. But big reward as well.He has a magic sword and ASF so he is not a slough in combat. As mentioned his weakness is no saves so a single bad roll can see him go splat under a cannonball or similar. He is the best offensive option, but would a more defensive Archmage with a Ward save and/or Robes be better?

He can still die to a bad roll, but at least it takes two bad rolls now. I also think Teclis is too many eggs in one basket for 2k games. So how would people equip an Archmage if they were going to have to use one?

HeroFox
14-07-2010, 18:56
So how would people equip an Archmage if they were going to have to use one?

Lv.4, Staff of Solidity in 2k. Cheap and effective, and don't care about rolling boxcars because you ground out just fine.

enyoss
14-07-2010, 19:15
Why take SCs? Because they're amazing for their cost.

People say they're a crutch and refuse to take them because they think it's more of a challenge. I think the exact opposite: Why wouldn't you take them when they're the most cost effective choice? To me, you're not getting the best bang for your buck. 15 years of competitive gaming has groomed me to think this way.

So first, it's not "BS" if others find the cost-effective option the best option.


Note that I didn't say it was. One of my best mates uses the Empire special characters in just about every game and I have no problem with that. The question was though `who wouldn't use Teclis', so I thought it was worth giving my answer. :)



And second, I think you old timers need to break out of your anti-SC shell and look into the likes of Teclis, Korhil and Caradryan and discover that you've been cheating yourselves for way too long. For me, the shortest way to victory is a straight line. By not taking the best man for the job, you're doing loops instead of just going for the goal: To win the mission, to save as many Elven lives as possible, to achieve victory.


Again, I'm not anti special characters. In fact, I used to get quote annoyed that many people insisted they were `opponents permission only' in 6th edition when they actually weren't, in an attempt to curtail their use. I use Eltharion from time to time, although I don't really use the rest. It's just that for me, the fun comes from adhering to the background as well as pushing toy soldiers around. Having Korhil lead phoenix guard while Caradryan sits around with the white lions just irks. Having a bunch of celebrity heavy hitters turn up to a 2K scrap makes me feel positively dirty. I guess that for me, victory is only really sweet when I win and satisfy the restraints I impose in keeping to the background.



Edit: Please don't get offended by this post, I'm a very direct and honest person.

I promise nothing! Nah, no offence taken, your post was actually pretty to the point while being perfectly polite. Apart from the old-timer bit though... :cries:

HeroFox
14-07-2010, 19:44
Apart from the old-timer bit though...

I'm getting there too unfortunately. I used to be able to build a list off the top of my head because I'd memorize the entire book.. but recently I've found that I had to go back and check some point values :cries:

acsmedic
14-07-2010, 20:00
I would only play Teclis in a few situations.

1. Ard Boyz (mandatory cheese)
2. An opponent requests that I play Teclis to practice against him
3. A narrative battle where the story has Teclis there.

I would never bring teclis (or the book of Hoeth for that matter) to any friendly game or GT.

In 7th I use to take 2 lvl 2 mages as my primary opponent was VC and I just enjoyed the battle to get off and dispel that happened every magic phase. Teclis just kinda takes that fun out of it for me.

GenerationTerrorist
14-07-2010, 22:45
Hi guys. I had my first 3.5K game with my High Elves (plus some Eagles I borrowed!) for 8th Edition today. I played against a Double-Slann Lizardmen army.

Basic summary of my list:

Prince (DP Setup minus Lance) with Foe Bane, Enchanted Shield, Vambraces, Gem of Courage
Lvl4 (High Magic) with Folariaths Robe, Tricksters Pendant and Guardian Phoenix

Noble BSB with Great Weapon, Armour of Caledor, Dragon Horn
Noble (DP Setup) with Star Lance
Lvl2 (Fire) with Sigil of Asuryan on Barded Steed
Lvl2 (Light) with Feedback Scroll

2 units of 30 Spearmen (5*6) with Standard
1 unit of 19 Archers (10*2) with Standard (Lvl2 Light goes here)
2 units of 12 Archers (6*2) with Standard

1 unit of 11 Dragon Princes (7*2) with Musician and Standard of Balance (Prince, Noble and Lvl2 Fire goes here)
1 unit of 28 Phoenix Guard (7*4) with Full Command (Banner of Arcane Protection and Amulet of Light) (Lvl4 and BSB goes here)

4 RBT's
2 Eagles

My opponent had 2 Slann (one was Ethereal) - both having the know-all-spells thing and some other stuff. One took Life and the other took Beasts. The non-ethereal Slann was in a large bunker of 20 Temple Guard. He also had 2 blocks of 25 and 2 blocks of 18 Saurus, 3 units of skink skirmishers, 2 EoTG's and a Skink Priest with a flying cloak. Plus some Salamanders....

It was quite a messy game that ended up with my Spears either side of my Phoenix anvil in protracted combat with his Temple Guard and Saurus Blocks. My Eagles quickly dispatched his Salamanders and The RBT's combined well to down a EoTG. My Dragon Princes, then smashed into his no longer screened flank (where the Sallies were) and over 4 turns, my Elves rolled their way through that flank. By the end of turn 6, the Phoenix Guard and Temple Guard were still going at it but that was all he had left apart from a small unit of Saurus (12 or so) and a fair number of Skinks that had rallied. My Archers took out the other EoTG (thanks to Arrow Attraction!), even though it took ever single on of them to do it! My Spearmen then hit the flanks of his Temple Guard, the DP hit the rear, and it was a conceded game.

The magic was not very interesting, given the magical strength of the two armies involved. Both sides were unable to get much off in the first few turns. Then the magic slowly went in my favour from turn 3 onwards after his Ethereal Slaan miscast and so I used my Tricksters Pendant. Goodbyeeee Froggy!

I have found that in the new edition, the games seem to be really fast compared to 7th. Anyone else see this too?

Quick notes from a HE perspective:
- Phoenix Guard are damn awesome in this edition.
- Dragon Princes are still useful as ever, but my unit was so big that I was terrified of something happening to them.
- High Magic is still brilliant, and I'd never go to a game without atleast a Lvl2 practicioner of it.
- The BSB is more important than the general in my list, seeing as the Spear Blocks were tight either side of the Phoenix Guard. He saved them from running a good number of times.

Anyway, thanks for reading and sorry if it was boring!

Next time, I might give the old Star Dragon a blast to see if he is as rubbish as everyone thinks he will be in 8th.

wamphyri101
14-07-2010, 22:57
Telling you something worth trying (used it tonight)

30 White lions (10x3) with AP banner and Bsb (Armour of calador, guardian phoenix and gw)

31 WS5 (with re-rolls) Str6+ AP attacks with 3 WS6 Str6 (AP) Attacks....

then 2 lion chariots in support!

Makes a mess of most units and those it doesnt wipe out doesnt have much to fight back with

enyoss
14-07-2010, 23:06
30 White lions (10x3) with AP banner and Bsb (Armour of calador, guardian phoenix and gw)

...

then 2 lion chariots in support!


How on Earth did you manage to get all those models attacking? How wide was your opponent's unit? :eek:

HeroFox
14-07-2010, 23:11
How on Earth did you manage to get all those models attacking? How wide was your opponent's unit? :eek:

I hope he was fighting a 10x4 wide Grave Guard formation with the Regen Banner!

Banner of Eternal Flame owns that unit so hard its ridiculous.

The_Lemon
14-07-2010, 23:17
Has anyone else checked the building rules? Have you considered what those rules mean with our 4+ ward save infantry?
Phoenix guard+ all your wizards+ building = your wizards are untouchable and will be able to cast every spell every turn as long as you have enough power dice.
At 2k games I am really considering an archmage with teh tower magic object 2x 25 spears with Fc, archmage with life, a bsb naked (maybe a dragon armor to get inmunity to fire) a couple of extra mages and the rest of the points in a BIG unit of phoenix guard, enemy will only be able to get points from the spears.
If any PG die just resurect them with lore of life, and if you loose combate you have ld9 reroll to stay.

Desert Rain
14-07-2010, 23:44
Seems like deja-vu over here and on Ulthuan.net.
It does doesn't it ;)
You and I play the game for different reasons. You seem to play for the win (nothing wrong with that) and I play "for fun". Winning isn't the most important thing for me, as long as I have a fun game with models that I like I'm happy. I don't like Teclis, or Korhil and Caradryan for that matter, at all. Their models are pretty meh, their rules are boring and they do not fit with the 'feeling' I want for my army. Therefore I don't take them
I have been toying around a bit with a Nagarythe themed list with Alith Anar because that character is so awesome (fluffwise).
I could go on about this for a long time but I think you all get my point.

On a more tactical matter, I have just signed up for my first real tournament. It is a team tournament with 1500 (750 per team) points. I am using my High Elves and my team mate is using Wood Elves. Having just 750 points to spend is really tight, so any suggestions would be appreciated. At the moment I'm thinging about a mage, sea guard for core, dragon princes and some white lions as special and an eagle or a tiranoc chariot for support.

Today I also played my first 8th edition games, and they were really fun. White Lions rocked like never before and I will never leave home without them anymore. RBTs were a bit vulnerable but still OK. Sea Guards were much nicer than in 7th but I'm still undecided about them or if Spears + Archers are better. Dragon Princes and Swordmasters shredded stuff just like before. Re-rolls to hit against almost everything is fantastic as well!
I used Lore of Shadows on my mage and it was just awesome. Reducing WS and T at the same unit makes even Sea Guards able to kill a lot in CC.

Falkman
15-07-2010, 00:09
On a more tactical matter, I have just signed up for my first real tournament. It is a team tournament with 1500 (750 per team) points. I am using my High Elves and my team mate is using Wood Elves. Having just 750 points to spend is really tight, so any suggestions would be appreciated. At the moment I'm thinging about a mage, sea guard for core, dragon princes and some white lions as special and an eagle or a tiranoc chariot for support.
[shameless plug] You should also sign up for Gates of Westridge in september :).
[/shameless plug]

750 points is, as you say, really hard since High Elves is one of the most expensive armies in the game. This is what I've run with at 750 pts, and it works pretty good against most opponents (except Doomwheels, Stegadons and Hydras ofc):

Mage: lvl 2, Silver wand
20 Spearmen: Full command, Standard of Discipline
12 Swordmasters (substitute for PG or WL if you prefer): Standard and musician
Tiranoc chariot
Eagle claw bolt thrower

Clocks in at 748 points, and it's a fairly all-round list that is active in every phase of the game, and decent in all of them as well.

Desert Rain
15-07-2010, 00:29
[shameless plug] You should also sign up for Gates of Westridge in september :).
[/shameless plug]
I would probably go if it hadn't been for the bad timing with some other stuff.


Mage: lvl 2, Silver wand
20 Spearmen: Full command, Standard of Discipline
12 Swordmasters (substitute for PG or WL if you prefer): Standard and musician
Tiranoc chariot
Eagle claw bolt thrower

Clocks in at 748 points, and it's a fairly all-round list that is active in every phase of the game, and decent in all of them as well.
Looks like a good list, but I don't think that I can paint 20 spearmen in 9 days ;)
I could drop them for a unit of 13 Sea Guards with FC and add another 2 Swordmasters/White Lions to the unit and thus not needing to paint more than a couple of new models,.

I have made a couple of lists that can be found here (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4822365#post4822365)

Falkman
15-07-2010, 00:31
Looks like a good list, but I don't think that I can paint 20 spearmen in 9 days ;)
Bah, I once painted 20 Dwarf warriors in one Coke (the drink) fuelled night :p.

Desert Rain
15-07-2010, 00:42
Bah, I once painted 20 Dwarf warriors in one Coke (the drink) fuelled night :p.
Since I need to paint 5 WLs as well I think painting 25 models in 9 days is an unreachable goal considering my painting speed. I guess I could try though, would be great to have the spears painted as well.

Falkman
15-07-2010, 00:44
I know what you mean, I paint like 1 model per year or something unless I've signed up to a tournament and just can't borrow something from anywhere :p.

Xyon
15-07-2010, 04:05
1 lvl 4 with book of hoeth and life, and 1 lvl 2 with seerstaff and shadow to be sure to get the toughness - spell and whatever else you want seems like a good combo if you lucky enough to get the 2+ ignore miscast spell.

HeroFox
15-07-2010, 04:15
So I'll be facing Skaven next week. I told my opponent to take the nastiest list he can possibly take. I'm excited to play vs it.

I hope I still get the +1 to hit vs. large targets or else that HPA is going to be hell.

Longrunripper
15-07-2010, 04:19
I know what you mean, I paint like 1 model per year or something unless I've signed up to a tournament and just can't borrow something from anywhere :p.

If you want to see fast painting, see my friends blog: http://toomuchmetal.blogspot.com/
The guy is a machine. 19 spear boyz and 33 black orcs in 2 days (and yes, he has a full time job)

I'm playing my first game of Fantasy Battle tomorrow in about...2.5 years.
I have no idea how I'll do, as I'm jumping in at the deep end, playing a friend who is fairly competitive, and I've decided to unleash the cheese that is Teclis and Caradryan (contrary to seemingly popular belief, my favourite character fluffwise). Not sure if we are playing 2250 or 3000, but I've made lists for both values. I'll see how it goes I guess.

Emeraldw
15-07-2010, 04:28
But the debate was about downsides of Teclis rather than SC's in general. And I worry alot about his lack of a save, with an archmage you can give him the robe and he will be happy in combat...but you can never never never have teclis any where near a fight, pretty big risk involved. But big reward as well.


Teclis does have his downsides. No save hurts, but his powerful magic casting pretty much ensures a good magic phase and you can make a unit +3T and a whole slew of other things. Teclis can survive because he can make his unit so much better and the biggest disadvantage of magic is negated with him.

Anyone tried Lothern Sea Guard? On Paper they look much improved but I am not sure 2 big blocks of them will be worth it.

HeroFox
15-07-2010, 04:38
2 blocks of them definitely isn't worth it.

I suggest big blocks of Spears and a supporting set of Swift Reforming LSG with just a Musician.

Desert Rain
15-07-2010, 10:13
I'd say the same as HeroFox, Sea Guards are nice but I wouldn't take them as my only core.

CmdrLaw
15-07-2010, 10:35
I get more worried about blocks of seagaurd after I lent my elves to a friend against skaven, got hit by big plague spell and wiped half of them out. Thats with the magic resistance banner.

Too many big spells out there that can IF too easily and all we can do is watch pricey elves die.

More numbers and cheaper seem the way forward, spearelves can still be very nasty especially with some basic buffs on them like the signature beast spell but as long as people are focused on them and not the white lions, phoenix gaurd, SM then its all fine.

Problem I can't get away from with LSG is that the specials are only 2 points more and Sooooo much better.

Longrunripper
15-07-2010, 17:38
I'm playing my first game of Fantasy Battle tomorrow in about...2.5 years.
I have no idea how I'll do, as I'm jumping in at the deep end, playing a friend who is fairly competitive, and I've decided to unleash the cheese that is Teclis and Caradryan (contrary to seemingly popular belief, my favourite character fluffwise). Not sure if we are playing 2250 or 3000, but I've made lists for both values. I'll see how it goes I guess.

I've written a Battle Report on my (very, very sparse) http://coppersilvergold.blogspot.com/ (Blog) Note: if you want to ask me something specific, post it here and not on my blog, I so very rarely check on it, and am just using it to host the BR.

A few things became apparent. I should have removed the BSB from the unit so that Teclis could have cast Throne of Vines and been a little most effective, although he did the trick. Could have been a little more devastating. However, against armies with access to Death, Shadow and Life, the banner is, IMO, necessary to stop 475 points being sniped off the table.
I toyed with the idea of using the Lore of Shadow, but the scatter on the Pit makes me dubious. I like certain death. Without working the numbers, scatter + Initiative test = two ways to avoid death rather than Dwellers one.
The other thing is that Teclis gets all the spells in Life, and ideally, you want to be casting all of them. Even though I never cast it (again due to the banner and not realising augments didn't need LoS until two thirds of the way through. To be honest, it's a tough call between Shadow and Life. I think you could pick either and no pretty well. Shadow might be more favourable against armies with larger blocks of infantry as opposed to Ogres.
Phoenix Guard touch me in my special place.
White Lions and Caradryan where, woefully inadequate, but I understand that to be due to dice luck.

Punjoke
15-07-2010, 20:15
I hope I still get the +1 to hit vs. large targets or else that HPA is going to be hell.

If you mean from shooting, you do not. On the plus side, the Eternal Flame banner is only 10 points.

The_Lemon
15-07-2010, 21:53
I just noticed this, the number of dice in the power/dispell dice pool is decided at the start of the magic phase, so no more saving teclis' or saphery's banner dice for later when you need them.

Just played today against brettonia, Trebuchets hurt a lot, fortunately the cavalry charge is not as deadly as it was and swordmasters and white lions make short work of their knights.

johnnyfoodmaster
15-07-2010, 23:08
I think I'm going to start HE and this thread has been awesome to help me. I started reading the thread before I knew the 8th rules, but now it makes sense.

HeroFox
16-07-2010, 07:28
Well, got a very tough game next Tuesday vs. Skaven.
2500 points, no hold bars, pure carnage.

Hmm.. what to do with those tricky Warmachines and/or HPA?

The_Lemon
16-07-2010, 09:24
Well against skaven Heavens is pretty usefull, because the comet will hurt his army a lot, even more now that it does not disappear. Against HPA a combination of archers/lsg with flamming attacks banner and a couple of bolt throwers should be able to hurt them a lot. And agaisnt lots of warmachines between comets and some eagles should die fast.

HeroFox
16-07-2010, 09:34
I was actually thinking about using Lore of Fire vs. Skaven.

I mean Flaming Swords of Rhuin makes Spears wound the HPA on 5s and does flaming attacks..

Desert Rain
16-07-2010, 09:34
Against the HPA perhaps a unit of white lions with the flaming banner? If you don't want to rely on shooting against it.
The warmachines can be shot by archers/sea guards though that leaves them unable to deal with the HPA.
Lore of Heavens should be useful against them, as would High Magic be for flames and shield.

HeroFox
16-07-2010, 09:35
Against the HPA perhaps a unit of white lions with the flaming banner? If you don't want to rely on shooting against it.
The warmachines can be shot by archers/sea guards though that leaves them unable to deal with the HPA.
Lore of Heavens should be useful against them, as would High Magic be for flames and shield.

Yes, I have Banner of Eternal Flame on my unit of 6x4 White Lions.
Caradryan is actually baby-sitting the Phoenix Guard since they'll need some anti-HPA protection.

PS - Desert, this is the 2nd time I've seen you on another forum that I'm on :D

CmdrLaw
16-07-2010, 10:34
Any Spells that will insta-kill a HPA? dwellers not best due to high STR but any others that would help?

Desert Rain
16-07-2010, 11:33
Yes, I have Banner of Eternal Flame on my unit of 6x4 White Lions.
Caradryan is actually baby-sitting the Phoenix Guard since they'll need some anti-HPA protection.

PS - Desert, this is the 2nd time I've seen you on another forum that I'm on :D
Both those units can take on the HPA pretty reliably then, so your shooting can be aimed at the weapon teams.


Any Spells that will insta-kill a HPA? dwellers not best due to high STR but any others that would help?
Not really it has a high S which makes dwellers unreliable against it. It has I4 so it is still pretty protected from PoS but at least you get a 1/3 chance of killing it with the PoS spell as opposed to a 1/6 chance with dwellers.

Trains_Get_Robbed
16-07-2010, 18:29
Whatever you do, Fox don't bother taking Eagles. I play Skaven regularly and 9/10 the stormbanner is taken, and unless your opponet is insane he will take it. Its awesome when you can't get into position to charge warmachines on the first turn or get stranded out in no mans land on the second turn. I have found that Ellyrion Reavers although point heavy, do a nice clean up job on the flank whether thats agaisnt slaves or taking out Warmachines due to CR. Just make sure to hit a flank! ;)

Longrunripper
16-07-2010, 23:20
Oddly enough, I saw an Empire v Skaven game, and the Skaven player had the Storm Banner.
Dwellers Below may not be all that against the HPA, but it's definitely going to destroy large blocks of skaven infantry, as well as any hidden assassins, and plague furnace/screaming bell guards

The_Lemon
17-07-2010, 22:55
The other day I found a way to protect teclis, or any other weak char from the dangers of melee at the cost of loosing hitting power, lets assume you have a 20 man infantry unit with full command, you would usually deploy them in 4 ranks of 5 models (5x4) but if you deploy them as 10 ranks of 2 models (2x10) enemies will never be able to hit Teclis unless they flank charge it, because command group is always at the front rank. If you really want to protect him from flank attacks reform your unit 3 wide so Teclis can be at the center of the unit so no attacks can be assigned to him. Also he will be at the second rank so he will be able to attack safely with his only attack that wounds on 2 and ignores armour.

Longrunripper
18-07-2010, 01:52
The other day I found a way to protect teclis, or any other weak char from the dangers of melee at the cost of loosing hitting power, lets assume you have a 20 man infantry unit with full command, you would usually deploy them in 4 ranks of 5 models (5x4) but if you deploy them as 10 ranks of 2 models (2x10) enemies will never be able to hit Teclis unless they flank charge it, because command group is always at the front rank. If you really want to protect him from flank attacks reform your unit 3 wide so Teclis can be at the center of the unit so no attacks can be assigned to him. Also he will be at the second rank so he will be able to attack safely with his only attack that wounds on 2 and ignores armour.

Nice. You don't even have to go all the way to ten. Just enough to stop your typical 3 wide ogres of 5 wide cavalry. Obviously, if your enemy is in horder formation, then yes, you'd have to match 10 wide.
Figured that against enemies without the lore of death, life or shadow, I can afford to move the banner of the world dragon out of the spear bunker and buff the unit to T7 (6 for Teclics) with a 4+ regen (With throne of vines).

One things is a little unclear. If the Throne of Vines is dispelled in the enemy magic phase, do the current increased effect remains in play spells, such as stone skin, reduce to their non-throned version? The spell only states that casting the Throne has no effect on spells already in play. Thoughts?

Falkman
18-07-2010, 01:53
He means 2 wide and 10 deep.
Command group will force Teclis into the second rank.

CmdrLaw
19-07-2010, 00:39
Not using Teclis so looking at Archmage builds.

Now it seems he can be alright at casting/dispelling and quite safe by giving him say the Staff of solidity and Forlaiths robe..

Or give him book of ashur/hoeth and turn into very very good caster but with little/no protection.

Going to be sitting in phoenix gaurd with BSB and possibly Korhil...are the unprotected casters just too vulnerable?

HeroFox
19-07-2010, 00:50
Going to be sitting in phoenix gaurd with BSB and possibly Korhil...are the unprotected casters just too vulnerable?

Nope. Just be careful with them and you'll be fine.

CmdrLaw
19-07-2010, 12:25
Nope. Just be careful with them and you'll be fine.

Now when you say be careful...don't want to keep the PG out of combat as they are a great unit, Korhil can soak the challenges and I can keep mage on the corner of unit. But any opponent would be sending as many attacks at the Archmage as possible his T3 no saveness will be hitting the dirt rather promptly.

TheKingInYellow
19-07-2010, 16:43
Or using Lore of Death and sniping off the mage in turn one.

HeroFox
19-07-2010, 17:46
Now when you say be careful...don't want to keep the PG out of combat as they are a great unit, Korhil can soak the challenges and I can keep mage on the corner of unit. But any opponent would be sending as many attacks at the Archmage as possible his T3 no saveness will be hitting the dirt rather promptly.

See, in last edition, I used to be comfortable with keeping my mage safe because you can eyeball charge distances, use non-TLoS and run the Mage out of the unit if you need to.

In 8th, because there's random charges, true LoS and a Mage out of a unit is a dead unit, you're going to have to rely on just taking it to the face. It doesn't matter if Korhil, Caradryan or a BSB is standing next to him, once that unit gets hit in combat, things are going to be swinging at the mage. Putting him on the corner will reduce his attacks back, but your best bet overall is just buffing the unit you're in if you know you're going to get hit, or move your other units in the way of that unit getting charged, or just reform really wide with Swift Reform.

Be colorful :)

Desert Rain
19-07-2010, 18:02
You could always deploy the AM with a rearguard unit so that he doesn't have to get involved in the fighting right away. I deploy mine with a unit of 14 LSG which I keep as reserve, allowing her to cast her spells from a safe distance until the LSG moves to support another unit. Mine has a 4+ ward save and I put her on the edge of the unit and she hasn't died once so far.

Punjoke
19-07-2010, 19:50
One things is a little unclear. If the Throne of Vines is dispelled in the enemy magic phase, do the current increased effect remains in play spells, such as stone skin, reduce to their non-throned version? The spell only states that casting the Throne has no effect on spells already in play. Thoughts?

I have been playing it so that the spells stay the same even if Throne of Vines is dispelled. My reason being - Stone Skin and all of the rest are NOT remains in play spells. They are augments that last until your next magic phase and once they're cast successfully they're set - you can't dispel them nor are they 'on-going effects' the same way as an actual RIP spell is.

If Throne of Vines did affect a RIP spell (and I don't think it does) I would say that it would decrease in strength if the Throne was dispelled.

Desert Rain
19-07-2010, 19:55
I've been interpreting it in the same way as Punjoke has. They are not remains in play spells, and therefore there effect doesn't change when Throne of Vines is dispelled.

Longrunripper
19-07-2010, 20:13
I have been playing it so that the spells stay the same even if Throne of Vines is dispelled. My reason being - Stone Skin and all of the rest are NOT remains in play spells. They are augments that last until your next magic phase and once they're cast successfully they're set - you can't dispel them nor are they 'on-going effects' the same way as an actual RIP spell is.

If Throne of Vines did affect a RIP spell (and I don't think it does) I would say that it would decrease in strength if the Throne was dispelled.
An oversight on my part. Many thanks joke and rain.

HeroFox
19-07-2010, 20:23
So my next tactica will be High Elves vs. Dark Elves.

Gotta keep it epic. You guys wanna see anything in particular? I've pretty seen it all in that god forbidden matchup.

Lord Shadowheart
19-07-2010, 20:38
So my next tactica will be High Elves vs. Dark Elves.

Gotta keep it epic. You guys wanna see anything in particular? I've pretty seen it all in that god forbidden matchup.

Not sure how bad it is now, not faced them yet under the new rules, but I've always had problems with Dark elf magic, power of darkness in particular, how to deal with their magic could be useful :)

HeroFox
19-07-2010, 20:47
Yes, I expect their magic to be top notch this edition. That will certainly be included. In fact, I think I'll go start now :)

CmdrLaw
19-07-2010, 20:51
You could always deploy the AM with a rearguard unit so that he doesn't have to get involved in the fighting right away. I deploy mine with a unit of 14 LSG which I keep as reserve, allowing her to cast her spells from a safe distance until the LSG moves to support another unit. Mine has a 4+ ward save and I put her on the edge of the unit and she hasn't died once so far.

I prefer to have my characters together leading the charge if you will, the 4+ ward save is a good idea if you are in a support unit.

But as its 45pts for the BRB item, means they can't take the big magic enhancing items such as the Books of Hoeth/Ashur.

GenerationTerrorist
19-07-2010, 21:52
Hi guys. Has anyone had any joy with the Dragon Mage so far in 8th Edition? I liked running one in smaller games in 7th Edition and did not want to go back down the Star Dragon Prince road for my early forrays into 8th.

Anyway, I tested mine out on Sunday, with Guardian Phoenix and the Silver Wand. Sadly two units of Ogre Leadbelchers smashed both the Mage and the Dragon up in the 2nd turn :-(

In the 2nd game (a rematch!) he was fantastic - The Flaming Sword on a unit of Phoenix Guard or Spearmen is pretty neat.

Still a hefty old points sink (430-ish), mind you.

Desert Rain
19-07-2010, 23:52
I prefer to have my characters together leading the charge if you will, the 4+ ward save is a good idea if you are in a support unit.

But as its 45pts for the BRB item, means they can't take the big magic enhancing items such as the Books of Hoeth/Ashur.
If you use Lore of Shadows you can always use either the special effect of the lore or the steed of shadows spell to move him out of harm's way.

Kirby
20-07-2010, 06:21
Curious to see opinions on the two magical bows (Seafarer/Reaver) for a Prince/Noble in a shooting oriented army. Just playing about with ideas atm as I get into Fantasy...

Oberon
20-07-2010, 09:13
Hi there

I'm starting core-heavy high elf army at the moment in anticipation of the new starter set, and as I'm playing around with the army builder it begins to look a lot like the HE force in WD (lots of sea guard, lots of bolters, mages and some shadow warriors, you've seen it). Is it a viable force or only fit for non-competetive thematic battles of WD? I've played with WoC for a while now, and I'm having a hard time seeing the worth of HE core troops with their low stats and all.

Falkman
20-07-2010, 12:57
Curious to see opinions on the two magical bows (Seafarer/Reaver) for a Prince/Noble in a shooting oriented army. Just playing about with ideas atm as I get into Fantasy...
A cheap Noble with just the Reaver bow and heavy armour in a unit of Archers could probably work pretty well.
If you want to use the Bow of the Seafarer you pretty much need a flying mount as well, to be able to position for maximum effect on the shots (not to mention it requires a Prince, which means it's gonna be expensive).


I'm starting core-heavy high elf army at the moment in anticipation of the new starter set, and as I'm playing around with the army builder it begins to look a lot like the HE force in WD (lots of sea guard, lots of bolters, mages and some shadow warriors, you've seen it). Is it a viable force or only fit for non-competetive thematic battles of WD? I've played with WoC for a while now, and I'm having a hard time seeing the worth of HE core troops with their low stats and all.
I think it can work pretty well.
I was also a bit sceptical about HE core, but I've been running a 25-man strong unit of Sea guard and two 10-man units of Archers for core, and they are pretty good. It is plenty of shooting, and the Sea guard also gets to toss out a whole bunch of attacks in combat.
You probably want a mage to be able to cast some buff spells on them though, if you do they're golden.
I only use one Bolt thrower since they're quite expensive and to be honest, pretty crap in this edition (too fragile).
I recommend you take some Eagles to hunt down enemy war machines, might keep your own alive a bit longer.

Darktan
20-07-2010, 15:15
you might think HE core stats are a little low for the points, and perhaps they are, but don't forget the re-rolls to hit in every round of combat against nearly anything (I5 and below) does make a decent difference to their killing power, and as falkman said, buff spells can work wonders.

Zaszz
20-07-2010, 15:35
I find the LSG to be too expensive and fragile. Most of our army is already expensive and fragile, just begging to get hit with artillery. I much prefer your basic spear elf, in 2k points I run 2 units of 25 with full command and suppliment with an arch mage buffing lore of life on them.

The basic spear for his cost is fairly effective and at 25 deep I have to lose 6 models to hurt my attack out put. When supported by that mage they can do some pretty astounding things, also I don't leave home without a BSB stacked in defense.

For my special and rare I use phoenix guard and standard of sorcery, magic is sexy now. To finish the list off I'll toss in eagles, heavy cav, and lion chariots for hitting power and speed.

With a list like this if the life buffs get out often my opponent is left with very few fragile targets let for all his war machines and big spells to punish, and when your an expensive elite army you can't afford to lose droves of 13 point models.

CmdrLaw
20-07-2010, 15:45
Can I ask of a good tactic for dealing with fanatics?

Now planning on running the lovely spearmen for my core only and not taking any RBT, this leaves my army woefully low on shooting....

Now with the higher charge ranges there is a chance I can get to the gobo unit before the fanatics are released but don't know if this will help much, other than random spells is there reallly any other solution.

Darktan
20-07-2010, 15:58
have some scouts or fast cav deploy in front of units likely to have fanatics and release them as early as possible.

not the best way perhaps, as you could lose the unit to shooting/magic if your not going first. but don't fanatics deploy automatically when a unit comes in range, even if it's part way though a charge? i don't think you can deny their use.

CmdrLaw
20-07-2010, 16:03
Unfortunately the elven fast cav/scouts are awful so don't tend to run with them.

Can't remeber the exact timing of fanatics....all I can think of at the moment is buffing the toughness on some phoenix gaurd and running into them.

HeroFox
20-07-2010, 17:33
Shooting has taken a back seat in our HE gameplay I'm afraid. Some people still like picking at their opponents with S3 bows, but close combat is where it's at. Every single 8th Ed. game I've had so far was like determined in close combat.. with shooting nowhere as important as last Ed. The only shooting that stood out was Stone Throwers, and thus this is why High Elves have to rely on smart use of defensive spells and Swift Reform to get into combat without suffer catastrophic losses.

CmdrLaw
20-07-2010, 18:02
Yeah that's my thinking Herofox.. mostly because HE range units are so expensive but its the reroll to hit in melee that cinches it for the fast moving dynamic CC force, which is why I'm now worried about said fanatics.....

Maarten K
20-07-2010, 18:18
mind you that those fanatics, once killed, cause a panic test each in the goblin units nearby. since NG's have a very low LD, youur bow armed units and magic users can have a field day killing them. it will most likely limmit the number of fanatics you'll encounter.

Desert Rain
20-07-2010, 18:20
The Shooting Phase is the one that we are the weakest in, despite everything that GW says 11 points for a S3 BS4 shot isn't good. Our RBTs has taken a serious blow with the new rules.
Magic, Melee and Movement are our strengths and the phases that you should focus on if you want to win. Shooting is a nice support though with some archers and or sea guards.

Foxbat
20-07-2010, 22:03
I plan on dropping the number of RBTs I will be taking, but I am likely going to keep Archers for the near term. I think there are just too many annoying light troops that having a unit of Archers to trim drown is worth it.


mind you that those fanatics, once killed, cause a panic test each in the goblin units nearby.In the revised O&G errata, GW added that Fanatics don't cause Panic tests when killed.

CmdrLaw
21-07-2010, 00:17
Right been playing with a few lists based on what I have picked up and the models I have available.. for 2K points have come up with this:

Archmage LvL 4 345 pts
Annulian Crystal
Folariath's Robe

Korhil 140 pts

Noble 168 pts
Great Weapon; Battle Standard Bearer
Armour of Caledor
Guardian Phoenix

Lothern Sea Guard x25 FC 360
Shields, Banner Eternal Flame

Spearmen x25 FC 250 pts

Phoenix Guard x15 FC 305 pts - All characters go here.
Banner of Sorcery

Dragon Princes x10 330 pts Musician, Standard

Repeater Bolt Thrower 100 pts

-1998

Now original planning was for 2 units 25 spears and an additional lvl 2 mage to support the lvl 4, but I think a single lvl 4 can probably hold the field magic wise in a 2k game, annulian crystal helps immensely. Robe gives him plenty of protection in a unit.

Hacking out the lvl 2 also gives space for a single RBT and to upgrade a single spearmen to LSG, the multiple shots will be useful for any light skirmishing units.

Gamu
21-07-2010, 00:20
Any thoughts about swordmasters?

I think they are the key to win in 8th, in units of 7 or 12. Many people will use hordes, or very deep units to become stubborn. Enemies will use their cheapest units against us.

With WS6 and str5, swordmasters can deal with any infantry out there. You will hit 8/9 and wound 5/6. That is 10 kills every round. As long as you kill enemy's characters in the front rank, not many soldiers will strike back.

Fighting against heavy armored cavalry was a great weakness of our SM, now they will face cavalry armies less often in allcomers environments.

The real problem for them will be shooting, but all our army has this problem. ¿which solutions do we have? ¿is there any spell that can help us in that matter? ¿are eagles the solution?

HeroFox
21-07-2010, 00:25
As long as you kill enemy's characters in the front rank, not many soldiers will strike back.

How on earth did you reach that conclusion? Welcome to 8th Ed. where everything can hit back.

Kirasu
21-07-2010, 02:39
not convinced on swordmasters honestly.. I rather take more phoenix guard who have a much better chance of not being slaughtered by return attacks

Trains_Get_Robbed
21-07-2010, 06:46
Swordmasters are next useless in big blocks since as you pay for a 15 point model that is only getting half its attacks in the back rank in this ed. and has a 5+ save. W.L hit harder and with roughly 5-7 attacks less (not much difference when you going up against tough units -seriously why would you S.M if in a big unit ever go up against Mauraders? No they go after Chaos Warriors) and P.G always survivable got a bigger killing boost with attack in two ranks, rerolls and can take A.P banner if needed.

S.M in my mind are something I'll be passing on unless I have a 100 so odd points in which I'll run a small unit like in 7th and put them on a flank.

I love the Reaver Bow, I put it on my Lvl two all the time and it gets the weapon's and mage's points back, or some other battle worthy feat: quarters or movement dictation etc. . . Ex: last game Reaver Bow Silver Wand Lvl 2 killed off 3 of the remaining 5 Chaos knights (the LSG didn't finish) in one turn and saved the LSG's/Stone Thrower/Big Uns tails' from a next turn charge. :D

The Seafarer I believe to not be as easy as a choice, mainly because not kitting you Prince to kill in combat is can be more of a point sink (Eagle) and chancy. Taking a chance on something popping up in the right time for a juicy shot is good and all, but is it not more of a gurantee of kills/wounds/triumphant act that will be performed on the back of a dragon or with the White Sword? etc. . . Ex: Killing a Old Blood on Carnie.

However, that being said, the Seafarer is almost guranteed RBT shot off every turn.
"Dragon Princes x10 330 pts Musician, Standard"

No offesne broski but this is a waste of points two hits from a S4 attack (shooting, magic whatever) screws you out of your rank breaking capability. Take them still. Just take 5 and with nothing (maybe ellyrion banner if you want to hide them from "some" missile fire) and have them be the support to a non-killy unit like spears or LSG, simple anvil hammer. Plus it allows for you to take that Lvl 2 you wanted ;)

Also, I don't see the need for a BsB if your general is going to be in the unit as its either Ld ten or Ld 9 with rerolls. I would put the BsB on a flank with Spears or LSG, more kiling power to the unit and most likley will be needed there.

CmdrLaw
21-07-2010, 10:03
I agree with S.M's being alot less effective this eddtion, think they can work in small units of maybe 12 to tear stuff up or maybe to divert shooting from "important" units.

I think DP's should be able to shrug off some light missile fire, they should in combat very quickly anyway. They do have a 2+ save, although likely will be facing alot of skaven "Ahh jezails!" or massed gobbo shooting so you might have a point...might take other stuff and try to fill out any remianing points with a couple of extra DP's.

Now a lvl 2 Mage with the Reaver bow is an idea, never thought of that....sounds very interesting.

And as far as the BsB goes, he was meant to soak challenges but now korhil can do that so can shift the BsB to the LSG....would benefit from flame banner as well, just in case.

SeaSwift
21-07-2010, 10:11
P.G always survivable got a bigger killing boost with attack in two ranks, rerolls and can take A.P banner if needed.

Actually, while being survivable, PG didn't get as big a boost as WL fighting in 2 ranks, and the other elite infantry get rerolls as well (see FAQ).


I agree with S.M's being alot less effective this eddtion, think they can work in small units of maybe 12 to tear stuff up or maybe to divert shooting from "important" units.

15pt Swordmasters with T3 and a 5+ save should NEVER be used as arrow fodder.

CmdrLaw
21-07-2010, 11:11
15pt Swordmasters with T3 and a 5+ save should NEVER be used as arrow fodder.

Can work quite well, SM still put the fear of god into many people and they will thow an disproportionate amount of firepower into them. You can also buff them with sheild of saphery, T boost or regen from life.

unheilig
21-07-2010, 17:09
This thread is downright depressing.

I was excited about the idea of playing HE... my favorite units being SM and LSG... now I'm not sure I feel like playing much at all

Sent from my SPH-M900 using Tapatalk

TheKingInYellow
21-07-2010, 17:23
Is there any value in taking MSU or 5 or 6 SMs still, say 4 units of 5? You can field a bunch of them without the limitation on slots now, and they are going to split up the fire from any enemy magic or shooting. They might just be expensive decoys, but if they keep fire off your big units of spears, WLs and PGs it might be worth it.

Some enemies will choose to ignore them, and they do that at their own peril. Even just 5 SMs wailing on the flank of a unit is going to do some serious damage to just about anything.

salamander
21-07-2010, 18:44
I'm still going to run a small unit of SMs down each flank to help out my bigger units of LSG and PG

TheKingInYellow
21-07-2010, 20:06
Yeah, I have a 3k point game tonight, and I was going to use two Lion Chariots to do the flanking work, but for the same points I could run units of 7 or 8 SMs... Hmm...

Siphon
21-07-2010, 20:56
So an Archmage with Folariaths robe, talisman of saphery, snd a dispel scroll is about the safest caster in the game? I could even put him in a unit with banner of the world dragon. I'm wondering about charging him at a super combat lord. He can't really be hurt, the combat lord would just have to sit there doing nothing while you continue casting buff spells each turn. Am I missing some rule that prevents this?

Foxbat
21-07-2010, 21:59
So an Archmage with Folariaths robe, talisman of saphery, snd a dispel scroll is about the safest caster in the game? I could even put him in a unit with banner of the world dragon. I'm wondering about charging him at a super combat lord. He can't really be hurt, the combat lord would just have to sit there doing nothing while you continue casting buff spells each turn. Am I missing some rule that prevents this?I think it would work. Of course you could take his offensive magic minded brother who comes with the Staff of Solidity instead of the scroll.

Sardaukar
21-07-2010, 22:12
Interesting thread, keep it up! :) Now, I'm only beginning with my High Elves army (or WHFB, that is), and I'm sure I'll drop by to ask a few questions! Number one: The wizard: I was thinking along the lines of: Lvl4, Seerstaff, Lore of Life (Throne of vines, Dwellers Below, Regrowth and the +T thing, which I don't know in English :) I think Life is pretty good for squishy yet expensive HighElves, and I like those spells! Thoughts? And what should i give him for protection? And where should I put him? Right now, i field him in a unit of 15 archers.

brendino
22-07-2010, 01:55
Is there any value in taking MSU or 5 or 6 SMs still, say 4 units of 5? You can field a bunch of them without the limitation on slots now, and they are going to split up the fire from any enemy magic or shooting. They might just be expensive decoys, but if they keep fire off your big units of spears, WLs and PGs it might be worth it. .

In regards to the MSU swormasters, see the "swordmaster road blocks" thread that I posted.

Pskyrunner
22-07-2010, 08:01
So an Archmage with Folariaths robe, talisman of saphery, snd a dispel scroll is about the safest caster in the game? I could even put him in a unit with banner of the world dragon. I'm wondering about charging him at a super combat lord. He can't really be hurt, the combat lord would just have to sit there doing nothing while you continue casting buff spells each turn. Am I missing some rule that prevents this?

well he isnt protected against miscasts


btw. does Botwd protect, loremasters cloak, normal magic resistance protect against miscasts?.. there seem to be many discussion on this


i think these items doesnt tho, just normal ward save/lore of life/staff of solidity/teclis thats about it i guess

Desert Rain
22-07-2010, 08:40
I wouldn't say that any of them protects you against a miscast since the wording in both items refer to spells. A miscast isn't a spell so therefore you wouldn't get the protection. Though you could perhaps interpret BOTWD in a way that allowes you to ignore miscast, but that is some serious rule-bending.

Leonathion
22-07-2010, 09:13
Is the restriction of 1+ spear elf regiment still valid in 8th?

The_Lemon
22-07-2010, 09:46
Is the restriction of 1+ spear elf regiment still valid in 8th?

There was never such a restriction. At least not in 5º, nor 6º, nor 7º army books.

Leonathion
23-07-2010, 13:34
Oops my bet.

Deadite
23-07-2010, 14:58
So, I'm considering picking up several Island of Blood starter sets and I'm looking for advice about the Army in general. I see that the first post in this thread was mostly conjecture before the 8th ed rules were even released, followed by at least one page of bickering and squabbles about various rules quibbles. At that point I grew bored and didn't want to bother reading through the next 10 pages for more squabbling and conjecture before the 8th ed rules have been released.

Now that 8th ed is actually here...
Where exactly in this 33 page tome of knowledge is some sage advice for newbies like myself? What units should I be looking toward to expand on the starter set? I'm thinking 2-3 starter sets and an investment in several regiments of archers would be in order? After that, whatever units I fancy?

Falkman
23-07-2010, 15:09
Archers are probably not the best unit to purchase in any large amounts, since their shooting isn't strong enough to do much other than help pick off support units.
I'd suggest getting the starter kits, maybe a battalion, and then the character kits.
That would give you Lothern Sea guard, Swordmasters, Spearmen, Archers, a Bolt thrower, some Silver helms and a couple of heroes to lead the force.

After that you can fill out the rest with eagles, chariots and maybe some more elite infantry. Keep in mind that White lions, Phoenix guard and Dragon prince models looks set to be replaced in october, so if you don't fancy the current battalion content you could wait and buy the rumoured reinforcement battalion, which is said to contain one box each of White lions, Phoenix guard and Dragon princes.

TheKingInYellow
23-07-2010, 15:42
Just a followup to my MSU of Swordmasters post above.

*If* *if* *if* you can avoid shooting, they are still worth the points for sure. My opponent went light shooting, concentrated on a block of 35 spearelves with mage and let a unit of 5 SM get a flank on his Boar Boys.

5 Dead boys, and a wound on Gorbad later, and I doubt he will make that mistake again/

Casshole
23-07-2010, 16:16
You get alot fo VPs for MSU, besides that i think its worth trying.

Desert Rain
23-07-2010, 16:31
For us who use the Lore of Shadows the issue with Okkam's Mindrazor has been solved by the new FAQ, it does indeed affect armour saves.

TheKingInYellow
23-07-2010, 16:43
For us who use the Lore of Shadows the issue with Okkam's Mindrazor has been solved by the new FAQ, it does indeed affect armour saves.

Which makes my 7x5 block of spearelves very happy. 28 rerolling WS4 S8 attacks? Yes please :)

Siphon
23-07-2010, 19:20
A wizard with folariaths robe that has used kadons transformation gets to keep special rules and Magic items and equipment. Hello dragon that can only be hurt by magic items or dragon with 4+ ward save.

VoodooJanus
23-07-2010, 19:26
A wizard with folariaths robe that has used kadons transformation gets to keep special rules and Magic items and equipment. Hello dragon that can only be hurt by magic items or dragon with 4+ ward save.

made that same mistake- the rule is saying that special rules, unlike items and equipment, aren't affected by the transformation. The spell itself says that items and equipment aren't able to be used, otherwise there'd be no need for a faq.

Siphon
23-07-2010, 20:05
Ahhh I see. Well you would still get the +1 to dispel then. Haha

Desert Rain
23-07-2010, 21:29
And Speed of Asuryan, which is nice :)

Nocculum
23-07-2010, 21:53
What is everyone's view on High Magic in 8th?

The_Lemon
23-07-2010, 22:03
I like it, but for a support mage, I prefer for our main mages the brb lores.
Of course flames of the phoenix in combat is now awesome as it is vaul's unmaking. I guess the best could be a lvl 2 with seerstaff to choose your spells at teh start of the battle (seerstaff wording) and get the spells you really want against your oponent. If he has lots of hordes flames, lots of magical equipment vaul's unmaking, and so on.

Falkman
23-07-2010, 22:29
What is everyone's view on High Magic in 8th?
I think High Magic is still a pretty solid lore.

The basic spell (Shield of Saphery) is really nice, 5+ ward save to any unit within 18" is a really nice buff, a better version of the Lore of Life signature spell basically.

Curse of Arrow attraction has never been a spectacular spell in my opinion, unless you load up on bolt throwers and both magical bows it just doesn't do enough to be worth taking over the simple damage spells.

Courage of Aenarion is a decent spell, not gamebreaking in any way, and hopefully you'll win your combats, but if **** hits the fan it's nice to have.

Fury of Khaine is a standard 2D6 S4 magic missile, although these doesn't seem so common anymore. Still a nice spell to remove support units with, or strip away those oh so important ranks from enemy hordes.

Flames of the Phoenix is brutal with the new rules. The remains in play rules mean you can keep this baby burning while still casting other spells, and the increase in unit sizes means it will dish out more damage.

Vaul's unmaking is still brilliant, characters will always carry magical gear, and with the removal of multiple dispel scrolls it will be easier to get through.

Drain magic is still as good as ever, making enemy wizards have to use another dice to cast vastly increases their chances of miscasting and dying.

All in all a good lore, it's got a little for everything, and compared to most of the Rulebook lores it has really low casting values, meaning you can cast several good spells even with low Winds of Magic rolls.

The worst spells in the list is easily Curse of arrow attraction and Courage of Aenarion, swap them for Shield of Saphery if you didn't roll it already.

puckus10
23-07-2010, 23:25
Hey guys, wat is the best stuff to give an archer-prince with seafarer? no mount

Petey
23-07-2010, 23:35
I gave up on my seafarer prince, just not cost effective in the new 3rd turn charging universe I live in, I gave mine a 5+ward save and stuck him on an eagle for maximum annoyance factor

Draconian77
24-07-2010, 02:18
While I agree with Falkman with regards to the High magic deck, I do disagree about Curse. Curse is so much better now. Around here, must High Elf players have decided to field that 25% Core with two units of 25+ Seaguard or a unit of 25+ Seaguard and a unit or two of 10 man Archer units. Re-rolling up to 50 dice a turn is very impressive compared to last edition where you would be re-rolling a dozen or less 90% of the time. The caveat of course is that S3 shooting is only scary to certain units(anything with T3 and a save of 4+ or worseor unarmoured monsters).

stummie
24-07-2010, 03:37
I just have 3 things to say. 50 man unit of P.G, 50 man unit of P.G, 50 man unit of P.G. earlier tonight i took out about 1500 points of a daemon army including bloodthirster in a 2500 point game. I put teclis in there and used lore of shadow. Occam's Mind Razored the living bejeesus out of those guys, and most of my ward saves came up average so it was pretty hard to beat. has anyone else tried this yet? If so, how did it do?

Trains_Get_Robbed
24-07-2010, 08:20
Um, how about a unit iof 30 P.G losing 5 to chemaleon skinks in the first turn alone and the rest in combat agaisnt a Carnie/Oldblood. Its pretty B.S that he gave the oldblood an item that makes you reroll your ward saves and also pretty B.S that my White Sword wielding Prince of K.B awesomeness sucked it hard and didn't kill anything, never using again.

What was awesome however, was Purple Suning half his army to death and then winning the game on turn five as a D.P, BsB, and two LSG won a combat agianst his last steg and it fleed into a buliding/ I ran it down. Winning with two RBTs, a Lvl 2 mage and two LSG, priceless. :D Only one game left in the grudge, thinking about going shooting heavy and a 2 lvl 2 for dispell.

NOTEEEEEEEEEEE: NEVER EVER NEVER EVER NEVERSSZSZSZSSSZZZ attack the old blood, attack the carnie, way easier to kill. And three steggies is going to be hard to kill. Reaver Bow came up clutch again.

Stummie: It also helps that the best army to fight demons with, is probably H.E. I mean they all have realtively low T, little armor, and don't get to go first almost ever and rely on winning/losing combat by only a little to not lost numbers. S3 never had such a field day! ;)

Draconian77: Why not take Banner of Eternal Flame? Makes it much easier to wound. My LSG loved it in the game today. :D

HeroFox
24-07-2010, 08:45
Draconian77: Why not take Banner of Eternal Flame? Makes it much easier to wound. My LSG loved it in the game today.

Makes what easier to wound?

Thruster
24-07-2010, 09:39
I have a question to the professional HE generals out there. Is Prince on Star Dragon still available in 8th given few shooting army? Also, what would be a good build for him.

Thanks! :D

Draconian77
24-07-2010, 17:03
I echo Herofox's sentiments...makes what easier to wound?

gogs78
24-07-2010, 18:05
Anyone else thinking of ditching the shooting phase?

I know it can still be strong but with the new rules for shooting at RBTs and the fact you can get more spears than seaguard, seems you might as well ditch all shooting (without RBT support LSG bows aint really going to do that much) and go all out cc infantry, with some eagles and chariots to support.

brendino
24-07-2010, 18:50
dont know if this has been mentoined yet in this thread, but has anyone tried a 50 man LSG horde. I mean with volley fire you can advance and still pump out like 35 shots a turn, or you can just sit 12" on in a massive 25 man line with other troops behind, put out 50 shots a turn and then reform to a combat formation where you can get 50, ASF, rerolling (almost always) attacks in CC. I dont know, maybe its better to just use two 25 man blocks for manouverability etc, but you gotta love the look of that horde on the table, and another rank of spears is always nice.

Siphon
24-07-2010, 21:48
You can't volley fire if you move or on stand and shoot reactions. I've been less then impressed with seaguard for their points.

Draconian77
24-07-2010, 22:18
Anyone else thinking of ditching the shooting phase?

I know it can still be strong but with the new rules for shooting at RBTs and the fact you can get more spears than seaguard, seems you might as well ditch all shooting (without RBT support LSG bows aint really going to do that much) and go all out cc infantry, with some eagles and chariots to support.

I don't think that Elves can really afford to ignore the shooting phase completely but I also wouldn't take Bolt Throwers.

brendino
25-07-2010, 00:24
You can't volley fire if you move or on stand and shoot reactions. I've been less then impressed with seaguard for their points.

oh, thanks for that, didn't realize that you could not volley fire and move, I guess you could just stay in that formation for convienience because 25x2 is very unwieldly.

Also have you been playing against alot of T4 opponents? because I find that for some reason I just CANNOT wound T4 with S3 bows/spears, with my LSG, so annoying. I know that its going to be harder of course, but I guess i just underestimate the difference one point of toughness makes.

Temakador
25-07-2010, 01:31
for the death spell "The purple sun of Xereus" once cast can you place the template anywere on the bored? it just says once the template has been placed. so if this is true is a stupidly powerfull spell, and when you combine it with teclis for example it cant be stopped on any roll of a double, a large pit of shades will land on the biggest enemy unit on the bored before going ahead and hitting any other unit in an artillery dice times 3 so up to every unit in 30 inchs in a straight line which means a battle line can just be eaten up in one turn of magic,
then teclis gets a stupid amount of extra dice for all his kills (still caped at 12 overall though) and casts more.
it just seems far to OP to be true so were have i gone wrong?

sayles78
25-07-2010, 01:40
for the death spell "The purple sun of Xereus" once cast can you place the template anywere on the bored? it just says once the template has been placed. so if this is true is a stupidly powerfull spell, and when you combine it with teclis for example it cant be stopped on any roll of a double, a large pit of shades will land on the biggest enemy unit on the bored before going ahead and hitting any other unit in an artillery dice times 3 so up to every unit in 30 inchs in a straight line which means a battle line can just be eaten up in one turn of magic,
then teclis gets a stupid amount of extra dice for all his kills (still caped at 12 overall though) and casts more.
it just seems far to OP to be true so were have i gone wrong?

In the rules for a Vortex (in magic section), it says you place a vortex in contact with the base of the caster.

gogs78
25-07-2010, 08:54
I don't think that Elves can really afford to ignore the shooting phase completely but I also wouldn't take Bolt Throwers.

I do agree, its just that i cant see the other shooting units causing more than a few wounds per turn. I always liked to combine bows and RBTs on onto the same unit most of the time.

Hmm... having said that i suppose most other peoples war machines are just about as vulnerable to archer fire now as our own!

Falkman
25-07-2010, 11:21
If you have mages with the Lore of Shadow you can improve your shooting by a lot.

High Loremaster
25-07-2010, 17:19
I played my first 8th edition game yesterday, 2500 points, and it was High Elves versus High Elves so I got a handle on how HE runs from both sides of the table. Bear in mind this was pretty much my first Warhammer game since 6th edition (I played a grand total of four games in 7th).

Spearmen: Pretty good. I had two blocks of 25 each. One had a fairly epic battle against my opponent's Swordmasters that turned his way when he got some Life spells off (T7 SMs are not funny). The other got hit by a Dragon, so.... yea. I feel like if I'd used them properly they could've been great, but I'm still rusty.

Archers: I only have 10, and I had to use them to fill out my minimum core. They shot up my opponent's fast cav pretty easily. He brought an enormous block of something like 25 or 30 that were much less destructive than I initially envisioned. Their shots (and a unit of Shadow Warriors') were almost all directed at my 17-strong Swordmaster unit for the entirety of the game, and my SMs still made it to his lines with three.

Dragon Princes: No clue, I didn't deploy them properly so they never saw combat except with the Dragon. Their fate is obvious.

White Lions: My opponent had a unit of 12 or so that I avoided shooting at for obvious reasons. They fell hard to my Phoenix Guard without dealing too much damage in return, which leads me to...

Phoenix Guard: Great in 7th, amazing in 8th. No longer are they anvils that can't hurt a fly - they are now anvils that can dish out the damage. Two ranks of attacking has boosted these guys. Don't underestimate WS5 S4 ASF reroll-failed-hits on I6 and L9, plus fear to boot. I sorely hope the rumors of plastic PG are true, for if they are, I'm buying a truckload of them. In my game I had 16 and a Prince: they rolled through a Spearmen unit, and when they were whittled down to 12 they still duked it out with 12 White Lions and 20 more Spearmen until the enemy Dragon came rolling around - again, my own mismanagement.

Swordmasters: If you couple SMs with Lore of Life, you have a powerhouse unit. T5/T7 Swordmasters... hoo boy. I should've brought more magic.

Silver Helms: I guess they're about the same as they were - poor Dragon Princes. Perhaps one advantage they have over DPs is their cost, which may allow you to field two ranks for flank disruption.

Repeater Bolt Throwers: I had four, and they really didn't do much. One wound on the Dragon, a couple scattered wounds here and there. I don't think they recovered their points cost. On the other hand, RBTs with Curse might be very useful.

And a note... the game ended in a solid victory for my opponent.

Liancour
25-07-2010, 19:04
3 games for now. One against dwarfs, two against Empire.
Each time my Sea Gard are decimated first turn by stone throwers (and I'm pretty happy each time not to play swordmasters).

I can't just handle this warmachines problems. They do too much damages in the first turn...

Von Wibble
25-07-2010, 19:10
I played my first 8th edition game yesterday, 2500 points, and it was High Elves versus High Elves so I got a handle on how HE runs from both sides of the table. Bear in mind this was pretty much my first Warhammer game since 6th edition (I played a grand total of four games in 7th).

Spearmen: Pretty good. I had two blocks of 25 each. One had a fairly epic battle against my opponent's Swordmasters that turned his way when he got some Life spells off (T7 SMs are not funny). The other got hit by a Dragon, so.... yea. I feel like if I'd used them properly they could've been great, but I'm still rusty.

Archers: I only have 10, and I had to use them to fill out my minimum core. They shot up my opponent's fast cav pretty easily. He brought an enormous block of something like 25 or 30 that were much less destructive than I initially envisioned. Their shots (and a unit of Shadow Warriors') were almost all directed at my 17-strong Swordmaster unit for the entirety of the game, and my SMs still made it to his lines with three.

Dragon Princes: No clue, I didn't deploy them properly so they never saw combat except with the Dragon. Their fate is obvious.

White Lions: My opponent had a unit of 12 or so that I avoided shooting at for obvious reasons. They fell hard to my Phoenix Guard without dealing too much damage in return, which leads me to...

Phoenix Guard: Great in 7th, amazing in 8th. No longer are they anvils that can't hurt a fly - they are now anvils that can dish out the damage. Two ranks of attacking has boosted these guys. Don't underestimate WS5 S4 ASF reroll-failed-hits on I6 and L9, plus fear to boot. I sorely hope the rumors of plastic PG are true, for if they are, I'm buying a truckload of them. In my game I had 16 and a Prince: they rolled through a Spearmen unit, and when they were whittled down to 12 they still duked it out with 12 White Lions and 20 more Spearmen until the enemy Dragon came rolling around - again, my own mismanagement.

Swordmasters: If you couple SMs with Lore of Life, you have a powerhouse unit. T5/T7 Swordmasters... hoo boy. I should've brought more magic.

Silver Helms: I guess they're about the same as they were - poor Dragon Princes. Perhaps one advantage they have over DPs is their cost, which may allow you to field two ranks for flank disruption.

Repeater Bolt Throwers: I had four, and they really didn't do much. One wound on the Dragon, a couple scattered wounds here and there. I don't think they recovered their points cost. On the other hand, RBTs with Curse might be very useful.

And a note... the game ended in a solid victory for my opponent.

To be fair, PG are the perfect counter to white lions so I wouldn't judge the lions too harshly.

Liancour - how many stone throwers exactly? Did you deploy in 2 ranks? Have you considered some protection (life magic, ironcurse icon for example).

Von Wibble
25-07-2010, 19:11
If you have mages with the Lore of Shadow you can improve your shooting by a lot.

Definately. That and the better lore bonus mean I will pick shadow over life for my HE - though ideally I want both!

Falkman
25-07-2010, 19:31
Definately. That and the better lore bonus mean I will pick shadow over life for my HE - though ideally I want both!
You think the Shadow attribute is better? :confused:
To me the Life attribute is miles ahead of the other Lore attributes, but to each their own I guess.

wilsongrahams
25-07-2010, 22:45
Some advice wanted concerning Chariots please. I'm not realy keen on White Lion Chariots due to the lions pulling them so I want Tiranoc Chariots only even if they aren't as cost effective overall etc. I simply like them. Now, with that said, and that they have to remain 1" apart from each other, how many do people find is a useful number in a game?

Options: 2 operating together, 3 operating together, or 4 in two pairs?

I have two now, plan on buying another tomorrow and maybe even buying two if I get a response before I go.

This is most likely for use in 3000+ pts games as I'm unlikely to play games below that very often so don't mind having the odd spare when I do play smaller games - it's about look as much as game play for me and I just love the new Chariot.

Desert Rain
25-07-2010, 22:57
I used 2 tiranocs in 7th most of the time, and I've never tried more than 1 in 8th. Before I loved them but now I'm not sure, they have lost their 18" charge range which was one of their biggest benefits. I will probably still take one or two depending on the size of the game since I simply find them to useful to leave behind, and my entire HE strategy includes them since I've always used one ever since I first started. So it would feel wrong not to have it. I'd never take more than 2 though unless it was a big game of like 4000 points or so. Maybe 3 in 3000 but for me at least that's pushing it.

wilsongrahams
25-07-2010, 23:09
I find myself with some points left over for Specials but not wanting to increase my other units so a Chariot would fill in the points nicely - and more fun than painting yet more spearmen!

I'm working towards having a useable (eg not loads of characters) 6000pts army after the new models in the 2nd wave are released so 3 chariots would be nice for the future - I also prefer to paint all of one type of unit together to avoid any inconsistencies. Will stop at the 3, thanks for the advice.

Liancour
26-07-2010, 01:04
Liancour - how many stone throwers exactly? Did you deploy in 2 ranks? Have you considered some protection (life magic, ironcurse icon for example).
Unfortunately I'm in a 4*5 configuration et I didn't take Ironcurse (and I don't put any heroes or lords in my Sea Guard).

Only one for the dwarves : one hit 19 dead.
Two for Empire (in fact one rocket launcher et one stone thrower) : on the last game 31 deads in the first turn. Fortunalely the two canons didn't do so much damage, and the Hellfire exploded on first shot.

salamander
26-07-2010, 19:32
Had my first 8th edition game against the Lizardmen today in a small game and learnt a few things from it.
First off it was my first time running Sea Gaurd instead of spears and archers and I must sat I was very impressed. Even against t4 Saurus they managed to pick a few off while advancing to deny a few ranks, and they did more for me than blocks of archers that I have gone with in previous games.
Secondly, Saurus are beasts in combat :skull: they chomped through one of my Sea Guard units without breaking a sweat and gave my unit of 15 Phoenix Gaurd a run for their money.
Pheonix Guard are awesome in 8th, they survived an onslaught of Saurus warriors and didn't have to much trouble wiping out a block of Temple Guard with his Slann in.
As it was only a 1500 point game I took Silver Helms instead of Dragon Princes!!! Big mistake, they got chewed up and spat out by his Saurus cavalry in 1 round of combat.
In the end I managed a very minor victory but that was only due to getting Dwellers beneath off in turn 6 that decimated a block of Saurus. All in all Lizardmen are very tough competition for us mere Elves in 8th edition and next time I face them I think it will be wise to include a couple of bolt throwers to kebab big Saurus blocks before they hit our lines.
Thats all for now, I will be coming up against Ogres next Monday so will post my findings on here once I've had a chance to mull them over.

Bloody Nunchucks
26-07-2010, 21:03
Lore of life is, in my opinion better than most of the others when your playing as HE, i like regrowing my SM's and healing my BSB and teclis as well.

PG seem like they are a better choice than WL in 8th, their ward save is really helpfull against warmachines. and if you decide to give them the razor standard (in a tailored list against calvary) they are a much better choice

i only invest in a unit of swordmasters usually, seeing as S3 bows can wipe them out i dont want to rely on them to win the cc part of my games

i would rather get another rank of elite troops or 10 spearmen than a RBT, just doesnt seem worth it now, maybe i dont play with thm right but they never seem to turn the tide or make their points back

puckus10
26-07-2010, 21:19
can a model fire a weapon and use magic in the same turn?

loveless
26-07-2010, 21:29
First off it was my first time running Sea Gaurd instead of spears and archers and I must sat I was very impressed. Even against t4 Saurus they managed to pick a few off while advancing to deny a few ranks, and they did more for me than blocks of archers that I have gone with in previous games.


I think that's the key point here. If you're used to using Archers, Sea Guard are probably going to rock your world. If you're used to use Spearmen, Sea Guard may still seem overpriced - it all depends on how much you value those advancing shots.

Thanks for the notes, sal.

Nocculum
26-07-2010, 21:34
I'm not too enamoured on Archmage love, and I'm new to starting High Elves (last played in 5th, a fond user of Belannaer).

So, I'm going to consider running as my main build:

Prince
Dragon Armour, Shield, Lance, Steed, Barding
Silver Wand, Radiant Gem of Hoeth, Talisman of Preservation

Noble
Battle Standard Bearer
Armour of Caledor, Dawnstone
Great Weapon

Mage
Level Two
Ring of Fury

I am considering another mage, with the Seerstaff, or a White Sword noble, but they're not really needed as the army has a strong LD, good magic base and the re-rolls from the BSB - I'd take High Magic on the Prince, and battle book lores with the mage/mages.

Thoughts?

HeroFox
26-07-2010, 21:44
Seerstaff > Ring of Fury on the Lv.2.

Nocculum
26-07-2010, 21:52
I was guessing as much, but as I'm going to be using offensive lores over the defensive Lore of Life and ilk, I figured the extra source of 2D6 STR4 that avoids miscasting to a degree would be a more stable and damaging choice.

I'm thinking Lore of Light or Death for the mage mind.

Monodominant
26-07-2010, 21:57
As far as the issue with big units of spears/sea guard... have you consider deploying them in 2 lines for the first round until the enemy is close enough and then reforming?

Personally I ran 2 units of 24 LSG... for round 1-2 and maybe even 3 depending on the opponent they are in a long line of 12... that way they keep shooting without even needing volley... 1 turn before the opponent is close enough they enter their stocky 6 x 4 formation... that means they get to still fire 18 shots or if they get charged they strike with a lovely 24 attacks...

Col. Tartleton
26-07-2010, 22:51
Yeah I think 2 to 3 blocks of 24 lothern sea guard with full command is the core of every infantry based army. They beat the crap out of archers at combat and they can counterattack with bows against units that refuse to charge into 25 attacks.

With 24 spearmen units that can shoot will try to sit back and shoot. With 24 Archers units will try to close and rip them apart. Seaguard can rock both. The ASF and high initiative means they'll cut through anything hordey thanks to rerolls and going first. Plus their bows will knock off a few guys before the combat.

72 LSG will theoretically get off 54 shots right off.

High Loremaster
26-07-2010, 22:55
Seaguard are looking mighty nice for 8th. Finally, bows get the attention they needed.

I've got something like 50+ Spearmen, might proxy them as Seaguard (I'm sure no one would care, they're similar enough) and see how two blocks of 25 work. Then for fun I might try a Horde unit :P

Dragon Prince of Caledor
26-07-2010, 22:55
I haven't played warhammer in like six months but these changes seem rather substantial :S maybe too much change? When will all this "come into play" for lack of a better phrase.

Nocculum
26-07-2010, 23:27
About 12 days ago?

puckus10
26-07-2010, 23:50
can a model fire a weapon and use magic in the same turn?

Falkman
27-07-2010, 00:28
can a model fire a weapon and use magic in the same turn?
Yes. (message too short)

CmdrLaw
27-07-2010, 02:21
Right new army list based on some feedback:


Archmage lvl 4 345pts Annulian Crystal, Folariath's Robe

Mage lvl 115pts Jewel of the Dusk

Korhil 140pts

Noble 168pts Great Weapon, Battle Standard Bearer, Armour of Caledor, Guardian Phoenix

Lothern Sea Guard x25 360pts FC, Shields, Banner of Eternal Flame - Mage and BSB here.

Spearmen x20 205pts FC

Phoenix Guard x16, 320pts FC, Banner of Sorcery - Archmage and Korhil here

Dragon Princes x6, 245 pts FC, 1 Banner of Ellyrion

Repeater Bolt Thrower 100 pts

1998

Probably going life with lvl 4 and Beast with lvl 1 and just throwing the beast signature spell out every turn for the +1S +1T, got an extra D3+1 PD and the annulian crystal as well so hoping to dominate the magic phase. A small amount of shooting but will hopefully be mobile enough to keep the fight on my terms.

HeroFox
27-07-2010, 03:47
-1 RBt for 2x Great Eagles.

maricus
27-07-2010, 06:01
I haven't played since 4th ed and I'm really excited about 8th. This thread has been awesome for catching me up to speed. I've always been a big fan of big units. I just wish GW would have adjusted our points a little with the errata.

A question for all the RBT haters: How are we going to deal with things like the hydra, giants, etc? At 100 pts. I'm really on the fence (I have 8 of these painted, LOL. Ahh the good old days.)

Kirby
27-07-2010, 06:18
I'm with you on the RBTs maricus and at least the FAQ made is so they could shoot with just a single crew. I know they're not great and Eagles/Reavers can knock out Warmachines early on too but their ability to thin down hordes so Chariots + DP/SHelms can break units I think will work nicely.

Punjoke
27-07-2010, 08:56
So one of my regular opponents just put together a dwarf army, and I've never had to fight anything like it before. In our first game he completely tore me a new one (I only won a single combat in the entire game) so I figured I'd get some advice.

How many eagles are you guys taking to get rid of war machines? I don't have very many, and I was only able to kill one war machine before they were gone. Even spending a turn without anything to shoot at, his organ gun still managed to blow two ranks out of each of my spearman blocks. I felt that maybe if I'd had six eagles I might have stood a better chance; does this seem excessive?

Against my better judgement I took Shadow Warriors (I really needed to deal with those war machines and I knew the eagles wouldn't be able to do it alone,) but they only managed to kill a single cannon, and it took them two turns to do it.

CmdrLaw
27-07-2010, 09:03
-1 RBt for 2x Great Eagles.

Unfortunately I have 2 RBT's from the battalion set and no eagles...and eagles are expensive so will be using the RBT until I can get round to getting some.

Punjoke
27-07-2010, 09:05
The organ guns are the real problem. I couldn't shoot them thanks to their toughness and wounds, and he kept enough guys packed around them that I couldn't get to the guns without going through them - which I couldn't do as they were stubborn. The fact that he could just shoot past his army, even into woods, and still kill 9+ guys a shot (happened twice) was very frustrating. I ended up having to just charge my cavalry in because they were about to be shot to pieces, and as usual they just bounced right off of his stubborn blocks.

I don't really want to take the Book of Hoeth, as I've never really liked the IF-spam strategy, but after seeing him end most turns with more dispel dice than I had power dice, I've come to the unfortunate conclusion that I don't have a choice.

Edit - I also use Korhil, as my army is White Lion themed. He's usually a real beast, but the dwarf guy was using the no-killing-blow rune and my characters ended up getting chopped to pieces.

Desert Rain
27-07-2010, 09:49
A question for all the RBT haters: How are we going to deal with things like the hydra, giants, etc? At 100 pts. I'm really on the fence (I have 8 of these painted, LOL. Ahh the good old days.)
Magic is usually the answer for everything that we can't easily deal with using our normal units. Pit of Shades or Purple Sun are pretty good at killing a hydra, and most other large monsters as well.

As are some spells from Lore of Fire due to the flaming attacks removing the Hydra's ward save.

A unit of White Lions with the banner that gives you flaming attacks should kill of a Hydra pretty reliably as well.

I still use RBTs though since they are still pretty useful as a back up to the magic phase. You just need to deploy them far away from enemy shooters so that they can't reach you, so utilise the 48" range of the RBT as much as you can.

Hashulaman
27-07-2010, 09:53
On the subject of LSG, I played a 2250 HE army for the first time in ages. I had teclis, Caradryan, BSB(you don't even need a magical standard as a regular BS can be enough, plus its better to give him magic items to prolong his survival, such as a ward save, instead of the D6 to combat res banner which is pretty much nerfed now its soo easy to get stubborn now.), 51 Sea Guard (the 51st brought me a point over the required 25%), 2x10 Swordmasters, 20 Phoenix Guard and 2 bolt throwers.

The sea guard did really well I must say, better than spearmen. Volley to soften up an enemy unit you know will charge you before you unlease 5 ranks worth of ASF attacks. Not too shabby, my question now is do i dump the bolt throwers for more special or more sea guard? Curse of Arrow Attraction would go a long way with sea guard, moreso with them than RBT in my opinion with the new shooting rules. Now before anyone says to take Eagles I do not have Great eagles as I do not trust them at all. Plus assembling them is a pain.

CmdrLaw
27-07-2010, 10:27
The sea guard did really well I must say, better than spearmen. Volley to soften up an enemy unit you know will charge you before you unlease 5 ranks worth of ASF attacks.

I take it your opponent had no stone throwers then? a block of 50 LSG being hit by a stone thrower.....arrrgggghh the pain.

GenerationTerrorist
27-07-2010, 11:01
What are people's opinions on White Lions (specifically, in Horde formation!) in 8th Edition?

I'm thinking of a unit of 28, with FC (Banner of Eternal Flame), led by a Prince with the Crown of Command and a Mage with the 2+ Ward against Magic cloak (Loremasters?)....

They could dish out a fair bit of punishment, be Stubborn on Ld10 and have magical/flaming attacks.

Any thoughts?

CmdrLaw
27-07-2010, 11:11
White Lions are awesome, not sure about in horde though. Think all HE units are too expensive to horde.

And aren't White Lions already stubborn though? No need for crown of command.

Von Wibble
27-07-2010, 13:59
You think the Shadow attribute is better? :confused:
To me the Life attribute is miles ahead of the other Lore attributes, but to each their own I guess.

I'd say life is better if you like your dragons or chariots (and to be fair I fit into the latter catagory). High elf characters to my mind tend to be dead or alive so healing wounds is a rarity.

Shadow otoh is great to ensure all your key characters get into the right combats. The signature spell is so cheap that its very rare that the enemy won't let it through (I tend to throw 1 dice at it after my mage has cast all the other spells he wants to) and getting commanders into combat instead of mages is very useful. In my last game I had my shadow archmage on the ede of a unit in combat (not in contact himself), and was able to switch him with my BSB, who had become isolated frmo the main lines through a successful pursuit. I then used make way to get the bsb fighting.

Generationterrorist - why on earth would you place the crown of command in white lions, who are already stubborn Ld10 when led by a prince? Personally I prefer a unit of 15-18 not in horde formation, with banner of discipline for stubborn 9 with no requirement for a character. Imo hordes are just too expensive an option for high elves, though in games upwards of 4000 points they become an option.

maricus - as someone who almost never uses rbts (I would start to if they were around the 60 point mark) here are my options for removing big monsters

1) White lions or swordmasters

2) Banner of eternal flame - either on one of the units above or on Lsg/archers

3) Magic. Loads of options here.

Even in a worst case scenario, monsters generally aren't too much of a worry. They usually strike after you get to go, (exception HPA) so sheer weight of attacks will cause wounds on pretty much anything first.

Also, with +1 to hit gone, the rbt isn't the best of options anyway. Against a lot of monsters you average a wound a turn. With monsters typically charging on turn 2 that just isn't good enough. Give me an extra rank of troops or a chariot any day.

CmdrLaw
27-07-2010, 15:17
My main use for RBT's will likely be for taking out small but very annoying units such as light cavalry/jezzails/fanatics.

But I would much prefer 2 giant eagles as Herofox suggested.

Trains_Get_Robbed
27-07-2010, 17:39
I got one grudge match left with L.M player in my group and after last games gripping close victory I want to trypout a different type of army. When you take a Lord with the Bow of the Seafarer, what is his usual kit? I would like to use ellyrion reavers, and or shadow warriors in this next game as my plan consists of bringing like 4 eagles and 4 RBTs, both magical bows, and a unit of LSG, (maybe archers), things none of my opponets have ever seen before.

Desert Rain
27-07-2010, 17:49
For a sea farer lord I'd probably take him on an eagle for mobility and dragon armour and an enchanted shield for protection. Finally a great weapon for some CC hitting power if he somehow became involved in a melee. Perhaps you could give him some sort of ward save or something for the remaining 30 points of magical items.

Trains_Get_Robbed
27-07-2010, 20:36
I planned on taking him on an eagle just didn't know if Shadow Warrior crew would be better if in the Shadow warrior crew he'd have SoM, E.S and ToP if in the shadow crew. On eagle I'm liking D.A.C, but if I give him that I can't really get a ward and vice versa.

salamander
29-07-2010, 22:01
Just finished a game against Ogres and I am suprised how well we match up against them.

First turn saw both of us moving into posistion, both magic phases saw all attempted spells dispelled and my shooting only saw 5 Gnoblars bite the dust.

Start of turn 2 was when the game really got going, he charged one of his leadbelcher units into my unit of 10 Swordmasters and his Gnoblars into one of my Sea Guard units, his other leadbelchers killed my lion chariot in a hail of shrapnel but in doing so 2 of the 3 missfired and suffered 11 hits which left 1 very confused Ogre wondering where all his mates had gone!!! Two of my SM's died to impact hits but the remaing SM's wiped them out with ease. My Sea Guard beat the Gnoblars and chased them down and rolled enough to follow up into the Irongut unit with his Slaughtermaster in.

Start of my turn 2 was about getting my units into position. I killed 2 Bulls with my bolt throwers. I managed to cast Mindrazor with IF/miscast on my Sea Guard fighting the Ironguts, only 2 of my Pheonix Guard died due to the miscast. My combat against the Ironguts was immense, elves dishing out 21 re-rollable strength 8 attacks is just plain awesome, I ended up winning combat by 7 but that was only because he rolled 5 1's to wound!!!!! He rolled low to flee and I ran them down.

His turn 3 saw him charge both his bull units into both my Sea Guard units and he buffed his units strength and toughnes respectivley in the magic phase. My mindrazor Sea Guard unit wiped out the Bulls they were fighting and my other SG unit lost combat but held. In my magic phase I reduced his last Bull unit to toughness 1 with Withering which led to me beating them in combat and running them down. After that the game was pretty much over.

I was suprised with the ease of victory but I must admit the dice gods were on my side. Also Mindrazor is awsome for Elves against armies like Ogres and managing to hex their strength and toughness was invaluble. Bolt throwers shouldn't be under estimated against multi wound opponents and they helped pick of ranks which is helpfull in denying the strength bonus for the bull charge.

All in all after playing two games against Lizards and Ogres I think that using magic in combination with ASF and re-rolls plus our ability to fight with the extra ranks makes us a match for any army. Saying that though if we get shut down in the magic phase then it can become a struggle.

Temakador
29-07-2010, 23:33
ok i have been reading many HE tactics posts and people seem to be saying that in blocks of 14+ the only special that you should take is PG and WL but not SM? now why is this? i mean no they dont live like PG but they die in combat due to step up just like WL and they do way more damage on non-elite infantry, and against elites like warriors of chaos they kill roufly the same, so why are SM the worse choise to take?

Desert Rain
29-07-2010, 23:52
Swordmasters are very good at killing enemy infantry, even better than they were before. Nowadays people take White Lions instead because the benefited more from supporting attacks than swordmasters did, and because they are stubborn and have a 3+ save against shooting.

They work best in smaller units on the flank, few flanking units are wiling to engage 22 or so attacks hitting on 3s, with re-rolls and wounding on 2s most of the time.

Swordmasters also have poor synergy with a list based on LSG as the LSG are a defensive unit, which works good with the all arounders of the white lions or the defensive phoenix guards. Swordmasters on the other hand are an offensive units which works better in lists that use spears and archers as core.

Personally I've always liked Swordmasters the most of all our infantry units and I will continue to use them, especially now that they are getting gorgeous new models. By deploying a character with the unit you can minimize their weakness to ranged attacks with, for example, Loremaster's Cloak or Sacred Insence.

Marwynn
30-07-2010, 05:36
ok i have been reading many HE tactics posts and people seem to be saying that in blocks of 14+ the only special that you should take is PG and WL but not SM? now why is this? i mean no they dont live like PG but they die in combat due to step up just like WL and they do way more damage on non-elite infantry, and against elites like warriors of chaos they kill roufly the same, so why are SM the worse choise to take?

It's not that SMs are the worst choice to take, it's just that the other two Elite units gained so much more in 8th.

Consider the Phoenix Guard who have a 4+ Ward Save and can now attack in two ranks. Or the Stubborn White Lions in 2 ranks as well who are 3+ against shooting.

In 8th Ed it doesn't matter how many you kill, they'll get to strike back at you eventually so you can still lose your units. The Phoenix Guard are sturdy, the White Lions are stubborn, and the Sword Masters have no defense against even cheap horde units.

This hasn't really changed much. In 7th, SMs were deployed 7-wide and often just one rank. They were meant to simply slaughter or slam into a flank.

They're really not that bad. But the other two are just got better at what the SMs were good at.

CmdrLaw
30-07-2010, 09:35
Swordmasters also have poor synergy with a list based on LSG as the LSG are a defensive unit, which works good with the all arounders of the white lions or the defensive phoenix guards. Swordmasters on the other hand are an offensive units which works better in lists that use spears and archers as core.

I am thinking of being quite offensive with my LSG, trying to keep the whole army moving and engaging on my terms and quickly hacking down bigger inferior units....hopefully.

Swordmasters do still have thier place, but the main reason for using them less in this edition is that going first and killing lots is no longer a defence for our squishy T3 5+ SM's. If your going all out offensive you need alot of troops to soak the return attacks and with SM's they are just too expensive.

Of course SM's still put fear of god into opponents so can make good diversions.

salamander
30-07-2010, 14:46
I've been running my SM's in units of ten to support my bigger blocks of infantry, they make a right mess once you slam them into the flank you have already engaged with your LSG of PG

wilsongrahams
30-07-2010, 14:46
Of course SM's still put fear of god into opponents so can make good diversions.

Exactly this - out of game psychology is why I will still be using these in my army. Probably 20 and a Noble still, whilst my Prince is being moved to Phoenix Guard with Caradryan as he benefits from their ward saves from shooting until the unit is small.

My 7th ed opponents learned to fear my SM so they still treat them as a priority target, and so my next games will use this to my advantage I hope, and maybe I'll then win an 8th ed game!

I play 3000pt games now so can easily afford 330pts on a diversionary unit that may just slaughter lots. I find that a unit of 10 always gets shot up too much to still be effective hence the 20.

Bloody Nunchucks
30-07-2010, 16:49
i love playing swordmasters, if i can get them into combat before getting shot up i just like watching my opponenets face as i hit in 3's and reroll misses then usually wound on a 3 and if i have the razor standard thats always a nasty surprise, expesially against calvary. i like taking blocks of PG and LSG with SM flanking and supporting in units of 15, 2 ranks of 7 with a champ is 22 attacks what unit can not take massive causualties from that?

plus, your opponents will usually plan their strategy around avoiding the SM or using all their shooting targeting them, nice diversion, its even better when you use lore of life on them

Trains_Get_Robbed
31-07-2010, 07:20
Your still paying 15 points for a model that isn't surviving past one full round of combat though. In addition one is mostly hitting on 3's with the P.G and the W.L anyways so hitting with 3's isn't a big deal, besides you get rerolls with the other troops also. I don't see S.M as a viable unit anymore unless in 3,000 point games or higher. I wouldn't even dare to take seven anymore as true line of sight is just goin to eat up that 105 points you paid for and hand it to the enemy: s3 troop + bows = dead S.M. :( Target eliminated next unit.

HeroFox
31-07-2010, 09:04
For SM, maybe 12 w/ Musician is a good number to run. 6x2 formation, gogogo!

wamphyri101
31-07-2010, 10:19
Was having random thoughts last night and has anyone tried either the reaver bow or bow of the seafarer in a unit with the banner of eternal flame?

We coudl then have 3 str 5 magical flaming attacks, or a flaming bolt thrower.

WOuld be good vs things like Hydra's/ Abominations/ Treemen, tree kin, mummies, Etheral etc etc

noT_Him
31-07-2010, 11:58
Well after 2 games aginst my regular opponents high elves i have few remarks.

1. Smaller units in bigger numbers are your friend. My buddy took large units o LSG ( 35 man per unit ) and maybe aginst some other army it would do but aginst empire mortars and rockets its just weak. On the other hand small units ( he took 3 units of 10 swordmasters ) got shoot to pices.

2. Magic is grosly overated - We play our games 3500 pts. In the new ed we mingled with the % to get most fun ( we are not hardcore tournament players so we always fallow the most important rule - do everything we can to make the game more enjoyable ) We concluded that 750 pts max in heros 750 max in lord 750 min in core 1500 max in special and 500 max in rare is pretty good option to modify the official % of GW ( 500 pts for rare to avoid 2 stanks and 3 hydras and to take more troops ). In 3500 game he had Archmage and 2 lvl mages - the first turn went away as he miscasted on 4 dices ( got spell of but it was just draw dd dice spell so i wasnt hurt by it ) and then in the second we rolled 2 and 2 on winds of magic dice he rolled 1 for the banner and had mighty 5 dices ( I had the same from archlector and another warrior priest ). In turn 3 the shooting ended and CC took place so mages got killed. The main problem with HE magic is that you dont have spots to put your mages in after the fighting starts - empire , skaven , beastman - hell even chaos have some spare units that are keapt in reserve - the cost of high elve units forces you to hide your mages in them and thous when the fighting starts all I have to do is to direct attacks ( not chalange - just direct attacks ) and the mage goes down ...

All in all i thought that HE are going to be pretty scary now thanks to BoH and ASF beeing hatred on steroids but it seams that now you are just perfectly balanced army that can win but needs good tactical player and solid list

Cheers

CmdrLaw
31-07-2010, 12:05
In turn 3 the shooting ended and CC took place so mages got killed. The main problem with HE magic is that you dont have spots to put your mages in after the fighting starts - empire , skaven , beastman - hell even chaos have some spare units that are keapt in reserve - the cost of high elve units forces you to hide your mages in them and thous when the fighting starts all I have to do is to direct attacks ( not chalange - just direct attacks ) and the mage goes down ...


Mage in a unit with Forlaiths robe....not a problem.

kraken
31-07-2010, 13:43
So Bolt throwers and eagles suck now ......... especially miffed about the bolt throwers

wilsongrahams
31-07-2010, 15:24
Bolt Throwers don't exactly suck - they're as offensive as before, but have effectively lost a wound. Divide your battery into opposite sides of the board or leave some defensive unit such as 10x archers close by that can shoot all game but then get in the way to buy time if anything charges down the flank at them.

Sticking your BT's at opposite sides also means you get to shoot into the flank of a unit threatening the other one.

Liancour
31-07-2010, 15:33
If you think about fire power, yes both are weak. But keep in mind that there could be different goal now.

Great Eagles are still very useful. To get opponent war machines, for example. And as you can play a lot of them it could be quickly a great source of inconvenience for your opponent.

Von Wibble
31-07-2010, 15:39
Bolt Throwers don't exactly suck - they're as offensive as before, .

And therefore not much harder hitting than a goblin bolt thrower for nearly 3 times the price and 1 less wound.

Also the flank fire thing - usually a canny opponent can block LOS with detachment style units making such shots -2 to hit.

Eagles have a use in taknig out war machines, albeit a limited one - since I face Chaos and VC regularly I can't see the birds featuring too much in my army. Imo their rules along with those for fast cavalry in general need a rewrite.

Desert Rain
31-07-2010, 15:43
I have used RBTs in my latest games and they are still very useful. I deploy them in the corners of my deployment zone, one in each, and try to stay as far back as possible to take advantage of their 48" range so that most enemies can't shoot at them. I also find that most people tend to shoot at my infantry units rather than the RBTs.

Von Wibble
31-07-2010, 15:48
Yes, I think that's the most sensible way to deploy them. But I didn't use them before 8th edition and losing a wound means I'm even less likely to now.

I'd rather have an extra unit of dragon princes.

wamphyri101
31-07-2010, 16:47
I find eagles are great for mage assisination. Most wizards will only have a 4+ ward max. 2 great eagle vs 1 mage in a unit (remember they are I5) give you a very good chance.

Obviously throwing them at a vampire lord wouldnt work

brendino
31-07-2010, 17:52
thats a good point wamphyri, i must get myself some eagles. there is no reason not to have any now. My high elf army is from 6th ed so I loaded on bolt throwers for all my rare choices, but now with no slots, and the effectiveness of enemy war machines, and the low effectiveness of our own warmachines, they seem to be the way to do it.

wilsongrahams
31-07-2010, 18:40
And therefore not much harder hitting than a goblin bolt thrower for nearly 3 times the price and 1 less wound.

Also the flank fire thing - usually a canny opponent can block LOS with detachment style units making such shots -2 to hit.

Eagles have a use in taknig out war machines, albeit a limited one - since I face Chaos and VC regularly I can't see the birds featuring too much in my army. Imo their rules along with those for fast cavalry in general need a rewrite.

The Repeater shots option and the high BS of crew makes up for some of the cot I think, but otherwise we just have to suck it up. Slightly better WS will help in Combat if charged but this is neglible against a whole enemy unit.

People seem to forget that now true line of sight is used, sticking your unit on a hill can totally ignore some blocking units as you use what is actually in the way and so a hill in each corner with a bolt thrower on each is a good set-up. Also if more than one unit has broken through your flank unhindered to attack your support then you have failed badly in your battle plan I think!

I've yet to use Great Eagles as on paper they just seem so weak for going off on their own - I have two awaiting construction, but they keep getting shoved to the back of the queue for this reason - I find 6 Shadow Warriors and a Noble scouting with them tends to make a good anti-war machine unit that can at least fend for itself until help arrives if they do get into trouble.

wamphyri101
31-07-2010, 19:36
Well I have used 4 of them in 2 games now.

1st vs Beastmen all lived. They took down 2 units of ungors and a lvl 2 shaman as well as aiding in a few combats.
TO be honest there wasnt much for them to do as he had BIG units

2nd was VS Empire

1 took out a Mortar and another took out a cannon and due to a flank charge took out a unit of 12 crossbowmen.

1 died turn 2 from pistoliers and another failed charged the same mortar that died and was cut down by very lucky swordmen detachment. I had some damn bad luck with combat rolls and charge rolls with them that caused them all to die in the end

In that game they got there points pack but they did show me 2 things:

1: The enemy will try and take them down to save there warmachines so while they are being shot 1 at a time your main units are heading closer.

2: They can be great for deployement. Yes I lose the +1 but its great fun to deploy those eagles 1 at a time while he has to set up more useful troops. This means my white lion block, chariots and Dragon princes can pretty much choose there targets.

Had 2 masacare wins and 1 draw (by 10 points!)

Desert Rain
31-07-2010, 20:49
I had a game against Wood Elves today, and a battle report can be found Here (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4874731#post4874731)

maricus
02-08-2010, 06:53
Great advise on the RBT's and eagles. I have 3 eagles painted already and I'm going to pick up another. Their easy to paint too.

Something I don't have is chariots. What does everyone think about them? What about nobles/mages on chariots/eagles? I picked up the BSB kit the other day and a hero on an eagle with a big ass axe would look good.

Gacktite
02-08-2010, 10:15
Just played a game against vampires; learned a few things.

I had 2 mages, one with the seerstaff, one lvl. 2 with the annulian crystal, an archmage with the staff that gives +1 to casting, 25 spearmen with a lion standard, 15 archers, and 2 RBTs. 1250 points, small i know, but fun.

A level one mage with the seerstaff of saphery and the lore of beasts is the best 130 points I ever spent. He turned into a black hydra on turn one and killed all the graveguard and a couple dire wolves.

Annulian crystal is amazing. Always take one. Though, in this game, jewel of the dusk might have been better.

+5 to all dispel attempts is nice. Especially against vampires; no more skellies for you!

Magic didn't really go my way in terms of power/dispel dice ratios, but when it did, 3d6 s4 hits from banishment and dwellers below worked out nicely.

Spearmen are amazing. They strike first, re-roll to hit, and my unit of 25 fought in 3 ranks on the charge, and 4 in subsequent rounds. Don't forget about remains in play spells, especially curse of ages.

Archers performed well, didn't lose a single model or any bolt throwers in the game.

I'm sure the 200 points of bolt throwers would've been better spent on dragon princes or swordmasters, but they weren't assembled. The RBTs killed a lot of dire wolves and a lot of skeletons, though not 200 points worth.

If anyone complains when they are using high elves, they need to be smacked. Arguably the best army. Kind of like orks in 40k; you just can't beat them.

One more thing, magic, magic magic!

Edit: Oh, yeah, the outcome of the game. Despite having a worse army than most people would pick (2 bolt throwers instead of whatever) I still wiped out the vampires by turn 6.

CmdrLaw
02-08-2010, 11:12
A level one mage with the seerstaff of saphery and the lore of beasts is the best 130 points I ever spent. He turned into a black hydra on turn one and killed all the graveguard and a couple dire wolves.

Did your opponent forget to dispel this or something? Why I have not been too fussed with the spell. Especially the lower caster level.

"Aha a big hydra!"
"Meh, your dispelling most of my stuff anyway may as well throw 6 dice to turn your mage back into something squishy" can't miscast a dispel.

fluffstalker
02-08-2010, 14:24
Thoughts on LSG vs. Archers/Spearmen vs. just Spearmen for 2k and 2.5k level games? LSG give me decent flexibility but I'm thinking of putting most of my points into the elite infantry and use cheap core as support, so spearmen might be better...just don't want to rush out and buy stuff I may not use.

Desert Rain
02-08-2010, 14:31
I run one of each at 2000 to 2250 points and it works great. 23 spearmen with my BSB along with a 10 man archer unit and 14 LSG with my Archmage. Perhaps not the most powerful combination there is but I find it to be quite effective. At 2500 points I'd boost the Sea Guards to 23 models strong.

CmdrLaw
02-08-2010, 14:43
Thoughts on LSG vs. Archers/Spearmen vs. just Spearmen for 2k and 2.5k level games? LSG give me decent flexibility but I'm thinking of putting most of my points into the elite infantry and use cheap core as support, so spearmen might be better...just don't want to rush out and buy stuff I may not use.

If your looking for min core for 2k. 2x 25 Spear blocks with FC is exactly 500pts. Can't get much more minimum than that.

High Matthew
02-08-2010, 19:56
I may think that haing a unit of 30 Archers in 3 ranks is better than 30 LSG as if you put them in horde formation still all of the archers attack and the spears are there just if you want to make a unit of 4 or more ranks

High Matthew
02-08-2010, 19:57
and the archers still work with as part of my plan with mindrazor

also do lore attributes work against/at a unit equipped with Banner of the World Dragon ?

(Edited...)

Desert Rain
02-08-2010, 20:39
No spells works on units with banner of the world dragon. Lore attributes might still affect them though, such as Smoke & Mirrors from lore of shadows.

Gacktite
02-08-2010, 22:21
Did your opponent forget to dispel this or something? Why I have not been too fussed with the spell. Especially the lower caster level.

"Aha a big hydra!"
"Meh, your dispelling most of my stuff anyway may as well throw 6 dice to turn your mage back into something squishy" can't miscast a dispel.


Well, he used one of his magic phases to try to dispel it with 6 dice but failed miserably. Vampires need their spells, though. I had low power dice the turn I used it, but otherwise I would've gone for the 20+.





Spearmen>Seaguard in my opinion. They both make for very good defensive units, but I'd rather have more points for swordmasters.

Desert Rain
03-08-2010, 23:18
GW has posted a new Magic Tactica (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?catId=&categoryId=&section=&pIndex=0&aId=10500174a&start=1) on their website, I haven't read it myself yet but perhaps it contains some advice that might be useful.

b4z
04-08-2010, 01:18
Hi, i have recently decided to get into Fantasy, and from my experience on the 40K part of Warseer, the tactica thread is where the most wise and experienced players read/reply.. So i want to know what is the best things to buy when starting out. I realise and have read all the rumours about the Island of Blood [Sea Guard, Sword Masters, Elyrion Reavers] and the 'Booster' Battalion [White Lions, Phoenix Guard etc.] plastics after that, but are there any 'safe' buys that won't be re-done, so far i only have bought 16 spearmen, as i figured from the rumours they wont be getting re-done anytime soon, any help would be appreciated, i like to play hard lists, and i dont want to waste money on redundant [no good in game] models unncessarily, also i dont want to waste money on model lines which are likely to be updated, as above. thanks alot for any help

Thoras
04-08-2010, 07:53
Hi, i have recently decided to get into Fantasy, and from my experience on the 40K part of Warseer, the tactica thread is where the most wise and experienced players read/reply.. So i want to know what is the best things to buy when starting out. I realise and have read all the rumours about the Island of Blood [Sea Guard, Sword Masters, Elyrion Reavers] and the 'Booster' Battalion [White Lions, Phoenix Guard etc.] plastics after that, but are there any 'safe' buys that won't be re-done, so far i only have bought 16 spearmen, as i figured from the rumours they wont be getting re-done anytime soon, any help would be appreciated, i like to play hard lists, and i dont want to waste money on redundant [no good in game] models unncessarily, also i dont want to waste money on model lines which are likely to be updated, as above. thanks alot for any help

100% (or as close as) that wont be re-done soon (soon being by the end of the year but likely longer)

Plastic Prince/Arch Mage/Dragon Mage on Dragon Kit
White Lion/Tiranoc Chariot kit
Mage/Arch Mage on foot and mounted kit
Prince/noble on foot and mounted kit
Korhil
Caradryan
Eagle Claw bolt thrower kit

Honestly other than that i would like (read hope) that everything else is due a change, even (as unlikely as it is) Alith Anar and the shadow warriors that came along with the last army book.

Von Wibble
04-08-2010, 18:36
I very much doubt spearmen and archers will be redone for a long time.

Also the "booster" batallion box is apparently just a repackaging of the current one, with the silver helms being replaced with an extra 4 spearmen and archers, plus a chariot.

Tbh, with high elves getting pretty much everything in the army in plastic apart from shadow warriors and eagles (and shadow warriors are a relativelt recent release), and several othe armies really being more deserving of a new book now, I would be very surprised to see any more plastic releases in the near future.

Desert Rain
04-08-2010, 21:55
I guess we won't be seeing plastic spears and archers, and possibly silver helms, until we get a new book. Which will most likely take a while.

About the GW magic tactica, it doesn't really cover anything that hasn't already been discussed in this thread or in others on the forum. It is a pretty good summary of what you can do with the different lores, so it's a good read for beginners.

Allonairre
05-08-2010, 03:28
Although this is off topic, to me the reaver mounts look more like silver helm horses, as they are barded, so either GW is taking Reavers in a different direction or Silver Helms are getting redone as well. As well as probably redoing the mounts for Dragon Princes if not the Riders.