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cyberspite
06-08-2010, 02:19
A quick question for any high elf generals out there, what do you think of running a big unit of silver helms, like 12 or so? With supporting attacks they should still hit pretty hard, especially in a flank. I know dragon princes are better, but unfortunately I don't own 12 of them, and you don't see many silver helms.

Casshole
06-08-2010, 04:54
I could see a big unit of silver helms, and the silverhelms wont lose efficency in CC due to supporting attacks.

They won't be much cheaper than a similarly sized DP unit and cant take a magic banner.

They arent a terrible choice anymore, but they arent the best.

But like you said noone takes the 'Helms and thats a damn good argument to me. :-)

The_Varangian
06-08-2010, 09:20
on the subject of silver helms and dragon princes, wasn't there something about a combined plastic kit going arround?

also, a friend of mine uses carradryan in white lions and korhil in pheonix guard- the special rule sharing thing makes this work well, or so it seems...

Desert Rain
09-08-2010, 10:58
The combined kit turned out the be the noble/prince kit that someone misinterpreted.
---

Unless you are going for the most competitive lists you can build silver helms are an OK choice. They aren't as good as DPs but they should manage just fine. As long as you don't expect them to take down big blocks of infantry with one charge.

Bolter Bait
09-08-2010, 16:34
on the subject of silver helms and dragon princes, wasn't there something about a combined plastic kit going arround?

also, a friend of mine uses carradryan in white lions and korhil in pheonix guard- the special rule sharing thing makes this work well, or so it seems...The PG benefit much more from Korhil's Stubborn leadership and his four WS6 S6 attacks add the punch they need to do more than just wall. WLs already are Stubborn and hit nearly as hard as Korhil, so Caradryan's Fear, 4+ MR save, and the Phoenix Blade for it's Regen-negation and multi-wounds benefits the WLs much more, especially if they're hunting monsters like the HPA.

Until GW makes a rule where special characters can only go in units that they're associated with ala Phoenix Lords in 40k, Korhil will always march with PG and Caradryan will always bump elbows with WL, if only for their rule synergy.

Bloody Nunchucks
09-08-2010, 19:01
i agree with bolter bait

wilsongrahams
09-08-2010, 20:37
Nah you're just looking for the advantages there, where's the narative behind your army?

My characters will stay just where they're supposed to be even if I lose more!

Now, sticking my Prince in White Lions, BSB in Phoenix Guard and Mage in Lothern Sea Guard is my way around having some tactical use whilst still having a narrative.

I suspect many will disagree on principal here, and I'm not saying you're wrong, just I like to find a benefit in the rules that doesn't clash with my sense of idealism!

Malorian
09-08-2010, 21:24
I suspect many will disagree on principal here, and I'm not saying you're wrong, just I like to find a benefit in the rules that doesn't clash with my sense of idealism!

Spoken like a true high elve ;)

Compel
10-08-2010, 02:04
So, I'm thinking of picking up high elves again now and have been busy scrubbing paint off my 5th edition army. Pretty much I've got 20 armoured archers, 32 spears, 3 foot heroes, 12 swordmasters with command, 2 foot mages, 6 silver helms, a couple of mounted General type models and a handful of ellyrian reavers. Oh, and 2 bolt throwers.

I'm thinking of starting to expand with the Dragon kit and a battalion box, leading to Island of Blood when it comes out. This of course ends up giving me 3 bolt throwers. D'oh.

I still haven't worked my way through the tomb that is the new rule book yet, but I'm thinking along the lines of a Dragon Mage, I've not seen them mentioned much at all on the thread.

I'm kind of thinking along the lines of a block of 28 and one of 24 for the spearmen with a couple of flanking Swordmasters.

I'm kicking myself now that the White Lions are so good - I ended up trading them away for some guardsmen ages ago, so I'm not buying them until they come out in plastic purely by principal.

so, is 2 spear units, 2 swordmaster units, 2 silver helm units, a dragon mage and assorted characters/support actually vaguely playable? My local club isn't exactly hardcore tournament based (I think it's in the club rules that any tournaments must not be played while sober), but I'm also not wanting to start heading down completely the wrong path.

Is it essential now to keep High Elf Generals and BSBers in infantry units, or can my general go off and run with the cavalry on the flanks?

Allonairre
10-08-2010, 02:55
I don't think that it is essential to keep the General within 12" of our infantry, Leadership 8 or 9 is ok with a re-roll from the BSB. I would keep the BSB near them however as the re-roll is much more useful than the +1 or 2.

I still haven't tried a dragon mage in 8th ed but while they will be fun I don't think that they are anywhere near as good as they were, due to the decrease in effectiveness of Terror and Fear, and True Line of Sight making the dragon harder to hide. Still worth a try though, and his base spell is much more useul now.

Other than that it looks like a good beginning to your army.

wilsongrahams
10-08-2010, 06:14
A Dragon Mage was more a bonus super heavy when using the old slot selection method, but even now with percentages is still a good unit, it's just that for the cost you may as well give your dragon to your prince instead - which would have needed a Lords and Hero choice before but is now just from the Lords 25% - which is a huge allowance that still leaves a potential 25% on Heroes aswell.

Take a Dragon Mage if you like an aggressive combat magician - the bonus makes it the safer option than a regular aggressive mage even if restricted to one lore - fire.

Guardian of the Rage
10-08-2010, 07:29
I still haven't worked my way through the tomb that is the new rule book yet, but I'm thinking along the lines of a Dragon Mage, I've not seen them mentioned much at all on the thread.

I believe that one of their biggest changes is the effect of the new rules on the flaming sword; the difference in utility of that 'default' spell does reduce the effectiveness. However, one could make a case for the Dm becoming a 'Regen-hunter' as all of the spells and the dragon's attacks (with flaming sword) will negate the effects of the rule.

The change from 'Slots' also means that the whole cost must not equal more than 25 % of the army. He's probably going to be a level 2 with the wand and 5+ ward meaning that he will cost 420. Therefore the army must be at least 1680 points to include him; so 1750 minimum really. This presents another issue as some of the advantage came from the fact that you could field a dragon in very small games (1K for example); clearly this is no longer the case.

In addition, steadfast rules mean that the old tactics involving flanking ranked units are not viable (in a solo capacity at any rate) and this represented one of their best uses.

In summary, while i'm not actually saying that it is not viable, nothing about the new edition really helps them deal with their main problem (survivability and getting return on investment/opportunity cost) though in the magic phase they can still be deadly. In fact one could easily argue that the new magic system helps them a little with the their extra dice ability etc (though not with the default spell).

I hope this helps,
Kind regards,
GotR

Aenorris
10-08-2010, 09:17
I would like to use a dragon mage as well but let's face it, that is a ridiculous amount of points, and its that or a bsb for a model that can
1) suck his dragon into the empyrean with him
2) be punked off his dragon easily, making the duo combat ineffective
3) only take one damn lore without a dispel bonus
4) is a goram cannon magnet

And let's face it, the lore of fire doesn't give HE much we couldn't find someplace else

cptcosmic
10-08-2010, 09:23
I dont think the Dragon Mage is worth it. He dies super fast to light shooting. in 7. edition, you could atleast hide him somewhere, but now it is nearly impossible. The Dragon is not very strong either.

if the mage & his ride had a built in Ward Save if mounted and the option to go on foot, then he would be a good choice. Right now, when you field him, he will get shoot down in the first enemy shooting phase (unless you play against someone without shooting ofcourse)

CmdrLaw
10-08-2010, 09:41
The dragone mage is very cool on the other hand, but it's really really expensive.

I mean you could have a decent unit of PG or WL's for the same cost.

It is a good support caster however as the Bonus PD is huge now, especially with the silver wand and low fire casting values you can easily get 3 spells cast and get 3 bonus PD out of it.

Plus Flaming sword is amazing for units like LSG or PG or even spear elves.

Desert Rain
10-08-2010, 10:06
If you want something on a dragon I'd go for either a Prince or an Archmage. The dragon mage doesn't really add anything to the army any more. It prevents you from taking a BSB unless you play about 2500 points and if you're taking a lord as well you have way to much points spent on characters.

Archmages on dragons might not be a very competitive choice either, but I'd say that it is better than the DM at least. And much more expensive. The archmage is more survivable as he has both an extra wound and 100 points to buy both offensive and defensive gear. He can also bring a better dragon. You will need to play at 2500 points or more to take one though.

The prince gives you an even bigger and meaner dragon, or the option to take another one if the star dragon is to expensive. The biggest problem with a mage on a dragon is that the dragon wants to be in close combat while the mage doesn't. The prince on the other hand can be equipped as an effective, and survivable, close combat fighter. Once again he is not cheap but you get some serious value for the points that you invest in him.

Bolter Bait
10-08-2010, 19:14
Please forgive me if this has come up before, but I'm curious about what people think about the Talisman of Loec on a Blademaster this edition? In 7th, I recall some advocating for it and in my search for info on the ToL, I have seen several lists where a Prince/Noble with the White Sword can potentially put the talisman to good use in a climactic challenge.

However, in a list that cannot afford to squeeze in a full combat character, such as the common Archmage + BSB (+ Support Mage sometimes) builds, is there still a spot for the Trickster Bladelord? The altered rules for challenges aside, the turn the talisman is used, that's three rerollable WS6 S5 attacks that reroll to wound and force a reroll of successful saves (at a -2 penalty). While the enemy may expect this kind of trick from a noble, not expecting it from a Bladelord could be potentially crippling if sprung at the correct moment.

One thing that I immediately notice is that I prefer the Lore of Life, so Regrowthing a fallen Bladelord almost negates the fact that he had to die at all-especially if he successfully kills a threatening character or even army general. Similarly, with my penchant for running a lvl 2 Metal mage, Enchanted Blades of Albion appears to have wonderful potential synergy with the Trickster Bladelord, even discounting the part where his unit is also inflicting a -3sv that round to the target's bodyguard.

Has anyone experimented yet with the Trickster Bladelord this edition?

ColShaw
10-08-2010, 19:44
I actually used him LAST edition as a suicide character-killer. The ability to bring him back with Lore of Life makes it better. I think it'd be fun; Rerollable 3 WS6 S5 attacks, rerolling saves, has a pretty good chance of killing an enemy Hero.

Desert Rain
10-08-2010, 20:43
I always use the talisman on a bladelord in my armies and he is very useful. As you know he can kill enemy heroes pretty reliable and put out some serious hurt against most monsters as well.

Just remember that if you bring him back with lore of life he can't use the talisman again since it is a one use only item.

The extra 50 Vps you get from having a champion killing a character also makes him worth it.

CmdrLaw
11-08-2010, 09:49
Had a bit of a disaster game last night, main problem being a hellcanon and Chaos Knights.

The canon was out of magic range, I had units thin and wide to avoid templates while advancing but had to form up on turn 2 and basically had to ignore it and hope his shooting went bad.

It didn't, managed to kill about 20 spearmen and 15 white lions with the damn thing. Managed to regrowth alot of the WL's though.

Suddenly realised halfway through that although the PG make a great mage bunker it makes the lifeblood spell fairly pointless which is a shame as can't mix regen with ward saves.

He was running 7 Chaos knights and the early game was me running my white lions at them as they were the only thing that was going to take them down, DP's bounced off without a causing a casulty and then got wiped out. Once in combat the WL's made short work of them. I got deployment blocked by several 5 strong units of warhounds.

Plus early manuvering was thwarted when I failed 3 swift manuver checks on turn 1...with rerolls, which kind of spoiled my tactics.

Annulian Crystal did great, but my magic was awful, crap wind rolls and the banner of sorcery only gave 1 dice every turn...

But need some better tactics for dealing with the Hellcanon. Any good ideas? Bearing in mind its usually over 24" away.

lacurra
11-08-2010, 15:13
i have played against chaos warriors only once and it was a nightmare game for me. the chaos knights and frankly just the warriors with their chaos armor gave me fits. most times in combat i wasn't doing any damage. i didn't have the right magic to fight them and paid for it.

i'm still very new as a player, what is the best lore of magic to take in the game. i have taken a few different ones but haven't found a great one yet for my army. against dwarves i take the lore of death just to purple sun the little buggers and for goblins i take fire, but is there a good universal one to have with you?

Desert Rain
11-08-2010, 15:17
I've faced Chaos a single time with the new rules, and they are really hard to fight. I use Lore of Shadows and it is a great help against Chaos. Mindrazor and Withering helps you to kill them , especially Mindrazor since it gives you enough strength to negate almost all of their armour saves. The Enfeebeling Foe and Miasma are good for preventing them from killing you in return.

Since you can't choose lore before the game any more I take Lore of Shadows since it is a good lore against every opponent and it goes very nicely together with the High Elves. A lot of people use Lore of Life as well, and Death.

CmdrLaw
11-08-2010, 15:43
Mind Razor would have been great, but the one time I managed to get a good 6 dice cast and got Dwellers off it got scrolled anyway....

But yeah shadows might work better than life, but Life did work well that game as saved me from a couple of miscasts from pandemonium and brought 8 WL's back from the grave after being Hellcanoned.


any suggestions on how to kill the damn thing :(

lacurra
11-08-2010, 16:19
i pretty much count on not getting a real spell off the first couple of turns in a game and try instead to weather the storm and draw out my opponents dispel scrolls. now that they can only carry one each, it seems to be easier to do though the stupid dwarves can bring more runes which kind of gets rough when they are blasting you with artillery.

Desert Rain
11-08-2010, 16:23
With lore of Shadows you've got both Pendulum which can hurt it if it fails an I test and Pit of Shades witch kills it instantly if it fails an I test. The crew has I2 so it is a good chance that it will fail. You can even cast Miasma on it first to reduce it to 1.

lacurra
11-08-2010, 16:28
yeah my last couple games have been against dwarves and purple sun messed them up pretty royally.

CmdrLaw
11-08-2010, 16:31
Yeah the only problem with magicing the Hellcanon is that its usually in a corner of the board somewhere about 30" from my mage :( so out of most spell ranges even boosted.
would have to literally do a suicide run through the enemy army to take it out.

Shame light cav and eagles would be eaten pretty sharpish by it or that would be an option.

Thoras
11-08-2010, 21:45
With the release of the stunning gryphon model, i'm woundering if its worth taking? As a relayive newbie to fantasy i'm wounding if the 200 points is a sound investement.

Zaszz
11-08-2010, 21:57
Unfortunately for its point cost your better off investing just a little more and getting a dragon for extra wounds and toughness. The griffon does do some damage, especially with a lord on it set up with a 2+4++ rerollable, and a basic great weapon, and it will often be in combat by 2nd turn. The problem is its cost, and then it gets hit by a cannon ball and the new rules make both the rider and monster get hit. Now I do run a list with a lore of Life mage nearby and 4 eagles and a griffon :p Each time the life mage casts successfully she restores 1 wound to one of the nearby multi wound models. She can also put a toughness boost spell on the griffon. Still at the points to bring a mage a bsb and a griffon rider, your not going to have the points for an archmage anymore, or you have soo many points you would be better off with a dragon.

So basically IMO if you really want to run it, bring a life mage to back it up, with say seer staff, lvl 2, regrowth and stone skin. Then also bring a bunch of eagles to keep up with him and make a messy combined charge. You will be better off with a dragon however, or in 2k games a single lvl 4 mage is a stronger non special choice.

I hope they one day reduce its cost to 175 points.

Thoras
11-08-2010, 22:20
Unfortunately for its point cost your better off investing just a little more and getting a dragon for extra wounds and toughness. The griffon does do some damage, especially with a lord on it set up with a 2+4++ rerollable, and a basic great weapon, and it will often be in combat by 2nd turn. The problem is its cost, and then it gets hit by a cannon ball and the new rules make both the rider and monster get hit. Now I do run a list with a lore of Life mage nearby and 4 eagles and a griffon :p Each time the life mage casts successfully she restores 1 wound to one of the nearby multi wound models. She can also put a toughness boost spell on the griffon. Still at the points to bring a mage a bsb and a griffon rider, your not going to have the points for an archmage anymore, or you have soo many points you would be better off with a dragon.

So basically IMO if you really want to run it, bring a life mage to back it up, with say seer staff, lvl 2, regrowth and stone skin. Then also bring a bunch of eagles to keep up with him and make a messy combined charge. You will be better off with a dragon however, or in 2k games a single lvl 4 mage is a stronger non special choice.

I hope they one day reduce its cost to 175 points.

Think this pretty much hammers the nail in the coffin :)

I've become pretty disenchanted with the magic phase in my last 2 games, so i'm looking to run a fighty lord instead (2k points).

Now on the one hand is a prince, usual kit riding with a 9 strong dragon prince unit.

On the other hand (more or less) is a prince on a gryphon

Just seems like the DP's/mount prince is likely to cause the enemy more trouble than the gryphon (but hot damn is it an amazing model :))

Desert Rain
11-08-2010, 22:20
The griffon can work, especially with a life mage as described by Zaszz in his post. However, it will never be as good as the sun dragon which is just another 30 points for so many benefits. So if you are going to play competitive don't take one, but if winning isn't the most important thing to you by all means take one since you like the model.

Aenorris
11-08-2010, 23:35
Imo you're better off with a sun dragon than a griffon. At 30 more points you get a breath weapon and an armor save (even at 5+)

Aenorris
11-08-2010, 23:38
Anyone have any tricks for damn flamers of tzeentch?

enyoss
12-08-2010, 00:21
I've only managed to get a Griffon to work using Eltharion. Usually the big chicken gets mauled by even the most modest bowfire, but Eltharion's ward save and Stormwing's extra wound go some way to protecting against this. The vastly improved Lore of Life makes him an even more attractive option, although I'd be a little worried about miscasting.

Peril
12-08-2010, 00:30
Anyone have any tricks for damn flamers of tzeentch?

Dragon Princes.

puckus10
12-08-2010, 00:48
Think this pretty much hammers the nail in the coffin :)

I've become pretty disenchanted with the magic phase in my last 2 games, so i'm looking to run a fighty lord instead (2k points).

Now on the one hand is a prince, usual kit riding with a 9 strong dragon prince unit.

On the other hand (more or less) is a prince on a gryphon

Just seems like the DP's/mount prince is likely to cause the enemy more trouble than the gryphon (but hot damn is it an amazing model :))

I think you definetly need some sort of magic in your army. I just played a game where I had a lvl 2 with Shadow. The lvl 2 allowed my 8 Silver Helms to kill 6 Ogre Bulls, a horde of 40 gnoblars, a 300pt character, and three ledbealchers. Thats a lot more points than eight silver helms!

Aenorris
12-08-2010, 00:58
Dragon Princes.

Yeah, that'd be cute. Those damns things are so OP. I'd like to take the nerfbat to them myself.

Aenorris
12-08-2010, 01:00
I think you definetly need some sort of magic in your army. I just played a game where I had a lvl 2 with Shadow. The lvl 2 allowed my 8 Silver Helms to kill 6 Ogre Bulls, a horde of 40 gnoblars, and three ledbealchers. Thats a lot more points than eight silver helms!

what I want to know is why did you have 8 silver helms, lose a bet lol ;)

puckus10
12-08-2010, 01:28
:p to Aenorris! 8 actually works pretty good! Its maneuverable and can throw out 9 rerollable str. 5 attacks with a Champion. Torture their enemy unit with Shadow and the enemy's once strongest unit is mincemeat!!

Aenorris
12-08-2010, 01:33
Yeah, but dp's are SO much better for a minimal increase in points, dragon armor, 2 atk's WS and LD increase. To each his own though :)

Aenorris
12-08-2010, 01:40
Can anyone tell me why silver helms aren't core?

King_Pash
12-08-2010, 01:58
Can anyone tell me why silver helms aren't core?

Because the Army Book says so :p

enyoss
12-08-2010, 01:58
Mainly because certain players couldn't show any restraint back in 6th edition and took nothing but silverhelms when they were core choices. That seemed to grate a bit with the designers who had a somewhat different image of High Elves (i.e. blocks of spearmen), so they bumped them to special.

Their eulogy was barely finished when the two units of 10 archers craze popped up, probably sending the poor designers into meltdown.

If it doesn't work with 25% and the new supporting attacks rule they might as well forget it.

Aenorris
12-08-2010, 02:07
Seems like some designers just like to make things more and more painfully complicated instead of impose an easy solution (even though I do think % has gone a long way for balance). But now everyone but puckus10 has SH sitting around in a box because they couldn't think to put a 0-2 liniter instead of making them obsolete special choice.

lacurra
12-08-2010, 03:09
there is no real reason for the silver helms to be special units when for 7 point more (provided you gave your silver helms shields) you can double your attacks. kind of senseless. i really hope that they release plastic DP's come October because i will stock up on them.

Bloody Nunchucks
12-08-2010, 03:12
the designers want to see blocks of units fighting in the HE army, not small units of calvary. also in the last book nobody took spearmen so thats why SH were moved to special. its a shame but oh well, DP's are still a better choice although i havnt figured out how to use our calvary effectively yet due to the new rules.

Aenorris
12-08-2010, 03:57
Here's a questionfor a take all comers list, in a shop with like 13 dwarf players (gags a bit) do you think I should take x3-4 eagles who can really only hunt WM, or DP's who can flank charge for combat res and good causaulties, but aren't quite as good at getting to WM (but really make a mess of them).

Aenorris
12-08-2010, 03:59
there is no real reason for the silver helms to be special units when for 7 point more (provided you gave your silver helms shields) you can double your attacks. kind of senseless. i really hope that they release plastic DP's come October because i will stock up on them.

What are the mini's that are going plastic come october?

Allonairre
12-08-2010, 04:41
I've only managed to get a Griffon to work using Eltharion. Usually the big chicken gets mauled by even the most modest bowfire, but Eltharion's ward save and Stormwing's extra wound go some way to protecting against this. The vastly improved Lore of Life makes him an even more attractive option, although I'd be a little worried about miscasting.

In the old edition I managed to make it work ok, got a couple of wins out of him, a loss (my fault not the griffons) and a draw. That's just a Prince not Eltharion. All our monstrous mounts are less viable now due to the changes to flanking, terror etc. A griffon is a fun way to play though because it is so vulnerable, you are always on the edge of your seat a bit.

As for the magic, I completely agree with an earlier poster about relying on it, I haven't been able to construct a reliable magic phase yet, if I could afford to go without a lord then I would but I have found it very hard to fit in a mage + a general + a BSB into the 25% cap, I am playing reasonably small games obviously. So I normally take an Archmage.

Eltharion with Life would be awesome, would beasts work really well here as well. I can't remember the beasts attribute, but +1S and +1T for Eltharion and his Griffon would be handy.

As to ways to include Silverhelms, talk to your friends and ask if you can make them core that don't count (like Dark Elf Harpies) or 1 infantry -1 silver helms (like Dwarf Long Beards). It wouldn't be tournament viable but they may not mind. I don't think my group would let me because I am a bit too competitive and they would see it as me trying to gain an advantage (core Cavalry) for myself. None of us like to lose much even though we don't really play with broken lists.

A couple of questions:
Radiant Gem of Hoeth- Has anyone tried it? How did it go?

Scrolls- Does anyone take them? At what pts level?

Magic Phase- How do you do it effectively without Teclis?
I just don't get the rub of the dice and so if I rely on it I am in serious trouble.

THanks in advance for any feedback.

Desert Rain
12-08-2010, 07:56
Radiant Gem of Hoeth- Has anyone tried it? How did it go?
Not with the new rules. I used to take it quite often on a noble in 7th edition. It should still be a solid choice, probably even a better one, now that you can use more dice and generally have better spells from the BRB lores.




Scrolls- Does anyone take them? At what pts level?
I haven't used any so far, and I don't feel that I need one either. Perhaps in 3000 points if I bring a 3rd mage since my Archmage can't have it and my 2nd has the Annulian Crystal.




Magic Phase- How do you do it effectively without Teclis?
I just don't get the rub of the dice and so if I rely on it I am in serious trouble.In 2000 points I have a L.4 with Staff of Solidity, Talisman of Preservation and Lore of Shadows as well as the Banner of Sorcery. In 2250-2500 I take an additional mage with Annulian Crystal and a yet to be decided lore.

Obviously not as powerful as if you take Teclis, but I find that it is still good enough and I don't feel that I need to use Teclis at all. The basic trick is really to throw enough dice at each spell so that you are sure that you get it off. This is especially important since if you fail you can't cast any more.

Thoras
12-08-2010, 08:06
I've only managed to get a Griffon to work using Eltharion. Usually the big chicken gets mauled by even the most modest bowfire, but Eltharion's ward save and Stormwing's extra wound go some way to protecting against this. The vastly improved Lore of Life makes him an even more attractive option, although I'd be a little worried about miscasting.

I'm always worried about miscasting ;) (last game my arch mage blew up, costing me a blood and glory game)

In regards to the Gryphon (or sun dragon) if you run vembraces of defence, i presume the 4+ ward effects the monster also? Or am i pushing my luck? :)

Desert Rain
12-08-2010, 10:27
The Vambraces only affect the wearer, not his mount.

Von Wibble
12-08-2010, 13:08
A couple of questions:
Radiant Gem of Hoeth- Has anyone tried it? How did it go?

Scrolls- Does anyone take them? At what pts level?

Magic Phase- How do you do it effectively without Teclis?
I just don't get the rub of the dice and so if I rely on it I am in serious trouble.

THanks in advance for any feedback.

I almost always take the gem. I like to give the model death magic as he has a high ld, making spirit leech more powerful, and with a decent armour save he doesn't have the problem that other mages do in combat (I give him a barded steed and put him with dragon princes). You have just enough point on a noble for a luckstone and on a prince you can afford a 4+ ward if you don't mind having only the lance for killing. However, I play at 2500 points and can therefore afford archmage, bsb and 1 more character, who can be a prince.

Scrolls - I find the annulian crystal is so much better myself. Maybe a dispel scroll at 3000 points, but I feel I'd rather pay the few extra points to try to destroy the spell - the other scrolls are just too situational for my liking.

As to how to dominate the magic phase, I have found that my level 4 and level 1, combined with annulian crystal and banner of sorcery do the job nicely.

lacurra
12-08-2010, 14:33
What are the mini's that are going plastic come october?

not sure yet but there are pretty persistant rumors that DP's will be one of the units. i think there are 3 models coming out or so. the rumors are WL's, DP's, and PG's but i think that the SM's make more sense than the PG's since they made plastic models for the island of blood box set. really we'll have to wait a little bit to see for sure but it will be great to have some affordable DP's.

lacurra
12-08-2010, 14:36
Here's a questionfor a take all comers list, in a shop with like 13 dwarf players (gags a bit) do you think I should take x3-4 eagles who can really only hunt WM, or DP's who can flank charge for combat res and good causaulties, but aren't quite as good at getting to WM (but really make a mess of them).

we have a lot of stumpy players in the shop i go to as well, and a new one starting :/ i found that i have the best luck with shadow warriors and lots of mages. i take lore of death and other people have suggested lore of shadow. really take spells that will take advantage of their low initiative. i personally suck with eagles but i always run DP's. the problem i've had with going after their war machines with DP's is they always get targeted and decimated.

wilsongrahams
12-08-2010, 18:46
The biggest advantage I find with using a pair of Eagles - probably true with more but I only have two, is that they are very fast compared to any other unit, can still cause a good deal of damage, and are dirt cheap - if they get shot up before they do anything, then that's still only a handful of points that took those cannons off firing at your big expensive units that you want intact. I find that a Noble and some Shadow Warriors is a very good nuisance unit to take out war machines and tend to attract a lot of firepower their way - they usually die but due to cover etc they take less damage than a regular unit in the open would.

When I get round to reassembling my two eagles I will use them in conjunction with the shadow warriors to concentrate on the war machines and things like Dwarf Thunderers to draw the fire and hope that at least one unit can engage and cause damage. The other advantage that two eagles have is that they are two seperate units, and therefore excessive wounds inflicted on one cannot just be passed to the other like what happens with Cavalry as it is one unit of several models.

lacurra
12-08-2010, 22:13
i sadly never thought of adding a noble to my SW units. i may have to do that for the upcoming tourney. that should give them some fits. :D

wilsongrahams
13-08-2010, 18:17
If you check my Painting Log - link in sig - you'll see the model I use - he just didn't fit in aesthetically with any unit other than Shadow Warriors and with Shadow Armour (I think that's the name) he can deploy with them - giving a decent bow would also benefit - I tend to keep him without it just to save points - he's there to defend them in combat and help with Leadership tests.

Advice I'd like is concerning Ellyrian Reavers - I will be having 20 come september, and need to decide how to use them. I'm likely going to use only half at a time but will keep all the models. I was thinking ten in a five wide formation, but twelve in a four wide formation seems like a good choice too. I'm not intending to use them as an aggressive unit but probably use bows mostly and then follow up with my chariots - having not used cavalry other than Dragon Princes before I'm a little put off by their lack of amour.

Aenorris
13-08-2010, 23:17
The isle of blood reavers are sick, I. Have used them a lot, but thet don't go off as well as they used too :( shadow warrioes are nice but seem so overcosted, and then to add a noble... yeesh. I'll try it fore I knock it though.

ScytheSwathe
14-08-2010, 00:07
On reavers, and for that matter many other things...
Im increasingly coming to the conculusion that 12 in the minimum sized unit worth taking, with a few exceptions, which should be obvious (ogres, trolls, certain shooty units ).

This is because of breaking ranks. Reavers are fast cav, they have many roles such as war machine hunting, charge redirecting and nuisance causing, but when battle lines collide you want something to hit the flanks and negate ranks. Fast cav are one unit that can easily fill this role.

So 12. My magic number. Take them in ranks of 5-5-2. Same goes for white lions, swordmasters, stormvermin, black orcs, bowmen and whatever else. The trouble with units of 10 is that it only takes one death to prevent you negating ranks. And everything will be able to attack back with something, or at least every ranked unit will. And ranks are now worked out at the end of combat. Therefore units of 12 give you an extra 2 casualties before losing this role. That seems to be enough. Nothing stops you going bigger obviously depending on what you want the unit to achieve, but i wouldnt go any smaller except for very unusual units.


Reaver in themselves, i have found to be underwhelming in their own right, but im not sure ive been using them properly or against the right armies, so i wont comment other than to say, i think eagles make better warmachine/wizard killers, dragon princes make better flankers, and shadow warriors make better nuisance units. None of the others can combine all 3 (but i would use my points for eagles).

wilsongrahams
14-08-2010, 12:30
Thanks - I'll probably go for 15 then.

Eagles may make better WM hunters but Reavers will be pretty flexible and fast still.

Marwynn
15-08-2010, 03:25
The Vanguard rule can make the Reavers annoying in their own right. You just have to give up going first, and you can declare a first turn charge or totally block a unit's advance.

Cavalry, overall, have lost utility due to being unable to break ranks without sufficient numbers. Shadow Warriors are overall unaffected by the changes, but I wouldn't recommend their use really.

lacurra
16-08-2010, 01:41
i really like SW's but think they are way over priced. last game i played i was able to take our an organ gun and his master engineer with my SW's

Thoras
16-08-2010, 21:18
i really like SW's but think they are way over priced. last game i played i was able to take our an organ gun and his master engineer with my SW's

Im actually really keen to give shadow warriors a go (mainly because their fluff is so awesome). Is a 6 strong band likely to be enough to go war machine hunting?

lacurra
17-08-2010, 01:16
it will if it doesn't get wiped out by an organ gun. i find that SW's make mince meat out of any of the crews. stupid organ guns always hit so if you are in range you will take some casualties but 6 would man handle any crew it got close to.

Aenorris
17-08-2010, 06:07
I am wondering about dwarf specific tactics in a take all comers list. Anyone have any good strayegies they always try to pull off against stumpies?

Aenorris
17-08-2010, 06:16
Also, a cool, cheap way to convert shadow warriors is to use the dunedain rangers plastic box set from lotr and add various small elfy things and square bases. I would post pics but they're not done yet.

warriornick
17-08-2010, 10:25
I am talking with a friend about playing a battle againsta empire,that he is gonna go FULL shooting to see what happens.i am talking about 9 wm (3 mortars,2 rocket batteries,1 hellblaster,3 cannons) a steam tank and 5-6 handunner units with marksmen to try take my mage lord(prolly teclis) out.

What would you suggest?
I am thinking 5 units of 20 spearmen each,10 sw,2 6 man ellyrian's ,4 eagles ,1 phoenix guard,teclis ,1 mage and bsb.

Deadite
17-08-2010, 16:05
So, is there any kind of unit by unit analysis available? Strengths/Weaknesses? What's not worth taking and what is worth taking every time? A solid "All-comers" army should look similar to.... ???
I know there will be varied opinions but I'm trying to formulate my next few purchases. If I can thin them down to just purchasing effective units, that would make my wallet (and wife) happy.

Aenorris
17-08-2010, 18:55
I think there is on page 2 or 3 of this thread. Thing about high elves even more than some other armies, is that all their choices (minus silver helms) are reasonable unit choices depending on the other options you have taken. I know that's not so helpful but maybe with an explanation of playstyle or the models you have I could be more helpful.

ColShaw
17-08-2010, 20:43
I am talking with a friend about playing a battle againsta empire,that he is gonna go FULL shooting to see what happens.i am talking about 9 wm (3 mortars,2 rocket batteries,1 hellblaster,3 cannons) a steam tank and 5-6 handunner units with marksmen to try take my mage lord(prolly teclis) out.

What would you suggest?
I am thinking 5 units of 20 spearmen each,10 sw,2 6 man ellyrian's ,4 eagles ,1 phoenix guard,teclis ,1 mage and bsb.

You want a LOT of Eagles, the more the better, to deal with that. Send them all up one flank (you'll lose a few to the Handgunners), and charge turn 2-3 into the war machines. Even a single Eagle will do okay against human war machine crew, and two will wipe out a cannon a turn.

Glen_Savet
18-08-2010, 00:28
You guys like the new Reaver models? I can't stand them because they have barding. They're not supposed to have barding! Argh!

LaurentleBete
18-08-2010, 00:39
What would you suggest?
I am thinking 5 units of 20 spearmen each,10 sw,2 6 man ellyrian's ,4 eagles ,1 phoenix guard,teclis ,1 mage and bsb.

Maybe drop Teclis and take an ethereal mage? That'd throw him off.

What's that? Sniper shot on my caster? Who cares :D

You could even place him off on his own, to draw as many templates and cannonballs as possible in the first round of shooting and laugh as they just whizz through him!

Better give him some MR though or a single fireball, and it's mage on the bbq.

lacurra
18-08-2010, 15:27
Also, a cool, cheap way to convert shadow warriors is to use the dunedain rangers plastic box set from lotr and add various small elfy things and square bases. I would post pics but they're not done yet.

i personally used a box of WE glade warriors for my SW's

lacurra
18-08-2010, 15:30
how do you do an ethereal mage?

Kirasu
18-08-2010, 15:44
You spend points on the ability instead of buying the book of hoeth.. Just get Teclis, give him lore of life and you're fine. Dont need inferior mages with parlor tricks :p

CmdrLaw
18-08-2010, 15:59
how do you do an ethereal mage?

Forlaith's Robe

Desert Rain
18-08-2010, 17:58
There is a new article on the GW site aimed at the more experienced players, and it contains useful advice (believe it or not!) about the transition from older edition to the new one.

Link to the article (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?catId=&categoryId=&section=&pIndex=0&aId=12400019a&start=1)

GenerationTerrorist
18-08-2010, 21:49
Hi guys. I am interested in people's thoughts on running a mass of Lion Chariots. Or chariots in general in 8th Edition.

For example, if you managed to do the Hammer/Anvil trick of succesfully of pinning an opposing large block in place with your Spearmen/LSG/PhoenixGuard, and then smashed 2-3 Lion Chariots into the side of the unit....

By my reckoning under the new rules, they could each dish out 4 WS4 S5 attacks and 2 WS5 S6 attacks, plus the impact hits. Then they would only have to face a maximum of 3 models worth of attacks back (if infantry). Sounds potentially devastating to me.

The problem is, of course, that Chariots are not very manouverable!

Any ideas and thoughts on how to make this sort of thing work better?

lacurra
18-08-2010, 22:23
i love the lion chariots just for their presence but i'm not sure how effective they really are. i think that 10 SW's or WL's are better meat grinders than the Lion chariots

Desert Rain
19-08-2010, 07:10
I've used a single Tiranoc Chariot in every game that I've played so far. Often I team it up with either the spearmen or the sea guard to give them some extra punch. It's also very good at killing skirmishers and other light flanking units. The WLC should be able to do the same thing, but even better. I wouldn't take more than 2 of them though since they are pretty expensive and you'll need points to buy elite infantry for more reliable killing power after round 1 of close combat.

wilsongrahams
19-08-2010, 10:25
After some advice I asked for earlier in this thread, I now use two Tiranoc Chariots and one White Lion Chariot, and that combination still gives all the benefits of the Lion Chariot with the cheapness of the Tiranoc Chariot. The three of them together also have enough survivability and punch on the charge that they don't need another unit to help them - though this is advisable of course - I will likely use Ellyrion Reavers when IoB comes out as they can go slow with the pace of the chariots and shoot with them, and also won't take the combat alone either.

Infiltraitor
19-08-2010, 17:39
I don't know if a reliable tactic for the Hell Pit Abomination has been submitted yet, so forgive the repeat request. Does anyone have a solid answer for this thing?

Also...what do you get when a unit of Sea Guard get the upgraded Flesh to Stone spell cast on them and the a Screaming Bell rolls triple 4's?

You guessed it, a lot of dead elves.

wilsongrahams
19-08-2010, 17:44
I'd just do the same as I would any large and potentially deadly creature - fire a few bolt throwers at it and charge with a unit of Dragon Princes - I tend to hold these in reserve for when the enemy battle line reveals it's plan. With the ability to reform using a musician you can deploy in a line to fit between your units, then redeploy to a wide line next turn before you need to charge.

Desert Rain
19-08-2010, 17:51
The flaming banner from the rule book on some dragon princes should be able to take on the A-bomb. Preferably you can soften it up a bit with some RBT fire first.

Tarian
19-08-2010, 17:56
Or Lore of Shadow -> Miasma -> Pit of Shades it. (Or lower its S, or T, or drop a Pendulum on it, or give spears Mindrazor)

ColShaw
19-08-2010, 22:02
Mindrazor on Spearelves will kill just about anything in the game.

Von Wibble
20-08-2010, 12:59
I don't know if a reliable tactic for the Hell Pit Abomination has been submitted yet, so forgive the repeat request. Does anyone have a solid answer for this thing?

Also...what do you get when a unit of Sea Guard get the upgraded Flesh to Stone spell cast on them and the a Screaming Bell rolls triple 4's?

You guessed it, a lot of dead elves.

Don't cast the upgraded version then. T5 is still potent enough. Though the chances of triple 4 are of course a mere 1 in 216.

As to the HPA, I think the obvious answer is surely the banner of eternal flame.

You could put this on your archers/seaguard. This has the advantage that it is much easier to get these to soot the HPA than it can be to get a combat unit in touch - also your better combat units generally would prefer something to further stack odds in their favour in other combats (eg phoenix guard with razor standard). But the storm banner means that such shooting could well still only inflict minimal damage.

Alternatively you could put it on any unit containing a character with a magic bow. The considerably higher BS should go a long way to negating the penalties to hit, and if said charcter shoots first and does any damge then regeneration is down for then rest of the shooting phase.

The next option is to put it on Dragon Princes, who should be mobile enough to get the charge, and possibly give the champion a potion of strength to make absolutely sure.

However, imo the HPA has been substantially weakened in 8th edition against high elves. Our infantry charge no average 1.5" further, and a unit of white lions or swordmasters charging in inflict on average 3 wounds - with no backup from characters. It therefore only takes an extra chariot charging in and maybe a wound or 2 from shooting to finish the thing off.

Tarian
20-08-2010, 17:19
Well, the bell just needs a 11 or 12 I think, and I think the average on 3 dice is 11.

Desert Rain
24-08-2010, 10:29
Collinisimo over at www.ulthuan.net (http://www.ulthuan.net) has written this excellent tactica (http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=33028) on how to use Great Eagles in your games.

BBWags
25-08-2010, 02:43
Hello all, I've just started a High Elf army. Rather, I should say, I've bought the codex and I'm awaiting the arrival of my Isle of Blood box to learn the rules of the game as well as get some of those beautiful High Elf models.

I started learning 7th edition a few months before the switchover and I've spent some time watching at my LGS recently, so though I have no real experience, I have a good idea of the rules and such. But obviously nothing beats actual experience and the advice of the professionals.

My first question is: are there any all-in-one-place tacticas for High Elves in 8th edition? As in, writeups on each unit with strengths and weaknesses. I am coming from a 40k background and I'm not sure if my perspective on the units is correct based on some probably erroneous presuppositions.

Secondly, how would you best use the contents of the Isle of Blood box to start a High Elf army? Unfortunatley, I can't even use a Griffon mount on anything but a Lord and that means that I have to start at higher point levels if I want to use that model. Also the LSG is the most expensive core choice and I've been told the Reavers aren't really that great. I can't really pass up the beauty of those models, but is trying to use them going to give me a rough time tactically?

I've been trying to put together some lists at 2k points to use that Griffon Prince, but the Lords/Heroes are really giving me trouble. Obviously the Griffon Prince uses up all my Lords allotment. I need to have a BSB and I've heard that if you're taking LVL2s, then you really need to have 2. That is 4 Lords/Heroes in 2k points and it ends up being about half the army. That just really doesn't sound like a good idea to me. How would you go about fixing this?

I guess just some general advice would be nice. I'm really hoping to find a cohesive tactica somewhere that covers everything in one place. Hopefully I'm not just dreaming on that.

Trains_Get_Robbed
25-08-2010, 04:41
Radom Musings/Qustions:

1. So team games with partners suck, espically with unruly or whatever the H*ll its called. Anyone else run into that problem? I want to use magic so much, but then for example D.E take half your dice, or if your partnered with a Vamp or Slann, good luck. Thoughts?

2. If I hear one more word about ow great S.M are I'm going to gag. Anyone else in the same boat? Every game I play with them (like today -although, I hadn't busted them out since 7th to be fair) they just die. The low A.S, 15 points cost,for only a single attack in the back rank, is just unjustifible and not really worth it. For me S.M won't see the light of day in my new army not only because they look meh (old metal ones), but because W.L and P.G improved. Definitley can say that I' m not looking forward to having now 20 new and 30 old S.M sitting around. :(

CHARIOTS: Yessssssssssssssssssssssssss, however, never Lion Chariots. I can essentially get 2 for 1 of Tiranoc; while the benefits of a Lion Chariot are: Fear, and couple WS5 S6 attacks. . . whopppeeeD-doo.

What's all ya new and old folks magic setup, or most commonly used one (no S.C's mind you)? I either run the "unkillable mage", "Teclis Jr." or very rarley V-Shard agaisnt Slanns with my lord. And then with my Lvl 2 I run either Annulian Crystal or "Machine Gun Tommy" which is Reaver Bow and Silver Wand in a small to medium Seaguard unit -near my lone or two RBTs often times- to just be offensively minded.

EDIT: Sorry, hadn't peeked in the tactica in awhile, mainly been chilling in the Bret one (them being my new army and allzzzz :rolleyes:) thus, just threw as much crap to the wall to see what sticks. :D

BBWAGS^^^^^^^: At 2,000 points most people will tell you to take a BsB, however if you have Ld 10 on the Monsterous mount then it stretches to 18" and can cover big portions of your battle line. However that being said, I don't think its the BsB that would be the problem is the mages. I would take either one with the Silver Wand and my mentioned set up above "M.G Tommy" or a more defensive mided Lvl 2 with Annulian Crystal and maybe H.E or Shadow. Or take a two Lvl 2s and both setups, and no Bsb. Some would argue ineffcient waste, however S5 shots a turn is nothing to shake a stick at (this is where I insert roughly 3 Wins agaisnt L.M in the last month thanks to him and mutliple other battles: including taking out 2 Treemen by himself and two units of Chaos Knight in one game).

EDIT 2: Ethereal Mage is more than just Folraith's Robe, its both that and Tailsman of Saphary.

Desert Rain
25-08-2010, 10:53
My first question is: are there any all-in-one-place tacticas for High Elves in 8th edition? As in, writeups on each unit with strengths and weaknesses. I am coming from a 40k background and I'm not sure if my perspective on the units is correct based on some probably erroneous presuppositions.
Not really unfortunately, there is this thread but everything is spread out.



Secondly, how would you best use the contents of the Isle of Blood box to start a High Elf army? Unfortunatley, I can't even use a Griffon mount on anything but a Lord and that means that I have to start at higher point levels if I want to use that model. Also the LSG is the most expensive core choice and I've been told the Reavers aren't really that great. I can't really pass up the beauty of those models, but is trying to use them going to give me a rough time tactically?
You will need at least two sets of Sea Guards and Swordmasters to get decent units of them. You will need about 1500 points in order to field a Prince on a Griffon that has some protection. Reavers are OK, most people use Eagles instead since they are better. But I am going to use Reavers when I get the models because 1. I love the models and 2. I only own a single Eagle miniature.



I've been trying to put together some lists at 2k points to use that Griffon Prince, but the Lords/Heroes are really giving me trouble. Obviously the Griffon Prince uses up all my Lords allotment. I need to have a BSB and I've heard that if you're taking LVL2s, then you really need to have 2. That is 4 Lords/Heroes in 2k points and it ends up being about half the army. That just really doesn't sound like a good idea to me. How would you go about fixing this?You could take the Radiant Gem of Hoeth on your Prince instead of the second L.2 mage. Use Lore of Life with him so that he can heal his mount, which will be necessary since a Griffon is fragile. For the L.2 I'd take the Silver Wand and Lore of Shadows.



I guess just some general advice would be nice. I'm really hoping to find a cohesive tactica somewhere that covers everything in one place. Hopefully I'm not just dreaming on that.
The most general advice that I can give is to keep your infantry units together so that they all can benefit from the re-rolls from the BSB and the extra Ld from the general. Which is why I usually advice against mounting your general on a big monster. Also make sure that you have a role in mind for each units. Combining your units into teams with one of two others helps me a lot on the battlefield. For example you might team up your White Lions with your Dragon Princes and put them both on the same flank, the White Lions then act as an anvil and the Dragon Princes as a hammer. Try to use your fast units, Reavers and Eagles mostly, to annoy the enemy and force him to move to where you want him. For more tips on this read the Eagle Tactica that I posted a link to earlier on this page. Most of those tricks can be preformed by Reavers as well as eagles.

Serigala
25-08-2010, 20:22
Hi
I'm new to Fantasy, and am starting a High Elf army.
I have 3 Tiranoc chariots (bought for the lions which were converted to Space Wolf Thunderwolves), a High Elf Battalion, and will buying the Island of Blood when it comes out.

I was a little disappointed when I received the Battalion as it is the new boxset with 1 more chariot (instead of the Silver Helms).
Will I miss the cavalry? Should I try and swap the new Battalion for the old one?

I don't really want to spend too much more on the army, but how many chariots are worth keeping? I was expecting to have 3, but are 4 too many? If I do sell off 1 or 2 of the chariots what would be the best unit to add to that starting list?

Thanks

lacurra
25-08-2010, 22:37
honestly the silver helms are pretty useless. you will really want to pick up some dragon princes come october when we are supposed to get plastic ones. they only cost 7 points more per unit than silver helms but have higher weapon skill and an extra attack. i would say that your 3 chariots is probably plenty of them, i might try to get a lion chariot if you don't have any but you certainly don't need any more tiranocs.

Desert Rain
26-08-2010, 06:43
ALSO WHAT IS EVERYONES/ANYONES FAVORITE MAGE SET UPS?
For an Archmage I like the Staff of Solidity + Talisman of Preservation set up. She hasn't died in 12 games so far.

Bloody Nunchucks
26-08-2010, 06:50
i would take the banner of eternal flame on that horde unit of LSG if its in an all comers list. although the A.P banner is also a good choice. i like to give a level 4 the ethreal robe and sliver wand, then a level 1 with seerstaff. of couse i only take the robe and wand after i fill up the teclis and BOH slots, lol

unheilig
26-08-2010, 09:25
So the only units worth fielding are phoenix guard and great eagles and the rest of the army book is crap?

wilsongrahams
26-08-2010, 10:12
Not at all. Our Spearmen are better than ever fighting in four ranks usually and five if Horded up. For this reason I still use mine in blocks of 20, just for the better maneuverability a smaller unit offers, and if you charge in the flank, you can't usually get all your models in combat anyway so having an extra rank due to Horde is meaningless when half your troops are standing around just absorbing kills - a second unit can do this just as well and engage on a different front and contribute the full attacks again for the same cost. I use three 20 man blocks at the moment (only half are painted though, damn elves), will soon add another 20, plus two units of 20 Sea Guard. This gives a relatively large HE army due to using the cheapest units, and surprises many opponents. I then follow these blocks up with units of the elites - and with all those spearmen to absorb hits, I find Swordmasters have the surviveability they desperately need to close with the enemy and once there cause some havoc. Lead these with something that weathers firepower like rain such as WL or PG and you will have a massacre on your hands in the later turns.

I play 3000 pt games usually btw.

Desert Rain
26-08-2010, 10:34
So the only units worth fielding are phoenix guard and great eagles and the rest of the army book is crap?
Spearmen are good, especially with a noble
Archers and LSG are OK
Swordmasters are awesome
White Lions are great
Dragon Princes are great
Tiranoc Chariots are good
RBTs are OK
Great Eagles are great

Just my opinion about the units that are in my list.

Swordmasters aren't that fragile, usually they are in combat in turn 2 and then they are going to kill a lot, even if they lost a few guys on the way in. You just need a bit bigger units, like 14-18 strong that can handle some causalities.

Tarian
26-08-2010, 14:26
Well, here's my opinions:

Spears: Solid, and very good for (relatively) cheap core.
Archers: Too expensive for my tastes.
LSG: Very solid, but a bit pricy.
Silver Helms: Not Dragon Princes.
Dragon Princes: Very hard, elite Cav. Usually worth their points, especially due to speed and armor.
Swordmasters: Glass hammers, had a unit of 9 take out 13 Saurus Warriors on the charge. (The return strike hurt though, dropping 7 of mine.)
White Lions: S6 ASF is scary for Knights/Monsters
Phoenix Guard: Best bunker unit for HE, hard to kill, and ASF I6 S4 isn't too shabby to hit.
RBTs: Not sure how much they're worth it, but I still usually take a couple.

BBWags
26-08-2010, 15:30
I've just put together my first 3k list for HE. I'm trying to get that point level set as my aim for collecting minis and then, of course, I will plan out how to work to that level having options for various point levels. I know Warseer has a separate army list forum, but honestly, I've never had good results posting army lists there, so I figured I'd ask all of you for your opinion on this list. I'm not going for uber competitive, just something that is competitive that lets me put my own little spin on things.

Archmage - lvl 4, Book of Hoeth

Mage - Silver Wand, Annulian Crystal

Noble - BSB, Armor of Caledor, Dispel Scroll (am I allowed to put a DS on a non-mage?)

20x Lothern Sea Guard - Full Command

20x Spearmen - Full Command

20x Spearmen - Full Command

20x Archers - Musician

20x Sword Masters - Bladelord w/ Enchanted Shield & Amulet of Light, Full Command

20x Phoenix Guard - Full Command - Banner of Sorcery

20x White Lions of Chrace - Full Command

2x Repeater Bolt Thrower

3x Great Eagles

What do you think? Weaknesses? Strengths?

Bloody Nunchucks
26-08-2010, 16:09
for your second mage i would use a seerstaff to get what you need/want.

i would give your BSB the guardian pheonix as well as the AoC.

i would give the seaguard the eternal flame banner, for hydras/vargulf/whatever.

i would give the SM's an anti shooting banner/magic resistance, keep them safer for a turn.

the rest is great. its a good list in general and its a good all comers list. i would suggest lore of life for your lvl 4, then death for the other mage. i like doing this because you cast purple sun first then you get more powerdice for your lvl 4, its like a free spell if it goes off.

ColShaw
26-08-2010, 16:12
You can't have a Dispel Scroll on a non-wizard. And it's a little weak on fighting characters, but I understand you're going spell-heavy. Other than that, looks decent.

wilsongrahams
26-08-2010, 17:04
I agree on the choice of full sized units for the elites - they will get their points back - with three deadly units your opponent won't be able to just concentrate on one - and the three spearmen units (one sea guard) are great to bulk it out and help the elites out.

I especially like that there is a good infantry base which makes this a better all-comer list. Some go too heavy on cavalry or super characters but this tends to make things more of a risk when you don't have a larger army to change things about.

Desert Rain
26-08-2010, 17:06
Looks like a solid list to me. However, it lacks some of the smaller utility units such as 5 Dragon Princes, Chariots and so on. What you have now is just a wall (a really hard wall ;)) of infantry but nothing that can guard its flanks. I'd drop some elite models to free up some points for utility units.

wilsongrahams
26-08-2010, 17:10
Desert Rain may have a point there - whilst I'd be loathe to drop anything you currently have in the elites - I like full units because they can weather a few storms - but the archers aren't that useful overall, especially against horde armies or armoured armies like Chaos Warriors - replacing the archers with say two Chariots could be a good choice - I don't think you'd get enough points for the minimum 5 Dragon Princes without sacrificing something useful or having odd-numbered units (I hate incomplete ranks in starting armies!).

Bloody Nunchucks
26-08-2010, 17:20
i dont htink he can replace the archers due to points reguirements on core. i do agree though that a small unit of calvary or a tiranoc chariot or two would be a good idea

Tarian
26-08-2010, 23:01
Couple nit-picky things myself:
1) The Silver Wand and Annulian Crystal are both Arcane Items (can only have 1)
2) Enchanted Shield on Bladelord is a bit of a waste imo, as you lose the 3 S5 A for 3 S3 A and a better AS.
3) I'd drop Archers to 10, just 'cause I don't like them much.
4) Don't like the Book of Hoeth, think it's too many points, would rather have the Ethereal/Silver Wand/Talisman of Saphery Archmage.

So, by dropping the archers, the Book, and maybe an eagle, you'd net around 250-300 points to play with, giving you either some knights, some chariots, or some sort of combination of the above.

BBWags
27-08-2010, 03:09
I appreciate all your advice and comments on that list. I'm still working on revisions. In the meantime, what are people's views on the repeater bolt thrower? I heard some saying it wasn't that great but it seems like we need SOME sort of long range power aside from S3 arrows . . . also, I hear alot of people preferring the Tiranoc Chariot as opposed to the White Lion Chariot. I understand the difference in prices, but are the Tiranocs really that much better? The Lions seem stronger, able to put out more damage, and tougher and . . . well, I gotta say it, cooler. So what am I missing? Is it simply that putting out 3 cheaper but weaker sets of attacks is better than putting out 2 higher strength sets of attacks?

Siphon
27-08-2010, 03:51
It's generally a survivability thing. A lion chariot dies just as easily as a Tiranoc chariot (only a 4+ save to a 5+ for the Tiranoc), but with 2 tiranoc chariots for roughly the same price as one lion chariot you get double the wounds and two models so one cannon shot isn't going to wipe out your chariot support.

Bloody Nunchucks
27-08-2010, 04:58
in a 2k all comers list i try to find the points for at least 1 RBT, just because we do need an answer to some units that s3 cant help with. in a 3k game mybe 3??. i tried using 3 in a 2k game and they were NOT worth their points. in my opinion they are best left on the shelf, unless you know your playing a brett army or somethin like that.

as for the chariots, they really only matter when they charge, people buy chariots for the charging power, most people would rather have 2D6 S5 attacks on the charge rather than 1D6. also the survivability is a huge issue, especially if your relying on them to protect your flank or be a key part of your center formation

Desert Rain
27-08-2010, 10:26
I use one RBT in 2000 points. In my last game it was worthless and didn't hit anything for the entire game. In others it has been really useful. They are fragile but if you put them like 40" away from the enemy you can shoot them but they can't shoot you.

Loopstah
27-08-2010, 14:08
I used 3 RBT in a 2 vs 2 3K game last night (I had 1.5K HE). Their sole contribution to the game was killing 2 Empire Handgunners and 16 Swordsmen.

Not that impressive, however if the enemy had had some big creatures I could have single shot, then they might have been better.



So it turns out I have 50+ Spearmen, is it worth running them in a horde as my main regiment or two blocks of 25?

They would be supported either by chariots or Dragon Princes, or both.

Desert Rain
27-08-2010, 14:25
2*25 is better than a big horde of 50 in almost every way. The horde looks more awesome though.

Loopstah
27-08-2010, 14:34
I was thinking of sticking a BSB in there with the Banner of the World Dragon which I wouldn't be able to do using two units. Although I suppose 2 units of 25 would present less of a juicy target for nasty spells.

To be honest I could probably run two units of 30 6x5 which would work even better.

Avatar111x
27-08-2010, 22:58
On the subject of RBT there is always a place for them in my army.

I just played WoC this week and took three of them. The fear of the AP bolts hitting his prize units of Chaos Knights and Warriors was enough to lure them into attacks against the units I place to protect them - White Lions and Swordmasters.

The result was two massacres in my favour and whilst the casualties caused by the RBT were average, it threw my opponants plans in the air by knowing that he could not permit all the machines remain operating all game, hence having his line pulled out of position and forced in isolated combats against elite Elven units.

brendino
28-08-2010, 01:57
yeah, RBTs are still not bad, for example I played a game against a two HPA skaven list, and my two RBTs performed beatifully: after seaguard with flame banner inflicted two wounds on the first HPA, thus negating regen for the rest of the turn, the RBTs finished it off; on turn 2 they killed 9 stormvermin (not too shabby at all), and finally after being ambushed by tunneling (or whatever they do where they can appear anywhere) gutter runners, the first one died in combat, but the second one killed two in their turn, killed two in combat in the skaven turned to no losses in return, and shot the gutter runners down as they ran!

unfortunately, against an army with any shooting or scouts (lets face it i was VERY lucky to not lose both my RBTs to the gutter runners), they are too fragile, and eagles are ofter a better investment.

paspinall
28-08-2010, 12:09
Well I love the models in the new box set, but from what I can see the reavers are unlikely to see any use and I dont think the Griffon is a particularly great choice much of the time, what does everyone else think? If I get a box, which i probably will, I am suspecting my best bet may be to convert the lord in to Eltharion should I decide to use him.

brendino
28-08-2010, 19:47
Well I love the models in the new box set, but from what I can see the reavers are unlikely to see any use and I dont think the Griffon is a particularly great choice much of the time, what does everyone else think? If I get a box, which i probably will, I am suspecting my best bet may be to convert the lord in to Eltharion should I decide to use him.

I am going to use both, just because they look so cool, although I will probably convert the grifriffin rider into eltharion.

BBWags
29-08-2010, 00:57
How would this work as a 1250 pt army to start off with, maybe do a coupla 1250 tournies at the FLGS to get to know people -

LVL 2 Mage w/ Annulian Crystal

20x LSG w/ Full Command

20x Spearmen w/ Full Command

20x Spearmen w/ Full Command

15x Sword Masters w/ Bladelord, Standard Bearer w/ War Banner

2x Great Eagles

I'm trying to think of things that will scale up well and be fluffy. Again, I've never even played a game of 8th edition and only one game of 7th, so my experience is basically non-existent. But this seems like a solid, if uninspired, little list. I just wasn't sure at all what to do for a leader. But I figured ya gotta have magic and if I tried to go 2 heroes, that would just starve the rest of the list at such low point levels.

Advice?

Avatar111x
29-08-2010, 12:32
As a list it's solid. However, I'd lose Annulian Crystal and give your Mage the Silver Wand. Having the three spells means I'll have an opportunity to really bombard the other side with magic (but that's just personal preference).

Secondly, your Bladelord needs Amulet of Light. Gives you another option for dropping etherals rather than your mage alone.

Desert Rain
29-08-2010, 14:20
Silver Wand is great at lower points values on a L.2 so I'd recommend it.

Personally I always give my bladelord the talisman of loec to kill enemy heroes. Amulet of light might be useful depending on what your metagame looks like.

The list is pretty solid, but it seems to me that it lacks some support units, I'd consider dropping one unit of spearmen for a couple of chariots or some dragon princes. But that's up to you.

ScytheSwathe
29-08-2010, 15:50
What do people think makes for a good lore on a lvl2 mage?

At the moment im running a lvl4 (Shadow) with annulian crystal, and a lvl2 with the jewel of the dusk, alongside the banner of sorcery; which i think will give me a good balance of a big magic offence and sensible magic defence without going too overboard. The jewel of the dusk may change to silver wand depending on its efficacy, but im undecided on what lore to take ont he second mage. Life, High, Death, or something completely different?

Von Wibble
29-08-2010, 18:19
What do people think makes for a good lore on a lvl2 mage?

At the moment im running a lvl4 (Shadow) with annulian crystal, and a lvl2 with the jewel of the dusk, alongside the banner of sorcery; which i think will give me a good balance of a big magic offence and sensible magic defence without going too overboard. The jewel of the dusk may change to silver wand depending on its efficacy, but im undecided on what lore to take ont he second mage. Life, High, Death, or something completely different?

Shadow is a great lore on the L4, I agree there.

On a level 2, I can see a few options, which depend on the make up of the rest of your army. I would go for silver wand over jewel of the dusk every time on a level 2, and have banner of sorcery somewhere in the army. Having the extra spell increases your chances of getting the spell you want from a given lore by a lot. As he is your backup you could even save points by having a level 1 with silver wand.

Options are

Metal. Shadow lacks any reliable direct damage spells (especially against high I opponents) so metal covers this weakness - the reason I'd choose it over fire is because direct damge to low armour save opponents is not a problem for spearmen (and if you are giong for deadly use of shadow magic then spearmen provide the best combat synergy), whilst high armour saves are an issue.

Death. Personally I would prefer this on a radiant gem noble, whose Ld is higher, allowing better use of the signature spell. You save points, and get a model who can dish out damage in combat too. Doom and darkness is the other great attraction though since you often will have steadfast to worry about, and this allows you to break enemies with this bonus.

Life. Nice cheap spells that a level 2 can cast comfortably and a couple of good protective spells to offset high elf T3.

High. Cheap spells and an excellent "signature spell" in particular.

Shadow. Increase the odds of getting the really good spells, and the signature spell is one of the best going imo, especially with its cheap casting value. Possibly go jewel instead of wand if you do take this option.

ogresrdabest
29-08-2010, 19:40
hi guys, i haven't had a chance to read this forum yet but i would just like to give my opinion on High elves and more specifically teclis are really harsh. I have had a few games now with my deathstar unit of 28 white lions with full command and banner of sorcery.

I also incluse a 2+ 5+ save bsb to guard teclis with a champion with talisman of loec to hit things (best champion ever for challenging)

Basically how it works is you have 2d6 + 2d3 power dice and you 5 dice throne of vines, you then have a very high chance of getting irrisistable force and even if you roll double 6 you do the effects of the spell first so ignore it on a 2+ (common trick at our store) then i generally walk around with toughness 7 white lions with regen.

Now before anyone comes up with a super combo to R*** Teclis i understand there are enough items to blow teclis's head off but a lot of all comers list they wont have them. Even the scroll of 5+ you explode had low odds of killing teclis if i roll 5 dice and i heal them back quickly.

Even when i played a super slann list my friend has which was 100% rage worthy i managed to nuke his slann with my 2nd range 24 dwellers below, and before you mention him going first and nuking me with the same spell i had skeinsilver on a swordmaster champion and i had less units so had +2 for first go. Anyway back to him trying to kill teclis, when he cast dwellers below i scroll of hoethed it (yes teclis is that manly) and then killed him later on.

Unfortunately i did go on to lose this game due to me being a tard and due to my lack of defensive spells on my deathstar at the time (killing slann burns dice like paper) i fled from saurus who were 10 inches away and then got charged by skinks as i thought that charges were declared simultaneously.

The moral of this long probably boring story is TECLIS IS AWESOME!!!!!

and as my friends have frequently said the top tier of armies is now warriors of chaos, Lizards with wizards and Teclis (yes thats right not high elves but teclis.

Leatus
29-08-2010, 23:00
Opinions on Dragon Mage? With the gem of sunfire and a banner of sorcery else where in the army. Skeinsliver to try and ensure 1st turn, couldn't you use him to wipe out most of the warmachines before they take your out? With a free powerdice a spell and about 8 dice in general you could get off three lvl 2 fireballs on the first turn with gem of sunfire frying 3 warmachines? Am i missing something here..?

Without warmachines targeting him, couldn't he then dominate the enemy army?

VetSgtSchaeffer
30-08-2010, 05:28
Does anyone have any ideas on how to make the reavers work? I love the models and the idea of an army based on fast cav but they seem so expensive with no punch or survivability. Any ideas on spells, combos etc to help make these guys semi competitive? I dont expect to win every game I just want to have a chance at playing with models I love. I am also working on an empire knight horde list and having similar issues.

BBWags
30-08-2010, 14:21
I've been thinking about how to use the models that I enjoy to field a friendly style competitive list. I.E. Not powergaming, but solid. I was thinking about how shooting can whittle the enemy down a little bit, but I'm being told that armies close very quickly now, so I was thinking about archers vs. Lothern Sea Guard.

For a single point more, LSG loses 6" of range, gains 2 ranks of CC attacks, a 6+ armor save, and can take a "champion" with the extra attack.

So cons - lose 6" range and 1 point more expensive

And pros - ALOT more CC attacks, 6+ armor save, better leader

Would anyone be willing to say that LSG are NOT better than archers by ALOT?

If that is true, then I guess the next question is, "Is the ranged ability of the bow worth 3 more points per model using LSG instead of basic spearmen?" I guess we also have to keep in mind that the spearmen have a slightly better save than the LSG due to the shield they have as standard equipment.

What do you guys think? It just seems wrong to have an elf army that forgoes shooting . . . but with a unit or two of LSG, a couple RBTs, maybe a reaver bow and then magic, you have an army that could put some firepower on the enemy before they close, and then with the extra ranks and ASF, can do a pretty good job in CC as well.

Thoughts?

*edit*

Also, I second the question referring to the usefulness of the Reaver light cavalry unit. They are very nice models and they come in the starter set, so it'd be a shame to discard them outright in terms of gameplay.

Desert Rain
30-08-2010, 14:28
I will use ellyrian reavers instead of eagles, since I only have one and I'm not interested in spending money on more at the moment. Reavers can do the same job, but not as good and the new models are so awesome that I just have to have them in my army whether they are good or not.

Regarding LSG I do not really like them. They are OK but using archers and spears fits my play style better than using LSG does. The only reason for me using them now is because I want to use my maiden guard miniatures and I don't have enough painted spearmen and replace to replace them. I like to have a dedicated role for each unit, hence I use archers for shooting and spears for close combat. Others might like them because of the versatility.

Tarian
30-08-2010, 16:25
LSG are very flexible, and S&S + Fight in 4 ranks makes them intimidating for most core troops. They are very expensive though. I typically use them to hang back and provide covering fire while protecting my mages/Bolt Throwers, so I like them for that role, as I despise HE archers.

puckus10
30-08-2010, 21:54
Does anyone have any ideas on how to make the reavers work? I love the models and the idea of an army based on fast cav but they seem so expensive with no punch or survivability. Any ideas on spells, combos etc to help make these guys semi competitive?

If you use these guys which i probably will you will need to use them in Hit and Run tactics. Definitely buy bows and keep the spears. I would use shadow with them to make your opponents more crappy than they are in close combat. Im thinking of converting them from silver helms and using two units of 16.

mabrowning
30-08-2010, 23:21
2 units of 16 Reavers? Good luck with that... Just think of what else you could get with 672 points!

Bloody Nunchucks
30-08-2010, 23:58
i like sea guard, the only time i dont use them is in lower point tournaments. recently in a 1200 point list i used 3 units of ten archers, two bolt throwers a level 3 mage with ethreal and wand, then a unit of DP's with eternal flame, and a unit of PG

BBWags
31-08-2010, 00:36
I like to have a dedicated role for each unit, hence I use archers for shooting and spears for close combat. Others might like them because of the versatility.

I understand this reasoning, but I guess I'm not sure if it as applicable when the difference between a completely one dimensional unit and a much more flexible unit is a measly 1 point...

I would love for someone to show me where MY reasoning is wrong, however, especially because the major difference is the range of the two units and I think many people would put their archers more toward the back of their deployment, say on a hill, and position the LSG on the front lines, which would by and large negate that range difference.

But hey, I'm playing theory hammer right now until the IoB box comes out, so more experienced generals, please show me the error of my ways!! :-)

wilsongrahams
31-08-2010, 10:03
I think it's just preference. Sea Guard ARE expensive if you are going to use them as Spearmen so Desert Rain's logic isn't off at all. If you want a unit of archers that can be a little tougher and fight out a few rounds of combat then they are a great idea. It really depends upon how they fit into the army as a whole because if you are playing aggressively then you will really want the Sea Guard advancing and so will only get one or two shots off per game - and then become expensive Spearmen where a dedicated Archers unit will be firing all game hopefully. If you play defensively then they are great as even Archers get charged when you have nothing left to defend them, and if your opponent is closing then the shorter range isn't an issue.

BBWags
31-08-2010, 12:32
Ok, here is my "final" draft of the list I'd presented before. I think I like this, but the rare choices do have me a bit concerned, most notably if either unit can be effective singly.

Mage - LVL 2, Silver Wand

20x LSG w/ Full Command

20x Spearmen w/ Full Command

20x Sword Masters of Hoeth w/ Full Command, Bladelord has Amulet of Light

Lion Chariot of Chrace (I know many people prefer Tiranoc Chariots but I can't get past the coolness factors of War Lions)

Great Eagle

Repeater Bolt Thrower

Do you think a single Great Eagle and/or a single Repeater Bolt Thrower is a good idea at this point level? Both seem like they might be highly situational as to their usefulness. Thoughts?


I think it's just preference. Sea Guard ARE expensive if you are going to use them as Spearmen so Desert Rain's logic isn't off at all. If you want a unit of archers that can be a little tougher and fight out a few rounds of combat then they are a great idea. It really depends upon how they fit into the army as a whole because if you are playing aggressively then you will really want the Sea Guard advancing and so will only get one or two shots off per game - and then become expensive Spearmen where a dedicated Archers unit will be firing all game hopefully. If you play defensively then they are great as even Archers get charged when you have nothing left to defend them, and if your opponent is closing then the shorter range isn't an issue.

I agree that if all you want is to use are their spears, you should just take spearmen. But that wasn't the question. I was comparing them to archers for those who want to use shooting. So the question is, if you want to have firepower in the core section of your list, why would you ever take archers over LSG? Yes, its one point more per model, and if you're running a REAL tight list, I suppose it might force you to use archers instead, but it seems like LSG can be just as effective as archers in the shooting department plus totally outshine them in the CC department.

wilsongrahams
31-08-2010, 14:01
Yes, you're right - that 1pt is worth it just for the armour. Having spears isn't much of a benefit because a unit deployed for shooting is rarely above two ranks anyway. If you pay an extra point again to give them shields then they will be much more surviveable from enemy artillery etc as very few long ranged shots are S3 or below.

As to your list - 1 RBT is good enough against a monstrous target or such, but is not much use when firing multiple shots for the points cost. I wouldn't worry here.
One Eagle however will take some fire on it's first turn and at best will probably only be able to take on single war machines before it bites the dust. It could be used to delay an otherwise fast unit such as Cavalry for a turn by getting them to charge the Eagle instead of marching so it still has use and for 50pts it's not a waste.

CmdrLaw
31-08-2010, 14:43
20x Sword Masters of Hoeth w/ Full Command, Bladelord has Amulet of Light


This will explode in a horrible shower of alot of points. Your not strong in the magic phase with only the lvl 2 with the silver wand so shooting and magic could wreck that unit. If you had the annulian crystal you will be a lot safer from enemy spells.

Consider a unit of 12 SM's or maybe 12 and 6 to present more targets. If you do want a big unit then go 18 6x3.


And yes I have said it a few times so far: LSG replace archers not spearmen.
Shooting formation is less of a problem with swift reform.

BBWags
31-08-2010, 15:41
Yes, you're right - that 1pt is worth it just for the armour. Having spears isn't much of a benefit because a unit deployed for shooting is rarely above two ranks anyway.

As CmdrLaw says below, I think the swift reform rules with the musician really allows LSG to utilize both their shooting and spears to full effect.


If you pay an extra point again to give them shields then they will be much more surviveable from enemy artillery etc as very few long ranged shots are S3 or below.

I just realized that I don't think I have a choice on whether to give them shields or not... the shields are molded onto the main body for the LSGs that come in the IoB set. So looks like I have to retool the list to make those points.


As to your list - 1 RBT is good enough against a monstrous target or such, but is not much use when firing multiple shots for the points cost.

So is the multiple fire mode not worthwhile simply in general, or just because I only have one RBT?


One Eagle however will take some fire on it's first turn and at best will probably only be able to take on single war machines before it bites the dust. It could be used to delay an otherwise fast unit such as Cavalry for a turn by getting them to charge the Eagle instead of marching so it still has use and for 50pts it's not a waste.

Any suggestions on what I could use the points on better?


This will explode in a horrible shower of alot of points. Your not strong in the magic phase with only the lvl 2 with the silver wand so shooting and magic could wreck that unit. If you had the annulian crystal you will be a lot safer from enemy spells.

Haha, I have the annulian crystal in the list, people say take the silver wand. I take the silver wand, people say take the annulian crystal. Haha.

At any rate, what better can I do for magic without taking an archmage? Isn't that a ton of points in a single character in such a small point game? Or does he make up his points without a doubt?

I will have to consider the various possibilities with those Sword Masters. Perhaps I can keep them in that big group if I can possibly get some way to protect them a little more?

Grantt
31-08-2010, 15:43
I've used swordmasters effectively in the 6x3 formation - high attack output and minimum template losses, with a rank to offer additional wounds. 1 unit chewed through 50 zombies, 25 ghouls and then 25 skeletons including the Vampire Lord General. I ended the battle with 6 models, but won every single round of combat.

LSG are amazing in a defensive set up, especially when you consider that casulties from Stand and Shoot stack with your CR. I tend to take 24-30, 6 wide. This gives at least 12 shots (more if you increase your width and take advantage of free reforms when winning combats) which against most infantry should give you 3 wounds (+3 CR). Stack this on top of a blistering CC with 4 ranks and you have a win. This is a tactic I have used several times against several armies and it has yet to fail, though I have yet to take on a template-heavy opponent. If I did, I'd probably just stretch to two ranks, Stand and shoot when charged (24 shots should cause 5 wounds so I shouldn't lose too much from my rank bonus) and reform when I win combat.

Tips; Keep both your general and BSB within range to use their leadership. BSB - don't leave home without it. Once one unit flees your whole line will crumble. Flank attacks really hurt when you don't get supporting attacks.

That's my two cents.

Loopstah
31-08-2010, 15:43
What's the best formation to field Dragon Princes in?

I have enough for one unit of 20, two units of 10 or three units of 6, 7, 7.

Tarian
31-08-2010, 16:33
I'd field them 2x10, as 5 wide, 2 deep. Otherwise, they're very vulnerable to nasty templates.

CmdrLaw
31-08-2010, 16:40
Haha, I have the annulian crystal in the list, people say take the silver wand. I take the silver wand, people say take the annulian crystal. Haha.

At any rate, what better can I do for magic without taking an archmage? Isn't that a ton of points in a single character in such a small point game? Or does he make up his points without a doubt?

Well with the Annulian Crystal and the natural +1 to dispel your getting alot of counter magic for your buck, silver wand is also useful for getting some extra spells but the seerstaff might be better if you spefically want a couple of spells to support your troops.

Throwing more dice at 2 spells generally more effective than less dice at 3.

Hannimar
31-08-2010, 19:21
LSG are amazing in a defensive set up, especially when you consider that casulties from Stand and Shoot stack with your CR. I tend to take 24-30, 6 wide. This gives at least 12 shots (more if you increase your width and take advantage of free reforms when winning combats) which against most infantry should give you 3 wounds (+3 CR).



Could you please point me to the BRB where it is written that Stand and Shoot casualties stack up with CR? I seemed to have missed this in this edition and thought it just gives you the opportunity to inflict some casualties and maybe panic the unit, but does not grant CR.

Few things: Had 9 games with my 3250 High Elf force and unfortunately I've won all of them. It seems that the Asur are top tier at the moment and it seems that 90% of combats are won by the elves from the start. The re-roll in every turn made our army a monster in cc. Funny story - my beastmen on the other hand lost 7 out of 7 games so far :D

I found that for spearelves and Lsg's the best formation is 7x5. You get a nice amount of attacks and shooting as well as the ability to take a few casualties.

Silver Helms are also great in 7x2 or 8x2 formation with the ASF re-roll.

I also noticed that my swordmasters are no longer shot to pieces before they get a chance to fight. Suddenly our every unit is a great threat to the enemy and their major targets are not always the swordmasters.

Desert Rain
31-08-2010, 21:17
I understand this reasoning, but I guess I'm not sure if it as applicable when the difference between a completely one dimensional unit and a much more flexible unit is a measly 1 point...

I would love for someone to show me where MY reasoning is wrong, however, especially because the major difference is the range of the two units and I think many people would put their archers more toward the back of their deployment, say on a hill, and position the LSG on the front lines, which would by and large negate that range difference.

But hey, I'm playing theory hammer right now until the IoB box comes out, so more experienced generals, please show me the error of my ways!! :-)
There is nothing wrong with your reasoning. The reason why I don't really like the LSG is because they don't fit with the army that I'm playing. LSG are best suited in a fairly defensive army in which they can shine with their dual roles. So far I've used LSG in every list that I've made with the new rules and they have been used as a second archer unit with rearguard duties as well. They have done fairly well but I want to try a list in which I use those 200 points for another dedicated close combat unit instead and see if I prefer such a set up instead.

Nerje
01-09-2010, 01:31
LSG x 20: Deployed 10x2 for max shooting. When the opponent approaches, Swift reform + shoot, stand and shoot charge reaction, 4 ranks of ASF w/re-rolls, countercharge with swordmasters. I think LSG are my favourite HE unit. Of course they'll work better with actual bolt-thrower or archer support, but since everything wounds on 6s these days, those LSG are a very muddy proposition for your opponent to charge.

wilsongrahams
01-09-2010, 10:22
As CmdrLaw says below, I think the swift reform rules with the musician really allows LSG to utilize both their shooting and spears to full effect.

I just realized that I don't think I have a choice on whether to give them shields or not... the shields are molded onto the main body for the LSGs that come in the IoB set. So looks like I have to retool the list to make those points.

So is the multiple fire mode not worthwhile simply in general, or just because I only have one RBT?

Any suggestions on what I could use the points on better?

I will have to consider the various possibilities with those Sword Masters. Perhaps I can keep them in that big group if I can possibly get some way to protect them a little more?

When I meant deployed for effectiveness - I also meant for Stand and Shoot - meaning you have to reform the turn before you may get charged - which could even be turn one! You may also simply not have room around them to reform that early in the game. I was thinking more of worse case scenarios. I intend using LSG a lot in my games right alongside two units of 32 Spearmen.

Those 50pts will be better spent on Shields for the LSG and the other 30 on whatever you like - two Swordmasters even.

As to Swordmasters - I use 20 with my Prince regularly in a 7 wide formation giving me 3 ranks so can take 7 hits before I lose a single attack - the carnage 24 ASF S5 (some at 6) attacks can do normally makes up for more than what you will take back due to Step Up, but you do have to choose your target carefully - and avoid the hardest enemy - wiping out easier targets several times per game is much easier to get the Victory Points back for your losses. To protect your Swordmasters, just keep them as close as you can behind another combat unit, then charge them at seperate units one left and the other right. Spearmen are greta shields here because they're cheap and with Swordmasters behind them they will take a lot of fire!

As to the Bolt Thrower multiple shots - Whilst good at long range, the quantity of shots from one War Machine isn't enough to seriously harm an enemy unit other than maybe another War Machine. For 100pts you could get 9 Archers which would do the same job just as effectively and not die as easily either. That's why I concluded that the single shot high strength shot is the better use unless you can fire several at one enemy unit - the chance of breaking them and the panic scattering half an army on turn one whilst they are still so close to their own board edge is worth the try - but you will need three at least for this for most units - assuming most players still have 20 models in their average unit you'll need to kill 5 models, and don't forget you'll be at long range too. One RBT with a single shot can cause serious harm to Trolls etc now that they will likely be ranked up too, and you can still use the old method to fire down the side of cavalry units. Another use for multiple shots is to hunt a lone character where the extra rolls to hit means you don't waste a shot if you roll one miss.

Grantt
01-09-2010, 17:13
Could you please point me to the BRB where it is written that Stand and Shoot casualties stack up with CR? I seemed to have missed this in this edition and thought it just gives you the opportunity to inflict some casualties and maybe panic the unit, but does not grant CR.

I'll have a hunt for it. I remember gasping and falling out of my chair when I found it and it's backed up by players at my local game club, so I'm sure it's relevant. If not, the swift reform before a charge would mitigate this.

Though I'm sure it adds to CR. I'll check later when I can get to my BRB.

Edit - I can't find it. What a noob. Odd, because this particular rule was made apparent to my by a GW staff member & I disticntly remember reading it somwhere (I've searched the website too).

Still, the stand and shoot destruction will definately make a dent in whatever charges you, providing a nice return attack. Sea Guard are still ruinously good in defencive roles.

Grantt
01-09-2010, 18:10
Oh, and RBT's are awful. 2 wounds and hordes have changed this from a very useful, effective weapon to an awful one shot blunder.

They've not made any real impact in any of the battles I've fought (except in my points), though I've never really used war machines particularly extensively.

Loopstah
01-09-2010, 18:41
So would I be better fielding my Spearmen as 5 ranks of 6 or 6 ranks of 5?

Are the 3 or 4 extra attacks gained worth having 1 rank less and being open to more return attacks on units larger than 5 across?

Tarian
01-09-2010, 19:13
I field my spears as narrow as possible. They strike very deep, and you want to minimize attacks back at them. Thus, I'd go 5 wide, 6 deep. (Actually, I'd go 5x5, but that's just me!)

Hannimar
01-09-2010, 23:12
I'll have a hunt for it. I remember gasping and falling out of my chair when I found it and it's backed up by players at my local game club, so I'm sure it's relevant. If not, the swift reform before a charge would mitigate this.

Though I'm sure it adds to CR. I'll check later when I can get to my BRB.

Edit - I can't find it. What a noob. Odd, because this particular rule was made apparent to my by a GW staff member & I disticntly remember reading it somwhere (I've searched the website too).

Still, the stand and shoot destruction will definately make a dent in whatever charges you, providing a nice return attack. Sea Guard are still ruinously good in defencive roles.

Yes it will deal quite a number of casualties. I was supriesed you mentioned the CR as my gaming group didn't find the info, and it seems we were right. I was worried with the prospect of charging my friend's 10x3 horde corsairs with handbows ;)

CmdrLaw
02-09-2010, 11:07
I am in serious debate as to the Lore to Take with my archmage, have tried life a couple of times and while regrowth is amazing if you roll of the less amusing spells swapping to the signature is pointless in a PG bunker.

Shadow is the main other consideration, my main opponents are skaven and chaos warriors and thier main strengths are T tests and Hellcannons, both of which HE's do very very badly with.

Now the T boost from Life is the most useful with these main threats, but it might not go off and can only buff 1 unit, and Dwellers is very good against alot of horde units.

But shadow has alot of pontential as well, great synergy with HE's.

Ahhhhh the decisions!

Von Wibble
02-09-2010, 14:18
For me Shadow wins out. Comparing the lores

Lore ability - Personally I prefer shadow. There aren't that many things that benefit from healing - just eagles, chariots and characters, and the benefit is small in any case. But being able to put a key combat character where you need him (and where the enemy didn't expect) or move your archmage away from teh action if necessary - priceless.

Signature spell - Life's is a bit meh really. Whilst I would never advise a PG bunker (people will throw more attacks the mages way as he's easier to kill, and your own attacks are less likely to reduce enemy capability - white lions and swordmasters are much better bunker units), I think that relying on magic to protect your troops is risky. The problem is that it only affects the mage's unit. Shadow meanwhile is a very useful spell, adversely affecting enemy shooting, movement or fighting. Very flexible in its use, and dirt cheap too.

Direct offensive - Dwellers below beats Pit of Shades becasue of the scatter, though against chaos its pretty likely a lot of strength tests will be passed. But Shield of Thorns doesn't really appeal at all, whilst penumbral pendulum at lest has the advantage a well placed mage can nobble a couple of chariots. Slight advantage to life, but if you want aggressive magic for killing chaos then metal is a better lore choice, and fire is better for skaven.

Unit buffs/debuffs - The best spell is undoubtedly the +2T spell, but reducing enemy S or T by D3 comes a close second, and with shadow you are more likely to get 1 or the other in your hand. Throne of vines is OK but if you are casting that then you are losing the ability to cast a different spell, and against S3 or 4, the difference between +2T and +4T is not that great. And of course boosting spearmen to S8 is huge.

Which leaves Regrowth - undoubtedly a great spell.

Overall, to me shadow has 4 very strong spells, one being the signature spell, plus a very good lore ability and 1 very situational spell (Pendulum).

Life has 4 very strong spells, one of which only benefits you if you cast other spells too, but a weaker lore ability, below par signature spell, and 1 very situational spell (Shield).

On the LSG archer comparison, I haven't seen any comments on the fact that archers have 6" more range. This means if you get first turn you will get a volley with them (unlikely with LSG), and bearing in mind average charge ranges, there is a much better chance of getting in a volley with effectively a +1 to hit at a later stage of the battle. Combined with the lower points cost this seems to me to give them the decisive edge over the lsg if used in this role.

LSG have more armour, true. A 5+ save for 2 more points. But in combat, chances are the times when this will come into play are limited. Enemy units that aren't troubled by the number of ASF reroll to hit attacks are pretty much going to beat you, armour or no. Meanwhile, shooting at your archers should be limited because your 30" range ensures handguns and repeater crossbows have to move to get to you. War machines have plenty of better targets than archers and smaller LSG units.

To me, if you are giong to use LSG for your firepower, take a larger unit of 24 or so, in 2 ranks of 12. Then use the swift reform when the enemy gets near to go into more ranks. For me, Desert Rain has it right - they have to suit the playstyle of the army. If you are more likely to advance, which is a sensible strategy even when playing defensively, they aren't as good as a combination of spears and archers.

CmdrLaw
02-09-2010, 14:26
Whilst I would never advise a PG bunker (people will throw more attacks the mages way as he's easier to kill, and your own attacks are less likely to reduce enemy capability

Never leave home without Forlaiths Robe, at that point the PG bunker becomes amazing. Stick Korhil in there and your safe from challenges and the R&F have a 4+ ward against miscasts and are Stubborn.



On the LSG archer comparison, I haven't seen any comments on the fact that archers have 6" more range.


This has been commented on quite a bit, generally the range difference is negated by the fact the LSG can be a lot further forward as they don't need to be protected at the back.

Von Wibble
02-09-2010, 14:44
But even if deployed at the front of your deployment zone, all the enemy has to do is setup up a tiny bit behind his own and if you get first turn your LSG have to move to fire, and lose half their shots (and -1 to hit). Also being at the front of the deployment zone can restrict other deployment, whilst setting up 3-4 inches further back (on a hill if possible) leaves the rest of the army a lot more freedom.

As to the mage, my own one has talisman of preservation and staff of solidity (plus optional ironcurse icon). I face too many chaos knights and daemons to be able to trust the robe.

CmdrLaw
02-09-2010, 14:58
Well the enemy can deploy further back to negate regular archers as well and you can always let them come to you, but situational examples aside your never going to have archers on the front lines whereas you can with the LSG.

I tend to just remove shooting from my considerations altogether and just run spearmen, but thats because I am not a fan of playing defensively as other armies can easily out shoot the High Elves.

And yes if you face alot of deamons and chaos knights your going to be unfortunate, but thats another benefit of lore of shadows, bounce around the place.

Loopstah
02-09-2010, 20:23
So Shadow Warriors?

Are they worth taking all the time in an all comers list?

I really wish I hadn't dropped them when cutting my 2K down to 1.5K today as I was slaughtered by war machines they could have deployed behind.

Is it worth taking the champion or just leaving them bare?

What unit size is best minimum or larger?

Would a couple of units of 5 work well? One unit works out the same points as a Chariot but are pretty much guaranteed to get at the war machines.

Also what about giving a noble that item that allows them to scout and joining them to a unit?

Gorak
02-09-2010, 22:52
OK so after mulling over and showming my wife the two different IoB modles, I've(with my wife's guiding hand) decided to go with *gasp* HIGH ELVES! I know many will remember my fight against the SoA and greatweapons....so I need some adivce I'm a compteive player but not too over the top ala two HPA ect I play for fun and in local tournies so all things are open. Now i really like the IoB modles and the price tag so will be wanting to use LSG and SM.(I have monoposed pewter and monkey hands) so any tips? I would also like to use the griifion if this is at all a usefull model.

Tarian
02-09-2010, 23:03
LSG and SM are both solid choices, so nothing really wrong with them. Griffon is not too good of a choice in my opinion for competitive games, but is friendlier than a dragon.

Nerje
03-09-2010, 05:36
But even if deployed at the front of your deployment zone, all the enemy has to do is setup up a tiny bit behind his own and if you get first turn your LSG have to move to fire, and lose half their shots (and -1 to hit). Also being at the front of the deployment zone can restrict other deployment, whilst setting up 3-4 inches further back (on a hill if possible) leaves the rest of the army a lot more freedom.


LSG are very functional, especially on hills. They can absorb charges very well with shields/spears/stand and shoot all serving to chip down a rank or two of cheap horde units, then countercharge the flank with SM or a chariot or whatever (down the hill for +1 CR is even nicer). With a combo like that on a hill, lone infantry blocks will either have to fall into the trap or cop a few wounds when wandering past (and probably eat the countercharge anyway when it gets tied up).

LSG: very functional utility unit. Things aren't so black+white anymore and you can't win a game on paper, so functional combinations are key.

CmdrLaw
03-09-2010, 10:19
I think the elves mobility and the new swift reform rules are a real boost to mobile hard hitting HE force, so I'm sticking with pure spearmen for the moment, not a fan of defensive play (and hate gunlines)

Although my plans were horribly thrawted once when I failed 3 swift reform checks (with BSB rerolls) on turn 1 leaving half my army floundering around like dying fish.

CmdrLaw
03-09-2010, 10:35
Hmmm just had a random thought, it's an abuse of the elite army rule but would be hilarious.

Know SM's tend to work best in small supporting units, so what about taking nothing but 6 man SM units for your entire special allowance. You can get 10 units into 2000 points easily, so thats 60 SM's running all over the place hacking down what every is in their path and any massed archer or artillery fire will be watered down by the seer number of units.

Would almost definately fall over but would also be very funny.


Let's say 4 of your units jump on a horde, 1 to each flank and 2 to the front, thats 48 STR 5 rerolling hit attacks! And you still have 1000 points of army to play with.

Trains_Get_Robbed
03-09-2010, 15:06
Sorry to say, but I just don't feel s.m are worth their points compared to w.l and p.g in blocks -run in small units like cmdrlaw is sayingdoes work however, they/ the tactic serves more as roadblocks.

Desert Rain
03-09-2010, 15:09
Out of the three elites I believe that the swordmasters are the ones that work best in smaller units. 12 to 18 seems like a good size to me.

Phoenix Guards are anvils, whereas swodmasters are hammers, so they need to be in bigger blocks of about 20 to 25.

White Lions are more flexible and can work well in both small and large units.

b4z
03-09-2010, 15:29
I am just starting WFB and High Elves [like many others no doubt] and i was thinking of running 4 Great Eagles in an army list... Can anyone give me any advice, or warn me off it, etc? [Because i will be buying the Great Eagle models in the future]

I want to use them to kill enemy warmachines and just generally distract/annoy things, i think for 50 points they seem a lot of fun :) Also i love the idea of them patrolling the skies, having recently read the entire High Elves Army Book fluff, and also GameZone miniatures do some amazing sculpts!

Bloody Nunchucks
03-09-2010, 15:45
couple of points here:
- i dont think that shadow warriors play a part in our army now, at least not in a ll comers lists
- i like to use SM's in 14 man blocks, PG in 20-25 man blocks and WL's in either one
- the archmage with folaraths robe and the 35point thing that makes weapons non magical is pretty cool, i put that in my PG block that has a banner of sorcery and a BSB or korhil in it.
-seaguard are cool, i recently tried 5 units of 10 atchers instead of 2 seaguard units in a 2k game, it worked ok but the archers wll almost never get their points back or wipe a unit out. all they garantee is that they will lose you whatever points you invest in them
-i take two eagles in my all comers list so that i can still take out dwarf WM's, although purple sun does that as well.

CmdrLaw
03-09-2010, 15:50
I am just starting WFB and High Elves [like many others no doubt] and i was thinking of running 4 Great Eagles in an army list... Can anyone give me any advice, or warn me off it, etc? [Because i will be buying the Great Eagle models in the future]


Yeah Eagles are great, you can also stick a noble on an eagle and the combined profile gives him additional wounds. But thats to taste obviously.

Killng war machines is their primary use but they have alot of other useful roles.
With RBT's taking a hit recently they are certainly a desirable rare choice now.

Just be carefull of hellcannons!

warriornick
03-09-2010, 20:49
For our core choice,i think 2 blocks of thirty spearmen is the key.

As was stated above most armies can outshoot us,so if you need to go to the other player You will be needing these extra models.

The only advantage that i can see in LSG is that you can bunch them in one big unit that you can very effectively buff with flaming sword of ruin cause it buffs bith their shooting and cc capabilities.

Tarian
03-09-2010, 21:55
I've been playing with LSG, used to use only spears. I must say, while our ranged isn't that good, it is better than having nothing, and S3 bows can occasionally inflict wounds here and there to knock off ranks/harass light troops.

ScytheSwathe
04-09-2010, 10:30
I use sea guard as spearmen-plus. The bows are useful to prevent enemy wizards leaving their bunkers to avoid a charge, and with swift reform are useful for dealing with fast cav and the like.
It just gives you that extra option

Kloud13
04-09-2010, 16:55
I find for the cost of a unit of 30 Seaguard, I can get 30 Spears, and 10 Archers. Then instead of the Seaguard having to decide to move or shoot, My archers can just shoot, and my spears can move (and march) towards a fight.

Paraelix
05-09-2010, 06:49
Oh dear god. I don't know if anyone has suggested this before, but a Staffer told me today he planned to use it...

High Elf Noble/Prince, Radiant Gem of Hoeth, Dragon Armour and steed, and stuff to flavour.
In a large unit of Dragon Princes.

The Noble uses Lore of Life and casts Regen... There is no way to cancel the Regen as flaming attacks cannot harm them ;-;

Trains_Get_Robbed
05-09-2010, 07:01
^^^ Thats quite interesting, will have to try that some time.

eldaran
05-09-2010, 08:00
In addition, what's you guys' thoughts on using a prince with radiant gem, armour of caledor, guardian phoenix and a great weapon using spirit leech? it's about 240 points, but i'd've thought it'd be pretty good, as well as a good representation of a Sapherian Pirince...

Desert Rain
05-09-2010, 09:29
The Spirit Leech Prince is very good, or so I'm told. I haven't tried it myself but combining him with and Archmage with Lore of Shadows sounds like a winning strategy.

The regen-prince in a dragon prince unit is a neat idea as well.

ScytheSwathe
05-09-2010, 10:58
I find for the cost of a unit of 30 Seaguard, I can get 30 Spears, and 10 Archers. Then instead of the Seaguard having to decide to move or shoot, My archers can just shoot, and my spears can move (and march) towards a fight.
I see that, I thought about it alot, and definately see your point; but heres my logic.
I run a unit of 23 seaguard with my archmage, this way they can sit back and still do something, including act as spearman reserves for flanking etc, but anyway...
For that price i can get 23 spearmen and about 8 archers. Lets assume i can scrape together the points to bring tht unit up to 10, just for the sake of argument.

10 archers get 6" more range, but the seaguard will almost certainly move 5" in the first turn, so the archers only really have 1" more effective range. -1 to hit because the seaguard moved, but becuase ill deploy 12x2 im getting an average of 7.66 hits on 5+ with them anyway, compared to only 5 for the archers. At close range, seaguard get 11.5, and the archers get 6.66. Close range for the seaguard is only 3" less for the seaguard, and again, theyre probably closer to begin with.

even after i reform to 6x4, im still dishing out more shots with seaguard, almost certainly at close range if ive bothered to reform, while it may not be close range for the archers.

The seaguard can then volley fire for 18 shots per turn if the guy i thought would charge decided against it, and still cause more damage than the archers, and can stand and shoot in the hope it will at least help knock off a rank. And all that wrongly assumes that i can field 10 archers without dropping something else significant.

With all this in mind, the pure damage output is rarely as significant as the flexibility from having more ranged potential, but i still see it as getting more for less by using seaguard.

Admittedly archers gives more more bodies on the field, and can still shoot while the seaguard are in combat (but shoot at what?!), and give the ability to march freely back to my spear unit, but are simply less effective for the points when its a unit which wants to be held back in reserve due to the archmage anyway.



High Elf Noble/Prince, Radiant Gem of Hoeth, Dragon Armour and steed, and stuff to flavour.
In a large unit of Dragon Princes
Ive not tried it but it crossed my mind; It will only ever be 5+ without a proper mage casting the buff-all spell. So you might as well go with Shield of saphrey instead. Does the same job, gives you drain magic for free, is easier to cast, and can be cast on other units, though you do lose the healing ability.

Following on from something i read on the skaven page, If i take banner of eternal flame and the amulet of light on the same unit, can i use them to get flaming-magical attacks? The flaming attacks rule says weapons with magical attacks cannot be affected, the amulet says attacks in CC are magic. Do they counteract?



*EDIT* apologies for wall of text

GenerationTerrorist
05-09-2010, 15:33
I tried out something a bit different yesterday, playing against a nasty Skaven list, and ran a Lvl4 with Beasts (instead of Life) carrying the Seerstaff and 4+ Ward item in his Phoenix Guard bunker.

They were absolutely devastating and became a real hammer of a unit in the middle of my line.

Loopstah
05-09-2010, 15:57
Oh dear god. I don't know if anyone has suggested this before, but a Staffer told me today he planned to use it...

High Elf Noble/Prince, Radiant Gem of Hoeth, Dragon Armour and steed, and stuff to flavour.
In a large unit of Dragon Princes.

The Noble uses Lore of Life and casts Regen... There is no way to cancel the Regen as flaming attacks cannot harm them ;-;

I am so going to use that next game, I already run this setup except I usually pick Death instead of Life but that is an awesome idea. Unstoppable regen :D

Paraelix
05-09-2010, 20:52
Following on from something i read on the skaven page, If i take banner of eternal flame and the amulet of light on the same unit, can i use them to get flaming-magical attacks? The flaming attacks rule says weapons with magical attacks cannot be affected, the amulet says attacks in CC are magic. Do they counteract?


No. The Magic Attacks banner precludes Magic Weapons. So the instance in which it could not be used is Chaos Knights with Ensorcelled Weapons... Having Magical Attacks shouldn't make a difference.

Desert Rain
05-09-2010, 21:04
It does work with the amulet of light, since it doesn't give the unit magical weapons, just magical attacks. It wouldn't work on chaos knights though since their enscrolled weapons are specifically stated to be magic weapons.

Foxbat
05-09-2010, 22:46
No. The Magic Attacks banner precludes Magic Weapons... However, as the rules for the Bow of the Seafarer and the Reaver Bow both tell us to treat the bow “...as a normal longbow with the following exception...” (HE Army Book, pg 99), it would appear that these two magic weapons have an exception to the Flaming Attacks special rule as a"normal longbow" would gain the Flaming Attacks special rule.

Damocles8
05-09-2010, 22:56
However, as the rules for the Bow of the Seafarer and the Reaver Bow both tell us to treat the bow “...as a normal longbow with the following exception...” (HE Army Book, pg 99), it would appear that these two magic weapons have an exception to the Flaming Attacks special rule as a"normal longbow" would gain the Flaming Attacks special rule.

That's a bit of a stretch....

Foxbat
05-09-2010, 23:34
That's a bit of a stretch....Maybe, but until GW amends the text to delete this reference or provides guidance as to how to interpret this, it’s RAW for now.

Kloud13
06-09-2010, 08:11
I was thinkin. Take an Archmage with Life, and a Lvl 2 mage with Seerstaff, and choose Flames of the Pheonix from High Magic. Now Cast Throne of Vines, and Flames of the Phoenix in same turn, and on your opponents turn, at begining of magic phase, Flames of the Phoenix burns him, reminding him to dispell it, but should he dispell it? and Dispell Throne of Vines as well? how many power dice will you waste to dispell 2 remains in play spells? And if your Lvl 2 has also cast Drain Magic, your opponents magic phase may become quite managable.

ScytheSwathe
06-09-2010, 08:27
I have the same logic with shadow. Theres 2 remains in play spells there, and then the flames/throne depending on which lore i take (and how lucky i am).

high elves are quite good at stunting enemy magic phases

CmdrLaw
06-09-2010, 13:09
However, as the rules for the Bow of the Seafarer and the Reaver Bow both tell us to treat the bow “...as a normal longbow with the following exception...” (HE Army Book, pg 99), it would appear that these two magic weapons have an exception to the Flaming Attacks special rule as a"normal longbow" would gain the Flaming Attacks special rule.

Yeah I would be punching myself if I tried to pull that one, seeing as you buy them from the list of items called "Magic Weapons"

Tarian
06-09-2010, 23:43
I use the -d3 Toughness hex with Flames of the Phoenix. Reminds them to dispel pretty well.

Jericho
07-09-2010, 00:12
I hadn't thought of that combo yet, sounds pretty scary :D

I'm really loving the new synergies between spell lores, ones like Shadow can make just about any other spell lore 5x as devastating :D

Loopstah
07-09-2010, 18:56
How workable would a Nagarythe army be?

Lord options would be Alith Anar or a Prince.
Hero options would be Mage or a Noble.
Core options would be Archers only.
Special options would be Ellyrian Reavers and Shadow Warriors.
Rare options would be Great Eagles.

Would using archers as blocks of infantry be a complete waster of time?

I'd probably include the two magic bows and the Shadow Armour in there somewhere as well.

I know it would probably suck big time but I'd like to do a nice themed army for my High Elves as a hodgepodge just doesn't enthuse me as much.

Kloud13
07-09-2010, 20:14
maybe kitbash some HE, and DE kits to make some Shadowy type spear elves, even use bows and use seaguard rules. Put Shadow wariors in an Tirinoc chariot. And make some DE Executioner models less evil lookin, and more High elvish, and you got a unit that can use the White Lion rules. Then you have a nice Nagarythe themed army.

PS, find some female elf mage models, paint em kinda dark, and they would fit right in as well.

Loopstah
07-09-2010, 20:17
maybe kitbash some HE, and DE kits to make some Shadowy type spear elves, even use bows and use seaguard rules. Put Shadow wariors in an Tirinoc chariot. And make some DE Executioner models less evil lookin, and more High elvish, and you got a unit that can use the White Lion rules. Then you have a nice Nagarythe themed army.

PS, find some female elf mage models, paint em kinda dark, and they would fit right in as well.

Yes but then its just a normal High Elf army with converted models.

Tarian
07-09-2010, 23:13
A fun themed list is the Lothern Sea Guard (For those of you around for SoC)

Use either a foot or flying mount Lord/Heroes, then

Core: LSG (Obviously!)
Specials: Shadow Warriors
Rares: RBTs/Eagles

It's not something most people see anymore (since SoC, may Sea Patrol never return...) and still has bite, though the specials choices... yeah...

Marlow
08-09-2010, 07:45
I use the -d3 Toughness hex with Flames of the Phoenix. Reminds them to dispel pretty well.That sounds like a very good combination.

YoungKing
10-09-2010, 06:49
Hey guys, been reading a lot on here the last few days after I decided I wanted to start up HE because my two friends are getting back into Fantasy and I simply love the models.

I'm having trouble getting a basic 1250 point list going, maybe I want too much though.

I'll be going magic heavy as I get to higher points and still want magic punch at this point level too. So, here's what I'm thinking/trying for:

Mage, Lvl2, Silver Wand

Noble BsB, AoC, GW, GP

32 Spearmen, FC

20 Phoenix Guard, FC, Banner of Sorcery

10 White Lions

5 Dragon Princes

That's probably a little over, at about 1300. The problems I'm having is equipping the Mage and BsB, figuring out how to run the Spear Elves and hit the 313 point core (that unit is 313 points, and adding in the DP and WL.

What I'm going for in this particular list is the core of my army being the Mage, Phoenix Guard, and Spearmen. That alone comes to 826 points. So maybe I need to cut back on some PG? Take only one of the WL and DP, maybe bump either up a few models(15 for WL), take two units of 20 Spearmen? Actually, the Mage, 15PG(FC, BoS), and 2x20 Spearelves(FC) comes to only 868, maybe that's a better option? That leaves me only enough points for a BsB and one other special unit, so what would you guys recommend?

Thanks,

YK.

Tarian
10-09-2010, 18:48
I'd say use the Lions, as the DPs would be on their own out there. Another option would be to take 2 blocks of 15 Spears with Full Command and a magic banner, like the Eternal Flame, on one of them.

Here's a quick list I hammered out @1300:

Mage
Level 2
Silver Wand
Shadow Magic

Battle Standard
Standard
Armor of Caledor
Great Weapon
Guardian Phoenix

Spears x15
Standard
Champion
Musician
Banner of Eternal Flame

Spears x15
Standard
Champion

Phoenix Guard x20
Standard
Banner of Sorcery
Keeper of the Flame

White Lions of Chrace x15
Standard
Guardian

Edit: Saw you're playing 1250, not 1300, so... fixed list, now it's 1249.
Edit2: Gah! Half a point over on the Heroes slot... Need to drop something, probably Guardian Phoenix.

Hashulaman
11-09-2010, 00:17
The main reason I'm truned off to any calvary is due to what terain does to them. Dragon Princes can take 50 point standards so there are two banners that ignore terrain. For me the mobility is the main issue with calvary. They have always been good for being mobile. I'm not so much worried about flanking to negatng ranks, but to do enough wounds to where they lost a couple ranks if you combine the DP flank with a frontal attack as well.


Also that Enfeebling Foe/Flames of the Phoenix is a great idea, shame it will rarely go off unless we take teclis.


Is taking Tyrion with Dragon Princes a good idea? I'd like to try it sometime when I re form my HE army, need more core to get to the 25% mark.

TheKingInYellow
11-09-2010, 05:03
Tyrion has been severely hurt by the inability to take a regen and ward. He's still hard to kill, but he's no longer practically invincible. Still he has a 1+/4++ ward or regen, is immune to flaming attacks, and he's got a 2++ versus spells.

He's been buffed with his breath weapon usable in combat, but it's a lot harder to justify his points now.

Desert Rain
11-09-2010, 08:42
A fully equipped Prince is generally not far behind Tyrion, for about 130 points less.

Compel
11-09-2010, 10:04
I've got 2 Elf hero models that I'm wanting to use in a 2k list build around a 20-ish unit of swordmasters, 28-ish Seaguard and 32-ish spearmen (the list isn't decided yet).

Since my previous attempts to have a mounted general didn't quite work, I'm considering using one of these 2 as them, one is armed with a cloak and greatsword (Aenur from Mordheim), the other is the classic Warhammer Quest Elf Ranger with 2 hand weapons.

What I did previously was have a mounted General, then have Aenur as a Noble for the sword masters. The Noble did well, but my General kept on having a chronic case of 'Organ Gun to the Face' along with all his Knights.

So, any thoughts or opinions on good ways to run either of these guys as a General on foot?

Francis
11-09-2010, 10:31
Basically my favourite build for the Aenur model would be the swordmaster prince. To qoute from another post I just made:

"Armour of caledor (that way he won't die to rank and file), Guardian Phoenix (because we all like ward saves), White sword (for killing blow) and Talisman of Loec (you really want to roll killing blows against enemy lords)."

As for the other one I really dont know. Maybe Fencers blade, Armour of Protection and Potion of Strength?

YoungKing
12-09-2010, 02:07
In a 2000-2500 is it worth taking a Noble with a Star Lance and Enchanted Shield in a unit of Dragon Princes?

Was considering getting the kit with the BSB and mounted Prince/Noble, any thoughts?

Also, does anyone think it's even worth it to buy IoB as a new HE player? Nobody here really likes Reavers, or the Lord on a Griffon, and Sea Guard seem to be per a players preference.

Nerje
12-09-2010, 05:07
In a 2000-2500 is it worth taking a Noble with a
Also, does anyone think it's even worth it to buy IoB as a new HE player? Nobody here really likes Reavers, or the Lord on a Griffon, and Sea Guard seem to be per a players preference.

Yes, yes and yes. IoB is full of fantastic models and the people round here are only giving tactics based on competitive efficiency.

Personally I love having 2x units of 5 reavers to vanguard and begin dictating the flow of play before the game starts. I also love having a Prince of Griffon to fly out of nowhere and start ripping big holes in weaker infantry (there's also something to be said for a flying terror-monster causing big blocks of Skaven to run from 22" away).

However in a comp environment, you probably won't get those points back too quickly; don't take what is said in these tactics threads as gospel unless you're really interested in dominating at tournaments.

Trains_Get_Robbed
12-09-2010, 07:12
Tarian: Here's a quick list I hammered out @1300:

Mage
Level 2
Silver Wand
Shadow Magic

Battle Standard
Standard
Armor of Caledor
Great Weapon
Guardian Phoenix

Spears x15
Standard
Champion
Musician
Banner of Eternal Flame

Spears x15
Standard
Champion

Phoenix Guard x20
Standard
Banner of Sorcery
Keeper of the Flame

White Lions of Chrace x15
Standard
Guardian

*Too many small static blocks, many of which will be made short work of by a single small arms unit, and no speed. Pretty deadly in C.C however. Meh for me though. :p

Youngking:

Mage, Lvl2, Silver Wand

Noble BsB, AoC, GW, GP

32 Spearmen, FC

20 Phoenix Guard, FC, Banner of Sorcery

10 White Lions

5 Dragon Princes

*YOU NEED SOME MOBILITY unlike Tarian suggested -in my opinion
Everything is M5, I would advise keeping the D.Ps, as they will squish almost anything in this small points of a game, however to save on points and to get an extra combat block (the W.L) take (if you have one) a Tiranoc Chariot, cheap effective and most importantly breaks up your static line of M5. Also personally I would make your list only slightly different:

Mage LvL 2: Silver Wand

32 Spearmen: F.C

19 P.G: F.C, BoS

BsB: AoC, G.P, G.W

Tiranioc Chariot puts you at a 1,021

then you could add 13 W.L and F.C, (run them 5 wide to minize returning strikes, retaining the ability to rape anything with high T in C.C with 11 S6 attacks, the extra 3 guys are there to absorb casualties otherwise you could even take an eagle ;))

Puts you at 1,246. Or you could take:

Mage LvL 2: Silver Wand

32 Spearmen: F.C

19 P.G: F.C, BoS

BsB: AoC, G.P, G.W

5 D.Ps

and then 7 W.L and or 7 S.M.

I also ran this the other day:

Mage Lvl 2: S.W, R,B (Reaver Bow -I call this make Machine Gun Jeffy and no one runs this surprisingly and yet, when put to use is devastating.)

22 S.G: F.C, BoEF (ironic that 21 S.G with F.C and BoEF is 313 exact? :D)

BsB: AoC, G.P, G.W

19 P.G: F.C, BoS

5 D.Ps: S.B: Ellyrion Banner

Put me at 1,242

*Or instead of the D.Ps you could run: a Tiranioc Chariot and 7 S.M or W.L puts you at 1,247, if your C.C inclined.

^^^
I like this list because it provides a action in every phase of the game, every phase has quality (good amount of P.D, good shooting, good C.C, good Mvmt) and its quite balanced with every unit taking on mutli-roles and prepared for many situations. :cheese: ;)

*Or instead of the D.Ps you could run: a Tiranioc Chariot and 7 S.M or W.L puts you at 1,247, if your C.C inclined.



Yes, the Noble BsB:E.S and Star Lance is currently what what I use on my Mounted BsB (that or Crown of Command/(insert Item here, usually O.T.S) if kept close to block of troops allows a counter and often flank charge on the block o' troops your D.P's are fighting)that is essential for all the new rerolls he is used for.

^^^This setup can be invaluable when it comes to certain high A.S monster/machine models that one just has to destroy (think of a small block of saurus, with Scar vet BsB come to mind for some reason. . .:D) however the realization of he only has a +1 A.S means, you really need to win combat, or at least choose your targets wisely.

On the IoB; Perosnally, I don't see the value as opposed to say a Battalion box -espically the new Bat. box coming out (this may be hypocritical as I' am getting a IoB set and my Skaven friend is getting another). However, the value isn't really there model wise. As the only models one will constantly use are: the Mage on Foot and. . . that's, about it.

Seaguard and S.M are specific taste. Ellyrion Reavers and the Lord on Gryphon aren't really worth their points, and are fluff additions at best. For twenty points more you can have a Sun Dragon with better S,T,WS,A, and W and a breath weapon and scaly skin, nuff said. Meanwhile Ellyrion Reavers are outclassed by Great Eagels by effectiveness and points cost.

Thus, in effect the IoB is decent, it gives a rulebook (which is one of two reasons why I' am getting it) and some good looking minis, but in the end, more cost effective way of starting up a H.E army is Bat Box, Mage Box, Hero Box, 5 of every Sp., rinse-ish and repeatish. I'm going to try to be posting in the start up thread that Version 8.0 "new player" help etc. . . with what exp I have, that and this tactica threads are probably your best bet.

YoungKing
12-09-2010, 09:17
Wow thanks for the replies, lots of good info.

I just bought a box of spear elves today, also wanted a Mage but there were none in my city! Thursday though I'll be getting one. Anyway I didn't wantt take units of 15 spearmen because I felt that they would be too weak so I'll stick with the 32. I like the core being the spear elves, Mage, and PG. I certainly need to add units that will augment that.

I like the idea of a chariot, didn't even cnsider it myself and I also wasn't sure if they were a good unit to take. That leaves me the option of DP or Lions. 13 lions seems like it would be a better choice although the DP add more mobility so I'm not sure on which to use. I guess Ill be using both in 2k point games so I could just buy both and tinker with the list.

For the Mage, I assume it would make sense to put her in the PG along with the BsB? What worries me though is her getting owned in combat. Or, do I keep her independent? I don't know which is the best option there. Aldo, is the silver wand all I really need to giv her at this level or should I try and get a bit more gear on her?

I think that's it for now, thanks!

P.s, Trains is that Osgood in your avatar?And I typed this on a phone so ignore thegrammar and spellng mistakes lol.

Arbiter7
12-09-2010, 13:04
I don't see the value as opposed to say a Battalion box -espically the new Bat. box coming out

new battalion box? when? with what contents?


EDIT: I saw the rumour page, but how is the new battalion any different than the old one?

Loopstah
12-09-2010, 13:41
new battalion box? when? with what contents?


EDIT: I saw the rumour page, but how is the new battalion any different than the old one?

Chariot kit instead of Silver Helms.

Arbiter7
12-09-2010, 13:47
ah, thanks. I just started HE and I was not aware that the one currently on sale was new.

Lord Shadowheart
12-09-2010, 14:46
Chariot kit instead of Silver Helms.

as well as 4 more archers and speamen.

I've been mostly using an army with an Arch Mage and a lvl 2 mage, and I feel like trying out a combat character now, anyone have any advice how to arm one?

My usual 2k list looks something like this:

Archamge- Lvl 4, Book of Ashur- Life magic
Mage- Lvl 2, Anunulian Crystal- Shadow Magic
24 Seaguard- Full Command, Shields
16 Archers- Full Command
21 Swordmasters- Full Command
21 Swordmasters- Full Command, Sorcery Banner
RBT
RBT

Hashulaman
12-09-2010, 20:00
A fully equipped Prince is generally not far behind Tyrion, for about 130 points less.

What kind of build would that be? I know it doesn't invovle a Star Dragon. (I didn't like the idea of spamming that for EVERY High Elfe game. Seriously That was almost as bad as Kairos spam for daemons.)



Heh, sneaky idea. You want to tie up A real nasty monster such as a Hydra? Take a real cheap character and give him foralaiths robe and get into close combat, neither of you will be able to wound and it will be a tie combat every turn for the rest of the game. He can't be trageted by direct damage or Magic missilies and the only way to harm the character wuld be to attack him with a chaarcter or unit causing magic attacks, which can be avoided if you know what you are doing,

Lord Shadowheart
12-09-2010, 20:17
Not this one is it?

Prince
Dragon Armour
Shield
Barded Elven Steed
Star Lance
Vambraces of Defence

4 S7 non armour saveable attacks on the charge, with a 2+ re-rollable armour and then a 4+ ward for 281 points

Hashulaman
12-09-2010, 20:19
And what would you put him in? A unit of DP? If he is in an infatry unit he doesn't get Look Out Sir!

Desert Rain
12-09-2010, 20:24
Something like this:

Prince with: Dragon Armour, Shield, Vambraces of Defence and some magic weapon and perhaps some armour instead of the Shield or the Dragon Armour.

You loose Tyrion's S7 and his breath attack and some stats, but you are a lot a lot cheaper. The thing that made Tyrion pretty good in last edition was that he was more or less invulnerable, and he isn't that any more.

Hashulaman
12-09-2010, 20:28
Is the lord bettere than an archmage if you don't feel like teclis?
Is sellting for a couple level 2's a good enough idea?

Desert Rain
12-09-2010, 20:32
2 L.2s is pretty good. Not as good as a L.4, but close enough.

For a lord an Archmage is much more powerful than the Prince, no real competition there unless the Prince is in a Star Dragon, but then he costs twice of what an Archmage is.

Hashulaman
12-09-2010, 21:13
Well your setup can only be done on a Prince, so unless Its pretty big points or we go for cheap lords, I dont see a Prince and Archmage

YoungKing
12-09-2010, 21:32
Quick question... for a small game is it necessary to have a BsB or could one have two mages instead to try to load up on magic?

I always see the BsB but two lvl 2 mages in 1000-1500 points would be pretty strong, no?

Francis
12-09-2010, 23:08
Depends upon the game you want to play. For my part two mages is more than viable. But then again I have only recently painted up a decent BsB and never used them i 7th.

The real question would be: Do you expect to take several leadership tests in your games?

I for one would not worry about dropping the BsB in such a small game.

Hashulaman
12-09-2010, 23:23
I might be able to fit a bsb and 2 wizards if i dont spend alot of points at 2250

Allonairre
13-09-2010, 03:55
Quick question... for a small game is it necessary to have a BsB or could one have two mages instead to try to load up on magic?

I always see the BsB but two lvl 2 mages in 1000-1500 points would be pretty strong, no?

It is a tough question to answer.

Personally if I were doing the 2 mages, I would go L4 with Silverwand and L2 with Seerstaff. Then you can pull all the nasty combos that have been mentioned that come from different lores. I think that you are better to take a Level 4, give him the banner of Sorcery on a unit then take a BSB but I think 2 mages could still be effective.

So
Archmage L4, Silverwand, Foliariths Robes, High Magic
Mage L2, Seer Staff, Shadow, Toughness Hex + other spell

I think that this is legal at 1500 and it will allow you to put out 3 or 4 spells every turn from your AM alone even with not many dice. This would be even nastier with a good shooting phase (Bolt Thrower or 2 will make Arrow Attraction a worry) especially if you combine it with the Banner of Sorcery.

I don't think that it will win you many games though, combat is pivotal to winning games now as it's the only way to get VPs reliably. So something still needs to do the mopping up. Maybe Seagaurd, Dragon Princes and Chariots.

YoungKing
13-09-2010, 04:16
Well I can't take a level 4 in a 1000-1500 point game.

I had a list in mind with a lvl2 mage and a BsB that came to 1250points, just to get me going with High Elves and get into the game, so my question pertains to that point range.

I could replace the BsB, who would have AoC, GP, and a GW coming to 168 points for another lvl 2 mage with either the Seerstaff or Annulian Crystal, for 165 or 175 points, respectively. I feel like another mage would probably do a lot more to affect the outcome of the game and give me more of an offensive punch.

I'm going for a magic heavy army in the long run, so maybe it makes sense to have two mages instead of a BsB.

I'm still not sure how to properly protect them though.:confused:

Trains_Get_Robbed
13-09-2010, 05:41
Younking: It is not Osgood, it is Howard. (We are passing the mantle on over the bay in Detroit :D)

As regards to running a Bsb or 2 mages. I would try them both to see their advantages and disadvantges as only on the tabletop will you truley see them work. I could go into detail about the advantages of both however instead I'll make a generalized quick insert:

2 mages:

-Allows for two Aracne items: S.W and A.C -thats essntially 5 spells from any lore you want and a gain of 2 d.d a turn as your taking their p.d away when adding to your d.d pool.

-More varied spell effects for your army: Could take life and buff guys while Spirit Leeching the snot out of Plague Furnaces and kill things with death (GAWD I LUVVVVV DOING THATATAT :D) or shadow and life or, or, or. . . you get the point.

-Having two mages give you a +3 at your attempts to dispell all game as its going to be hard to kill two mages before turn 4 of that small of a game.

BsB:

-Provides C.R generator with 3 attacks s6 on any RnF even most elites he will kill 2 models a turn.

-Allows rerolls for your entire army for Ld based tests.

-Has the ability to hold up small units on his own in that small of a point game (think block of 20 empire archers or 10-15 saurus).

Mage Detractors:

-A pretty big point sink and can be mitigated by for example a goblin great shaman (low point horde lvl 4's).

-Neither really generate guaranteed C.R or kills.

-One is going to have to be the general and will be pretty easy to target once in combat.

Bsb:

-In small point sized games the Bsb's rerolls aren't as helpful as it can be effects less units and elves already have a high Ld as it is.

-His points could be spent to entirety to make the W.L block bigger (I'm thinking 20?)

If you cut out 3 Spearmen you can buy the +1 Ld banner for your Spearmen and your entire army would be Ld 9 (if you had D.Ps and no chariot.)

*If you run the Bsb I would try him out in both P.G and Spearmen instead of bunkering charcters in P.G as he can help add a cheap guranteed +3 C.R by just being in a unit and aginst say a horde of Clanrats with Assasian or Chieftan, may just be the difference. . .:D

*As for the mages, there is no way to really "properly" protect them sadly. However, with the S.W if you don't run R.B run Loremaster's Cloak or G.P. The one with the A.C could be on a B.Steed and with the gem that ignores first hit on +2, other wise to be honest he is kind of S.O.L. :(

Desert Rain: True I do believe that is a much cheaper and points effective alt. to Tyrion.

General:

In 2,500 point games however, I find I can run both a kitted out lord and a kitted out LvL 4 mage, as long a the Prince isn't on a Monsterous Mount. Against infantry sized models I run the K.B Lord and either a ethreal mage or Book of Hoeth, or Crown of Command etc. . .

What do you all like as for your lord point allotment? Do you do as I do and try for both a Lord and a LvL four at 2,500 or do you just run one or the other,

Hashulaman
13-09-2010, 07:00
I like the idea of Flaming banner onf sea gard, makes Trolls and Hydras cry. Wound them first before unleashing other stuff like bolt throwers, the biggest problem with hydras for me is regeneration. 15-25 flaming S3 hits will negate, followed by multiple bolt throwers.

Does Drain magic affect a bound spell? Last version we couldnt do anything to tomb kings and warrior priests. Has that changed? Oh and do we have to take high magic to get Drain Magic, or is it like Invocation or power of darkness for VC and Dark Elves.

I'm also having trouble picking lores for the regular wizards, Teclis will almost always pick Life to buff the fragile units. Should the extra mages take something more offensive like fire, something hex oriented like shadow, or take life again to further the buffs?

YoungKing
13-09-2010, 07:46
@Trains: I couldn't tell, but it's nice to see you've got Howard > Osgood haha. I'm a huge Wings fan myself, can't wait for October.

Anyway, I guess I will just have to try the two options, either two Mages or one Mage and a BsB. To be honest it just seems to me that if I did run the two Mages, I could really dominate the magic phase at that level and get some nice damaging spells/buffs off, as I would have five spells. Unfortunately, I wouldn't be able to take the A.C. as it puts my Hero choices at 320 points, 7.5points over the limit, so I'd have to settle for the Seerstaff(puts me at 310). That would guarantee me two nasty spells(Dwellers, etc) or whatever I want, along with three random from the other Mage.

One thing I'm missing though, I don't see how I would get +3 to my dispell rolls with two Mages, wouldn't it just be +2?

Other then that... Not sure I have any more questions for the moment! Time to go think of some.

CmdrLaw
13-09-2010, 09:23
I would say a BSB might not be required but Swift Reform = Full of win in an offensive force.

And as far as dominating the magic phase, this has nothing to do with how many mages you have but is entirely reliant on PD.

The Annulian crystal and banner of sorcery go a long way to helping with this, but last game I had rolled a total of 3-4 PD for most of my phases and the banner only rolled a 1 each time.

2 Mages is mostly good for combo-ing spells from different lists.

Francis
13-09-2010, 10:24
To answer Trains question about lords. If I got the points I usually use the K.B lord and a lvl 4 with Book of Hoeth. Although I have been wondering about using Book of Ashur and Talisman of Endurance on the lvl 4 instead, any comments as to which of those builds is preferable would be welcome.

Besides that I am going to use a Griffon Lord just as soon as GW manages to send me the two IoB sets I ordered. The griffon lord will be converted to look like my K.B lord and I will use, AoC, Vambraces of Defence and a GW. (since White sword can't be taken mounted). I am also toying with the idea of tossing a Potion of Strength into the mix for 4 S9 attacks in 1 round of combat.

For the Record, the Griffon is a themed choice so any "use a Sun Dragon instead" comments will be ignored ;)

Your Mum Rang
13-09-2010, 11:06
Just wondered what you lot thought of my list idea; double Phoenix.

Teclis + BSB (GW & 1+)
24 LSG w/ Flaming Banner
30 Spears
2 x 24 PG
2 x 5 DP
2 Eagles

I went through lists with all the other elites but I didn't like how Swordmasters played and I HATE the White Lion models. On the other hand I adore the PG and DP models.

Trains_Get_Robbed
14-09-2010, 02:26
Young King: I play tendy myself so good to see a Howard non-hater (mechanics are great, movement is great, he stops the first shot and most the time steers the rebounds into the corners. He just has to work on not trying to do everything himself.) :D

Also you would have +3 because all H.E armies get plus one to dispell on there mages if a single H.E mage is taken in the army. So a lvl 2 for dispelling purposes is actually a lvl 3 and could be 4 if one takes the staff of +1 dispell.

@ Your Mum: I am if the same opinion on S.M not a huge fan. The list isn't bad, however I would take the A.P banner on one unit of P.G for a -2 A.S and thus makes them more killy -take BoS on the other P.G unit.

Francis: K.B has came up clutch since his epic fail aginsnt an Old Blood in my last grudge game: killed a Vampire and most recently GRIMGORRRRRR!!! :D

Question though, why the AoC on the mounted lord? Its actually quite easy to get a +2 up A.S while mounted. I find AoC better for my BsB on foot. Then again your BsB may be mounted, or you may take one not at all. :)

TheKingInYellow
14-09-2010, 03:17
Just wondered what you lot thought of my list idea; double Phoenix.

Teclis + BSB (GW & 1+)
24 LSG w/ Flaming Banner
30 Spears
2 x 24 PG
2 x 5 DP
2 Eagles

I went through lists with all the other elites but I didn't like how Swordmasters played and I HATE the White Lion models. On the other hand I adore the PG and DP models.

You have two deadly but fragile hammers in the DPs but those PG anvils are incredibly hard to break, doubly so if you take Life on Teclis. So long as you don't run into a metal-lore heavy magic army I think this list would be hard to beat. Even if you do, you have a good chance of removing a spell with Teclis' scroll...

Nasty list. Nasty.

YoungKing
14-09-2010, 06:05
@Trains - Definitely think Howards flaws get overrated, considering he had great stats(top5).

Anyway, I completely misunderstood about the dispel bonus and completely forgot that you use the wizards level for dispel too, haha.

Francis
14-09-2010, 10:00
@Trains: I can't seem to find a way to get the 2+ AS without AoC unless I use a shield of some sorts.

As my Griffon Lord is simply my Swordmaster Lord with his faithfull steed, (could go deep as to regards to personal fluff here but I resist the temptation) a shield really doesn't fit in with the image.

Now if I use a BsB in the same force as my prince, I tool him up with a G.W., Armour of silvered steel and a luckstone which should give him some protection.

In other news, I am glad to see your K.B. Prince perform so well. I can imagine killing Grimgor gave you the same feeling I got when my Prince beheaded a Chaos lord, pure joy.

Darktan
14-09-2010, 11:09
You have two deadly but fragile hammers in the DPs but those PG anvils are incredibly hard to break, doubly so if you take Life on Teclis. So long as you don't run into a metal-lore heavy magic army I think this list would be hard to beat. Even if you do, you have a good chance of removing a spell with Teclis' scroll...

Nasty list. Nasty.

why would metal be a problem, are not dragon princes immune to fire, and therfore immune to searing doom and golden hounds, the two anti-armour metal spells?

g0ddy
14-09-2010, 18:46
Indeed they are.. along with that horrifyingly powerful river of boiling blood terrain feature.

~ Zilla

g0ddy
14-09-2010, 18:49
Indeed they are.. along with that horrifyingly powerful river of boiling blood terrain feature.

~ Zilla

Trains_Get_Robbed
15-09-2010, 02:47
@ Francis: Well, then true, if one dosen't take a shield I do believe its impossible to get past a +3 unless on B.Steed. Tekagamdors Gauntlets, D.A, B.Steed gives you a 2+ 5++ however, Gryphons aren't barded.

Allonairre
15-09-2010, 07:37
You are better to go with 3+ rerollable, (using Helm of Fortune, Dragon Armour and Griffon) and get the 5++ from the Gaurdian Phoenix.

I hope your Swordmaster Prince on a Griffon doesn't have the White Sword because unless it was Errata'd you must be on foot for that one.

Why would a Swordmaster Prince not carry a shield with his Great Weapon, it always staggers me that some idiot bothered to enchant Light Armour with a 4+ ward, or in the case of Dwarves put runes on non-great weapons. Such is life I suppose.

Francis
15-09-2010, 16:29
@Allonairre. How exactly is a 3+ rerollable AS with a 5+ ward better than a 2+ rerollable AS with a 4+ ward save?

And no I don't use a White Sword on my Griff. I think you might have misinterpreted my posts mate, either that or you haven't read the conversation I have had with Train from the start.

LususNaturae
15-09-2010, 17:03
@Allonairre. How exactly is a 3+ rerollable AS with a 5+ ward better than a 2+ rerollable AS with a 4+ ward save?



Hmm let's see. Is it better? Or not?

MATH TIME!!

VS S1, S2, and S3

3+Reroll/5++: 1-[(1/3)(1/3)(2/3)] = 25/27 = 0.926
2+/4++: 1-[(1/6)(1/2)] = 11/12 = 0.917

3+Reroll/5++ wins, barely

VS S4

3+Reroll/5++: 1-[(1/2)(1/2)(2/3)] = 5/6 = 0.833
2+/4++: 1-[(1/3)(1/2)] = 5/6 = 0.833

Even Match!

VS S5

3+Reroll/5++: 1-[(2/3)(2/3)(2/3)] = 19/27 = 0.704
2+/4++: 1-[(1/2)(1/2)] = 3/4 = 0.75

2+/4++ Takes the lead!

VS S6
3+Reroll/5++: 1-[(5/6)(5/6)(2/3)] = 29/54 = 0.463
2+/4++; 1-[(2/3)(1/2)] = 2/3 = 0.66

2+/4++ Is much better.

VS S7
3+Reroll/5++: 1-(2/3) = 1/3 = 0.33
2+/4++: 1-[(5/6)(1/2)= 7/12 = 0.58

From S8 and on, both their armor saves are negated, so they revert to their ward, and the 4++ obviously better.

So Francis, the 2+/4++ is better in all cases except S3 and below, where it is only marginally better. Thus, I would conclude that the 2+/4++ is the better buy.

If you're really looking hard at these calculations, you'll notice that it is the 4++ that is giving it the edge. If both had the same ward save, the 3+reroll would be much better.

Of course, this doesn't take points into account. I'll let you figure that one out, no codex/rulebook near me.

Francis
15-09-2010, 17:44
Thank you for that Lusus, but I would like to point out that the 2+ armour save from my AoC is rerollable thanks to me using vambraces of defence for my 4+ ward.

Where Allonairre got the idea that I was using armour of prot I really have no idea.

LususNaturae
15-09-2010, 19:53
Thank you for that Lusus, but I would like to point out that the 2+ armour save from my AoC is rerollable thanks to me using vambraces of defence for my 4+ ward.

Where Allonairre got the idea that I was using armour of prot I really have no idea.


Oh my. I totally forgot you were using the vambraces due to the time difference between posts. Well, no one needs math to prove that one lol

puckus10
15-09-2010, 22:57
I dont know if anyone has thought of this so ill just post it. If you get the magical shield in the armybook common items, the helm of fortune, and heavy armour you can get a 2+ rerollable on a noble. That could be handy.

Francis
15-09-2010, 23:05
Unfortunately that build is illegal Puckus. Enchanted Shield and Helm of Fortune are both in the magic armour category. :(

Use Armour of Caledor and Dawnstone if you want the 2+ rerollable AS on a foot noble. Although then you might aswell invest in the Guardian Phoenix instead of the Dawnstone for a 5+ ward save rather than a reroll.

Tarian
15-09-2010, 23:26
More fun to use a Lord with AoC and Vambraces for a 2+ reroll 4++. Toss a Great Weapon on him, and go to town on most things with your "only T3" elf.

puckus10
16-09-2010, 01:34
oh thanks i didnt notice that applied to common magic items. To bad

YoungKing
16-09-2010, 01:36
Hey just had a few more questions.

First, in 2k plus is if beneficial to have an archmage on a star dragon?

Second, how would you equip such a Mage?

Third, is there any definitive answer as to which is the better unit betwebn swordmastets and white lions?

And fourth, GW Is realeasing SM and sea guard plastic sets right? Not just in IoB?

ScytheSwathe
16-09-2010, 01:40
trouble with taking fightly lords id the fact that unless you take a second, they will be your general with the highest LD. hence you lose a bit for their prowess in terms of having the Ld bubble wander off towards the fight, rather than stay in the middle where they are wanted. Shame because i really like the model ive got for the prince-bow of seafarer-eagle.

And at the end of the day, it only takes your average orc big boss to reduce your "only T3 elf" to a 4++ and wounds on 2+. Not a risk i like, even if average troops find him hard to hurt.

One other trouble with High elves is that you need the archmage for magic supremacy, to make up for the lack of templates, which makes the prospect of taking a fighty prince risky at best, at least until bigger games start changing the equations...


*EDIT* young king
IoB is the only place youll get SM and SG. White lions over SM in my book, but there is no real 'definative' answer
I wouldnt put an archmage on a dragon, but if I had to, I would take talismain of saphrey and a healing potion, then take life. that mage needs all the help they can get

Tarian
16-09-2010, 01:59
Probably toss the 4+ ward on him if you can too.

Trains_Get_Robbed
16-09-2010, 02:31
Why is there even discussion about a wards and AS? Simple; francis wants a +2 as on foot take AoC otherwise economically its a waste as AoC can be better served else where Simple as that.

YoungKing
16-09-2010, 03:07
I was just curious about the mage on a dragon because the model is so nice.

What I meant about the SM and sea guard was will they be released in boxes in the future or will the new models ONLY be available in IoB?