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wilsongrahams
16-09-2010, 07:52
There are currently no plans to release either of those sets in plastic at the moment and I wouldn't expect you to see them for a few years at least just for GW to sell more starter sets.
GW are releasing the old Sea Guard models again though this October but they are metal. The metal Swordmasters are also still available.

Your Mum Rang
16-09-2010, 08:11
How would you lot build a Swordmaster-heavy army? I am thinking of a Hoeth list.

wilsongrahams
16-09-2010, 08:30
How would you lot build a Swordmaster-heavy army? I am thinking of a Hoeth list.

I'd buy lots of Sword Masters of Hoeth.

wilsongrahams
16-09-2010, 14:46
On a serious note, I'd probably take at least two units of 21 in a 7 by 3 formation to allow them to lose a rank to shooting etc before losing any attacks.

I'd also stick to the Hoeth theme and counter the vulnerability of Swordmasters by taking 3 level 2 Mages, one with silver wand and lore of life, one with high magic, and one with lore of metals. This should allow you some reasonable magic in offensive and defensive measure aswell as augment spells which are all useful in a Swordmasters army.

I'd also probably take a couple large blocks of Spearmen cos they're cheap and can make up the numbers and protect the flanks, and then spend any remaining points on a Prince to lead them and maybe a couple chariots or some cavalry of some kind - Ellyrion Reavers could work here as they can hassle enemy war machines easily and you won't want any of those hitting your elite glass troops. Finally I'd stick in a couple Great Eagles and Bolt Throwers again for hitting war machines or anything dastardly. You would have to rely on those two swordmaster units to break the enemy army though as nothing else will be able to do it.
If facing a very shooty army then you may want Lore of Heavens on one of those Mage's to help out but you're not guaranteed to get useful defensive spells anyway whatever the lore.

That's my take, but personal preferences and likes to units will come into play here too. I'd say that archers and Sea Guard would be too costly in such a glass army though where the numbers of the rest of the army will be needed. At larger points I'd then add in some Phoenix Guard too as a central core that can hopefully absorb a lot of that firepower - sticking your prince in them and advancing ahead of the Swordmasters should catch your opponents eye.

Tarian
16-09-2010, 22:36
If it's a Hoeth army, should be led by an Archmage probably.

Trains_Get_Robbed
16-09-2010, 23:12
If your running a Hoeth Army, at a 2,500 points stick to 2 blocks of spears 25 men deep, multiple units of S.M, an Archmage (Book of Hoeth), K.B lord in your biggest block of S.M and then to break up the M5 of your troops, a unit of mobile S.M or D.P's, round out with Eagles and Bolt throwers to choice. After all this, you may have enough points left to get a (10-20) LSG block, a chariot and BsB, BsB and a Mage or perhaps another unit of S.M, whatever floats your boat.

*Make sure to run the S.M 6 or 7 wide so you can get the most out of their attacks in combat and your really big block should have at least 21 in it.

*Crown of Command and +1 Ld banner are helpful on units in games where one dosen't take a BsB.

Trains_Get_Robbed
17-09-2010, 05:35
Ok question, what do all you recommend for this situation: me (h.e) and friend (skaven) have 1,000 points we can spend on lords in our doubles tourney in nov. we have been talking and i believe running two furnaces a star dragon, teclis, hpa, 2 doomwheels, 2 w.l.c would be our best bet. However, I don't want to be cheap/chessy (with our partnership anyways) and would like to give him a lord spot and thus have to cut teclis or change the dragon. What setups would you all look into? Or should we keep the curremt setup?

Your Mum Rang
17-09-2010, 08:02
I was thinking of taking Teclis (Life), and then either a LVL2 or BSB with the Gem of Hoeth as my characters.

After that I was thinking a unit of Spears (24+), a unit of 20 LSG, 2 x 24 Swordmasters, 5 Dragon Princes and 2 Eagles.

Would it work? I was thinking Teclis with Life would give those Swordies a great boost in survivbility.

Francis
17-09-2010, 10:56
@ Trains: What kind of magic item setup are you thinking of when it comes to the star dragon prince? As it were, I used vambraces of defence, star lance, dragon armour and shield which gives him a 3+ reroll 4++ save.

That ticked in at a grand total of 627points, which means that you can't really take Teclis unless you remove all the magic items from the prince or bump the dragon down to a moon dragon (in which case you would still have to loose the star lance and use a GW or a normal lance instead).

If you want to let him have a Lord choice ask him to take a tooled up grey seer. (You need a lvl 4 if you are going to loose Teclis). A screaming bell would of course be preferable, but then he wont be able to take any magic items and you would have to use a Moon Dragon instead of a star dragon.

As it stand the last build is the one I would use were my brother (he is a Skaven player) and I to go for this kind of list. Moon dragon, dragon armour shield, vambraces of defence and starlance on the prince for 559 points. A screaming bell for the grey seer for 440 Points.

Grand total: 999 Points.

@Your Mum Rang: I would use 2x 21 swordmasters instead of 2x 24 to maximise their attacks (7 wide 3 deep). Besides that your BsB is very vulnerable when you use a Radiant Gem of Hoeth (the best save you can get on foot is a 4+ AS). Unless you put him on a horse and stick him with the DPs for a 2+ AS.

Trains_Get_Robbed
17-09-2010, 15:15
For a Lord on Dragon I'm looking at Vambraces, D.A, Foebane, E.S and either T.O.L or Strength Potion or Vambraces, D.A, Other Trickster's Shard, Foebane, Charmed Shield or Vmb, D.A, Golden Shield, T.O.L/Potion of strength, Lance, G.W or lastly Vmb, D.A, -1 to hit the bear, and maybe Foebane, S.O.M or O.T.S/Golden Shield (strength potion is used the turn after I Breath Weaponed -whether that be in or out of combat) and Star Dragon runs me est. = 625 points.

I believe however that we are looking into a Warlord on warlitter and then me with the leftover points however, what would be good character in challenges for that, or boost C.R for the unit of Storm Vermin were thinking he should be in. Any ideas?

YoungKing
18-09-2010, 03:17
So I just bought the boxed mages set, with the foot mage and mounted mage. I'm wondering if there is any point in using a mounted mage or should I look to convert him?

Trains_Get_Robbed
18-09-2010, 06:56
Well, depending your playstyle, its always useful to have one of every type. Pesonally I find the extra H.E bodies and weapons etc . . . from the Dragon kit and extra archer legs as well as the extra legs from the Tiranioc chariot box really helps in converting foot mages (archers and Dragon bitz) and H.E foot Lords (extra W.L crewmen legs and extra Dragon kit pieces).

It all depends. . .

Your Mum Rang
18-09-2010, 07:40
@YoungKing; I plan to use the Mage boxed set as unit fillers in my Hoeth army. You could do the same for your mounted Mage,

Francis
18-09-2010, 12:38
@Trains Well you might miss a lvl 4 mage if he is going for the warlord and you want a dragon riding prince.

For the warlord I would use warpstone armour and shield. Combined with the warlitter that is a 2+ AS that kills stuff. Then I would toss in warlock-augmented weapon for +1S and +1A (problem with this is that now you can't afford a wardsave.)

If you want him to be good in challenges give him sword of anti heroes(+1S +1A for every enemy characters in base contact with him and his unit) and foul pendant (5++).

All that ticks in at 203 points for the warlord with WAW but without ward save.
The one with 5++ and sword of anti heroes is 218 so not that much more. Either way you get your dragon.

PS: My brother says: put him on a bonebreaker and in a unit of 5 rat ogres, then you just lean back and watch him chew through your enemies.
That version adds another 30 points.

lacurra
18-09-2010, 23:34
i use a mounted mage for a hitman of types sometimes. i run around with him with the lore of death and spirit leech their champions and heroes and such. with the horse it helps me keep him out of combat. i'll put him in with reavers sometimes as i know they won't be in combat. works pretty well.

Gorak
19-09-2010, 03:09
no point in the warlord, go with a seer on bell. Failing that just a seer, better choice IMHO same ld and seer get the 13th spell!

YoungKing
19-09-2010, 06:14
i use a mounted mage for a hitman of types sometimes. i run around with him with the lore of death and spirit leech their champions and heroes and such. with the horse it helps me keep him out of combat. i'll put him in with reavers sometimes as i know they won't be in combat. works pretty well.

Hmmm that's interesting and gives me a bit more of a reason to but the IoB box...

Thinking I could possibly use the model as a Noble, with RGoH just for that extra leadership.

Trains_Get_Robbed
20-09-2010, 06:42
Francis and Gorak: A moon LvL 4: A.M with unkillable kit and another item comes in at around 350, a Warlord on Bonenbreaker would be 240ish? gives me 410 left, not enough. If we take a Warlord, we need a LvL 4 A.M, and I would like to add in a prince on a Dragon, as I'm going to be painting a converted Dragon model up as it will net some painting points. Thus:

Warlord + LvL 4 Archmage + Prince on Dragon
or
Seer on Bell + Prince on Dragon
or
Teclis + Star Dragon

The rest of our list right now only consists of a Furnace and 50 plague monks, a Assasain, LvL 2 Mage, and G.E Noble. I'm also taking roughly either 2 units of 25 spearmen or a horde of LSG with a Bsb with A.P banner instead of the chicken noble.

Gorak
20-09-2010, 08:11
Well, the problem being if you guys will be running the alies rules from the book you will be untrusted or worse(can't rember off hand) So my suggestion is let him run the bell for the magic and 18"ld buble for his army, your run the prince on the dragon and then rock out a couple lvl2s for your magic, keep the plague priest a lvl1(he's a great fighter) skaven assasain are well OP get him to take a cheap bsb instead, with all the figghty units, one or two units of slaves to hold your oppents units up then smoke'em in the flank. Oh and I'd run 2 units of 25 spearmen as his bell and furnace untis are going to be big. I'd suggest 35-40.

Francis
20-09-2010, 08:36
Well as I showed earlier Teclis and a Star Dragon is to expensive in points to take anyway (unless you run the Prince withouth any equipment what so ever, and who wants to do that?).

In the end I suggest you go with either Teclis and a warlord on a bonebreaker. Or as I posted earlier and as Gorak seems to suggest as well: a Moon dragon, dragon armour, shield, vambraces of defence and starlance on the prince for 559 points. A screaming bell for the grey seer for 440 Points.

Grand total: 999 Points.

The seer can manage without magic items. He really just needs the bell and his d3 warpstone tokens since the bell gives him magic resistance 2 and a standard 4+ ward save.

Danny76
21-09-2010, 12:13
My friend and I were thinking of getting the island of blood starter and I was looking at the high elves.
But I was wondering if the stuff in the box is any use in game? I've heard that people mostly wouldn't use what's in there.
Is there any use in the stuff or would it be better to drop most of the stuff when expanding my HE army from this start

ColShaw
21-09-2010, 14:07
I've always liked Swordmasters, use them, and will continue to do so. Combining the IoB with what I've already got allows me to take 2 7x2 units of Swordmasters. And Seaguard are a lot better this edition than last. The Griffon and the Reavers? Less useful than some things on tabletop, but oh so pretty!

Gmaleron
21-09-2010, 14:51
Hello everyone. Sorry to kind of hijack this thread a little but i will be playing against a khorne themed warriors of chaos army this upcoming week at my game store and i need some help as ive only ever faced nurgle before. This is what im pretty sure he will be running:

-Lots of Chaos warriors i believe with Halberds
-Big nasty group of chaos knights
-"captured" empire wizards i believe with lore of fire

Other then that i cant think really of anything else special he may be running. However to face him i have the following with my nagarythe themed high elf army.

-Archmage with book of Hoeth
-Alith Anar
-Horde unit of Lothern Sea Guard w/ Razor Banner or World Dragon bsb
-x2 units of 21 swordmasters
-x1 unit of 21 white lions w/ banner of sorcery
-x10 shadow warriors
-Maybe some bolt Throwers

And other then that the rest is up in the air. Thinking about using shadow warriors with alith anar to get on his flank and shoot his knights (rank shot hopefully) while the rest of my army hangs back shooting as best it can.

Inquis. Jaeger
21-09-2010, 17:02
Lore of Metal will be your friend. Hordes will work well against his lack of warmachines and bolt throwers are always tasty against elite high-AS enemies. I would say that the razor banner would be a better bet than BWD, given the difference in cost (especially as a BSB will be required to take BWD in a unit of LSG). Swordmasters will work well, especially if you buff them with Life or debuff his warriors with Shadow. Mindrazor would be amazing against his ranked infantry (strength 8 ASF with -5 armour save!)

YoungKing
21-09-2010, 17:17
I can't decide whether or not to get the IoB myself.

The problems are, I probably won't use the Reavers, Sea Guard, or Griffon Lord, and even if I used the Sea Guard, it wouldn't be my cup of tea to use those models and fill the rest out with spearmen models.

With the money I'd use to get the IoB I can basically get 20 PG and 10 WL(for a bit extra) or DP, so I will probably just wait.

Now, if I could split the box with someone I definitely would.

On tactics, I still haven't come up with a decent way to play a mounted mage/archmage on a horse. The Forlaith's, Saphery, and whatever seems like the best bet, but then I'm not able to take BoH if I wanted to, and a Mage on a horse doesn't seem like a good idea at all unless there's no other shooting.

Also, is the Book of Hoeth that good?

CmdrLaw
22-09-2010, 16:08
Book of Hoeth depends largely on what you want to do with your Magic, if your relying on 1 or 2 spells to win you the game then Hoeth is definately the way forward, but you won't be casting anything else as all the dispel dice will be left over (not exactly going to use them on IF cast's)

But the Robe and another item (I favour the Annulian crystal) will keep your mage alive pretty much indefinately and have alot more magical dominance and will able to do alot more.

YoungKing
22-09-2010, 18:22
Book of Hoeth depends largely on what you want to do with your Magic, if your relying on 1 or 2 spells to win you the game then Hoeth is definately the way forward, but you won't be casting anything else as all the dispel dice will be left over (not exactly going to use them on IF cast's)

But the Robe and another item (I favour the Annulian crystal) will keep your mage alive pretty much indefinately and have alot more magical dominance and will able to do alot more.

Yeah, I'm going for more options and flexibility so I think I will forgo the BoH unless I know for sure I'm going to need it to blast someone.

I'd love to fit the Annulian Crystal into my list, but I have my Archmage with Forlaith's, Saphery, and the Silver Wand, so my question to you is whether or not having the Annulian outweighs the SW and ToS? I'm assuming with the Banner of Sorcery it is an awesome piece of gear to have(basically +1 PD and DD).

I originally wanted to get an Annulian Crystal, Jewel of Dusk, and BoS into my list so I was thinking of taking three mages(Archmage, lvl 2, and lvl 1) but it didn't seem worth it and I'm not sure on a lvl 2 that the AC is better than the Seerstaff.

puckus10
22-09-2010, 21:44
On tactics, I still haven't come up with a decent way to play a mounted mage/archmage on a horse.

Also, is the Book of Hoeth that good?

A way to use a mage on a horse i take a seerstaff and take shadow so you can use steed of shadows. Then you can move 18 inches, do your thing, and fly 20 inches back out of harms way. I do it all the time and my lvl4 has never got killed.

Danny76
22-09-2010, 23:30
I can't decide whether or not to get the IoB myself.

The problems are, I probably won't use the Reavers, Sea Guard, or Griffon Lord, and even if I used the Sea Guard, it wouldn't be my cup of tea to use those models and fill the rest out with spearmen models.

With the money I'd use to get the IoB I can basically get 20 PG and 10 WL(for a bit extra) or DP, so I will probably just wait.

Now, if I could split the box with someone I definitely would.

On tactics, I still haven't come up with a decent way to play a mounted mage/archmage on a horse. The Forlaith's, Saphery, and whatever seems like the best bet, but then I'm not able to take BoH if I wanted to, and a Mage on a horse doesn't seem like a good idea at all unless there's no other shooting.

Also, is the Book of Hoeth that good?

From what i gather noone uses The Lord on Griffon as its not great in game.
or particularly ellyrians either.
so is the box not worth getting if its only for the high elves?

wilsongrahams
22-09-2010, 23:37
A Griffon is still a worthy mount, just not as good as a Dragon for just a few points less. Still, it's worth it's points compared to other monstrous mounts due to Stomping etc and that a Dragon's flame attack is now single use per game.

Ellyrian Reavers are mostly unused in armies because the models were poor and expensive, but they do have a use as Fast Cavalry but you have to protect them. Running a low level mage with them helps here.

Danny76
23-09-2010, 00:07
well i would have that in the box.
what about the sea guard and swordmasters, are they anygood?

Tarian
23-09-2010, 01:39
Sea Guard are a very solid core choice, the Jack of All Trades, Master of None for our Core, whereas Swordmasters are complete Glass Hammers. Some people hate 'em, I personally like 'em a lot. (Especially since my unit champ dropped Malus Darkblade with the Talisman of Loec!)

wilsongrahams
23-09-2010, 15:03
I haven't used Sea Guard much yet, but if you use them defensively they are great - instead of having some archers and some spearmen to hold a flank you can just have the one unit and save on the total cost for just a few points more than the archers would cost anyway. Every time my archers get charged they always break and die cos they just can't defend themselves, and this is where Sea Guard will be most useful. If you're facing a static enemy such as a dwarf gunline then you're probably best leaving them for the two seperate units.

As for Swordmasters, I love them. I have a unit of 20 with my BSB and a unit of 24 both in 3 ranks, 7 and 8 wide respectively. They can lose a whole rank before they lose their effectiveness and the number of attacks they give back make up for their shortfalling against the White Lions strength against regular troops. They will chop through weaker units by the dozen - but you have to get them into combat. White Lions and Phoenix Guard can kinda protect themselves from missile fire and weather it but you will want Lore of Heavens on a Mage or some other missile defense for them. In every 8th ed game I've played so far I've used at least one of my Swordmaster units, and they have destroyed two or three opposing units each game - admittedly often by breaking and catching them. I have been fortunate to be able to avoid any serious Stone Thrower incidents with them so far too. I tend to give my Swordmaster Champ a nice charm to give the unit Magical Attacks as they are a unit opponents try to tie up with ethereal creatures etc.

Desert Rain
23-09-2010, 15:19
Swordmasters are, and have always been, my favourite unit in the army. They hit harder than just about everything and with the ToL a Bladelord can reliably kill most hero level characters. However, as others have pointed out they are very fragile and die in droves if (when)the enemy strikes back. I think that they work best on a flank where they are likely to find units that they can destroy (either through kills or running them down) in one turn. The banner that gives them +1 M is pretty good as it makes than able to reach combat a bit faster.

scarvet
23-09-2010, 15:28
I cant decide on IoB because of all the things Empire can do; I simply lost my faith in this edition......

CmdrLaw
23-09-2010, 16:31
I'm considering using SM's in units of 6, no more and no command...well maybe a champion. For pure killing power, hopefully they will get ignored by most things as it's only 6 models, and if anything does go after them. Then it's a good diverison.

But if you manage to hit an enemy block with 2 units of 6 you can have 26 WS6 STR 5 attacks re-rolling misses...26!

Deadite
23-09-2010, 16:46
I cant decide on IoB because of all the things Empire can do; I simply lost my faith in this edition......

You're not alone in this. I played Undead and Lizards in 5th edition, took time off to play a LOT of 40k and when I came back to 8th edition I found a lot of my old armies were absolutely useless. My hordes of skellies and zombies were relegated to the display shelf and I just don't like the way the new VC play (I HATE GHOULS!). My Lizards, so out-of-date and comparably uglier than the newer models that they're sitting in a box, waiting attention.

I've always admired High Elves, even started a Warmaster army of High Elves. The newer models that have come out and the IoB box helped me finally bite the bullet and start an Army.
Now, of course, I'm reading about other armies I had a passing interest in, reading what they can do and really second guessing what I want to do in this edition of Fantasy. :( And I haven't even thrown my first dice in this edition yet.
I keep checking this thread, hoping I could find something a little more stable than just taking Teclis in every army. I'm not looking for an "I win" button, but maybe something that seems like a good "all-rounder" would be nice.

scarvet
23-09-2010, 17:11
Less competitive due to change in edition is something I can deal with. Rules skewed to one army is not. Empire is the only army that can take all the advantage of the new army structure with little to none disadvantage.

Yes I feel sad about my Tiranoc army have less Tiranoc chariot and chariot, but at least I can get some fast cav in my army as well.

As much as I like the fluff feel of SW, all they have done is banning houses/watchtower:p at my local gaming group.

Francis
24-09-2010, 10:00
Well, competitiveness isn't all in this game as far as I am concerned. I have just started expanding my already sizeable HE force, and the army I will be using from here on is close to the HE equvilant of a 40K inquisition force.

Led by a BladePrince (standard loadout) and a Archmage (Either BoH or Book of Ashur and Talisman of Endurance) , with a Sea Gaurd core a lot of Swordmasters, Sea Rangers (Shadow warriors), and Shore Reavers (Ellyrian Reavers). Might toss in a couple of repeaters when I feel like it, and the Prince will be mounted on a griffon from time to time (converted IoB Griffon).

Not a particularly strong list in theory but I can't wait to test it out. Any of you guys got ideas for tactics?

Danny76
24-09-2010, 22:16
So would would be a goo dway to expand on a list that starts with a base of:

Prince on Griffon
Lvl 2 Mage
10 Lothern Sea Guard
10 Sword masters
5 Ellyrian Reavers.

What would the next purchases be after that box, to ensure that using all the models in the box is a good idea?
I'd rather not buy all those and only use some..

Desert Rain
24-09-2010, 22:28
I would try to get some more Swordmasters and Sea Guards, if you can pick up an additional set of each on ebay you have two good units. I'd also recommend the battalion as it gives you a solid foundation along with the IoB stuff. Perhaps some Dragon Princes as well and you should have about 2000 to 2250 points.

wilsongrahams
24-09-2010, 22:31
A battalion is a great addition to this - spearmen are a must, archers useful, chariot great support for reavers, and the bolt thrower some heavy firepower for trolls etc. You can't go far wrong with this as your first buy. After that I'd probably get some Phoenix Guard.

anuburos
25-09-2010, 11:03
Hi

I was wondering if my logic was right on this? Nobles can take Great Eagles for mounts. Great Eagles are Monstrous Beasts. This makes the model a Monstrous Cavalry. Now as Monstrous Cavalry, you use the model with the highest wound profile. So now you have a flying Noble with 3 wounds and the ability to equip anyway you want. Great weapon anyone?

I'm thinking of making an air force with 2 great eagles and 2 nobles on eagles swooping around.

Monodominant
25-09-2010, 11:36
and what stops people from shooting them down with great ease as they wont get any cover or ability to join a unit?

anuburos
25-09-2010, 18:08
Why wouldn't they get cover from large enough terrain? They can get ward saves if you purchase an item. Other than that nothing. But what stops normal great eagles from getting shot up? My nobles on great eagle, great weapon and heavy armor are only 147 points. Pretty cheap for their damage potential.

Shadow_Steed
25-09-2010, 20:15
Do you guys have any tips on how to counter hellcannon?

Desert Rain
25-09-2010, 20:55
Spirit Leech, Pit of Shades (with or without Miasma) and Purple Sun are probably the best ways to get rid of it. Cheap units such as Great Eagles and Reavers could be used to try to bait it, but never charge it with them! Otherwise an elite infantry unit or something that has been Mindrazored should be able to deal with it.

Tarian
25-09-2010, 21:14
Why wouldn't they get cover from large enough terrain? They can get ward saves if you purchase an item. Other than that nothing. But what stops normal great eagles from getting shot up? My nobles on great eagle, great weapon and heavy armor are only 147 points. Pretty cheap for their damage potential.

Regular eagles get shot up, but they're much fewer points, and your opponent didn't shoot something more important.

As for Hellcannons, Desert Rain has it covered pretty well there. I tend to throw Dragon Princes with a mounted Prince or a Dragon Lord at it.

wilsongrahams
26-09-2010, 20:05
Just after some other experienced players advice rather than actually having a problem here.

I currently have two units of 20 Spearmen with full command. Now, I have 24 spearmen unbuilt which I can either add 12 to each existing unit for two of 32 or create a new unit of 24. What do you think? Three small units or two larger ones? I'm currently leaning towards expanding the two existing units to keep them hanging around longer. I have no intention of creating either into a horde as that'd need 50 models each before I get the full benefit of the extra rank.

Tarian
26-09-2010, 20:11
Hrm, I'd go for the 3rd unit to try to reduce template damage and to provide another unit to block flankers etc.

wilsongrahams
26-09-2010, 21:01
Hrm, I'd go for the 3rd unit to try to reduce template damage and to provide another unit to block flankers etc.

I suppose that would keep them more maneuverable being in smaller units, and for hitting power I can always charge two in at the same target...

For me, the main difference will be with helmet design, shield style and pattern and paintjob so I may build up the models without the extras and leave them unfinished for a few games and try them both ways.

I have heard that 32 is the magic number for HE Spears though due to the wide frontage and being able to fight in all four ranks means you'll strike with full attacks at most units you face (apart from losing one column vs a 5 wide 20mm base unit).

Trains_Get_Robbed
26-09-2010, 23:37
anuburos: Yes, I have tried this as well. Its helpful, and survivable despite what others think. However, the more chickens riders one has the less effective they get. However, do not listen to detractors saying that they will die, you won't even need cover against shooting weapons because there are many setups that will net you a +1 rerollable A.S +5 ward and +2 AS, +5 ward and +1 A.S etc. . . with G.W or SoM to make them efficient when they hit something.

CmdrLaw
27-09-2010, 15:06
Spirit Leech, Pit of Shades (with or without Miasma) and Purple Sun are probably the best ways to get rid of it. Cheap units such as Great Eagles and Reavers could be used to try to bait it, but never charge it with them! Otherwise an elite infantry unit or something that has been Mindrazored should be able to deal with it.

I find this never works, if your opponent is using his hellcannon sensibly its well out of magic range. And unless you run a very good unit all the way across the board to deal with the damn thing you basically have to ignore it.

Godswildcard
27-09-2010, 20:50
Here is a question I've been brooding over for a while. In 7th, I ran a DP heavy list with a lord on barded steed with the star lance. The star lance/VoD come out to 95pts IIRC, basicly giving this guy 4 S7, no AS attacks on the charge and a 2+ rerollable AS and 4+ ward. Is this still a good build, and if so, when should I take this over some other Lord (assuming that I WILL NOT run Teclis in 'friendly' games.)

ColShaw
27-09-2010, 21:26
I'd say it's still good. Maybe even better, as Speed of Asuryan means you'll be rerolling misses against basically everybody, and thus ripping things up better than before.

The downside, of course, is that it's harder to break things on the charge now, so a cavalry Prince is a little riskier that way. But he's as well protected as you can reasonably get, and hits like a ton of bricks.

On a sidenote, the IoB Swordmaster Bladelord is an awesome model to use for a High Elf Prince on foot with Great Weapon. 1-piece plastic though he is, he's a great pose, good face sculpt, and looks very hardcore. "Glorious" was the word my wife used, looking at the new-painted model. Vambraces, Armor of Caledor, Great Weapon, and maybe Talisman of Loec, I'm thinking.

EnternalVoid
27-09-2010, 23:24
I find this never works, if your opponent is using his hellcannon sensibly its well out of magic range. And unless you run a very good unit all the way across the board to deal with the damn thing you basically have to ignore it.

While I understand the sentiments, I disagree with this, it is a matter of mathmatics.

You can deploy 12" in normally, meaning you are 36" from their table edge. The Hellcannon is at least 4 inches long, likely more like 4.5". Still even at 4" that means the front of it is at most 32" from your deployment. Pit of Shades has 24" range and the higher casting of Spirit Leech also has 24" range. So if your caster is lined up with it, that is at least 8" forward to get range. If you are in the middle of the table, then you should be able to hit it from either corner as well with the 24". The problem is more that by limiting their shooting time you are likely limitting the amount of time you have till they can pull you into combat unless you find ways to stall the units that need to be stalled.

If you are using several great eagles, then there is a decent chance you will see where the hellcannon is set up before you place your characters too. In addition it has a 1 in 6 chance of charging forward unless they have it close enough to the BSB, and if they do have it close to the BSB it is not likely in a corner thus easier to get into range.

Trains_Get_Robbed
28-09-2010, 01:42
. . . what are we discussing again? Because, if its tactics on how H.E get to Warmachines, only rooks should be asking questions like that. 2-3 G.E per army is the advised rare choices with RBTs alloted in if feeling like it. However, this number can/should be reduced if taking Ellyrion Reavers or Shadow Warriors. . . * shudders at the last two choices.

New Topic: Whats the best number for elite units in the H.E army? I personally run mine depending on mage/lord setups. If running the "unkillable" mage then I run him in a unit of 19 P.G with normally BoS (but lately A.P banner) to take full advantage of the Watch Tower scenario.

Normally (S.M 21) my elites are 20 troops, whats yours?

TheKingInYellow
28-09-2010, 05:07
Here is a question I've been brooding over for a while. In 7th, I ran a DP heavy list with a lord on barded steed with the star lance. The star lance/VoD come out to 95pts IIRC, basicly giving this guy 4 S7, no AS attacks on the charge and a 2+ rerollable AS and 4+ ward. Is this still a good build, and if so, when should I take this over some other Lord (assuming that I WILL NOT run Teclis in 'friendly' games.)

I can't see ever using the Star Lance. You would get S7 on the charge, and S4 after. Why not just get a mundane GW and have S6 on all attacks, and put 40pts towards other items? If you are worried about magic attacks, get the amulet of light and save 25pts.

scarvet
28-09-2010, 05:22
GW means you lose re-roll to hit with SoA. I say just pick whatever you feel like using.

ScytheSwathe
28-09-2010, 10:16
No you dont, its in the high elf FAQ.
I dont see much point taking any of the magic weapons i a high elf army, excepting maybe the bows.

wilsongrahams
28-09-2010, 10:47
No you dont, its in the high elf FAQ.
I dont see much point taking any of the magic weapons i a high elf army, excepting maybe the bows.

I agree here. I usually equip my Prince with the 12pt basic Great Weapon because there are no disadvantages and it's cheaper and better than most weapons. Only the Blade of Sea Gold and White Sword seem ideal options but are far too expensive when you will want magic armour and a talisman too.

Francis
28-09-2010, 11:17
I dont see much point taking any of the magic weapons i a high elf army, excepting maybe the bows.

Never tried the bows so I cant comment on it. I still think the starlance is great though, you just have to be a little bit more careful with the way you use it this edition. Put it on a stardragon prince and toss it at the biggest badest monster or character your opponent got, since you now reroll misses as well it/he/she will probably go down. I for one would never throw a dragon at a big infantry unit unsupported like I used to.

Besides that I never leave home without White Sword, AoC, GP and ToL on my swordmaster prince. ToL is not quite as good as it used to be but it will still give you killing blows most of the time, and losing a wound from it isn't that harsh anymore since you can just regen it with your lvl 2 life mage who acts as support. Another trick is to have a second mage with high magic and seerstaff. Choose Vaul's unmaking and destroy any ward saves or other magic protection the enemy lord got. Especially dwarf players get moist eyes when they realize that their immune to killing blow 4++ dwarf lord is going to get his head chopped off by a puny elf.:D

wamphyri101
28-09-2010, 11:29
If only the White sword got Heroic Killing blow :)

Francis
28-09-2010, 12:15
If only the White sword got Heroic Killing blow :)

Amen brother.

ColShaw
28-09-2010, 14:25
The Reaver Bow is a pretty fantastic weapon. I always, always have a hero with it. BS6 lets you really reach out and touch someone.

Godswildcard
28-09-2010, 15:09
Ok. I've got another one for you HE gurus. How to best protect Teclis?
My recent big project has been getting up to 3000 points with my HE. Keep in mind that this is just getting ready for 'Ard Boyz 2011, so it is supposed to be a very mean list. I don't play this list unless specifically practicing for 'Ard Boyz, or unless it is requested by an opponent. Here is what that looks like so far:

Teclis (Lore of Life)
LVL. 2 Mage w/ guardian pheonix, silver wand (high magic)
noble w/ heavy armor, shield, GW, Reaver bow (for the Sea Guard)
BSB noble w/ heavy armor, GW, and the +D3 power dice standard
Either Korhil or Caradryan (challenge accepting escort for Teclis)

20x Archer w/ full command
40x Lothern Sea Guard w/ full command, lion standard

30x Swordmasters w/ full command
10x Dragon Princes w/ full command, Champion has terrifying mask of EEE!
5x Reavers w/ musician

Repeater Bolt Thrower

So thats that. I'd like some feedback on the list itself. Also, since Teclis and his Champion are going to get stuck in the Swordmasters unit, which champion should I use? I know that it would be better to go with white lions or pheonix guard, but I don't have the models and I'm really having a hard time accepting the outragous price GW wants me to pay for 10 of them! I'm thinking a Shield of Saphery, Earth Blood, Flesh to stone augmented unit would be pretty unkillable. What are peoples thoughts?

Chicago Slim
28-09-2010, 15:25
I've got a 4500 point game against my housemate's dwarfs this Sunday. I've been dying to break in my cavalry (I also play O&G, Wood Elves, and Beastmen-- this'll be my first 8th Ed game with High Elves), but against a possible gunline, I just couldn't bring myself to do it...

Instead, I'm going with infantry, and lots of it: 2 units of 40 spears each, 2 units of 15 archers, a block of 30 White Lions with a banner of +1 Mv, which I'll deploy as a Horde, 25 Phoenix Guard, and 15 Swordmasters, to protect an Archmage with the Book of Hoeth. Plus a few RBTs and a handful of Eagles (one ridden by a Commander), and a Dragon Mage just for fun...

Given what I know of my opponent and how he plays Dwarfs, I expect him to have a mix of Thunderers and big blocks of elite infantry (Longbeards, Hammerers and Ironbreakers). His big blocks will likely be nearly unbreakable (stubborn on a 10, with a re-roll, and a one-use runic item of rolling 1d6 for a Leadership test, etc), so to pick up points I'm going to have to kill every last one of them.

The plan is to get up in his face as quickly as possible, and start swarming him. The White Lions will look for any opportunity to plow into two units at once (being in Horde formation), so that they can maximize their killing power. Their killing power should make up for the lack of ranks, and if they blow it for a turn, they're still Stubborn. I'm not too worried about overcoming his Steadfast, since he's likely to be Stubborn anyway.

The spears are there to mostly be anvils, pinning him down so that I can get the heavy-hitters (White Lions and Swordmasters) into the flanks-- though 20 spears will drop a couple of Longbeards or Hammerers each turn. Anyway, they'll be stacked deep, not in Hordeform, to maximize their ability to anvil up (with 8 ranks deep to start, even if I'm taking significant losses from the Hammerers, I should be Steadfast for a while...)

The Archers and RBTs are there to soften up one or two targets in the first two turns, while I'm getting into play. These will quite likely be his Rangers, if he brings them (he sometimes brings two units, by including Bugman): he's fond of having a block of 25 essentially disposable longbeards with great weapons jumping me right at the top...

Thoughts?

Francis
28-09-2010, 16:13
@Godswildcard: Divide the swordmasters and kick them up to 16 each or reduce them to 14 (more manouverability, and target denial) Put the BoS on the DP or a SM unit. Put AoC and GP on the BSB. If you miss any points drop the BT.

@Chicago Slim: drop the archers for more spears if you need the core points (archers wont do alot against t4 troops, and why do you use 15 of them?), if not add another unit of swordmasters. The dragon mage will most likely die horribly during the first turn.

Godswildcard
28-09-2010, 16:47
So dropping the SMs to 2x 16 w/ full command, one with the BoS (I guess I would throw Teclis into that one?). What is the GP? Also, I was planning on sticking the BSB into the Sea Guard. Good idea, or go elsewhere? I'm a little hesitant to have one unit of 18 models with teclis, Corhil/Caradryan and a BSB. Seems like a prime target to kill. What of the Korhil/Caradryan debate? Who is better in a challenge? Caradryan has 3 S4 attacks w/ multiple wounds d3, while Korhil has 4 S6 attacks w/ killing blow....leaning towards Korhil...

ColShaw
28-09-2010, 16:55
Caradryan actually has S5, as the FAQ does indeed define his weapon as a Halberd.

scarvet
28-09-2010, 17:34
Korhil always have an edge on kill his opponent and making the unit stubborn. Caradryan is only good against things that are immune to KB and Uber-fightly Lord, but even then he's just having a better chance to do damage.

Back to magic weapons for Prince with DP, I think we missed Tyrion:rolleyes:

Francis
28-09-2010, 19:58
@Godswildcard: I would put both Teclis and The BsB in the Sea Guard, as you say a 18 strong unit is a bit to easy to kill to put Teclis there. The GP is The Guardian Phoenix I would take it from the lvl2 and put it on the BSB, AC is armour of Calador for 2+ AS and 5+ ward save :). Besides that I would use Korhil.

Now the reason I suggest that you divide the sword masters is that it looks like you lack cc units. With only 3 dedicated cc units you will probably find yourself outmaneuvered rather quick at 3000 points (which is the ard boys limit i think, if not schedule a public execution). Then again I went over your list and you still got some points left before you hit 3000 I think.

Pulstar
29-09-2010, 14:45
First Post! I signed up with Warseer last week, but the activation email went to my spam folder and was deleted so I haven't be able to post until it was resent.

So I guess the lesson is Warseer is SPAM!

Any way, I am just getting back into the game after play in 4th and 5th. I have a nice High elf army to build on. 30+ of both spearmen and archers. A block of 15 White Lions, 2 units of 6 silverhelms, and an old chariot . (all 4th edition models) I picked up IoB and traded my Skaven for more elfs. I also have a unit of the new Silver helms that I got when they first came out.

I guess my first questions are about mages. In most of the list I have been coming up with tend to use the Griffin Lord, and then fill the hero points with level 2 mages.

Can two (or three) level two mages stand up to a level 4? And will the lack of a BSB burn me?

Also on the lore for the mages. With only taking a level two's, is high magic on one of them a must? (for Drain Magic) And while Life can plug the hole we have being a T3 army, isn't fire a great augment to our shooting. (Ruhn on a big block of archers seems very strong.)

Trains_Get_Robbed
29-09-2010, 18:07
Here, we, go.

Thoughts on Reaver Bow:

It is not worth taking a Reaver Bow on a Noble as he only has 50 magic points. Taking up 40 points of those 50 and having only 10 left for maybe E.S is asinine. The point of having a Noble in a unit of say spear men, is to BOOST C.R. Having the R.B on him, won't do that as he will either have +5 A.S and die for a lowly champions/units return attacks or have S4 and say a +3 A.S and not kill anything, maybe even die to (Sarsus or C.W champ). In reality your giving away V.P and or character points that can be spent elsewhere.

This being said, I do warrant taking the R.B on a Lvl 2 mage also garnered with the Silver Wand. I run this every game, as it adds some punch to an otherwise meh S3 LSG shooting unit. The M.G Tommy earns his points back and is definitely a Swiss Army knife, which only a few races can claim of their Mages. If my he sucks at casting magic in a game (he is a level 3 by all means lol +3 to dispell and knows 3 spells) then the shooting makes sure he isn't a bust.

Besides taking the R.B on a Lvl 2 the only other time I would run a magical bow is on a chicken with a Prince or in a unit of Shadow Warriors. Brutally, and sadly so, S.W suck and are really just there to be a delivery system for a Prince with such a bow and to give him meat shields as they get shot at by other small arms units. However that being said it can be a nice change/fluffy/surprise that a S6 shot or 3 S5 shots are delivered on a Heavy Cav unit first turn or a monster etc. . .


Magic Weapons:

I disagree that magic weapons are useless on H.E characters. On lord level characters it can be useful as there are units out there that are ethereal or otherwise get ward against normal attacks. Grant it not very often, however options like Foebane and White Sword are the only options from the H.E book worth giving a look at, while perhaps SoAH or SoM could be useful on Nobles on Mounts such as Great Chickens and Dragon Ponies. Magic weapons can be useful, only in certain situation and builds though.

Scarvet: How does Korhil edge Carayden? He may be cheaper and have 4 attacks now with K.B, but he has a +4 A.S(? maybe a +5 can't remember) and like the Noble in the first paragraph i mentioned can be easily killed in combat with just a (C.W or Sarsus or Chosen etc. . . champion). He is good, cheap and providing stubborn is huge. However, if he doesn't K.B his challenger, thats 140 given away and stubborn lost.

Meanwhile Carayden for 35 more points causes Fear (nerfed but none the less can help in a challenge), Magic Rez 2, has a +4 Ward, higher I (I believe), a blade that is more a guarantee of killing a challenger than that of Korhil's K.B as it its doing D3 wounds -helpful as its magical and flaming, good for ethereal- and most will D6 wounds when he dies to the model that kills him. . . . Um, I'm going with Carayden if I want Stubborn (which is arguable that you don't need) take Crown of Command.

Godswildcard: That list isn't that broken at all. To be honest the S.M the scariest thing on the list will be ripped to shreds if they fight anything with saves, T6 , mass infantry or unbreakable. That is also before magic and shooting, good luck if they have pie plates our S.M are bye-bye.

Also, cut the Noble (free V.P), cut four D.P's, and F.C unless your taking a standard, in which case the only one's worth looking at are Ellyrion and Flamming attacks (which Flamming attacks should be put on the LSG).

40 LSG? I'm guessing horde? Fine. Everyone has their cup of tea, I've tried it. It can be devastating, or suck depends on opponent and opponents army comp. However, if your going to horde them, your going to want more around 52-63. Gives you about a rank or two of extra wounds, and allowing you to attack in 5 ranks (the purpose of hording them). If you disagree, really you think your going to get that unit into combat with 40 guys fully intacted? Good luck.

How do you get points for more models though? Answer? Drop the archers. They are useless and a points sink. S3 shots wont do anything to unit save for T2 non A.S units. Congrats, you just raped slaves or skinks, here come Rat Ogres or Sarsus.

Lastly, if your running a LSG horde, it is really helpful to have a Bsb with the A.P banner *I REPEAT* it is really helpful to have a Bsb with the A.P banner. 51 Flamming, -1 A.S attacks in C.C me likey. That dosen't even count your flamming, -1 A.S volleys either. This ed the Lion Standard is really ovrecosted and competing for more cost/benefit banners ie; BoEF.

*Of Note: your BsB should be run on a B.steed, shield, D.A, +2 A.S. Not meant for killing only buffs.

Edit:

Star Lance I can't justify as it gives you S7 with no A.S for a turn. Cool, you did 2-3 wounds if they don't have a ward. What would your Prince be going after anyways? Monsters or machines with 4-6 wounds and charcters. Thus, you won't kill the monster in one turn with the Prince himself, and against a charcter, it won't kill them in one turn either, they have a Ward save in almost all cases. Next turn the Prince is S4 and what do you know? That charcter or monster you were going up against is now unkillable against S3 and S4 attacks. Essentially, your S.O.L.

Therefore, you myaswell run him with a G.W or another cheaper magic weapon that will do just about the same amount of damage that will 10-40 points cheaper and free up magic points. These points are always useful on a T3 elf.

Chicago Slim: No archers see the my earlier anaylsis above.^^^ Use those points on the W.L. Again in above^^^ as with the LSG in Gods. . . post if you except to hit lines with that unit intact, your delusional. Agasint dwarves espcially, if your adament about running Horde on the W.L then do so, however use the archers points to meet your core requirement or expand the W.L. I would advise about somewhere in the mid 40's. Cut out the S.M if and add D.Ps and or add to your W.L unit. Take A.P banner on the P.G (makes them like S.M, but with roughly 5 less attacks. However, they have a ward save and cause fear. Sign me up) and run the BoS banner on the W.L horde. If want the W.L or P.G to survive more take the -1 to shooting talisman in (forgot name) on a noble with SoM/SoAH, make him mounted and give him a shield etc. . .

If you do take a unit of D.P's as advised, take one unit of 7 or 8 with S.B and Ellyrion Banner (:D thats right I'm in the woods) or two units of 6 with S.B's and the Ellyrinon Banner and the extra Movement Banner that the W.L previously had on the other.

if you have more Eagles, they can do wonders, 3-4 agaisnt dwarfs can be adivsed. Also remember screening tatics. For example: P.G infront of Spearmen etc. . .

scarvet
29-09-2010, 18:25
Scarvet: How does Korhil edge Carayden? He may be cheaper and have 4 attacks now with K.B, but he has a +4 A.S(? maybe a +5 can't remember) and like the Noble in the first paragraph i mentioned can be easily killed in combat with just a (C.W or Sarsus or Chosen etc. . . champion). He is good, cheap and providing stubborn is huge. However, if he doesn't K.B his challenger, thats 140 given away and stubborn lost.

Meanwhile Carayden for 35 more points causes Fear (nerfed but none the less can help in a challenge), Magic Rez 2, has a +4 Ward, higher I (I believe), a blade that is more a guarantee of killing a challenger than that of Korhil's K.B as it its doing D3 wounds -helpful as its magical and flaming, good for ethereal- and most will D6 wounds when he dies to the model that kills him. . . . Um, I'm going with Carayden if I want Stubborn (which is arguable that you don't need) take Crown of Command.

Why think about defense when you opponent is dead?;)
Both char are I7.
3S5 attack sucks, against any well armoured opponent it is useless. In fact, Caradryan have a good chance NOT killing a troll despite flaming and D3 wounds.

As for the 35pts saving, I can get "unless" item like Reaver bow instead of a long bow for my Noble.

Trains_Get_Robbed
29-09-2010, 19:03
I'm still missing your point though Scarvet. If the purpose is to accept challenges and tie up charcters that would oherwise decimate your fragile mage, Korhil is not going to get the job done.

In addition: what do you mean that S5 is useless? What charcter is honestly T6? Name one that isn't a Sp. Charcter. Maybe a Chaos Lord that rolled Eye of the Gods, or Temple of Skulls praying. Other than that your wounding on T4 and T5 models if Lord level charcters, thus 4's or 5's to wound. More imnportantly though, you will have all 3 of your attacks hit home with Caradyen as opposed to Korhil as I beleive Carayden has a higher I than Korhil does, and most Lord levels are I6 or I7. Rerolling to wounds is huge for orhil and will give him statistically an actual chance to wound.

Remember though, that Korhil will only be doing a single wound per attack if he dosen't K.B his opponet and after that turn he will be dead. As stated in my last post above^^^. However if Caradyen gets in a challenge he has the chance to do up to 9 wounds, and also if he only does one wound, it can very well be more than one wound; two or three instead. He can survive multiple turns in a challenge and when he dies, he is practically guranteed to do another wound which again could possibly kill that charcter that may have taken wounds earlier in the combat. Thus, saving your otherwise dead mage. :D

"Unless" item = I'm assuming you meant useless and was infering that I thought that the R.B was useless? I didn't say that :p I said that I find the R.B to be useless on a Noble. I however, do take the R.B every game, I do so on my LvL 2 mage as stated in the my last post above^^^. The mage's name is Tommy, and he has a Machine Gun aka M.G Tommy. :D

Edit: Come to think of it your Troll example makes no sense at all. :D lol no offense. Trolls have no A.S right? They are T5 and have Regen. So with Caryaden your hitting with all the attacks and wounding on +4, doing D3 wounds per wound with no Regen save as it's flamming. Howevr, Korhil can't Killing Blow a troll as they are Monsterous Infantry and can only reliably kill up to one troll, which is not really reliable as the trolls still get their Regen saves and Korhil still needs 3's to wound. Also, the max damage output Carayden could kill 9 Trolls from attacks alone in combat and 2 more from dying, five trolls in all!!! Korhil? he can kill 1.33 Trolls. . . yeah again Carayden most the time. :D

scarvet
29-09-2010, 19:24
I am just saying you have over estimated Caradryan.
3*3+re-roll*3+wound*average of 2 from D3 =3.55 wounds, which means Caradryan have a good chance fail to kill a troll despite all the benefits.

Also, S5 suck isn't because of high T, but inability to would T4 effectively and have less armour piercing. And as I said, both char is I7, there is no difference on this matter.

The only opponent that Caradryan do better than Korhil is KB immune Vampire which doesn't have decent save nor ASF.

EDIT: fix formula, as much as the number looks good, getting 2 3+ to wound from 3 attacks is too optimistic.
As against monstrous models, S5 is just not enough.

ColShaw
29-09-2010, 19:52
Trolls are only T4, so Caradryan actually will kill them pretty reliably.

Caradryan kills better than Korhil anything that has Regenerate, or is larger than man-sized, and thus immune to Killing Blow. Also, his Ward save makes him a LOT more durable in ongoing combat, if he DOESN'T kill the enemy.

Pulstar
29-09-2010, 20:39
Korhil is way better to go drinking with.

Caradryan just sits there and doesn't say anything. It's kind of creepy.

ColShaw
29-09-2010, 20:59
In addition: what do you mean that S5 is useless? What charcter is honestly T6? Name one that isn't a Sp. Charcter. Maybe a Chaos Lord that rolled Eye of the Gods, or Temple of Skulls praying.

Orc Big Boss or Warboss with Armor of Gork. I actually run my Warboss with it all the time.

In a Night Goblin unit, with Nets, he's effectively T7!

scarvet
29-09-2010, 21:11
Orc Big Boss or Warboss with Armor of Gork. I actually run my Warboss with it all the time.

In a Night Goblin unit, with Nets, he's effectively T7!
Let me chip into this as well.

If they have trickster's helm than Caradryan would have an even harder time putting a wound on. With KB, they are done for without ward.

Aristocrap
30-09-2010, 00:11
So I'm fairly certain I'll be starting High Elves. However, I have a few questions regarding army composition.

I want to start out with a relatively small army. I was thinking about using a Lvl 2 Mage with a Silver Wand and a BSB with GW and Golden Armour to lead it. As for Core, 2 units of 25 spearmen with Full Command and 2 units of 10 archers. As for my special slots, I was considering a 20-man units of Sword Masters with Full Command; the Bladelord equipped with Talisman of Loec. I also really, really like Dragon Princes and would use them as a hammer unit to flank blocks engaged with my spearmen. Not sure how many to use or how to equip them, though. Finally, a pair of eagle fill up my Rare slots to go after war machines and the like.

Does this sound like a decent start? I haven't added up the points just yet. As my army grows, I was considering a Lvl 4 Archmage. Also, what kinds of tactics are High Elves well-suited for?

Tarian
30-09-2010, 00:28
High Elves are almost always outnumbered, but usually outclass their opponents. Watch out, since your units are all glass hammers pretty much, with Phoenix Guard being the most survivable of them all. Picking fights is pretty important, as you don't have units to lose.

As for your start, it seems like a decent start, but I personally loathe HE archers.

Trains_Get_Robbed
30-09-2010, 01:03
Scarvet: OTS is rarely taken from what I've seen as other enchanted items from people's A.B can be better sometimes (that is something to look out for though).

Carayden wounds better than Korhil, period. Korhil is S6, that is not that big of a difference from S5, not to mention that a -2 and a -3 to A.S isn't that big of a difference either. Thats a +3 up or a +4 A.S, whooped-dee-doo. With K.B Korhil is not trying to wound the model to death he is trying to outright K.B which has a good chance of not happening. Where as Carayden is trying to wound the model to death, which effectively means if he gets one wound through he could kill the lord/hero character.

However, what if something profound happens, egads! What if for example Korhil and Caradyen fail to kill their target character after going first? The return attacks from anything, EVEN A CLAN RAT CHAMPION is going to wound Korhil, as opposed to Carayden which has a +4 A.S.

What if they both die? Well Caradyen auto D6 wounds anything that killed him, unlike Korhil, so even in death Carayden is killing more than Korhil. End story, I'm sick of repeating myself.

Saying S5 and 3 attacks aren't good enough isn't valid enough, thats like me saying 4 attacks isn't good enough. . . ?

Math: I can't believe I'm doing this (*I HATE MATH PLEASE FEEL FREE TO CORRECT ME!!!!!)

Korhil against WS 6:

1/2 hits, rerolls 1/2 hits again. 3 hits.

To wound on an average T4 Lord: 1/2 chance to K.B, 1/3 of a chance not to wound.
Hypothetical roll, gets a 1,4,6. One K.B, and one wound.

Most Lords and Heroes have a +1 or +2 A.S? Safe to assume? So thats either +4 or +5. And most characters have a ward, safe to assume? +4 or +5. A 1/2 or 1/3 a chance to save the K.B.

Overall: The Lord/Hero would either be dead or have suffered 0-1 wound (again a 1/2 chance). A good chance to be alive and kicking.

Carayden:

Against same opponent: Hits 1 and 1/2, rerolls both dice hits 1 1/2 again, thus either he hits all or hits with 2.

To wound agaisnt T4: Needs a 3+ rolls with 3 dice gets two, with two dice theres a 2/3 a chance to wound with 2 dice, thus for this purpose will say wounds twice.

A.S: Either a +3 or a +4. 1 wound gets through as the odds are 1/2.

Ward Save: 1/2 chance to save the wound.

Overall: The Lord/hero has taken a 1/2, 2/3 chance to take a wound, and a 2/3 chance to die outright if a Hero, or a 1/3 chance of a Lord.

Like I have been arguing, Carayden is better as he has a chance to put more wounds onto a model in combat with him. Also the above dosen't even do the strikes back assuming Korhil and Carayden fails to kill their opponent, in which case Korhil is all but dead (one of many points i have brought up as well).

Conclusively: If you have the points to take either model in a unit with a fragile mage to accept challenges so mr. mage dosen't get stomped on, take Carayden as he is the better man for the job. I'm also done trying to prove this to you so feel free to willy-nilly.

PS. Please also someone check my numbers, I hate math, and as a result suck at it at times.

scarvet
30-09-2010, 08:05
Carayden:

Against same opponent: Hits 1 and 1/2, rerolls both dice hits 1 1/2 again, thus either he hits all or hits with 2.

To wound agaisnt T4: Needs a 3+ rolls with 3 dice gets two, with two dice theres a 2/3 a chance to wound with 2 dice, thus for this purpose will say wounds twice.

A.S: Either a +3 or a +4. 1 wound gets through as the odds are 1/2.

Ward Save: 1/2 chance to save the wound.

Overall: The Lord/hero has taken a 1/2, 2/3 chance to take a wound, and a 2/3 chance to die outright if a Hero, or a 1/3 chance of a Lord.

Like I have been arguing, Carayden is better as he has a chance to put more wounds onto a model in combat with him. Also the above dosen't even do the strikes back assuming Korhil and Carayden fails to kill their opponent, in which case Korhil is all but dead (one of many points i have brought up as well).

Conclusively: If you have the points to take either model in a unit with a fragile mage to accept challenges so mr. mage dosen't get stomped on, take Carayden as he is the better man for the job. I'm also done trying to prove this to you so feel free to willy-nilly.

PS. Please also someone check my numbers, I hate math, and as a result suck at it at times.
3*3/4*2/3*1/2*1/2=3/8; 37.5% Chance you can put a wound on opponent's Hero/Lord. Thus you get 24.75% chance killing a hero and 12.4% chance killing a Lord on T4 and 2+ AS.

4*3/4*1/6*1/2=25% flat chance killing KBable char regardless of toughness or armour. That's before adding normal wounds.

Another problem with 3+ wound is that trying to get 2 wounds from 3 attack is actually harder the it looks, even with re-roll to hit.

Extra -1 armour save is huge, especially for 2+.

And relying yourself being lucky on rolling ward as a T3 Elf?:rolleyes:

salamander
30-09-2010, 16:56
A little help needed from my fellow HE generals. I regulary play against Skaven and can deal with pretty much anything they throw at me other than the plague furnace, Its the one unit that I can never seem to get rid of whenever I face it. What do/would you guys use to get rid of the bloody thing?

Francis
30-09-2010, 19:42
Drown the damn thing in tears? I hate the furnace myself. Now on a serious note Pit of Shades, Purple Sun or Phoenix Guard to the front and Sword Masters to it's flank.

Tarian
30-09-2010, 21:29
Kill the monks as much as you can, so they can't push the bloody thing... perhaps Dwellers on it.

Benkei
30-09-2010, 23:10
Just Spirit Leech it to death, it's Ld 0 after all

scarvet
01-10-2010, 03:37
Just Spirit Leech it to death, it's Ld 0 after all
I think it can use the Plague priest LD 6 as a monster mount...yeah...6...

Chicago Slim
01-10-2010, 04:35
Thanks for the comments. On reflection, I'm definitely going to trade out my archers in favor of more spears (3 units of 40, roughly, to fill the Core requirements at 4500 points!) I'll have to proxy one unit (which is why I was going with Archers, really, but I'm over it...)

I've also decided to split the White Lions into two units of 14 each (instead of one unit of 30-- the costs work out comparably), as it will allow me to focus my fire a bit better (if I manuever correctly, I can get both units on a single target, or if it makes sense to split them up and have two hammers for units that are anviled by spears, I'll have that option). My Stubbornness still applies, and I'm still looking at getting every last model fighting whenever they're in...

My concern about bringing Dragon Princes still remains: they're an obvious target for Thunderers. Okay, sure, so's the Dragon Mage-- but he'll take more shots before going down... and the points are about the same.

I like the Razor Banner on Phoenix Guard. They're still not as offensively powerful as Swordmasters, by a long shot (not only are they 2/3 as many attacks, but they're -1 to wound, and -1 to hit most Dwarves, though the reroll helps mitigate that a little...). Still, I might give it a go.

More news after the big game on Sunday!

Trains_Get_Robbed
01-10-2010, 04:47
P.G may not kill as much as W.L and S.M, however, unlike the others above hey don't die in droves after the return attacks. It dosen't matter how "much" C.R your going to generate if S.M are just going to give it right back. With the +4 Ward from the P.G you can effectively say NO to the Dwarf units and spill their beer in from their hands and cackle as the Elven Gods protect you from return attacks, and run down the short folk.

ScytheSwathe
01-10-2010, 10:07
Phoenix guard get mindrazor now and then:
Swordmasters get shield of saphrey as often as possible.

Its swings and roundabouts to be honest, mindrazor may be harder to cast, but they dont 'need' it. I still prefer phoenix guard.

Desert Rain
01-10-2010, 12:57
I think it can use the Plague priest LD 6 as a monster mount...yeah...6...
No it can't, it's in the FAQ. If you target the furnace you use its Ld of 0 and if you target the priest use his value of 6.

Roman_Legion88
02-10-2010, 03:00
Is the unit champion for swordmasters worth the points? The extra attack don't necessarily seem worth it but being able to have some magic items is a nice bonus. I was thinking of equipping him with the potion of strength or talisman of Loec. Either would given a good surprise in a challenge situation. Any thoughts on the matter?

wilsongrahams
02-10-2010, 03:49
The extra attack may not be worth the points but a small trinket that benefits the whole unit is great - I like to give them magical attacks just to avoid having them held up by some pesky ethereal units.

scarvet
02-10-2010, 05:29
No it can't, it's in the FAQ. If you target the furnace you use its Ld of 0 and if you target the priest use his value of 6.
But the monstrous cavalry rule......
Either way, it is dead :p

Nerje
02-10-2010, 06:21
Alright, so my opponent showed his true Skaven colours last night and surprised me with two Doom Wheels. It hurt, tearing up an entire flank (my LSG, archers, and archmage who didn't hit a single model with Pit; useless sod).

What can I take next game that is just as evil?

p.s. I'm in love with Ellyrian Reavers; I used 2 units of 5 as a screen, and shot out his globadiers, then drew his Rat Ogres out and clogged up his battleline. They fled through the Spearmen and Swordmasters who comfortably passed Ld. and countercharged, leapfrogging into the two Clanrat hordes behind them in turn 2. Meanwhile the reavers were untouched and set off to absorb some of that nasty Doom Wheel lightning that was annihilating my flank. I think Reavers are very flexible and underrated, because feigned flee has a lot more scope in a high leadership army.

Tarian
02-10-2010, 09:53
Problem with reavers for me is that they're fragile and expensive for what they do. They're good against warmachines that can only target a single model (ex. Cannon) but any multi/area damage, and they're going to bite it pretty big.

You know its a problem when Gobbo bows are worrying...

Von Wibble
02-10-2010, 11:27
Alright, so my opponent showed his true Skaven colours last night and surprised me with two Doom Wheels. It hurt, tearing up an entire flank (my LSG, archers, and archmage who didn't hit a single model with Pit; useless sod).

What can I take next game that is just as evil?

p.s. I'm in love with Ellyrian Reavers; I used 2 units of 5 as a screen, and shot out his globadiers, then drew his Rat Ogres out and clogged up his battleline. They fled through the Spearmen and Swordmasters who comfortably passed Ld. and countercharged, leapfrogging into the two Clanrat hordes behind them in turn 2. Meanwhile the reavers were untouched and set off to absorb some of that nasty Doom Wheel lightning that was annihilating my flank. I think Reavers are very flexible and underrated, because feigned flee has a lot more scope in a high leadership army.

Best counter for the doomwheel is to charge it. Its average speed is 10.5 inches, which is less than even your infantry (although banner of +1M can make sure). Ld 7 means it won't last long.

If the skaven player holds the doomwheel in reserve then the lightning is hitting his own troops - for this reason it is often used to counter armies attempting to flank it.

My only issue with the doomwheeel is that is can by the rules charge units it can't see. Other than that a couple in an army is not unreasonable - at least they aren't HPAs.

Unit champions aren't bought for the attack, they are bought for the challenge rule. As the magic attacks only work against ethereal nowadays my own preference for items is helm of fortune on a drakemaster (1+ rerollable save means little overkill in challenges), potion of toughness (for similar reasons), Ironcurse Icon, or Gem of Courage. Potion of Strength is imo of limited use - you are already S5 and therefore only get +1 to wound unless you are upp against T5 enemies. Much better to give this to a character with lots of attacks, eg prince with blade of leaping gold.

I agree with Tarian on Ellryian reavers. Currently, with bows, they are worth about 16 points each not 24. For just a few more points you can have dragon princes, which are going to worry the opponent far more, or for less points a tiranoc chariot, which provides excellent support for your infantry.

scarvet
02-10-2010, 13:31
They are only 19pts if you gave up the spear.....

You can also consider Sliver helms, take 2or3 small unit for missile/warmachine hunting seems reasonable.

Roman_Legion88
02-10-2010, 16:02
Unit champions aren't bought for the attack, they are bought for the challenge rule. As the magic attacks only work against ethereal nowadays my own preference for items is helm of fortune on a drakemaster (1+ rerollable save means little overkill in challenges), potion of toughness (for similar reasons), Ironcurse Icon, or Gem of Courage. Potion of Strength is imo of limited use - you are already S5 and therefore only get +1 to wound unless you are upp against T5 enemies. Much better to give this to a character with lots of attacks, eg prince with blade of leaping gold.


Hadn't thought of using the unit champions to prevent combat resolution from enemy characters through the defensive, usually try to kill them first [hence potion of strength of Talisman of Leoc]. Potion of Strength does also modify enemy armor save more even if only marginally increases chance to wound. Of course I am usually playing 1K games where there aren't a lot of tooled up lords running around--hence my blademaster has a chance of killing heros in a challenge. The bonus victory points are nice.

Desert Rain
02-10-2010, 18:35
I always use a champion in every unit in my army apart from cavalry and archers. The benefit is almost always worth the cost, and they make the unit look nice.
A swordmaster champion with talisman of loec is a great at killing heroes or putting some wounds on a monster.

Chicago Slim
02-10-2010, 18:41
P.G may not kill as much as W.L and S.M, however, unlike the others above hey don't die in droves after the return attacks. It dosen't matter how "much" C.R your going to generate if S.M are just going to give it right back. With the +4 Ward from the P.G you can effectively say NO to the Dwarf units and spill their beer in from their hands and cackle as the Elven Gods protect you from return attacks, and run down the short folk.

Yes, P.G. will survive better. Problem is, the only reliable way to pick up points from hard Dwarven infantry armies (like my mate plays) is to kill every last one of them. What with them being Stubborn on a 10, with a reroll, and able to roll their Ld. test on a single 1d6 the first time, there's really no opportunity to "run down the short folk."

Nope, for me tomorrow, it's got to be all about the killing-- which is why I'm taking LOTS of White Lions! If I can pick even just one of his good units and take it out completely, I should do quite well (since they run 600-800 points per unit!)

Trains_Get_Robbed
02-10-2010, 23:43
C.Slim: ^^^ I don't honestly see the fetish in taking that many W.L against A.S armies of Dwarfs, L.M etc. . . but they will be better then S.M (I never take S.M as they die way to easily[a stiff brezze perhaps] and eventually just die or run away. I don't care that I'm hitting on 3's wounding on 3's most the time as I get to reroll my misses anyways and would love wounding on 2's with no -3 A.S thus giving your enemy 'hardened gits' no A.S or 6+ 6++.). W.L will serve well, but remember like S.M they will bite hard in return attacks, thus the best solution is to try and buff them somehow, if your not going to take a hammer-anvil like P.G.

Infiltraitor
02-10-2010, 23:51
Forgive me if this had been covered already, but does any have a solid tactic or any good advice on how to handle Plague Bearers? There just too resilient and when combined with a herald, the additions he add (to date I've seen poison wounds counting double and units in base to base lose ASF.) A pair of these units and a GUO are my bane. I can't come up with anything to reliably combat them.

YoungKing
03-10-2010, 02:08
Hey guys, since the new models are finally out I can pick some up relatively soon and continue to get my army going.

Just wanted to get your thoughts on a 1250 starter army I'm thinking of using as a base to learn the game and army. Here's what I'm going for.

Mage, lvl2, Silver Wand 145
Mage, lvl2, Seerstaff: 165

32 Spearmen, FC: 313
15 Phoenix Guard, FC, BoS: 305
10 White Lions, FC: 180
Lion Chariot: 140

Comes to 1248 points, Exactly 50% of 1250 on Special.

So obviously, the negatives to this army are: No standard bearer, No shooting units, and maybe it's just me, but not many models. I decided to take another Mage over the BsB, mainly because the regular setup costs 168 points, putting me literally 1 point over the 25% limit... Shooting units for High Elves I don't see the strength in. Archers? Meh, same with Sea Guard. Not fond of taking a Bolt Thrower either. Hoping my magic can augment my lack of shooting.

And yeah, doesn't seem like a whole ton of models. I originally thought of taking 20PG, but wanted to have some more flexibility and 15 seems fin to me in a lower point game.

With the Lion Chariot and White Lions, I feel that I've got somewhat of a punch where needed, as both can dish out a lot of S5 or 6 attacks, and the spearmen make a solid Anvil.

On the Mages, I think I wold take Life on the Seerstaff mage, Shadow on the Wand mage.

Now that I look at the list, I'm definitely not sure about the two mages, and would consider a noble instead of a mage, if anyone has suggestions. I also felt the LC would be a better option than 5 Dragon Princes.

I feel like I still need to find the right balance between large enough units but enough variety.

Thoughts, comments, tactical advice is appreciated.;)

Nerje
03-10-2010, 04:53
Forgive me if this had been covered already, but does any have a solid tactic or any good advice on how to handle Plague Bearers? There just too resilient and when combined with a herald, the additions he add (to date I've seen poison wounds counting double and units in base to base lose ASF.) A pair of these units and a GUO are my bane. I can't come up with anything to reliably combat them.

I've done nasty things to Plague Bearers with a sizable unit of Shadow Warriors, my favoured unit size is 11 w/champ + Noble w/ Shadow Armour and Reaver Bow (or foe bane if I want to grief his Rat Ogres). Deploy them in the path of the Plague Bearers and make sure that your flee corridor runs through your BSB bubble. First turn, bait them out of the battle line with a flee reaction and get your 9/10 Ld. test w/ re-roll on turn 2. Then just shoot the pus out of them. Keep in their face and stand+shoot if they get a second charge. This is where you can re-direct them for flank charges etc. 12 should be survivable enough to anchor the Plague Bearers until turn 3 charge.

(inb4 I know the SW are over-costed from a competitive perspective, but vs. Skaven they aren't too shabby what with SoA, and longbows. 12 of them deployed correctly can do a horrendous amount of damage to extremities of a Skaven battle line, such as weapon teams and giant rats. Additionally; Skaven are generally so overpopulated that you can clog up their movement from turn 1 if you draw out the important units and get them in the way. Try "hiding" your hammer units like Swordmasters next to impassable terrain and watch what happens when your opponent needs to move a Clanrat horde across the battleline to tie them up - a traffic jam perfect for Purple Sun of Nomorefriends)

Might as well mention that my friend Cheesebeard McDodgypants was incorrectly interpreting the Doomwheel rules as d6 hits per bolt (x3). Obviously now he has been corrected, he feels ashamed, but also relieved that he didn't buy the models yet. He also peed in my attic and chewed up my newspaper. Skaven, eh?

scarvet
03-10-2010, 06:25
I though PB doesn't get ward and regen but have to choice either...

As for SM or WL argument: WL is better in bullying large block of Thunderer/LBRanger/LB in general, while SW is better for smacking Hammers/Slayer/Tin cans.

Infiltraitor
03-10-2010, 16:57
Sorry about the confusion, I meant Plague Bearers, core choice from the demon army. A herald in the unit gives them regenerate and he also negates the rank breaking if you catch his unit on the flank. Anything in base to base with him loses ASF. I'm often facing a pair of those units.

The great unclean one is the worst of it though. Bale Sword and enemies always strike last when in base to base with him. I don't think theres a reliable answer for this combo.

wilsongrahams
03-10-2010, 19:56
Sorry about the confusion, I meant Plague Bearers, core choice from the demon army. A herald in the unit gives them regenerate and he also negates the rank breaking if you catch his unit on the flank. Anything in base to base with him loses ASF. I'm often facing a pair of those units.

The great unclean one is the worst of it though. Bale Sword and enemies always strike last when in base to base with him. I don't think theres a reliable answer for this combo.

Whilst I have not actually faced this, nor can I offer sound advice, but my first thought there would be to fire bolt throwers at that unit and all other missile fire I could - and flames of the phoenix if you can get it cast off and have it.

Peder
03-10-2010, 20:31
An issue came to mind the other day when I considered the viability of the eagle mounted shooty noble. It's kind of a rules regarding question but, could I fly 20 inches and still shoot or would that count as marching?

The wording is prety clear but I kinda hoped I was missing something that allowed him to shoot after marching...

wilsongrahams
03-10-2010, 20:38
No, you're right in that you are wrong.

Flying is no longer 20" and disallow marching, but 10" with allowin marching, so moving 20" counts as marching and thus, this edition you cannot also shoot unless you have some magic item or special rule allowing you to do so.

Peder
03-10-2010, 20:56
Yeah I thought so... It makes him hardly usable, though the IOB prince as a proxy is so cool its still tempting hehe

Thanks a lot by the way :)

wilsongrahams
03-10-2010, 21:06
If you can think of a foolproof way to keep him safe it's a good way of running away and hassling units on a large table as you can march when you need to to escape and shoot the rest of the time.

b4z
04-10-2010, 20:44
Can the more knowledgeable/experienced of you suggest ways to deal with:

30 Bloodletters of Khorne [in 3x10 horde formation]
30 Bloodletters of Khorne [in 3x10 horde formation]
With leadership de-buff stuff from daemon magic items/banners.

[780 points+] As the foundation block CORE of a 2,500 point Daemon army.

I have seen this army tear through other armies easily... [backed up by 6 Bloodcrushers of Khorne and Fateweaver as well as some other stuff]

Just bounce around some ideas?

Godswildcard
04-10-2010, 21:04
Wow. Seems like all of us pointy-ears are having some issues. I got absolutely LEVELED in 2 games on friday night. 2500 points against lizzies. Granted, he was playing his 'ard boyz list, but still, I should've been able to make it past turn three, which I didn't in either game...

so basicly, I'm trying to figure out a solution to this guys Slann, which is of course lvl. 4 with the extra little power dice/spell ability and the discard 6s on my mage ability. Absolutely owned the magic phase, which I gotta admit I'm used to owning. even a dual mage (level 4 and level 2) combo just couldn't even get near this guy. I'm playing the army again this week, and I'm going to be bringing Teclis w/ lore of life, a level 2 with the GP and the silver wand running high magic, and a bsb with the banner of sorcery. comes out to an extra 2 d3 power dice and an extra d3 dispel dice, but hmmm....
Another big problem was that my Swordmasters just got destroyed by his salamanders. first game I ran one unit of 30 and they were all dead by turn 2, second game I ran two units of 15 and one was gone by turn two and the other was dead by turn 3, granted after killing off a unit of chameleon skinks. woo. I'm thinking that using a unit of 25 PG instead would better my chances a bit. My new list has 25 PG with the banner of arcane protection.

anyway, if you can make sense of any of that, what are your thoughts?

also, I'm curious...he had an ability that transfered his first miscast to my mage, who rolled a 6, which is the small template strength 10 hit and the d6 dice lost from the power pool result. I'm curious: does the d6 dice lost from the power pool take away d6 of his power dice, as that is the only 'power pool' on the board at the time? It is interesting to ponder....

b4z
04-10-2010, 21:07
Small units of Dragon Princes, seem on paper a great option to deal with Salamanders, to stop them from sterlising the units you want to survive to get into combat, since they are IMMUNE to all Breath Attacks and Flaming Attacks.
Also they have good movement[9]/march[18]/charge range[21] to engage the Salamanders quickly before they are able to dish out the damage?
The problem is, the most basic unit of 5 with a musician [for swift reform] is 160pts.
It's whether that points outlay is worth it for specifically dealing with the Salamanders... However if it allows you to carry out your own battle plan more effectively then surely it is?
[Then again, 2 Salamanders with accompanying Skinks are 150pts, so you would say so..]

scarvet
04-10-2010, 21:18
160pts for 10 Re-roll to Hit S5 attacks with 8+3D6" charge, 2+ armour and immune to flamming attacks? What else would you ask for?

wilsongrahams
04-10-2010, 21:48
160pts for 10 Re-roll to Hit S5 attacks with 8+3D6" charge, 2+ armour and immune to flamming attacks? What else would you ask for?

A pint of cider and an ice cream to relax with after mopping up those salamanders.

ScytheSwathe
05-10-2010, 13:36
Pint of cider and ice cream? Thats a strange cocktail.

I dont think youll need the banner of sorcery alongside teclis, and eagles do a fair job of holding up sallies, though dragon princes are the best choic for the job.

DwD
05-10-2010, 16:38
I'm playing with a 2500p army and currently I have Caradryan in a unit of 20 Phoenix Guards. I'm thinking of replacing him with Korhil. And instead with the free'd up points I could get a Reaver Bow on my mage.
Is it worth the trade?

scarvet
05-10-2010, 17:44
I seriously don't know what is this "Reaver bow on Mage" trend; it is terrible.

Pulstar
05-10-2010, 17:51
I seriously don't know what is this "Reaver bow on Mage" trend; it is terrible.

I agree. If your going to spend 40 points on a magic item for a mage, make it an arcane item. We have so many good ones that I can never fit all I want into my list.

Also if you going to spend 40 points on a bow, make sure you give it to someone who hits on a 2+. (Noble or lord).

Infiltraitor
05-10-2010, 19:53
Caradryan tends to do far better for me in a unit of White Lions. He makes them leadership 9 and grants the MR3. And since he goes before them with flaming attacks, he makes the unit really good at facing off against regenerating units.

DwD
05-10-2010, 20:23
I got no white lions :P What I'm curious about though is how Caradryan and Korhil performs mostly vs a warrior of chaos army. Would it be worth sacking Caradryan for Korhil and grab some item or should I just leave it?

scarvet
05-10-2010, 20:46
I got no white lions :P What I'm curious about though is how Caradryan and Korhil performs mostly vs a warrior of chaos army. Would it be worth sacking Caradryan for Korhil and grab some item or should I just leave it?
For that question, yes.
I mean if you try to convince yourself that Caradryan is good for anything but killing trolls (which Sea Guard with Flamming banner do way better), then go back a few page for some mathhammer.

Trains_Get_Robbed
05-10-2010, 21:19
Scarvet: don't start making biased, unbacked claims (thinks back to Korhil debate :rolleyes:) if you haven't tried it, then try it out. Then make judgement. I love M.G Tommy build and advise others to do it.

If your building a Prince Kit, he better have the Bow of the Seafarer, and be in a unit of Shadow Warriors or on a Great Eagle (the only time to take Shadow Warriors. Also would advise putting Alithnar in there as well. Otherwise. . . yeah your not only wasting valuable points on a hero/lord that could be multi-purpose. For example, a challenger, C.R provider, Ld provider, or even on a Dragon to tie up units, etc. . . and it will be a better buy.

However, if you make a "shooty" character it is very possible to over compensate and create multi-purpose character to go with it and thus take away points that need to be spent on troops. Not to mention any NOBLE BUILD with the Reaver Bow (I swear I have already had this argument about a week ago, I'll search for it in this thread) is just meat fodder as he either has a +5 A.S or +3 if you give him E.S, but then he is only S4. (a chariot and a spear makes him have a +1 and s5 on the charge, done this once, still a waste though. Only way I would ever run one).

In addition, if your looking for a great buy for a level 2 I always advise either Annulian Crystal and Reaver Bow/Silver Wand

Pulstar: you can't have two arcane items, Silver Wand is one, you have 40 points left what to spend it on? Why don't you make your mage multi-purpose just like your Bsb hero and combat lord and lvl 4 mage etc. . .The more options and utility one has on their units and characters the better, it means that you won't be a one trick pony.

Trains_Get_Robbed
05-10-2010, 21:21
Yes Scarvet, go back for some mathhammer, because by the second round, KORHIL IS DEAD. lol And Carayden is. . . . oh yeah, alive. Just don't fail that K.B ;).

Edit: ^^^and pray they don't have a Ward Save.

*Korhil is better served in the P.G though, and Caryaden in the White Lions. Really weird, but it just flat out performs better. :/

scarvet
05-10-2010, 21:49
I don't think that's what one trick pony means, but anyways....

Actually for the Reaver Noble I give him GW, maybe potion of recklessness/ToL (depends how many SM do I have),or Lance and Charmed shield on a Chariot.

As for gearing a Lv2, if I have a Lv2, I would not give him/her Silver Wand to begin with.

And the myth of Caradryan survives against things that isn't dead against Korhil and kill him in return, I would not even try to argue.

Trains_Get_Robbed
05-10-2010, 22:10
I don't think that's what one trick pony means, but anyways....

Actually for the Reaver Noble I give him GW, maybe potion of recklessness,or Lance and Charmed shield on a Chariot.

As for gearing a Lv2, if I have a Lv2, I would not give him/her Silver Ward to begin with.

And the myth of Caradryan survives against things that isn't dead against Korhil and kill him in return, I would not even try to argue.

Korhil "CAN" hit like a brick in combat, yes, I am not disagreeing with that. What I disagree with is justifying how is better in challenges against Lords/Heroes etc. . . The fact of the matter is, if he doesn't K.B his opponent (which there is a good chance of according to your correction on my numbers), he is dead in the water.

Well, at least your Noble's build is somewhat sensible, (just as I mentioned above originally, that is also the only way i would run mine.)

However this:

"As for gearing a Lv2, if I have a Lv2, I would not give him/her Silver Ward to begin with."

Wow . . . you just lost me, like Alice in the Rabbit hole lost. . . My view on your tactics just lost whatever is gained from the Noble on Chariot build. :eek: Is there a reason not to take a Lvl 2? :wtf: Let alone not take the Silver Wand on him? Honestly name a better point-efficient option in the H.E book? Annulian Crystal,and thats maybe assuming one dosen't take anything else on the Mage that has the Silver Wand. . . however for options thats about it for Lvl 1's and 2's.

I' am really curious as to how you kit your lvl 2's now. Actually, in general I' am really curious in what your average list looks like. :shifty::confused::p

Edit: One Trick Pony? Thats exactly what it means. I was generalizing the quip by stating that if your going for a shooting lord in your army then he is going to be doing one thing and one thing only, shooting. How is that not a proper use of one trick pony? :confused:

scarvet
05-10-2010, 22:48
Looks like your worst Nightmare.

Seer Staff give you 3~5 spells for the price of 3 Silver Wand....

Archmage and Noble is better utilities and investment compare to most combination of Prince and Lv2, thanks to odd selection of HE magic weapons.

As for that Reaver Noble, I have been using him in my Tiranoc list for a while; he is as useful an extra Chariot gets.

Kiras of the flame
06-10-2010, 03:38
I wanna put Dragon Princes in a 2k game...

would 5 suffice or should I bulk them up some more?

Tarian
06-10-2010, 03:44
I'd put more. 5 is a speed bump, and can't protect chars from Cannons etc.

Trains_Get_Robbed
06-10-2010, 04:48
Scarvet: Wait so you put a seerstaff on a level 2? . . . very situational unless you have only one or two spells you want from a specific lore?

Since when did I advocate Princes and Lvl 2's? And not Archmages? Stop twisting my words. Reading comp. man, a summarized version and more blunt version I said that it is almost mind numbing why someone wouldn't take a lvl2 in addition to a lvl 4. There are too many variables that can happen in 8th to just take a lvl4.

What happens if your lvl 4 fails reaching minimum dispell power, fails to cast a spell, or flat out dies? One is essentially, S.O.L. Plus, in addition regarding level 2's I get access to 2 more spells (3 if I take mult-purpose M.G Tommy setup) and get to throw combinations of spells from different lores at my opponent.

(On a side note, a Lvl 2 mage with the Silver Wand and the H.E special rule +1 to dispelling, is essentially by all means a lvl 3 caster for a lvl 2 price. The only thing he misses out on is the +1 to cast.)

By no means is a Lvl 2 a end all means for a magic phase. I never said that. However, there is no reason not to take a lvl 2 in a game that is 2,000 points or higher.

No offense either, but Nobles are useless unless they have a prior designated purpose. TO ALL YOU NEW/NOOB H.E STARTERS: H.e Nobles outside of the Bsb, are essentially useless the points can be better spent elsewhere or towards a Prince if your point limit allows it -unless taken for a specific reason. For example: a Noble on a Great Eagle used for Warmachine hunting in a pack of Great Eagles -done to gain a hard cover save from small arms fire-(usually 1-2, and used mainly in 5,000 points and higher or my advice on when to use one anyway) would be one.

As for Tallrian's response above ^^^, I agree 100% 5 D.P's is too small in a 2,000 game. Under 2,000 maybe, it depends on how you use them, but at 2,000 points losing just 1 affects the units hammer viability.

EnternalVoid
06-10-2010, 07:27
I actually like having the Seerstaff on a Lv2, but if I do that I do it because I only want certain spells. Then again I also have a Lv4 so my Lv2 is there just to have certain spells *and generally those from another lore*. Most of the time my Lv4 is going Shadow or Life, while my Lv2 is going High magic. The vast majority of the time he has been taking Flames of the Phoenix and Shield of Saphery. If I am against an army that FotP is not ideal I normally go with Vaulís Unmaking instead for possible getting rid of those Key magic items it seems many lists always have. On top of it I also have Drain Magic if I need it, effectively giving me 3 spells on top of the +3 to dispel for my Lv2. The fact that I have a +5 to dispel and a +3 to dispel allows me to take certain risks when they are trying to bait out dispel dice.

Part of this is because a lot of people in my gaming group has been going for those cheap options, namely Marauders with Great weapons and little else. One person has taken two units of 40 marauders with great weapons I think in every game now. Being able to threaten these cheap blocks with Flames of the Phoenix and Lurkerís Below in the same turn has done Wonders. The Lv2 can reasonable get FotP off with just 3 power dice, and with the Banner of Sorcery I generally still have enough for either two cheap spells or one big spell after FotP, If not more if I roll well. Not that long ago I managed to hit a unit of Marauders with the Withering before using Flames of the Phoenix on the unit, though I had only reduced them to Toughness 2 I still killed 65-70% of the unit in one go. The unit went from threatening my Spearmen to being afraid to charge them even after he dispelled both spells on his turn.

I have also had times where I put both Shield of Saphery and Flesh to Stone *the +2T not +4T* on a unit and weathered an insane amount of attacks.

Nerje
06-10-2010, 08:04
how do you guys deal with Queek in Stormvermin deathstars?

Francis
06-10-2010, 11:44
how do you guys deal with Queek in Stormvermin deathstars?

One word: Swordmasters. They strike first and with all those attacks Queek will in all likelihood die. He has a 3+ AS and that is it. Elves will die but so will Queek.

Desert Rain
06-10-2010, 12:47
I wanna put Dragon Princes in a 2k game...

would 5 suffice or should I bulk them up some more?
Depends on what you want them to do. I use five DPs in my 2000 points army as a flanking unit to kill light support units and perhaps flank charge some infantry block that has been engaged by one of my infantry units. However, is you want them to break units on their own you'll need about 12, but that is way to expensive in my opinion.

salamander
06-10-2010, 16:51
how do you guys deal with Queek in Stormvermin deathstars?

Last time out against Skaven I killed him with Dwellers turn 2. There are a couple of spells in the lore of death that could be used to see him off too

Trains_Get_Robbed
06-10-2010, 17:27
Queeks a jk. Seriously, as long as he isn't in a challenge, just direct attacks. Game over for him.

Jazzaar
06-10-2010, 19:15
How can one build a fun list under 3k with high elves... seems you have to leave a lot out to do so.

Pulstar
06-10-2010, 20:16
I like the lv 2 with the silver wand. (145) I like the lv 2 with the seerstaff. (165)

You can fit them both in a 2K list with your BSB (168) for a total of 478. That seems to be the best use of the 25% allowed to hero points.

Giving the mage the RB either gimps the BSB or makes you pass on the second mage.

Infiltraitor
06-10-2010, 21:20
HEs under 3k is completely feasible. I'd go with one block of Spears and a block of LSGs, no cav and 2 special choice that fit your theme or play style. The only stumbling block would be the lord choice I think.

igotafreezeray
06-10-2010, 22:48
For 2500 is it viable to take 9x DPoc with razor banner alongside them a noble GW?

Trains_Get_Robbed
07-10-2010, 00:44
Jazzar: Well if you want a elite army that participates in every phase of the game and litters the field with bodies, then H.E are your choice, if not then look towards O&G, most of their troops are interchangeable. That being said, S.W, E.R, archers, no one is stopping you from taking these. Just saying.

Trains_Get_Robbed
07-10-2010, 00:48
Sorry for a double post: igotafrezzeray: if your trying to break ranks, then no. However if your trying to rack up kills, then yes. Nobles aren't a bad option in D.P's just not great. For that Noble you can get the 2-3 more D.P's you would need to break ranks -as its inevitable for that unit to take causalities.

Running them 12 or 13 is expensive, and taking out that Noble would just make it easier to buy the unit.

Trains_Get_Robbed
08-10-2010, 08:06
Triple Post FTW. Not.

Yeah, sorry to all, I kind of, may have just streamlined the entire H.E community into decent-effective-really effective builds over in the army list section.

Please try out some of the suggestions, but also however ignoring some of my suggestions is also good so our community has creativity in all of our lists, not just a power-bulid. I just outlined the generalized/rough guidelined the best builds for 2,000-2,500.

Otherwise, keep it classy.

Tarian
08-10-2010, 17:20
I agree Trains, additionally, some "Power Builds" don't work well for certain styles, etc. Each general is a bit different, so some units may work well for one/flop for another.

Desert Rain
08-10-2010, 17:37
I agree Trains, additionally, some "Power Builds" don't work well for certain styles, etc. Each general is a bit different, so some units may work well for one/flop for another.
This.
I hear a lot of people dismissing the Tiranoc Chariot nowadays. I on the other hand use one in every game and it is doing really well. I'm even dropping my RBT for a second one once it is painted. The Tiranoc Chariot has always been a part of my High Elves, ever since I started them and it is integral to the way that I play. I would miss it a lot if I didn't include it in my army.

Trains_Get_Robbed
08-10-2010, 17:46
Very true desert and tarian. I don't won't to look like a powergamer (cause I'm not) I do often take fun lists that switch it up, and one must I feel have some creativity to an army otherwise its not theirs, its cookie cutter.

Desert: I have 3 tiranioc chariots, I love the cheapness and over mobility of the unit. It can tip combats or help do utlity things that are often needed wjen my units are off fighting the good fight.

Tarian
08-10-2010, 19:53
Heh, I consider myself a decent HE general... and I despise chariots! I prefer to use Cav for their role! See? We already disagree!

Francis
08-10-2010, 23:45
Although I have stopped using them for fluff reasons, I really like the way Tiranoc Chariots supplement my infantry and particular my spearmen and Sea Guard.

On the rare occasions I play with 3000 points or more I like to bring 3. One for each large block of core infantry I field.

Malgawth
09-10-2010, 02:09
As a new HE general I have a couple of questions. First of all about the lion chariot; is it worth fielding? I bought it because the model is really sweet and kickass and all, but so far I really haven't managed to do a thing with it. Am I just using it the wrong way? If you use it, how do you do?

Also, my goal is to play a reactive and utility-oriented list, preferably one that's able to have a word in each and every phase of the game. As 2.5k seems to be the standard in Sweden that is my goal, and after tweaking the numbers a bit I have found that I can have a very versatile list at that point value. What I'm thinking is one archmage with seerstaff and lore of life, one mage with silverwand and lore of metal and a bsb with reaver bow, talisman of protection and gw. The I have 30 spearmen, 20 LSG, 20 PG, 10 SM, 5 DP, lion chariot, 5 ER, 2 RBT and 2 eagles. This gives me mobility (eagles, ER, DP), mainstay blocks with support (spearmen, LSG and PG with DP, SM and LC), shooting (RBT's, LSG and Reaver Bow) and a ******** of magic (I also take banner of sorcery with my PG). Oh, and my spearmen will house the archmage and have standard of stability. In essence, I can seemingly play this list to adapt to more or less any situation. My concern is that even though it can do basically everything it might not be able to do anything at all very well. Except for magic.

So what do you think, is this type of versatile list a viable option (hard to play doesn't matter, I like a tactical challenge) or would I just be gimping myself fielding it?

Kiras of the flame
09-10-2010, 03:07
to Malgawth, I'm new to the Asur as well... but I've already tried out the Lion Chariot and I have to say if you field it right it's worth the 140 point price tag...
It is slower than the horse chariot I do admit this (hey they're not elven steeds...) and they don't have any ranged abilites on them... they are carried by MASSIVE LIONS!!!!

also consider that two white lions are on top of that thing... that means the chairot has Forest strider, stubborn, and +2 armor against all shooting, and they have great weapons and the 'speed of Asuryan' special rule... along with the lions who still have a good I are also str 5 as well... and they all cause fear... now that's boss

to your second answer, it depends on the points value on what happens...

If you want to be flexible, don't go overboard with one unit and spread it nicely like some silky butter... Go with units that will fit your overall plan...

most people go for LSG because they're so versatile (even though you need to pay extra for shields) and can fill our quota fast... some like spearmen because they're cheap (for high elves) and can be fielded in a horde formation...

one major pitfall that will be hard to avoid is giving some units extra gear... since we can upgrade most of our units to whatever we feel like (within their limit) it's easy to go over the points limit... it's a bit like money... watch what you get, budget yourself correctly... think ahead...

Malgawth
09-10-2010, 03:18
...is that really the case though? The stubborn part is pretty much a no-brainer, but does the chariot really get +2 as and forest-strider? If that is the case I really don't need any more motivation for taking it, I just have to figure out how to use it.

On the second one, those are all pretty self-evident. My plan will be to observe what my opponent is fielding and shift playstyles accordingly. However, my worry is that I spread my eggs out too much, and end up with a list unable to really do anything at all (except magic). The list I'm thinking of is pretty much included in my last post, what are your opinions on that?

Kiras of the flame
09-10-2010, 04:13
according to the rulebook they count as Calvary when considering special rules... so yes the cloaks AND forest-strider are in effect. just like if you put a prince in a chariot with dragon armor then they are immune to all flaming/breath attacks...

Then again I could be wrong and the rules for chariots are just what's stated... still I would get it if you want a considerable line breaker.... I've had one charge into a unit of marauders... lets just say they turned into 'red' lions later...

Basically in my thought process for the high elves, anything from Charace is considered manly and awesome since they can basically run without much fear from enemy shooting... also they have lions... not many armies can do that (which they should). In fact the only way that these guys could get manlier is if they RODE on lions... now that's awesome...


as for the list... I'd rather get the Annulian crystal instead of the seer staff. It'll pay off in the long run... good Idea on the BOS since you have 2 mages. 5 DP is considered a speed bump more than anything. the ER is also iffy... I guess you're going for the shoot-n-flee group here. as for the BSB... give him better armor... otherwise it's a good list needs some tweaking

ScytheSwathe
09-10-2010, 10:15
Sadly the 'white lions of chrace' on the chariot are not the same as the 'white lions of chrace' on foot. Their entry under the lion chariot doesnt list them as having lion cloaks, or woodsman, or stubborn.

Korhil however...

*EDIT* actually Korhil doesnt wear a lion cloak either, his magic one is phrased differently, so no 2+ there either.

Malgawth
09-10-2010, 12:30
The DP are included mainly as a support unit. But are they any good in that role, or should I drop them and include something else instead?

The crystal switch is done =) About the BSB, should I drop the bow and take the Armour of Caledor for more survivability? That would give him a 2+ save instead of 4+, but I really want to include the bow =/ I feel that I need some more shooting.

The Reavers are not up for discussion though, since they have been invaluable every game I've fielded them =) Last night, for example, they flankcharged 16 empire spearmen + warrior priest (the rest were dead to final transmutation) while the frontcharge with SM failed miserably. However, the Reavers broke the spearmen and ran them down, caused a unit of handgunners to panic off the field, pursued into the front of 7 empire knights, killed two and made them flee off the table, caused panic in a unit of greatswords and forced them totally out of position. The next round they destroyed his mortar, which was his only remaining warmachine. So, when I was in a really tight position my reavers felt my sadness and took upon themselves to go on a killing spree and rout his whole army in one turn :D

Kiras of the flame
09-10-2010, 18:16
nice on the reavers...

DP are warrior elite basically... there's nothing wrong with that... giving them the banner of Eryllion is cheap for something that allows you to treat difficult ground as open terrain... Also something like that makes sense for Caledor's finest... they're so arrogant that they make the trees move aside...

the Armor of Caledor and Guardian Phoenix is usually the basic combo that most use for their BSB. Survivability is more important with this guy, even more so in this edition...

if you want some serious firepower I consider Prince Alith Anar and some shadow warriors for these reasons:
-Cheap Special Character Lord (for what he's packing? nice)
-all shadow warriors and Alith Anar can scout and HATES EVERYONE!!! even the dark elves more (they can always re roll even past the first and second rounds))
-Awesome bow and ensured run away card (Alith's bow is basically a portable Bolt Thrower and can cause panic into dark elf units... even if they lost one guy...) While the crown he has basically ensures that he can dissapear like a ninja... (if he's breaking from combat... then pursuers must half their roll when pursuing)
-Hard to hit (+4 ward save and he as well as any unit he joins has -1 to hit... yay)

basically if you include him with 5 shadow warriors you basically got ninjas on your side...

Tarian
10-10-2010, 04:26
Alith Anar is I9 with SoA, there's not much he doesn't reroll on :D

That said, having a mobile BS7 Bolt is never a bad thing.

Trains_Get_Robbed
10-10-2010, 06:52
Ididnt know we were treating d.ps as speed bumps now. Don't tell mine that after last game. :D

Roman_Legion88
10-10-2010, 20:06
Given that Archmages seem to be becoming the "default" lord choice, I was thinking of trying out a mounted prince just to be different. I know lots of builds are discussed elsewhere, but wanted to throw this one out for comments/suggestions:

Prince, DA, Barded Steed, GW, Helm of Fortune, Temakador's Gauntlets, Talisman of Saphery and Talisman of Loec.

1+ rerollable save, 5++ against medium-high strength attacks, 4 ST6 attacks, enemy magic weapons treated as normal and Talisman of Loec to help with challenges/monster slaying.

Could drop Gauntlets and TOL and take a shield and starlance, but seems to be too dependent on the charge.

Thoughts?

Tarian
10-10-2010, 20:20
Two magic armors = no, unfortunately.

Ogre Blade does well with shield, for dropping Gauntlets and ToL.

Kiras of the flame
11-10-2010, 02:14
Starlance is only good if you're on something that's able to kill other things as well... like a dragon or a Griffon...

I don't like to use archmages as my default lord as well... I'm more of a fighty guy...

I want to try the Prince on a Griffon in a 2500 game... so I'm thinking of giving him a Great Weapon, the Armor of Caledor (the BSB is mounted on a Barded steed so it's ok) Vambraces of Defense, and the Amulet of Light...

expensive... but I'm planning to have a couple of Great eagles serve as his flank guard and to make sure that he'll get into grips against the enemy...

Tarian
11-10-2010, 02:18
Your Prince is kitted out just like mine @2500, except for the Amulet of Light, and the fact that mine's on a Star Dragon :D

Kiras of the flame
11-10-2010, 03:12
Your Prince is kitted out just like mine @2500, except for the Amulet of Light, and the fact that mine's on a Star Dragon :D

i'm a bit afraid of putting him on the star dragon... but your right... if you wanna go big go dragon... I might revamp the list to fit that

Tarian
11-10-2010, 03:29
Well, my list is heavy Caledor Theme, so lots of DPs and the Dragon Lord.

EnternalVoid
11-10-2010, 03:31
Prince, DA, Barded Steed, GW, Helm of Fortune, Temakador's Gauntlets, Talisman of Saphery and Talisman of Loec.

1+ rerollable save, 5++ against medium-high strength attacks, 4 ST6 attacks, enemy magic weapons treated as normal and Talisman of Loec to help with challenges/monster slaying.


As pointed out this is illegal. My suggestion to try and get a similar build would be the mount, Vambraces of Defense, Dragon Helm, Talisman of Saphery, GW. Not quite as good but you have a rerollable 2+ armor, 4+ ward, 4 Str6 swings plus the magic weapons treated as normal. Just about as survivalable even though it is a 2+ armor but at least you have a strait 4+ ward.

Another one I saw somewhere was a mounted Lord, with Helm of Fortune, Guardian Phoenix, Radiant Gem of Heoth, and a GW. 2+ armor rerollable, 5+ ward, decent melee, and is a mobile Lv1 spell caster. They were looking at either Life, Death, or Beast as he was with Dragon Princes. Spirit Leech from Death is mean with the Ld10. I personally want to nail a Hellcannon with it just to see the look on our recedent WoC's face. Life can give the unit of Dragon Princes a 5+ regen while they are immune to fire *not to mention heal the prince or another model near at hand when you get it off*. Beast while harder to get off, its Signature spell can really give the Dragon Princes some extra hitting power. Depending on the size of the Dragon Prince unit you can a pretty good number of Str6 attacks, plus some S4 from the mounts. Also the toughness 4 will help prevent loses in the return swings.

Hashulaman
11-10-2010, 09:29
I am wondering what to do with My mounted Prince, I would like to think he can still be useful. I am thinking Great weapon, Armor of Caledor, Vembraces and I dont know what to do with the remaining points. I was also thinking of many some Dragon Princes for a Bodyguard? I haven't played 8th as High Elves yet, I am still rebuilding my army and don't know if the mounted Prince is still a viable option.

Trains_Get_Robbed
11-10-2010, 16:21
Why do you all use aoc on your dragon mounted lords?

Tarian
11-10-2010, 16:24
I use AoC on my Dragon Lord for the 2+ and Great Weapon, else I'd use a shield and Helm of Fortune, but I like the Ward from VoD too, so it all kinda works out for me.

Desert Rain
11-10-2010, 16:32
As Tarin said, it is the cheapest way to get a 2+ save and S6. The alternative would be normal Dragon Armour, Enchanted Shield and Ogre Blade which is a lot more points.

TheKingInYellow
11-10-2010, 19:27
Big change in the new FAQ, dragon armour is now only a 2+ ward versus flaming and breath attacks...

Tarian
11-10-2010, 19:27
Yeah, so sad, so sad...

Desert Rain
11-10-2010, 20:04
What the hell!!!
Stupid unnecessary nerf :(

Tarian
11-10-2010, 20:05
Well, one advantage of it is that it stops that "Oooh, my flaming weapon is "useless" hence I'll switch to something else." Disadvantage? They can now die to flaming attacks, though a 2+ Ward is pretty good.

Jormi_Boced
11-10-2010, 21:18
I wonder if it was meant to clear up the my horses aren't afraid of flaming attacks because they are immune to fire argument?

Either way, I am happy for it. I played with a Vaul's Anvil on the board and my opponent could just park his unit there and made it completly immune to my army.

Nuggan
11-10-2010, 21:27
I don't like the change it adds unnecessary extra dice rolling and screws with the fluff. What are they going to say about Dragon Armour now?

Tarian
11-10-2010, 21:33
Dragon Princes can ride (usually) through flame (most of the time) unharmed?

Jormi_Boced
11-10-2010, 21:57
Dragon Princes can ride (usually) through flame (most of the time) unharmed?

I wish there was a good way to have them be immune to fire, but not to cannonballs.

Tarian
11-10-2010, 22:02
They did back in 6th, but Dragon Armor was pretty pointless then.

Hashulaman
11-10-2010, 22:04
We no longer can take infinite special and rare chocies now, I don't know if this is a bad thing or good, I cant think of a way to have over 6 Special chocies in under a 3k game

Tarian
11-10-2010, 22:15
Well, if you were doing MSU of one unit type, but I've never run into that problem in 8th. (or 7th, for that matter).

Kiras of the flame
12-10-2010, 00:30
I don't see any problem with it... unless you want more than 3 of the same unit...

game is good so far

ScytheSwathe
12-10-2010, 00:35
I wouldnt worry too much about dragon armour. Its not like suddenly theyve become a prime target for flaming attacks.

And to be honest i dont see being capped at 4 eagles, 4 bolt throwers and 6 units of swordmasters in 2000points being all that limiting.

Kiras of the flame
12-10-2010, 01:34
I would consider Dragon armor our 1-up against normal armored foes (similar to full plate or Chaos armor giving a +4 save...) at least it's not broken... I mean some enemies will have breath/flaming weapons... but not everyone in the army will have the same thing.... Heck going with Heavy armor is cheaper and you still get the same effect (sans fire immunity) it might just end up being one of those things that you might get just because it's something unique to us and we can use it... like giving a pistol to a mounted empire general... useless but fun

wilsongrahams
12-10-2010, 10:49
I am also of the view that a 2+ save is better as it solves a few issue, allows the unarmoured part of the horse to be hurt realistically, and as for altering the unit selection - totally agree. It stops the Great Eagle spam, and also stops the army of small swordmaster units - they should be in larger blocks because of fluff rather than small units because of a gaming advantage.

Chicago Slim
12-10-2010, 20:58
i'm a bit afraid of putting him on the star dragon... but your right... if you wanna go big go dragon... I might revamp the list to fit that

Of course, a Sun Dragon is only 30 points more than the Griffon you already have him on...

Arbiter7
12-10-2010, 21:04
I don't like the change it adds unnecessary extra dice rolling and screws with the fluff. What are they going to say about Dragon Armour now?

You can simply treat the fluff as an exaggeration.

Kiras of the flame
13-10-2010, 01:45
Of course, a Sun Dragon is only 30 points more than the Griffon you already have him on...

it's like the empire's decision on a steam tank... so hard to resist...

Arbiter7
13-10-2010, 07:20
Has anyone used a Dragon Mage in 8th?

I was thinking of one with the Ruby Ring of Rhuin, silver wand and opal amulet, or Ruby Ring and Guardian Phoenix.

If you are lucky enough to get piercing bolts or burning head, plus a fireball signature spell, you have a potential beast that gets +1 dice in each casting roll as well as a +D3 to the roll if any of those spells has been let to be cast on a single unit.

Alongside an archmage, a dragon mage can have a feast, or at least drain away dispel die so that the archmage can have one of his own.

However, he remains fragile if hit.

Opinions?

Kiras of the flame
13-10-2010, 08:01
for me Monsters are Large Targets... This means that if they're not busy chomping at the foe then more or less they'll get zapped by an enemy war machines (unless you take them out first) or any other ranged unit. It's imperative that they don't get hurt by the stuff that isn't within their range... also consider that while your mount could take the beating... the character is another thing...

a dragon mage is my only option if I'm able to get a secondary mage as well... By general rule the biggest/scariest thing in anyone's army is usually the subject to the most powerful ranged units the enemy can bear (Great Cannons, Organ Guns, Bolt Throwers)

it's a bit of a paradox... a young, fragile mage supported by a young dragon. Not really the best Idea IMHO. when I ride a dragon, I expect to take the battle to the foe...

also remember that Dragon mages are also able to have the Flaming Sword instead of Fireball...

Arbiter7
13-10-2010, 09:08
well, I include swordmasters so if he can take away some of the hurt from ranged attacks then all the better.

flaming sword sucks and more importantly, does not benefit from the lore of fire rules since it is an augment spell.

it looks like a firework, but could work against some opponents (VC, Chaos, and stuff without much shooting).

scarvet
13-10-2010, 10:48
Flaming Sword makes your opponent with Drakenholf cry.....you can of course go for Seer staff Lv2 instead to get it.....

Desert Rain
13-10-2010, 10:53
Or use the banner of the eternal flame, which at 10 points should be almost mandatory in most armies.

Pulstar
13-10-2010, 14:04
I think the best use of a Dragon Mage (with SW) is in a 1500 point list. Flying right next to a lord on a Griffon (with Dragon Armor, Lance, Charmed Shield). Both clock in under 375 points.

Add in then take a unit of SM/WL/PG and give the champ the Stein so you get the first turn.

DwD
13-10-2010, 19:16
What advice would you guys give to a Warrior of Chaos player who plays vs High Elf?

I play High Elf myself vs a Chaos guy and I just destroy him every game. So much shooting(3 bolt throwers, 20 archers, 30 LSG), and his only threat vs me is his unit of 12 chaos knights that I can control with my block of 20 phoenix guards and my 10 sword masters.

Really it feels like I'm getting all the good stuff and he gets nothing, it's starting to get boring just winning with ease every game >< Halp!

Should he switch race? Or what is a good tactic for chaos warriors?

wilsongrahams
13-10-2010, 19:42
Your opponent needs to start using cheaper units of Marauders - they are what give us a problem because of their numbers and they are still very strong.
Chaos armour is very powerful and I'm surprised those bows make much impact really.
All I can say is that WoC are usually one of the harder opponents due to tough armour, and they have high attacks and strength which means we lose a lot more unless we can kill them the same turn. There are no specific tactics other than to try to fight on your own terms - but that applies to every race in the game.

Kiras of the flame
14-10-2010, 01:24
Numbers....

one thing that (any) elves are not great at is endurance matches... I'm guessing he uses chaos warriors more than Marauders... while still tough... it's hard to field a whole lot of them enough to stop the elven hosts....

Hashulaman
14-10-2010, 10:22
Does Flaming Sowrd work on the Dragon as well? Because now FLaming sword is pretty much crap unless you are in a unit.

Yea, WoC will beat Most units' brains out, but hordes give them some problems. If he takes at least one Marauders horde MoK and Great Weapons (he would be going last even without them), or MoT and Shields he should last a little bit longer.

Kiras of the flame
15-10-2010, 02:49
the rider and the dragon both count as one unit... so yes you can have your dragon on fire as he breathes fire on people who will soon be screaming around on fire....

oh and armor piercing

Finvalen
15-10-2010, 14:17
Your opponent needs to start using cheaper units of Marauders - they are what give us a problem because of their numbers and they are still very strong.
Chaos armour is very powerful and I'm surprised those bows make much impact really.

I played my HE against a WoC army with 3 large units of Marauders (50 strong each) and one unit of 18 trolls (with the bsb in the unit). The marauders were hard enough for me to handle being in large units, like you said, but the troll unit was impossible for me to handle as they were running as a horde 6x3 - and being montrous inf get all their profile attacks in supporting attacks (aka 54 attacks.) with regen and their special regen rule that gives them buffs if they reg - it is a nasty unit for high elves to try to handle. Plus now according to the recent FAQ trolls get vomit from supporting attacks too.
What I learned is to never leave the Banner of Eternal Flame at home.

Tarian
15-10-2010, 17:05
Last time I fought large groups of big nasties, I spammed Enfeebling Foe and Dwellers Below until they went away. Taking 2 Archmages, one with Seer, one with Silver Wand, can let you pull off some nice combos.

themonad
15-10-2010, 23:33
is there a sort of comprehensive post of good newbie tactics for an entry into fantasy / high elves in general? ive been trolling through the forums and really havent come across any as of yet.

thanks!

Trains_Get_Robbed
16-10-2010, 02:08
Just thought that I let everyone know that my I took archers for the first time in 4 months, and they performed very crappily. So much of army performed very crappily that I almost lost today. I had 9 P.G left and won when my White Sword Lord bolted from the unit and into the Watchtower that his 30 Corsairs couldn't reach (we hypothetical-ed it and the Corsairs did no wounds being only S3).

Whats best tactics you all use for specific scenarios? Lets hear them. :D

One of mine is getting a unit of 19 P.G: A.P banner or 19 W.L with a Lvl 4 Archmage with ""unkillable" get out and him just spamming Lore of Life spells. Nothing removes them from the tower unless destroying the tower.

Kiras of the flame
16-10-2010, 03:43
is there a sort of comprehensive post of good newbie tactics for an entry into fantasy / high elves in general? ive been trolling through the forums and really havent come across any as of yet.

thanks!

since 8th ED is relatively new, there's no real basis on general strategy for the high elves... let alone armies in general...

everyone has their own style and way they want to play so it's not like there's a catch-all strategy for the game. if you have any questions concerning an army just ask... that's what the tactica forums are for... tactics...

If you want to play High elves, it's good to remember that we:

-ALWAYS Strike first... thus we have a free 'Sword of Might/Ogre Blade' that we can give to all our characters and they'll still have alot of points left... as all our units (sans the creatures that follow us) have ASF, that means we can throw alot of hits at the foe before they can even try to do some serious damage to us...

-Toughness 3. ok that's our major downfall... we can dish out a world of pain, sadly we can't survive long in battles of attrition, strike fast and strike hard... remember that we have a high movement speed and alot of fast units...

-Positioning and teamwork. I guess this counts for all armies.. but this is even more important to elite armies like us (we are the elite of the elite) each and every unit has a singular role in the game, they're not able to do well in other fields (except the Sea Guard but they're the exception) the army is like a music orchestra... it's beautiful when everything works together, since each unit must work at their chosen field, positioning is key, our core troops serve as the shield of our army... the elites serve as the Sword. Our characters it's mind and body...

basically work with the strong points and find out how to cover up the weak points. if you do that then you'll do fine

grhino
16-10-2010, 12:30
Spearmen are still brilliant, and LSG can now shoot in two ranks normally or in volley fire when standing still, making them very, very effective. And unit size of 18 (6x3)-20(5x4)-24(6x4)-32(8x4) will perform brilliantly when fighting to the front. The 5x4 option will give you a lot of attacks while the enemy can only use so mant models to attack them, making them a very good speedbump for basic troop hordes...

In mega-games (4000 pns+) I might field a unit of 50 LSG... that's a definite killer, but may be a point sink in smaller games.

Guardian of the Rage
16-10-2010, 13:29
Just out of curiosity, I was hoping people could submit some of the prince builds they have tried/are using. Any type, on foot mounted or monster mounted, its all interesting.

Cheers in advance,
GotR

Tarian
16-10-2010, 15:39
Mounted Prince: Helm of Fortune, Talisman of Saphery, Ogre Blade, Barded Steed, Dragon Armor, Shield.

Foot Prince: Vambraces of Defence, Armor of Caledor, Great Weapon, same for monster mounted.

Trains_Get_Robbed
16-10-2010, 23:34
Kills a Bell in one turn: Prince, AoC, G.W, Vambraces, Other Tricksters Shard, (fool's potion I would add on but, can't take that many items. :/ Oh, all mounted on a Star Dragon.

Tarian
17-10-2010, 05:27
Until the Unit Champion challenges out your Dragon Lord.

Trains_Get_Robbed
17-10-2010, 07:01
Yes, so that happens and what? You win combat by +1-3 or are even due to overkill, stay put and kill it next turn? Holds it up so your other units can advance and close on the crap combat blocks of the rats.

Tarian
17-10-2010, 07:44
Yeah, I know, but just means you might not get the bell in one turn. :3

Kiras of the flame
18-10-2010, 07:12
has anyone tried to put a mage on a monster or use a dragon mage?

the only reason I would add one would be if I had a secondary mage doing the real work... or that the mage is the general... which would make him an even bigger target than he already is...

Miredorf
18-10-2010, 11:41
Hi guys. I never play tournaments and its been like 2 years that dont even use the normal rules, but instead a hardcore set of modded house rules with my gaming group.

For this reason i didnt notice until yesterday something about the HE in the 8th edition: The7th ed book was designed so elves would need very little core, logical when all left in that departmen was spears and bows. But now we are left with a severe need of core troops (what is really good imho) but without any units in there. So are forced to take huge amounts of spears and bowmen unlike all the other armies who have a good selection of core troops.

After i read the FAQ i found quite disgusting to see that this hadnt been adressed at all, but only some weird allowance of being able to take 6 times the same special unit (is this useful ever?).

So the question basically is, how those of you who are enjoying 8th edition find this severe hampering for our army?

What are you including normally? 1 big unit of 40 spears or seaguard? plus some archers? Thanks.

King_Pash
18-10-2010, 13:33
I don't fully agree. While the new edition has not fully taken into account our armies' design with regards to minimum core, there are ways to counter-balance this.
Firstly, we are still able to field more Special and Rare choices than ANY other army in Warhammer, making the flavour of our army quite distinctly 'elite'.
Secondly, we still stay with the theme of 8th edition that Core should be more common throughout each army (as it should). High Elven host is described as 'glittering spears' etc. , as so it should be.

This does not mean that we are particularly hampered by our Core choices. Our Core is not brilliant (like Skavenslaves or Marauders) but it has its uses.
Personally, I tend to field a 10-man unit of Archers or two supported by two 20 or 25-man Spear blocks, usually with a selection of Banner of Discipline (for that nice LD9 for Mindrazor) or War Banner or even Banner of Eternal Flame. With the right magical support (I currently prefer Shadow), our Core can munch through more than their fair share of the enemy!

Vsurma
18-10-2010, 13:50
Yes, so that happens and what? You win combat by +1-3 or are even due to overkill, stay put and kill it next turn? Holds it up so your other units can advance and close on the crap combat blocks of the rats.

You are then flanked and challenged again, you get your 3 CR or so which btw makes you lose to 3 ranks and a banner so you likely lose the first turn.

Now you are also being flanked and charged, along with the 3 ranks and banner for a total of 6 CR against your 3 or so kills, losing by 3 now, not great.

Miredorf
18-10-2010, 13:56
I don't fully agree. While the new edition has not fully taken into account our armies' design with regards to minimum core, there are ways to counter-balance this.
Firstly, we are still able to field more Special and Rare choices than ANY other army in Warhammer, making the flavour of our army quite distinctly 'elite'.
Secondly, we still stay with the theme of 8th edition that Core should be more common throughout each army (as it should). High Elven host is described as 'glittering spears' etc. , as so it should be.

This does not mean that we are particularly hampered by our Core choices. Our Core is not brilliant (like Skavenslaves or Marauders) but it has its uses.
Personally, I tend to field a 10-man unit of Archers or two supported by two 20 or 25-man Spear blocks, usually with a selection of Banner of Discipline (for that nice LD9 for Mindrazor) or War Banner or even Banner of Eternal Flame. With the right magical support (I currently prefer Shadow), our Core can munch through more than their fair share of the enemy!

Hi, i think you didnt understand my post, as your response is something i fully agree with (and did in the post :p).

I personally like that you have to include a lot of core, the problem is that the army book was designed moving almost everything to special and then giving more slots there, obviously this doesnt work with the percentage system. I was talking about the lack of variety.

Also it is not completely truth that we can include more special, since the % is still 50% like everybody else. And frankly i cant think of anything that you would want to include x4 or x6.

About the units of spears, what do people normally favour, 2 20-25 man units or 1 big one of 40+? Is the horde formation worth it for spearmen? Thanks for the response.

Desert Rain
18-10-2010, 15:16
Having just 2.5 core choices is a bit dull. I don't mind 25% at all, quite the contrary but we have so few options that it becomes boring. And really, how many of you takes more than 4 of the same special unit anyway? That rule is worthless unless you are playing like 12k points.

As for spearmen I use a unit of 24 with my BSB and they work fine. Hordes of spears look impressive but they don't work very well. Our ability to strike with an extra rank basically gives us the same number of attacks as a normal horde without the need to go 12 wide and include massive amounts of models. 2 units of 25 are much better than a single unit of 50, unless you play really (really!) big games.

Kiras of the flame
18-10-2010, 16:21
I do agree that core seems to be a bit weird... but it's easy to fill those ranks in fast so I'm not annoyed... still I would like silver helms to be moved back to core because compared to DP they only have cheaper points as their advantage... also they can't carry anything special, heck you have to spend an extra 2 points for the shield...

we need some serious hitting power in our core, and while our spearmen and archers as well as the seaguard are great and reliable... we need something that's able to throw a decent punch at the enemy...

Desert Rain
18-10-2010, 16:22
*cough* mindrazor *cough*


;)

Tarian
18-10-2010, 16:27
Mindrazored spears have to be one of the scariest blocks HE can put down, especially when they're fielded deep.

Trains_Get_Robbed
18-10-2010, 16:44
You are then flanked and challenged again, you get your 3 CR or so which btw makes you lose to 3 ranks and a banner so you likely lose the first turn.

Now you are also being flanked and charged, along with the 3 ranks and banner for a total of 6 CR against your 3 or so kills, losing by 3 now, not great.

Yes, I also would get hit by slaves and then get warp-fired throw-ed in combat on top of any other fantastical operations that could happen. :wtf:

Nah, more like they are horded so a unit would have to be really close for that to happen not to mention it would stick out like a sore thumb as a not viable charge. Or you plan ahead and that block of clan rats hit you, counter-charge with your block of horded S.M and chuckle as you pump out 40 or so attacks.

Kiras of the flame
19-10-2010, 03:58
Mindrazored spears have to be one of the scariest blocks HE can put down, especially when they're fielded deep.

so... mindrazor is the answer to many of our problems...

ScytheSwathe
19-10-2010, 09:06
No. Mindrazor is one answer to many of our problems. Withering has the same effect, and is remains in play, and other spells give enough of a boost to make the sheer number of attacks brutal.

Miredorf
19-10-2010, 10:26
Do you guys feel right having to use basic lores instead our high magic?

Francis
19-10-2010, 10:34
Do you guys feel right having to use basic lores instead our high magic?

Honestly? No. Although I still use High magic when I can afford it. It isn't a bad lore and it got a great symmetry with High Elves. It's just that Life and Shadow are even better.

High magic just needs a little boost to make it great again.

Desert Rain
19-10-2010, 13:58
so... mindrazor is the answer to many of our problems...Not really, it is the best answer to a lt of our problems, but other spells are very useful for us as well. Withering has about the same effect most of the time as Mindrazor has.

ScytheSwathe
19-10-2010, 18:56
Honestly, as a second lore on my level 2 (shadow for my level 4) i find high to be more useful than life. 18" range on shield of saphrey, ward rather than regen, and lower casting value make it a better signature spell all round, proper magic missiles and flames of the phoenix all have a nice, blatent niche which life does not fill, and the lore on the whole has the flexibility which many rulebook lores lack.

The other thing high has going for it is drain magic. That, withering (RiP), and flames of phoenix (RiP) can absolutely cripple enemy magic phases allowing you to gain the upper hand rapidly. Although as a combo, it requires a bit of luck to cast all 3 in the first place.

BBWags
20-10-2010, 00:51
I have played ONE game of 8th edition with my High Elves. Incidentally, that makes TWO total games of FB in total :-) So yeah, I'm a newb. I played a pretty basic list at 1250 points and learned quite a bit about the way HE play, at least as far as the core choices. I LOVE how Great Eagles can swoop in and tie up or destroy enemy war machines for such a low cost. Also, re-rolling to-hits is pretty darn nifty.

A few questions that I was not able to test for answers on my own, however, are -

1. What value do people put on the Repeating Bolt Throwers. It seems to me that they are pretty good no matter what you have in range: either do multiple wounds in one shot to a monster or pepper a rank and file unit. But the price tag does seem to be a bit . . . pricey. But thats just me without any real knowledge of how much other armies pay for their warmachines. What do you guys think? 1250 is going to be my standard game size, perhaps 1500 points. Would 2 RBTs be completely overboard at those levels?

2. At 1250 points, you don't have alot of extra points to waste, so I'm wondering when it comes to generals and BSBs. I've been told BSBs are just about mandatory now, but at 1250 points, if you have a well kitted general or mage plus a BSB, that's a HUGE portion of your army in 2 models. Can you forgo the BSB at a lower point level? I didn't have a BSB in that first game and it didn't seem to hurt me, but then again, my opponent was just as inexperienced as me, so he didn't really take advantage of my lacking.

3. I plan on using a 5 man unit of Dragon Princes in my next game. In such a small unit, do I need to worry about a musician or standard bearer? That's quite a few points I could free up if I don't need them. What do you think?

Also, am I correct in that even though they won't break ranks, its still a good idea to slam them into the side of a unit because that minimizes supporting attacks coming back at me?

4. Do you think a level 2 wizard can pull enough magical weight in a 1250 point game or do I need to go the full way of a level 4? Does anyone actually get an archmage WITHOUT upgrading to level 4?

Thanks a lot for the insight!

By the way, I thoroughly enjoyed my first game both of High Elves and 8th edition! It's all good!

Tarian
20-10-2010, 01:14
1) Compared to other Warmachines, I think they're overpriced, but I still take 2, even at 1k.

2) You can always leave the BSB behind, but I'd recommend having one.

3) They might not even need a champ, honestly, and yes, they're also good for providing kills to help out a weaker block.

4) Yes, a level 2 is fine for that I think as you can take the Silver Wand and the Banner of Sorcery for a mean magic phase for a level 2, and no, I never do.

Good luck with them!

scarvet
20-10-2010, 04:24
Actually you may want to use Seer Staff just for right spells.

BBWags
20-10-2010, 04:45
I thought silver wand gave you more spells, but seer staff lets you choose the specific spells?

I think I like the silver wand idea better for a level 2. I mean, all of the Lore of Life spells (My lore of preference if I'm only gonna run 1 wizard) are useful, and any that are less so, you can just substitute in the signature spell. Honestly, that's what I do to get rid of Dwellers if I roll it. In a small game, that is just too devastating, and there are plenty of other useful spells to use. So with the silver wand, you have a good chance of getting the spells you want.

Trains_Get_Robbed
20-10-2010, 05:49
^^^
Definitely look into D.Ps. I never take champions ever on the units. Its preference I guess, but why take a champ when he costs a whole another D.P? I really don't care about challenging and the musician is useless, if I'm fleeing its because they are either deployed poorly and don't have any viable targets, or did one of many purposes and hit a block and softened them up. I normally run mine in: 6 D.PS, S.B and Ellyrion Banner.

I find that unit is awesome, it had enough attacks that even if the unit takes a couple wounds 7 wounds a turn -3 A.S will still put a hurt on anything armored and hard to can open when it comes in to contact with it. The banner essentially allows them to be a interdcitor in the forest and other terrain guarding perhaps an essentially piece of the board, all the while gaining a -1 to hit modifier. Not to mention that if the enemy is dumb enough to come after them in the forest, stubborn units don't get ranks in forests and thus, will be broken by the D.P's even by a frontal charge.

In small point games I find it unecessary to field a BsB (1,500 and under) as my general is normally in the thick of the action, anchoring my lines. Also worth mentioning that the LD banner on a unit of special like S.M or W.L can go a long way without a BsB just boosts great LD even higher.

Bolt Throwers used to be overcosted by a little, however no they are by alot. Nonetheless, H.E don't really have tons of Artillery, it comes in RBT form, and again as a result the RBT shouldn't be overlooked. I often find myself taking them in pairs, and with a unit of LSG (flame banner) in a game size of 1,500 for example with a choice of Sp. Troop, Lvl 2 Mage Silver Wand and Reaver Bow, Shadow, Death or H.E (Life isn't worth it unless one knows +4 spells or more), Tiranioc Chariot, 6 D.P's with Ellyrion Banner, my Charcter Killer White Sword General and or perhaps another unit or Eagle depending where I shave points and what I have left.

Its really helpful to follow up on Gribbleys with the RBT shots and Reaver Bow, as the target unit of 15-20 S3 flamming and 3 S5 flamming, will wound anything Regen, and also in a building while the RBTs will provide the after-punch whether that be multi-shot or tree trunk.

scarvet
20-10-2010, 06:33
I thought flaming banner doesn't work on magical weapons.....

BB: I found Regrowth pretty bad without Vines...and I almost exclusively use High magic in small games since it cover about everything you need.

Desert Rain
20-10-2010, 16:06
In small games such as 1250 you can get away without a BSB, in 1500 I'd take one though. Dragon Princes are fine in units of 5 without any upgrades, I use a unit like that in every game I play and they've never let me down.
For magic I'd recommend the Silver Wand on a L.2 with Lore of Shadows since you will be guaranteed to roll up at least 2 good spells. Take the Banner of Sorcery for some extra power as well.

Pulstar
20-10-2010, 16:23
The more I think about it, a level 2 with the Seerstaff and High magic maybe the best way to go for a second caster in an army list.

Shield of Saphrey is strong, and either the magic missle (vs smaller elite type armies) or flames (vs hordey type armies) are unit killers.

Here is a question, if you cast drain magic, does it cause the value need to dispel flames to go by 3?

Kiras of the flame
21-10-2010, 02:02
idk I take a lv2 mage with the Lore of shadow with the silver wand and the Ring of fury...

it gives him a free punch in battle as well as great debuffs...

BBWags
21-10-2010, 02:09
What do you use to get the banner of sorcery? If you put it on your BSB, then your BSB is very vulnerable because he lacks magical armor . . . but you're not allowed to take that expensive of a banner in a core rank and file unit. But do you really want your wizard in an elite unit that is going to be charging straight at the enemy?

*edit* Wait, my bad. The wizard doesn't actually need to be WITH the banner, right? So it could be in a unit of Phoenix Gaurd or White Lions and your wizard safely tucked into a unit of LSG back in your deployment zone and all is happy, yes?

Also, since I"m at it - how big model count-wise is the average 2k point High Elf army. Yes, of course, everything is always going to depend on the desires of the player, but it seems like I could take my basic 1250 point list and make it 1500 points almost without trying. Upgrade the mage to an archmage level 4 with some nifty magical stuff and you already have a huge point boost.

Perhaps the question is best phrased as "how many core troop choices are common at 2k or even 3k points levels? My 1250 point list currently has 20 LSG and 40 spearmen in two individual blocks of 20. It seems like I could reach 2k points quite easily by adding a second eagle, two RBTs, a single unit of Phoenix Guard and the rest of the points on upgrades and such... Am I tracking right, here?

Trains_Get_Robbed
21-10-2010, 04:42
Anyone else having a problem running a Transformation of Kadon Mage, and the mage just doesn't reach the casting value, or doesn't get irresistible and fails? I have played 5 games do far with it, and will try one more this friday, but I am about ready to throw in the towel on it (I have gotten it off once).

Tarian
21-10-2010, 04:47
I don't run Lore of Beasts, been using Shadow and Life (Running 2 Archmages) that has been doing well for me @3k.

Kiras of the flame
21-10-2010, 07:00
Transformation is a bleh... we already have a dragon...

also the other versions of the spell are ok I guess but we're basically asking our mages to be challenged ASAP by some killer of beasts...

Desert Rain
21-10-2010, 09:39
*edit* Wait, my bad. The wizard doesn't actually need to be WITH the banner, right? So it could be in a unit of Phoenix Gaurd or White Lions and your wizard safely tucked into a unit of LSG back in your deployment zone and all is happy, yes?
That is correct. No need to have them in the same unit unless you want them to.


Also, since I"m at it - how big model count-wise is the average 2k point High Elf army. Yes, of course, everything is always going to depend on the desires of the player, but it seems like I could take my basic 1250 point list and make it 1500 points almost without trying. Upgrade the mage to an archmage level 4 with some nifty magical stuff and you already have a huge point boost.My 2000 points army has just below 90 models in it. The situation that you describes is fairly common, once you start adding lord choices the total points of the army increases dramatically.


Perhaps the question is best phrased as "how many core troop choices are common at 2k or even 3k points levels? My 1250 point list currently has 20 LSG and 40 spearmen in two individual blocks of 20. It seems like I could reach 2k points quite easily by adding a second eagle, two RBTs, a single unit of Phoenix Guard and the rest of the points on upgrades and such... Am I tracking right, here?
If you have 40 spears and 20 LSG in a 1250 pts army you have an extreme amount of core. Generally with our army we try to minimize the amount of core we take. Ideally you take troops worth as close to 25% of the army as possible. The reason for this is that our core basically are crap compared to our elites. Not that our core aren't good, it is just that our elites are so much better for their points cost.

Hashulaman
21-10-2010, 10:11
I never play below 2k if I can help it, our stuff is expensive as it is. High magic is a good all around lore, little bit of everthing in one lore, plus its cheap. Though the other lores are good as well. Id take a mix, at least a High Magic using mage and the others(if you take any) use whatever lore you feeling inclined to. Shadow seems a good choice, Enfeebling Foe(I think thats the one that lowers toughness) and Flames of the Phoenix can be rather nasty.




By the way I dont think this was answered, WOuld taking a Prince on a Steed in a group of Dradon Princes be a good idea? I don't think taking a dragon is worth the points, and if it is a decent idea what gear do I give him? Braces and Dragon armor seem a good choice, the rest I haven't figured out yet.

Tarian
21-10-2010, 11:18
My 2k has just over 70 models in it, and a Prince in Dragon Princes is quite nice, I give mine the Helm of Fortune, Talisman of Saphery, then usually either a lance, the Star Lance, or the Ogre Blade.

ZoomDog
21-10-2010, 13:14
or the Ogre Blade.

Is that really worth it? You can get the same strength bonus with a great weapon for 28 points less (worth the loss of a shield IMO).

Kiras of the flame
21-10-2010, 15:22
Is that really worth it? You can get the same strength bonus with a great weapon for 28 points less (worth the loss of a shield IMO).

the Ogre Blade is good if you're on a Barded steed as you can have a shield and something like the helm of fortune and talisman of preservation...

in total you get a +1 Armor save that can be rerolled with a +4 ward save along with 10 spare points for something like the talisman of Loec or whatever...

that's good in my book

wilsongrahams
21-10-2010, 16:23
Personally I'd keep my prince out of the dragon princes and use a noble there instead - the only reason is because a unit of dragon princes will be small, and they themselves cannot take the weight of firepower they will attract, nor a long protracted combat, thus likely leaving your prince on his own, where he will get slaughtered. Unless you have plans to make this unit very large and expensive, or to use with other support such as other cavalry or chariots, then you may be risking your general a little too much for my tastes.

If you feel luck is on your side, then go for it and you'll have a very powerful unit. I just play safe with my general usually.

As for armour etc on a mounted noble or prince, if the mount has barding which it should have, you only need basic heavy armour and a shield to get your maximum allowed save, so if using a great weapon and therefore no shield you will only want an item that can be combined with other equipmentr, of which there are plenty in the armies book. Something like the helm of fortune is good here as it also allows a reroll. I just think that keeping the cost low to keep points available for other wargear is the better option when the result is the same. Of course you could get the cheaper option and go for armour of caledor which is ridiculously low cost if you ask me, but this is a waste on a mounted model as you lose the bonus there, and I'd give AoC to a model on foot instead where the extra save bonuses are harder to get.

My point here is based on having more than one model that is requiring decent armour, and so it's getting all of them a decent save and rerolls etc whilst using the natural advantages a mounted model will have - where those points saved on magical items are best used on something like the star lance.

I usually give my prince, whom is on foot, great weapon, armour of caledor, vambraces of defence and amulet of light. He fights with a large unit of swordmasters.

My BSB Noble then takes basic heavy armour and shield with a magic banner. He will fight with probably Phoenix Guard or Spearmen as I see fit.

My mounted Noble that fights with Dragon Princes, takes Barded Steed, Dragon Armour and basic shield. He then takes Star Lance and Talisman of Loec or Gem of courage.

If I decide to take extra nobles or another Prince on any of the monsters (and not getting a bonus to armour save therefore) I still have Temakador's Gauntlets, Guardian Phoenix or Helm of Fortune to use to still give decent protection. One unkillable character doesn't win you the game, but saving as many as possible for as long as possible will give you an advantage. I play larger games so have more characters than many smaller armies will have.

Treadhead_1st
21-10-2010, 16:37
++EDIT++

Last post was a little rambling, I've edited it to make everything flow a bit better

++++

I'm really getting interested in Fantasy again, mostly because of the direction my degree is taking (yay for battlefield archaeology modules). However I haven't played since 7th Edition, and then quite early on, so I am struggling with establishing what is going to be best for the force.

I've always wanted to do a classical-themed High Elf force (I like the models and they suit phalanx-style troops very well). Whether I go Macedonian (circa Alexander the Great), Aeneid-themed (so Homeric combat) or Roman (post-Marian reforms) is something I haven't decided yet, but for now I am working on the "Alexander" idea, as it seems a little more balanced - especially as I am expecting to play at the 2000 point margin, not 2250 or 2500 (sadly - I wouldn't have any issues were that the case).

However I am having a lot of trouble getting the army off the ground. It strikes me that in order to have a range of characters available to make the force effective (a magic caster, a combat leader/general, a BSB) you suddenly start losing out on actual models for the rest of the army because of the sheer cost of the trio. This brings me to my first bout of questions:

1) Is a BSB an absolute necessity in this edition? I know they are greatly improved in 8th Edition, but I am having trouble finding the points to squeeze this fella into the force, particularly as I often either don't have the points for more than a magic-caster and general, and also because I find myself debating his worth with that of an additional Level 1 mage with the new magic rules (and the benefits that a variety of Lores bring to the High Elf force - for example the Lore of Life and the Lore of Shadow are both extremely helpful). Of course I am looking at an infantry-heavy force, so the BSB does seem to fit in, but it's whether the re-rolls to the already-high Elven leadership outweigh the buffs from another caster, or outweigh the additional 130pts-or-so of models that can be fielded instead of either option.

2) Does the BSB have to be in the front-line? This is something that I always see, and I often see the BSB get challenged, then die. Do you think that having a BSB and keeping him in a modest-sized (like 5-11) unit of Sword Masters could be a good idea - it hides behind other combat blocks, so cannot be easily shot at (and has a small footprint to avoid stone throwers), and the benefits still get passed on to the large blocks in front of this unit. I don't think a huge "bunker" is needed in this case, as anything should be weakened by ploughing through a whole Spearman regiment that the Swordmasters can finish it off before it can strike. It is a little costly, and I do not think I can fit it into my army at the current points-level, but do you think it is a good idea in general?

3) Do you think that a White Lion champion can be a "BSB stand-in" if given the Dragonhorn (it may not help with every Ld test, but for those times when when one unit panics and causes the whole line to flee, it can instantly rally everyone, and thanks to Musicians it can reform to get back into the fight extremely quickly)?

4) I want to field a Mage on a Chariot. I know it's not hugely effective, but I really like the model I have built, and it should be good support for the Spearmen I wish to include in the army. Would taking a Level 2 suffice (which is expensive at 260 points, since I want the Ring of Fury too), leaving me the points for a mounted Prince; or should I opt for an Archmage (extremely expensive but very powerful) and go with the cheaper combat-character? I know this is an age-old question, but can 2 levels of magic cut it in the modern game?

So as we can see there are problems at the top. This has a large knock-on effect for the rest of the army, as it heavily affects the amount of points available for troops. I think the issue is that I want to be relatively points-light on characters, but it seems that magic and a BSB are nigh-vital, and I want my mounted General too.

The core gives me trouble too. I know that I want to take a good number of Spearmen, as after all it gives the look of a traditional phalanx, but the unit-size is a massive conundrum for me. It seems to be that I can opt for fewer bigger blocks (which allow them to take damage before losing the Stubborn/Attacks/Ranks benefits); or more smaller blocks which give me an advantage in manoeuvring and attempting to attack the enemy in the front and the flank at the same time.

5) Should you aim for Stubborn units in this edition, or does the high-cost of Spearmen mean that it is better to opt for units which offer the most flexibility and movement within the game? Would 2x30-man units be better than 3x20-man units on these grounds?

Either way, I am going to support the Spearmen with a healthy block of White Lions, to give the formation some real teeth. Having 4 blocks of 20 models (15 in the case of the Lions) would be an impressive sight and should give most opponents headaches from the sheer number of attacks, re-rolls to hit and inability to flank the unit and deny rank-bonuses (as all are mutually supported/covered by the unit either side of them).

Alexander was famous for his use of cavalry to break an infantry line. In antiquity he was the first (recorded) man to do so. Silver Helms seem extremely appropriate for this (as the Companion Cavalry did not carry shields), particularly since the new rules mean that you need a unit of at least 10 cavalry (although preferably more) to break enemy ranks. Sticking a mounted Noble/Prince in the unit should give it real oomph.

However I am concerned as to how to support such a formation. Do you think that more Silver Helms are a good idea? 2 units of 10 each should give the opponent nightmares, particularly with an attached character, as although the opponent only needs to cause 1 casualty-per-unit to prevent them denying ranks, 2 units will force them to split fire and even if they can't break ranks, a combo-charge of the units should be devastating. But this is incredibly expensive. A large cavalry flank-attack will look extremely impressive, and that is what counts.

6) A large Cavalry unit is useful, but what is the best support? Another large unit of the same, or should I look at 2 units of 5 Reavers (who are much cheaper) that could be deployed in front of, and to the side of, the Silver Helms, thus preventing the enemy from getting Line-of-Sight to the unit I want to protect?

I think that all armies should have some shooting capacity - be it to thin out ranks before combat is joined by the main fighting units, or to remove enemy supporting elements (or even for counter-battery fire). With this in mind, I am looking at Archers and Repeater Bolt Throwers to help anchor the centre of my line. With so many combat threats (Spears, Lions, Cavalry) the enemy shouldn't press them too hard, and 10 Archers and 2 RBTs (or even 20 Archers and 1 RBT) should put out a decent hail of firepower, especially if they target the same enemy unit - and it gives me something to take on Monsters that may be running rampant. Expensive, and very hard to squeeze in given everything else that I want in my army, but I might just be able to do it with a bit of creative list-juggling.

Speaking of War Machines, it appears that these are the most threatening units to a High Elf army - particularly Stone Throwers. It may be that with my flanking Cavalry (Helms, or Helms and Reavers) and my own ranged units for counter-battery fire, I have my bases covered, but it is still a concern.

7) What is the best way to take out enemy artillery? Particularly since Shadow Warriors seem to be a little lackluster with the new Skirmisher rules?

I thank you for taking the time to read through this post, and hopefully there are people out there who can help a (relative) noob like myself out - I have some experience with High Elves, but not 8th Edition, where things are rather different.