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Draconian77
21-10-2010, 17:15
Now, I don't actually play High Elves so take everything I say with a grain of salt, but I'm intrigued by the proposed theme. Here on some of my thoughts;

If you want a Chariot Mounted mage, then I would be tempted to run a Level 3/4 Life Mage. (You did mention Shadow, but Life can repair the Chariot which could prove to be very helpful indeed!)

As for equipment, well, if you want the Ring of Fury that leaves you with 60pts to spend on other stuff. I would recommend the Rune of Preservation for a 4+ Ward save and the Jewel of Dusk for +1PD. You can use that extra dice to cast the bound spell.

As for Alexander, I would be tempted to go with a mounted Noble. The common build includes Bsb, Guardian Phoenix and Helm of Fortune for a 1+ re-rollable armour save and a 5+ Ward.

Those two characters set you back 633pts but give you pretty much everything that you want/need.

As for the rest of the force, Spearmen in 8x4 will represent the phalanx nicely. Two units of 32 with Full Command set you back 626pts.

When it comes to cavalry, most players prefer Dragon Princes over Silver Helms but if you want shield-less Silver Helms then shield-less Silver Helms I will look at. 14 of them with Full Command come in at 334pts and can be deployed either 5x3 (with Alexander) or 7x2 with a guy left over (again, with Alexander himself).

Adding that all up...1593pts

So, you also want Archers, Bolt Throwers and an Eagle?

10 Archers, 2 Bolt Throwers and an Eagle set you back 360pts.

Total comes out to 1953pts. So, you have a few options there. Drop a Spearman and add an Eagle or perhaps bite the bullet and give the Silver Helms Shields...

Personally, I would drop the Archers and 2 Spearmen to add 2 Tiranoc Chariots. He did have a lot of Chariots in his forces didn't he?

Anyway, I hope that was helpful.

The list would look something like this;


-Archmage(Life), Lv4, Tiranoc Chariot, Ring of Fury, Rune of Preservation, Jewel of Dusk.

-Noble, Bsb, Barded Steed, Lance, Dragon Armour, Shield, Helm of Fortune, Guardian Phoenix.

-31 Spearmen, FC

-31 Spearmen, FC

-Tiranoc Chariot

-Tiranoc Chariot

-14 Silver Helms, FC

-2 Eagle Bolt Throwers

-Great Eagle

Total = 1995

Treadhead_1st
21-10-2010, 18:57
If you want a Chariot Mounted mage, then I would be tempted to run a Level 3/4 Life Mage. (You did mention Shadow, but Life can repair the Chariot which could prove to be very helpful indeed!)

As for equipment, well, if you want the Ring of Fury that leaves you with 60pts to spend on other stuff. I would recommend the Rune of Preservation for a 4+ Ward save and the Jewel of Dusk for +1PD. You can use that extra dice to cast the bound spell.

Hm, Life would be quite handy, and it would mean I can regenerate my Spearmen as they take damage. I just thought the idea of Shadow (Str8 Spearmen, striking in so many ranks? FAQ'd to modify armour saves? Hell yeah). That's why I am considering, though it would be a pain to fit, a Level 1/2 with Seerstaff, just to get that spell.



As for Alexander, I would be tempted to go with a mounted Noble. The common build includes Bsb, Guardian Phoenix and Helm of Fortune for a 1+ re-rollable armour save and a 5+ Ward.

Those two characters set you back 633pts but give you pretty much everything that you want/need.


That could work well - though I am unsure on the BSB part, especially as he's likely to be away from the main battleline if I'm trying to flank with the Cavalry. Darn it, Elf characters are too expensive (I started playing at the end of 6th with Empire).

That's why I'm questioning the need for a BSB - I could take a Lvl 3, Noble on Steed, Lvl 1 for about the same cost as the Lvl4/BSB-Noble, but I lose out on the BSB benefits (roughly 640 vs 633).



As for the rest of the force, Spearmen in 8x4 will represent the phalanx nicely. Two units of 32 with Full Command set you back 626pts.


That does sound nice, though I am unsure if 2 units, especially without something strong for support like Lions, are going to be enough. Since the Spearmen are not stubborn anyway, do you think that slightly smaller units could work - I dunno, 24 in 8x3 or something, or 20 as 5x4, to shave points/add a 3rd unit?

Or should the sheer quantity of Spearmen mean I can get away without using the Lions (generally the plan is to advance & hold the enemy with Infantry, whilst large Cavalry wing flanks the enemy force, and Magic/Ranged units keep the enemy busy whist doing so).



When it comes to cavalry, most players prefer Dragon Princes over Silver Helms but if you want shield-less Silver Helms then shield-less Silver Helms I will look at. 14 of them with Full Command come in at 334pts and can be deployed either 5x3 (with Alexander) or 7x2 with a guy left over (again, with Alexander himself).


14 does sound extremely potent. I am just concerned at the lack of support/screening, particularly with the new rules for War Machines. I will certainly mull that over. Will they need Full Command (I can see the Musician/Banner being useful, but not sure on the Champion, it's a lot of points for an extra attack and the ability to soak challenges)?



Personally, I would drop the Archers and 2 Spearmen to add 2 Tiranoc Chariots. He did have a lot of Chariots in his forces didn't he?


Not really - the Greeks didn't tend to use chariots outside of the "Homeric combat" (i.e. pre-hoplite) age of warfare, and even then Homer couldn't work out how they were used. More as battle-taxis for the rich/important and archer-platforms (and there's no evidence of chariots with blades on the wheels, implying they didn't crash into infantry formations).

I may use Reavers instead, to shield the Silver Helms, if you think that's a good idea? 14 Helms + 10 Reavers (2 units of 5, one to the fore and one to the flank, to block LOS of cannon/handgunners etc) could hit extremely hard.



Anyway, I hope that was helpful.


It was extremely helpful, gave me a few ideas. Thank you very much - though I am still stuck re: unit sizes, but that's to be expected really given that a whole variety of combinations can work for our troops. Thanks for a hoard of ideas.

Draconian77
22-10-2010, 02:13
While Mindrazor is an excellent spell, I wouldn't plan an army around it. I feel that the Life/Chariot could be very handy and to be honest, Life is just a great all-round Lore.

I wouldn't worry about the Bsb myself. You will be playing with a fairly aggressive army, meaning that the unit on the outer edge of your infantry line + the cavalry itself should benefit from the re-rolls. That's 2 out of the 3/4 fighting blocks that the army will likely contain straight from the get go. Obviously, as the cavalry charge and draw closer to the infantry battlelines the re-roll will extend to more units. I actually have quite a bit of experience when it comes to this sort of thing as my Druchii Bsb often goes to battle leading a hefty unit of 9 Cold One Knights. Losing full coverage for 1-2 turns hasn't ever been a problem.

I can see your point about the Spearmen though, they might need a bit of heavy-hitting support. I'll fiddle around with the list and see if I can squeeze in some White Lions.

There are a couple of things to consider when we discuss screening;

: Does the unit being screened really require screening?
: Is the screening unit cheap enough (relative to the screened unit) to be thrown away on the altar of sacrifice.
: Available support and target saturation.

As for the first one, does a unit of 21pts-per-model medium cavalry require screening? Possibly. It can come down to both what you are facing and how you use them. If you plan to use them on the flank I would not be overly concerned. You may find yourself in range of 1-2 missile units but you should never have to face an entire armies worth of shooting. That's the plus, as for the negative, well, you do have to make sure that Cannons and Bolt Throwers don't hit your unit in the flank but honestly, this is something that all new players pick up after a few games without difficulty. If you are *really* worried about shooting look to giving them shields but converting the "shields" to look like something else. Or, if your gaming group is ok with it, simply say that they have shields but don't model them. Really, that unit will come down to playtesting and player preference.

(As for the Silver Helms unit champion, I would keep him, but again, that's something that most players decide after playtesting.)

As for the second point, well, Reavers are just too expensive to justify being used as a screen for Silver Helms. For the same price as the 5 Reavers you can get 4 Silver Helms? Clearly, 4x T3 3+ save models will add more survivability to the unit than a screen of 5x T3 5+ save models.

When it comes down to support, you will either have Shadow magic or Life magic available to you. Shadow magic can reduce enemy BS making it harder to hit the Silver Helms and Life magic boasts both Flesh to Stone and Regrowth which can make for some really resilient cavalry. Again, I would slightly favour Life here.

Ok, I did some tinkering and came up with this draft;


-Lv4 Archmage(Life) on Tiranoc Chariot, Ring of Fury, Rune of Preservation, Jewel of Dusk = 445

-Noble Bsb, Barded Steed, Dragon Armour, Shield, Lance, Helm of Fortune, Guardian Phoenix = 188

-24 Spearmen, FC = 241 (6x4-You do fight with 4 ranks after all. :))

-24 Spearmen, FC = 241 (6x4)

-10 Archers = 110 (You need these guys instead of a Bolt Thrower for the 25% Core although you did say that you wanted Archers so that actually works out really well doesn't it?)

-14 White Lions, FC = 240 (7x2)

-14 Silver Helms, FC, Banner of Eternal Flame = 344 (5x3 or 7x2 - Flame for hunting Trolls, Hydras and Hellpit Abominations. Fire solves many, many problems...)

-1 Eagle Bolt Thrower = 100

-1 Great Eagle = 50

Total = 1959


That leaves you with 41pts to spare. So, again, we are left with a few options which I'll list below for the sake of ease;

- Drop 1 Spearman, add 1 Great Eagle.
-Drop 1 Spearman and the Great Eagle, add 1 Bolt Thrower.
-Drop 1 Spearman, add the Banner of Sorcery to the White Lions.
-Add Shields to the Silver Helms and give the White Lions a magic banner. (The Standard of Discipline or the Gleaming Pennant are both good choices.)
-Nope, out of ideas...:D

Hmm, that post got a little out of control. Well, apologies for the essay and once again I hope that some of that was helpful.

Kiras of the flame
23-10-2010, 06:47
Impo I'm not a big fan of having a mage as my general... this might be because whenever I think of a general, I imagine a powerful figure who is ready to lead his men by example...

also why a chariot? an elven steed can carry him far easier and makes him less of a bigger target... also most people expect the chariot to ram people...

Hashulaman
23-10-2010, 06:50
I really want to buys the new plastic High Elf, I have plastic Swordmaster already and looking into White Lions and Phoenix Guard Definatly. Question is how would I use them in 8th? I really I'd rather not have to read through 64 pages in the middle of the night to find an answer, thank you.

Tarian
23-10-2010, 07:13
Lions are creature/tough unit killers, Swordmasters are horde/unit killers, and Phoenix Guard are bunkers. I field mine in blocks of 14-20, and let them loose on whatever target they're supposed to be hitting.

Kiras of the flame
23-10-2010, 09:06
Lions are creature/tough unit killers, Swordmasters are horde/unit killers, and Phoenix Guard are bunkers. I field mine in blocks of 14-20, and let them loose on whatever target they're supposed to be hitting.

remember kids... dress to impress

theorox
23-10-2010, 09:24
What advice would you guys give to a Warrior of Chaos player who plays vs High Elf?

I play High Elf myself vs a Chaos guy and I just destroy him every game. So much shooting(3 bolt throwers, 20 archers, 30 LSG), and his only threat vs me is his unit of 12 chaos knights that I can control with my block of 20 phoenix guards and my 10 sword masters.

Really it feels like I'm getting all the good stuff and he gets nothing, it's starting to get boring just winning with ease every game >< Halp!

Should he switch race? Or what is a good tactic for chaos warriors?

What's the problem? Write a new list. :wtf:

Theo

b4z
23-10-2010, 09:25
Can anyone help me...

I want to create a Prince and/or Noble configuration that is able to deal with a Vampire Lord [in a big block of skeleton warriors] in one round...

This is at 1500 pts level... So 375 pts to play with on Lords/Heroes...

That Vampire Lord is the crux of an opponent's army and i want to see what happens to his battle plan if i am able to take it out early...

Desert Rain
23-10-2010, 09:45
White Sword and Talisman of Loec gives you a good chance of killing blow-ing him.

Red_Lep
23-10-2010, 16:10
What is everyones opinion on our ranged units? My Chracian list(1500pts) looks promising for combat but with no magic or shooting, I'm starting to be concerned with its performance. Since I have both Korhil and a BSB, I don't have the points for a Mage. I can however include Archers, LSG, Shadow Warriors, and RBTs. What is the common thought on these units as I have rarely used them?

My posted list if you are interested: http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=280340

Tarian
23-10-2010, 16:15
Archers are over costed, Shadow warriors even more, LSG are solid core, but pricey, and RBTs are nice, but expensive (Bit of a theme here, I guess.)

Only shooting I take is LSG, RBTs, and magic.

Kiras of the flame
23-10-2010, 20:53
meh I take archers... the LSG are good... but the archers are better for range... also it's a chore reforming them everytime so I can get the most out of my shooting and get them ready to be attacked...

wilsongrahams
23-10-2010, 22:07
meh I take archers... the LSG are good... but the archers are better for range... also it's a chore reforming them everytime so I can get the most out of my shooting and get them ready to be attacked...

Chore? Every time? You only need to reform them the once the turn before you expect them to be charged! If you're lucky you'll still be able to shoot away too.

Also 6" extra range isn't that much of a bonus compared to armour and a spear for only 1 pt extra, and 2pts with shields - the armour and shields are enough to earn back those extra points from casualties you haven't sustained from shooting, and the extra rank in combat when you are charged will help you survive rather than getting wiped out. Personally, if you want a small unit, go for LSG. If you want large numbers, go for archers. Just my tip and probably why everyone will advocate one or the other depending upon how they use them.

Either type of unit are great with a bolt thrower backing them up but never spend more on bolt throwers than the rest of your raned firepower added together - this is just something I have found helps keep the power to cost ratio right in ranged power in my armies of any size.

Magic artillery is just too unpredictable as you may not ever get a spell off, so again don't rely on it. For the same cost as a mage 10 archers will cause more damage over the course of a game. Mage's are best used as extra bonuses or to support other troops rather than as the ranged part of your army.

Of course, if you're really brave, forget the ranged attacks and spam the spearmen whom can absorb enough damage to make up the losses from not having weakened the enemy first.

Kiras of the flame
25-10-2010, 06:15
I like massed arrow fire.... MY ARROWS WILL BLOCK OUT THE SUN!!!!

Treadhead_1st
25-10-2010, 15:10
Ok, I've been struggling to get my army to work (though many thanks for the ideas, Draconian77).

I am coming around to the idea of using a block or two of 32 Spearmen - I figure that they can be either 8x4 for offensive purposes, or reform into 5x6 for defensive purposes (and have their Stubborn rule despite taking 12 casualties).

This is of course hideously expensive at 616 points, but I think it will look incredibly impressive on the table-top.

But how should I support this pair of units? I was thinking a unit of White Lions to help secure one flank, but they're 255 points for just 15, leaving me 1127 points for characters (one being the expensive mage-in-a-chariot), archers/RBT, a massive block of cavalry, perhaps some Great Eagles and Shadow Warriors...points start to get extremely tight.

I was wondering if the "MSU" strategy could still work - use 10-man units of Lions to support each flank (hiding behind the "wings" of the 8x4 block in a narrow file, before reforming to 5x2 as the block reforms into 5x6, giving me combat-ready units that have been shielded from enemy fire). Slightly more expensive, but allows me to hit either side at once.

Or alternatively, should I use slightly smaller blocks of speamen, but a larger block of White Lions, using the Lions to hold the centre whilst the Spearmen flank the enemy - could that work too, or do Spearmen just not have the punch to do so? I know Phoenix Guard could also work in this role, but I am concerned at the lack of strength they have, and I think to support large numbers of Spears I need a unit that can really dish-out punishment.

Any ideas on how to support a large number of spearmen?

DwD
25-10-2010, 21:41
Im a old player trying to make a small comeback. I was wondering if they changed the Bolt Thrower? In the 8th rule book it states I can only fire 1 big shot and in the High Elf book I can shoot a volley? Did they remove the Volley for 8th? Or can I still choose between shooting a volley or a big shot?

Treadhead_1st
25-10-2010, 22:08
Im a old player trying to make a small comeback. I was wondering if they changed the Bolt Thrower? In the 8th rule book it states I can only fire 1 big shot and in the High Elf book I can shoot a volley? Did they remove the Volley for 8th? Or can I still choose between shooting a volley or a big shot?

You can fire both. If you read the army book carefully (in the bolt thrower "bestiary") it mentions that you can fire a single-shot like a bolt thrower, and to reference the main rule book, OR you can fire the volley.

TL;DR: You can still choose.

Kiras of the flame
26-10-2010, 01:36
two hordes???? that's a bit risky if you ask me...

If we're doing massed everything I say use archers... they're cheaper than the LSG and has a somewhat farther reach...

and then a bolt thrower to top it all off...

Tarian
26-10-2010, 03:21
Problem with archers is they can't fight very well though, so if anything does get to them, GG.

Kiras of the flame
26-10-2010, 05:04
well the giant spearman horde would seem more of a problem.... I'd take it

Draconian77
26-10-2010, 06:24
Or alternatively, should I use slightly smaller blocks of speamen, but a larger block of White Lions, using the Lions to hold the centre whilst the Spearmen flank the enemy - could that work too, or do Spearmen just not have the punch to do so? I know Phoenix Guard could also work in this role, but I am concerned at the lack of strength they have, and I think to support large numbers of Spears I need a unit that can really dish-out punishment.

I agree, if you are going for S3 blocks then White Lions are the support unit of choice. I would also suggest going with smaller Spearmen blocks. You seem to be focusing on the "Stubborn" aspect of 32-model units quite a bit but to be honest, there are generally only two situations in which a High Elf Spearmen block will find itself in...

The first; it comes up against other "standard" infantry. (1 attack at Ws3-4 and S3-4) Generally speaking the Spearmen will win these fights each turn. They generate more attacks, hit first and re-roll failed to hit rolls. It will be your opponent taking the break tests, not you. They may be Steadfast for a turn or two but in the end they will break.

The second; it comes up against a "grinder" unit such as Khornate Chaos Warriors, Trolls or perhaps a large monster such as a Hydra. In this case you will be the one losing the combats each turn. The thing is, you will be losing all of these fights to sheer casualties, not to any form of Static Combat Resolution.
While an extra couple of guys might allow the unit to stick around for a round longer, in general, you don't ever want your units to be fighting something which they are not equipped to handle. That's not to say that large units are bad but if at the end of the day they are destroyed because you couldn't afford support units then something isn't right.

As for a MSU approach, I don't recommend it. A combination of easy charge redirection, reforms after combat, steadfast and return attacks make it a very difficult strategy to execute in this edition. I doubt you will find players willing to charge into the Spearmen blocks knowing that there are White Lions on the wings. Most likely, they will just attack you from both flanks(any offensive army) and/or form a defensive formation and shoot you(any defensive army). However, if you have a lot of shooting yourself and they lack ranged firepower, you may be able to force them to engage you.

The closest that I can get with the blocks of Spearmen, Lions, Cavalry, etc at 2000pts is the list which I posted earlier. Now, you could amalgamate the Archers and a Spearmen block into a horde of Lothern Sea Guard (example 1) or perhaps you could cut the Archers and Silver Helms for slightly larger Spearmen blocks and two blocks of Lions?

Have you settled on want you absolutely don't want to leave out and what could potentially be sacrificed from a competitive standpoint?

Ex1:

-Lv4 Archmage(Life) on Tiranoc Chariot, Ring of Fury, Rune of Preservation, Jewel of Dusk = 445

-Noble Bsb, Barded Steed, Dragon Armour, Shield, Lance, Helm of Fortune, Guardian Phoenix = 188

-30 Lothern Seaguard, FC, Banner of Eternal Flame = 395 (I don't know if these suit your theme though...and are they really better than 24 Spearmen, 10 Archers and another Great Eagle? Hard to tell.)

-24 Spearmen, FC = 241

-14 White Lions, FC, Gleaming Pennant = 245

-14 Silver Helms, FC = 334

-1 Eagle Bolt Thrower = 100

-1 Great Eagle = 50

Total = 1998


Ex2:

-Lv4 Archmage(Life) on Tiranoc Chariot, Ring of Fury, Rune of Preservation, Jewel of Dusk = 445

-Noble Bsb, Barded Steed, Dragon Armour, Shield, Lance, Helm of Fortune, Guardian Phoenix = 188

-30 Spearmen, FC = 295

-30 Spearmen, FC = 295

-18 White Lions, FC, Banner of Eternal Flame = 310

-18 White Lions, FC, Gleaming Pennant = 305

-1 Eagle Bolt Thrower = 100

-1 Great Eagle = 50

Total = 1998

Pulstar
26-10-2010, 14:41
I was looking at the army book last night, and for the life of me I couldn't come up with a reason to ever take Silver helms in the current edition.

Their cost isn't really isn't "bad" or out of line for what they can do, it's just that the Dragon Princes "do it better" in the same slot of the army book. (And with an extra attack and the ability to take a magic banner)

What if we could make it so that the first unit of Silver Helms taken counted as a core unit?

This would make the useful again. It would give some variety to our lackluster core choices. It would let you give a unit of Silver Helms a cheap magic banner (at the cost of not giving one to the other core units).

It would open up some problems though. A unit of 20 SH (w/ shields) with Full command comes in at 500 points. This would let you field a 2K "all Cav" army if you wanted to. I'm not sure this fits with the way 8th works.

Any thoughts?

DwD
26-10-2010, 14:45
How do you guys protect for example Teclis against Hellcannons/Stonethrowers?

It seems so easy to get a direct hit and then he is instantly dead. I guess only way is to stick him in a horde unit and then make a Look Out Sir! Call? Too bad then 15 LSG will die and then the next turn he will get a new direct hit and you can't do **** about it...

ColShaw
26-10-2010, 15:33
What I've heard is good is to bunker him with Phoenix Guard (who are pretty hard to kill with artillery).

Of course, if you're using Teclis in the first place, I don't think you've got much right to complain about how easy-to-kill he is. He's probably the single most hated guy in 8th Edition...

DwD
26-10-2010, 16:06
Well it doesn't really matter what Lord/Character I use? It's still as big of a chance for a Hellcannon to kill it in 1 or 2 hits...

I'm just asking for ways to protect a character vs a Hellcannon

edit: unless I take a dragon -_-

ColShaw
26-10-2010, 18:50
As I said. Phoenix Guard. They're as safe as anything. The only other thing you can do is grab an item with a decent ward save. Anyway, the Chaos guy can't hit EVERY time he rolls the scatter dice...

Treadhead_1st
26-10-2010, 19:55
Their cost isn't really isn't "bad" or out of line for what they can do, it's just that the Dragon Princes "do it better" in the same slot of the army book. (And with an extra attack and the ability to take a magic banner)


The reason I am using them instead, aside from avoiding shields for thematic reasons, is that I want a large block for flank-attacks (I know it's not as potent as it was previously, but it still helps in a combined combat - particularly since I am heavy on the Spearmen and thus have a rather slow, frontal-combat force).

The Dragon Princes are exorbitantly expensive to field in large numbers - 300 points for a unit of 10 vs 210 points for the Silver Helms. That 90 points can make a massive difference in fitting the unit into the army list (not because of % rules, but rather just getting under the total force points-limit).

Additionally, Silver Helms don't lose out by having a second rank. Given that the riders can only make a single attack (and the horses cannot act at all), which defeats the point of taking Princes instead/makes the 2nd rank far too expensive.

I agree that having them as Core would be a good move, but they aren't. The sheer cheapness (and still relative durability) appeals to me a lot more than the more powerful Dragon Princes.

Actually, a good tactical move is to field a larger Silver Helm unit (with a, IMO, required Character to give them some teeth) and a small Dragon Prince unit, forcing the enemy to choose which to shoot at. Extremely costly, but if one wants to invest in cavalry I think that is the way to go.

++

In other news, what do people think about taking larger-than-minimum units of Reavers? I am wondering if they can be used to support the Silver Helms, instead of the Pinces (very different role). At their low cost, do you think a decent number could have a hope at rear-charging in-tandem with flanking Silver Helms, or alternatively hunting down enemy War Machines/Ranged units to make sure they cannot plug the Helms? Or do Shadow Warriors do this better/faster given that they can deploy closer to the enemy?

Pulstar
26-10-2010, 20:25
A 210 pt unit of Silver Helms has 10 attacks (5x2) at WS 4 with 10 wounds and 3+ AS
A 210 pt unit of Dragon Princes 12 attacks (5 wide) at WS 5 with 7 wounds and 2+ AS (plus other stuff like Fire ward, better LD, and a higher I)

The unit of SH has a chance to stop steadfast, but only if they don't take any damage.
The DP effectiveness dives off faster then the SH do as they start taking damage.

And if you drop the number of DP's to 5 you get the same attacks as 10 SH at 60 less points (150 vs 210)

The SH would be a slightly better choice for a character bus that is deeper then 1 rank. mostly because a second rank of DP's is horribly overprice for only 1 supporting attack.

7 DP > 10 SH ( both 210 pt units)
14 SH > 10 DP for a character bus. (294 vs 300 )

Not sure any army would take more the 14/10 of cav in 8th but a big SH unit maybe better then a big DP because of the extra bodies for the same points. (30 SH vs 21 DP but that is a 630 point unit without command )

Treadhead_1st
26-10-2010, 21:48
A 210 pt unit of Silver Helms has 10 attacks (5x2) at WS 4 with 10 wounds and 3+ AS
A 210 pt unit of Dragon Princes 12 attacks (5 wide) at WS 5 with 7 wounds and 2+ AS (plus other stuff like Fire ward, better LD, and a higher I)

The unit of SH has a chance to stop steadfast, but only if they don't take any damage.
The DP effectiveness dives off faster then the SH do as they start taking damage.

And if you drop the number of DP's to 5 you get the same attacks as 10 SH at 60 less points (150 vs 210)

The SH would be a slightly better choice for a character bus that is deeper then 1 rank. mostly because a second rank of DP's is horribly overprice for only 1 supporting attack.

7 DP > 10 SH ( both 210 pt units)
14 SH > 10 DP for a character bus. (294 vs 300 )

Not sure any army would take more the 14/10 of cav in 8th but a big SH unit maybe better then a big DP because of the extra bodies for the same points. (30 SH vs 21 DP but that is a 630 point unit without command )

Hm, interesting and worth noting - thanks.

Dragon Princes are much better cavalry - I would recommend them if a player is thinking of taking a small unit. However large units (as needed, either by the new rules or as a "character bus") are too expensive to do with Princes.

So essentially, for "shock cavalry" go Dragon Princes, but for "character-delivery cavalry" do it with Silver Helms. Sounds like the figures back that up (so I'm not totally crazy for thinking Silver Helms might be a good idea after all ;))

++

What do you think is the ideal size for "character bus" Silver Helms - 13 (for 7x2) or 14 (5x3) or something else entirely?

Tarian
27-10-2010, 00:53
Fielded a block of 15 Princes @3k, other than being horrifically expensive, they were quite deadly and feared. Then again, the Dragon took most of the shooting, saving the princes a lot of abuse.

Spacemonkey7
27-10-2010, 03:00
I'd be interested to hear what people think about uses for Ellyrian reavers, i recently bought a couple of Island of Blood Boxes with a friend, and am thinking of fielding a unit of 5 with bows (though i could take up to 10). Are bows a waste for these guys? Being able to pepper war machines and light troops after a march move seems useful (even if it's just a wound or two).

Trains_Get_Robbed
27-10-2010, 06:28
Shadow warriors and ellyrion reavers are both too overpriced for what they do to bring to the table. Thus why you rarley seen them played with (outside of fun games) by "veterean" h.e players.

ColShaw
27-10-2010, 14:12
Reavers are a good idea, but I think they're overcosted. If they came with bows built-in, they MIGHT be worth it.

I think I'll experiment with using some (I bought IoB too! :) ), but I don't expect them to be a permanent fixture of my army.

Von Wibble
27-10-2010, 14:54
Hm, interesting and worth noting - thanks.

Dragon Princes are much better cavalry - I would recommend them if a player is thinking of taking a small unit. However large units (as needed, either by the new rules or as a "character bus") are too expensive to do with Princes.

So essentially, for "shock cavalry" go Dragon Princes, but for "character-delivery cavalry" do it with Silver Helms. Sounds like the figures back that up (so I'm not totally crazy for thinking Silver Helms might be a good idea after all ;))

++

What do you think is the ideal size for "character bus" Silver Helms - 13 (for 7x2) or 14 (5x3) or something else entirely?

I agree with this comparison. Silver helms for me are the better choice for putting a character with - BSB can be a good idea (since they then get a naturally improved armour save) for this - but be careful not to let them get too far away from the action. Alternatively the assassin L1 noble with death magic first spell (mounted to get into range more speedily, and the spell can be cast even if in combat - effective at Ld9) is also nice.

As to size, it does depend on points size of course. In smaller games my preference would be 11 for 6x2, boosting this to 17 for 6 x 3 for bigger games. Imo it isn't that good an idea to go too wide as you want to be able to fit a chariot or monster into the front of the enemy as well as your unit.

I have to add that I would prefer a chariot and 6 dragon princes to 12 silver helms led by noble every time though. Shock attacks from small units still work in 8th as long as you support them well with missile fire and magic.

Red_Lep
27-10-2010, 14:57
Has anyone tried a Prince with the Potion of Strength(think thats its name) with the Blade of Leaping Gold?

I was wanting to take that Prince on a Griffon(for theme and I like it better). I think it'd be a good one-time hit on a low number/high armor save unit like knights with its 7 Ws7 S7 re-rollable attacks and then the Griffon's S5 attacks. It wouldn't be very point efficient but it'd be fun I think.

Kiras of the flame
27-10-2010, 16:29
silver helms are good I must admit... but one major reason that they don't appeal to me is that they can't take a magic banner... that diffrence changes their role very much...

Jericho
27-10-2010, 16:38
Like a lot of gamers I'm gonna be starting up Elves thanks to the IoB sets. Does this rough idea for 2500 seem doable?

L4 (Life?) w/ Talisman of Saphery/Robes, Silver Wand
BSB w/ I really can't remember what... Something good :)

50 Sea Guard w/ Command (no shields)

14 Swordmasters w/ Command
14 swordmasters w/ Command
24 White Lions w/ Command
8 Dragon Princes w/ Musician

2 Eagles

I think the list was around 2350 at this point. Theme is simple, 2 big blocks with SM's for support and a fast flank/war machine hunting force.

Red_Lep
27-10-2010, 17:00
Is your BSB on foot or mounted?

I'd recommend Armor of Caledor and Guardian Phoenix if on foot. If mounted, I'd go with Dragon Armor, Helm of Fortune, and Guardian Phoenix.

Jericho
27-10-2010, 17:34
Foot was the plan. I figured it was probably some combo like that, I just don't have many HE items memorized yet :)

Any suggestions for remaining points? A couple banners wouldn't hurt, thinking probably Banne of Discipline and Eternal Flame are good, cheap options.

ScytheSwathe
27-10-2010, 18:34
I would be inclined to give the seaguard shields, and split them into 2 units of about 24 or 30 Im assuming that youre aiming for a 2500 point army?
Squads of 30 would pretty much cover it.

Both those baners are very good buys for high elves.

Its a solid list that you will tweak to perfection as you play a few games

Jericho
27-10-2010, 19:46
Glad to hear I'm not out to lunch on my plans so far :) 2x28 was something I had thought about, it would probably burn up all my spare points (I was thinking of a L1 mage with the HE magic and Annulean (sp?) Crystal might be more useful in magic heavy environments perhaps).

Half the reason I was thinking one huge unit was that it's easier to keep them buffed with Life, and one quick reform can make them Steadfast for extended tarpit duty if necessary.

For banners I was thinking Discipline on the Lions, possibly Eternal Flame on the Sea Guard. I guess depending on the BRB FAQ, I might put Banner of Discipline on the unit with the general... can't remember how that entry worked for Inspiring Presence interaction. DP's would be good monster hunters with Banner of Eternal Flame... Shooting to negate regen versus harder hitting unit getting the boost for charging regenerating monsters. Tough call :p

So, now all I need to do is order 5 boxes of the Sea Guard booster, 3 boxes of White Lions, and 2 boxes of Dragon Princes ... maybe I'll just get started on what I have and see how it goes :D

Infiltraitor
27-10-2010, 21:53
Blade of leaping gold, potion of strength, dragon scale shield is the usual kit for my prince. I plant him in a LSG unit with the flaming banner and he's usually good to go. The biggest threat to him so far has been an ungodly great unclean one, but other than that, he has yet to let me down.

ScytheSwathe
28-10-2010, 01:23
"So, now all I need to do is order 5 boxes of the Sea Guard booster, 3 boxes of White Lions, and 2 boxes of Dragon Princes ... maybe I'll just get started on what I have and see how it goes "
Ebay is cheaper than GW for extra seaguard... http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330489674140 *cough cough*

I also split the reavers and swordmasters to make extra seaguard using bows and some 'sword-armed' dragon princes. It worked out quite well, most are easily cut at the waist, then its a matter of green stuff and metal rod to replace the spears, if i get round to it ill post them on my plog. I got 24 seaguard out of 2 IoB boxes between that and converting back the second command group.


Anyway. Personally, i take a level 4 and a level 2, and the annulian crystal is pretty much a must. between that, elf bonuses, drain magic, and remains in play spells i can shut down all but a slann's magic phases without too much trouble.

Big units are swings and roundabouts. Its easier to buff them with life spells, but they are easier to avoid, and dewllers on a unit like that is going to be tragic...
2 units will benefit less from buffs but are safer. Its your call, but it looks like a list made with some thought. Im confident that you will iron out faults to work for you. keep us posted with any thoughts!

Kiras of the flame
28-10-2010, 03:56
I think we should take advantage on one of the elves abilities... speed...

hard hitting troops are good but hordes seem a bit like a huge target...

Jericho
28-10-2010, 17:51
Speed is important but it sure isn't everything. Most fast moving units can't doo much to break units anymore. Some eagles to kill war machines and maybe a unit of heavy cav to tackle support units or monsters is often enough for many armies.

Francis
29-10-2010, 06:27
Right going to toss something out here guys. I am playing a 1500p tournament on Sunday and I do believe the environment is quite competitive. Unfortunately most of my collection is stashed at my parents house and as such out of reach. Could use som advice and comments.

What I do have available is: 30 LSG, 14 archers, 30 SM, 15 Ellyrian reavers, 16 shadow warriors and 2 repeater bolt throwers. Add to this almost any kind of High elf foot characters you can imagine (among which there is enough mages to run the white tower). I also have one mounted noble and one griffon prince (converted with GW).

What I am thinking about at the moment is:

1 Lvl 4 mage, Book of Hoeth or Book of Ashur, Iron Course Icon and Guardian Phoenix. Uses life. 360p

1 lvl 2 mage, Seerstaff. Uses Shadow. 165p

28 LSG, full command, Banner of Eternal Flame. 399p

14 Swordmasters, full command. 240p

14 Swordmasters, full command. 240p

6 Shadow warriors. 96p

Total:1500p


I am thinking about switching the lvl 4 for a White Sword Prince (250p), mostly for sentimental reasons, but it would free up 100 points (actually 110p but I would have to use High magic and anulian crystal on the lvl 2 for magic defense and the crystal steals 10 of those points). So what would your advice be?

Knock yourselves out :)

Mattyhavok
29-10-2010, 19:24
I would definitely try to fit a BSB in that list. You wouldn't want your large block of Seaguard running because of one bad roll.

Trains_Get_Robbed
30-10-2010, 06:33
Why is this considered a tactica? The same information just gets regurgiatated over and over. Its really quite drab. Everytime I see a post here from the lobby I get my hopes up then *thunderstomp by tomb scorpion* they disappear. We need to as a community of high elf players support others and help with list revisials, but it has seriously become enough.

Can we please post other tactic based questions/strategies surrounding high elfs?
(The only topic I can remember from the last week or so is the silver helm d.p debate *a whole one and a half pages*)

Ill start off for example: can phoniex guard be used for a hammer? Is it as effective as say the same amount of s.m (perhaps in different formations)? If so what would have to be taken lords/banner/'dedicated magic to them or buff would help, but not make unit'?

I run a unit with a.p banner 6 wide and go for lore of beasts basic buff (if I have a mage runningg kadon).

Kiras of the flame
30-10-2010, 07:29
I preffer the White lions for that job...

heck give the guardian the Terrifying mask of EEE! and they can play cat and mouse (which really works against skaven ;) )

b4z
30-10-2010, 09:31
Trains_Get_Robbed:

Wyssan's Wildform is a good choice for Phoenix Guard and it is only cast on a 10+. The prospect of S5 T4 Phoenix Guard suddenly changes the way I look at them as a unit. Boosted with the AP banner also. Makes them as you say similar in hitting power as SM/WL yet far far more resilient... Its a great idea.

The problem is you then look at White Lions who can do the same. Without the magic buff, without your archmage/mage needing Beasts [or another Lore which might be less helpful in other areas of your army], and without needing the Magic Banner. Which all saves points and in the Archmage/Mage case having to forgo other [maybe superior] Lores.

However... when the White Lions get hit back they die in droves compared to the now T4 Phoenix Guard with 4+ wards to help them out.

It is a very interesting discussion, how to make Phoenix Guard work as an offensive force, rather than their use as a defensive force. And an important one i havent thought about. After all if we can turn our primarily defensive special into something that can dish out, then it is of great benefit.

Considering also that everyone presumes Phoenix Guard as resilient/defensive, when your unit starts hitting them back hard, they will be suprised :)

As for the optimum Width of the Rank and Depth of the File i cannot contribute [yet].

PS. [Yes i maybe learning the game, but that doesn't mean you should discount my attempts to 'contribute' to a tactica discussion. And with that in mind, i will go and look carefully at the Lores of Magic, and the Magic Items in the Warhammer RuleBook and the High Elves Army Book, and try and add something to this discussion.]

EDIT: having had a look at all of the available Augment spells which might help in terms of offensive power:

1. Lore of Fire: Flaming Sword of Rhuin: +1 to Wound [8+] [24"]
2. Lore of Beasts: Wyssan's Wildform: +1 Strength +1 Toughness [10+] [12"]
3. Lore of Metal: Enchanted Blades of Aiban: +1 to Hit + Armour Piercing + Magical Attacks [9+] [24"]
4. Lore of Light: Birona's Timewarp: +1 Attacks [12+] [12"]
5. Lore of Shadow: Okkam's Mindrazor: Use Leadership for Strength [18+] [18"]

1. Flaming Sword of Rhuin offers essentially Strength 5, but without the subsequent -2 modifier to saves which is dissappointing.
2. Wyssan's Wildform clearly offers the best overall deal.
3. Enchanted Blades of Aiban, doesnt really help a great deal. Since 3+ or 4+ re-rolls is average 75% [or better] connecting hits. And Armour Piercing can be provided via a Banner as you have demonstrated.
4. Birona's Timewarp can make them poorer Sword Masters(?) with the extra attack each, but again only at Strength 4, not offensive enough.
5. Okkam's Mindrazor makes them Strength 9. Which is scary. But its casting value is entirely out of sync with the other lower to cast Augments, and makes it more situational on the Winds of Magic. Whereas Wyssan's Wildform with a Level 4/2 Archmage/Mage even on one/two dice you can get it off.

EDIT2: I will now go fishing around in the Magic Items.

Treadhead_1st
30-10-2010, 12:40
Something that I don't recall being mentioned, is how do other High Elf players rate the whole swathe of magic items available to us these days (with the rulebook and the army book)?

Are large numbers of attacks (such as the Blade of Leaping Gold) better, given the high-WS and I of our Princes, or is higher strength (such as the Giantsblade/Star Lance) going to give better results? Or is it still a case of the good old traditional Great Weapon being as effective, and cheaper, than the magic weapons, particularly now it's +2Str when mounted?

Then we have protectives - both from armour and from talismans/enchanted items. There are lots of ways to get Ward Saves now (in addition to the Phoenix/Vambrace/Armour of Protection), and there are all sorts of tricks available (such as Glittering Scale armour making our characters harder to hit) - many of which can be combined with things like the Pond Stone to gain the benefits of the Vambrace whilst having better/different armour effects.

Obviously there are a huge amount to list and sort through, but I was wondering what the general consensus is on the new shiny stuff that's floating around.

Whether tooled-up Princes/Nobles are worth it compared to magic users or more infantry/cavalry is another discussion entirely, but for the sake of argument I'm interested in what people think of the magic equipment, and, more importantly, why to use it (or not to use it) in the context of the High Elf army.

Tarian
30-10-2010, 17:28
I field my Phoenix Guard 5x4, and always have a Shadow Mage running around with them, with high WS and I, getting Mind Razor on them can make a horrible mess out of enemy units, while maintaining their survivability. Arguably, though, Swordmasters would make the better Mind Razor target, unless your opponent has I6+, because of the extra attack and higher WS. Even spears are absolutely fearsome with Razor on, due to fighting in such deep ranks, was able to drop a Treeman in one round of combat with Razored spears.

Mind Razor is surprisingly easy to get off with a Lvl 4 and the Banner of Sorcery. With +1 to wound, Flaming Sword is better against very tough targets like Steam Tanks, Dragons, and the like, as you'd need 5s to wound, which is better than +1S, despite not affecting the AS.

As for the new magic items, they get a firm "meh" from me for the most part. Our Princes are decent fighters, but they need all of the protection they can get, as they can go down very easily, making it hard for me to justify spending over half his gear allotment on more attacks. Standard of Discipline is a beautiful thing when using an Archmage that is not Teclis as your general, for that sweet, sweet Ld 10.

Arcane item wise, I think our stuff is pretty much better across the board than the items in the book, so I don't really touch those.

Armor-wise, we can take much of the same items, but for cheaper or better, so unless you're planning to duplicate effects, there's no real reason imo, like Silvered Steel v. AoC, Dawn Stone v. Helm of Fortune, etc.

Treadhead_1st
31-10-2010, 16:29
As for the new magic items, they get a firm "meh" from me for the most part. Our Princes are decent fighters, but they need all of the protection they can get, as they can go down very easily, making it hard for me to justify spending over half his gear allotment on more attacks. Standard of Discipline is a beautiful thing when using an Archmage that is not Teclis as your general, for that sweet, sweet Ld 10.

Arcane item wise, I think our stuff is pretty much better across the board than the items in the book, so I don't really touch those.

Armor-wise, we can take much of the same items, but for cheaper or better, so unless you're planning to duplicate effects, there's no real reason imo, like Silvered Steel v. AoC, Dawn Stone v. Helm of Fortune, etc.

That's the impression I am getting.

However I can see the benefits of the Glittering Scale armour - combined with the Vambraces of Defence, mount on a horse and then add either Great Weapon and whatever enchanted items tickle your fancy or Sword of Might + Shield. It's not the most impressive armour save, but he'll have a solid ward-save, re-rollable armour, is harder to hit and can still lay down the pain (with whichever weapon you give him). That's the kind of thing I am thinking at the moment for my own Cavalry Prince.

++

In other news, what do people think about using Shadow Warriors as BSB "bunkers"?

I know it's not very standard, but it's something I thought of at 4 in the morning - if you give the BSB the Sacred Incense, Armour of Caledor for some survivability, and a Longbow helps him fit in with the unit (and maybe a Great Weapon for offence).

The idea would be to keep this unit with the main battle-line, providing all the BSB benefits. The unit can hide behind the main combat blocks, gaining "cover saves" from most enemy attention, but plink away at any flanking support units with their bows - and be relatively safe from any retaliation thanks to being hard to hit with ranged weapons from the Skirmisher/Sacred Incense combo. The unit is slightly better in combat than a standard unit of Archers, and it can march-and-shoot (well, maybe not the Noble) which helps it to keep up with your offensive strikes.

Just something I am mulling over, and I am thinking that it may work, albeit it is a bit costly. I have just found that in a combat block the BSB usually dies (just allocating attacks and not through challenges) losing my army the great re-rolls. Having him out of combat seems like a good idea, but I have found that if he is somewhere like Archers or Seaguard he tends to be too far out of the action.

Desert Rain
31-10-2010, 16:38
I think that a shadow warrior bunker might work, it isn't the most optimal way of fielding SWs and a BSB but whatever.

I'd give the BSB the reaver bow so that he has some good shooting. Then either the enchanted shield or mask of the merlord for some extra armour save.

Trains_Get_Robbed
31-10-2010, 23:02
Good tactical question about the shadow waarriors. Although not ideal, it can work and be a change of pace instead of the usual 168 point footed noble bsb.

I would agree with desert though that the reaver bow is your best option for him at that point and running him with hw/shield and merlord mask for a plus 3 plus six in c.c.

P.g: i don't mind my s.m and and w.l. however I find that I would like to some how make our troop (p.g) be an offensive machine taking head long charges and charging themselves. T4 s5 plus 4 ward and maybe a -3 due to a.p banneror maybe standard of balance to negate tough predetermined enemies could be brutal.

trotsky
01-11-2010, 09:38
What is people's opinion on BSB: mounted or on foot? Especially interested regarding a 2000pt army of roughly a level 4, seaguard, PG, Dprinces and other stuff i haven't decided on yet.
Thanks :)

DwD
01-11-2010, 09:53
I prefer my BSB on foot mostly because he will be close to most of the army that way to get reroll on LD test, also a group of dragon princes are easily killed and you dont want to lose the banner.

trotsky
01-11-2010, 09:59
I wasn't actually thinking of putting him in DPs. Is that even more stupid? I have always thought foot is better but the mounted model is so pretty and i don't have anything else to use it for :(

Desert Rain
01-11-2010, 10:41
If you want him mounted stick him with the dragon princes. If he is in an infantry unit he will be sniped very easily.

Trains_Get_Robbed
02-11-2010, 01:27
No, a mounted bsb can hold the banner of the world dragon and fend off 13ths for 40 plus s.m and have 3 attacks and a plus 3 while doing it :D

Kiras of the flame
02-11-2010, 01:49
I actually put him in a 9 group DP in my 2500 game...

then again there's a prince on a star dragon so they're focusing on the big scary dragon rather than the dragon princes...

in smaller games I recommend the silver helms with shields due to their humble (though still high) price...

I haven't tried putting a bsb on a chariot... sounds interesting and most of the time he's either on his own or in a unit...

Francis
02-11-2010, 06:15
@Trains. You asked for tactics and not just army building, I thought I should share my approach to this. I usually deploy in a refused flank and a mild Echelon formation, forcing my opponent to engage with part of his army at a time.

As the battle progresses my army will stretch out as one wing (DPs, SMs, WLs, Lord on Dragon, SHs) advances to crush the enemy, while the other flank (spearmen, LSGs, PGs) falls back and inward or holds their position in close combat. The whole thing functions a bit like the Greek Phalanx would in a battle, slowly turning to one side (the Greeks turned right but my army naturally turns the way I chooses in my deployment). The strong side have to break the enemy flank they are engaging and come around to support the holding flank before the enemy reaches and breaks the weak side. It isn't the most advanced tactic in the world but when my aggressive flank isnít blunted in their assault it usually works like a charm.

If I can afford them Shadow warriors and Ellyrian Reavers are placed on the weak flank to cause as much havoc and disruption to the enemy as is possible to slow them down.

Since it seems GW has this idea that the HEs work a bit like a Greek citizen army I thought "why not expand upon that?"

Kiras of the flame
02-11-2010, 09:19
that's a very sound tactic...

should try that out...

also I thought they based it off of Rome not Greece...

Francis
02-11-2010, 16:56
also I thought they based it off of Rome not Greece...

As far as I can tell it is Greek. Elite citizen armies where everybody suplies their own weapons, the primary weapon is the spear and they fight in phalanx formation.

Sounds very Greek to me. :)

Treadhead_1st
02-11-2010, 18:40
@Trains. You asked for tactics and not just army building, I thought I should share my approach to this. I usually deploy in a refused flank and a mild Echelon formation, forcing my opponent to engage with part of his army at a time.

As the battle progresses my army will stretch out as one wing (DPs, SMs, WLs, Lord on Dragon, SHs) advances to crush the enemy, while the other flank (spearmen, LSGs, PGs) falls back and inward or holds their position in close combat. The whole thing functions a bit like the Greek Phalanx would in a battle, slowly turning to one side (the Greeks turned right but my army naturally turns the way I chooses in my deployment). The strong side have to break the enemy flank they are engaging and come around to support the holding flank before the enemy reaches and breaks the weak side. It isn't the most advanced tactic in the world but when my aggressive flank isn’t blunted in their assault it usually works like a charm.

If I can afford them Shadow warriors and Ellyrian Reavers are placed on the weak flank to cause as much havoc and disruption to the enemy as is possible to slow them down.

Since it seems GW has this idea that the HEs work a bit like a Greek citizen army I thought "why not expand upon that?"

Francis, I'm currently trying to knock together a Macedonian-inspired High Elf force. Would you be willing to go into a little more depth re: your tactics, or perhaps what you have found to be do's-and-don'ts with regards to army list building? If you feel it may clutter up the thread, it can be a PM.

From my own thinking, I reckon a Greek-style force could work with the High Elves in 8th edition. Big blocks (well, big for expensive troops) are key in the game, and having the extra oomph from "martial prowess" only helps. Because of this focus (be it Spearmen or Sea Guard as the core) the High Elves have, as a force, very similar weaknesses to the Greek phalanx-system of combat - and as such looking into actually using our cavalry, skirmishers, ranged options and elite troops to sure up weaknesses is a good way to go, even if they are not *fantastic* options in this edition in their own right (because whilst mathematically, say, cavalry isn't so hot in this edition, our cavalry compliments our basic troops and gives the force as a whole greater teeth - whilst leaving these options out opens up weaknesses that the opponent can exploit. Basically their worth to the force is greater than the sum of their abilities in a vacuum, and I feel many players dismiss RBTs, Shadow Warriors and our Cavalry all too easily).

Francis
02-11-2010, 22:57
Sounds like a nice idea Threadhead. My tactic really isn't a lot more than I have already explained. The most important thing is to be able to punch through on the flank of your choice.

As such the heavy hitters in the army (Sword Masters, White Lions, Dragon Princes and large units of silver helms) are a naturally part of that flank. DPs can, due to their speed, actually start in the centre and move where you want them in order to confuse your opponent. A damage oriented prince will normally perform great in this part of the line, put a White Sword prince with the SMs or WLs, or use a mounted prince with the DPs. A Stardragon will of course help you break through even faster and he will in most cases be able to turn upon the enemy rear right away due to his speed.

The centre and weak flank is the domain of the spearmen, LSG and Phoenix Guard. Especially the PG with their high Ward save and good LD are excellent at the very end of your battleline. A well protected BSB is great in this part of your army to make sure your anvil units keep fighting. You might also want to use a lvl 2 life mage with seerstaff, choose regrowth and throne of vines and have him ress your fallen anvil troops all over the place.

For the lord choice, as I have said a damage dealing prince is great on the strong flank, while mages are there to support your line as much as possible. A lvl 4 should be used to protect against magic and to weaken the part of the enemy you want to punch through. Mages are good but they are not that important in this kind of army.

For your Alexander theme, and to use a tactic he made famous, you might want to have a mounted prince (Alexander) and a large unit of DPs (companion cavalry). Keep them in reserve in the centre and punch through the gaps that the echelon formation leaves in your, and your opponents, battlelines. ( I hope you understand what I am getting at here, a bit hard to explain really).

The true bane of this army is gunlines, pure and simple. Beware the dwarves as it were. Besides warmachines you might also get problems if your strong flank gets locked in combat for several turns. Go for the enemy BSB and general if you are able to, unless of course it would be a waste of attacks and would loose you the combat. The thing that makes this tactic work is that the enemy are usually strongest in the centre of his lines.

As for the Reavers and Shadow Warriors, they work best in a disruption role on the weak flank (as was the case with light infantry and cavalry in ancient Greece).

Hope this helps at all.

Spacemonkey7
03-11-2010, 03:01
What strategies would you us to neutralise a Blood thirster or greater daemon in an all commers list?

I'm doing up a list, and model wise i'm a bit limited. The only elements i feel that could even put some dent in a thirster are my white lion and a couple of bolt throwers, and my life mage seems very vulnerable to it. Any suggestions to take one out in an all commers list (besides mindrazor)?

Tarian
03-11-2010, 03:04
Assuming it's a high points game, then... you don't... seriously. Unless it has the firestorm blade, you can't really beat it, even with a kitted lord on a Star Dragon.

EDIT: I guess magic spam and pray or something.

Trains_Get_Robbed
03-11-2010, 06:44
You can beat a thirster aoc, vambraces , great weapon, star dragon an either potion of foolihardiness or others trickster shard. It will take two turns most likley, but its very possible. 3-4 wounds from prince and dragon first turn then you your prince finishes him off before the thirster can strike again killing you or your ride.

Francis: thank you, that's exactly what I'm talking about. Refused flank is a common tactic that takes the most skill to master (in my opinon anyway). I often find myself using "pincer" deploying s.m and w.l on either flank with the cav. Shield wall in front of my spears which are infront of any missiles/artillery. I just sit back with my weak blocks move quickly to assualt any hard to kill unit/ big unit with my cav and flee upon loosing combat, only to regroup and attck two turns later. Baiting my opponet into the soft "underbaelly" of my line the spears. By turn three or four the big things are in combat with the magically buffed spears getting flank help from my elites, or arw on mop up duty.

Edit: how far do you tend to advance your spears while they wait to bengage? Do you just reposition often? I tend to do just bait and flee things when **** hits the fan, and the refused flank seems hardest to do it with since it seems nothing moves a ton into open space.

Francis
03-11-2010, 13:51
@Trains. When I deploy I use a mild echelon, in order to try to confuse my opponent a bit. As such I don't move my spears or LSG much at all as the battle progresses. If anything I usually fall a bit back in order to prolong the time the strong flank got to punch through. You also want your opponent to want to engage you weak flank, which is why a unit of Phoenix Guards (which many consider the best HE unit in 8th) fits so well on the weak end of the battlelines. It might just trick the foe to think that that side is dangerous as well.

Most foes wonít be able to react quick enough to counter this tactic, as long as they haven't been able to do so in the deployment phase, which is why deployment is rather important here. You have to be a bit sneaky. Perhaps let your cav. start in the centre or closer to the weak flank, just to have them redirect to your stronger flank as fast as their horses can take them when the battle begins. Now if your opponent starts to move his army in order to threaten the flanks of your breakthrough units, then the spears and LSG will move up in support. The beauty of the echelon is that it is so hard to flank if played properly.

As for your pincer, where would wargaming be without Hannibal Barca?:D I have to try it next time I play. I have used the pincer tactic before but never with the cavalry in front of the spears. Looking forward to testing it.

Kiras of the flame
04-11-2010, 02:25
I've been thinking of using a strategy that would have my general on a star dragon on one side and a strong force of DP's on the other... they would spread out enough so the enemy will have a hard time trying to pick who to shoot at...

all the while I'll have the bulk of my forces move right in


how does that fair?

Tarian
04-11-2010, 02:42
I've tried it, it works better imo to actually have them near each other, and have something like reavers or helms to flank. Individually, the Princes or Dragon have problems breaking units, but if you put them together, unless the unit is *huge* they'll usually cause enough casualties to threaten Steadfast.

Kiras of the flame
04-11-2010, 03:16
ahhh... so use them in a spearhead formation

Tarian
04-11-2010, 03:21
Yeah, I tend to run 'em straight forward to get into combat asap, granted, my DP block is 15 strong, and the Dragon Lord eats another chunk of points, so every turn they're not in combat...

Pulstar
04-11-2010, 17:26
So what is the standard build for a White Sword prince?

White Sword, AoC, GP and ToL or would using the Other Trickster Shard in place of the ToL be a better option?

ColShaw
04-11-2010, 17:44
You could always go with the Gauntlets of Temakador/AoC if you really want to be hard to kill. I like the Talisman of Loec, personally (I've used it on a Swordmaster Bladelord so he can suicide-bomb enemy Heroes before).

riotknight
04-11-2010, 21:25
Sorry if this has already been brought up, but I felt i Should share a really cool and useful combo that has been game changing for me the last few times I've tried it.

Level 4 - Silver Wand, RObes, Talisman of Saphery - High Magic.
Level 2 - Seer Staff - Enchanted Blades & Scaly Save

These two have performed amazingly well together. Granted I can see it being less strong against High Toughness/Armour armies. I average about 8-9 dice per magic phase. Cast with Metal, depending where he is and what the situation looks like, either single unit buff or, all models within 12 for Scaly save, this turned my Phoenix guard into monsters with a 3+ 4++. Spear Elves are worrisome as well.

The trick is, my opponent tends to be more afraid of flames of the phoenix, so holds back his dispel dice and lets the other spells through, I throw 4 dice at flames, just to see what happens and he inevitably attemps the dispel on it! On top of all that, if it goes through, I do some onster damage while making my units harder to kill. Then if I have 1 dice left over, i'll throw up Shield of Saphery on one of my units and just add to the saving grace.


I moved away from High magic when the new book came out, thinking it couldn't possibly compete with Life or Shadow, but I think I have found a new staple combo in my army.

Pulstar
04-11-2010, 21:59
Shadow on the level 4 and High on the level 2 also works.

The problem for you opponent is what does he dispel? Flames or Withering? Or wait for the Pit of Shadows that is coming?

Or does he save his dice for the Mind Razor that is going to go on the unit of Spearmen he just charged?

And since you have up to 3 RIP spells (and Drain magic going) chances are he won't be casting many spells in his phase either.

High magic has 4 very good spells. (Shield, Fury, Flames, Vauls) CoAA is also good, but only if you go shooty with your list.

Arbiter7
05-11-2010, 12:46
thanks, riotknight! I hadn't noticed that combo. Metal can work for elvsies after all. looking forward to testing it.

Kiras of the flame
05-11-2010, 16:16
I think it's generally thought of that any kind of magic is good for us...

I mean we are the high elves so it's a general rule that we're the masters of magic

well next to slann anyway... still on debate for me

Tarian
05-11-2010, 17:33
Depends on who our wizard is, and who the Slaan is. I think Teclis is probably considered the most powerful caster currently in the game right now.

Kiras of the flame
06-11-2010, 00:12
Teclis will always pwn in magic... It became official when GW put it in their general lore

Treadhead_1st
07-11-2010, 22:36
Hm - I'm having trouble working out whether to run a Prince + Lvl2 or Lvl3/4 + Noble.

Do you think the extra kit available to the Prince over the Noble (things like Vambraces, Ogre/Giant blade, various combos) could be worth it? I've accepted that in my army (Classical theme) I'm going to be magic-light whichever way I do it, but I'm just looking for options.

How would you kit out a mounted Prince?
How would you kit out a mounted Noble?

Which do you think is better value-for-points?

I'd really appreciate some help on this.

Draconian77
07-11-2010, 23:50
Something which many players like to point out is that for the same points as a fully kitted out combat Lord you can normally afford two combat Heroes who will obviously have extra attacks, wounds, deployment options, etc.

Now, high Ld Lords used to be quite vital(although not for Elves) but the rules for BsB's this edition make the extra Ld a lot less important.

If it's a choice, a Lv4 + 1-2 Nobles would be my recommendation.

EnternalVoid
08-11-2010, 05:37
Thing I have found with High elf nobles is that they are not effective for their points. Bare with me here. To kill a noble you need to do 2 wounds to a Toughness 3 model. Sure it has WS6, but troops with WS3-4 hit on 4+. 4 Attacks thrown his way, 2 should hit, and if they have any sort of Strength have a decent chance of wounding. Now we can always go defensive to try and save those wounds but that leads to the other problem.

Unless they have the Armor of Caledor, it is hard to get a solid defense on your noble if he is unmounted with out sacrificing his ability to wage offense. Generally the armor save will be either 4+ or 5+ and perhaps a ward save if you go great weapon, and if you don't go great weapon you only are getting 3 Str4 attacks generally. Those points might honestly be better spent getting more elite troops by this point.

Now the Armor of Caledor is likely going on your prince if you have one, or if you don't have a prince it is likely on your BSB that you took instead. So sure two nobles can produce more S6 swings if they go for it, but they can't both take the same magic items to get the defense to keep them in the game. I have been trying out a LV4, Prince, and BSB *and maybe another mage*. The prince has been getting the Armor of Caledor and either the white sword or a GW, and my BSB is getting Dragon Armor, Shield, Helm of Fortune and Guardian Phoenix. Sure he lacks offense but I would prefer my BSB is not fighting Chosen, chaos warriors, Saurus and the like. That is the Prince's job.

If I was not going the prince, I would likely go LV4 and BSB *with armor of Caledor and guardian phoenix* and not bother with a second noble *though maybe a second mage*. The only thing that might lure me into a second noble is if I get my dragon princes fielded, then I might mount one with them.

Drakemaster
08-11-2010, 12:06
A fun combo with Nobles is with GW and Armour of Stars, combined with a Life mage. The armour means he only suffers 1 wound per combat, then teleports away, and the Lore Atribute for the mage means you can keep healing that one wound back. Great for challenging really dangerous characters whou would otherwise either slaughter your troops or cause lots of overkill in challenges - your noble goes first (hopefully causing some damage) then suffers a single wound in return, limiting the enemy's character to a single wound contribution to the combat result.

Its fairly risky of course - that random teleport move can leave him vulnerable to being charged or shot at when he's isolated. Still, its relatively cheap compared to many Noble loadouts (123 points).

Kiras of the flame
09-11-2010, 05:12
nobles are a bit.... meh

wilsongrahams
09-11-2010, 10:36
nobles are a bit.... meh

I disagree - they're only slightly less powerful than a Prince, and for a lot less points. Sure you can take less Wargear too, but just one good item will make up for some shortfall, and the basic gear is cheaper than a Prince's.

This means you can take more of them, and especially useful with 25% limit for both Lords and Heroes.

Wyrmnax
09-11-2010, 16:04
I agree with pretty much everything Eternal listed

If a Noble is not mounted, he either has the Armor of Caledor or a sucky armor save.

Your BSB will want the Armour more than any other Noble you have. If you have a Prince, he gets dibs on it over your other Nobles too.

Then you have a T3 Noble. Spearmen will find it easy to wound him. And he is somewhat expensive. Id rather have 5 more Swordsmasters...

Editing for a silly idea:

Lords

Red Ranger
Prince (Great Weapon, Elven Steed, Armor of Caledor, Sacred Incense) - 235

Black Ranger
Prince (Great Weapon, Dragon Armor, Shield, Barded Elven Steed, Vambraces of Defense,) - 240


Heroes
Blue Ranger
Noble (Great Weapon, Dragon Armor, Shield, Barded Elven Steed, BSB - Banner of the World Dragon) - 202

Yellow Ranger
Noble (Great Weapon, Dragon Armor, Shield, Barded Elven Steed, Talisman of Saphery) - 152

Green Ranger
Noble (Great Weapon, Dragon Armor, Shield, Barded Elven Steed, The amulet of Light) - 132

Tack it into a 5 dragon prince unit and mow down a enemy flank...

Tarian
10-11-2010, 01:56
First of all, that is hilarious Wrymnax.

Second, I believe that nobles are alright, but I wouldn't take more than one of them (Usually the BSB). I find that you can make a freakishly hard to kill Prince with his massive Magic Item allotment coupled with some very nice items in the HE book, but Nobles tend to be lacking in either offense or defense due to point limitations.

Wyrmnax
10-11-2010, 11:30
Was thinking about a way to make use of the Nobles, thats the only way i found to reasonabily use multiples...

The fact that they are mounted means that they will have a reasonable AS even withouth magical protection

I was trying to take advantage of the not absurdly expensive 3 attacks, S4 while minimizing the problems of the T3 and low armor save. I am actually surprise at how effective that little play of mine sounds...

Desert Rain
10-11-2010, 15:43
I believe that the this noble can be useful in small games:

Noble: Dragon Armour, Great Weapon, Luckstone, Radiant Gem of Hoeth.

Ld9, some fighting and some magic, but very fragile though.

ScytheSwathe
10-11-2010, 17:50
I had a good long think about nobles a while ago, because i was using one to fill some extra points. I honestly cant think of a good use fr one besides Giving him radient gem, and using him as a backup wizard for the +2 to dispel.
A swordmaster champion can dish out as much, and has more survivability because its harder to pick out of a unit, and is cheaper. Much cheaper.

DwD
10-11-2010, 17:53
Problem is a Champion can't carry a BSB :) And getting to reroll is so awesome you dont want to lose the game cause you got unlucky and failed a test and got caught and your entire unit was destroyed

ScytheSwathe
10-11-2010, 19:59
Ok, i wasnt counting the obligatory BSB in my analysis of nobles

Tarian
11-11-2010, 03:43
They are good leaders for a small warband, usually with AoC + Guardian Phoenix, or mounted, as they're still very soft.

Althwen
11-11-2010, 10:25
Hi guys, usually this is not my forum to hang out in, but since one of my mates has a very hard time winning with his HE, I decided to have a go at the list and see if I can come up with any ways to make it work any better.

My mate's main problem seems to be the HE's Core choices. Elves can be numerous but don't seem to be able to compete with any of the other armies in our metagame (VC, DE, WoC, WE, Skaven, Daemons).
High Elves (and I'm purely talking Core units here) seem not as strong in the shooting phase as WE's and DE. And don't stand a chance against a horde of Ghouls or Skaves and just get their heads bashed in when faced with WoC or Daemons.

So, my question is, what do you guys do with that obligatory 25% of your points that must be allocated into Core units? In, let's say, a 2k list.

Thanks in advance!

King_Pash
11-11-2010, 12:09
My suggestion, get a nice 20-man Spear block with Muso and Standard (don't bother with the champ), then take 3x 10-man units of archers. Our archers can outrange DE, do some damage to expensive WE and absolutely love DoC. Those 5+ ward saved don't seem too great when you're rolling 2/3 saves per squad shooting.. :P

Desert Rain
11-11-2010, 12:11
In my 2k list I use 23 Spearmen with full command, 14 LSG with full command and 10 Archers. The Spears are joined by the BSB and the LSG are joined by my archmage. The LSG and Archers are support units while the Spears are a combat unit. They aren't very strong against most things, the BSB helps with his S6, but they work pretty well against most other armies basic core units. Many Lore of Shadows spells such as Miasma, Withering and of course Mindrazor makes them a truly scary unit for everything.

Althwen
11-11-2010, 13:00
Gr8, thanks. So the key is to mix em up a bit. Don't fall for the 30+ LSG horde unit? That always seemd like a huge point sink to me.

Do you still employ Bolt throwers? Or have they become obsolete in your opinions?

As for special choices, I guess a combination of Swordmasters/White lions and some 6 dragon princes or so to flank charge with?

Desert Rain
11-11-2010, 13:29
The only core unit I would take in large numbers is spearmen and even then 35 or so would be the maximum size. This however, is just my preferences - other players will probably tell you to take different sizes and units.

I use a single RBT in most games, it is fragile but it is pretty good at thinning out ranks and depleting small units.

Swordmasters and White Lions are the infantry units that I prefer, and some dragon princes and a chariot as well great eagle rounds of the army.

King_Pash
11-11-2010, 13:55
Meh, i've kind of put my 4 or so Bolt Throwers aside since 8th. They just don't get the damage I expect for that many points. They don't hit large creatures as well, kill about 2/3 average infantry per turn and require an investment to protect. I just think for 100pts we can do better.

Since ditching the BT, I have progressed to using my Eagles a lot more. I field 2 in every game and they have never failed to let me down. From taking down warmachines and light shooting infantry, to chasing down running units and providing extra combat res. This is by far the best 50pts spent in my opinion. I would recommend at least 2 in a 2k-2250pts, perhaps more in larger games. You'll be surprised how good they can be!

Althwen
11-11-2010, 14:05
Good to hear both opinions. I'm no stranger to Great Eagle power as one of my two armies is Wood Elves (WoC being the other).
With the Core points spread out over Spearmen,archers and LSG, I can see why further investment in shooting is debatable while those same points can actually be invested into some much needed speed or hitting power.

On to characters! My gaming group frowns upon the use of special characters (what can I say, it's a lingering resentment hailing from 4th ed. Warhammer Fantasy) So no Teclis!

In a 2k battle I suspect the most viable choice is a lvl 4 mage with the ever-so-imba Lore of Shadow?
But has anyone tried a Prince on one of those lesser dragons? Their breath attacks make them more attractive than a Griffon and in 2k battles a stardragon is out of the question.

Desert Rain
11-11-2010, 14:13
Meh, i've kind of put my 4 or so Bolt Throwers aside since 8th. They just don't get the damage I expect for that many points. They don't hit large creatures as well, kill about 2/3 average infantry per turn and require an investment to protect. I just think for 100pts we can do better.I have some doubts about my RBT, but I'm giving it a chance before I decide whether to drop it or to keep it. I wouldn't mind another couple of eagles instead, but I don't have any models for them and my hobby budget is practically 0 these days. I'm thinking about either some shadow warriors, some reavers or perhaps another chariot instead of the RBT. Or perhaps I could just expand the sizes of some other units, 100 points gives you rather much actually.

Wyrmnax
11-11-2010, 15:22
Im another one that dropped my RBTs since 8th. The only thing they are worth nowadays is causing multiple wounds, but many other options could do the same case. Its just too expensive for what it brings to the table.

Chiungalla
11-11-2010, 15:28
I would at least put one in every army list. Just to thread lone characters, fast cavalry and such things... or kill some shooting units. There are usually enough good targets for one. But I would not field more then 2 most of the time.

King_Pash
11-11-2010, 15:57
I have some doubts about my RBT, but I'm giving it a chance before I decide whether to drop it or to keep it. I wouldn't mind another couple of eagles instead, but I don't have any models for them and my hobby budget is practically 0 these days. I'm thinking about either some shadow warriors, some reavers or perhaps another chariot instead of the RBT. Or perhaps I could just expand the sizes of some other units, 100 points gives you rather much actually.

A good couple of suggestions for getting cheap Eagle models - try hunting down some WE Warhawk riders (ebay is your friend) or even easier get a IoB Griffon and convert that. I recently picked up two Griffons for £10 including postage on Warseer. It pays to keep an eye on the Trade Forum ;)

Tarian
11-11-2010, 17:13
Just a side note, Shadow Warriors are not held in pretty much any esteem at all. I use mine as fanatic bait...

ColShaw
11-11-2010, 17:34
Just a side note, Shadow Warriors are not held in pretty much any esteem at all. I use mine as fanatic bait...

Sadly, they're not even very good at that. They get within 8" of one Night Goblin regiment, say they draw 3 Fanatics; those Fanatics are still fewer points than the Shadow Warriors! :(

It's too bad, because I really WANT to like my Shadow Warriors. They're pretty models, good fluff... they just suck soooo much...

Tarian
11-11-2010, 18:02
Oh, I know that ColShaw, but they're one of the few fully painted units in my army... :cries:

Pulstar
11-11-2010, 19:08
It's too bad, because I really WANT to like my Shadow Warriors. They're pretty models, good fluff... they just suck soooo much...

I wish we could sneak some poison onto the Shadow Warriors arrows.

That would fix them...

Kiras of the flame
11-11-2010, 19:39
shadow warriors are only good for taking out the enemies soft spots... like War machines or lone characters... Actually if they did a better job as skirmishers then they would be acceptable in tourneys...

it's not that they're bad... but at their point cost right now they're not as effective as we wanted them to be...

I mean even the reavers are better as a sacrifice unit

enyoss
14-11-2010, 04:00
Hey all,

Some handy tips here from you guys. I finally got my first 8th edition game in today, thanks to a charitable local warseerite who took me in for the day :).

Firstly, I loved it. As an infantry lover, many of the changes are right up my street. I have also found an even better build for my Prince: White Sword, Talisman of Preservation and the Other Trickster's Shard (this guy duked out an ancient Stegadon one on one!).

Still, I have a few questions for you lot. Mainly, I have no idea how to use magic now. I used to run two level 2 mages, but that seems a bit tricky in 8th. For one, it uses points which are desperately needed for unit-beefing (or so it seems). Anybody got any pointers on what they do magic-wise?

Oh, and for a guy who has had his fair share of rubber-lancing, re-rolling on ASF was a nice surprise (I'm not setting my opinions in stone just yet... I fear it might be a bit too good).

Chiungalla
14-11-2010, 09:02
As a rule of thump, I would say two casters with level 4-6. (For a game between 2.000 and 3.000 points.)
You need two so you can have two arcane items. And to make it a good idea to try dispelling with risk of failure involved, since the same mage can't dispel again in that phase, if he failed once. And a level 4 is very good nowadays, since he can cast even difficult spells with relative ease, and gets a very useful bonus on dispels as well.

The banner of sorcery is even more awesome now, then it was before.
Same is true for the annulian crystal (is that how it is called in english?).

enyoss
14-11-2010, 16:52
The annullian crystal did seem like a good idea (not that it ever wasn't), so I took that on my Level 2. Not that it mattered, as my 7th edition habit of plonking the mage in my spearmen with the Prince meant he got greased pretty early on. That's the next problem: figuring out how to keep what casters I have alive!

Mmm, looks like I'm going to have to figure out how to squeeze an archmage in there too.

King_Pash
14-11-2010, 21:34
My personal tactic for keeping casters alive is to out them in a unit of 15xLSG. They have enough to do some ranged damage and can defend against light attacks. If the game allows (if I face negligible shooting/low magic armies) I put him just outside the unit so he still gets LoS rolls. This tends to shift target priority for my opponent and usually means my Mage suffers a wound at worst. Yet to lose a Mage this way!

Chiungalla
14-11-2010, 21:56
Even archers can defend mages from light attacks (stand and shoot and going first with rerolls against nearly everything).

Desert Rain
15-11-2010, 16:35
In my games so far I've used 14 LSG with FC as my bunker. The Archmage has the Staff of Solidity and the Talisman of Preservation and has never died so far.

Liancour
15-11-2010, 18:39
I wouldn't put any character in a LSG unit. In all my 8th game to date, I lost one full 20 lsg unit on turn 1, due to war machine shot (and failed panic test, when there were enough LSG to test).

I know I'm really unlucky with panic test, but stone throwers are my nemesis. I almost never get first turn (even with the correct magic item), then get shot by a stone thrower in one of my core unit, and then they flee.. :rolleyes:

25% core is my main problem as it's a waste of point as they die too quickly and do few damages (and 250 are a pretty expensive bait to protect special units). I'm strongly considering to do MSU with my core, which would be very curious.

Tarian
15-11-2010, 18:42
I use my PG to bunker my mage if I'm fielding a Lord, else they hang out with the archers or spears if they're just level 2s.

Desert Rain
15-11-2010, 19:08
I wouldn't put any character in a LSG unit. In all my 8th game to date, I lost one full 20 lsg unit on turn 1, due to war machine shot (and failed panic test, when there were enough LSG to test).
Most people tend to shoot at other units such as the swordmasters or my big unit of spears. I'm also fortunate to not have any opponents, at least not regular ones, that use stone throwers or equivalents.

King_Pash
15-11-2010, 22:42
To be quite honest, I would prefer they'd shoot their S5 large template weaponry at my LSG bunker rather than my SM or WL units. That way if I take too many casualties I could just retreat out of range and deny points and wait for my bitty units to get stuck in and do the damage.

Kiras of the flame
16-11-2010, 06:51
White Lions seem to be a good bodyguard unit (I meant they are the Royal guard in lore) for a prince or noble... stubborn with str6 attacks that Always strike first and a defense against ranged projectiles gives me the Idea that they can take a beating after they bring a world of pain which is perfect for a very flighty character.... Sword masters are good as well... but I want them to stem the tide instead....

Hashulaman
16-11-2010, 09:53
(I have quite a bit to ask do to my return to High elves)


I have used PG with Caradryan as a Bunker, which also housed my BSB. That was in 7th though. My only 8th game with HE I put teclis in a 50 man LSG unit with BSB and he did not take a single wound. That was probably due to luck I think, should I keep using PG as a Archmage bunker? Or be more pro-active and get them into combat as an anvil to the hammers that are swodmasters, Chariots, or whatever seems to be a suitable flanking units (even Dragon Princes maybe, I'm not worrited about Ngating ranks since it wont affect Steadfast and I am confident in doing more than 3 wounds in Close combat.

If PG are not the war to go anvil wise I have a great deal of Spearmen now that can be Sea guard for friendly games, I plan to experiment If a Spearmen block with Sea guard on the flanks or vice versa. The prospect of Chariots on either end of the Big block seems tempting too. Im sure a mix can be healthy. I dont know how Swordmasters would hold up even if they did flank. Against things like Skaven slaves that fight would be in the rats' favor as I cannot grind them down that good unless I hex the hell out of them Withering on them or Flesh to stone on me. I think the skaven player would be more willing to dispel Flesh to stone as Hexing slaves would do little. So many of them all those attacks wounding on 2's would not put as much a dent into them

What Builds do you use for your Mages/Archmages(How many you use, what gear and lores you take) and Nobles/Princes, specificly the BSB out of the latter 2. Armor of Caledor seems nice but Ive always gone for the a ward save as it seems easier to negate that nice 1+. I have though of a Mounted Noble with GW and some good Magic items to accompany Dragon Princes. I would be more interested in what to give Lord/Hero mages and BSB.


What Special characters are good, mainly for friendly games. I know taking Teclis for torunaments is a no brainer, but that is a good way to get your meta pissed at you. I'm leaning to Caradryan and Korhil. They are my favorite of the new Characters. I even would like to use Elhtarion in Friendly games. I love his fluff and I think he makes a decent battlemage. Plus Id like to try a Griffon, Dragons are too much of a point sink and Eltharion's Griffon is better than regular ones though I dont know how much. Korhil I want to put in a Lion Chariot because I've never done it before, add extra punch to a Chariot's punch. Caradryan in PG is the best tactic so far, though I'm pretty sure he has been used in other units, it's not like he needs PG, they need him. He is excellent in Challenges, able to kill some of the best Challenge characters before a They can land a blow, he just needs to wound most characters once, they fail their armor/ward save and a roll of a 5 or 6 kills them.

Wyrmnax
16-11-2010, 12:38
Lv4 usually get tacked on Phoenix Guard bunker. Hardest unit we have, and the ward save give them some protection in case the mage goes boom.

Lv2s get tacked onto LGS or Spears. BSB probably does too.

Trains_Get_Robbed
17-11-2010, 07:59
^^^ Seconded. However, if your A.M has a certain setup (aka. I can't be killed other than by SKaven magic artillery, Demons or Dryads) then I would run him in S.M as his point is to just spam the regen and toughness spells trying to boost the unit not only into an effective hammer, but enough of a wall so that when the S.M get hit back they take casualities only in moderation.

cptcosmic
17-11-2010, 14:37
an interesting idea I found in a german forum:

LvL 2 with Seerstaff
LvL 4 with whatever you like
both take high magic

According to the rulebook, you could take Flames of Phoenix spell twice because the LvL 2 can choose his spells without rolling.

On average (with banner of sorcery) you should have enough power dice for 2 Flames of Phoenix and 2 Shield of Saphery spells. If you succeed, you not only damage big units alot, but you weaken the enemy magic phase if they attempt to dispel. With the Shield you make your units harder to kill of course.

dont know if this might be worth the investment, but it might compensate for the fact that HE dont have any good war machines that can murder bigger units.

Pulstar
17-11-2010, 15:03
an interesting idea I found in a german forum:

LvL 2 with Seerstaff
LvL 4 with whatever you like
both take high magic



And with two drain magic spells, all of his spells cast at +6.

King_Pash
17-11-2010, 22:47
Humm, I'm not sure you could do that. I seemed to assume that you can only have each spell once in your army unless it was the signature spell or you had a specific special rule (like Vamps do). Im not sure it's a viable tactic :/

Tarian
18-11-2010, 00:14
It's completely viable, as you only can't have the same spells if you roll for them. Choosing and Loremaster type abilities bypass the doubling up rule.

CatShark
19-11-2010, 04:52
Yer, the army book states all mages using high magic automatically know drain magic.

Hashulaman
19-11-2010, 10:24
Yea, for higher points games add teclis and all 3 take High magic and have a party watching Dark Elves, Perhaps Slaan and Tzeentch Sorcerers get Frustrated if they have to get an additional +9 penalty to cast. I don't know how Drain magic works on Bound spells since you roll to cast now. If the Drain Magic is added to that Warriors priests/Arch lectors could be screwed.

King_Pash
19-11-2010, 14:04
As per the new HE FAQ, Drain Magic does not effect bound or RiP spells :/

Kiras of the flame
19-11-2010, 16:29
Drain magic is still useful to screw up people's magic

Tarian
19-11-2010, 18:02
Especially when messing with Invo and other frequent cast spells.

Hashulaman
19-11-2010, 23:19
As per the new HE FAQ, Drain Magic does not effect bound or RiP spells :/

You dont have to worry about RiP if it can't be cast in the first place. The RiP is for dispelling it in following rounds, not the turn its cast.

King_Pash
19-11-2010, 23:47
You dont have to worry about RiP if it can't be cast in the first place. The RiP is for dispelling it in following rounds, not the turn its cast.

True, but you're giving up on average 2 of your PD in order for him to give up 1 of his. Hardly seems worth it :/

Tarian
20-11-2010, 04:42
It's one per casting, King_Pash. If your opponent is only casting one mega spell, not really worth it. If the have a lot of support spells, however...

King_Pash
20-11-2010, 09:02
True, I suppose. It would really screw with VC's but would likely not be that amazing against Skaven or WoC. Depends on their tactics but I would say Drain Magic is quite a situational spell. I mean, it can't even be used against Dwarves! I like spells I can use in every battle :)

Pulstar
20-11-2010, 14:21
Also, after you cast your first drain magic the second cast at 10+. If two are in play then it's 13+ for the third...

Tarian
20-11-2010, 23:55
Yes, but if you take High Magic, which is a solid lore on its own, it comes for free, so no problems there.

King_Pash
21-11-2010, 14:32
Here's a new topic: i'm considering fielding a Chicken Noble to take care of warmachines, small expensive units, combat support and general hassle for my opponent. What do you think is the most optimal way of fielding one?

Hashulaman
21-11-2010, 16:29
Nothing expensive, Some decent armor or a cheap ward save item and a great weapon. You have a good chance of wiping out most war machine crews. I'm assuming Chicken is Great Eagle, I never use the things myself. I'd use a Griffon before a Great Eagle.

King_Pash
21-11-2010, 17:14
Nothing expensive, Some decent armor or a cheap ward save item and a great weapon. You have a good chance of wiping out most war machine crews. I'm assuming Chicken is Great Eagle, I never use the things myself. I'd use a Griffon before a Great Eagle.

Yeah, the Chicken is the Great Eagle mount. The reason I choose him over a greater beast is that he adds an additional wound to our Noble and he isn't too expensive.

Great weapon and ward is pretty good. I just think he can offer so much more potential than that though. For example, here are a few loadouts i'm considering:

Option 1-Dragon Armour, Great Weapon, Shield of Ptolos (1+ Armour Save against Shooting!), Guardian Phoenix. 199pt
Option 2-Dragon Armour, Charmed Shield, Star Lance, Great Weapon. 194pt
Option 3-Dragon Armour, Charmed Shield, Radiant Gem of Hoeth, Great Weapon. 199pt

Option 1 - Great all-rounder. Takes away the optimal Guardian Phoenix off your BSB but means he can survive pretty much all small-arms fire and the odd cannon shot. Good against warmachines, weapon teams, general support.

Option 2 - The sole-character killer. He'll take down a lot of characters in close combat. No ward means he can't deal with much shooting or prolonged combat so he's really a true glass cannon (aren't they all..). Still, he can hit hard the first round, drop the lance and take up the Great Weapon to finish off whatever he's fighting. Good against sneaky solo characters (Solo-Slann, WoC Mage on disk etc.) as well as warmachines (a bit overkill!) and the usual riff-raff.

Option 3 - The Knight Mage. This one is more of a mobile character sniper as well as a warmachine slayer. Take the usual Death (Spirit Leech) and he can position himself in the optimal position to snipe away every turn (and with LD9 ain't too bad at it). Lack of good save means he will be vulnerable so I would suggest being careful with him around a lot of shooting. Good against character (mage) sniping, warmachine etc.

So, thoughts?

ScytheSwathe
21-11-2010, 19:23
The main trouble with a character on a mount like that is he can no longer wizard hunt, anyone with any sense will issue a challenge with someone else to keep the wizard safe, then win on combat res regardless of whether you can kill their character or not.
Theres no protection for a wizard agaisnt a lone eagle or 2.

Steadfast and 10" move unless marching killed cheaper characters on flying mounts. You cant kill much in combat, and you cant move at any speed and shoot.

Trains_Get_Robbed
22-11-2010, 00:34
Huh?

Chicken nobles are great! To say that they can't fight in combat and aren't useful is quite ignorant. If you have a chicken noble, they are a slew of tactics that can be used. However, the main 2 questions that have to be asked is: is he going to be a bsb and or is he warmachine hunting or assainating/combat msu support.

I always leave aoc for bsb so: aoc, g.p and great weapon, is the best bsb setup.

Non-bsb: som, d.a, shield, tekagamdors gaunlets.

Ii like to runmy chicken nobles in squads. If I have a c.n then he will be accomapnied by another chciken for the cover save and combat prowness.

If not assinating then just by himself.

Hashulaman
22-11-2010, 06:37
I was looking at the HE book, and noticed Eltharion is actually pretty good and seems cheap for what he does. You think he is worth trying?

Desert Rain
22-11-2010, 10:40
The Reaver Bow might be useful on a Chicken Noble as well, giving him some good shooting to harass smaller enemy units and war machines before charging in. It makes him rather vulnerable though.

Double_Trouble
22-11-2010, 13:04
Hello everyone, I'm pretty new to Warhammer world, so even though I read, that some of the veterans are not too happy about lists coming up in this thread, not being able to offer some kind of great tactical insight yet, I still have to ask for advice on my list, which I was hoping could possibly compete in an upcoming 2500 pts tourney.

So basically, I'll start out saying, that special characters will be allowed, which basically means, not taking Teclis for a new player who is still making many mistakes in a game, would be plain stupid.
So, the list I thought of would be
Teclis with lore of metal;
Mage lvl 2 with seerstaff of saphery, high(shadow?) magic;
Noble - BSB, Armour of Caledor, Dawnstone, GW;

3x20 Spearmen - Full Com (one with banner of eternal flame)
White lions 19 - Standard, Champion (Banner of Sorcery, Amulet of Light)
Phoenix Guard 17 - Full Com (Razor Standard, Gem of Courage)
Lion Chariot
Sword Masters 6 Champion, Standard
Great Eagles x 2

So, the idea behind this would be something like this: Deployment:
-------------SSSSS
-------------SSSSS
------PPPPB--SSSSS--wwwww
LCH--PPPPP--SSSSS--wwwww--SMSM
------PPPPP----------wwwww
------PPP----SSSMT---wwww
--------------SSSSS
--------------SSSSS
--------------SSSSS

--------------SSSSS

So here's my thinking, as you can see, Teclis, and the other mage being in the middle, should be quite protected from all sides. Teclis casting improved glittering robe, with IF most of the time, gives all those elves a 3+ armour save, which i think is quite good and also protects quite well against some war machines or shooting. Facing armoured foes, lore of metal is obv, really good. Facing hordes, armour saves, ASF with rerolls should help win most combats, and lvl 2 casting Flames of the Phoenix, should do the trick also. Against most monsters, WLs + shield of saphery FTW, i think. Since I'm pretty new to the game I'm wondering if I'm missing something cause I'm not that familiar with most of the races yet.
And one more question would be: Maybe lvl 2 should go with shadow and take enfeebling foe + mindrazor for possibly better control of the battle in the crucial moments?

ScytheSwathe
22-11-2010, 18:29
Im not saying that there arent tactics for your hero on eagle, just that it can achieve less than an eagle on its own

Hashulaman
22-11-2010, 22:56
Thats an interesting fomation, I don't know why there are spearmen behind the Teclis unit. One thing about Teclis to remember is that you don't always have to take Lore of Metal, he picks his lore before the battle. So you can choose whatever lore that hurts your enemy the most when you find out who you are facing.

Double_Trouble
22-11-2010, 23:36
Well basically what I noticed is if Teclis moves at least a bit forward with a unit, most opponents tend to try and send one fast unit to charge from the back, so this unit could be sort of protection, or if nothing comes that way, it could move forward next to other units. Not really sure if it's efficient but hopefully it will work out.
As for choosing the lore before every battle, I know that there are discussions whether Teclis is allowed to do this or not but in our group most don't agree with this and I dont tend to argue since this would totally make Teclis overpowered. He is a monster as he is already.

Chiungalla
23-11-2010, 07:36
Im not saying that there arent tactics for your hero on eagle, just that it can achieve less than an eagle on its own

I strongly disagree.

A single eagle vs. a warmachine is always a gamble, with a hero on top, it's not any more.

And a single eagle is very unlikely to kill a wizard in one turn. He needs to hit and wound with both his attacks, even against a level 2 wizard... thats a chance of 19 percent for a weaponskill 4- toughness 3 model.

But after all I agree, that the eagles are better off without a character, because of the price. You get 4 (!!!) eagles without character for the same points then one with.

Francis
23-11-2010, 09:27
@Double_trouble. That is a very interesting idea you have there, it might even work. Now for my part I would always place Teclis in the Phoenix Guard if I had a choice, since he will be instrumental to any army he is part of and PG offers him the best protection possible.

Also have you thought of what the SMs are meant to achieve? Because a unit of 6 is very vulnerable and people usually try to shoot up the SMs first. I love SMs myself and would never leave home without them but I usually field them 14 strong so they can take at least some punishment.

As for your deployment, putting all of your spears in column formation is begging your enemy to either shoot them up with cannons and warplightning cannons, letting them get murdered by Burning Head and Penumbral Pendulum or simply disappear after a successful powered up Purple Sun (I know that is unlikely with I5 but you’ll still loose an average of 20 spears from such a spell).

Besides that I think it is pretty well accepted by now that Teclis chooses his spells, despite what the OP screamers may whine. If you want you could always check with the tournament organizers.

I have posted my favourite Hoplite tactic earlier but this is how I would deploy your army:


---------------------------------------------SMs-WLC
-----------------------------------------WLs
------------------------------PG--Spears
------------------------Spears
------------------Spears

Teclis with the PG, BSB in the second spear regiment from the left and the lvl 2 mage there too. Eagles in a kind of reserve and on warmachine hunting duty. If you are going to use Seerstaff (which is very good) you might consider taking shadow or life on your lvl 2, since high magic don’t really need the Seerstaff, Drain Magic and Shield are default spells and all others is just a bonus in my mind (unless you really want to use Flames of the Phoenix). Teclis uses whatever you like, but Metal would not be my first choice, I'll be boring and tell you Life and Shadow is, also High is great on Teclis in my mind.

Well that wraps up my take on it. Good Luck.

Hashulaman
23-11-2010, 10:02
I cant decide what unit to put in the middle, a Massive Phalanx of Spearmen or a block of Phoenix Guard. I have 2 lion chariots now as well, so would they be on the immediate flank of whatever unit I put in the middle and SM's on the extreme flank? Or is the opposite a better idea? I'm also wondering what to take for shooting, Bolt Throwers or Sea Guard.

King_Pash
23-11-2010, 11:47
I cant decide what unit to put in the middle, a Massive Phalanx of Spearmen or a block of Phoenix Guard. I have 2 lion chariots now as well, so would they be on the immediate flank of whatever unit I put in the middle and SM's on the extreme flank? Or is the opposite a better idea? I'm also wondering what to take for shooting, Bolt Throwers or Sea Guard.

Erm, neither. Take Archers. Cheaper, longer range, and more likely live out a game.

Wyrmnax
23-11-2010, 12:28
Erm, neither. Take Archers. Cheaper, longer range, and more likely live out a game.

Please dont take archers. Hardly any reason in this edition. Pay the extra point and bring seaguard instead.Exactly the same shooting as bowmen AND they are twice as effective in CC.

Reimu
23-11-2010, 13:15
Don't Archers have higher range by 12"? In WHFB, 12" is a long distance where most infantry units charge 8", making them considerably more effective at a safer distance. This also means they can outshoot most other missile units by sitting a good distance outside their range. It also means they can start to force Panic tests earlier, softening up enemy forces for your own Combat phase.

King_Pash
23-11-2010, 13:47
Ok, here is a short rundown of our Core units and their benefits.

Spearmen
Spears are our cheapest Eleven model and therefore is the best for when you need numbers in a fight. With WS4 and I5 it means that against anything short of very elite fighters, you'll be hitting with around 75% of your attacks. S3 is pretty standard so it's great against any other T3, low armour infantry.

Pros
Large unit numbers, horde (if you wish), large number of basic attacks, Mindrazor Spam, static combat res, can also get ok-ish banners.

Cons
Not as cheap as other armies' basic infantry so don't try to outnumber them, still T3 5+ save Elf, S3 doesn't do well against higher toughness or good armour.

Archers
Our standard shooting unit. A bit overpriced for a S3 shot but can usually fight off light cav and other harassers. BS4 and 30" range means that when well placed, they'll be able to reach almost any unit on the board.

Best For
Small to medium-seized units (10-15), can be armoured (not necessary IMHO), can fight off light attacks, long range, cost-effective (if used properly).

Cons
Light armour or no armour at best (can get shot down quickly if concentrated on), at 11pts still quite expensive for a S3 shot with a debatably-useful special rule, isn't effective against anything with good armour or decent toughness.

Lothern Sea Guard
A jack of all, great at nothing unit. It's best (and worst) of both Archer and Spearmen. Very versatile unit but also just as fragile as any Elf. With all the attacks of Spearmen and only 6" less range than the humble Archer, they can perform a number of roles and survive a bit of light shooting.

Best For
Medium-sized units (15-ish), holding a banner, defending a Mage or Warmachine (if you still field these), moving and shooting, being a threat to small weak units (Gors, Skinks etc.).

Cons
At max 13pts each way too expensive, fairly weak and easy to lose in large numbers, medium-sized unit + light casualties = becomes less effective and very fragile, large-sized unit = point sink.

Hope that helps :D

Double_Trouble
23-11-2010, 14:16
Also have you thought of what the SMs are meant to achieve? Because a unit of 6 is very vulnerable and people usually try to shoot up the SMs first. I love SMs myself and would never leave home without them but I usually field them 14 strong so they can take at least some punishment.


Well basically, SMs are for sort of flanking as LCH is. If the enemy fires at them, oh well.. However, hopefully he will be firing at eagles first, that is if he has warmachines :) And if SMs get shot it's not that big of a deal, since they are not that many points, whereas my other units will safely reach the enemy.
As for PG being a bunker for Teclis, I'm not sure if that's efficient to use one of my 2 bigger elite units simply for staying back. And being protected from all flanks, i think spearmen might be a good enough bunker. With 3+ (thanks to glittering robe) armour save, most throwers wont do as much damage as they'd like to, and cannons should mostly be able to do 1, sometimes max 2 rounds of shooting, as they'll either be charged by eagles on turn 2 or kill eagles and shoot on turn 2 and on turn 3 i'll be in close combat. Magical "cannons", can very well be dispelled by Teclis.
As for magic for Teclis, I've tried both life and shadow for Teclis already, and found shadow a bit more useful, but basically only thanks to mindrazor, which can change the whole gameflow with one successfull cast. However only depending on successfully casting it is not exactly how I'd like to play :). +T4 of life might be very nice, but since I have a pretty good chance of facing empire, Life just doesn't do it.. Facing a steam tank, cannons, and so on basically means I'm screwed :D
As for shadow for second mage, i think it might be more useful, than high magic, i could probably go with annulian crystal if i chose it?
As I said I'm pretty new to the game, though i did read a lot of strategy advices, but as we all now only practice makes perfect, so I might very well be missing something very important in my thought processes :)

Wyrmnax
23-11-2010, 15:13
Don't Archers have higher range by 12"? In WHFB, 12" is a long distance where most infantry units charge 8", making them considerably more effective at a safer distance. This also means they can outshoot most other missile units by sitting a good distance outside their range. It also means they can start to force Panic tests earlier, softening up enemy forces for your own Combat phase.

6" longer

WHile it can make a difference, in reality your own troops will be moving towards the enemy trying to get into CC as soon as possible. 6 extra " means very little when everything is engaged at the end of turn #2

cptcosmic
23-11-2010, 15:26
6" longer

WHile it can make a difference, in reality your own troops will be moving towards the enemy trying to get into CC as soon as possible. 6 extra " means very little when everything is engaged at the end of turn #2
and that means your expensive seaguard not only gets penalties for long range but also for moving in the first round. beside that, you cannot use salvo rule if moved and if you want to march then you cannot shoot either.

thus either you blow alot of points for a sea guard unit that can fight as well as spearelves (and practically kill nothing at range) or you take a smaller one for shooting that gets beaten in combat fast. considering those facts, spearelves + archer combination will always work out better in the end.

Chiungalla
23-11-2010, 17:32
Please dont take archers. Hardly any reason in this edition. Pay the extra point and bring seaguard instead.Exactly the same shooting as bowmen AND they are twice as effective in CC.

No.
There are reasons.
They do shoot better.

And I doubt the sea guard is twice as effective in close combat, because to achieve that, you need to field them 5*4 in which case only 3/4 of the unit shoot anyway. While you can field the archers in 2 units of 10 and have two targets the opponent has to deal with and better shooting.

On the other hand, if you field such a large block of seaguards, you can afford the same number of spear elves and a unit of 10 archers for the same points... which is way better.

DwD
28-11-2010, 17:39
Was curious how you guys handle Dark elf crossbows? They just freaking destroy so much... 2x multiple shots is like 60 shots a turn with -1 to armour save and our elite units only got a 5+ save to being with.. lol yeah that **** destroys me so bad

Tarian
28-11-2010, 17:56
Magic or Knights. I field a heavy Caledor list, and a Dragon + Dragon Lord don't really care a whole lot about S3 RxB fire, even if its AP.

Chiungalla
28-11-2010, 19:36
Longbows, Repeater Bolt Throwers, Eagles and Wizards.

DwD
28-11-2010, 20:00
Well they got repeater bolt throwers aswell so that equals it out. Longbows sure.. they are better in the first round when the Crossbows have to move into range but after that they destroy longbows easily. Eagles yeah sound good, if you can manage to get over there before you are dead :P

Chiungalla
28-11-2010, 20:29
Yes, they have RBT. But does that prevent you from shooting his crossbowmen with your RBTs? I don't think so. So they are still a viable option to kill crossbowmen.

Archers are good, too. You can force him to move at least two turns if he wants to shoot at you. In this turns his advantage against your longbows is zero. With the casulties from that turn in mind, he will most likely take most of the game to take out your archers, when it comes to a shootout.

Eagles. Yes, they may not arive. But they have 3 wounds with toughness 4 for 50 points. The same amount of repeater crossbow bolts that are needed to kill the eagle (9) hitting swordmasters will kill more points in swordmasters... And it's still possible to come from a flank with an eagle, forcing the dark elf at least to move to shoot at you.

enrgie
29-11-2010, 03:20
Bring along a smallish unit of Dragon Princes. Hits hard enough and moves fast enough. Go from the flanks to save yourself the Stand and Shoot but Dark Elves are a tough match-up for us. In fact, DE are good all rounded army wi their recent book.

enyoss
29-11-2010, 03:46
Thanks for the magic pointers guys. I had my second 8th edition game with my High Elves today (against Lizardmen) and coped much better with magic. A Level 4 with Staff of Solidity and Folariath's robe (now I can justify taking it, unlike in 7th) and a Level 2 with the Annullian crystal did very well. It felt a little weird deliberately nuking the Phoenix Guard my mage was in to make sure I got Okkam's Mindrazor off (i.e. rolling six dice and hoping for Irresistible Force and the inevitable fallout), but it worked anyway.

On a side note, has anyone else had great success with Swordmasters carrying the Razor Standard? I've used this in two games now and it works really well.

enrgie
29-11-2010, 09:56
It felt a little weird deliberately nuking the Phoenix Guard my mage was in to make sure I got Okkam's Mindrazor off (i.e. rolling six dice and hoping for Irresistible Force and the inevitable fallout), but it worked anyway.

On a side note, has anyone else had great success with Swordmasters carrying the Razor Standard? I've used this in two games now and it works really well.

What do you mean nuke? Just throwing 6 dice?

I use the Razor Standard on my Phoenix Guard. Str4 with -2 to Armour Save is brilliant! On the Swordmasters, it's kinda wasted since they are at Str7 (-3 to Armour Save). It's diminishing returns really.

DwD
29-11-2010, 10:07
Sword Masters with Razor standard just wreck ****. When you got like a unit of 18 and you hit around 16 hits. Make 12-14 wound depending what you are attacking and all of a sudden they can only try to parry save or not save at all just makes you win the combat instantly.

wilsongrahams
29-11-2010, 16:19
I tend not to put anything special with my swordmasters because they attract so much attention that it's a gamble doing so. Sure, they do reap havoc when I get them into combat, but even though I use 21 or 24 models in the unit they have been wiped out by meagre to average levels of missile fire in several games. For this reason I usually stick to a Magical Attacks gem on the bladelord and keep a basic banner, leaving units suc as phoenix guard and white lions that could do with extra kills per turn to use fancy banners.

Sure, if you have plenty of free points it's worthwhile, but go with your own heart on how your usual opponents react to seeing swordmasters deployed on the table. My opponents may as well paint a target over them and ignore other units (even 10 strong dragon princes unit). Like so many tactics, it depends on the situation it is used in as to whether it is effective or not.

Treadhead_1st
29-11-2010, 18:42
I tend not to put anything special with my swordmasters because they attract so much attention that it's a gamble doing so. Sure, they do reap havoc when I get them into combat, but even though I use 21 or 24 models in the unit they have been wiped out by meagre to average levels of missile fire in several games. For this reason I usually stick to a Magical Attacks gem on the bladelord and keep a basic banner, leaving units suc as phoenix guard and white lions that could do with extra kills per turn to use fancy banners.

Sure, if you have plenty of free points it's worthwhile, but go with your own heart on how your usual opponents react to seeing swordmasters deployed on the table. My opponents may as well paint a target over them and ignore other units (even 10 strong dragon princes unit). Like so many tactics, it depends on the situation it is used in as to whether it is effective or not.

Ah, I do the complete reverse - a small unit (5-10 men) with the army BSB sitting in it and a Bladelord- mind you, I tend to hide this unit out of LOS behind the Spearmen blocks that make up my battle-line thus avoiding most missile fire (units on hills are a target priority, obviously).

I have found that this set-up keeps the BSB out of front-line combat (where he dies scarily easy despite a 2+/5++ save) but still allows the banner to affect my main force, and gives me a unit to counter-charge anything that engages my Spearmen in the flank, or breaks through the unit (the Swordmasters put out so many hits that, after a mauling from the Speamen, most enemy units break and flee themselves, leaving the BSB alive).

A bit expensive for 2000 point games, so I tend to reserve it for 2500 (and often the BSB as well, though there are a few times I have regretted not having one in 2000 points!).

On that note, I was perusing White Dwarf 371 and noticed Adam Troke's High Elf army that he presents as having been quite successful. I am wondering what the community think of it, since it has only a Lvl2 Magic Caster and no BSB at 2500 points? Mainly because I am wondering if I can get away with a Lvl2 and no BSB in 2000 points (or the BSB but no Magic) since things are getting extremely tight in my own army list!

enyoss
29-11-2010, 19:32
What do you mean nuke? Just throwing 6 dice?


Throwing six dice and counting on getting Irresistible Force, and then fully expecting a S10 template to wipe out lots of his own unit members (I was losing around 4-7 Phoenix Guard per Loss of Control).



I use the Razor Standard on my Phoenix Guard. Str4 with -2 to Armour Save is brilliant! On the Swordmasters, it's kinda wasted since they are at Str7 (-3 to Armour Save). It's diminishing returns really.

Swordmasters are only S5, so it's not that much of a waste (still -3 to the save though). I was playing against Lizardmen so it meant that my opponent's saurus had no save whatsoever. I found it was quite handy as I had to kill as many as I could to reduce attacks back from three ranks of spear-wielding saurus. It also helps enormously in that removing a save completely negates the effect of spells allowing re-rolls of 1's to save and the like (which my opponent had plenty of). Still, I plan on using this standard with Phoenix Guard in the future, although I like them to carry the Banner of Arcane Protection a the moment.

King_Pash
30-11-2010, 13:07
Still, I plan on using this standard with Phoenix Guard in the future, although I like them to carry the Banner of Arcane Protection a the moment.

Really? I found that due to the PG's ward save, few people target them with damage spells. Usually that's reserved for my SM or WL. PG usually get the "no save allowed" or hexes cast on them :/

Hashulaman
30-11-2010, 23:15
A PG bunker with Caradryan and sorcerery banner seems to be a must now to protect Characters. I take that whenever I can, but BSB in there and use him or Caradryan to protect any mages in there.

Reimu
01-12-2010, 00:02
Protect characters by getting them stuck into combat. Because of their huge Initiative and ASF, Princes get re-rolls to hit against even the likes of Chaos Lords, meaning that you're probably going to land all your attacks almost every round of combat. That's an absolutely devastating contribution to combat if you give him a good magic weapon; the recent addition of a +3S weapon for anyone who pays the points strikes me as completely goddamn awesome.

On the topic of ball-breakingly awesome, how do we feel about Dragons lately? With the addition of in-combat breath attacks and monstrous stomp, even the relatively-humble Sun Dragon is now capable of ridiculous amounts of carnage. Not to mention Star Dragons -- an ultimate total of 7+3D6 attacks. Woah!

King_Pash
01-12-2010, 00:25
[/I].

On the topic of ball-breakingly awesome, how do we feel about Dragons lately? With the addition of in-combat breath attacks and monstrous stomp, even the relatively-humble Sun Dragon is now capable of ridiculous amounts of carnage. Not to mention Star Dragons -- an ultimate total of 7+3D6 attacks. Woah!

They're completely and utterly awesome.. until you meet a 10pt Unit champion who takes the 3/4 wounds the Prince deals to him leaving your Dragon standing around munching grass.

It's a tough tool to use and you can't be reckless with it because once you lose it you generally lose the game.

Reimu
01-12-2010, 04:34
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the Dragon count as being in any challenges as well? So the Dragon would be immune to the attacks of the regiment until the next round of combat.

Trains_Get_Robbed
01-12-2010, 05:28
No, because once you kill the champion the challnege is over, and this the unit has free reign on the dragon. However, if you were to rear charge or flank charge with that 20in' movement then thats another story.

Trains_Get_Robbed
01-12-2010, 05:46
Double Post for the win???

I disagree whole-heartdley on the LSG brought up a couple pages ago. I take 26 with BoEF and run them 11 wide until the enemy gets a turn away, reform and now they are good to go and even get a stand and shoot. If I run a M.G Tommy Lvl 2 he also goes in there and either runs (life or High magic depending on what the lvl 4's got).

I tend to hardly run Teclis, because I just don't (don't ask why, I don't really know the reason why, probably because every other H.E player does and if I'm going to keep my identity then I my as well run something different and multi-purpose). I instead have 4-5 blocks of troops at 2,500 and 3,000 and 4 charcters. By shoving my main 2 combat blocks (W.L/P.G and S.M) down the enemies throat, they don't really ever get the chance to target my LSG and thus, to this day I have yet to lose a unit of LSG.

Core and charcter selection (in regards to the dragon) is personal playstyle and tactical mindset. Although, I think irs fair to say that Archers at 11 points a model are extremely over-priced when compared to D.E RxB and lack ablities when compared to G.G.

EnternalVoid
01-12-2010, 07:38
No, because once you kill the champion the challnege is over, and this the unit has free reign on the dragon. However, if you were to rear charge or flank charge with that 20in' movement then thats another story.

Actually no you can't. On page 102 under "fighting a challenge" it says that they *ie those in the challenge* can't be attacked by any model for that round of close combat. So if the rider kills the model in the challenge, the unit can't attack the dragon as it was part of the challenge.

Mind you that you will still not likely beat their combat res with just the rider's attacks but aleast you are not being attacked and hopefully next turn if you are still there you can lay into them with everything you have.

I am thinking some method of sniping for unit champions will help the prince riding a dragon. Maybe a death magic mage or something to try and pick off those a unit champ right before the dragon and rider hits the unit.

smithers
01-12-2010, 07:55
Actually no you can't. On page 102 under "fighting a challenge" it says that they *ie those in the challenge* can't be attacked by any model for that round of close combat. So if the rider kills the model in the challenge, the unit can't attack the dragon as it was part of the challenge.

Mind you that you will still not likely beat their combat res with just the rider's attacks but aleast you are not being attacked and hopefully next turn if you are still there you can lay into them with everything you have.

I am thinking some method of sniping for unit champions will help the prince riding a dragon. Maybe a death magic mage or something to try and pick off those a unit champ right before the dragon and rider hits the unit.

Thanks for correcting this.
Also, even if your hero wins the challenge your dragon can kick em while he's down; attacks and thunderstomp for massive overkill (capped at 5 ya?) but even one rank of course means steadfast harrumph!

Eh, just noticed a couple other misleading bits in that post. Dragon's only have 6" movement for charge; also, charging the rear or flank won't protect you from challenges.

EnternalVoid
01-12-2010, 10:34
Thanks for correcting this.
Also, even if your hero wins the challenge your dragon can kick em while he's down; attacks and thunderstomp for massive overkill (capped at 5 ya?) but even one rank of course means steadfast harrumph!

Eh, just noticed a couple other misleading bits in that post. Dragon's only have 6" movement for charge; also, charging the rear or flank won't protect you from challenges.

Sadly that is wrong. If the rider kills the model in their challenge, the Dragon can't beat his dead body anymore. It is in the same section as the challenge, Page 102 or so. Basically it says that if a model and its mount strike at different times, then any additional attacks are lost if it kills the enemy. So if the Rider kills the champion, the Dragon can't hit the model or thunderstomp it. So while the unit can't attack the dragon, the dragon can't insure the combat res for you.

Dragons can use their flight movement of 10", plus they have 3d6 dropping the lowest for their charge distance. The reason you will want to try and get rear or flank attacks is for the extra point or two of combat res for the first turn, to better insure you don't break if all possible. Also if they turn to face they might expose some other side to the rest of your army.

Prince Sairion
01-12-2010, 17:08
The dragon is a viable option so long as 'it' and the prince aren't the only ones in combat if you choose to go up against a unit with a champion.

My solution to this in a tournament recently was to take a hero on eagle who would charge into the same unit as the dragon and either issue/accept the challenge on behalf of the prince, allowing for much thunder stomping. The two of them combined took on everything I threw them at and it meant I only ever lost the eagle rider, not the prince, for the whole game.

sysy16
01-12-2010, 22:07
This all seems like a totally clever but ultimatley sneaky trick.

What would happen if the hero on the dragon refused the challenge by a unit champion?

He can hardly go to the back.....

Reimu
01-12-2010, 23:32
Well, I think he has to accept since there's nowhere to escape to. Unless I've missed something.

And as for the whole discussion, yeah, my intention never was to just run the Dragon into combat straight-on; I'd rather spend the first couple of turns bypassing charge arcs, using breath attacks and basically putting it in a position where it can cherrypick elements from the enemy army to attack. A Prince with Amour of Caledor, Vambraces of Defense and a great weapon on a Sun Dragon is pretty much a match for anyone in the 2000 pts range between ASF re-roll to hit attacks and the extra 3D6 attacks generated by the Dragon.

For most delicious results, frontal charge with Dragon Princes with a rear charge from the Dragon.

Hashulaman
02-12-2010, 02:18
Yea but is anyone going to run that much of a point sink in 8th? I'd be surprised if you could fit all that in a 2000 point list. Isn't a moon Dragon sufficient or even a Sun Dragon in lower points games?

enyoss
02-12-2010, 02:28
This all seems like a totally clever but ultimatley sneaky trick.


Challenges have been the accepted sneaky way of dealing with tough characters on monsters as far back as 4th edition.

In his post-battle comments in the White Dwarf 172 battle report (Revenge of the Doomlord, Dieter Helsnitch vs Empire/Kislev), the Empire player explicitly points out his mistake in not challenging Dieter (on his Manticore) with a White Wolf champion to deny him combat resolution. So sneaky challenges with lowly champions have been around since the early 90's at least. Let the little man have his day I say :).

Also, I'm pretty sure this wasting of a mount's attacks isn't new, and has actually been resurrected from 4th/5th, and maybe even 6th. At least, my group didn't even notice it had changed until about 2 years ago, so it was more or less expected that your mount lost their attacks if your character killed the champion first.

kyussinchains
02-12-2010, 13:05
Challenges have been the accepted sneaky way of dealing with tough characters on monsters as far back as 4th edition.

In his post-battle comments in the White Dwarf 172 battle report (Revenge of the Doomlord, Dieter Helsnitch vs Empire/Kislev), the Empire player explicitly points out his mistake in not challenging Dieter (on his Manticore) with a White Wolf champion to deny him combat resolution. So sneaky challenges with lowly champions have been around since the early 90's at least. Let the little man have his day I say :).

actually it was issue 174 dear boy..... ;)

enyoss
02-12-2010, 16:02
actually it was issue 174 dear boy..... ;)

Ok, I'm guessing 172 was the bloodbowl cover with High Elves vs Skaven in the battle report then ;)

Prince Sairion
02-12-2010, 17:30
The ONLY point of taking a dragon is to ram it straight into combat. The key is picking the right ones first and saving the harder ones till last. Regarding my tactic with the eagle rider, I got 2nd in a tournament with that combo, so it definitely works!

The points were 2250 and 'Button' my moon dragon and 'Evil Kn'eagle' could not have fought seperately imo. Charging a dragon headlong into a unit with a champion is asking for trouble without backup. Charging a dragon into everything that doesn't have a unit champ first is worth doing, but eventually you will need that backup when engaging large units.

The breath attack works far better in combat for breaking a unit that it does flying around and flaming a unit from a distance, one use only wonder-weapon!

King_Pash
02-12-2010, 20:22
The ONLY point of taking a dragon is to ram it straight into combat. The key is picking the right ones first and saving the harder ones till last. Regarding my tactic with the eagle rider, I got 2nd in a tournament with that combo, so it definitely works!

The points were 2250 and 'Button' my moon dragon and 'Evil Kn'eagle' could not have fought seperately imo. Charging a dragon headlong into a unit with a champion is asking for trouble without backup. Charging a dragon into everything that doesn't have a unit champ first is worth doing, but eventually you will need that backup when engaging large units.

The breath attack works far better in combat for breaking a unit that it does flying around and flaming a unit from a distance, one use only wonder-weapon!

Was the Moon Dragon option simply to fit it into the points or was there more of a tactical choice for this option?

smithers
02-12-2010, 22:02
Sadly that is wrong. If the rider kills the model in their challenge, the Dragon can't beat his dead body anymore. It is in the same section as the challenge, Page 102 or so. Basically it says that if a model and its mount strike at different times, then any additional attacks are lost if it kills the enemy. So if the Rider kills the champion, the Dragon can't hit the model or thunderstomp it. So while the unit can't attack the dragon, the dragon can't insure the combat res for you.

Dragons can use their flight movement of 10", plus they have 3d6 dropping the lowest for their charge distance. The reason you will want to try and get rear or flank attacks is for the extra point or two of combat res for the first turn, to better insure you don't break if all possible. Also if they turn to face they might expose some other side to the rest of your army.

Thanks for straightening me out. Was thinking of flee/pursue rules.

I've just started painting up some HE and have never fielded a flying monster or any monster mount.

However, I am dying to play a list with TWO dragons; Level 4 with life or shadow and a fire dragon mage. I know this is not competitive and any army with cannons is going to blast them away, but it would be fun to model and different to see. Death lore would also be tempting to use the dragons as terror bombs and for deep sniping.

Shadow would be fun for maneuvering them around (steed and lore ability) but life probably much better for healing and buffs. (I know regrowth won't work but the lore ability would be sweet for dual dragons)

With 4+ and 5+ wards they have a chance at sticking around.

Would be interested to hear anyone's experience playing dragon-mounted mages. Again, I *know* this is not competitive, but think it could be a ton of fun as long as there are no cannons lol.

Reimu
02-12-2010, 23:08
For whatever my word's worth, that sound like a lot of fun at the very least. You'll have to make some interesting tactical calls, but there's a lot of power at your disposal there. You'll just have to make sure to get out of those charge arcs and lines of sight.

I'm loving the Lore of Death option myself. Sniping out characters and unleashing fiery, breathy hell on enemy ranks sounds like a lot of fun, and you can still charge right into units not meant for hand-to-hand combat, like archers and fast cavalry. And this is one situation where making challenges towards unit Champions actually works to your advantage; your wizards won't do diddly poop, probably, but the Dragons will tear 'em apart, grill the corpse and stomp all over the remains for the best overkill bonus possible.

EDIT:

So. Cascading Fire Cloak. 2D6 S4 hits on any enemy unit in base contact at the end of the magic phase. You thinkin' what I'm thinkin'?

Dragon Mage
Seerstaff of Saphery
Screw level 2

Cast Cascading Fire Cloak and just launch into an enemy unit, challenging the Champion. 2D6 S4 hits, 2D6 S2 hits, the Dragon's normal attacks and then D6 thunderstomp hits. So we're looking at 5D6 automatic hits plus the Dragon's attacks. Of course, there are other configurations...

Prince
Radient Gem of Hoeth
Seerstaff of Saphery
Guardian Phoenix
Dragon Armour (I hope he can cast through it.)
Shield
Lance
Dragon of your choice

3+/5++ save, which isn't too shabby, but now we have the option of taking better Dragons as well as having the Prince himself be a formidable fighter.

What we're basically dealing with here is arcane flaming Draconic missiles and I am overjoyed that I can use that phrase unironically. Warhammer, i love you.

Prince Sairion
03-12-2010, 22:10
King_Pash: Definitely only to fit into the 2250 points allowance! Otherwise a star would have come along instead.

The eagle rider got shot at lots, but has shield of ptolos.

@ Reimu: Don't waste your time with dragonmages unless you are wanting a fluffy list, imo any tactic that relies on a t3 w2 character on a bullet-magnet isn't the best option, think of how many swordmasters you can get for his points cost!!!

smithers
03-12-2010, 23:49
Yeah, I was thinking about trying to get that AND shield of thorns on either a dragon or a chariot and just launching it like a missile :P

Also thought about giving the Dragon Mage the sword of anti-heroes and potion of foolhardiness.

Gives him a decent chance of taking out a hero level char in a challenge with 4 str 4 attacks w' first and reroll. Could go to something like 6 Str 6 attacks if enough chars in contact.

Probably much better to give him the ward and let the dragon do the killing, but obviously I'm looking for some wacky fun combos :P

GenerationTerrorist
04-12-2010, 03:15
Hi all. Going to attempt a new couple of tricks with my HE soon. Wanting to try a Saphery/Hoeth type of list given the cheapish availability of the SM from the IoB set.

What would people's thoughts be regarding 2 units of 17 (FC) Swordmasters, with a basic/no-gear Lvl1 (High Magic) Mage in each? The Mage in each unit casting nothing but Shield each magic phase would give a nice little bit of protection before they do their usual damage in combat. Drain Magic access would also be a bonus.

These guys would go on the extreme flanks of any army, backed up by my usual (and so far, VERY reliable) centre-line of 23 PG (FC, Banner of Sorcery, Helm of Fortune) with Caradryan and Lvl4 (Life) Archmage (Folariath's Robe, Silver Wand, Talisman of Saphery) in a 5*5 formation, and a pair of units of 28 Sea Guard in 7*4 either side of the PG anvil.

I'm also willing to give my battery of 4 RBT's another chance with this sort of army, as I feel it is a far more defensive "Come and get us" list than either of the WL/LC (Chrace) or DP/SD-Prince (Caledor) armies I also run.

Yes, I am a glutton for regional-themed army lists!!!!

Cheers,
GT

Chiungalla
05-12-2010, 08:22
Since we most likely all agree that another "Seaguard or not"-discussion will not add anything useful I will not go into detail on that seaguard units.

But I would not take high magic because of the shields. Why not you ask? Because casting a magic missle at the opposing archers will reduce your casulties for the entire game, not just for one round.

A minor magic missle can easily kill three archers out of an unit of ten, and that will not only help you for this round.

Further more, a life wizard in an unit of phoenix guard, doesn't sound like the best solution. Because you can't use regeneration with phoenix guard.

I would use a death and a fire wizard instead of the two high magic wizards, and use white lions instead of the phoenix guard.

EnternalVoid
06-12-2010, 02:48
I would not sell Shield so short. IT is not just for bows and guns, it helps against warmachines and in combat as well. Getting hit by a unit of cheap fodder deep enough to take the intitial beating and then return the favor is one of SM's weaknesses. This helps keep the loses down for a little longer so they can hopefully get their job done. But I would make some considerations.

Early on in this thread someone already brought up taking a lv1 in a unit of swordmasters, though he was only taking one unit. He had the Sacred Incense and the Ironcurse Iron. So the unit of Swordmasters were -1 to hit with shooting, 6+ ward against warmachines, and then he was still debating about lore. With Beast he would need more dice to cast, but could give the Swordmasters S6 T4. High he could get Drain Magic and The Shield of Saphery. If you go Life you get earthblood for Regen and the ability to heal another model within 12" *such as a chariot, character, or eagle*. Heaven's signature spell can gimp one unit if you are only afraid of a single one.

A Lv4 with life and the Silverwand is not taking the lore for regen to protect the Phoenix guard. I am guessing his plan for his magic phase is likely one dice for each Lv1, then the rest for the Lv4 for either offense with lurker, or defense with Flesh to Stone. With 5 rolls for spells it is likely the Lv4 will have all the spells he wants, and occationally maybe have to miss one of the 3 spells he wants. If anything he takes the phoenix guard so that in the offchance he miscasts they take the hit far better than White Lions. The 4+ ward at least for me has minimized a few bad miscasts.

enrgie
06-12-2010, 04:36
Hi all. Going to attempt a new couple of tricks with my HE soon. Wanting to try a Saphery/Hoeth type of list given the cheapish availability of the SM from the IoB set.

What would people's thoughts be regarding 2 units of 17 (FC) Swordmasters, with a basic/no-gear Lvl1 (High Magic) Mage in each? The Mage in each unit casting nothing but Shield each magic phase would give a nice little bit of protection before they do their usual damage in combat. Drain Magic access would also be a bonus.

These guys would go on the extreme flanks of any army, backed up by my usual (and so far, VERY reliable) centre-line of 23 PG (FC, Banner of Sorcery, Helm of Fortune) with Caradryan and Lvl4 (Life) Archmage (Folariath's Robe, Silver Wand, Talisman of Saphery) in a 5*5 formation, and a pair of units of 28 Sea Guard in 7*4 either side of the PG anvil.

I'm also willing to give my battery of 4 RBT's another chance with this sort of army, as I feel it is a far more defensive "Come and get us" list than either of the WL/LC (Chrace) or DP/SD-Prince (Caledor) armies I also run.

Yes, I am a glutton for regional-themed army lists!!!!

Cheers,
GT

I actually tried a list yesterday with 2 units of 16 Swordmasters yesterday night. It being a 1500 game, I fielded a barebones army. Anything that the Swordmasters touched disintegrated. This is worth expanding in 2500 games with a solid Level 4 Archmage in a bunker of White Lions and BSB with Banner of the World Dragon.

On another note, I found the weakness of our army tend to be our Core - Spearmen are just too feeble. Against his horde of Slaves I just could not cut down enough rats to negate his Steadfast leaving me stuck in multiple turns of combat.

My question then: what do you guys do to fully utilise our often high cost Spearmen?

I have gone Spears rather than archers so I can take advantage of our ASF. Archers just do not benefit from this except when they get into combat which they would most likely perish.

Tarian
06-12-2010, 06:26
I field an Archmage and she usually has Mind Razor. Spears are scary again.

Chiungalla
06-12-2010, 07:05
I would not sell Shield so short. IT is not just for bows and guns, it helps against warmachines and in combat as well.

But it only ever helps one unit. So if you cast the shield, he will most likely shoot at something that is as vulnerable and as expensive as the swordmasters. You can't protect your entire army with the spell, and there will always be weak links. But in close combat it is good.

Casting the shield with 1 die is very much of a gamble, casting it with 2 dice isn't worth the effort.

Trains_Get_Robbed
06-12-2010, 08:19
Enternal Void:

Yes, your point though? The whole reason for a flank or rear charge on turn three instead of a headlong charge in the front on turn one is for the extra +1 or +2 C.R its going to get you, henceforth, buying you a turn of staying power. Your real killing dosen't start until the second combat phase. Thus, instead of losing a by 3 or 4, you only lose by 1 or 2 on that first turn. I'll take LD 8 (maybe rerol)l over LD 6 (maybe reroll) anyday, I don't know about you, but that is just me.

Not to mention, "Make Way" (Page 100) never states that champions can 'make way,' only that charcters can. However, on (Page 93) it says "champions and issue and accept challenges in the same way as charcters."

Therefore, my intital paragraph in this post still stands (was the orginal meaning behind flank/rear charge comment in orginal post a page ago) and your correction still stands correct.

enrgie
06-12-2010, 08:49
I field an Archmage and she usually has Mind Razor. Spears are scary again.

I have tried this too. With a unit of 25 at 2500 points, they can pack quite a punch but the often get decimated quickly by mortars and anything with the big pie template. Surprisingly, the other spell, The Withering is also effective at improving our Spearmen. It is also a less risky spell to cast.

enrgie
06-12-2010, 08:51
Enternal Void:

The whole reason for a flank or rear charge on turn three instead of a headlong charge in the front on turn one is for the extra +1 or +2 C.R its going to get you, henceforth, buying you a turn of staying power. Your real killing dosen't start until the second combat phase. Thus, instead of losing a by 3 or 4, you only lose by 7 or 8 on that first turn. I'll take LD 8 reroll over LD 6 reroll anyday, I don't know about you, but that is just me.

I'm keen to learn more about flanking. As we are quite outnumbered I find it hard to actually outflank my opponent without him having some sort of counter unit there, waiting to absorb those hits. I have tried with cav and they just lack the punch. Spears lack the punch too. :confused:

Treadhead_1st
06-12-2010, 10:46
I field an Archmage and she usually has Mind Razor. Spears are scary again.

Out of interest, where do you put your Archmage when she's supporting Spearmen? Is it in a nearby "bunker", or does she just sit in with the Spears?

I'm just wondering because in my own lists I find it very difficult to keep Mage-type characters alive (the fact my Level 2 is in a Chariot only makes things harder :p)

Tarian
06-12-2010, 14:29
She's with my Phoenix Guard bunker, and the enemy warmachines are usually more interested in her unit, or the White Lions, or the Swordmasters. As she's Ethereal, she'll pretty much always challenge, even if it only sucks out the enemy champion. (Free Damage prevention!)

As for Withering, that's for the guys my LSG and archers are looking at. Shadow Magic is great, especially when you know 5 of 6 spells.

Frogczar
06-12-2010, 19:18
Hi High Elf players,

I'm a long-time Orc and Goblin general with an eye on starting High Elves. I have two copies of the Island of Blood set and I was wondering what you would suggest to flesh out the army? I'm more interested in archers than combat units, but I'm really open to anything.

Also, what size should my units be? How many wide generally?

Thanks,
Frog

Trains_Get_Robbed
06-12-2010, 21:00
^^^

Archers and Shooting in a H.E army this ed. is really to be honest, bad. Yes, one can participate, but its sells short of just about any army that "actually" has shooting (this includes your O&G). Besides this, the best troops in the H.E book, and the ones with the most fluff and charcter are the specials, and thus the more points spent on things like Bolt Throwers, and Archers, is less on White Lions and Dragon Princes.

This, dosen't go to say that Bolt Throwers are useless (I never/will never take Archers), I take them in pairs about every 3rd game.

If you want to participate in the shooting phase, Seaguard are your best bet. I regularly run 23-27 blocks 10 to 11 wide and reform when the enemy gets close. This combined with an effective bunker spot for my Lvl 2 with (as of late Heavens, but normally augment spells) A.C and H.E Magic, or Silver Wand and REAVER BOW with H.E/Life, can be quite effective. Mainly, when i do run M.G Tommy (otherwise known as) S.W and R.B Mage, he pays his points back tremndously and boosts the wounds and panic checks that the LSG can generate and for me, makes them even better at hunting MSU and medium armored blocks.

Picking up the Batallion Box, and the Dragon Kit is really tasty. (Unknowingly about this) I picked up the Hero/Lord box, however, you can make more varied foot heroes and mages, from extra Archer legs and the 3rd pair of legs from the Chariot crew sprue and the bodies, weapons etc. . . from the Dragon kit. I literally have 4 different Combat and Magic champions that I can use now, its quite sweet. :D

EnternalVoid
07-12-2010, 07:38
But it only ever helps one unit. So if you cast the shield, he will most likely shoot at something that is as vulnerable and as expensive as the swordmasters. You can't protect your entire army with the spell, and there will always be weak links. But in close combat it is good.

Casting the shield with 1 die is very much of a gamble, casting it with 2 dice isn't worth the effort.

A spell saving one unit that is one of your best at damage output is never a waste in my book. Even more considering how often my unit selection goes.

As generally I only take two elite units, and one is Phoenix Guard it means the next in line for them to target is my spearment. If my second elite block, swordmasters or White Lions, have the Shield on them you are not picking them off as easy. Alot of people I know target the second elite block rather than Phoenix Guard as they are easier to kill and tend to be more destructive in melee. The 5+ ward save would go a long way to keeping them alive. Many opponents would rather still try to kill swordmasters with a 5+ ward save rather than throw their basic shooting at spearmen.

In addition the only models that are as expensive as swordmasters tend to be Phoenix Guard and White Lions and both are not as vunerable. The rest are more or less expensive.


Yes, your point though? The whole reason for a flank or rear charge on turn three instead of a headlong charge in the front on turn one is for the extra +1 or +2 C.R its going to get you, henceforth, buying you a turn of staying power. Your real killing dosen't start until the second combat phase. Thus, instead of losing a by 3 or 4, you only lose by 1 or 2 on that first turn. I'll take LD 8 (maybe rerol)l over LD 6 (maybe reroll) anyday, I don't know about you, but that is just me.

Not to mention, "Make Way" (Page 100) never states that champions can 'make way,' only that charcters can. However, on (Page 93) it says "champions and issue and accept challenges in the same way as charcters."

Therefore, my intital paragraph in this post still stands (was the orginal meaning behind flank/rear charge comment in orginal post a page ago) and your correction still stands correct.

I know this is going to sound back but this is not to be mean, but what is your point? I am being serious as I am somewhat confused by your post here. I might be missing why you are bringing this up.

In my post I was just correcting the statement you had about the unit having open reign to attack the dragon after the rider kills the Unit champion. I never questioned the part about the aiming for a flank or rear charge for the combat res. You are right that those things give you a much better chance, but again I never questioned that.

EnternalVoid
07-12-2010, 07:43
I'm keen to learn more about flanking. As we are quite outnumbered I find it hard to actually outflank my opponent without him having some sort of counter unit there, waiting to absorb those hits. I have tried with cav and they just lack the punch. Spears lack the punch too. :confused:

He is referencing to using a Dragon and the fact that with its charge range and movement it can set up flank charges easier than many units. The fact it actually flies means with enough movement it can even cross a wall of units to set up a charge. Basically rather than hitting that counter unit flying over it and lining up a different charge.

With its LOS and flying it can also go over units trying to impose themselves in its way, so it can charge over screens if there is room as well.

EnternalVoid
07-12-2010, 07:49
She's with my Phoenix Guard bunker, and the enemy warmachines are usually more interested in her unit, or the White Lions, or the Swordmasters. As she's Ethereal, she'll pretty much always challenge, even if it only sucks out the enemy champion. (Free Damage prevention!)

Sounds like my archmage *Chuckles*. I have been taking the Talisman of Saphery, the robes, and rotating around trying the last few points. He has bounced between the Dispel Scroll, Silver Wand, and the staff of solidity.

That said the first game in 8th ed I got a WoC player flusterated. He had a unit of Tz chosen all decked out to get a 3+ ward save as soon as possible. My life Archmage managed to Lurker him twice shrinking the unit despite the ward save and when he got in combat his Combat lord ended up in a challenge with my archmage. He ended up pouring over the rule book for almost ten minutes reading the challenge rules looking for some way to break the challenge so his lord could help his unit.

Double_Trouble
08-12-2010, 06:26
So I was searching the internet, but couldn't find it. Can a dragon mage say be equiped with an enchanted shield? Cause I found somewhere that mages cant use any armour. It was a pretty old post though.

Chiungalla
08-12-2010, 06:30
They can't. They need an armor option in the army book, to take any kind of armor.

Trains_Get_Robbed
08-12-2010, 06:42
Void: Ahhh, gotcha. Yeah I probably just scanned your post since it had my name in it -at this time of year (exams and studying) I read topic quesiton or post and probably just moved on. :P

I also run that setup: Unkillable Archmage with D.Scroll.

I'm thinking about running the either the Book of Ashur, or some other setup though, as I like to try to stay awat from Teclis and the Hoeth "whining" at all costs.

However, with this being said, I find that some people will never stop their griping. After entering a doubles tournament (only got to play a game with the way scheduling went :() and seeing the other 2 H.E players running Teclis, I found myself quite in the clear of the "beef", until one of the G.W redshirts and his Ogre partner started their wiiiinnnnnee after we massacred em' by 1,239.

"That Unkillable mage is so dumb and broken!!!! Its worse than Teclis!!!"

^^^ :wtf: Really, Mr. Redshirt?

SO with this in mind; does anyone else take any other sort of Archmage setup that dosen't include Golden Boy, the Book, or Mr. Unkillable? (sounds like a superhero league)

Tarian
08-12-2010, 09:19
Seer Staff and 4+ Ward sometimes. Not spectacular, but does give you the 4 spells from the Lore of your choice.

King_Pash
08-12-2010, 11:34
My personal preference Is Crown of Command, Staff of Solidity and Talisman of Presetvation for a Stubborn, 4++ save with an ignore onthe first miscast.

Pulstar
08-12-2010, 13:53
My Mr. UnKillable got sucked into the warp (though Throne of Vines no less) the other night taking 5 White Lions with him.

Of course his dwellers took 4 of 6 ogres with him and let me win the game when the remaining Lions was able to finish off the rest of the unit (and his standard bearer) to drop him bellow his fatigue point. Not a fair trade, but I won.

Not sure how else to equip him. The seer staff would be nice (to get the 4 spells you want), a Silver wand will get 5 of 6 so it would be rare to not get the spells you want out of a lore.

You could just take the robes, with High magic and Vaul's his units and see if he likes that any better.

Double_Trouble
08-12-2010, 15:51
So I was searching the internet, but couldn't find it. Can a dragon mage say be equiped with an enchanted shield? Cause I found somewhere that mages cant use any armour. It was a pretty old post though.

I'm sorry if I might ask this again, but where exactly is it stated in BRB or army book, that it is so? In the army book by the choices it is said "magic items: Any, up to a total of 50 pts". Since enchanted shield is a magic item, where does it say, that I can't take it?

Edit: Nevermind, found it..:)

Drakemaster
08-12-2010, 16:13
p.500 of the main rulebook, at the beginning of the 'Magic Items' section.

Magic Interference - Wizards cannot take magic armour unless they have an option for 'normal' armour.
Unlike, say, Vamps (where the magic item section overrules this) HE have no rule that enables mages/archmages to take magic armour.

King_Pash
08-12-2010, 23:09
p.500 of the main rulebook, at the beginning of the 'Magic Items' section.

Unlike, say, Vamps (where the magic item section overrules this) HE have no rule that enables mages/archmages to take magic armour.

Unless you give a Prince or Noble the Awesome Gem of Hoeth or the Wizardy Hat :P

winterking07
08-12-2010, 23:59
Does the Gem of Hoeth work with armor? I always figured that it was only useful on an unarmored character (which could still be useful with, say, a prince with a ward save, something for extra attacks, and Lore of Beasts).

Reimu
09-12-2010, 00:12
Yep, since Nobles and Princes have armour options.

Magic doesn't work with armour only when the caster doesn't normally have the option for armour. It's a rule solely in place to disallow most casters from taking magic armour.

King_Pash
09-12-2010, 02:59
On another topic, what's the extent of people's success with Dragons these days? And I don't want theory-hammer; if you haven't tried it, don't bother commenting.

Pwrsonally, I've started to run a Prince on Moon Dragon. Partially for the lower points cost but also because with I3 it means it can at least attack at the same time ad most basic infantry. My current set up is Dragon Armour, Vambraces of Defence, Enchanted Shield, Crown of Command, Lance. Made to go against infantry and elite infantry and if really required some Lord-level characters too. Best used with the Savage Beast of Horros boost for 15+2D6(+D6) S9 (!!) attacks on the charge. Not many normal characters can stand up to that :)

Tarian
09-12-2010, 03:04
Run a Star Dragon Lord @3k, has VoD, AoC, and a Great Weapon. I2 doesn't matter, when most things have a hard time scratching the Dragon, and the Lord is actually harder to damage than the Dragon (and is still quite good on foot). If facing a cannonade/fighting solo, they're in trouble, with support, they're very hard to beat.

BRETELF
09-12-2010, 04:50
Hi High Elf players,

I'm a long-time Orc and Goblin general with an eye on starting High Elves. I have two copies of the Island of Blood set and I was wondering what you would suggest to flesh out the army? I'm more interested in archers than combat units, but I'm really open to anything.

Also, what size should my units be? How many wide generally?

Thanks,
Frog

If you want to win games, get a lvl 4 Arch-Mage with the Book of Hoeth and lore of life surrounded by 20 phoenix guard...

EnternalVoid
09-12-2010, 07:09
Void: Ahhh, gotcha. Yeah I probably just scanned your post since it had my name in it -at this time of year (exams and studying) I read topic quesiton or post and probably just moved on. :P

Tis okay, I remember college with a cringe *was so happy to get me degree*


I'm thinking about running the either the Book of Ashur, or some other setup though, as I like to try to stay awat from Teclis and the Hoeth "whining" at all costs.

I have never actually played Teclis, but then again I dislike playing with Special characters in general. The only ones that has really really tempted me are Eltharion and Caradryan.

As for the griping I know what you mean. I get it from our WoC player all the time as he hates that archmage. Despite a few people commenting he should be happy I don't use the book or Teclis he still grumbles.

I have been trying to consider a few other sets ups for an archmage, but have not really testing them to much sadly as I am using dwarves right now for our current campaign. One I had been considering was just an archmage with a silverwand, take lore of light as they generally are buffs and stay back. Keeps him under 300 points and with 5 of the 6 spells he should get the buffs I am looking for. And some of the buffs he can easily cast the better form to effect all the units around him if he is lurking behind the front line.

King_Pash
15-12-2010, 12:21
My god, this thread has fallen off the second page for about the first time in 6-months. What's wrong, have we all mastered the subtle HE tactics?

OK, for a new topic. What do you think would be a very effective Deathstar for HE? Personally, I think 30 (Horde) White Lions with Full command, Flaming Banner, Ironcurse Icon and BSB with World Dragon Banner in it would be somewhere up there.

Thoughts?

Pulstar
15-12-2010, 14:22
That is a lot of str 6 attacks. In place of the World Dragon Banner, I'd have a life mage lurking around them instead.

Having 30 7 toughness white lions that are being regrown boggles the mind.

On another topic. What are peoples 2500 point army list like? I see the Colonial tourney is going be within an hours drive of me and it got me thinking on what kind of HE force could do well. (No Teclis, but other SC are included)

Treadhead_1st
16-12-2010, 00:29
Hey folks - I'm after some tactical/list advice (given how intertwined the two are).

I am working on a Macedonian-theme army - I'm sure I've mentioned it before - and so far I have settled on having a unit of 14 Silver Helms (led by a character, unsure on Noble or Prince), a unit of White Lions, either 2 large blocks of Spearmen (24-32 depending on width/how many points left over), or 3 20-man ones, a Mage (Level 2, Ring of Fury) and a lone Tiranoc Chariot. I'm working up to approximately 2000 points, at least for now.

This means I have quite a lot of infantry, some of which can actually dish out some high-strength pain, and a cavalry unit that should be an effective flank-hammer (traditional use was to break through the flank of the enemy army then attack the flanks/rear of formations - character and many ranks (5x3) helps).

However I feel that the list may struggle with:

1. Horde units (at least until the Spearmen close and can throw in a weight of attacks).

2. Monsters (the Lions and Cavalry might be able to deal, but again have to be close and in the right place).

3. War Machines (Trebuchets and other stone throwers give me nightmares just thinking about them, with lots of T3 blocks).

4. Having no ranged capability to "reach out and touch someone" also seems like a bad idea, as having some sort of unit to strip a rank here, finish off a fleeing unit there, take out enemy missile troops, perhaps take out war machine crew and so on.

My deployment tends to look a little like this (except perhaps with an extra Spearman block) - it can be mirror-reversed if the enemy is weaker to cavalry on the opposite flank, the right-hand deployment is just for example purposes:

-------Chariot-Spearmen--Spearmen--White Lions---Silver Helms

This deployment has been working fairly well in small games, as all the units can support each other - the Lions give me a strong (and stubborn) unit to "anvil" units to be flanked by the cavalry, whilst supporting either the Helms or Spears should a large monster be involved in the fight; the Chariot helps out the other Spears by combo-charging, and I have my Mage floating in one of the blocks to help out with buffing the troops (where depends on what sort of army I am facing).

Given what my army contains so far, and my style of deployment/fighting, what can you recommend to either: mitigate some of the weaknesses I think I have in my force and/or to bulk up the (in the image above) left-flank of my force to stop my army being "flank-rolled"?

It seems that shooting in general is pretty poor (Archers are expensive, RBTs have a poor reputation, Shadow Warriors and Ellyrian Reavers are horrifically overpriced for missile-fire), however all units are "historically viable" - but I am thinking that I really need *something* in there - RBTs would help solve both my Monster and Horde problems (if deployed correctly, a shot travelling horizontally down a 10-wide unit could be quite potent), and Archers could be helpful too - and not so reliant on enemy positioning. I don't want to switch my Spearmen to Seaguard for thematic reasons.

War Machine hunting is another major problem - I was thinking of either Reavers or Shadow Warriors backed up by an Eagle (I think I can just about get away with one giant eagle - more I can't do), as these can help secure the open flank and be used to attack war machines quite quickly through a variety of means...but again the units suffer from a poor reputation.

I'd really appreciate some ideas here!

Trains_Get_Robbed
16-12-2010, 03:45
HIGH ELF DEATH STAR YOU SAY?!?!? lol Heres mine in 3,000 point games

40 S.M, Unkillable A.M, Banner of Sorcery. It only sets you back a cool 1/3 of your army, and if you have trouble with a charcter your mage is there. The mage always has life and regen/toughness spell when able so yeah.

Its not a DEEEETTTHH STARRRRR to the max, but I consider it one for my purposes.

If I had an unlimited and non-caring points limit I would run also:

BsB Banner of World Dragon, and the unit would have, Crown of Command, Iron Curse and also my White Sword Prince in there in addition to the mage. Perhaps would also try the mask of Eeeee and a lvl 2 with life instead (sperate unit with Silver Wand), and then run a LvL 4 with death and spam D.D, threateing with P.S.X and then drop D.D. It works, against anyone that knows the spells and the rules of the game.

EnternalVoid
16-12-2010, 08:51
@Treadhead,
Some thoughts for your list to consider.
1) Have the Ironcurse Icon on at least one of your heroes. Sure it is only a 6+ save but I have found it has helped my units survive a bit better the pie plates some armies can put down.

2) For your mage I would consider dropping the Ring of Fury and taking the Seerstaff instead. It insures your Lv2 has the two spells that will help you best from the lore he selects. I would consider the Lore of Shadow, Light, and Death. As from what you have listed you will only have one mage it is not unheard of to throw 3-4 dice at each spell he has as he does not have to share the power dice.

With Light you can take Pha's Protection, which can go a long way to protecting your army or at least a key unit. It can be like giving your units a 4+ save against warmachines. And your second spell can vary depending on what you might need as you select your spells at the time you would roll for them.

Shadow you have a good selection of debuffs and one very good buff to consider. Mindrazor would allow even your spearmen to cut through almost any enemy. It can also help your silverhelms a lot, that way even if they do hold after your first charge, during their round of combat you will still hit hard. Withering and enfeeble foe are both nice as well, though don't expect them to last through their magic phase as they will dispel. You can also get Pit or Pendulum if you are facing armies with warmachines as both fear the spells.

Death is really for assassination, maybe doom and darkness, and likely Soulblight. Soulblight can cripple the efforts of a melee army for a turn if you get the area effect version off. Also they can't just dispel it during their own turn to get rid of it. Doom and darkness could be useful for your Silverhelms to help the unit they charge break. Also with a nice selection of assassin spells means you can have your mage trying to pick off their magic users or heroes. Maybe even monsters with Spirit Leech. Dark elf you know is likely toting the reverse ward save, Fate of Bjuna will put the fear into him.

3) I would consider trying to get a few great eagles into your list. There is a whole list of things you can use them for ranging from warmachine hunting, stalling the enemy line, to charging fleeing units to send them off the table. Even if you have to consider dropping the chariot I would think about it.

4) I would consider the Banner of Eternal Flame for your White Lions. With that they can chop up hydras and hellpit Abominations real good. It is to bad that Silverhelms can not take it as that would be another option to consider.

GenerationTerrorist
18-12-2010, 17:20
Hi guys.
I had a fun game yesterday against a WoC army with my Caledor-themed list.

I used a pretty sick unit of 23 Dragon Princes (Full Command, Standard of Balance, Helm of Fortune) led by a BSB (DP Kit, World Dragon Banner, Great Weapon) and another Noble (DP Kit, Sacred Insence, Great Weapon) in a 5*5 formation, reverting to a Horde when needed.

That combined with a Star Dragon Prince pretty much rolled their way across the entire army from flank to flank. My LSG and RBT's held firm in the centre for some unknown/lucky reason, just long enough for the Deathstar unit of Chosen to be smashed in the flank by the DP's and in the rear by the SD Prince.

I did LOL at the 30-strong unit of Warriors with their Flaming Banner being unable to do bugger all as my DP charged them!

Treadhead_1st
18-12-2010, 17:35
I am interested in using some Ellyrian Reavers in my army - they fit in thematically and will give me a valuable unit for hunting down war-machines and supporting my other Cavalry choices. I know they aren't seen as an attractive option to most players, but they should fill some nice gaps in my army's capabilities.

However I am not sure how to run them:

1) What weapons are best suited? Should they be run with just Spears to maximise their ability against War Machines thanks to the increased strength; with just Bows to harass the enemy as they move around and then charge War Machines with their base Str3 attacks; or should they be equipped with both weapons to give them the ultimate flexibility, the ability to hit War Machines hard and then harass the enemy from a distance, albeit at a high cost?

2) What unit size is most suited to the various roles? Should I take a single unit of 10 as they are much harder to panic and hit harder on the charge (also I assume they can shoot in 2 ranks?), or should I take two units of 5 for the flexibility to charge different targets whilst making them harder to be targeted in return?

3) What command options are needed? I guess the Musician is probably the only upgrade needed, though I can't see much use for the free-reform, especially in smaller units - but would a Harbringer help out a shooting-based unit?

I know these are kind of noobish questions and were floated around a lot in 7th edition, but I've taken a look through this forum and haven't really seen anything on setting up Reavers in 8th edition.

Avatar of the Eldar
19-12-2010, 15:55
The reason you can't find any advice in this forum is because few HE players take Reavers, as there are other things that can do their job for fewer points. i.e. Great Eagles.

I love the new models and the concept of them, but there are just too many better choices.

That said, in my 8 years of playing HE I ran them once, with one Great Eagle, last spring in a tournament. I did it just to field the damn models that have been on my shelf forever. They did okay.

Just know you're giving up some competitive optimization of your list with them for the sake of model variety. They won't gimp your list but they won't do as much for you as those points would spent differently.

To answer your questions directly:

1) I'd take both weapons for the sake of versatility. Some would tell you just take spears to go war-machine hunting or redirect. Although you do realize that costs one point less than Silver Helms with shields and a 2+ save.

2) 10 Reavers is highly unorthodox. Five Reavers with bows equals 7 more WL's or SM's which is a whole rank. Both hit harder and the WL's are much more resilient to ranged attacks. So, my answer is no more than 5-6. It's a expendable distraction unit; don't over-invest.

3) Musician only. Full stop. See my last sentence in #2 above.

Bottom line, take them for a while and see how they perform (or don't) in your list. But don't take too many of them unless you're a dominant player in your gaming circle and just want flaunt that by handicapping yourself.

Avatar of the Eldar
19-12-2010, 16:21
My god, this thread has fallen off the second page for about the first time in 6-months. What's wrong, have we all mastered the subtle HE tactics?

OK, for a new topic. What do you think would be a very effective Deathstar for HE? Personally, I think 30 (Horde) White Lions with Full command, Flaming Banner, Ironcurse Icon and BSB with World Dragon Banner in it would be somewhere up there.

Thoughts?

Hey KP,

My response is "No likey." Deathstars disgust me because a) they reduce model variety on the table and I like pageantry of a variety of unit combination and b) it's gimmicky and doesn't look like "real" army.

My 2 p.

Respectfully,

AotE

Prince Sairion
19-12-2010, 20:07
Reavers are good, but I use a unit of 5 shadow warriors and they fulfill a similar role to them for cheaper.

The only thing I wish I could give them is a musician for +1LD to rally, as I use them mainly to slow down the hardest unit the enemy has by deploying 12" infront of them.

Reavers are good, I just find that psychologically people will attack a unit of 5 cavalry far more often than 5 piddly scouts, meaning my scouts can hang around for longer and perform their duty - to die for the cause.

Treadhead_1st
19-12-2010, 22:44
SNIP


SNIP

Ok, thanks folks.

My issue is that, for thematic reasons, my access to Great Eagles is restricted to 1 max.

With that in mind, I need something to take on War Machines - I have quite a few infantry and as such am extremely vulnerable to Stone Throwers (and I guess Cannon, since they don't have much else to target in my army).

How should I take them out? Reavers or Shadow Warriors or a mix of the two?

The weaknesses of Reavers have been pointed out, but I am finding that my opponents don't leave much room behind their lines to deploy Scouts - so they'd be starting a fair distance away, which could be a big risk; thus should I take a combination? Or does that simply mean the opponent can easily prioritise targets and go after whichever presents the most pressing threat?

ScytheSwathe
20-12-2010, 01:33
If you want to make reavers work, then make them work. But eagles are the 'best' option gamewise. I dont really think that bows are worth it on them. 6 S3 shots isnt going to scare anyone, just nail any war machines ASAP, and if the reavers live to tell the tale, use them to rear charge when your main line gets stuck in; giving you that lovely +2 combat res.
I wouldnt expect them to kill anything harder than average war machine crews with bows, spears, or anything else you can think of.

Chiungalla
20-12-2010, 09:24
As a matter of fact the point where I decide if I want bows or not, is when my list is nearly finished. Because I will know by then if the points fit into my list.

That said, the bows are great. At least from time to time.
They cost 20 points on a unit of 5. It's not that hard to get 20 points back with 5 strengh 5 shoots a turn.

And there are lots of good targets around for them to shoot at.
Fast cavalry for example. Other elves in general.

From time to time they can be the difference between a failed panic test or no panic test at all. ;-)

But there are other good choices as well. So if you have left the points in the end of your army list creation go with bows. If you don't have the points, just don't put the bows into the army list.

Hashulaman
20-12-2010, 10:01
Saturday I ordered the new Dragon Princes and had money left over to buy my 3rd Lion Chariot, were these good buys? I run an infantry army for the msot part and chariots/heavy Calvalry would be new for me(For High elves anyway, I have used Chaos Knight extensivly in the past for my WoC.) I love the idea of having heavy cavalry somewhere in my army to smash into the enemy.

My current setup from center going outward is 20 PG with Sorcery banner in the middle, Spearmen on each side, roughly 20-25 model units each. I now have 2 10 model archer units, 2 10model Swordmaster units(10 for 2500, 12 for 3,000). I don't know where to put them The Chariot and the Dragon Princes would problably be on each extreme flnak, I do not know. My BSB of course goes in with the Phoenix Guard, I'm thinking my Lore of Life archmage with Book of Hoeth goes in there 2, My regular lore of Shadow mage I dunno yet.

So how would this setup be deployed the most effectivly, and was my purchase of Dragon princes and a Lion Chariot a good idea given what else I am working with?

I also am iffy on what gear to give the BSB and Shadow mage. GW, Dragon armor and Shield so far for BSB(for only 2 points I might as well take a shield) but what Magic items to take I do not know.

smithers
20-12-2010, 14:12
Saturday I ordered the new Dragon Princes and had money left over to buy my 3rd Lion Chariot, were these good buys? ...

I also am iffy on what gear to give the BSB and Shadow mage. GW, Dragon armor and Shield so far for BSB(for only 2 points I might as well take a shield) but what Magic items to take I do not know.

Still painting up my HE army, but I like dragon princes, esp with Lore of Life so you can buff them with regeneration (goes nicely with their 2+ fire ward) and and also grow back expensive models. People are of course less keen on cavalry for 8th, but they are one of the better mounted options out there.

I think there is agreement that Lion Chariots are a bit over-costed compared to the basic chariot. I can see fielding one just because they are so cool-looking but 3 seems a bit much if you are trying to do a competitive list.

As far as your BSB goes, Armor of Caledor is a nice choice. Then maybe Guardian Phoenix for 5+ ward. Or if you feel confident you'll have earthblood up, Amulet of light + luckstone could be nice for his unit (with GW of course in any case)

Pulstar
20-12-2010, 20:06
What unit is more effective, in general. I'm playing in a 1000 point battle, so there isn't points for a BSB if I want any magic.

A unit of 24 Spearmen w/ FC and Banner of Leadership

OR

A unit of 17 LSG w/ FC and Banner of EF

Both units come in at 256 points. (Your whole core)

GenerationTerrorist
20-12-2010, 22:10
Pulstar, at that points level, I'd be more likely to go for the numbers. Being outnumbered won't matter so much in bigger games, when we can bring lots of nasty toys into play ourselves!

How about taking a BSB with the Radiant Gem of Hoeth. You get a lvl1 Wizard and a BSB all rolled into one :-)

King_Pash
21-12-2010, 01:36
Hey KP,

My response is "No likey." Deathstars disgust me because a) they reduce model variety on the table and I like pageantry of a variety of unit combination and b) it's gimmicky and doesn't look like "real" army.

My 2 p.

Respectfully,

AotE

Whether or not Deathstars appeal to you really doesn't affect their effectiveness :p

Personally, I posted this to try to breathe some life back into the HE tactics page and it seems to have done the trick. Goal achieved :D

Barry "the blade"
21-12-2010, 10:13
I'm just getting back into the hobby/game, and picked up the IoB set. I've only played one game since 6th edition. Going to start out with the High Elves just because I'm really liking the figures, and I've never done a"good guys" army. The question is can the HEs make an effective army with lots of core troops being the focus of the army?
Would/could several units of 18 spears in 6x3 formation be effective in a list built to be aggressive?
Almost looking at trying a msu game play style(thats how I ran my DE in 6th), but adapting it to fit into 8th ed by slightly increasing the unit size up.
I've already decided that this is how I will start out with building the army, but would like to hear any thoughts, ideas, or advice you all might have.

Thanks in advance for your time, and input:)

Treadhead_1st
21-12-2010, 10:49
I'm just getting back into the hobby/game, and picked up the IoB set. I've only played one game since 6th edition. Going to start out with the High Elves just because I'm really liking the figures, and I've never done a"good guys" army. The question is can the HEs make an effective army with lots of core troops being the focus of the army?
Would/could several units of 18 spears in 6x3 formation be effective in a list built to be aggressive?
Almost looking at trying a msu game play style(thats how I ran my DE in 6th), but adapting it to fit into 8th ed by slightly increasing the unit size up.
I've already decided that this is how I will start out with building the army, but would like to hear any thoughts, ideas, or advice you all might have.

Thanks in advance for your time, and input:)

I'm working on an army that's (supposedly) heavy on Core - though I'm still only spending about 30% of my army's points-allowance on it.

MSU may not work so well in this edition, particularly with the changes to the way stone-throwers work and the increased damage from close-combat thanks to "step-up". At the mimimum, I'd turn your 18-strong unit into a 20-strong unit and deploy 5x4, as you're going to need the extra rank most of the time (and all 4 ranks can still fight in combat, so you may as well make the most of it!).

The trouble with a core-heavy force (as I have found) is that you need a lot of supporting elements - mages, to prevent enemy magic wiping you off the board; war-machine hunters, to stop Stone Throwers removing blocks at a time; something high-strength, to help the Spears out in close-combat; something ranged, as although shooting isn't all that brilliant you really need something to eliminate enemy support units and strip the odd rank here and there (to remove Steadfast when they're about to be charged by your Spearmen). That's how I ended up with only 30% core at 2K - the supporting elements are many and necessary.

++

To the general thread:

Do you think that we High Elves can pull off the same tricks as other armies, of having Core blocks led by a (for Elves) cheap Hero? There are now two items that offer a flat 2+ save available, chuck on a Great Weapon and stick in the spears, and hey-presto, the unit has instant hitting-power (particularly if on the edge of a unit to mitigate returning attacks). I guess at 100+ points each it's a little non-viable, but I'd be interested to hear thoughts on it anyway. 2 Nobles equipped thus and a BSB should fit into the allowance for Heroes at 2K, and you can still take a Prince/Archmage to boot.

Just an idea I was mulling over - it's not something I have tried before as I like my army character-light in order to get more boots on the field (my 2K force has a Noble and a Lvl2 Mage...albeit no BSB), but it could be an interesting proposal.

If there is a Str6 character in each Spear-block, 3 blocks with a central BSB, then 2 small blocks of White Lions on either flank of the Spear-line...that could pose some extremely awkward target choices for the opponent, and assuming the Spears are a large enough size, have a fully Stubborn/Steadfast battle-line all with Leadership re-rolls.

It's expensive but would still allow room for supporting units, cavalry/chariots and magic. What do you think of the idea?