PDA

View Full Version : Tactica: High Elves in 8th edition



Pages : 1 2 3 4 5 6 [7] 8 9 10 11

Pulstar
21-12-2010, 13:32
Pulstar, at that points level, I'd be more likely to go for the numbers. Being outnumbered won't matter so much in bigger games, when we can bring lots of nasty toys into play ourselves!

How about taking a BSB with the Radiant Gem of Hoeth. You get a lvl1 Wizard and a BSB all rolled into one :-)

I went with the 17 LSG, and stuck a level 2 (w/ High) in them. They ended up shotting 4 marauders, losing 2 guys to the traitor spell, and then 10 guys on three miscasts, in two magic phases, and ran off the board. (The last two miscasts were back-to-back on three dice each.)

I also took 17 Swordmasters, with a Prince. They killed everything else in the guys army except for two dog units that were smart enough to not make it into combat.

Chiungalla
21-12-2010, 13:59
@Treadhead_1st:
I would go for ward saves on combat heroes on food, since a 2+ armor save is to easily modified beyond 4+. So I would choose the Armor of Destiny and the Talisman of Preservation over the 2+ armors any day.

And if I would go hero heavy, I would not put them in spear elves.
White Lions or Swordmasters would be my way to go, since with spear elves it's to easy and decision to attack the characters only. And two high elf heroes with great weapons in a large unit of white lions, will most likely be a thread to any unit in the game.

smithers
21-12-2010, 14:37
@Treadhead_1st:
I would go for ward saves on combat heroes on food, since a 2+ armor save is to easily modified beyond 4+.

Are you saying if I deploy my prince on a ham sandwich he gets the +1 mounted bonus?

And what about barding? Would a ziplock make it +2?

Darktan
21-12-2010, 16:45
Are you saying if I deploy my prince on a ham sandwich he gets the +1 mounted bonus?

And what about barding? Would a ziplock make it +2?

I love you.

:D

But on foot, wouldn't a 2+ / 5++ from armour/pheonix be better than a 5+/4++ from the destiny or preservation?

ColShaw
21-12-2010, 16:47
I love you.

:D

But on foot, wouldn't a 2+ / 5++ from armour/pheonix be better than a 5+/4++ from the destiny or preservation?

Depends what you're fighting. Against S4 or less, the 2+/5++ is superior. Against S5, they're mathematically identical. Against S6+, the 5+/4++ wins out.

Hashulaman
21-12-2010, 20:56
I really want to take a Dragon mage in a 3k since it is a Cheaper alternative to that Points Sink of a Star Dragon Prince, but I have not played HE in 8th yet. My current list has Caradryan and Korhil in a Chariot, If i dump them I can fit a fully kitted Dragon Mage. Should I try using a Dragon Mage, or wait till I get more expierience with 8th HE. I feel confident in using Caradryan and Korhil(If I loose them it's won't make a huge difference and they can probably get their points back much easier than if i used a Dragon Mage with little expierience.)

Are Caradryan and Korhil Acceptable SC's in freindly games? As in do you think anyone save the most anal type would be okay with them? I'm trying to not use Teclis save in Tournaments as people grumble about him, but I love the fluff of the recent SC's.

ColShaw
21-12-2010, 21:09
I'm not a guy who uses SCs, but I've got a Caradryan model and would like to use him. I'd have absolutely no problem playing against them. They're medium-power close-combat SCs, and as such, hardly unbalancing.

Jericho
21-12-2010, 21:33
Honestly most opponents will be like, "You have a special character whose name doesn't rhyme with necklace, let me buy you a beer." :yes:

Some people used to say taking Korhil with Phoenix Guard and Caradryan with White Lions was cheeky, but honestly it's not such a big deal with the rules tweaks in 8th.

IronShark
21-12-2010, 22:50
Depends what you're fighting. Against S4 or less, the 2+/5++ is superior. Against S5, they're mathematically identical. Against S6+, the 5+/4++ wins out.

I think your math is a little off. 2+/5++ is superior to 5+/4++ until S7. At Strength 5, the 2+/5++ becomes a 4+ followed by a 5++, whereas a 5+/4++ is reduced to just a 4++ save.

Here's the odds, in the format of Strength - probability of failing both saves

For 2+/5++
S3 - 0.111
S4 - 0.222
S5 - 0.333
S6 - 0.444
S7 - 0.555
S8 - 0.667

For 5+/4++
S3 - .333
S4 - .416
S5+ - .500

ScytheSwathe
22-12-2010, 13:11
Ive tried it. Its too expensive for what it does. High elf characters need to be either casting, carrying banners, or riding dragons to be worth your while really. The fact is, that skaven and goblins can get those heroes at a fraction of the price, and they displace goblins and slaves, so the advantage is more too.

ColShaw
22-12-2010, 14:11
I think your math is a little off. 2+/5++ is superior to 5+/4++ until S7. At Strength 5, the 2+/5++ becomes a 4+ followed by a 5++, whereas a 5+/4++ is reduced to just a 4++ save.

You're right, of course. Apparently I'm bad at math during the Christmas season. :o

Treadhead_1st
22-12-2010, 14:34
@Treadhead_1st:
I would go for ward saves on combat heroes on food, since a 2+ armor save is to easily modified beyond 4+. So I would choose the Armor of Destiny and the Talisman of Preservation over the 2+ armors any day.

And if I would go hero heavy, I would not put them in spear elves.
White Lions or Swordmasters would be my way to go, since with spear elves it's to easy and decision to attack the characters only. And two high elf heroes with great weapons in a large unit of white lions, will most likely be a thread to any unit in the game.

I was just thinking that Spearmen need a bit of help cutting through the enemy at times - and that if you're supporting the Spearmen with White Lions, does it not make more sense to put the characters in the Spears, to prevent the enemy from eliminating every single high-strength weapon in the force by knocking out a single unit?

One unit of White Lions with 2 GW characters is extremely potent, and will have a massive "shoot me" sign on it (particularly for Stone Throwers); whereas a unit (or two) of White Lions supporting 3 Spear blocks with Str6 characters forces the enemy to make serious targetting choices - yes, the characters can be attacked, but that's why you have a Champion (to suck challenges) and the high armour-save (to largely ignore "grunt" attacks). If they target the Spearmen, then they'll be facing the wrath of the White Lions; whilst if they target the White Lions then the Spearmen are still throwing out some Str6 attacks (which can be handy against small units of Knights that are otherwise problematic for the unit) and a veritable horde of Str3 attacks too.

I don't have a vested interest in this style of play, it's just some ideas that I am mulling over, given that I haven't really seen it done (perhaps because it's too character-heavy more than any other factor).


Ive tried it. Its too expensive for what it does. High elf characters need to be either casting, carrying banners, or riding dragons to be worth your while really. The fact is, that skaven and goblins can get those heroes at a fraction of the price, and they displace goblins and slaves, so the advantage is more too.

That's one of my main concerns. The cost can be quite high, and it seems to waste the Heroes (though my theory would be 2 combat Nobles, combat BSB, Archmage), and many other armies can do it a lot cheaper - it was something I was originally entertaining with my Empire. However despite it's cost, I can see it as being a potentially good play against regular opponents, as it shifts they style of the list around a little. However perhaps it is something that should be reserved for larger games, when you have more points to bulk up the rest of the force and off-set the drain the characters bring.

Kellindel
22-12-2010, 15:22
He is referencing to using a Dragon and the fact that with its charge range and movement it can set up flank charges easier than many units. The fact it actually flies means with enough movement it can even cross a wall of units to set up a charge. Basically rather than hitting that counter unit flying over it and lining up a different charge.

With its LOS and flying it can also go over units trying to impose themselves in its way, so it can charge over screens if there is room as well.

Extactly what my Dragon Mage did in the last game. I played a Empire army that out numbered me in numbers almost 3 to 1. Actually I think it was almost 4 to one. Not that I had a lot of expensive units, he just went really cheap.

My Eagles took care of his cannons, my shadow warriors pinned down his Hero on Pegasas, my Silver Helms were pretty useless (along with my Bolt Thrower).

I only had my block of spearmen, small block of PG with my Mage, and my 2 units of 10 archers which were assigned to pepper the large block of infantry and their supporting block.

My Dragon Mage I took because it was a gift from a friend and he expected to see it there. But it was great. I moved it all over the board and he continually moved (reformed) units I got behind. It basically stopped all his movement on my right flank. And when I had my spearmen/PG block ready to charge his "Center Right" block of halberds, I ended up with a front/side, and with the dragon a rear attack.

The Life spell my lvl 4 cast was done with IR and I lucked out with the miscast. His entire right flank collapsed.

I had already lost my Silver Helms, one archer unit, some spearmen, a couple PG, and one eagle.

He lost his cannons, a total of 40 infantry, his scout unit (breathed on it while flying around), his hero, and some others infantry from the other flank.

Funny note .. same unit of Archers I've used for several games has been exposed to a lot of threats and has still come away untouched. Time to get armor and a Hawkeye just for fluff sake alone. :)

point waste I know but who cares.

ColShaw
22-12-2010, 15:47
I was just thinking that Spearmen need a bit of help cutting through the enemy at times - and that if you're supporting the Spearmen with White Lions, does it not make more sense to put the characters in the Spears, to prevent the enemy from eliminating every single high-strength weapon in the force by knocking out a single unit?

I agree. I find that it's better to put combat characters in solid Core regiments and let the elite troops fend for themselves, for a couple of reasons:

1) The character is replacing a single S3 attack, instead of an S6 (Lions) or 2 S5 (Swordmasters), so it's more of an upgrade.
2) As you pointed out, it spreads things out so there aren't as many obvious targets.
3) It makes two threatening regiments, increasing your tactical options.

My Bretonnians do the same thing (Knight heroes on foot, Virtue of Empathy, with Men-at-Arms, while Knight units tend to take care of themselves).

wilsongrahams
22-12-2010, 18:59
I'm not a guy who uses SCs, but I've got a Caradryan model and would like to use him. I'd have absolutely no problem playing against them. They're medium-power close-combat SCs, and as such, hardly unbalancing.

I love the sculpts for special character models, and prefer to allow my leaders to become heroes of their own so tend to use special character models as basic guys, but at least I get to use them. My Caradryan is currently serving as unit champion of my metal Phoenix Guard - he's a little small to be used with the plastic ones well.

Just rememebr to point this out to your opponent clearly before a battle starts so that they don't get worked up seeing loads of elite characters everywhere!

Chiungalla
22-12-2010, 19:15
@ Heroes in spear elves or white lions:
The problem is, that even with a hero in it, there are lots of units the spear elves can not take. White lions with hero on the other hand can take nearly everything.

But in the end, you don't have to decide before the battle.
Just field spear elves and white lions, and put the hero where you need him at that moment.

Deciding which character will join which unit during battle, or even worse if you decide your unit placement beforehand, only limits your tactical options.

Kellindel
23-12-2010, 15:26
Okay I have a question that I'm sure has been asked and answered but I don't have the time to search through 50+ pages of this thread. And it appears that my Search-Fu is rather weak!!

If I have the Book of Hoeth, and I roll a double, I cast with I.F.

If the double is not a pair of 6's, does that mean I am still getting a mis-cast?

Just want to make sure on this one. I have a game next week, and I'll be taking three blocks of Spearmen. The largest in the center will have a mage with Metal, and behind that formation will be the BoH Mage with life in a unit of PG.

Or maybe I'll put the PG in the center, and put a small block of spearmen with the mage in back??? Hmmm ...

The thought it to have the mage in front casting the scaley skin spell, and hopefully getting the Center and flank units. The mage in back will be casting to heal/strength/other buffs as they are needed.

I am thinking of running a third mage with Shadow for Mind Razor.... But we'll see.

**EDIT**
Nevermind. Just read the FAQ on GW's site.

Winterfell
24-12-2010, 18:09
Noob question here but how come Griffons are in the army book but I cant find them in the back of the book?

Winterfell
26-12-2010, 02:53
Well I'll try a different question.

Tomorrow I'm going out to buy IoB and a HE battalion. I've ordered a HE noble with axe and shield online and that should arrive this week.

What I want to know is with the available models I will have what point value of a game should I be able to start gaming with?

I'm hoping to be able to trade off the skaven to bolster my HE but that might not be possible right away if I can't find anyone to trade with.

So knowing that I'm preparing to start off with whats straight out of the box. Also if their are any do's and don't's I should know as a beginner please let me know.

Thanks.

Treadhead_1st
26-12-2010, 19:19
Noob question here but how come Griffons are in the army book but I cant find them in the back of the book?

Printing error. I don't know if it's fine in my book (it's not with me ATM), but GW is known to have errors in different editions (of printing) of any given book.


Well I'll try a different question.

Tomorrow I'm going out to buy IoB and a HE battalion. I've ordered a HE noble with axe and shield online and that should arrive this week.

What I want to know is with the available models I will have what point value of a game should I be able to start gaming with?


I'm not sure - I think it's around 1000 points (which obviously depends how many magic items/banners you give out) - there's a "Blog of 2 gamers" on the Games Workshop website, where they play from the IoB, that should give you an idea of the points-level.



I'm hoping to be able to trade off the skaven to bolster my HE but that might not be possible right away if I can't find anyone to trade with.

So knowing that I'm preparing to start off with whats straight out of the box. Also if their are any do's and don't's I should know as a beginner please let me know.

Thanks.

The "do's and don't's" vary heavily - many people would advise that High Elf shooting simply isn't worth it in this edition, yet I think it is absolutely vital to a good list, for example.

There are many good tactics throughout this thread, I'd advise you give it a read - it's long but personally I think it is worth it - but remember that everything is subjective and depends on who/what you're playing against (i.e. in the example I gave above, I find shooting to be vital as I play against Skaven and Empire a fair amount, and killing handgunners/weapons-teams is incredibly important to keeping my Elves alive).

Once you've read through this veritable hoard of advice, think about what sort of army you want to build. Then think about what units/tactics would suit that idea (going back to the example yet again, I field a lot of Spearmen, so a shooting element aids them by stripping the odd rank before combat and so on), ask for advice relating to your specific theme/force etc.

Sorry this can't be a clear answer, and some blase posters would say "don't take X, Y or Z", but I feel that everything has a place in a certain list - there is no strict do/don't criteria (apart from sticking to Force Organisation restrictions ;))

GenerationTerrorist
27-12-2010, 00:57
I'd agree with Treadhead's post RE the shooting. It is why I always take LSG instead of Spearmen. Yeah, a few points extra per model - But the dual-use of them more than makes up for the cost. I run 2 units of either 28 or 30 LSG as my core, and they more than hold their own.

My advice would be to take SOME form of ranged attack, but not rely on it - 8th Edition has so far made me use much more aggressive tactics than I did in 7th Edition, and I don't feel that any HE army can rely on a gunline/defensive sort of list.

Chiungalla
27-12-2010, 09:54
I'd agree with Treadhead's post RE the shooting. It is why I always take LSG instead of Spearmen. Yeah, a few points extra per model - But the dual-use of them more than makes up for the cost. I run 2 units of either 28 or 30 LSG as my core, and they more than hold their own.

4 points are "not a few points"... its 120 points for your unit.
You can field 30 spear elves and 10 archers for the same amount of points, which is a by far better deal.

Liancour
27-12-2010, 10:37
You can field 30 spear elves and 10 archers for the same amount of points, which is a by far better deal.

It may not be right.
For example, if it's important to begin the game, one unit instead of two is not a bad thing.

It also can be interesting to have a close combat unit who can stand & shoot.

And both choice can be usefull depending on which scenario you are playing.

Warhammer is not only a matter of army point. ;)

smithers
28-12-2010, 21:49
It may not be right.
For example, if it's important to begin the game, one unit instead of two is not a bad thing.

It also can be interesting to have a close combat unit who can stand & shoot.

And both choice can be usefull depending on which scenario you are playing.

Warhammer is not only a matter of army point. ;)

A good point. And of course if you are playing points-denial, a 10 man unit of archers is not necessrily working to your advantage.

I don't see the point in arguing something like this. If there is not a really clear and strong advantage in going either way then GW has done things right and provided some balanced options that will result in some diversity on the table.

So when people ask "Are LSG worth it?" my answer would be "Depends on your play style and whether you like/care about the models"

Winterfell
29-12-2010, 05:09
Thanks for the answers.

I've got another question though. With the release of O&G in the coming months is their anything I can do to gear up for the number of horde armies I'll be facing?

I don't relish the idea of always being behind in combat result points.

Winterfell
29-12-2010, 05:13
The only thing I can think of is loading up on LSG to have that stand and shoot option before the charge. My units will probably need to be rather large though.

Thoughts?

Trains_Get_Robbed
29-12-2010, 05:39
^^^ Any cheap unit worth hording can easily man-handled by a block of LSG or Spears. For example, N.G, Mauraders, Clannies, Slaves, Empire Troops, M@A, essentially anything not T4.

Liancour
29-12-2010, 13:35
Flames of the phoenix is always a good way to deal with hordes...

ScytheSwathe
29-12-2010, 14:44
^ Especially once withered with shadow magic.

If, i take one unit of seaguard. they act as reserves in a sense, and so can do something useful while waiting around. They also house my archmage, as all my other units want to be in combat. Its the only true shooting i have in my list, and is handy to have for dealing with the likes of eagles/fast cav which want to harass me. For me, they are more useful than archers for those reasons.

Treadhead_1st
29-12-2010, 14:58
Thanks for the answers.

I've got another question though. With the release of O&G in the coming months is their anything I can do to gear up for the number of horde armies I'll be facing?

I don't relish the idea of always being behind in combat result points.

Well, don't go Horde yourself. A unit 7-8 wide is the H.elf equivalent of a Horde - our troops are too expensive to field in large sizes, and will need ranks.

The trick may indeed be to use some decent-sized blocks of cavalry (one with a rank, that can survive casualties) to flank the enemy as you hit it with Spears to the front. Chariots will also be very helpful too.

Ranged firepower will be handy for eliminating small Support units, or stripping ranks from enemy hordes particularly Goblins, and taking out Fanatics once they have been released. I would make sure that this is NOT in Seaguard units, as you may not necessarily want to charge the unit you shot - however they can offer flexibility against other armies, so it's up to you really.

Something to take out War Machines will be essential too - Stone Throwers will be a lot more prevalent, as previously it was competition for "slots" that was stopping them appearing in large numbers. Likewise large monsters may not be the best idea as Spear Chukkas are incredibly cheap and would make short work of them in numbers.

You may want to invest heavily in magic defence, it really depends on what the trend is after the book is released. Goblin shamans are incredibly cheap, and so can be spammed en-masse (though they are still limited to 12 dice-per-phase max, thus they may not be spammed so as to not waste points on something that can't effectively be used).

Essentially, a well-balanced force will be needed against Orcs and Goblins - and many armies for that matter. From what I've read anyway.

Pulstar
03-01-2011, 18:08
so I got a chariot box set for Christmas. What is the current though on using one.

Do I pick up a second box and run two Tiranocs, or just go with the Lion option?

luntan
03-01-2011, 18:53
so I got a chariot box set for Christmas. What is the current though on using one.

Do I pick up a second box and run two Tiranocs, or just go with the Lion option?

I use the Lion Chariot because it looks cooler then the Tiranoc. It has done well for me in the games I have played it.
Havenīt played Tiranoc so canīt say if itīs better or worse.

King_Pash
03-01-2011, 21:06
Both are quite good and have their uses. I used to run a Lion Chariot until quite recently when I swapped out for a Tyranoc. Both are good but I find that you either run two Tyranoc or only one Lion. Proxy then for now and then make up your mind if it's bugging you.

Treadhead_1st
03-01-2011, 22:29
I use a Tiranoc one as a mount for my Mage/Archmage...

...yeah, I probably shouldn't be giving out tactical advice ;).

Anyway, what I have found is that it makes an excellent "flank guard" - the Chariot's Impact Hits and the crew's Spears will see off most typical "flanking" units of skirmishers and fast cavalry. It's speed is perfect to keep pace with advancing Spearmen, helping it further in the flank-guard role. It's then usually nicely placed to flank an enemy unit that you have just charged with the aforementioned Spearmen (or try to bail them out of combat should they be charged instead), generating a few extra kills - which can be extremely important for removing things like Steadfast (by removing the odd extra model that gives the enemy unit more ranks).

I've never been a fan of the Lion Chariot - it's rather expensive for it's cost. It is superior to a Tiranoc chariot, but I would wager it's not better than the (practically) 2 horse-drawn ones you can afford in it's place.

Pulstar
04-01-2011, 14:12
I did pick up a second box set last night and plan on running a pair. Most likely as Tiranoc.

The problem with Lion Chariots is that for 10 more points you can get a unit of 5 DP which are faster, have a better armor save, and hit just as hard on a charge.

Of course two lion chariot's on either side a unit of 20 white lions would be scary awesome in my 1500 point monster list. (W/ lord on Griff, Dragon mage and a few eagles)

Chiungalla
04-01-2011, 14:33
Why are dragon princes faster?

And they have less toughness.
And the chariot fights still as well with only one wound left, which isn't true for the dragon princes.

And the most awesome advantage of the lion chariot:
You still strike with strength 6 and 5 in following rounds of close combat, when the dragon princes will impress no one with there strength 3 attacks.

GenerationTerrorist
04-01-2011, 17:30
Hi guys. I'm having some nice fun with my Saphery/Hoeth-Themed army at the moment.

Just a quick question really, and any general advice would be welcome as regards Swordmasters.

I currently run 1 unit of 26 (Full Command, Banner of Sorcery, Talisman of Loec) led by a White Sword Noble and a Lvl4 Life Mage with Folariaths, Talisman of Saphery and Silver Wand. I like this setup alot and it has given me great joy so far.

I am also trying to run a pair of smaller Swordmaster units 18 strong. I am unsure as to whether giving these guys a Champion is worthwhile, or should I just stick to Standard and Musician?

I suppose the above question could also relate to any other of the elite Infantry units available in our list.

Treadhead_1st
04-01-2011, 18:03
I'm just wondering what everyone thinks of the Lore of Heavens with High Elves (particularly relatively infantry-heavy Elves)?

I'm a bit torn on the lore really, and ideally I'll be plumping for a Lvl3/4 Archmage with an item to choose which spells I want, given that it seems to make sense to have an idea what you want to do with magic (and therefore what spells you want).

However I can't decide between Heavens, Fire and Beasts - mostly for thematic reasons, but all would fill a niche my army is currently lacking.

The attribute seems extremely situational - some armies have lots of fliers, others don't; and with the relatively short-ranged nature of the other spells in the list it seems like it won't affect things too much.

The Hex/Buff spells don't seem very strong given the Elves' innate statistics/rules, and the direct-damage spells seem weak compared to the other lores. But the Comet could be excellent to use against an opponent who is reliant on missile-weapons to thin our numbers before combat is joined, either damaging the units or forcing them to move (thus usually preventing them from firing).

Perhaps someone could advise me on the uses of the lore, or detail some benefits of Beasts/Fire over Heavens instead? Magic is something I usually leave (just a Lvl2 for defence and the odd spell here-and-there), but I am reconsidering investing in it - and Heavens is appealing as I like the idea of hurtling lightning bolts at the enemy!

Though the Flame Storm and Amber Spear spells are incredibly appealing too (giving us the ability of war-machines unavailable to our Elves [assuming a powered-up Spear]).

smithers
04-01-2011, 23:59
I'm just wondering what everyone thinks of the Lore of Heavens with High Elves (particularly relatively infantry-heavy Elves)?
.

Harmonic Convergence seems like a great buff and I tried to work it into a list. Overall though, heavens is one of the weaker lores. Fire is too, though the two spells I wanted for my list are the flaming sword of ruin and the remains in play cloak.

If you like idea of blowing things up then these are good choices, and your opponents will appreciate that you have chosen weaker options than all the initiative test ones.

You should also consider high magic. Flames of the Phoenix is a great spell in 8th, and then you can choose between arrow attraction, 5+ ward, or a decent missile which I suspect would be your choice. You then also get drain magic for free, so this is actually a good choice of lores if you are going with just a level two; cast two damage spells and then drain magic to weaken your opponent's next magic phase.

Treadhead_1st
05-01-2011, 00:13
Harmonic Convergence seems like a great buff and I tried to work it into a list. Overall though, heavens is one of the weaker lores. Fire is too, though the two spells I wanted for my list are the flaming sword of ruin and the remains in play cloak.

If you like idea of blowing things up then these are good choices, and your opponents will appreciate that you have chosen weaker options than all the initiative test ones.

You should also consider high magic. Flames of the Phoenix is a great spell in 8th, and then you can choose between arrow attraction, 5+ ward, or a decent missile which I suspect would be your choice. You then also get drain magic for free, so this is actually a good choice of lores if you are going with just a level two; cast two damage spells and then drain magic to weaken your opponent's next magic phase.

Thanks!

I had considered High Magic - I think I'll opt for it if I go back to using a Level 2 (at games above 2000 points I take more than one Wizard, but I am of the opinion that at 2000-or-less having more than 4 levels of magic is far too expensive).

Just another quick question - if I have the Ring of Fury, and I then roll Fury of Khaine spell on the High Magic lore, can I cast the spell twice in one turn (as one is the casting wizard and the other is the bound item)? A quick browse through the rulebook didn't reveal anything, but I'm still getting to grips with where everything is in that monster.

Hashulaman
05-01-2011, 00:25
I'm taking a list with no archmage, just Eltharion and another level 2 along with the BSB, can I do well with only 2 level 2s? Or is it mandatory to go with an archmage?

smithers
05-01-2011, 00:49
Thanks!

I had considered High Magic - I think I'll opt for it if I go back to using a Level 2 (at games above 2000 points I take more than one Wizard, but I am of the opinion that at 2000-or-less having more than 4 levels of magic is far too expensive).

Just another quick question - if I have the Ring of Fury, and I then roll Fury of Khaine spell on the High Magic lore, can I cast the spell twice in one turn (as one is the casting wizard and the other is the bound item)? A quick browse through the rulebook didn't reveal anything, but I'm still getting to grips with where everything is in that monster.

I've wanted to clarify that question. I think the answer is "no" because the rule is that a wizard cannot cast the same spell more than once. Even though it's a bound, the spell is the same, and there's a rule about bound spells being identical to regular ones "in all other respects" which seemed to cover this question.

I was wondering about this in the context of a dragon wizard wearing the fireball ring and decided against it but I'm not 100% sure.

Oh, and sorry for misreading your post; I thought you were going with a level 2. If you do take an archmage then be sure to take level 4 upgrade; it's not just the spell of course but the +1 to cast/dispel is equivalent to a 70pt magic item :)

Also, if you are taking a lvl 4 don't overlook the cheap silver wand. If you are rolling 5 spells you are probably going to get what you want out of any lore. Unless there is one that you absolutely must have then I think this is a better buy than the more expenisive choose-your-spells item.

Tarian
05-01-2011, 02:28
I'm taking a list with no archmage, just Eltharion and another level 2 along with the BSB, can I do well with only 2 level 2s? Or is it mandatory to go with an archmage?

It's not necessary to take an Archmage (my Caledor list takes 2 2s, and does alright, though both take High Magic for Drain Magic) and getting into CC fast is important.

enyoss
05-01-2011, 03:53
And the most awesome advantage of the lion chariot:
You still strike with strength 6 and 5 in following rounds of close combat, when the dragon princes will impress no one with there strength 3 attacks.

One advantage the Princes have in the first round though is that all misses can (probably) be re-rolled, which isn't the case with the Lion creature attacks. It's somewhat made up for by the impact hits, but is probably still a point worth making (I'm just wary because I always seem to roll a one for those impact hits :)).

Pulstar
05-01-2011, 13:37
I went back and looked closer at the Lion chariot stat line, and deiced to make both Lion ones. For no other reason they the are so much cooler then the normal one.

Why get pulled around by horses when you can ride in style behind two angry cats.

Trains_Get_Robbed
05-01-2011, 14:27
Why just have a mounted unit of White Lions? :D

kaulem
05-01-2011, 14:48
Sorry this can't be a clear answer, and some blase posters would say "don't take X, Y or Z", but I feel that everything has a place in a certain list - there is no strict do/don't criteria (apart from sticking to Force Organisation restrictions ;))

I concur... I own many armies, and the high elves are one of the rare ones that most builds are good and that victory is determined mainly on the battle-field and not on the army sheet.

Of course, some builds are better than others (mostly depending on who you play against) but most units are good and perform their function well... you just have to know how to use them to their advantage as they are quite fragile.

Winterfell
07-01-2011, 05:13
I've got 20 archers. Should they always be ranked in two ranks of ten for the ability to fire all their bows or would four ranks of five be beneficial sometimes?

Pointy Headed Elven Paladin
07-01-2011, 05:40
I've got 20 archers. Should they always be ranked in two ranks of ten for the ability to fire all their bows or would four ranks of five be beneficial sometimes?

2 groups of 10 should be sufficient. When I first started playing 8th I was using groups of 20 in two ranks thinking it would cause more damage at range but I've found that sometimes it was hard to manuver these units since they were 10 man frontage. the 5x2 frontage is great because:

1) they take up less space and wheel on a dime.
2) Can easily occupy higher ground like hills that the longer frontage units have difficultly with.
3) Can act as "detachments" for bigger regiments like spearmen/LSG or the like to re-direct charges or cause disruptions by charging the opposing units in the flanks if the opposing unit is already engaged with one of your regiments (as they are often overlooked as lesser threats by less experience players).

Pointy Headed Elven Paladin
07-01-2011, 05:41
Why just have a mounted unit of White Lions? :D

I have one of those!!! (with experimental rules too). :evilgrin:

Trains_Get_Robbed
07-01-2011, 06:16
^^^ I like it, same here (only with my close friends though).

I've literally have been hard pressed to make it my games closer with my opponets (either they are new to fantasy, or are just tactically dumb) without 'handing' them the game through 'tactical' kindness on my part.

Although a Dragon is still I guess mean, in the two games I have played with it so far, it hasn't faired as well as a LvL 4 A.M has. I still have magic in my list, though minimal. This being said, in your opinions do you find Dragons to be nice enough that it is a tone down in a list, or is it still mean?

Treadhead_1st
07-01-2011, 08:02
I've got 20 archers. Should they always be ranked in two ranks of ten for the ability to fire all their bows or would four ranks of five be beneficial sometimes?

If you are going for a block of 20, deploy them in 10x2 but as combat approaches reform them to 5x4 so you have a bit more staying power.


2 groups of 10 should be sufficient. When I first started playing 8th I was using groups of 20 in two ranks thinking it would cause more damage at range but I've found that sometimes it was hard to manuver these units since they were 10 man frontage. the 5x2 frontage is great because:

1) they take up less space and wheel on a dime.
2) Can easily occupy higher ground like hills that the longer frontage units have difficultly with.
3) Can act as "detachments" for bigger regiments like spearmen/LSG or the like to re-direct charges or cause disruptions by charging the opposing units in the flanks if the opposing unit is already engaged with one of your regiments (as they are often overlooked as lesser threats by less experience players).

Whilst the above are excellent points, a unit of 20 is incredibly robust and with a Musician can use the "free reform" to alter their frontage from 10-wide to 5x4 as a threatening unit approaches - if you include a Standard and Light Armour (not usually accepted as good upgrades), then the unit can be quite a terror to Fast Cavalry and the like (it is a bit more survivable against shooting and CC attacks from horses, and starts with +4 Combat Resolution as well as having ASF to take one or two opponents out before they can strike). It's an excellent unit to secure the flank of an advancing combat line.

So units of 20 do see some deployment in my army.

2x10 offers greater flexibility, as if a target dies after 10 shots then you can shoot a second, the enemy has to split fire/charges to remove your shooting and so on; however I have personally found that 10 bowmen rarely achieve much so I am shooting both units at one target anyway, and that if 10 are engaged in Close Combat then they can have issues against even the lightest of opponents.

Chiungalla
07-01-2011, 08:28
then the unit can be quite a terror to Fast Cavalry and the like

High elf archers are always a terror to fast cavalry...

Maarten K
07-01-2011, 10:02
High elf archers are ONLY a terror to fast cavalry...

Chiungalla
07-01-2011, 10:42
That's not true.

There are a lot of units around in the warhammer universe, which are not very tough in relation to there point costs. All kind of elves spring to the mind, but there are demons as well (bloodletters and demonettes), skaven weapon teams, ogres, e.t.c.

Just don't shoot on orcs, goblins, skaven slaves or anything with high armor value, and expect to do a good bargain with archers. That's not there job.

Treadhead_1st
07-01-2011, 11:39
That's not true.

There are a lot of units around in the warhammer universe, which are not very tough in relation to there point costs. All kind of elves spring to the mind, but there are demons as well (bloodletters and demonettes), skaven weapon teams, ogres, e.t.c.

Just don't shoot on orcs, goblins, skaven slaves or anything with high armor value, and expect to do a good bargain with archers. That's not there job.

Indeed - though shooting at those mentioned units can be viable too - Arrer Boyz are quite good in this edition, and removing a ranged threat to our more valuable Elves is always a good idea. It may not be much damage done, but it reduces the amount of attacks coming our way. Empire Handgunner detachments are perfect targets, for example.

Goblins and Slaves can also be viable targets - if they have an extra rank compared to your Spearmen, it may be worthwhile peppering them with shots to attempt to remove a rank, or at least damage it - as such things are counted *after* combat, a few shooting casualties plus whatever the Spearmen do is likely to mean the opposing unit is no longer Steadfast, and thus more susceptible to suffering penalties on their usually poor leadership (assuming you can also deal with the BSB and/or General).

With the Banner of Eternal Flame (and ideally a Mage nearby to grant Curse of Arrow Attraction) they can also kill a Hydra or Hell Pit Abomination before it closes (or even once it has closed, given it should have 1-2 wounds left and ASF from 10-20 Archer close-combat attacks. It's obviously not an *efficient* way to kill a Hydra/HPA, but it does grant another *option*. Combine a small unit with Flaming attacks and a Bolt Thrower or two and you can eliminate some of the nastiest monsters in the game at range (this came as a bit of a surprise to me given the poor reputation both Archers and RBTs have, and the internet-fear of the Hydra/HPA).

Of course I guess this is not for every army - it works with mine as I am quite reliant on Spearmen (just a unit of White Lions and a unit of Silverhelms + Character to hammer the enemy hard) and so need *something* that can solve the issues I have highlighted in this post.

Hashulaman
07-01-2011, 19:52
To be honest if I wanted to go shooty, 2 units of Sea guard and 2 of Archers depending on the size of the game. That way when the Enemy is within 24 inches i rain down alot of S3 hits, not much but I go by the saying "If you throw enough dice at the problem it will go away."

karse88
07-01-2011, 20:22
eeehm, was just wondering... magic banners, when du i "pop" my "Banner of the World Dragon"?? before he casts the spell or after the dices have b'n rolled?
To roll for CotHR 25+ there is a great chance to roll double 6', and the banner is revealed after, that would make a great advantage!

Maarten K
07-01-2011, 21:20
After the spell has been cast: the banner makes the unit immune to spell effects, it doesn't stop the caster from actuallly casting it.

karse88
08-01-2011, 00:25
that makes sense, but should the caster know that the unit are immune? like "the unit carrying this item, causes fear", you ussually don't say that in the first round of combat? do you?... i dont know! :b

Pointy Headed Elven Paladin
08-01-2011, 07:02
that makes sense, but should the caster know that the unit are immune? like "the unit carrying this item, causes fear", you ussually don't say that in the first round of combat? do you?... i dont know! :b

I don't think so as you're not suppose to know what magic items a unit has (including standards) until they come into play. My friend that plays OK never tell me what unit has the Runemaw standard until I cast a successful spell at said unit. So the same can be said for the Banner of the World Dragon. :shifty:

Quannum
08-01-2011, 11:12
Agreed with above. Part of the high price of the BOTWD is mitigated by the fact that it may have caused your opponent to roll a lot of wasted dice.

Don't count on it happening too often though...if I saw a HE army with a unit of PG, Archmage and a BSB, I'd have a pretty good idea of where the BOTWD was.

Q

RMacDeezy
08-01-2011, 13:12
Part of the high price of the BOTWD is mitigated by the fact that it may have caused your opponent to roll a lot of wasted dice.

Don't count on it happening too often though...if I saw a HE army with a unit of PG, Archmage and a BSB, I'd have a pretty good idea of where the BOTWD was.

Q

actually, i think part of the high price of the banner is mitigated by the fact that its stupidly good ;)

and yes, this unit should be ubiquitous in HE armies

Winterfell
08-01-2011, 22:59
Can someone give me a good reason to build the Tiranoc Chariot rather than the Lion Chariot?

Look wise the Lion Chariot really does it for me but if the Tiranoc Chariot is superior I would not mind taking it.

Chiungalla
08-01-2011, 23:06
The tiranoc is very much cheaper pointwise, which makes it a hard call.
We had a discussion about this topic a couple of pages ago. In the end it's a matter of taste.

Trains_Get_Robbed
09-01-2011, 00:22
I don't see the incentive on the banner of the world dragon, as it takes away precious unit buffs. For me, I only take in 3,000 games and up in which I have a Horde of S.M/W.L and its worth it not have them swept off into obilvion.

monkeydrum
10-01-2011, 13:25
Don't like the BoTWD as the bsb is very squishy and is a lot of points for two wound toughness 3 character and at most you can give him is a 4+ armour save not a lot of help when your unit is being hit by artillery, and rather keep the bsb alive. :cool:

karse88
10-01-2011, 16:18
Option 2-Dragon Armour, Charmed Shield, Star Lance, Great Weapon. [B]

don't know if it has been said, but at page 173 it says "a character that has a magic close combat weapon cannot use any other close combat weapons", so to drop the lance would be difficult

karse88
10-01-2011, 16:19
Yeah, the Chicken is the Great Eagle mount. The reason I choose him over a greater beast is that he adds an additional wound to our Noble and he isn't too expensive.

Great weapon and ward is pretty good. I just think he can offer so much more potential than that though. For example, here are a few loadouts i'm considering:

Option 1-Dragon Armour, Great Weapon, Shield of Ptolos (1+ Armour Save against Shooting!), Guardian Phoenix. 199pt
Option 2-Dragon Armour, Charmed Shield, Star Lance, Great Weapon. 194pt
Option 3-Dragon Armour, Charmed Shield, Radiant Gem of Hoeth, Great Weapon. 199pt

Option 1 - Great all-rounder. Takes away the optimal Guardian Phoenix off your BSB but means he can survive pretty much all small-arms fire and the odd cannon shot. Good against warmachines, weapon teams, general support.

Option 2 - The sole-character killer. He'll take down a lot of characters in close combat. No ward means he can't deal with much shooting or prolonged combat so he's really a true glass cannon (aren't they all..). Still, he can hit hard the first round, drop the lance and take up the Great Weapon to finish off whatever he's fighting. Good against sneaky solo characters (Solo-Slann, WoC Mage on disk etc.) as well as warmachines (a bit overkill!) and the usual riff-raff.

Option 3 - The Knight Mage. This one is more of a mobile character sniper as well as a warmachine slayer. Take the usual Death (Spirit Leech) and he can position himself in the optimal position to snipe away every turn (and with LD9 ain't too bad at it). Lack of good save means he will be vulnerable so I would suggest being careful with him around a lot of shooting. Good against character (mage) sniping, warmachine etc.

So, thoughts?

taken from this tread :) - sorry

Desert Rain
11-01-2011, 10:05
Can someone give me a good reason to build the Tiranoc Chariot rather than the Lion Chariot?

Look wise the Lion Chariot really does it for me but if the Tiranoc Chariot is superior I would not mind taking it.
I guess that's mostly a matter of preference. I've always used a tiranoc chariot. It's cheap, fast and packs enough punch to aid my other units if they need some extra power. The lion one packs a greater punch, but it's also more than 50% more expensive, and not much more durable.

Pointy Headed Elven Paladin
11-01-2011, 16:17
don't know if it has been said, but at page 173 it says "a character that has a magic close combat weapon cannot use any other close combat weapons", so to drop the lance would be difficult

Except with the Star Lance it also follows all the normal rules for lances. In the BRB it states lances can only be used in the first round of combat and only if the figure is mounted and has charged. So there are 3 instances when you can use the Great Weapon over the Star Lance:

1) if the character gets charged
2) if the character is riding a monsterous creature that is killed out from under him
3) In subsequent close combat phases after the character has charged.

I will admit though I think this is probably a loophole because of the way the wording of the star lance description works with the current rule for how lances work in 8th Ed. A FAQ will probably be needed to straighten it out IMO.

karse88
11-01-2011, 16:41
arh.. get it... my bad... but after i found the "*" in the BRB i don't find it confusing.. i belive its a better lance and thats it?

smithers
11-01-2011, 17:39
arh.. get it... my bad... but after i found the "*" in the BRB i don't find it confusing.. i belive its a better lance and thats it?

I was really hoping they would FAQ this, as I can see running into opponents who will insist on the "I'm using this one" rule.

Also, don't forget that Brettonians have their own special rule that allows them to continue using their magic lances.

Treadhead_1st
11-01-2011, 20:30
I was really hoping they would FAQ this, as I can see running into opponents who will insist on the "I'm using this one" rule.

Also, don't forget that Brettonians have their own special rule that allows them to continue using their magic lances.

I thought they had a special rule that allows them to use a Lance on the first turn of combat and then a magic weapon (that isn't a lance) in the second?

karse88
11-01-2011, 21:49
i get what your saying smithers, but it states that it uses the rules for lances?!... I think it kinda simple then... the exception is a better str. and zero amour save - but that has nothing to do with the line "this weapon follows the rules for lances"

Hashulaman
11-01-2011, 22:47
Don't like the BoTWD as the bsb is very squishy and is a lot of points for two wound toughness 3 character and at most you can give him is a 4+ armour save not a lot of help when your unit is being hit by artillery, and rather keep the bsb alive. :cool:

I concur, I need a real good reason to leave my T3 BSB vulnerable as only an elf can be. 2+ armor or a 4+ ward makes him far more survivable and a regular BSB is still just as good with the re rolls.

Pointy Headed Elven Paladin
12-01-2011, 06:19
I'm sure this has already been ask before but I don't feel like searching through 70+ pages of HE tactica to find it. What are best ways to combat a magic heavy Lizardman Army with High Elves? How about one that predominately close combat?

enrgie
12-01-2011, 07:19
I concur, I need a real good reason to leave my T3 BSB vulnerable as only an elf can be. 2+ armor or a 4+ ward makes him far more survivable and a regular BSB is still just as good with the re rolls.

While I agree with you, I still run the BSB coupled with the BoWD to deliver my so call deathstar unit - keeping it safe from Magic during the 2 turns of movement. I basically run the BSB with a unit of 25 White Lions (3+ against shooting, no magic can hurt them, strikes first in melee with rerolls). :)

Trains_Get_Robbed
12-01-2011, 07:34
Pointy Headed Paladin, I have just been in contact recently with someone in p.m, as well have helped with numerous L.M troubles. L.M, Demons, seem to be my specialty -thats not bad :D

What specifically were you having trouble with? Outside the generic bulid of Slann Lore of Life T.G etc. . . .?

By close combat, do you mean Old Blood and Carnie list, or still Slann movtivated?

Pointy Headed Elven Paladin
12-01-2011, 07:40
Pointy Headed Paladin, I have just been in contact recently with someone in p.m, as well have helped with numerous L.M troubles. L.M, Demons, seem to be my specialty -thats not bad :D

What specifically were you having trouble with? Outside the generic bulid of Slann Lore of Life T.G etc. . . .?

By close combat, do you mean Old Blood and Carnie list, or still Slann movtivated?

Just general tactics to be aware of when facing Lizardmen (I haven't played them yet but there was a potential challanger in my current gaming hangout that rolled over my friend's OK army. Unfortunately I wasn't there to witness the LM player's style of play). Since I'm not sure what the current builds are I guess something along the lines of Slann/Temple guards with Stegadons and heavy close combat elements. Although I'm also interested in what type of builds that are generally used and what HE players use to counter with. Specifically at 2000 pts. Any help you can provide would be appreciated.

Hashulaman
12-01-2011, 19:57
I don't think so as you're not suppose to know what magic items a unit has (including standards) until they come into play. My friend that plays OK never tell me what unit has the Runemaw standard until I cast a successful spell at said unit. So the same can be said for the Banner of the World Dragon. :shifty:

The Banner of the World Dragon I believe costs more than 50 points and therefore can only be taken by the BSB, so your oppnent may not know you have it, but knows where it would be if they think you might have taken it.

Liancour
12-01-2011, 22:46
I'm sure this has already been ask before but I don't feel like searching through 70+ pages of HE tactica to find it. What are best ways to combat a magic heavy Lizardman Army with High Elves? How about one that predominately close combat?

Vortex shard... Expensive but powerful against heavy magic army, you just have to choose wisely which magic phase nullify.
Annulian crystal can be quite useful but won't be enough alone.

If you like to experiment strange things, try a prince on eagle (or anything that can fly far away) with the null stone. I don't think it will be effective enough (because most opponent can move away form 6" before casting spell) but if you are lucky enough to block the Slann and his guard, it can be fun.
Not effective, fun.

Pulstar
17-01-2011, 15:34
I go away for the weekend and this thread drops to the second page. That can't happen.

So my question for the day is what do you thing is better. A unit of 5 DP (for 150) or a Lion Chariot for 140? This question came up a few pages ago when I asked if I should make my Chariots Lion or normal.

DP's have 10 ASF STR 5 attacks on the charge. (Str 3 if they get charged).
The LC have d6 STR4 impact hits + 2 ASF STR 6 attacks plus 4 Str 4 on a charge.

DP's are T3 but have a 2+ AS as well as a 2++ ward save vs fire. 5 wounds but if they take any wounds and break, they can't rally.


LC has T4 with a 4+ AS. 4 wounds which all need to be removed before it loses any effectiveness. (Q. If it breaks can it rally?)

And which lore do you like better? (and which unit looks better)

P.S. Pointy - can you post a pick of your Lion Cav?

Chiungalla
17-01-2011, 15:53
The LC have d6 STR4 impact hits + 2 ASF STR 6 attacks plus 4 Str 4 on a charge.

The impact hits are strength 5, and the attacks of the lions are strength 5, too.

Treadhead_1st
17-01-2011, 16:25
I go away for the weekend and this thread drops to the second page. That can't happen.

So my question for the day is what do you thing is better. A unit of 5 DP (for 150) or a Lion Chariot for 140? This question came up a few pages ago when I asked if I should make my Chariots Lion or normal.

DP's have 10 ASF STR 5 attacks on the charge. (Str 3 if they get charged).
The LC have d6 STR4 impact hits + 2 ASF STR 6 attacks plus 4 Str 4 on a charge.

DP's are T3 but have a 2+ AS as well as a 2++ ward save vs fire. 5 wounds but if they take any wounds and break, they can't rally.


LC has T4 with a 4+ AS. 4 wounds which all need to be removed before it loses any effectiveness. (Q. If it breaks can it rally?)

And which lore do you like better? (and which unit looks better)

P.S. Pointy - can you post a pick of your Lion Cav?

They are hard units to compare, really. The Chariot can work well assuming that your opponent doesn't have many war-machines (Cannons are still their bane, even if it's no longer auto-kill), or if the opponent doesn't have much access to flaming weaponry.

The Dragon Princes are also faster, given that chariots can't march (IIRC) and so can get into positions to attack the enemy and eliminate back-field units that little bit more reliably; however the Chariot makes a much better flanking-unit when paired with a ranked-up unit engaging the enemy's front - the smaller frontage versus the Knights means less attacks back and the likely number of kills from the Impact Hits/creature attacks can help break the enemy unit's Steadfast should your Spearmen be outnumbered, as well as generating some good combat resolution. Yet the Knights can bog down enemy units thanks to their high Armour Saves, which can be useful in itself as it can prevent an enemy unit from positioning itself in a threatening position to your force (even if the Knights are left swinging at Str3 against chaff for the rest of the game, not having your line broken and rolled by a flanking unit is a worthy combat to engage in).

So I guess it depends what you list needs most - if it has infantry that needs additional hitting power and you already have manoeuvrable cavalry elements, the Lion Chariot is likely to be a better choice; but if you find yourself on the wrong end of missile/war-machine fire then having some more cavalry is likely to be a better investment.

luntan
17-01-2011, 18:30
I go away for the weekend and this thread drops to the second page. That can't happen.

So my question for the day is what do you thing is better. A unit of 5 DP (for 150) or a Lion Chariot for 140? This question came up a few pages ago when I asked if I should make my Chariots Lion or normal.

DP's have 10 ASF STR 5 attacks on the charge. (Str 3 if they get charged).
The LC have d6 STR4 impact hits + 2 ASF STR 6 attacks plus 4 Str 4 on a charge.

DP's are T3 but have a 2+ AS as well as a 2++ ward save vs fire. 5 wounds but if they take any wounds and break, they can't rally.


LC has T4 with a 4+ AS. 4 wounds which all need to be removed before it loses any effectiveness. (Q. If it breaks can it rally?)

And which lore do you like better? (and which unit looks better)

P.S. Pointy - can you post a pick of your Lion Cav?

DPīs canīt rally if less then 25% of the unit is left. So if they are more then 1 left they can rally (if starting size was 5).
A chariot can always rally, it dosenīt matter if it has died some wounds.

TheAmazingMikey
17-01-2011, 20:11
Hi guys.

I'm just getting into WFB and have decided to take up High Elves. I'm still learning the rules and haven't yet played a game but I'm looking for a little advice on what units to get. For Christmas I was bought the Army book, Island of Blood and a box of Phoenix Guard. I want to take the army up to 2000 points. What should I buy next? I want the army to be reasonably strong but more importantly fun. I'd prefer not to duplicate units where possible as I like variation.

Any help?

Trains_Get_Robbed
18-01-2011, 00:21
^^^ Another box of P.G to make 20, and then another either Island of Blood (split contents with friend) or a 2 Boxes of Spears, to give you enough core.

Shoot for 20-25 Spears and 20 or so LSG in a 2,000 point list, combined with a Mage and a BsB and with the P.G, your done boom.

Pointy Headed Elven Paladin
19-01-2011, 06:37
I go away for the weekend and this thread drops to the second page. That can't happen.

So my question for the day is what do you thing is better. A unit of 5 DP (for 150) or a Lion Chariot for 140? This question came up a few pages ago when I asked if I should make my Chariots Lion or normal.

DP's have 10 ASF STR 5 attacks on the charge. (Str 3 if they get charged).
The LC have d6 STR4 impact hits + 2 ASF STR 6 attacks plus 4 Str 4 on a charge.

DP's are T3 but have a 2+ AS as well as a 2++ ward save vs fire. 5 wounds but if they take any wounds and break, they can't rally.


LC has T4 with a 4+ AS. 4 wounds which all need to be removed before it loses any effectiveness. (Q. If it breaks can it rally?)

And which lore do you like better? (and which unit looks better)

P.S. Pointy - can you post a pick of your Lion Cav?

I wish I could but I don't own a digital camera (also they aren't even painted yet but they have been play tested a few times).

As for your questions of DPs vs. Lion Chariots I'm starting to think the Lion Chariots might be the better deal assuming your not playing against Hydras or Chaos. The built in Toughness value of 5 already makes the unit harder to wound in shooting/close combat than the DPs Toughness value of 3. Assuming armor saves are negated and aren't flaming attacks the chariot is actually better for the cost.

In terms of close combat the chariot wins again with 1d6 impact hits (Although you might have to clarify this as I thought the chariots have STR 5 for impact hits) with 4 str 5 & 2 str 6 which is consistant in the following rounds of combat vs. 10-11 str 5 attacks then 10-11 str 3 attacks in following rounds. Also the chariot can always rally as it's essentially a unit of 1 (like great eagles).

The dragon princes only advantages are they can march move, have rank/standard bonuses for CR, have a 2+ armor save / 2++ against flaming attacks, & they can carry magic items but then the comparison is no longer apt when you start to included the extras.

For astestic appearance I do like the DPs more though.

Pointy Headed Elven Paladin
19-01-2011, 07:45
Hi guys.

I'm just getting into WFB and have decided to take up High Elves. I'm still learning the rules and haven't yet played a game but I'm looking for a little advice on what units to get. For Christmas I was bought the Army book, Island of Blood and a box of Phoenix Guard. I want to take the army up to 2000 points. What should I buy next? I want the army to be reasonably strong but more importantly fun. I'd prefer not to duplicate units where possible as I like variation.

Any help?

I'd probably get this in the following order if you're not planning on gettin another IoB set or ordering the plastic LSG from GW:

Prince/BSB kit
2x Plastic Spearmen box sets or 1x Spearmen & 1x Archer box set
2x Great Eagles
2x White Lions box sets
1x Phoenix Guards box set

I think that could get you to 2000 pts. quite comfortably.

Imrik-Dragonlord
20-01-2011, 07:53
in a 2500 pointish list, if i choose for fluff reasons not to take reavers or shadow warriors for warmachine hunting, how many great eagles is a safe amount? 2? 3? or more?

Lex
20-01-2011, 14:29
I wish I could but I don't own a digital camera (also they aren't even painted yet but they have been play tested a few times).

As for your questions of DPs vs. Lion Chariots I'm starting to think the Lion Chariots might be the better deal assuming your not playing against Hydras or Chaos. The built in Toughness value of 5 already makes the unit harder to wound in shooting/close combat than the DPs Toughness value of 3. Assuming armor saves are negated and aren't flaming attacks the chariot is actually better for the cost.

In terms of close combat the chariot wins again with 1d6 impact hits (Although you might have to clarify this as I thought the chariots have STR 5 for impact hits) with 4 str 5 & 2 str 6 which is consistant in the following rounds of combat vs. 10-11 str 5 attacks then 10-11 str 3 attacks in following rounds. Also the chariot can always rally as it's essentially a unit of 1 (like great eagles).

The dragon princes only advantages are they can march move, have rank/standard bonuses for CR, have a 2+ armor save / 2++ against flaming attacks, & they can carry magic items but then the comparison is no longer apt when you start to included the extras.

For astestic appearance I do like the DPs more though.

The Lion Chariot is only T 4 and 4+ save. That, combined with an inability to march means you don't even need war machines to take it out. If it were as good as a Cold One Chariot, I would take it. If I had to choose, I would take DP's, but I definitely prefer infantry over cavalry for High Elves.


in a 2500 pointish list, if i choose for fluff reasons not to take reavers or shadow warriors for warmachine hunting, how many great eagles is a safe amount? 2? 3? or more?

Nevermind for fluff reasons, even for game reasons those units aren't as effective as Great Eagles. I do well with 2 at 2500. I'm not sure that a 3rd would help my list anymore than any other 50 pts in my list, but results may vary with your list. I definitely wouldn't take fewer than 2.

Pointy Headed Elven Paladin
21-01-2011, 02:55
The Lion Chariot is only T 4 and 4+ save. That, combined with an inability to march means you don't even need war machines to take it out. If it were as good as a Cold One Chariot, I would take it. If I had to choose, I would take DP's, but I definitely prefer infantry over cavalry for High Elves.


Be that as it may (as far as the stat line is concerned) as I've outline in my previous post the Lion Chariot in close combat still has better damage potential than the DPs once they get into close combat and in subsequent combat rounds. The DPs get better armor saves and that about it without the additional upgrades. The LC unit causes fear and can potential win against units of 15-20 models with avg saves & toughness values vs. what the DPs can dish out.

Pointy Headed Elven Paladin
21-01-2011, 03:06
in a 2500 pointish list, if i choose for fluff reasons not to take reavers or shadow warriors for warmachine hunting, how many great eagles is a safe amount? 2? 3? or more?

Unless your opponent is heavily invested in shooting I wouldn't take more than 2 per 1000 pts. so at 2500 pts. 4 would be the right amount depending your tactical needs.

Even with a opponent that has a lot of range attacks if you have multiple great eagles simultaneously charging a single unit with range weapons they can only stand and shoot one of them.

At 2000 pts. I usually take 2. They are useful for redirecting charges and holding up units in close combat (assuming you're charging in from the flanks or rear) to give your units time to reform and face the units the great eagles are already engaged in.

Chiungalla
21-01-2011, 06:10
I would suggest taking as many eagles as you can!
They are always worth there points. If there are no war machines and shooting units to hunt any more, you can still use them to hunt wizards and slow down your opponents progress.

That are 200 well used points even in a 2.000 point game.

Pulstar
21-01-2011, 13:25
So I was playing around with a 2500 point list and I was going to a stranded Lv4, Lv2, and a BSB as my characters.

But you can get 2 Lv4 in 2500 if you keep there gear total under 105 for the both. If you run you general with a +4 ward and the silver wand and then give the other the seerstaff (or Jewel or miscast staff)

So any reason not to take a second Level 4 over the level 2? (Short of the 125 points which still is a good buy for all the extra's you get with the level 4 vs the level2)

Trains_Get_Robbed
21-01-2011, 15:24
^^^ I run instead a White Sword Lord for the LD bonus, and utility against anyone outside of WoC charcters.

King_Pash
21-01-2011, 15:25
Well firstly, it's more expensive and you're not really getting your points-worth for that second L4. Since you only have a fixed amount of power dice per phase, the only thing you're really getting with your additional L4 is more spells to chose from and a bit more balls with your dispel attempts. Usually, a L4 and a L2 with Seerstaff are enough to make any magic combo effective and ensure you maximise your magic phase.

Pulstar
21-01-2011, 16:16
The big thing isn't so much the spells you do cast, but the spells you can cast.

With duel LV4 you have 9 spells. ( w/ silver wand) and with the banner of sorcery you should have more casting dice then he has dispel dice.

If you give a mage the seerstaff and life lore. (Throne, Dwellers, and the two of the reg, T buff, regrow)

The the sliver wand mage takes shadow lore. He is going to either Pit or OR. (And maybe both)

So what is he saving his dispel dice for? Throne? Dwellers? OR on the 30 spearmen that just ran into combat? While he's looking out for those spells are you buff you self to high heaven and debuffing the crap out of him?

Low magic rolls always hurt you, but it means that he should have less dispel dice as well. With the banner and +4 to all your casting you can push him on your casting phase.

Pointy Headed Elven Paladin
25-01-2011, 11:04
I'm thinking of putting together a Tiranoc Windrider Army (since I'm planning on coverting a few more War Lions for mounted cavalry sp I will probably end up with something like 6 plastic Tiranoc chariots in addition to the 3 5th Ed. metal ones I already own). So my question to you HE vets would this be an effective army list for about 3000 pts. (this is roughly my idea of what the army will contain but I haven't fully kitted out the characters and I'm not sure about keeping the Phoenix Guard)?:

Prince on Great Eagle w/Bow of Seafarer
Archmage on Great Eagle (Lore of Beasts)
Hero on Great Eagle w/Reaver Bow
2nd Lvl. Mage on Great Eagle (Lore of Shadow)
BSB with standard setup
2x Archer Regiments of 20 Archers
2x Archer "detachments" of 10 Archers
4x Tiranoc Chariots
1x Phoenix Guard Regiment of 14 Phoenix Guard
6x Great Eagles

Liancour
25-01-2011, 14:56
I don't see this effective at all.
When the time of close combat will come (and it will in 3000 pts), you'll get nearly nothing to hold. 14 Phoenix Guard are way to few to make it.

The only exception is if you play a scenario where players have to control many distant places to win.

Pointy Headed Elven Paladin
26-01-2011, 01:17
I don't see this effective at all.
When the time of close combat will come (and it will in 3000 pts), you'll get nearly nothing to hold. 14 Phoenix Guard are way to few to make it.

The only exception is if you play a scenario where players have to control many distant places to win.

Well the idea of the wind rider army is not to stay static so I don't plan on having long drawn close combat engagements (which is why I'm not too keen on having the phoenix guard in the force). Should I change them to a unit of Silver Helms instead for some mobile CQB punch?

Chiungalla
26-01-2011, 05:53
I don't see this effective at all.
When the time of close combat will come (and it will in 3000 pts), you'll get nearly nothing to hold. 14 Phoenix Guard are way to few to make it.

And he has nearly nothing to loose in those close combats as well.


Well idea of the wind rider army is not to stay static so I don't plan on having long drawn close combat engagements (which is why I'm not too keen on having the phoenix guard in the force). Should I change them to a unit of Silver Helms instead for some mobile CQB punch?

I would prefer either dragon princes, lion chariots, a unit of 14 white lions or two units of 7 swordmasters. Always if the alternative would be to take silver helms.

Pointy Headed Elven Paladin
26-01-2011, 05:56
I would prefer either dragon princes, lion chariots, a unit of 14 white lions or two units of 7 swordmasters. Always if the alternative would be to take silver helms.

I can't disagree with you there however I wanted to keep it Tiranoc specific which is why I didn't include any Ellryian Reavers as well. More chariots then perhaps?

Chiungalla
26-01-2011, 06:03
I can't disagree with you there however I wanted to keep it Tiranoc specific which is why I didn't include any Ellryian Reavers as well. More chariots then perhaps?

More chariots I would say.

Pointy Headed Elven Paladin
26-01-2011, 06:05
More chariots I would say.

Well it a good thing HE armies are allowed 12 special choices then for grand armies. :D

Trains_Get_Robbed
26-01-2011, 08:10
Dear Lord PHEP are you playing W.E :p ?

Pointy Headed Elven Paladin
26-01-2011, 14:00
Dear Lord PHEP are you playing W.E :p ?

Funny that you mentioned that. I dug out all of my old 6th. Edition Wood Elves from storage and bought the current WE army book so I'm in the process of converting the army to 8th Ed. :rolleyes:

This is on top of trading some of my old empire army for a dark Elf army my friend wanted to get rid of and some of my 40k stuff for Bretonnian Archers & KOTR to another friend. :D

Of course now there the wind rider army I've mentioned. :eyebrows:

So except for my fledgling Bretonnian army I think I'm up to my ears in elf models! :eek:

hobbs3023
26-01-2011, 15:13
I have a 2000 point match w/ a WoC army. Your opinion for my elites... 1 eagle and 1 bolt thrower... or 3 eagles? I thought the 3 eagles could cause some issues behind his lines.

Pointy Headed Elven Paladin
27-01-2011, 03:46
I have a 2000 point match w/ a WoC army. Your opinion for my elites... 1 eagle and 1 bolt thrower... or 3 eagles? I thought the 3 eagles could cause some issues behind his lines.

Multiples of anything would be good so my vote would be for 3 eagles.

Trains_Get_Robbed
27-01-2011, 08:36
:D WOOT! My I have a Bretonnina Army, tons of unbuilt models and primed an ready to go, though I'm spying my eye on W.E.:shifty:

Don't tell my Asur, they already don't like sharing the bed with pompous human gits, at least they are pompous gits nonetheless though. :p

Trains_Get_Robbed
27-01-2011, 08:39
1 G.E and normally we hate on Bolt Thorwers here in the community, but if you have 2 then take two and spray shot that AHW Khorne unit for 3 turns, as that lone G.E sends it on a goose chase.

By the time it reaches combat, S.C.R spears should be able to handle it (the unit should be around 10 guys from 20 before your spears step in).

hobbs3023
30-01-2011, 03:02
Poll:

1800 point army
450 allowed for heroes
Facing WoC

I went w/ two 2nd level casters for heroes and have about 130 left if I wanted to add another hero.

Question: add a BSB or a bolt thrower? (currently have 0 range except for LSG)

Trains_Get_Robbed
30-01-2011, 04:12
^^^ Is this competetive? If so, there is on reason to take Lvl 2's and handicap yourself.

Desert Rain
30-01-2011, 10:19
It'd be easier to help you if you put up the whole list so that we can see what the rest of your army looks like.

hobbs3023
30-01-2011, 13:58
^^^ Is this competetive? If so, there is on reason to take Lvl 2's and handicap yourself.

Sorry... At work now so from memory:

Core: 32 lsg Full cmd

Special: 14 sm full cmd
10 pg full cmd banner of sorcery
10 dragon knights full cmd and banner (for difficult terrain)

Rare: 2 eagles
1 bolt thrower

Leaders 2 lvl 2 casters one w wand for extra spell and the staff for avoid 1st miscast (I know I'm magic hvy w 2 casters and banner)

And no it's not competitive Worried about no bsb

GenerationTerrorist
30-01-2011, 14:22
I'd turn the two Lvl2's into a single Lvl4, to be honest. Then take a BSB - They are a must.

Trains_Get_Robbed
30-01-2011, 17:29
^^^ agree with above. Also, instead of 2 eagles, just run 1, if your keen on Bolt thorwers, you may as well establish a fire base and run 2 or three, using mutlishot the entire time. Make sure to focus fire as well for a 2 turns or 3, has the ability to make mess of units like sarus etc. . . Look to drop a couple Dragon Princes, it just isn't worth the points, they will lose a guy somewhere along the way and thus their rank breaking capability, perhaps 7 instead? Spending the rest on P.G and an extra bolt thrower?

hobbs3023
30-01-2011, 17:48
^^^ agree with above. Also, instead of 2 eagles, just run 1, if your keen on Bolt thorwers, you may as well establish a fire base and run 2 or three, using mutlishot the entire time. Make sure to focus fire as well for a 2 turns or 3, has the ability to make mess of units like sarus etc. . . Look to drop a couple Dragon Princes, it just isn't worth the points, they will lose a guy somewhere along the way and thus their rank breaking capability, perhaps 7 instead? Spending the rest on P.G and an extra bolt thrower?

Thanks so much... the battle is against a friend so I have the benefit of "knowing" he's chaos. I thought picking metal lore would be kinda cheezy so was looking at life instead. His high armor/elite troops have slaughtered me in the past (against a different army) your thoughts? I thought the two eagles running around behind and/or infront may turn some troops so i could get to his flanks...

Red_Lep
30-01-2011, 22:35
I've been out of the game for a long time and I need some advice.

I am assembling my 1500 out of what I have and I almost have the list ready, I just need help with the characters. I have been told two things:

A. If you can afford a L4 Archmage, take one.
B. Take a BSB with Armor of Caledor and Guardian Phoenix/Dawn Stone(think thats the re-roll item's name)

What items should I give the Archmage and what Lore? I am thinking of Silver Wand and some kind of defense set-up, and High Magic for Curse of Arrow Attraction and Flames of the Phoenix.



The list so far is:

30 Spearmen
10 Archers

14 White Lions
5 Dragon Princes

2 Great Eagles
1 Repeater Bolt Thrower

Thanks for any help!

EnternalVoid
31-01-2011, 06:36
@Red_Lep;

Some thoughts. From your list you have 965pt already spent. This is assume the Spearmen have full command, no command on archers, and for the moment no command for the White Lions or Dragon Prince. giving you 535pt left to work with. The BSB with that set up is 168pt. I personally favor the Guardian Phoenix for that set up as I perfer a ward save just in case but more on this sortly. That leaves 367pt. The archmage, lv4, clocks in at 260pt. A heafy investment.

Personally I would give him the Seerstaff to insure you get the spells you need for your force. That would leave you at 77pt. At which point if it was me I would consider several options. I would first is put a unit champ and standard bearer in the White Lions, and then finally giving them the Banner of Sorcery. With the extra d3 power dice it will help fuel the archmage magic as you are likely going to be relying on it.

Sure the mage has no defensive items, but he can literally jump from one unit to another. Example, The turn before the white lions will likely be charged you can have the archers advance to be with in 10" of the archmage and have him leave the white lions and join the archers for protection. Or he can start in the archers and jump somewhere else once he feels threatened.

Personally at that point level though I have been instead using a lv2 Mage myself.

Desert Rain
31-01-2011, 10:56
I've used a 4th level archmage with staff of solidity and the talisman of preservation all the time since 8th came out. She has never died in any game I've played with her so far so I think that it is safe to say that it is a reliable setup. Perhaps not the most powerful but you can be pretty sure that you won't loose your mage easily.

Edit: I also strongly recommend the lore of shadows for the archmage since that lore is simply amazing and works really well with our army.

Treadhead_1st
31-01-2011, 11:17
How much are people investing in their characters, points-wise?

I've been thinking that having more troops on the field is a better option than taking a few points-heavy characters, though I can't deny that the characters bring their own abilities to the table and improve the troops we do get.

Basically, by the time you have taken a Level 4, a BSB and a Noble to boost a key unit, you have invested 455 points minimum (naked costs). That's a lot more Spearmen/Archers/Cavalry.

I'm seeing if I can get away with just a Noble and a Level 2, or a Noble and a BSB - keep the costs down, basically, in order to increase the amount of units on the field. The more models you put down the harder the enemy's target selection choices will be, and it is nice to not be constantly outnumbered by just about everyone else in the game.

Do you think that such ideas have merit, or is the Level 4/BSB just too vital to the army to ignore?

Desert Rain
31-01-2011, 15:31
I use a L.4 and a BSB in 2000 points and I believe that to be enough. The BSB is more or less mandatory and you need some magic, and a L.4 is worth every point. Together they are 498 pts and gives you 1500 points of troops in a 2000 pts army. For 2500 I'd consider a third character, most likely a Prince for the extra Ld and fighting capabilities.

Necromancer2
31-01-2011, 17:34
What would be a good force against dwarfs? (it's the only army I will be facing) 2000-2500 points

I was thinking LV4 (hit or miss gainst them-but could be fun)
lv 2
prince on chicken to warmachine hunt and flank charges.
2 blocks of spears
2 blocks of sword masters
and eagles.

I think thats close to points limit.. (I have yet to get the book and choose an army yet)

Red_Lep
31-01-2011, 19:59
Thanks for the replies!

I'm leaning more and more towards a Mage with the Seerstaff as I don't like the idea of the Archmage at this low of a points level. However, I am not sure what to do with the additional 200 points.

My list in the list forum:
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=291502

Trains_Get_Robbed
31-01-2011, 20:07
I only run 2-3 charcters at 2,000 and under, 1 at 1,000 and 3-4 at 2,500-3,000.

Avatar111x
01-02-2011, 10:43
I have found the two most useful Lores for High Elves to be Life and Shadow.


For Life who doesn't like regrowing dead Elves. Plus the Throne of Vines gives you miscast protection, which is invaluable as well as the opportunity to boost your troops T to 7 (imagine White Lions with this being charged by Chaos Knights - I've seen it and it is very, very funny).

Shadow combines well with Folaraith's Robe, allowing you to fly around and throw out hexes, as well as line up Pendulum shots. And with Mindrazor being FAQ'ed as making S equal to LD, your Spearmen will be something no one wantgs tgo tangle with.


I've been out of the game for a long time and I need some advice.

I am assembling my 1500 out of what I have and I almost have the list ready, I just need help with the characters. I have been told two things:

A. If you can afford a L4 Archmage, take one.
B. Take a BSB with Armor of Caledor and Guardian Phoenix/Dawn Stone(think thats the re-roll item's name)

What items should I give the Archmage and what Lore? I am thinking of Silver Wand and some kind of defense set-up, and High Magic for Curse of Arrow Attraction and Flames of the Phoenix.



The list so far is:

30 Spearmen
10 Archers

14 White Lions
5 Dragon Princes

2 Great Eagles
1 Repeater Bolt Thrower

Thanks for any help!

Red_Lep
01-02-2011, 17:56
Well, after trying to make a decent list without the Archmage, I decided to include the Archmage as I couldn't find a combination of models that I own(can't afford new ones at the moment) that would be as useful. Thanks for all the advice!

Treadhead_1st
01-02-2011, 22:33
I'm trying to build a mounted Noble who can pack a fair amount of punch - my plan is to have him join a large unit of Silver Helms and then use them as a hammer (Dragon Princes are more effective, but I need numbers, so the cheaper Helms work better for this).

Does this seem like a good set-up?

High Elf Noble: Great Weapon, Heavy Armour, Helm of Fortune, Guardian Phoenix & Barded Elven Steed.
163

This guy has a 2+ re-rollable armour save, followed by a 5+ ward. For offensive duties he has constant Str6, which combined with the effects of Speed of Asuryan should be quite deadly.

Is this likely to be the best I can get? I'm unfamiliar with the magic item selection from the Rulebook, however the above seems like the most potent combination for the meagre 50pt magic item allowance.

What should I do if/when I bump him up to a Prince? Vambraces seem like a good selection then (+5pts for +1 Ward over the current build? Sure, why not), but I'd have another 45pts of wargear to potentially upgrade him as well.

enyoss
02-02-2011, 00:35
I used to run a guy exactly like that in 6th edition and he was nigh on indestructible. The problem is these days that the hard cavalry unit you'd want to put him in just isn't so hard any more. Your opponent is likely to have way more ranks than you so steadfast will be a problem.

Treadhead_1st
02-02-2011, 01:04
I used to run a guy exactly like that in 6th edition and he was nigh on indestructible. The problem is these days that the hard cavalry unit you'd want to put him in just isn't so hard any more. Your opponent is likely to have way more ranks than you so steadfast will be a problem.

True - my unit comes in at 15 strong (2 Ranks), Standard, and should be quite killy on the charge - particularly if I can hit a flank. Given that ranks are calculated after combat, that'll help, as they'll be depleted.

But it will not be enough - I tend to send them after really weak units they can nuke easily, eliminating the enemy support units until my Spearmen are able to engage (or the enemy inclines themselves to engage my Spearmen). 4 ranks to the front of the enemy block, plus the Cavalry kills, wins combats.

It has its drawbacks, but I have found that cavalry - particularly of the Elven and Chaos kind - are still worth in in 8th Edition, you just have to be a bit smarter with your application (and try to make sure they hit like a sledgehammer).

enyoss
02-02-2011, 02:39
Yeah, if you avoid the really tough blocks then you might be ok I guess (I'm still not the best person to ask having not played an awful lot of 8th edition yet). I like the guy as he is cheapish, certainly cheap enough to leave points for a kitted out lord, and can be relied upon to give a good thumping without dying, especially against the types of units you describe. I was always a nice feeling having him on a flank and not having to worry about it folding without a fight :).

Trains_Get_Robbed
02-02-2011, 03:06
IMO ^^^ why not just play Brets? Tread? Thats my second army.

Pointy Headed Elven Paladin
02-02-2011, 03:55
I'm trying to build a mounted Noble who can pack a fair amount of punch - my plan is to have him join a large unit of Silver Helms and then use them as a hammer (Dragon Princes are more effective, but I need numbers, so the cheaper Helms work better for this).

Does this seem like a good set-up?

High Elf Noble: Great Weapon, Heavy Armour, Helm of Fortune, Guardian Phoenix & Barded Elven Steed.
163

This guy has a 2+ re-rollable armour save, followed by a 5+ ward. For offensive duties he has constant Str6, which combined with the effects of Speed of Asuryan should be quite deadly.

Is this likely to be the best I can get? I'm unfamiliar with the magic item selection from the Rulebook, however the above seems like the most potent combination for the meagre 50pt magic item allowance.

What should I do if/when I bump him up to a Prince? Vambraces seem like a good selection then (+5pts for +1 Ward over the current build? Sure, why not), but I'd have another 45pts of wargear to potentially upgrade him as well.

I'd probably give him the radiant gem of hoeth for those 45 pts. and choose Lore of Death for the Spirit Leech spell. Makes him a deadly character sniper that can just charge in with the rest of the cavalry.

I've been using this setup for a few games with my mounted prince on a barded elven steed:

Equipment: Great weapon, heavy armor, shield, & barded elven steed
Magic items: Radiant Gem of Hoeth, Reaver Bow, Dragonhelm, & Luckstone.
Magic Lore: Lore of Death (Spirit Leech usually but will use Purple Sun if it's available)

This gives him a 1+ save vs shooting / 2+ against close combat attacks, 2+ ward against flaming attack, 3 shots at STR 5 at 30", and the ability to cast magic and add power dice to the power pool for the other wizards to use with occasionally get a single re-roll for a failed armor save.

I usually have him within 3" of my Reaver Knights firing away with magic and his bow then contribute to close combat if needed. He has yet to be killed as my opponents is usually trying to kill the Immortal Mage most of the time with spells giving him free reign most of the time.

So far I've taken out several warmachines and monsterous creatures with him and once got the purple sun spell to work which wiped out 10 Bull Ogres off a OK Deathstar Regiment.

Treadhead_1st
02-02-2011, 04:11
IMO ^^^ why not just play Brets? Tread? Thats my second army.

Mainly because I like my infantry as well, and the Men At Arms just don't quite cut it for me (I played Brets them back in 7th for a while, when I was first getting into the game). The bulk of my armies tend to be foot troops, I just like having a strong mounted contingent to back them up.

Pointy Headed Elven Paladin
04-02-2011, 07:38
New Topic of The Week (well old topic for some veteran HE players). I'll be playing against a 3000 pts. Skaven army in a couple of weeks so I was wondering what I should be expecting and what I can do to counter it?

In the same vein my beastman opponent has finally gotten back to me and wants to play during the same week but at a lower point scale. What should be expecting from him at 3000 pts.?

Trains_Get_Robbed
04-02-2011, 08:04
I think I have said before I AND I QUOTE MYSELF!! "OmFgZgzgzg L.M are easy, I'll tell you advice later . . ."

No instead, (Skaven are a also 1/3 main specialites) I will throw some advice your way (amd every other H.E) now (some obvious, some not).

1. At first chance when in contact with the Bell kill Grey Seer and then Bell, finish rats off accordingly. This sould only be done with W.L or Okams Spearmen, and dosen't even require a second hand if its the prior, they just have to buffed a little bit.

2. Opposite with a Furnace, kill the Furnace first, as that will do the most damage, S.M are the best for this unit, as thy pump out the most attacks, and can kill rats after the Furnace is gone. Buffing is needed if 1v1 and you want to escape combat either alive or with more than a handful of bodies left.

3. Screen your expensive troops when you can if you don't have first turn. Having the W.M
shooting expensive things like S.M or Cav. units is an effective waste of points.

4. Expect every Skaven army to have a Doom Rocket/Assasian/13th Spell Power Scroll unless a paticular clan.

5. Lastly, and most importantly, TAKE OUT THE HELL PIT!!! Most people have trouble with this, (I don't ever, though. . . I don't know why) being said don't let it hit your lines!!! It will make a mess of everything, but you have its weakness, ASFFFFFFF, put flamming banner of LSG unit, and have them hit the HPA and then follow up with say a unit like P.G so that it gets not Regen, and it should die. . . W.L/S.M work best though.

With both Beastmen and Skaven, the thing is, our troops are much more elite (save for Minos) and 1v1 will clean up almost everything. Dominating the magic phase, and combat phase are key against both and a reality (shooting and movement also, but only against Beastmen). Essentially don't be afraid of isolation skirmishes, but flanks and rears when presented are great to take advantage of (oh that sounds so wrong XD).

Only real tactic too look out for with Beastmen for me personally is:

1. Death/Beast magic spam, they will bring 1 Lvl 4 for dispelling purposes and 3 Lvl 1's for casting the sig spell over and over again at either high priority targets or in key battles. Look to dispell with Lvl 2 against the low things or even base army.

2. Steer clear of the MinoStar while the rest of his army is on the board unless you hit it in the flanks etc. . . and overrun it, leaving the game mop up duty -though tough mop up duty if the Beastmen player is worth his salt and point denials you like he should.

Thats it for now.

Edit: I knew it was wrong last night when I typed it, but the HPA would still have its regen save in the scenario I presented above as P.G have I6. So, perhaps throw S.M like I mentioned afterword into a combat with that (I never run P.G, so normally thats what I do throw S.M and Spears/LSG at it.

Pointy Headed Elven Paladin
04-02-2011, 08:09
Wow, that's a lot for "just now". Thanks Trains I think I'll get cracking on that HE list for Skaven now. ;)

ForceM1782
04-02-2011, 13:24
Hi, i Play HE for a while now and in 8th, my favorite Hero/Lord for 2000 combi is:
Archmage with BoH, usually in LSG or PG
Dragon prince equipped noble with 2handed weapon adding power to my small DP hammer unit which usually does quite well. (Killed/overran a khornate Chaos Knight unit with one casualty and afterwards even an 18 man strong Khorne Warrior unit with a Hero in it... well it was a lot of luck but still very good unit)
Great banner noble with 2+ save and a 2handed weapon, cheap, still powerful and can take a few hits if not pitted against a real deathstar. Anyway i dont play wihout a great banner in 8th and i have never lost to an army not also wielding one this edition. This fact quite speaks for itself i think.

I usually play shadow for my Archmage so i can switch positions with my Great banner bearer if put under pressure. I always like to have something surprising like this to make the other player go :wtf: Metal works quite well not only against Heavy armored enemies but also for elves. Spearmen with a 3+ save are perhaps not as good as with mind razor on them but still not bad at all.

I can hardly think about an equally well performing Team on 2000 pts especially because i just dont see any alternative at all for the Archmage (other than named characters perhaps). Elves rely on Magic very hard this edition. I experienced that without an offensive caster it can be a very difficult matchup against nearly every army. HE can be very good but only when supported magically, otherwise the high points costs of their units often do not pay out in the end.

Winterfell
04-02-2011, 15:54
So last night I finished assembling my HE force with the combination of the IoB and HE battalion. At this point I have not found another player to exchange the other half of the skaven force so I have 10 Swordmasters, 10 Sea Guard, 5 Reavers, and the mage and Prince. Then with the battalion I have the bolt thrower, white lion chariot, 20 spearmen, and 20 archers. I bought a noble with axe and shield online and so now Im trying to put together a 1500 pt list to learn the game with.

Ive given all the units full command more for the purposes of filling out points and to see how to use them with the command. Once I get a few games under my belt I might drop them on some units if it seems unneccessary.

My bigest question at the moment is what type of hero should I use in my list. I have 3 options but should I use all three or should I leave the Prince out and just have the mage and noble? Im also not sure what type of gear to give them?

Trains_Get_Robbed
05-02-2011, 04:56
Only a Bsb on foot with AoC, G.P, Great Weapon. I used to preach this when I daily partook in this thread, and many others also do. It's really the only Hero lvl worth taking unless your in a large point game and have extra points to fill out, or want a Lvl 2.

grumbaki
05-02-2011, 05:37
Why the PG instead of Dawn Stone? If alot of rank and file will be attacking the BSB, wouldn't a Re-Rollable 2+ be better than a 2+/5++?

Pointy Headed Elven Paladin
05-02-2011, 06:01
Why the PG instead of Dawn Stone? If alot of rank and file will be attacking the BSB, wouldn't a Re-Rollable 2+ be better than a 2+/5++?

Only if you not facing something that ignores armor saves or have a very high STR value. IMO 2+/5++ is much, much better.

EnternalVoid
05-02-2011, 06:38
I tend to take the Guardian Phoenix myself because several people in our group like sniping characters with spells and the like, and there are those times I fail my look out sir roll and that ward save is much more valuable than an armor save.

If I knew I was going to get nothing but S3-S6 swings then I would be more for the dawnstone.

Trains_Get_Robbed
05-02-2011, 08:03
Ward is always better in my mind, because I can't give the BsB Regen from Lore of Life, and going agaisnt a unit with high strength attacks in this current meta is really hard to avoid.

Your looking on average at +3 just against troops like Saurus, against enemy charcters, you will only have a +4 if lucky (looks to Empire) where the Dawnstone would be better, but. . .. In almost alot cases, the Ward is going to better served as it can be used agianst spells (like stated above), agaisnt template weapons that would otherwise negate saves (think Plague Claw or Sallies -although they don't come into effect here, but you get the point).

If he does every suffer a wound for being in a challenge then I can LoL attribute him with my A.M, no biggie there.

My guy is almost always in my (80) W.L unit or just a block of (20) Spears.

Pointy Headed Elven Paladin
05-02-2011, 08:42
So last night I finished assembling my HE force with the combination of the IoB and HE battalion. At this point I have not found another player to exchange the other half of the skaven force so I have 10 Swordmasters, 10 Sea Guard, 5 Reavers, and the mage and Prince. Then with the battalion I have the bolt thrower, white lion chariot, 20 spearmen, and 20 archers. I bought a noble with axe and shield online and so now Im trying to put together a 1500 pt list to learn the game with.

Ive given all the units full command more for the purposes of filling out points and to see how to use them with the command. Once I get a few games under my belt I might drop them on some units if it seems unneccessary.

My bigest question at the moment is what type of hero should I use in my list. I have 3 options but should I use all three or should I leave the Prince out and just have the mage and noble? Im also not sure what type of gear to give them?

Archmage & BSB noble is the basic setup of most army lists I've seen here between 2000 - 2500 pts.

You could go with all three if you field the mage as a lvl. 2 mage. I'd only suggest that for games up to 2000 pts. as the Archmage is one of the backbones of a good High Elf army IMO.

ForceM1782
05-02-2011, 10:42
Exactly Pointly,
Princes are hardly worth it, Archmage nearly a must.
You could then add a second noble that is more fighty or save the points for more troops, but those 2 (archmage, standard bearer) are almost mandatory

Trains_Get_Robbed
06-02-2011, 04:49
I always find a way to fit a Prince into my all around list, I use the White Sword kit out, and challenge snipe any charcter ouside of Ogres, or WoC, or D.E -they they are too tough to kill, not enough attacks if oyu miss K.B, or too good of a Ward.

luntan
06-02-2011, 07:27
I always find a way to fit a Prince into my all around list, I use the White Sword kit out, and challenge snipe any charcter ouside of Ogres, or WoC, or D.E -they they are too tough to kill, not enough attacks if oyu miss K.B, or too good of a Ward.

What more then the White Sword is in your "White Sword kit"?
I wanna try something else then the lvl 4 and BSB and havenīt found anything good yet.

EnternalVoid
06-02-2011, 09:06
White Sword kit generally is; The White Sword, Armor of Caledor, Guardian Phoenix, and the Talisman of Leoc. Now there are some minor variations but the general idea that many go for is to try and assassinate another lord. With the Talisman of Leoc you have a decent shot at Killing Blow and with them having to reroll successful saves of any sorts it gives you a chance of getting through gear. Sometimes you even kill lords with out actually Killing Blow them.

The issue some people have with this is that means you can't put the AoC or the GP on your BSB, which has led to some variations that just have the Armor of Destiny or other lesser protection options as they are relying on their killing power.

hobbs3023
08-02-2011, 14:10
Dragon armor: (I apologize for placing this in tactics section and I'm sure this has been addressed in the past). 2+ ward save. Ok... my dragon knights charge a unit of whatever and they have the flame banner... do i get my 2+ ward save? I think yes... any weapon or effect which causes fire dmg also, right?

Also, does any1 have a list of what constitutes a flaming attack? I remember reading that the spell "flames of tzeench" is not a flaming attack (which I find odd but i believe it was FAQ'd)

Thankyou!

Desert Rain
08-02-2011, 14:56
Units with the flame banner has flaming attacks, thus giving you a 2+ ward save. I believe that the Tzeentch spells are FAQed to be flaming attacks, at least some of them. But I've been out of the loop for over three months so I might be incorrect. Generally though, it is clearly stated in most cases if an attack is flaming or not.

smithers
08-02-2011, 15:03
Units with the flame banner has flaming attacks, thus giving you a 2+ ward save. I believe that the Tzeentch spells are FAQed to be flaming attacks, at least some of them. But I've been out of the loop for over three months so I might be incorrect. Generally though, it is clearly stated in most cases if an attack is flaming or not.

Also, remember that the flaming banner will not affect magic weapons, so don't be caught off-guard expecting a 2+ ward against characters in that unit

Trains_Get_Robbed
09-02-2011, 05:50
What more then the White Sword is in your "White Sword kit"?
I wanna try something else then the lvl 4 and BSB and havenīt found anything good yet.

When I run my White Sword Lord (haha assonace), he does indeed have AoC, G.P, ToL and White Sword.

However, my BsB the 2nd most important model has to have something to make him surive, so I give mine Tekgadomors Gauntlets, its a phenominal item! Its only 30 points, but when your Bsb is mounted on a B.Steed (like I will always do mine) and you give him this item, and a G.W your looking at a +2 A.S and a +5 ward against anything worth getting attacked by. Plus in addition to this, he has 20 points you can play with -although I haven't been giving him anyhting else latley.

Godswildcard
09-02-2011, 14:25
So one thing I've wanted to discuss was the use of Teclis. I'm currently trying to get ready for Ard Boyz, and Teclis is in my army along with a vanilla BSB. Nowadays however, I get so much compaining about how broken and overpowered teclis is that its almost hard to find a game with new people if I play him. The other downside to this is that he is really my only answer to things with a decent toughness/high armor save. Even with ASF, S3 elves have a VERY hard time killing T4/3+ (I'm LOOKING AT YOU CHAOS WARRIOR!!) and then I can't think of a way to make white lions better to get more than one attack each.
So, all that being said, what do you guys do to get around the current level of whiny that we are seeing now as High Elf players? I mean, when a list comes out of three items that will probably be banned on the GT circuit and two of said items are found in my army book, I tend to get ruffled, b/c I don't recall a ban on the demons when they first came out.... ok, ok, rant/off
I've got a 2350 tourney coming up, no SCs allowed. What should I do?

Darktan
09-02-2011, 14:49
The other downside to this is that he is really my only answer to things with a decent toughness/high armor save. Even with ASF, S3 elves have a VERY hard time killing T4/3+ (I'm LOOKING AT YOU CHAOS WARRIOR!!) and then I can't think of a way to make white lions better to get more than one attack each.

There are a surprising number of high elves who don't actually have S3 when you include their weapons. Swordmasters and white lions come to mind, as do dragon princes, either of the two chariots, silver helms and to a lesser extent - pheonix guard, bolt throwers and characters.

if your looking to improve the damage you deal to chaos warriors and similar, look no further than lore of light or lore of shadow, casting mindrazor on spearelves or timewarp on white lions will get what you want killed with impressive speed. (lore of beasts works too). (light also can kill regen monsters reasonably well, with burning gaze boosted - S6 flaming hits 48" range)

i don't see how teclis is the only way of dealing with horrible things, a standard archmage (with either +1 spell or choose spells) and the banner of sorcery is a potent enough magic phase without having to resort to (what could be called, and is usually) silliness via powerscroll, book of hoeth or teclis.

if it's the T4 3+/3++ save chosen that're giving you trouble, you can cast spells that bypass all of their survivability, killing enough to drag them down with more regular troops. spells like - dwellers. pit of shades+miasma, final transmutation. final has the benefit of not being stat dependant, and will work equally on all units of horrible doom/large units and generates a 12" bubble of stupid. and has a solid range -36" powered.

Godswildcard
10-02-2011, 16:53
Ok, so I'm thinking of taking (in the upcoming 2350 tourney) a lvl. 4 archmage with shadow (not sure what to kit him with, possibly annulian crystal), a vanilla BSB (mounted to ride with the DPs) and a lvl. 2 mage with the silver wand and the guardian pheonix and high magic. I tend to use the second mage to run high magic for curse of arrow attraction and for drain magic, which makes life hell on my opponent if I can get it off.

as far as core goes, I'm going to be sticking with 2x12-15 units of archers w/ musician, and a block of 30 sea guard, possibly with the lion standard.

Special will be 10 dragon princes w/ full command. I'd like to run about 28-30 pheonix guard as well, but I'll have to see about that.

and 2 bolt throwers. yay.

thoughts on this?

I'd also tossed around the idea of running dual dragons (a prince w/ great weapon, armor of caledor, vembraces of defense on a moon dragon, and a lvl. 2 dragon mage). Is this a stupid idea? I haven't heard much about dragons in the new edition.

Darktan
10-02-2011, 20:32
With so much invested in magic, especially at a tournament, you'll want as much reliablility as you can get out of the phase as you can, silver wand achieves that nicely on the level 2, but you'll also need to add more reliability to the level 4 and the phase in general, the +1 spell item, vastly improves the chances you'll get a solid mix/the spells your most interested in using on the level 4 and the banner of sorcery adds some much needed power dice every turn without fail (unless the units dead) especially as you've got 2 mages not just the one.

on special, i've not really any experiance on large cavalry units (especially one so expensive), perhaps switch out to silver helms? cheaper, same number of attacks from the back ranks, but less overall and can be hit by the lore of metal. (unlike dragon princes, who have a 2+ ward vs it)

on the bolt throwers, they can do well, particularly when they have a specific goal in mind. However, you are lacking in units with speed who are also more 'throwaway' who's goal would be to redirect, bait, potentially marchblock and most importantly, hunt warmachines and run down fleeing units. unless you've got unit to deal with this, you could find the opposing warmachines firing non-stop upon your mostly fragile troops and any units that attempt to flee are left alone to rally, denying you VP's.

Reavers / shadow warriors / eagles are all good at this, eagles are the most commonly used, being pretty cheap and being able to fly. an easy way to get them if your willing to, is drop the bolt throwers, get 4 eagles.

(whoops, this post is getting looong)

on the dragons, you don't hear much about them for a few reasons - they are expensive, it's difficult to fit them in and reasonable magic at 2-2.5k games. they suffer from cannons/template weapons in that they hit both rider and dragon at the same time (and it's difficult to stay out of LoS) they don't get a LoS! roll, so easier to snipe, and any unit will be steadfast against them, so long as it has 5 men left (3 for ogre-like stuff)

They're no lost cause though, get a dedicated anti-warmachine team, reasonable defence kit and don't charge unsupported, and with practice, you can get some pretty exellent results.

Godswildcard
11-02-2011, 14:18
Ok, so I think I've locked in a pretty competitive list. Please take a second to check it out and leave comments:

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5306001#post5306001

Thanks!

BlackPawl
11-02-2011, 17:58
Did anyone tried out the banstone on a prince (with dragon armor, barded steed and DHW)?

I am nor sure if he is worth his points, he can disrupt some armies which rely on magic or magic item combos.

Chiungalla
11-02-2011, 18:28
I have only seen that working with a dragon or griffon for the prince.

Pointy Headed Elven Paladin
12-02-2011, 09:19
I'm going to be playing against a Skaven player in about a week and I wanted to know what everyone thinks would be more effective at 3000 pts.:

2 Archmages Army list or Archmage & Dragon Mage Army list?

I can think of pros and cons for both but I wanted to know what you HE vets think.

BlackPawl
12-02-2011, 14:34
I would neither of it (as I both play Skaven and High Elves). Two Archmages are to expensive for what they can and a Dragon Mage is a easy target for WFT, Jezzails, Warp Lightning Spells, Doomwheels ...
I would run an Archmage, a Prince, a BSB and one or two mages Lev 1 or 2 with some arcane items. I would only run a Dragon Mage if I knwo that the Skaven player did not bring some missle fire or warmachine to the battle, but in a 3000 point battle this will not happen.
Take Lore of death - with the basic spell you can kill chieftains, warlocks, weapon team etc. very easy.

Pointy Headed Elven Paladin
13-02-2011, 00:23
I would neither of it (as I both play Skaven and High Elves). Two Archmages are to expensive for what they can and a Dragon Mage is a easy target for WFT, Jezzails, Warp Lightning Spells, Doomwheels ...
I would run an Archmage, a Prince, a BSB and one or two mages Lev 1 or 2 with some arcane items. I would only run a Dragon Mage if I knwo that the Skaven player did not bring some missle fire or warmachine to the battle, but in a 3000 point battle this will not happen.
Take Lore of death - with the basic spell you can kill chieftains, warlocks, weapon team etc. very easy.

Thanks for the advice BlackPawl. Just a few points about what you've suggested:

1) Cookie Cutter BSB is already included in both lists.

2) I don't think the Prince is really all that effective unless you mount him on a Dragon at 3000 pts. (then it would run into the same issue as the Dragon Mage). Also my Lvl. 2 mages of late have been blowing up my regiments lately with miscasts or failure to cast at critical points so I don't really want to have to use them. At least with the Archmages I can give them some type of miscast protection and/or keep one them safe with the immortal mage setup without actually setting up with a unit.

3) I suspect my Skaven opponent really loves his artillery so I figured that the Archmages would be the perfect counter for taking them out (Lore of Death was one of my choices with Lore of Life to keep the army intact or Lore of Fire for additional firepower).

If I go with the second list with the Dragon Mage I fully expect him to be a target which is why I also plan on eagle spamming (if he's busy firing at the dragon then the Eagles will get through to his warmachines; if he fires at the eagles that's less shots to get at the dragon and all I have to do is get him in combat with a unit that's not slaves to insure no further shooting will be fired his way).

Trains_Get_Robbed
13-02-2011, 05:34
At 3,000 points, against Skaven specifically, if you have points and nothing much else to spend it on, run a Monster. There really is no reason not to.

Armies that have little in the way of shooting like WoC, DoC, D.E, etc. . . have a hard time in stopping the gribblies, let alone charcters. Skaven can be very shooty mind you, I'm just assuming your going to keep a G.E near his Doomwheel(s) and pretty much expect his WLC to either not get lucky or fail -its going to realistically need S8 and up to do anything).

What are you going to mount him on though, and how many points does he have to use is my next questions though.

Whatever you mount him on though, if you want a Screaming Bell "Assaination" try this :D:

G.W, AoC, Vambraces, O.T.S comes to a cool 95 points of kit -I know I'm sweet. :rolleyes:

I run this in massive store campagin battles/mega battles or against a pre-determined Skaven opponets (4k and up).

Your Prince should do 3 wounds to the Bell himself, allowing your dragon to put it down, and effectively render that unit useless until next turn when you get something in the flank/rear (+1 charge, 4-8 wounds) There really isn't a way for you to lost combat, and even if you do (dice gods may not have liked your sacrafice? :eyebrows: ) are Ld 10 and flee 3d6 highest 2. <<< Nvm I thought a Dragon's M vaule was higher. :/ Either way, your Ld 10.

Double Edit: Also, now instead of giving your BsB a different obsecure load out, just run the HoF and G.P on a B.Steed, and throw him on the end of a unit. Got love making him more survivalbe and moveable.

BlackPawl
13-02-2011, 13:05
And what did your Prince on Dragon when there is a champion and you have to fight a challange? Your 500+ Prince will kill the champion, the bell is intact and you will loose the combat ...

In a 4k battle there will be the stormbanner, so you can't fly for at least one round - more time for the skaven to take him down.

Even when he is in combat and there are a few PWG nearby to protect the bell then you lost a few wounds to them.

BlackPawl
13-02-2011, 13:18
2) I don't think the Prince is really all that effective unless you mount him on a Dragon at 3000 pts. (then it would run into the same issue as the Dragon Mage). Also my Lvl. 2 mages of late have been blowing up my regiments lately with miscasts or failure to cast at critical points so I don't really want to have to use them. At least with the Archmages I can give them some type of miscast protection and/or keep one them safe with the immortal mage setup without actually setting up with a unit.

Yes there is a danger to loose mages to IF, but you have two options to protect your mages against that (one from the armybook, one from the rulebook) which can be used from Lev 2 mages too.


3) I suspect my Skaven opponent really loves his artillery so I figured that the Archmages would be the perfect counter for taking them out (Lore of Death was one of my choices with Lore of Life to keep the army intact or Lore of Fire for additional firepower).

If he field a HPA you need some fire spells to. I would not recommend Lore of Fire but Lore of Light (with his very good basic (fire) missile).


If I go with the second list with the Dragon Mage I fully expect him to be a target which is why I also plan on eagle spamming (if he's busy firing at the dragon then the Eagles will get through to his warmachines; if he fires at the eagles that's less shots to get at the dragon and all I have to do is get him in combat with a unit that's not slaves to insure no further shooting will be fired his way).

Beware of the stormbanner. As I said above if he activates it then you could not fly for atleast one round (and your eagles have M2!) - one more round to take you out with Warplightning spells etc. Even the Doomwheel can catch you then. Big targets are no real danger if they are not really good protected!

Trains_Get_Robbed
14-02-2011, 02:16
Well seeing that one plans "ahead."

In my instance, I had a 2nd turn charge with my D.P's, direct attacked the BsB with the unit, and challenged (to get him to accept with his champion) got the champion out of the way and turn three was a rear charge by the Dragon.

Nice try though. ;)

Walls
15-02-2011, 20:55
I am sure it's hidden somewhere in the 84 pages...

But a Bolt thrower? 2 or 3 wounds? Some people go by number of crew, yet the back of the main rulebook says it has 3. Would that be an addenum to the original rules (2 crew as in the HE book) or a mistake?

Chiungalla
15-02-2011, 20:57
I am sure it's hidden somewhere in the 84 pages...

But a Bolt thrower? 2 or 3 wounds? Some people go by number of crew, yet the back of the main rulebook says it has 3. Would that be an addenum to the original rules (2 crew as in the HE book) or a mistake?

Not some people go by the number of crew, but all people that play by the rules. It's in the basic rules, the statline-wounds of war machines are ignored, and the crewmen are used as wounds.

Walls
15-02-2011, 21:10
I see that, but both the bestiary and AB files (both authored by GW) state it has 3 wounds now. Was the Bolt thrower silently FAQed then?n P 108 actually STATES to check the bestiary for warmachines. In the Bestiary it says it has 3 wounds. I can see GW changing all warmachines to 3 wounds. Would make sense. I can also see why people use the army book over the brb too. Still... I don't get why anyone short changes themselves when it pretty clearly says it has 3 wounds.

I also like how I am automatically called a cheater because I question this. Typical warseer, lol.

Chiungalla
15-02-2011, 21:23
I have not called you a cheater, and I quote the core rules:

A war machine's Wounds are always considered to be equal to the number of remaining crew models (which is stated in the war machine's entry) - the Wounds value on the profile is included only out of completeness.

Walls
15-02-2011, 21:36
And it completely says 3, not 2. That's the question here. So out of completeness they gave a different number then the crew entry? There are 2 different numbers given. Crew members = 2. Bestiary, which the rulebook says to check, says 3 wounds.

Darktan
16-02-2011, 00:13
I have not called you a cheater, and I quote the core rules:
A war machine's Wounds are always considered to be equal to the number of remaining crew models (which is stated in the war machine's entry) - the Wounds value on the profile is included only out of completeness.


And it completely says 3, not 2. That's the question here. So out of completeness they gave a different number then the crew entry? There are 2 different numbers given. Crew members = 2. Bestiary, which the rulebook says to check, says 3 wounds.

yes, out of completeness, they include a number for wounds on the bolt thrower, if you upgrade a dwarf machine with a standard engineer, it now has 4 crew total, giving it 4 wounds, but the profile for the weapon itself, will still say 3, it has, ingame, as Chiungalla shows, 4 wounds for the dwarf weapon+engi. Just as any elf bolt thrower, has, ingame, 2 wounds (due to the number of crew)

the back of the book only states the wounds characteristic of the machine, not it's crew, which is what it's actual wounds are.

Walls
16-02-2011, 00:31
So... if you shoot at the machine it has 3 wounds. In close combat it has 2?

Your are basically stating it has 3 wounds AND 2 wounds.

Preacher
16-02-2011, 01:36
Shoot at it or hit it with a stick. A warmachine has as many wounds as it does crew. High Elf Bolt thrower has 2 crew, so it has two wounds.

riotknight
16-02-2011, 03:03
The Bolt thrower has effectively 2 wounds. As each wound it takes removes 1 crew. Regardless of any other purpose when it takes 2 wounds it's dead as no crew are left.

It has 3 wounds on it's profile because it's a 7th edition book.

Walls
16-02-2011, 03:36
No, it's the 8th edition rulebook. I don't get how the 8th BRB has 3 wounds because it's a 7th ed book. In the 8th edition rulebook it says 3 wounds. That was my concern/comment/question. No one's actually answered it though. The BRB says 3 wounds and that models/crew members are just wound counters. Is this a quiet change to the machine or just a mistake?

And if it's a mistake, should we assume other parts of the bestiary are and ignore it altogether?

Pointy Headed Elven Paladin
16-02-2011, 04:51
No, it's the 8th edition rulebook. I don't get how the 8th BRB has 3 wounds because it's a 7th ed book. In the 8th edition rulebook it says 3 wounds. That was my concern/comment/question. No one's actually answered it though. The BRB says 3 wounds and that models/crew members are just wound counters. Is this a quiet change to the machine or just a mistake?

And if it's a mistake, should we assume other parts of the bestiary are and ignore it altogether?

That's because the BRB is referring to a standard Bolt Thrower (like dwarves & O&G armies have). In 8th Ed. crew members now counts as wounds and as RBTs for HE and DE armies only comes with 2 crew figures they only have 2 wounds. There is nothing in the HE Errata that states that the HE rulebook overrules the BRB in the case of the RBT.

Chiungalla
16-02-2011, 05:02
No, it's the 8th edition rulebook. I don't get how the 8th BRB has 3 wounds because it's a 7th ed book. In the 8th edition rulebook it says 3 wounds. That was my concern/comment/question. No one's actually answered it though. The BRB says 3 wounds and that models/crew members are just wound counters. Is this a quiet change to the machine or just a mistake?

And if it's a mistake, should we assume other parts of the bestiary are and ignore it altogether?

The bestiary isn't wrong, it is just written at another place, that the wound characteristic of war machines hasn't any bearing on the game altogether.

The same is true for the bestiary. Actually the bestiary is only included to give you a clue about what the other armies are capable of. Since armybook > rulebook is still in affect as one of the basic rules, the bestiary has no importance for the game after all.

Drakemaster
16-02-2011, 11:23
Rulebook:

A war machine's Wounds are always considered to be equal to the number of remaining crew models (which is stated in the war machine's entry) - the Wounds value on the profile is included only out of completeness.
High Elf Army Book Entry:

Bolt Thrower. Crew: 2 High Elves
The rulebook says to use the number of crew. The only place the number of crew is stated (not wounds, which are 'only included out of a sense of completeness' in the profile) is in the war machines entry in its own army book. The High Elf army book states the bolt thrower has 2 crew.

Preacher
16-02-2011, 20:05
The paragraph in the BRB(pg 110) suggests to use the bestiary to determine troop type, so you would know which is classed as a warmachine and which isn't. Not to use its profile.

Pg 110 states :

"A warmachines wounds are always considered to to be equal to the number of remaining crew models(which is stated in the war machine's entry) - the wounds value on the profile is included only out of completeness."


The important part of that is the "(which is stated in the war machines entry)", since that reference tells me to use the entry in the army book, since its the only place that says how many crew the war machine actually has, which are used as it wounds. Army book says the machine has 2 crew, therefore 2 wounds.

Perhaps when GW wrote the Bestiary section it would have been better to either make the wound value as "-" or "as crew".

But bottom line, when you add up all the rules for War machines, its still 2 wounds for the High Elf Bolt Thrower.

Trains_Get_Robbed
17-02-2011, 16:15
Wne you add up the effectiveness of Bolt Throwers? . . .

3.5/10.

*Yes I'm raining on parades.

Pointy Headed Elven Paladin
19-02-2011, 05:36
I just posted this in the army list section:

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=293890

I could use some tactical advice against beastmen if possible between now & Sunday.

Thanks in advance! :)

hobbs3023
19-02-2011, 22:57
I got some great advice here and went w/ Eagles over bolt thrower(s) in an 1800 point match. They were awesome! Even with the rules making it easier to march and a leadership roll to prevent an unwanted charge (frenzy)... just 2 eagles worked wonderful. They were constantly getting in his way, successfully pulled his units out of position. One finally got ahold of his caster on a disc of Tzeentch. Thanks! I'll always use them now!

GenerationTerrorist
22-02-2011, 11:08
Has anyone else noticed in the new FAQ that Dragon Armour is no longer invulnerable to flaming attacks? It just gives a 2+ Ward save now instead.

Chiungalla
22-02-2011, 11:12
Has anyone else noticed in the new FAQ that Dragon Armour is no longer invulnerable to flaming attacks? It just gives a 2+ Ward save now instead.

That change isn't that new, I guess it's there since a couple of month.

Treadhead_1st
22-02-2011, 11:15
I'm thinking of getting a Level 2 Mage and sticking him in a unit of Archers. Do you think that the Reaver Bow + Silver Wand is a good combination? I'm thinking that I would take High Magic with him.

My theory is that he can sit there and cast Curse of Arrow Attraction (if I get it) on an enemy unit, then help the Archers themselves out with the Str5 hits (and in larger games I'll have a Bolt Thrower or two nearby). He then knows another 2 spells that I can threaten the opponent/buff my nearby troops with, and would also have Drain Magic to help me out defensively.

Is this a good idea?

Chiungalla
22-02-2011, 11:25
Forget about the Curse of Arrow Attraction, unless you have tons of shooting.

Think about it this way:
How much you need to shoot at the unit to get the same out of the Curse, then you would gain by a Fury of Khaine spell?
The answer is: Very much.

Say you hit on 4+... to get additional 7 strength 4 hits (which in average the fury of khaine gives you) you need to fire 28 shoots with repeater bolt throwers at the cursed unit (14 will hit any way, and the curse will turn 7 more into hits).

So it's better to cast a magic missle or a direct damage spell nearly all the time.

Other then that, I think it's a very good setup for a wizard, just go for the good spells of the lore.

ashc
22-02-2011, 14:48
Curse of Arrow Attraction = bad times.

Treadhead_1st
22-02-2011, 19:09
Oh. Last game I managed to take out a Hellpit Abomination thanks to the Curse of Arrow Attraction re-rolls on my Archers.

I'll hope for some of the more direct-damage spells instead, if it's more effective then.

But the general set-up (Reaver Bow + Silver Wand) is good, and it is just my magic selection/usage that needs a little work?

Chiungalla
22-02-2011, 21:35
But the general set-up (Reaver Bow + Silver Wand) is good, and it is just my magic selection/usage that needs a little work?

I would say yes, as long as you still manage to sneak a dispel scroll into the army.

smithers
23-02-2011, 05:32
I can imagine wanting that spell if you had multiple shooting units, including bolt throwers.

An army with 4 units of 2X10 archers and a couple bolt throwers.... For that kind of setup I can imagine it creates some impressive focused fire.

Of course my list looks nothing like that.

Mr. Shine
26-02-2011, 03:53
Hey guys, I'm wanting to get into Fantasy and am considering High Elves, but I have no idea of where to start in terms of army composition. I have a few models here and there (a spearmen box and an archers box, though I hate the spearmen models). Basically I'm interested in getting together a balanced and capable 1000-point force but I don't know which way to go for my core. What sort of core choices and unit sizes are viable in 1000-point lists?

Pointy Headed Elven Paladin
26-02-2011, 05:02
Hey guys, I'm wanting to get into Fantasy and am considering High Elves, but I have no idea of where to start in terms of army composition. I have a few models here and there (a spearmen box and an archers box, though I hate the spearmen models). Basically I'm interested in getting together a balanced and capable 1000-point force but I don't know which way to go for my core. What sort of core choices and unit sizes are viable in 1000-point lists?

Hi Mr Shine,

here my suggestion at a starter 1000 pts.:

Heroes:
2nd Lvl. Mage: 185 pts. (High Magic)
Magic Items: Reaver Bow & Silver Wand

Core:
Spearmen Regiment: 205 pts.
20 Spearmen with full command armed with light armor, hand weapons, spears, & shields.

Archer Regiment: 135 pts.
10 Archers with standard & musician armed with hand weapons & longbows.
Standard Bearer equipped with Banner of Eternal Flame.

Special:
White Lions of Chrace Regiment: 270 pts.
15 White Lions with full command armed with heavy armor, lion cloaks, hand weapons, & great weapons. Standard bearer equipped with Banner of Swiftness.

Ellryian Reaver Cavalry: 105 pts.
5 Reavers armed with light armor, hand weapons, spears, elven steeds, & bows

Rare:
2x Great Eagles: 100 pts.

Total: 1000 pts.

IMO it pretty much what a High Elf army should be able to do: Shoot, Cast Magic, Fight in Close Combat, & is very mobile.

If you pick up the IoB set that should fill out the Reaver & Mage requirements but you'll probably have pick up the rest individually. Anyways I hope it gives you some ideas on where to start.

EnternalVoid
26-02-2011, 05:30
I like spearmen for most of my lists. Really they have done me well if only not being completely wiped out at times. Partially because I numbers for soft elves if possible. I am not the biggest fan of sea guard for their point costs for the dual roles and archers pain me so for having so little killing power for their point costs.

At 1000 points though you have several problems, the first just being the size of the game. Several armies have cheap for their destructive power options. Generally high elves seem to take minium core, as their other options are their bread and butter. But at 1000 points it becomes hard to have much else. Personally I would either go 25 spearmen with full command, and from there decide what else I want in my list. Likely at some point I would find it hard to add anything else I want but still have a chunk of points left over, at which point I would likely add more spearmen to flesh them out.

Add: Pointy Headed has a nice balanced list, not what I would take but it is one that would likely get you a good feel and experience with several different types of units and rules. Likely with a bit of time and practice though you will find yourself subbing out different things for things you might want more. For example; I would take a mage with the seerstaff myself as I know what lores I like and like the ability to choice my spells and have set options from it. But that is drawing from experience with different lores and set ups I can create from them

cowie165
26-02-2011, 08:51
Hi guys,

I'm in the same boat as Mr Shine. Long time 40k player interested in HE. I'm more a painter than a player, but was wondering if someone could help with a rough list from the following:

Dragon box
10 LSG
10 SM
15 PG
28 WL
5 Dragon Princes
8 Silver Helms
20 Archers
20 Spearmen
1 RBT
1 Chariot
Tyrion, Teclis, and a couple of random heroes

So just asking for advice on whether to sell the chariot or grab a couple more, more Silver Helms, etc. Never played WFB, but would like to have painted figures that make for a fun/workable army list! :)

Pointy Headed Elven Paladin
26-02-2011, 11:02
Hi guys,

I'm in the same boat as Mr Shine. Long time 40k player interested in HE. I'm more a painter than a player, but was wondering if someone could help with a rough list from the following:

Dragon box
10 LSG
10 SM
15 PG
28 WL
5 Dragon Princes
8 Silver Helms
20 Archers
20 Spearmen
1 RBT
1 Chariot
Tyrion, Teclis, and a couple of random heroes

So just asking for advice on whether to sell the chariot or grab a couple more, more Silver Helms, etc. Never played WFB, but would like to have painted figures that make for a fun/workable army list! :)

IMO I wouldn't take anymore Silver Helms as in the current edition Cavalry isn't as strong if you're planning on playing High Elves (of the 3 cavalry units Silver Helms are the worst choice by far and I would only use them for theme army builds like Saphery & Avelorn centric armies). Tiranoc Chariots are much more useful.

With what you currently have you could probably play a 2000 - 2500 pts. army right out of the gate however if you want to make use of the special characters you would probably have to build around them to make it worth your while to field them.

cowie165
27-02-2011, 08:29
Thanks PHEP! :yes: I might even sell the SH - haven't started painting those guys yet. Cheers.

Francis
03-03-2011, 22:49
Wouldn't sell them TBH since things might change in the future and more options is always better in my book.

Trains_Get_Robbed
03-03-2011, 23:12
^^^ When?
like 7 years down the road? XD More like good luck selling them, as most of the H.E players on the competetive scene or think of themselves as 'competetive' have rendered them 'useless' and as result preach on tact. sites don't take them.

Though grant it, they aren't a optium choice, I definitely have ran a giant bus before and will continue to do so in lax games with the buds. A unit with z mounted BsB and Lord (13 model count to 20 is best) is a nice change of pace to the standard H.E list.

As for advice on what to grab. . . .

I would say an 2 IoB (gives you a good amount of Seaguard and S.M). Then a 2 boxes or W.L or the 20 pewter W.L and lastly try and get ahold of 5 or so D.Ps: for competetive bulids. (although some people will preach Phoniex Guard instead of Swordmasters, you get S.M in the box though). If one can, look to grab just about every unit H.E have to offer save for Shadow Warriors (the worst choice in the book) and Silverhelms (if you have some already don't fret its good to have the models needed to spice things up sometimes).

My competetive lists (whether in tournament or grudge match play with some buddies) always has a minimal amount of charcters and a large amount of special troops in meduim unit size -think 20 7x3 with a Hero or A.M in the unit puts you at perfect ranks for 7 wide.

Chiungalla
04-03-2011, 07:09
^^^ When?
like 7 years down the road?

Taking into account that high elves are

1.) in the actual starter box
2.) a very popular army
3.) have an army wide rule which doesn't go that well with the new core rules
4.) had there last army book as one of the first in 7th edition

I would expect the new high elf army book, not so far in the future.
In 7 years we will most likely have the 9th edition, and I don't believe that they will skip an entire edition with high elves. If I would have to guess I would say 2-3 years. Until then they should have handled those book which are in desperate need, and then they will start to do the popular stuff.

Kellindel
04-03-2011, 16:56
I just don't understand all this hate for SW. The last four games I've used them they have always helped in either holding the lines or turning the tide.

I'll admit that the first few times I used them, they fell flat on their faces. But I guess I learned from that and have since had really good use out of them.

Do I think they are over priced? Maybe a point or two. Do I think they need something else?? Not really but I would not complain if they were "fixed". Would you get better results or more guys for getting Archers? Hell yeah, but SW are not archers. They fill a different purpose.

Play a few games with SW and think outside your box which you're friend on the other side of the table will believe you to be in and the SW will do wonders.

One example for me? Playing against my friends Empire army... SW were in woods, and accepted a charge from my friends Noble on Pegasas. I was in some woods so I got Steadfast. I moved my Spearman unit so the BSB was in range to allow rerolls.

The Noble couldn't move after the second round. I defeated him by the fourth round (only had s3 and that's a pain when dealing with good AS). And when I saw my numbers getting dangeriously low, I hit the unit with my Regrowth spell. When they finally won out, they flank charged his swordsmen unit what was flank charging my PG unit (with mage) which was flank charging his Halberd unit which was being charged by my Spearmen unit (with BSB)....

Once you figure that out you can imagine the confusion that melee was. Exspecially when my 4th level IR cast the throne spell, and got the result that affected all unit in a radius, AND then got hit by the thorn spell with affected his two units.

Destroyed two of his units in one round, granted it was ENTIRE luck of the dice. Only lost one PG to the miscast due to the ward save.

Trains_Get_Robbed
04-03-2011, 17:59
Taking into account that high elves are

1.) in the actual starter box
2.) a very popular army
3.) have an army wide rule which doesn't go that well with the new core rules
4.) had there last army book as one of the first in 7th edition

I would expect the new high elf army book, not so far in the future.
In 7 years we will most likely have the 9th edition, and I don't believe that they will skip an entire edition with high elves. If I would have to guess I would say 2-3 years. Until then they should have handled those book which are in desperate need, and then they will start to do the popular stuff.

I was being more sarcastic with the 7 years remark, though yes, 3-4 years down the road is likely. Remember, that Ogres, Brets, W.E, T.K, Dwarfs, Empire and possibly Demons could possibly be first or will be.


Regarding S.W's. To be honest, they are absolutley terrible :cries:, meanwhile Empire may be one of 2-3 armies they can actually so wound something in (they can die even quicker to xbow fire though and cost more than a 10 man handgunner unit). Grant working against the Empire, S3 hatred is a waste with ASF now. BS4 and Scouting? Waste when it costs some 23 odd points a model, and can be done easier and more effecitvely by a Great Eagle(s) or by a sacrificial chariot(s)/D.Ps.

For 7 Shadow Warriors, I could have done the samething you mentioned in your tactics I could have gotten 5 D.P's and done the samething, actually wounding and probably runnning down that noble in one turn (assuming a charge by you).

Chiungalla
04-03-2011, 23:06
Waste when it costs some 23 odd points

They are far less then 23 points. And you can't get 5 DPs for the same points you would get 7 SWs.

Kellindel
05-03-2011, 03:00
Waste when it costs some 23 odd points a model, and can be done easier and more effecitvely by a Great Eagle(s) or by a sacrificial chariot(s)/D.Ps.

For 7 Shadow Warriors, I could have done the samething you mentioned in your tactics I could have gotten 5 D.P's and done the samething, actually wounding and probably runnning down that noble in one turn (assuming a charge by you).

Yeah ... you have the points wrong. But to each his own.

;)

Trains_Get_Robbed
06-03-2011, 01:04
^^^ I'm sorry I didn't have my book with me and for some reason I thought they were closer to Silver Helms :p. I also said, roughly as ya know its illegal to post things like that on here. XD :shifty:

But yes, as you stated I would need more like 8ish to trade out for a D.P unit ( I did that at the previously wrong point cost). Though, it dosen't change the fact that none of what I rebutted above has debated in favor of the Shadow Warriors.

S.W just aren't worth their points, and if used improperly, can be an easy throw away of meaningful points. In an army already hard pressed for points, having a unit that could very possibly be useless isn't too high on my 'list' or in my list.

Turtleking
06-03-2011, 02:10
Same, I just can't justify S.W

Francis
09-03-2011, 13:20
SW are certainly too expensive for their cost, but I tend to field them anyway for sentimental reason and partly because sometimes they will surprise you.

When I do field them it is either as, more than capable, flank and rear guards with a noble or a mage in them, or as warmachine hunters.

Besides they often annoy your opponent to the point where he tosses far to much fire at them, and thereby spares your main combat units.

Chiungalla
09-03-2011, 14:20
There is one reason SW could be worth all those points: It's good to have some scouts.

Trains_Get_Robbed
10-03-2011, 07:19
I have fielded S.W twice, both times as delivery systems in 7th ed. for Alithnar, scouting Seafarer Lord and Reaver Bow Hero. Outside of that S.W haven't seen the light of day.

Pointy Headed Elven Paladin
10-03-2011, 09:07
I have fielded S.W twice, both times as delivery systems in 7th ed. for Alithnar, scouting Seafarer Lord and Reaver Bow Hero. Outside of that S.W haven't seen the light of day.

I have to agree with Trains here. I've only used the Shadow Warriors once in a 3000 pts. game against Skaven and they didn't do much other than take pot shots at warmachines (after taking some hits from a doomwheel that made they flee for the first 2 rounds). However as a character delivery system they would probably work well but you'll have to build the army list around that particular aspect instead of it being an enhancement to the general HE army list.

Treadhead_1st
10-03-2011, 09:31
I've been using Shadow Warriors, and they've been working fairly well. I tend to use them to support a block of archers, acting as flank-guards. Their ability to Scout comes in handy, allowing them to help deal with enemy war machines (I also have 2 units of Reavers for this in the army - I really hate war machines), and sticking them in a wood and luring enemy units in to deal with them can be a useful tactic too (perhaps something to bear in mind if you are using them as a character-delivery unit).

Yes, they're expensive and could be a little bit better (re-worked Eternal Hatred, or given an additional Hand Weapon for example), but I do think they are a useful unit to have kicking around in the army.

Grunge
10-03-2011, 16:37
Can you induge me in a little request? Can any of you post 2500 competitive lists so I can have a look at a general outline of what High Elves are packing to win tournaments?

I have a mate who's selling his whole army and I'd buy it if it packs practically what I'd need to be competitive with HE, as I am still finishing my 40k army and won't be buying many Fantasy items until that's finished.

It would be a whole lotta help if you could share any general outlines of recent competitive lists. Maybe both with and without Teclis, if possible.

Thanks in advance everyone.

EnternalVoid
11-03-2011, 08:49
The lists for competitive armies vary at least a bit depending on who you ask. That said I think most people would agree on certain things.

First, an archmage or Teclis is going to be present in almost every list. Whether it is a BoH mage or an archmage decked out differently is more debateable. Also a BSB will be present in almost any competitive list. At which point hero wise there is more debate on what if anything else is taken.

Unit wise, Phoenix guard. I like 25, but most will agree at either 25 or 15. After that often depends what sort of magic you are taking. If you are taking Shadow for Mindrazor, Spearmen are good core. If you are taking life, alot of people like taking White Lions as their beatface unit. If they take white lions, it is often in a single large unit, I have seen several with up to 30 in the unit. I have also noticed often with those that take the lore of Life they also take Sea Guard as their core.

Then Great Eagles. I generally take 4 anymore as I don't use RBTs.

Really if I wanted to judge if something like that is a good buy those are the first things I would look at.

Peachtacular
18-03-2011, 19:08
What are your favorite prince builds? I like to take a Prince and an Archmage in 2500+ for the extra leadership and beatstick abilities. I have tried the White Sword / Talisman of Loec / Armor of Caledor / Guardian Phoenix build, and while he usually KB's a hero in a challenge, he doesn't often survive the whole game.

What do you think of the following particular build? I find him more survivable, and since my opponents general have at least two characters in whatever unit my Phoenix Guard are fighting, the sword is brilliant.

Prince w/Sword of Anti-Heroes, Enchanted Shield, Vambraces of Defense, Dragon Armor.

With a 3+/3+/4++, immunity to fire, and magic attacks that scale very well with the difficulty of the opposing unit, I find this guy to be a great general.

Pointy Headed Elven Paladin
19-03-2011, 02:59
What are your favorite prince builds? I like to take a Prince and an Archmage in 2500+ for the extra leadership and beatstick abilities. I have tried the White Sword / Talisman of Loec / Armor of Caledor / Guardian Phoenix build, and while he usually KB's a hero in a challenge, he doesn't often survive the whole game.

What do you think of the following particular build? I find him more survivable, and since my opponents general have at least two characters in whatever unit my Phoenix Guard are fighting, the sword is brilliant.

Prince w/Sword of Anti-Heroes, Enchanted Shield, Vambraces of Defense, Dragon Armor.

With a 3+/3+/4++, immunity to fire, and magic attacks that scale very well with the difficulty of the opposing unit, I find this guy to be a great general.

This what I like to use for my Prince build for my Saphery army:

Prince of Saphery:
Equipment: Great weapon, shield, heavy armor, & barded elven steed.
Magic Items: Radiant Gem of Hoeth, Reaver Bow, Dragonhelm, & Luckstone
Point Total: 295 pts.

It isn't an uber killing machine but I like the fact that he can do something is all the combat related phases (magic, shooting, & close combat). The prince counts as a Lvl. 1 wizard; dispel as a lvl 2 wizard becuase he's a high elf wizard; has a 2+ armor save vs. close combat; 1+ armor save vs. shooting; 2+ ward save vs. flaming attacks; 3 STR 5 shooting attacks at 30"; 4 STR 6 close combat attacks, & can re-roll 1 failed armor save in a pinch. I usually choose Spirit Leech from Lore of Death so that I can magic snipe characters and warmachines. Perfect as he as a LD of 10.

Francis
19-03-2011, 13:20
My favourite build is and will probably remain the White Sword build. White Sword, Armour of Calador, Guardian Phoenix and Talisman of Loec. Although I have been tempted to go with AoC, Vambraces of Defence, the Other Trickster Shard and a standard Great Weapon after my friends Hydra ate my WS prince in one round of combat. There are alot of killy stuff out there. Any advice as to what I should use?

Vala.r.aukar
19-03-2011, 23:35
The best Prince build evar:

barded steed, armor, shield, GIANT BLADE, helm of fortune, loec

rerollable 1+ armor, consistently hits with muthatruckin' S7, and has the loec talisman to eat the face off enemy characters

Peachtacular
20-03-2011, 00:11
I think that paying 60 points for str 7 is inefficient when you can pay 12 points to get str 6 with a great weapon.

GenerationTerrorist
20-03-2011, 02:27
^^ Exactly.

Also, what happens when your Prince get hit by something that ignores Armour? He is T3, after all!

VoD/ToP are a must on any Prince, IMHO.

Vala.r.aukar
20-03-2011, 21:06
That's exactly what I thought when someone suggested it. But it doesn't just give you s7, it gives you:
wounding s6 beasties on a three (letting him and his unit reliably kill big monsters)
can carry a shield in combat
magic attacks
further reduction in enemy armor save (ex. that character with a 2+ save now only has a 6+)

As for wards, I've never needed one, in fact I've only lost the prince twice, once to dwellers (ward's not gonna help there) and to a tooled up ork lord. Normally he wouldn't have been a threat but he had some crazy saves and I completely fluffed my attack

the only (common) things that ignore armor (that come to mind) are spells, artillery, and characters with special weapons.

Spells-usually ignores wards too

Artillery/templates-look out sir protects him, I almost always run him in a unit of 8-12 silver helms with a bsb with the iron curse icon for added security

Characters-the prince, with s7 and loec rerolling goodness, will usually kill these

Treadhead_1st
20-03-2011, 21:16
At the moment I do not run a Prince - I should like to, but I only play 2000pt games, and so I restrict myself to a Noble and a Level 2 Mage, as I like to invest more in my troops than my characters (the fact I can outnumber one or two of the local Empire/Orc players is highly amusing).

I run him with: Great Weapon, Heavy Armour, Helm of Fortune, Guardian Phoenix & Barded Elven Steed. He costs a mere 163 points, and packs a 2+ re-rollable armour save, 5+ ward save, and constant Str6.

Were I to upgrade him to a Prince, I would take the Great Weapon, Heavy Armour, Vambraces of Defence, Barded Steed and the Potion of Strength.

He gets a bit more power on the offensive from his basic statline, and in a pinch (say against a really nasty monster) he can pull out Str9 to really hammer them hard. He is perhaps a little less robust, trading one point of Armour Save for an additional point of Ward Save, but he does still have 25pts of magic item allowance to mitigate that with some magic armour.

Other builds I am entertaining focus more on the defensive aspect, but I've forgotten what most of them are now (things like Armour of Heroes/Glittering Scales + Vambraces and so on to make the character harder to hit in the first place).

Tarian
21-03-2011, 23:44
I run my Prince on steed with Lance, Shield, Helm of Fortune, Talisman of Saphery for the 1+ rerollable, negate magic weapon goodness.

On foot, he's with the AoC, VoD, and a Great Weapon.

grhino
22-03-2011, 09:41
At the moment I do not run a Prince - I should like to, but I only play 2000pt games, and so I restrict myself to a Noble and a Level 2 Mage, as I like to invest more in my troops than my characters (the fact I can outnumber one or two of the local Empire/Orc players is highly amusing).

I run him with: Great Weapon, Heavy Armour, Helm of Fortune, Guardian Phoenix & Barded Elven Steed. He costs a mere 163 points, and packs a 2+ re-rollable armour save, 5+ ward save, and constant Str6.

LOL! Love your builds! I agree that High Elfs are not particularily in need of really expensive characters, although lvl4 archmages can be quite useful, or monster-mounted princes... otherwise, only for particular roles or in bigger games!

Vala.r.aukar
22-03-2011, 13:08
white sword, armor of caledor, dawnstone, talisman of loec
expensive but fun. You want 4 kb attacks that reroll everything? here you go

Vala.r.aukar
22-03-2011, 13:17
Or, as a fun experiment:

shadow armor, shield, bow of the seafarer, that 15 point talisman that gives a 6+ ward/regen, great weapon

take him and Alith in two units of ~6 shadow warriors. Proceed blow the back lines to pieces! Though being so vulnerable it probably wouldn't work...

Treadhead_1st
22-03-2011, 19:02
LOL! Love your builds! I agree that High Elfs are not particularily in need of really expensive characters, although lvl4 archmages can be quite useful, or monster-mounted princes... otherwise, only for particular roles or in bigger games!

Thanks!

I would love to take a Lvl4, but at 2000pts I find that I simply don't have room, if I want to have sufficient support elements for all my blocks. I also don't field a BSB at that points level, which is bad - but this is balanced out by having a much higher model-count than a normal army, and I feel the high Elven Leadership is fairly reliable as it is.

When I get to bigger games (3000pts) I drop in the BSB and try to work in the Lvl4 upgrade and/or a second Mage. Only after those things, as well as expanding all my other choices, will I look towards taking a Prince, as to be honest the Noble hits pretty hard as it is.

Francis
22-03-2011, 20:47
white sword, armor of caledor, dawnstone, talisman of loec

Take the GP instead of the DS m8. There are too many high strength or ignore armour save attacks out there not to take a ward save.

Chiungalla
22-03-2011, 21:41
Take the GP instead of the DS m8. There are too many high strength or ignore armour save attacks out there not to take a ward save.

Most of the time as soon as you face opponents with that kind of weapon/strength you are screwed no matter if you have a 5+ ward save or not.

YoungKing
23-03-2011, 02:14
Quick question.

In 1500 points, what is the best way to maximize your heroes?

Should I go for two mages or one mage and a BSB?

If I took a mage and BSB, is a good configuration Mage, Lvl 2, Seerstaff and BSB, Great Weapon, AoC, and GP?

Is it stupid to take two mages? Is this just a stupid points level and should I aim for 1250 then 2k?

Bloody Nunchucks
23-03-2011, 02:21
at 1500 two mages is stupid. you would be wasting winds of magic dice and points that in 1500 could buy you much needed troops or a bsb

at 1500 i would have the standard bsb on foot (AoC, GP, great weapon)
and a mage, lvl 2 with the seerstaff.

as for princes on horseback, i really only find that effective now if its in a unit with a bsb and 8 silver helms. and whoever said a ward save is never usable i would like to tell you that a 4+ ward that lets you reroll armour saves has saved my prince tons of times. even if you are the best general ever you will whiff on dice sometimes and fail your armour save, when you do its nice to have a ward to fall back on

Pointy Headed Elven Paladin
23-03-2011, 05:00
Quick question.

In 1500 points, what is the best way to maximize your heroes?

Should I go for two mages or one mage and a BSB?

If I took a mage and BSB, is a good configuration Mage, Lvl 2, Seerstaff and BSB, Great Weapon, AoC, and GP?

Is it stupid to take two mages? Is this just a stupid points level and should I aim for 1250 then 2k?

Question #1: Easy answer would be whatever you feel that's effective and that can only be gauged by what you include after the heroes.

Question #2: IMO mage & BSB would be best if the mage is a Lvl. 4 but 1500 pts. that might take up too much points.

Question #3: I would think so

Question #4: It wouldn't be stupid as much as you would need to plan around it to get it to work. Jewel of Dusk, Silver Wand, and/or Banner of Sorcery with one mage with Lore of Death are almost a must if you're going to run with 2 mages.

IMO at 1500 pts. I would either go with a fighting Lord and 2nd Lvl. Mage as this would forgo the need for a BSB or go with a 4th Lvl. Mage & cookie cutter BSB then go with max core and smaller special units (14 or so men per unit unless it's a bunker unit which should be 18+).

YoungKing
23-03-2011, 13:54
Thanks for the advice.

What I'm thinking is to get some models that I can build different lists around, be it 1000, 1500, or 2000 points. I have my heroes already and some core so Ive got a start. The staple o my lists that I'm considering would be:

archmage(2k only)
Mage
bsb

Either 2x25 spearelves or 1x35 spears and 20 archers.

20 PG
2 chariots(not sure which)
10 lions(if I go for 2x25 spears).

What are your thoughts on that as far as a base list goes? Any advice would be awesome.

MikeyB
23-03-2011, 15:28
Ok I've doen searches and tried to read as much of these 87 pages as possible before i asked but:

Are dragon mages worth taking?

Chiungalla
23-03-2011, 16:08
I would go with a clear no. You play lots of points for the model, and one part of it never wants to see combat, and both parts are just a sitting duck while flying around as long as your opponent has got any shooting.

MikeyB
23-03-2011, 16:56
Yeah that's what i was thinking shame cos the idea is awesome ^_^

Pointy Headed Elven Paladin
24-03-2011, 02:26
Thanks for the advice.

What I'm thinking is to get some models that I can build different lists around, be it 1000, 1500, or 2000 points. I have my heroes already and some core so Ive got a start. The staple o my lists that I'm considering would be:

archmage(2k only)
Mage
bsb

Either 2x25 spearelves or 1x35 spears and 20 archers.

20 PG
2 chariots(not sure which)
10 lions(if I go for 2x25 spears).

What are your thoughts on that as far as a base list goes? Any advice would be awesome.

For 2000 pts. my mainstay selections are usually:

Archmage, BSB, & 1 25 man spears with full command & 2x 10 archers with Std. & Musician to meet the core requirements then fill out the army from there. I go with 2x 25 spearmen with full command if I'm expecting heavy close combat engagements with little or no enemy firepower.

Special units like the White Lions & Phoenix Guards should be a minimum of 20 models (more if you can spare it). For Swordmasters I don't normally field them in large regiments so at most they would be a 12-14 with a Bladelord included (I never expect them to survive through an entire battle as I tend to use them as one shot forelorn hope units to do as much damage as possible). I tend to field 2 Elite Infantry units at 2000 pts.

With the remaining 300 or so points left over I tend to pick out chariots, eagles, and RBTs to round out the force.

I usually scale this up or down but I try to keep it relatively the same ratio unless I'm fielding a theme army or trying something out.

I hope that helps.

Pointy Headed Elven Paladin
24-03-2011, 02:31
Ok I've doen searches and tried to read as much of these 87 pages as possible before i asked but:

Are dragon mages worth taking?

I think they are viable at 1500 pts. or at 3000 pts.

At 1500 pts. there shouldn't be too many things that can take it out and at 3000 pts. there should be enough other high or higher priority targets where they won't always be singled out for termination by warmachines or spells.

Granted the Dragon Mages do better against armies that doesn't have a lot of powerful, long range firepower in the first place (Warriors of Chaos, Beastmen, Bretonnia, & Vampire Counts come to mind).

Trains_Get_Robbed
24-03-2011, 03:23
Dragon Mages aren't worth their points, no inthe 'competetive scene'.

Though giving a +4 Ward, and sending the Dragon at Hero level charcters as a beatstick is pretty funny, as your Dragon actually gets to do something, and as Pointy Head Elf Pally mentions, agaisnt armies without ranged heavy firepower like Dwarfs, Empire, Skaven, and D.E even (sometimes) the D.mage can be a fun choice.

There was a topic earlier mentioning what would be in a competetive H.E list? Well, after being regurgiatated on here from all the 7th ed. folk and on. . .

A BsB a Lvl 4 mage/Teclis and a Lvl 2 Mage with A.C or Sigil is what I would suggest for charcters. Fill out core to preference, however special choices are not to be specfic outside of not taking S.W or S.H. P.G, S.M, and W.L are all a toss up, and frankly D.Ps should be taken, with or without a Banner, or a Muso is up to you and your unit size -they're in the list to clean up skirmishing units or scouts, small monsters (salleis) and protect rears against board edge or burrowing units.

Anyone doing Ard Boyz and taking H.E?

smithers
24-03-2011, 22:21
I twice fielded a dragonmage in a list that was designed for magic overload. It was a lot of fun and it achieved what I had hoped for. I'd recommend that you avoid combat entirely while the caster is still alive and of course take the silver wand.

In my games I had 10-15 dice to throw per turn, and between the fire and then life on my archmage I had big spells going off each turn.

Vala.r.aukar
25-03-2011, 15:10
How much magic do you guys take at 2k-2.5k? It seems the consensus is a lvl4 and 1-2 lvl2's, but that seems like so much to me, considering an archmage is ~300 points and mages are ~150.

I've used a single lvl 4 with ac/book/sw/scroll, and it usually is sufficient, allowing plenty of points for fighty characters or more units. Yes, miscasts happen, but they usually just take off a wound off him or so

However, most people agree lots of mages is good. Why? seems like a point sink
And why do people run more mages with Teclis? Teclis does everything, why would you need more magic?

Chiungalla
25-03-2011, 16:46
Six of the more important arguments for more wizards:
1.) The banner of sorcery is a must have, and it's often hard to useful invest 12 powerdice with "only" a level 4, and they don't happen so seldom if you add a D3.
2.) Also if you field all comers, you sometimes want a second or even third lore, to minimize weak areas in your main lore. It's always nice to have a lore of death wizard nearby to sniper the enemy mage e.t.c.
3.) You want more then one arcane item. There are at least 4 arcane items you want to have in the book (including the annulian crystal, dispel scroll, book of hoeth, sigil of asyrian).
4.) You don't want a single missed role for a spell ruin your magic phase or a missed dispel attempt to screw you in your opponents magic phase.
5.) You don't want to be screwed if your wizard dies for any reason, letting you waste your magic phase and letting your opponent rule in his own for the rest of the game. Have I mentioned the lore of death yet?
6.) Better chances with channeling

Treadhead_1st
25-03-2011, 18:07
At 2K I take between 2 and 4 levels of magic, in whatever combination suits me best.

I prefer having a lot more boots on the ground than magic - so long as I have enough to counter the worst of the enemy magic for a few turns until my army can fully engage into CC (at which point the opponent's magic options are limited through LOS issues and having Wizards killed). It also means that I don't *have* to invest in the Banner of Sorcery, as there's normally enough dice to go around and try to cast off 3 spells (especially with a Level 2).

Vala.r.aukar
25-03-2011, 18:56
Six of the more important arguments for more wizards:
1.) The banner of sorcery is a must have, and it's often hard to useful invest 12 powerdice with "only" a level 4, and they don't happen so seldom if you add a D3.
2.) Also if you field all comers, you sometimes want a second or even third lore, to minimize weak areas in your main lore. It's always nice to have a lore of death wizard nearby to sniper the enemy mage e.t.c.
3.) You want more then one arcane item. There are at least 4 arcane items you want to have in the book (including the annulian crystal, dispel scroll, book of hoeth, sigil of asyrian).
4.) You don't want a single missed role for a spell ruin your magic phase or a missed dispel attempt to screw you in your opponents magic phase.
5.) You don't want to be screwed if your wizard dies for any reason, letting you waste your magic phase and letting your opponent rule in his own for the rest of the game. Have I mentioned the lore of death yet?
6.) Better chances with channeling

1.) Well, the banner only a must have more multi-wiz listz, they rely on getting enough dice to make those points back, so you don't have to take it. But I see what you're saying, the banner is great. But I think you still get value out of it with just a L4. I mean really, have you ever found yourself with too many powerdice?

2.) I completely agree. This is probably the main advantage to multi-wizzing. I'm just not completely sure it's worth the points. Radiant gem could be an interesting solution

3.) another good point. with one mage, you kinda have to choose between defense and offense.

4.)true, but since you aren't relying as much on magic you won't be as devastated when your magic flops, and you won't need to cast as many spells, and will use more dice, and not fail as often

5.) just keep him out of trouble, it's not too hard. miscasts aren't that bad

6.) not that big a deal

Chiungalla
25-03-2011, 20:20
I mean really, have you ever found yourself with too many powerdice?

Quite some times till now, since it's not that clever to put to many dice in rather weak spells, because of the miscast chance.


Radiant gem could be an interesting solution

I actually play a radiant gem death magic BSB tomorrow in a tourney. It's only 1.600 points with no lord choices, so it's quite nice to have the sniper with leadership 9 in the list, and still another wizard around.


5.) just keep him out of trouble, it's not too hard. miscasts aren't that bad

Sometimes they are. And then there are still such things as death magic to kill wizards. And the feedback scroll can be nasty, too, especially on a slann with the bane head.


6.) not that big a deal

I give you that one. After all I'am not completely sold on the more-mages-arguments, I just posted the arguments that came to mind. Although I love elves with strong magic, but if I want to go really magic-heavy I take my

Peachtacular
26-03-2011, 00:07
I have been taking a lvl4 and a lvl1 in 2.5k-3k games. The lvl1 grabs the Annulian Crystal and Wyssian's Wildform from lore of beasts. The archmage either takes life, light, shadow or metal, depending on my mood, usually with the unkillable setup and either silver wand, staff of solidity or a scroll.

With the banner of sorcery I find this setup to work well in most situations.

Lord of Nonsensical Crap
27-03-2011, 05:21
So...a quick question to HE players: are White Lions hordes worth it? By this, of course, I mean big 30-man units of White Lions arranged in horde formation. Are they worth taking in such big units?

Chiungalla
27-03-2011, 06:32
So...a quick question to HE players: are White Lions hordes worth it? By this, of course, I mean big 30-man units of White Lions arranged in horde formation. Are they worth taking in such big units?

Yes, there is nearly nothing that can stand against 30 white lions.