PDA

View Full Version : Tactica: High Elves in 8th edition



Pages : 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 [8] 9 10 11

Tarian
28-03-2011, 01:33
Except a block of WL that big paints a very, very large target on their heads that says "Shoot me!" or "Tie me down with cheap stuff!" Personally, I don't think that HE horde very well, as our stuff is 1) Expensive and 2) Frail, but that's my experience.

Vala.r.aukar
28-03-2011, 02:13
Except a block of WL that big paints a very, very large target on their heads that says "Shoot me!" or "Tie me down with cheap stuff!" Personally, I don't think that HE horde very well, as our stuff is 1) Expensive and 2) Frail, but that's my experience.

I agree, High Elves aren't really suited for hordes. I have, however, ran the 30 lion horde against a shooty skaven army (with relative success).
In order for it to work, you have to build the rest of the list around it, ex:
- a light archmage to timewarp them into combat asap and protect them from cannons with pha's
- plenty of support units like eagles and tiranocs to prevent the horde from being delayed by cheap chaff units or from getting bogged down into that 80 slave tarpit, and
- other scary targets the enemy would want to eliminate (dragons come to mind)

and don't make it too big, 30 should be plenty

Tarian
28-03-2011, 02:15
Only problem with 30 (in my opinion) is that any casualties start costing attacks in CC. Then again, whatever they hit is *not* going to be happy.

Vala.r.aukar
28-03-2011, 02:16
by "relative success" I meant if I had won by ~10 VP less, it would've been a draw.
It was fun, but I had some luck and I'm not so sure it's the most reliable tactic.

Tarian
28-03-2011, 02:17
Personally, my HE have resorted to "Mage Cannoning" things that look scary, and relying on tough infantry blocks to finish them off... far cry from my old Caledor list.

Vala.r.aukar
28-03-2011, 02:22
Only problem with 30 (in my opinion) is that any casualties start costing attacks in CC. Then again, whatever they hit is *not* going to be happy.

Yep, but you know what's almost as scary as 30 ASF rerollin' hits S6 attacks? 27 ASF rerollin' hits S6 attacks. It's not that big of a difference, and the enemy you hit WILL be devastated. They one-shotted a furnace and a bell in the same game, and broke the remaining unit each time next combat

Tarian
28-03-2011, 02:25
Ouch, one-shotting a bell? How did they do against the furnace? The sheer amount of T tests should put a pretty good dent into them (Assuming the Priest has a censer too).

Vala.r.aukar
28-03-2011, 18:26
Well, the lion champ had the other trickster's shard (reroll wards) (they were specifically designed for the bell), without it I doubt they would have killed it

And the furnace only does d6 t tests in combat, as the priest didn't have a censer (because it would've affected like 10 monks too)

Bloody Nunchucks
28-03-2011, 22:33
i am playing HE in ard boys and will have teclis, a BSB(not sure if cookie cutter or BotWD) 20 PG, 21 SM, 21 SM, 10 archers, 20ish SG, 35ish spears, 10 archers, 2 eagles.

i think that just teclis is enough magic with the BoS

i havny decided if i want to use BotWD with the 10 archers and teclis, as it seems like a huge points sink. however i think i might have to because dwellers and other spells would destroy him turn one potentially.

i am personally not a fan of WL, they lack survivability of PG and hitting power of SM. i also am thinking about 9 silver helms and a prince on horse back with the starlance and VoD but i am not sure how that would do as i'v never used it in 8th, any thoughts on HE silverhelms? i think DP are to expensive but that might just be me.

Tarian
29-03-2011, 03:48
Lions are great can openers, and the Furnace causes a T test for every model in BtB, with a censer, it's 2, then it throws d6 on top of that well. And since Monks only fail on a 6, I always field my Priest with the censer, if only for the lulz.

As for Helms, they suffer for... not being princes. For a relatively modest point increase, you gain 1 WS, 1 Ld, 1 A, 1 I, and a 2+ ward v. flaming.

If you're bringing the Teclis Bunker (tm), the BotWD in a large block of PG with Teclis hiding for dear life seems pretty popular. Good luck at 'ard Boyz!

Pulstar
29-03-2011, 17:36
So I was toying around with `Ard Boyz lists and came across the fact that you can pack a lot of mages into 3000 points.

My last list had 11 levels of mages in it. (A Lv 4 death with FR, ToS, SW, a Lv 4 shadow w/ ToP, SeerStaff, a lv 1 fire with ignore miscast ring, and two lv 1 shadows with +1 pd and a dispel scroll)

Even with the BoS and the Jewel and the Power dice back from Death you won't have enough to have everyone cast everything. Part of the idea was to spam Miasma from the lowbie mages and then switch the death/ethereal mage to where he needs to be to get off the snip spell. (the fire mage was just to throw big fire balls with any left over dice, just because you can)

And with that much shadow magic flying around, our hth units should just crush stuff.

So the question is, how many Mage Levels is too much?

Francis
29-03-2011, 19:55
Due to lack of power dices in 8th I think everything over 8 is too much.

ashc
29-03-2011, 21:43
Unless wanting more than one lore for utility, a level 4 and 2 level 2s seem the most you would want, to me anyway.

Tarian
29-03-2011, 23:51
At 3k, I field 1 lvl 4 Death, 1 lvl 4 Shadow, and 1 lvl 2 High Magic, does well for me, but a bad winds roll hurts a lot.

YoungKing
30-03-2011, 02:35
I was thinking of going magic heavy in making my 2k list, with an Archmage(lvl4) and two lvl 2's, but that might be too much.

I don't know how valuable a BsB really is.

Pointy Headed Elven Paladin
30-03-2011, 03:56
So I was toying around with `Ard Boyz lists and came across the fact that you can pack a lot of mages into 3000 points.

My last list had 11 levels of mages in it. (A Lv 4 death with FR, ToS, SW, a Lv 4 shadow w/ ToP, SeerStaff, a lv 1 fire with ignore miscast ring, and two lv 1 shadows with +1 pd and a dispel scroll)

Even with the BoS and the Jewel and the Power dice back from Death you won't have enough to have everyone cast everything. Part of the idea was to spam Miasma from the lowbie mages and then switch the death/ethereal mage to where he needs to be to get off the snip spell. (the fire mage was just to throw big fire balls with any left over dice, just because you can)

And with that much shadow magic flying around, our hth units should just crush stuff.

So the question is, how many Mage Levels is too much?

It depends on how much magic you want to cast. If running with 2 archmages you could try for double Death mages (give one the Seerstaff of Saphery and the other Silver Wand to double the chance of getting Purple Sun twice and to generate more power dice in the phase).

at 3000 pts. I tend to run heavy magic with either 2 Archmages & 1 lvl. 2 mage or 1 Archmage & 2 Lvl. 2 mages (if I want to run some fighting heroes). I usually try to keep it under 10 levels.

Trains_Get_Robbed
30-03-2011, 07:16
Only reason to take more than 8 levels should be to geive you spell acessability, however if have Teclis, then its almost a no-brainer to limit to 8 levels.

It depends on the lore your doing, but the best things to do with a bunch of Lvl1's is to just boost Teclis or your BoH A.M. For example, using 3 lvl1's to spam cast Fire ball before Telcis has his session with the enemy can be helpful, as is having everyone take light, making Teclis's banishment disgusting at S7. GOOOOOOD BYEEEEE EVERYTHING!!!! Just don't roll 2 1's ;)

Tarian
30-03-2011, 13:14
Even with 2 1s, your looking at min 5 dice v. their 1, with 1+1 (Winds roll) + 1 (Jewel of Dusk) + 1 (Banner of Sorcery) + 1 (Teclis). Best case for your magic would be 3 (Teclis) + 3 (BoS) + 1 (Jewel) + 3 + 2 (Winds of Magic) for a total of 12 Dice vs. 3. That's gonna be a harsh magic phase. (Ignoring channeling, 'cause I want to :P)

Pulstar
30-03-2011, 15:07
Does Light have a unit killer? (Don't have my book handy) Since 'Ard Boyz is going to be full of big units you need a way to take care of them.

The -movement factor in Miasma spam can really ruin peoples day. Worried about that horde of Bloodthristers? Not if it can't move your not. Oh and juice it up to floor the init of people and then send Purple sun and Pit of Shadows at them.

Eladimir
30-03-2011, 20:31
Quick questions about shadow warrior hatred. Since they strike first and reroll if initiative is higher will that stack with hatred and therefore get to reroll any remaing misses?

Not that it really matters, doesn't affect ranged attacks and at 16 points each they seem ridiculous.

Zoolander
30-03-2011, 21:01
Quick questions about shadow warrior hatred. Since they strike first and reroll if initiative is higher will that stack with hatred and therefore get to reroll any remaing misses?

Not that it really matters, doesn't affect ranged attacks and at 16 points each they seem ridiculous.

You may only reroll a die one time, so no. Shadow Warriors are decent at one role only: hunting war machines. If your opponent has none, you wasted 16 pts per model.

Tarian
30-03-2011, 23:31
If you're fielding Shadow Warriors, you're wasting 16 points per model :P

Seriously though, there's not much they can do that Eagles can't do/do better, other than pose heroically.

King_Pash
30-03-2011, 23:42
I've recently been trying to make Shadow Warriors viable and while they are overcosted and lack any sort of punch, they are not entirely useless. In most games they've been ignored and left to be. So far they've notched up 2 wounds on an A-bomb that charged, fought off a unit of Beastmen harpies just to run them down and also finish escorting a chariot off the board.

They're not great but for 80pts they add a surprising amount of flexibility. They are able to harass the enemy while fighting off any meagre threat as well as war machine hunting.

What I'm saying is basically that these guys are tricky to use but in my opinion it makes you a better general. It gives you more experience with different units and you have to be clever with them.

Try out a small 5-man unit in your next game and see how they do. I bet they'll surprise you.

Tarian
31-03-2011, 00:31
Oh, don't get me wrong, I almost always include a little 5 man unit. They're usually fanatic bait or light unit harassers, but they never seem to quite be worth it to me.

Chiungalla
31-03-2011, 06:12
Which leads directly to the question:
When is a unit worth it? Only if they deny there points and get some points on there own, or if they give away there points but gain more points in return? Or is sometimes a slight tactical advantage worth 80 points for 5 shadow warriors, although they will not earn those 80 points back and nearly always die?

Pointy Headed Elven Paladin
31-03-2011, 06:52
Which leads directly to the question:
When is a unit worth it? Only if they deny there points and get some points on there own, or if they give away there points but gain more points in return? Or is sometimes a slight tactical advantage worth 80 points for 5 shadow warriors, although they will not earn those 80 points back and nearly always die?

Usually when it can do at least 2 of the 3 things you've just mentioned.

From a purely competitive stand point whenever you include a unit in a list you have to consider the following:

1) Is this unit's point value too expensive for what I want it to do?
2) Will it earn at least most of it's points back if destroyed?
3) What are the tactical advantages of including this unit?
4) Will this unit fit within the scope of the overall battle plan?
5) How big of a role will this unit play in my army list?

For me #5 is probably the most important, followed by #4, #3, #2, & #1. For others I would assume #1 or #2 would be paramount.

Vala.r.aukar
31-03-2011, 18:39
^agreed^

#4 is more important than most people think, especially when it comes to shadow warriors. If you stick a unit of 5 in the average infantry block list, just letting them do their thing and not adjusting tactics, they might pick off a warmachine or delay an enemy unit, and probably die and leave you to question their value. But if you build a list around shooting and harrassment (like HEASA) and baiting the enemy around, whittling them down, and then hitting them with the combat hammer, I think they could work quite well

gogs78
31-03-2011, 22:01
If you're fielding Shadow Warriors, you're wasting 16 points per model :P

couldnt agree more :D

Bloody Nunchucks
01-04-2011, 07:16
i think that when building a list you first have to determine what you want it to do and how you want to play it.

then when creating your list, ask yourself what each units purpose is, if you don't have an answer then scrap the unit. little 5 man units of shadow warriors can do wonders under the right general. if you get charged by a 250 point unit but you position them so that overrun sets the unit up for a flank charge then they helped out a lot. or then can take out WM's and light cavalry and so on.

personally i build my units so that they can last in combat by themselves for a least a turn or two, enough time for me to maneuver for a flank charge or a charge from my heavy hitting SM unit.

a far as Palidins post above i think 4 is very important, as well as the victory points you will score/give up

WarmbloodedLizard
02-04-2011, 14:35
how to fight chaos warriors? I used them today to train my gf against them and easily tabled her even though I never played them before and didn't use any fancy tactics.

It just seems like their warriors cost the same as our elite but aren't as strong. and the hell cannon needs one hit to make any RnF unit useless/too weak.

MVP were Lvl4 shadow mage and spearmen (okkhams or debuffs against enemy).

so, what do you do against them?

Bloody Nunchucks
02-04-2011, 18:13
use your elites against their warriors and choosen (PG,WL,SM) and use dwellers to weaken those units first. with the marauder rape trains you need to buff your large unit of spears, or any unit really with the toughness spell from life (flesh to stone) and then charge them. and flank them....also dwellers cuts a marauder unit in half.....so doing that is a good call. as for the hell cannon, its very hard to kill so unless you are playing cavalry or are able to be in combat for a few turns with it just shoot the **** out of it. on average around 80 bow shots will take down a hell cannon, much less with bolt throwers so by turn like 3 or 4 it should be dead.

i usually take a mage with life(lvl 4) and a mage with metal(lvl 2) against Woc. the metal signature spell will also destroy hell cannons and chaos choosen, warriors.

Bloody Nunchucks
02-04-2011, 18:15
also, at ard boys if your going magic heavy i would assume your taking teclis. so 11 power levels is way way way to much and a HUGE waste, as only 4 levels (teclis) will really only ever be casting

Coldblood666
03-04-2011, 13:45
So what's the word on Swordmasters unit size? Big units or multiple small units? What's your experiences with them?

Francis
03-04-2011, 20:56
I usually take 2 units of 14 swordmasters in my armies, seems to work out fine so far.

Chiungalla
03-04-2011, 21:05
Often I choose a different approach, first spending my points on characters, eagles and core troops, and sometimes chariots. After this is finished I sit back and see how many elite infantry I can afford. And then I go and split those models between large units of white lions and small to medium sized units of swordmasters.

Trains_Get_Robbed
04-04-2011, 01:24
also, at ard boys if your going magic heavy i would assume your taking teclis. so 11 power levels is way way way to much and a HUGE waste, as only 4 levels (teclis) will really only ever be casting

Thats only true if your not runing another charcter with Lore of Death, or Teclis himself with Death.

Besides, you better pray that your opponents don't target Teclis with fast cav. etc. . . or have backhanded ways to killing him outright turn one or flat stopping him in his tracks like L.M.

4 Lvls of instacast magic is nice, however 6-8 is better. Murphy's law my friend, Murphy's law. . .

Bloody Nunchucks
04-04-2011, 06:25
thats very true, as i have found out testing him. i just meant that while he is alive he will be doing most of the casting so multiple mages (3+) is probably wasting some points.

and what do LM do to stop him in his tracks?

Chiungalla
04-04-2011, 22:43
and what do LM do to stop him in his tracks?

Ignoring every dice roll of 6 on Teclis casting, and most likely killing him with the feedback scroll and the bane head on his first not-irristible-spell with more then 3 dice.

Pulstar
05-04-2011, 20:20
So who's going to `Ard Boyz and what tricks do you have up your sleeve?

If your not a HE play please move along..these are not the droids you are looking for.

Bloody Nunchucks
06-04-2011, 00:29
i was going to list my list here but its already on ulthuan so if you want to know it go check it out here http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=67&t=34963

basically a team of PG and SM and a team of spears and SM. with support units. teclis will be with a bunker of 10 PG in a 3x4 with full command putting him in second rank. bsb with BotWD will also be there.

so far i have won 7 testing games and lost 1 and in the lose teclis died second turn to a failed look out sir.... :(

Bloody Nunchucks
06-04-2011, 00:33
and for you HE players, some support in the "what should teclis cost" poll thread would be awesome, people seem to think that HE could still win tournaments and be broken without any magic and ASF......and think teclis should cost 1000+

Tarian
06-04-2011, 00:36
Going to try a heavy DP list this weekend, see how it does, as for Teclis, he *is* undercosted right now for his abilities. And some people do, but some people are always like that, and still complain about Dragon Armor.

The Old Scholar
06-04-2011, 02:23
Often I choose a different approach, first spending my points on characters, eagles and core troops, and sometimes chariots. After this is finished I sit back and see how many elite infantry I can afford. And then I go and split those models between large units of white lions and small to medium sized units of swordmasters.

What about Phoenix Guard? Do you not prefer them?

Trains_Get_Robbed
06-04-2011, 03:23
No the stopping 6's is nice, but killing a T2/3 model first turn is even better.

Bane Head, Feedback scroll, nuff said.

If any L.M player choses your caster Lvl4 before the game to be Bane Headed, then you better throw a save on him (if he dosen't have on *cough* Teclis *cough* before he starts casting, or he will be dead.

3 armies I'm not worried about at Ard Boyz: WoC, L.M, D.E.

2 Armies I' am worried about: Dwarves, Demons.

Tarian
06-04-2011, 03:25
Can just minimize Teclis' casting to avoid the gib, i.e. use smaller spells on 2-3 maybe 4 dice to try to avoid the Feedback from nailing him.

Pulstar
06-04-2011, 12:25
Bloody - Ulthan.net is tagged as a social media site, so it is blocked at work. As for the Teclis cost thread, it's just full of people whining because the HE army took a step up in the meta game with the 8th edition rules.

If taking Teclis (and everyone should in a `Ard Boyz list) a level 1 Mage with High magic (Shield) and the Trickster Shard may not be a bad idea. Giving Teclis a ward save helps, and the trickster shard may help stop the cupped hands from melting his face.

My own list is build around Teclis and a Lv 3 w/ seerstaff both using Light magic. Stacked Pha's and big Banishments. (Add in a few lv1 light mages for Arcane items spam and a the STR bump)

Bloody Nunchucks
06-04-2011, 13:29
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=298998 you can go here then. basically i like to use units that can fight independently unless fighting elite units (like chaos chosen) then they team up or i let the spears fight the nasty unit and cast mindrazor. teclis should be pretty safe. i will probably be switching out the SG for more archers and a new unit of spears.

and since ard boys is open listed the first thing you say to your opponent is "do you have a feedback scroll?" also im more worried about skaven and dwarfs...just because i dont play against them a lot so im not sure how to play, im assuming i want to rush the dwarves as fast as possible?

and why are you going to ulthuan why at work? shouldnt you be working :)

Pulstar
06-04-2011, 14:08
I am working...it's just I sit at a computer all day with 1 to 2 free mins here and there. So I flip over to warseer to read the cries from WoC players about how Teclis is undercost and how SoA is broken. (WoC tears are delicious.)

And I can't check it at home because the kids/wife never give me a free moment. And my computer didn't come with us during our recent move. A tragic story involving a nice gaming rig, airplanes, and a knitting store. (But I digress.)

On your list, I would give Teclis lore of shadow. It's the best stand alone lore. If you have another mage, then Death would work as you could use the extra PD to power it.

tr1pod
06-04-2011, 15:40
and for you HE players, some support in the "what should teclis cost" poll thread would be awesome, people seem to think that HE could still win tournaments and be broken without any magic and ASF......and think teclis should cost 1000+

LOL, 501 points would suffice (to stop him being in a 2k game)

Francis
12-04-2011, 06:37
LOL, 501 points would suffice (to stop him being in a 2k game)

I think he is fine the way he is. People just got to live with the fact that magic is very good now and Teclis is the best at it. He is still T2 with no saves at all so shouldn't be that much of a problem. unless ofc ppl go with the 3 wide PG option, but that is just bad form in my mind.

Tarian
12-04-2011, 19:33
Used a block of 30 Dragon Princes at 2500 this weekend, have a battle report on it, it worked better than I thought it would!

Bloody Nunchucks
12-04-2011, 19:40
so what have people found to be the best way of protecting teclis in games (ard boy test games) small units of PG, 20 man units of out mandatory spears, small archer units, BotWD?

with ard boys coming up i would think this is one of the prominent questions that HE players have, unless they are playing a cavalry list in which case good for you and good luck. make people aware that non magic heavy lists DO exist for us

Trains_Get_Robbed
13-04-2011, 06:09
Personally, in the second round, I'm running my Telics in a unit of Archers/Spearmen depending on the opponent.

At the moment I just don't know what Lore I want to give Teclis. :/

Pulstar
13-04-2011, 12:50
so what have people found to be the best way of protecting teclis in games (ard boy test games) small units of PG, 20 man units of out mandatory spears, small archer units, BotWD?

with ard boys coming up i would think this is one of the prominent questions that HE players have, unless they are playing a cavalry list in which case good for you and good luck. make people aware that non magic heavy lists DO exist for us

Run him in a big unit of something. Make it really annoying (37 archers with FC BoEF, the BSB and a 2nd character) so the other guy has to go after it.

Then buff the crap out of it with Life/Light/High magic so it doesn't go anywhere. If he doesn't go after it, Teclis will run him off the table. If he does go after it, then the frees up the rest of your army to run him off the table.

Bloody Nunchucks
14-04-2011, 02:53
anybody bringing reavers to ardboys?

Trains_Get_Robbed
14-04-2011, 04:28
^^^ Why they are the second most point-sink in the book, sitting right in front of Shadow Warriors. Plus, why would I ever want to slow the enemy from getting to combat with me?

Meanwhile, aganist Warmachine crews outside of Empire, they are suspect at best, good luck killing Dwarfs, a Hellcannnon or Skaven crews.

Pulstar
19-04-2011, 19:24
So how did everyone do at 'Ard Boyz?

I see Bloody won at his story, how did everyone else do?

Myself I totally "Rocked the `Ard Boyz". Well, replaced "rocked" with "clean" and "`Ard Boyz" with "gutters", and that's what I did this weekend.

Drakemaster
20-04-2011, 16:23
Meanwhile, aganist Warmachine crews outside of Empire, they are suspect at best, good luck killing Dwarfs, a Hellcannnon or Skaven crews.
Dwarf crew are certainly tougher, but Reavers do a better job than Eagles against them. I don't see the problem with Skaven crew though - these days the cannon just has three standard T3 crew, so the same as Empire war machines. Ditto the Catapult, but they are T4 and have frenzy - still, Reavers shouldn't have any real trouble with them. And they certainly do the business against Dark Elf, Brettonnian, High Elf, Goblin, and Tomb King crews.

Hellcannonns, of course, are a different sort of problem altogether.

Tarian
20-04-2011, 19:15
Personally, considering how much Reavers cost, I'd rather take a min. unit of Silver Helms if I don't want the eagles, as they lose Vanguard, but gain a much better AS, and they're fast enough to close in anyways.

Bloody Nunchucks
20-04-2011, 20:52
hellcannon are the only WM that we have problems with, the problem is that every WoC army will have two of these. and taking SH's for WM hunting is not a good idea because eagles are better and even SH's would be destroyed by a hellcannon

Eladimir
20-04-2011, 21:57
Well after 3 island of blood sets, a chariot, some UK purchaes for eagles I now have 50 LSG/Spears and 30 SWM which give me a decent army start.

Should my next unit box to buy be Phoenix Guard or White Lions?
At first I thought Phoenix for sure but checking people army lists as of late I didn't see alot of them present.

PS. thanks for all the great advice so far, on about page 60ish
PPS. anyone want 15 reavers :)

Nocculum
20-04-2011, 23:18
Reavers with a Standard allow you to claim objectives at the last minute, their purpose is, in my eyes, very much to avoid getting hit, distract, pepper spray with their bows then rush in to claim victory at the last.

Even if they only hold up a flank for a turn, they are worth the investment.

At least in my eyes anyway, and I intend to return to fantasy with a Tor Yvresse list so I might be biased...but give them credit :p.

Tarian
20-04-2011, 23:24
I like Phoenix Guard as a bunker for mages.

And I personally don't like Reavers, but I run a heavy knight list, so I might be biased. That, and the first time I fielded them, I put 5 down, and 1 DE RBT put them all down. Lucky shot? Yes, but still...

YoungKing
21-04-2011, 02:08
Why won't it let me post!

sigmarus
21-04-2011, 03:32
I ran teclis in ard boyz round 1 in a unit of 35 PG with lots of heroes. Teclis stayed in the second rank and had lore of beasts. My unit was a deathstar, but it damn well worked. 1st place and on to the semis!

Bloody Nunchucks
21-04-2011, 05:13
i put teclis with a lvl2 and a bsb with BotWD in a unit of 20 spears.....he never died.

Bloody Nunchucks
21-04-2011, 05:14
and reavers are not the best choice because people are taking more shooting nowadays and magic is better. if the enemy decides to hit them with any shooting or magic missiles they will be wiped out.

Nocculum
21-04-2011, 06:30
If they're firing at your Reavers instead of your Swordmasters or White Lions, you're already winning.

YoungKing
21-04-2011, 22:12
Hey guys, getting my High Elves going and had a few questions.

I'm trying to get to 1000 points for now to get some games in and learn the rules and everything but I'm not sure exactly what would make up a good 1k list. I know it's kind of an oxymoron, but I'd still like to have a good list to start out with.

What I have right now is 16 Spearmen, Mage and Noble boxes, 10 Phoenix Guard and the IoB contents.

From what I've been reading I'm not too interested in using the Reavers, but I'm intrigued by the Seaguard. What I was thinking, list wise, is this:

Mage lvl2, Silver Wand
24 Seaguard, FC
10 Swordmasters, Bladelord w/Loec
10 Phoenix Guard, Musician/Standard
10 White Lions, Musician

Kind of basic, but gives me the special units and some ranged attack. Most likely go Life on the Mage, list comes in just under 1k.

Good start?

Tarian
21-04-2011, 23:32
That's definitely a good start for a list! Solid for a 1k list, though I prefer Shadow to Life, but that's personal preference.

YoungKing
21-04-2011, 23:35
Cool, thanks. I wasn't sure if it would be too "sporadic".

I'm thinking Life to keep those elite units up, and is it also a big deal not to have a Full Command in those units?

Tarian
22-04-2011, 00:09
Not really, though some Standards would be great for "Blood and Glory" scenarios.

Citadel97501
22-04-2011, 03:51
What type of character builds would people suggest at 1250, no named characters? Its been a while since I have played at under 2000 points, and I have a tourney coming up?

I was thinking of the following? The Metal mage is to deal with a guy that keeps bringing Steam Tanks whenever possible, and the damn thing hurts!

Prince on foot
-Armor Caledor, Vambraces of Defense, Great Weapon

Mage on foot
-Lore of Life
-Seer Staff of Saphery
-Level 2

Mage on foot
-Lore of Metal
-Silver Wand

Trains_Get_Robbed
22-04-2011, 07:01
Princes ^^^ aren't worth their LD and combat boost at that low points, you should instead take a Bsb for his rerolling abilites on everything, although he will have -1 to his ward, he will serve you far greater than a Lord (assuming standard setup).

Instead run a Archmage with (life/shadow) with a scroll and small allowance for items, or the Annulian Crystal for some magic defense.

If your interested in the +1 Ld the Prince has, just instead take the +1 LD banner on spears/lsg and throw your mage in their -boom LD 10.

Just make sure if your the aggresive type to include something fast in your list to take out the minimal warmachines, or to act as distracting units ie; Tiranoic Chariots/Great Eagles/ Dragon Princes/Silver Helms.

Nocculum
22-04-2011, 17:58
Two mages, level one the both of them and a Noble Battle Standard Bearer would be a lot more fleixble and cost effective.

One mage with an offensive, lore, one defensive (at that, I'd suggest Beasts and High for the free +1 to dispel).

Tarian
22-04-2011, 19:38
High Elf mages always get the +1, and I'd stick with one level 2 at this points, as I never liked lvl 1 mages much. And with the +1, you'd get +3 to Dispel, which is quite good, especially at these point values.

Mirbeau
22-04-2011, 20:39
My first game today, 1250 against Nick (bromley GW staff's) super shooty Dark Elves and I got mullered! I didn't even cause a wound, as I was blown away before I got to his lines. He was a top bloke, and a canny player.

I took - Prince - armour of heroes, vambraces of defence, + hand wep, in white lions.
Lev 2, life, loremasters cloak, silver wand, in swordmasters
Lev 1, life, iron cure icon, in seaguard
23 Seaguard - full command + shields in 3 ranks of 8
11 swordmasters - champ has armour of caledor
9 white lions, banner of flaming attacks


He had 30+ crossbows, a lev 3 on a peg (and he rolled three 6's for spell selection - ouch!), smallish black guard, a noble on a cold-one and two bolt-throwers.

His shooty stuff took a hill on the left - his fast stuff took the right flank.

I deployed my lions on the left, and the seaguard (with swordmasters behind them) in the center - both were meant to head at full-pelt into his lines.

The lions and prince were the first to get trashed - they made it to the woods but due to the new los rules they could be seen and were sent packing (champ and prince srvived and fled off the table). This was an early blow - I thought the woods would act a sort of area terrain making shooting much harder, and giving me cover.

His lvl3 flew behind my lines and unleashed a real torrent of spells. Black Horror was savage! I thought my swordmasters would be alright (with the 2+ robes save) but as black horror doesn't roll to wound, I didn't get the 2+ ward... they died, horribly!

The seaguard were taking 60 or so crossbow shots a turn, and despite earthblood and flesh to stone, they didn't stand much of a chance and by turn 4, the remenants of all 3 units were fleeing, a total rout!

I'm playing him again thursday -1500 points and my list will be more like

Archmage - life
Noble, eagle? (I want something fast to hunt his mage!)
mage - life/high lv1/2

24 seaguard - two ranks of twelve
10 seaguard - rearguard

11 swordmaster
10 white lions
5 reavers - hunting loners and machines

Bolt-thrower - give him something to advance towards.

Thoughts? I'm kind of limited by what I own - which isn't much more than the above.... I think his list will remain something like the above.

Citadel97501
22-04-2011, 22:15
Mirbeau,

That is an OK list, but I would think that you got murdered due to a complete lack of Phoenix Guard? I will never play without a unit of at least 14, and a hero stuck in them. That 4+ ward save makes them one of the best units in the game, there is a reason that 1/2 the WOC tactica is figuring out how to get a 4+/ or 3+ ward save on chosen.

Tarian
23-04-2011, 03:20
I'd say more of a complete lack of models.

With the models you have, I'd say keep the points lower, and try to bulk out some units. Maybe even proxy if you want, as you don't have the numbers to eat that many shots.

Mirbeau
23-04-2011, 11:21
Yeah you are both on to something, cheers for the advice. To be honest, one reason I took the drubbing I did was due to me forgetting the rules for a musicians swift reform. His Sorceress did most of the damage to my force, and that would have allowed me to take care of her straight away with lots of seaguard arrow death! But more bodies on the ground will be a very good thing.

Opiee
03-05-2011, 00:15
good stuff!

Mirbeau
03-05-2011, 19:42
Second game and MUCH better performance, lost still, but there was only a point in it. And arguably he won due to a misinterperation of the pendant of k rules (in his favour) My list:

Lvl 4 life - book of H
Lvl 1 High - Feedback Scroll OR Loremaster's cloak
Noble - Eagle, enchanted shield, heavy armour.

19 seaguard - 2 ranks of ten, full command.
10 seaguard (lvl4 bunker)

11 swordmasters
7 p-guard - totally sacrificial - i want them to be shot.
5 reavers
5 shadow warriors.

total: 1501. His was more of the same (see near top of page)

I was relatively impressed with most of the army. The noble didn't do too well, due to some overcaution, the mage bunker died far too easily so their size may need to be increased? The shadow warriors didn't do anything much at all. I'm looking foward to the next game hugely, should be thursday, though I haven't a clue against who/what.

I was pleasantly suprised by both the p-guard and reavers - and am wondering, what do you think I could drop to include more of them?! I'd like to stick to 1500 as I find it a decent size for learning the finer points of the game. Any advice is appreciated.

Tarian
03-05-2011, 19:44
Could drop some of the Seaguard down to basic Spears, and the Shadow Warriors. I use the PG for my bunkers, and at 2500, I field a block of 25-30 of 'em.

YoungKing
07-05-2011, 21:25
Quick question concerning Sword Masters...

I've got 20 IoB SMs and I'm not sure how to roll them in a ~1k list, or even beyond that. I know you guys talked about the best way to run them, numbers wise, but I can't find the posts in here. So if a few of you might give me some input, that would be great. I was thinking a unit of 10 in 1k, but I could do two units of 10, or one of 14 for example.

To give you some context, my 500 points of specials was going to be:
10 Phoenix Guard, Musician, Standard Bearer
10 Sword Masters, Bladelord, Talisman of Loec
5 Dragon Princes

Just seems silly ATM to roll 10 PG, so advice on that would be great, as to specials and Sword Masters in 1k.

That brings me to another problem. Obviously IoB gets you 20 SMs, but you're going to have three that are a Full Command extra... Can you just throw them in the extra ranks without the banner and pipe? Or should I make them up and run either 2 units of 10 for now or one of 14 until I get more...

I know I'm a little all over the place, but hopefully you get what I'm going on about.

Tarian
08-05-2011, 02:05
I run mine in a unit of 14, 7 wide, 2 deep. That way they get good frontage. No Banner, no Musician, just a champ for the extra attack (and chance to whack a hero in challenge)

As for the PG, I prefer them in large blocks, or not at all. They don't hit hard enough for a "speedbump".

EnternalVoid
08-05-2011, 06:51
I to often run my in units of 14, 7 wide. But what command I give them often depends on the rest of the army or their role. In the last campaign they started with just a musician for fast reforms and served a more support role for either my spearmen or my phoenix guard. Later they were given a standard with the banner of eternal flame and they diced some Hydras. I even had one time where they were reduced to 4 and thanks to the banner and a tad of magic support they killed an unwounded Hydra in a single round *Thank you shadow magic*.

Have to agree with Tarian though about the Phoenix Guard. I have gone from taking 20 to taking 25-30 with 8th ed. That said I use shadow magic often to make up for their damage output, but you can't always rely on magic and very likely they will try to soften up a small unit to make it easy to beat in combat.

With your list of specials I would consider dropping one of the 3 choices. With those points you can better shore up the other two options. Like if you drop the Phoenix guard you can round out the Swordmasters more. Which one you drop though would depending on what you plan to do with them. For example, lets say you want the Dragon Princes to deal with hydras a bit and the like, a banner with the eternal flame banner makes them good hunters. Of if you want the dragon princes as some sort of support or war machine hunter, 5-6 with musician is enough more often then not.

Trains_Get_Robbed
08-05-2011, 07:38
However, if your in the boat of "Phoniex Guard suck" as I'am, then you will want to run a slightly larger unit of Swordmasters or White Lions and make them a focal point.

For example, 21 S.M 7-wide with F.C and the BoS, or BoEF.

At 1K your not going to be able to fit that much in. I would shoot for a Lvl 2 with the Silver Wand, a block of 25 Spearmen, a single block of special troops (depends on what your playstyle and tendencies are like) and a support unit like a Tiranoic Chariot or Dragon Princes etc. . . The remaining points I would just invest in a BsB or perhaps a Bolt Thrower if you want to particpate in all phases, the rest is irregardless.

YoungKing
08-05-2011, 15:38
However, if your in the boat of "Phoniex Guard suck" as I'am, then you will want to run a slightly larger unit of Swordmasters or White Lions and make them a focal point.

For example, 21 S.M 7-wide with F.C and the BoS, or BoEF.

At 1K your not going to be able to fit that much in. I would shoot for a Lvl 2 with the Silver Wand, a block of 25 Spearmen, a single block of special troops (depends on what your playstyle and tendencies are like) and a support unit like a Tiranoic Chariot or Dragon Princes etc. . . The remaining points I would just invest in a BsB or perhaps a Bolt Thrower if you want to particpate in all phases, the rest is irregardless.

Hey thanks guys.

Like I said, this is more focused on 1000 points, even though I've got more now, but I'll be playing my first few games at around 1000.

My list is basically exactly as you had it, lvl 2 Mage with Silver Wand, 25 Spearmen FC, 10 Archers(mage bunker), and 10 Phoenix Guard, Musician, Standard Bearer, 10 Sword Masters, Bladelord, Talisman of Loec, 5 Dragon Princes.

The difference is I now have 20 Sword Masters compared to 10 PG, so I can take a big unit of them if I want.

I guess I'm afraid of spending the points all on one unit and not having enough to go around, because I'll only have one real "anvil" which is the Spearmen.

The Princes are there to be able to take out war machines and give me some quick response.

I'm considering rolling 14 or 17 Sword Masters and leave the PG at home until bigger games when I get 20-30.

That a good idea?

Tarian
08-05-2011, 16:10
Spreading points doesn't work as well as in 7th, and MSU is having lots of problems, especially against Horde units.

YoungKing
08-05-2011, 16:24
Spreading points doesn't work as well as in 7th, and MSU is having lots of problems, especially against Horde units.

Alright, well I'm thinking of changing my special to:
5 Dragon Princes
14 Sword Masters w/FC, Talisman of Loec, Banner of Eternal Flames
Tiranoc Chariot.

I threw the BoEF on there because I know my first few games will be against TKs(my best friend is collecting them) and I'm assuming flaming attacks could come in handy for that cheap.

Chariot and DP's give me a bit more quick response to get to his archers, or any other shooting unit in other armies, and the Sword Masters are pretty self explanatory.

What I could do though, is drop the Chariot and try and fit in a lvl 1 Shadow Mage, as I'd probably take Life on the Lvl2 w/SW...

Who knows...

Tarian
09-05-2011, 02:19
My 1k list only has 1 lvl 2 with the Silver Wand, though I take Shadow on her. That list seems pretty good, and the chariot or Princes can support the Spears, with the other helps cover the Swordmasters or takes out Warmachine/shooters. (I'd recommend Chariot helps spears, Princes go hunting.)

YoungKing
09-05-2011, 03:53
My 1k list only has 1 lvl 2 with the Silver Wand, though I take Shadow on her. That list seems pretty good, and the chariot or Princes can support the Spears, with the other helps cover the Swordmasters or takes out Warmachine/shooters. (I'd recommend Chariot helps spears, Princes go hunting.)

I'm curious as to what you would roll in the specials for around 1000 points.

I could get 14 Lions and 14 Sword Masters, but I feel the DP give me the ability to hit ranged enemies...

Trains_Get_Robbed
09-05-2011, 06:14
Run the BoEF on Spears ^^^

Run something useful on the S.M, lik BoS or Razor, Balance, etc. . .

I always take chariots at 2,000, or below, they can be throw away units a 85 a pop, and can also support my Spears or in the event the my Special infantry block has run off.

Tarian
09-05-2011, 13:09
I'm curious as to what you would roll in the specials for around 1000 points.

I could get 14 Lions and 14 Sword Masters, but I feel the DP give me the ability to hit ranged enemies...

My 1k list is roughly the lvl2 Shadow with SW, 20 LSG, 5 DP, 14 SM, and a couple eagles, magic items thrown to taste.

Crimson Templar
10-05-2011, 19:58
Hey all, my first post on the HE thread. I have an amry I am building based on 2 IoB sets plus 20 archers, 20 spears and a chariot that I got on ebay. Thearchers are the old light armour ones and i like them better than the new ones with ogre hands. Due to a little modeling I have the army set roughly like thios right now.....

Mage
20 archers, or 2 units of 10
20 sea guard with full command
20 spears with full command
15 sword masters with full command
5 reavers w/bows
5 reavers w/ bows and spears
1 chariot

Here is where I need help. I am going to include a BSB but do not know where to put him. I know I need more punch but can only financially afford to add either a unit of white lions or PG. Based on the rest of the army, which of these tow is a better fit? I also see that many people run SM 7 wide, should I do 7x2 instead of 5x3? Anyway, any suggestions would be cool. Thanks.

Tarian
10-05-2011, 23:08
If you need punch, lions hit harder, and the standard BSB on foot is Armor of Caledor, Guardian Phoenix, and a great weapon, and I'd put him with the spears.

Personally, I'm a fan of PG though.

Francis
11-05-2011, 14:35
Right, here's a new question. Is it possible to build a HE army that will be able to compete on equal terms with a powered up DE army, without depending on powerful magic (Archmage, BoH, Teclis)? If so how? Convince me!

Bloody Nunchucks
11-05-2011, 15:09
it will be very hard. if you want to do it you have to meta-game to the max. i would go to ulthuan to look at competitive ard boy lists, it would be easier then me listing what to take. and if you dont even have an archmage you can forget it, we have the weakest troops in the game and we need life buffs to keep us around to fight. with DE's they can shoot to much of you before you get to combat.

basically you need the below to build a base for your army (based on a 3k game)

lvl 4 with silver wand, talisman of saphery and folariths robe (life)
bsb with armour of caledor and either dawnstone or guardian pheonix
lvl 2 with seerstaff and high magic, take flames and something else

big block of spears
two units of archers

large unit of elites (SM's or WL's)
another unit of elites
small unit of maybe 6 DP's
another unit of either 6 DP's or 14 elite infantry or a lion chariot...whatever you prefer

two bolt throwers
two+ eagles

Crimson Templar
11-05-2011, 15:22
What do you consider a big block of spears? Is 20 too small for 8th ed rules?

Tarian
11-05-2011, 19:07
Lords (10.8%):

Prince Alain Dar-Corith:
Barded Elven Steed
Great Weapon
Dragon Armor
Helm of Fortune
Talisman of Saphery
Amulet of Light

Heroes (15.8%):

Noble:
Barded Elven Steed
Dragon Armor
Great Weapon
Sacred Incense
Potion of Foolhardiness

Noble
Barded Elven Steed
Dragon Armor
Great Weapon
Ironcurse Amulet

Battle Standard
Standard
Barded Steed
Shield
Dragon Armor
Lance
Banner of the World Dragon

Core (25.08%)
Archers x17

Archers x20

Archers x20

Specials (44.24%):
Dragon Princes x30
Standard
Champion
Musician
Skeinsliver
Banner of Ellyrion

Silver Helms x5
Shields

Rares:
Eagles x2

Has worked pretty well for me so far, and I have BatReps for it as well.

Siphon
11-05-2011, 20:18
What do you consider a big block of spears? Is 20 too small for 8th ed rules?

No. Our core is so expensive that it would be almost counter productive to make huge units of Spear Elves. Dwellers will eat it alive, most artillery chews it up. My personal opinion is you want the smaller footprint for our low save, low toughness core.

I tend to run mine in groups of 20-25 and have never felt they were too small. I'll usually run two of them, and set them near each other. I'll have one take a charge, then have the other hit the flank. With the crazy amount of re-rolling hits you get from two units of Spear Elves, you can do some damage this way to just about anything. You might want to have your general or BSB nearby after accepting that first charge though, just to make sure you don't bolt if something hits you hard.

Tarian
11-05-2011, 22:56
Agreed, my spears are usually 20-25 as well, and they hold up pretty well.

Citadel97501
11-05-2011, 23:05
If I want spear elves to act as an anvil, I rely on Light of Battle. . . I have found its the only way to ensure they will not break, I personally would rather just use them as intended, aka as point filler even with their ASF they just aren't good enough to kill things without heavy magic support.

Siphon
11-05-2011, 23:08
Courage of Aenarion works too and is in a better lore for HE, in my opinion.

Crimson Templar
11-05-2011, 23:18
So I know that running a HE Horde is a bad idea, but I am trying to figure out the rules as I am new to Fantasy (long hiatas). All units can fight in two ranks due to supporting attacks, spears allow an additional rank. So first question is, does the marital prowess skill mean that the HE second rank gets full attacks and the third rank is supporting, or are both the second and third ranks supporting? Next, if the spears were in a horde, would they get four ranks of attacks? No I do not plan on running a 10x5 unit of elves, but was just curious of the rules. I may run a block like that of gobbos though.

Siphon
11-05-2011, 23:22
Spear Elves get first 2 ranks fighting, +1 for spears, +1 for martial prowess, and if in horde, get +1 for horde.

So if you do like I do and run a block of 20-25 in 5x4 or 5x5 you get 21 attacks assuming you bought a champ and did not charge.

Crimson Templar
11-05-2011, 23:50
I guess I confused myself in the first place by thinking they had multiple attacks. You are saying that in a 5x4 block, first rank fights as normal, second rank fights do to supporting attack rule, third rank fights because of spear rule and the fourth rank can fight due to martial prowess? If that is correct then I like the ew elves a lot more than I thought. And here I was starting HE because I fell in love with the seaguard models.

Tarian
12-05-2011, 00:18
One bit of nastiness is HE spears with Occam's Mindrazor. 21 attacks, WS4, usually with rerolls at S8... so pretty.

Siphon
12-05-2011, 00:36
I guess I confused myself in the first place by thinking they had multiple attacks. You are saying that in a 5x4 block, first rank fights as normal, second rank fights do to supporting attack rule, third rank fights because of spear rule and the fourth rank can fight due to martial prowess? If that is correct then I like the ew elves a lot more than I thought. And here I was starting HE because I fell in love with the seaguard models.

This is correct. And as the gentleman above me mentioned, Occum's on a unit of Spear Elves pretty much makes a mess of anything aside from Stanks and Caskets.

Crimson Templar
12-05-2011, 01:13
Does that stack with the BoEF? Also, how many power dice do you recommend to pull that spell off?

Tarian
12-05-2011, 01:17
Occum's? A lot, heh... I'd say 4-5 at least, possibly all 6. And don't know about the BoEF, since I never use it.

YoungKing
12-05-2011, 01:26
At 2000 points is there really only enough room to go with either a Prince or Archmage? And if so, is having a Lord, hero, and BsB too much points investment at that level?

Just wondering because I'm looking at what I'd like to take for a 2000 points list, and I can't really figure that one out.

Tarian
12-05-2011, 01:38
I'd say yes, and I'd say go with Archmage and a BSB, maybe toss a level 2 in.

EnternalVoid
15-05-2011, 07:48
Yes Mindrazor and banner of Eternal Flame do stack. I have had 4 swordmaster's kill an unwounded Hydra that way.

Crimson Templar
19-05-2011, 03:33
So I have been looking at some of the lists in the army lists section and it looks like a lot of people like to run a BSB and 2 mages. Does anyone run a prince, BSB and Lvl 2 mage. I know I need a BSB but I love the prince on griffin model and therefore can not run a Lvl 4 mage( unless at 3000+ points). Anyone have good experiance without a mage lord?

Tarian
19-05-2011, 03:35
Hardly standard, but I run a Prince, 2 Nobles, and a BSB Noble, and it does fine.

For non-deathstar units though, an Archmage is very handy. I wouldn't say necessary, but the +5 to Dispel and the additional spells are very nice.

And if I was running a prince at <3k, I'd put him on a horse, but that's just me.

Crimson Templar
19-05-2011, 03:57
Like I said, I like the IoB prince on griff model and want to use it, I was just not sure if it was viable to run only one mage.

Tarian
19-05-2011, 04:08
One mage is viable, depending on the army you face. If you run into a mage heavy army it's going to hurt, as some of those spells can do a lot of damage to your expensive elves.

(Sent you a PM, by the way.)

Francis
19-05-2011, 12:20
Use a lvl 2 with High Magic and Annulian Crystal, that should make you able to resist most of the enemy magic.

Mirbeau
19-05-2011, 13:05
I'm playing Beastmen today at 1500 points. My list will be something like -

Lvl 4 (life) with the book of hoeth

Noble on eagle with h.armour, lance and enchanted shield

19 seaguard (command, where the lvl1 lurks)
10 seaguard (bodyguard for lvl 4)

10 white lions

11 swordmasters

5 reavers

5 shadow warriors.

I've never fought them before - so any general advice?

Olannon
19-05-2011, 16:57
Use a lvl 2 with High Magic and Annulian Crystal, that should make you able to resist most of the enemy magic.

+1. This is the minimum a High Elf army can invest in magic, in my opinion.

slingersam
19-05-2011, 19:39
Something to focus on when your playing <2000pts is to decrease your magic capabilities. At such low levels, magic will feel like your throwing out nuclear bombs, so do what my group does and roll 2D3 dice instead of the 2D6. And ignore the 6th spell from each lore.

To tell you the truth the Lvl 4 + book is a bad decision right now because you will destroy his army while being safe yourself. In such a small point game kind of a **** move, anyway on to your list, its lacking meat very low number models, field your Seaguard as 1unit, also your prince on an eagle is not going to do much by himself, I would take him with the armor of destiny + greatsword and throw him in a unit of Swordmasters or white lions. Combine the swordmasters and white lions into either swordmasters or white lions. Also Reavers aren't that effective so what you can do with them is make them count as silver helms. Try to add more meat to your list, as characters won't win you the game units will (except for your mage he will dominate)

Francis
19-05-2011, 19:58
What's with all the magic hate Slinger? Did the winds of magic touch your models in a bad place? He asked for advice on how to fight with his army, not how to play the game. We got BrB and army books for that.

Now in all seriousness on the list, I don't think it is unbalanced. The BoH can be nasty but magic is generally fickle and you other unit choices isn't overly powerful. As to the prince on eagle, he may not be the best against beastmen but try him out and have fun. He might surprise you. The Reavers too isn't a very strong unit choice but light cav often have their role to play, and that role is annoying the enemy. Good luck Mirbeau.

Crimson Templar
19-05-2011, 21:34
Everyone here knows I am new(ish) to thefantasy realm but....

Mirbeau - run the LSG in a large group and deploy them in two ranks to take advantage of shooting, when you are about ready for HtH, reform to take advantage of the spears.

Trains_Get_Robbed
19-05-2011, 23:59
Whoever said that H.E spears should NEVER be ran in horde, has not list-making commonsense in the slightest.

Spears can be ran in horde formation, it just depends on the game. Frankly, the higher the pointed game, the better H.E get, in games under 3,000, I would never consider Hording anything in the H.E army out as there isn't enough bodies on the board as is, but at 3,000 depending on the cheese and types of players involved, you can easily run horded out H.E units.

I personally run a Horde of Swordmasters every game at 3,000, as the synergy my Army List has with it works wonderfully.

Bloody Nunchucks
20-05-2011, 05:59
i run 2 units of 21 SM's in 3k games, and they do wonderfull. under 3k i agree, hording any of our expensive troops is a bad idea but beyond that we kind of need to since smaller units wont hold up to the huge units your opponents will field.

Mirbeau
21-05-2011, 00:56
Something to focus on when your playing <2000pts is to decrease your magic capabilities. At such low levels, magic will feel like your throwing out nuclear bombs, so do what my group does and roll 2D3 dice instead of the 2D6. And ignore the 6th spell from each lore.

To tell you the truth the Lvl 4 + book is a bad decision right now because you will destroy his army while being safe yourself. In such a small point game kind of a **** move, aAlso Reavers aren't that effective so what you can do with them is make them count as silver helms. Try to add more meat to your list, as characters won't win you the game units will (except for your mage he will dominate)

Thats fair I guess,the mage is pretty nasty, but I've tried to balance him out with some 'weaker' choices like the reavers (though they have served me well) in the rest of the list. I'm a painter and fluff player really, winning doesn't mean too much to me! As it was, I only cast (or attempted to cast) Dwellers once in the two games (if by any chance my opponent is on here, he can attest to this), and it took out a quarter of a unit (9 gors). Thats about the most damage I've done with it thus far, it did about the same against the dark elves armies I've faced.

I forgot to add in a unit of 5 shadow warriors when I posted the list above, but the army does have quite a low body-count (even though I've gone over the minimum core), it is an elite an expensive army. And I don't like the spearmen and archer miniatures. Thats the main reason why I've gone with a level four life, so I can get regrowth and keep them alive!

Mirbeau
21-05-2011, 01:08
What's with all the magic hate Slinger? Did the winds of magic touch your models in a bad place? He asked for advice on how to fight with his army, not how to play the game. We got BrB and army books for that.

Now in all seriousness on the list, I don't think it is unbalanced. The BoH can be nasty but magic is generally fickle and you other unit choices isn't overly powerful. As to the prince on eagle, he may not be the best against beastmen but try him out and have fun. He might surprise you. The Reavers too isn't a very strong unit choice but light cav often have their role to play, and that role is annoying the enemy. Good luck Mirbeau.

Cheers mate! Yeah, the eagle noble bounced off everything, and his march blocking was limited due to a bsb. Still, he's cheap and useful against some armies, just not worth taking in every list! Played two games, the first was a massacre and my first win! Due to regrowth, I'd only lost two white lions at the end. I clumped my deployment, and pretty much funnelled his superior numbers into a position where they wouldn't count, with the seaguard as bait, and the elite units attacking together, the noble on eagle getting flank charges. My opponent made the mistake of trying to charge and failing two turns in a row, and besides that just generally had very bad luck indeed.

We had a second game, which was a solid win to him I'm glad to say. I tried out shadow with my level 4 and 1, and it didn't really synergise with my army. My units were too spread out, I had bad luck with miscasts and I couldn't thin his units fast enough. Also, he played a blinder!

Playing him again next thursday, he's bring 2500 points of Skaven. He's a hard, but pretty balanced player, but I have no idea what he'll bring! Once again, any general advice would be good! I'm thinking of bringing

Archmage, book of h
Lvl 2 maybe crystal or wand
Bsb
Noble something hitty and an enchanted shield

32 spearmen
29 seaguard
20 archers

28 white lions flaming banner
15 swordmasters
5 dragon princes
chariot
5 reavers
5 shadow warriors

eagle
bolt-thrower

A well-rounded list? I'm particularly intrested in thoughts on the white lions -
I'd also like to get a griffon prince in there...

Francis
21-05-2011, 06:51
If you take the Crystal and he takes a Gray Seer he is going to get a bit sad I would guess. The Crystal is very good. The list is fine as far as I can tell. Although you should probably reduce the SMs to 14, they are only going to deploy in 2 lines anyway right? I guess WLs is supposed to kill the HPA? They are a good bet in any case.

I am not completely sure what the lone BT is supposed to achieve though, when I bring BTs I usually bring at least two, in order to concentrate fire a bit. Your opponent will also probably take it out in the second turn with his tunnelling Gutter Runners with Poisoned slings, at least that is what my brother usually does :cries:

Finally, although I did rant a bit at Slingersam with regards to his attack on magic in general, the BoH is very very good, some may say overpowered. It might not be a good idea to take it against the same opponent every time. Just so you don't get accused of playing a cheesy list (Although with SWs and Reavers in the list anybody will have a hard time doing that).

Kloud13
21-05-2011, 07:12
Back when the HE book was all new during 7th edition, Alot of HE players pulled their Silverhelms out of their army case, and set them on a shelf. Now that 8th Edition is here, the first thing every HE player should do, is go back to the shelf where your Silverhelms have been collecting dust, push them to the side of the shelf, and make room for your Dragons, Reavers, Bolt Throwers, and Shadow Warriors. The sooner you forget those point sinks exsist, the better your games will be with the High Elves.

Citadel97501
21-05-2011, 07:25
Back when the HE book was all new during 7th edition, Alot of HE players pulled their Silverhelms out of their army case, and set them on a shelf. Now that 8th Edition is here, the first thing every HE player should do, is go back to the shelf where your Silverhelms have been collecting dust, push them to the side of the shelf, and make room for your Dragons, Reavers, Bolt Throwers, and Shadow Warriors. The sooner you forget those point sinks exsist, the better your games will be with the High Elves.

Agreed. . .

slingersam
21-05-2011, 09:27
What's with all the magic hate Slinger? Did the winds of magic touch your models in a bad place? He asked for advice on how to fight with his army, not how to play the game. We got BrB and army books for that.

Now in all seriousness on the list, I don't think it is unbalanced. The BoH can be nasty but magic is generally fickle and you other unit choices isn't overly powerful. As to the prince on eagle, he may not be the best against beastmen but try him out and have fun. He might surprise you. The Reavers too isn't a very strong unit choice but light cav often have their role to play, and that role is annoying the enemy. Good luck Mirbeau.

While that was way out of line. As a level 4 + book is really strong in 2000pts, at 1500pts its down right disgusting, especially with a 2D6 power dice. Anyway doesn't matter. Also I have no problem with magic as Lizardmen are my main army, if their was no magic the army would be garbage this edition, pure and simple. Anyway gl in your game.

I disagree on saying that bolt throwers and dragon princes are garbage. They are both great units and very effective when used right. I think dropping 500 pts on 2 bolt throwers and a unit of 10 dragon princes provide you with a great outflanking unit that does lay down some hurt. Also lore of life makes them downright impossible to kill.

Citadel97501
21-05-2011, 09:36
I detest the fact that Dragon Princes, had their flaming immunity removed for a 2+ ward save vs. Flaming. They just cost to much for a sub-par unit if they had strength 4, or so they might be tempting but the combination of cavalry being penalized, them losing their flaming immunity, and keeping their low strength means their just not worth it when compared to White Lions, and Phoenix Guard.

The other things could have been fixed quite easily, all the war machines need is the 3rd wound, the silver helms sucked in 7th due to GW wanting to make everyone buy new core units.

But I really need to stop complaining, or GW will do something stupid like listen to non-he players about whats wrong with the army book. I swear if the guy that wrote beast-men gets near the new book, I am going to strangle him.

Methios
21-05-2011, 10:52
I swear if the guy that wrote beast-men gets near the new book, I am going to strangle him.

hehe, amen to that

Francis
21-05-2011, 13:05
I just wish my SW and Prince on Griffon would be worth the points. Reduce SWs to 14 and give them the option to take shields or 2HW at 1p each. Also the RBT would be great at 75p me thinks.

slingersam
21-05-2011, 13:33
The problem is that the bolt thrower was worth 100pts in 7th because it was reliable and you could calculate the odds relatively safely. Well with 8th edition pre-measuring, it made the other artillery 10x more reliable so then the bolt thrower became slightly useless

Olannon
21-05-2011, 13:55
RBT and DP most definitely have their uses. Just slightly overcosted is all!

Tarian
21-05-2011, 13:55
I think the biggest loss was target choice. Shoot a RBT at 5 knights, and you get good returns, shoot it a 50 men, not so good. Knights (and monsters) went away in 8th, and with them the RBT's main value.

Kloud13
21-05-2011, 15:18
When I said put the Dragons on the shelf, I meant the big monster Star/Moon/Sun Dragons. Dragon Princes still have a place in 8th edition.

Elven Bolt Throwers are great warmachines, but not for 100pts. they just die way too easily now. So just leave them on the shelf.

Silverhelms could have been saved, if GW had Errata 'd one thing. If they had made Barding optional, instead of the shield optional, Silverhelms could have still had a place in 7th, not too sure about 8th though.

Kloud13
21-05-2011, 15:23
I think the biggest loss was target choice. Shoot a RBT at 5 knights, and you get good returns, shoot it a 50 men, not so good. Knights (and monsters) went away in 8th, and with them the RBT's main value.

The biggest hit the BoltThrower took was the change to the "To Wound" chart. now that strength 3 arrows can wound it on a 6, coupled with the fact it only has 2 wounds. The BT is just far too fragile, and it should be a shock if it survives past 2nd turn.

Olannon
22-05-2011, 01:24
The biggest hit the BoltThrower took was the change to the "To Wound" chart. now that strength 3 arrows can wound it on a 6, coupled with the fact it only has 2 wounds. The BT is just far too fragile, and it should be a shock if it survives past 2nd turn.

I beg to differ. With so many other fragile things with way higher damage output, it's very rare indeed for opponents to target your RBT's.

In my 10 games in 8th I've only lost the RBT once.

Trains_Get_Robbed
22-05-2011, 02:50
I detest the fact that Dragon Princes, had their flaming immunity removed for a 2+ ward save vs. Flaming. They just cost to much for a sub-par unit if they had strength 4, or so they might be tempting but the combination of cavalry being penalized, them losing their flaming immunity, and keeping their low strength means their just not worth it when compared to White Lions, and Phoenix Guard.

The other things could have been fixed quite easily, all the war machines need is the 3rd wound, the silver helms sucked in 7th due to GW wanting to make everyone buy new core units.

But I really need to stop complaining, or GW will do something stupid like listen to non-he players about whats wrong with the army book. I swear if the guy that wrote beast-men gets near the new book, I am going to strangle him.

You can't be serious when you speak about taking out Dragon Princes?

They are a phenominal unit, that may be a bit overpriced in 8th, but not that anything in a 7th ed. a.b book isn't.

In competetive scenes, I take them over G.E any day of the week. They have 4 in. less movement for 2 extra wounds, 10 S5 WS5 attacks, a +2 A.S, and a ++2agaisnt flamming. While the eagle flies, is 3 time cheaper and has T4.

The difference is, the Dragon Princes may actually add to C.R with flank charges and wounds on the charge, or kill a warmachine crew as opposed to an Eagle.

YoungKing
22-05-2011, 18:12
For the people saying Silver Helms should stay on the shelf, they are actually being used quite successfully in peoples' cavalry lists as a bus for a Prince and Bsb, credit to Seredain over on uthuan.

I'm doing up my DP's atm, can't see how they are a bad or overpriced unit. I'll roll a noble with GW, Dawnstone, Enchanted Shield, Dragon Armour, and ToLoec, give the Drakemaster a Potion of Strength and you can pretty much run over anything on the charge. And that's for a smaller game.

Olannon
22-05-2011, 22:59
+1 for Silver Helms. I run a Silver Helm unit inspired by Seredain's approach myself. Although they are a bit overpriced, the unit works fairly well.

I can imagine your DP unit w/noble and potion of Strength is pretty powerful, too. Personally I run 10 DP w/PoS on Drakemaster - it's a scary unit to face!

Trains_Get_Robbed
22-05-2011, 23:07
H.E do infantry better than Cav., though I wouldn't argue that they can't do cav armies -one of the few armies that can sucessfully still do it- sp. infantry spam and magic heavy are just their strong suits, and thus focused on more by more players.

I agree with Cloud13, my Reavers have found a comfy place on the shelf next to my projects.

enyoss
23-05-2011, 07:17
infantry spam and magic heavy are just their strong suits, and thus focused on more by more players.

I agree with Cloud13, my Reavers have found a comfy place on the shelf next to my projects.

Luckily for me I've always gone infantry heavy, and used to lose quite a bit because of it in 6th, so the armies I like to pick are back in vogue :).

At the minute I'm trying to decide on how to spend ~100pts on something which isn't infantry, and can't really come up with any good ideas. Shadow Warriors seem pretty dire for their cost, I've always struggled to get Reavers to do much (they always get vaped on turn 2 by something... maybe that's what they're for though?), and the same goes for eagles (plus, from a background perspective I'm not a big fan of how eagles are used in the list).

In my last game I played I forgot to deploy the Reavers altogether and didn't miss them until I thought about it when driving home!

Pulstar
23-05-2011, 14:07
If they would FAQ it so you can take one unit of Silver Helms as core, everyone would take a unit of them.

It would also let you put a cheap 25 magic banner on them.

YoungKing
23-05-2011, 14:44
So we might all feel that High Elves do infantry better, but are Dragon Princes still a must more pretty much every list regardless?

Olannon
23-05-2011, 17:38
Did anyone try a good cavalry build for tournies though? It's not just about tooling up a prince and putting him in a unit of Dragon Princes, you really need to consider synergy and roles.

As for DP - they feature in most lists as flankers/WM hunters. Remember, they hit as hard as Swordmasters on the charge!

YoungKing
23-05-2011, 17:50
Did anyone try a good cavalry build for tournies though? It's not just about tooling up a prince and putting him in a unit of Dragon Princes, you really need to consider synergy and roles.

As for DP - they feature in most lists as flankers/WM hunters. Remember, they hit as hard as Swordmasters on the charge!

Oh hey Curu, been following your blog over on Ulthuan. Great stuff.

I'm kind of at a dilemma whether or not to go cavalry like you and Seredain or infantry. It's really too bad that one unit of Silver Helms couldn't be Core.

Still, you guys have used Helms well as the bus, so I think I'd eventually have to give it a try. I'm just finding out I suck at painting Dragon Princes but not infantry...:cries:

BTW do you think that Noble is a good set up to go with the DP's?

Olannon
23-05-2011, 22:10
Remember that Helms are a bus, not a damage dealing unit. I know this perfectly well and play accordingly. In my last game against Warriors of Chaos, I would've been a lot more confident if I had had a unit of Dragon Princes going into his Warriors on my T2. Because of the Archmage loss though, I had no choice but to try. For Seredain's bus, there's also a noble in there. This means his bus (the remaining 8 cavalry) put out a total of 9 attacks. DP by comparison would put out 12 attacks (you lose 2 due to characters).

Anyway - to the point at hand. I believe Nobles are good, but don't really add anything you need to DP's. For every character you put in a DP unit, you lose an attack. This is not the case with Helms. Besides, Nobles are S6 - something you can get from Drakemaster w/ Potion of Strength. If you have a big unit of DP's, nothing can stop them on the charge save for deathstars and really tough units.

If you're unsure of what to do, I suggest you try some proxies for a few games. In general though, you don't have to go characters to make cavalry work. Infantry is definitely a more tried and tested approach. What are your arguments for and against the different approaches?

YoungKing
23-05-2011, 23:26
Well why I was considering a noble with the dragon princes was because it's in a 1250 list and the unit would only have one rank, so no lost attacks. Especially in a lower point game I feel like it would be a unit that could take on most if not all unranked units.

Obviously in a higher point game if I wanted a bus like you guys I would go for Helms but like I said I would try to use this unit in conjunction with a chariot to bust tough units/threats.

Does that ake more sense for what I'm going for at that point level?

Olannon
24-05-2011, 12:39
Ah, ok. Well, at 1250 going with a Noble in DP should be pretty deadly. Then again, a Drakemaster with Potion of Strength is pretty deadly and a lot cheaper, too.

Arbiter7
24-05-2011, 19:29
Cheers guys,

I'm new to HE and haven't played many games in 8th yet.

Does anyone use WL or SM as bunker/anchor units? I intend to field a couple of units with 21 men each in a 7x3 formation, accompanied by 25ish spearmen and 25ish seaguard as infantry, with Dragon Princes and Chariot support. Sprinkle eagles and RBT's and that's about it for 2500 with an archmage. Would that be sensible? I keep seeing SM's in smaller units as flanking forces but I don't see how they see combat in small numbers.

Thanks in advance!

Francis
25-05-2011, 00:12
Use WL for anvil, imo SM should not be used in larger units than 14 since they die so easily to templates. Small units of SM will se combat because the foe will have to divide their fire and they might focus on bigger units that don't look that scary.

Olannon
25-05-2011, 00:22
In my opinion WL are overrated. SM die more easily, but have way higher damage output. Single-lining will help against templates, very much so. I've used a unit of 16 (2x8) in a number of games now and they're truly devastating.

Btw Francis, do you play in Trondheim?

BBWags
25-05-2011, 00:40
Forgive me for rehashing old questions . . . or just very simplistic questions, but I'm trying to figure out how to come up with particular formations. Up to this point, i've been going a standard 5-wide formation. But what are the merits of going between 5 and 10? Obviously 10 wide is for horde, and I suppose 5 wide and as deep as possible is for maintaining steadfast as long as possible. But what if you want to put out extra damage without committing to a horde?

When it comes to spearmen or lothern sea guard, is 7 wide advisable? My thought there is when you come against other units that are five wide and the same base size, you actually get a whole slew of models involved in the fight more than them.

I guess that's just one example and I'm not sure how sound the logic is. I guess my basic reason for asking this is because I make my own movement trays from metal and magnetize my models and I'm hoping to have as few basic movement trays as possible.

Any advice when it comes how to determine your frontage? I know this is a HE tactica, but what about other model sizes, like the size of an orc boy?

Francis
25-05-2011, 01:04
Btw Francis, do you play in Trondheim?

From time to time, I do have alot of other stuff to do at the moment but yeah. I am a member of the Wartrond forum too but haven't been on for a couple of months.

For BBWags, 7 for spears and LSG is good. Make it 7*4 and all your 28 models will be able to strike at all times.

enyoss
25-05-2011, 01:56
Forgive me for rehashing old questions . . . or just very simplistic questions, but I'm trying to figure out how to come up with particular formations. Up to this point, i've been going a standard 5-wide formation. But what are the merits of going between 5 and 10? Obviously 10 wide is for horde, and I suppose 5 wide and as deep as possible is for maintaining steadfast as long as possible. But what if you want to put out extra damage without committing to a horde?


I use a standard frontage of 6 for my spearmen and phoenix guard. You retain rank bonus for almost as long as when you're 5 across, but get at least some extra attacks against heavily ranked units which only deploy 5 across (as you point out). I find that going 7 across tends to eat into my rank bonus a bit much to justify the additional attacks.

With my swordmasters and white lions I go at 7/8 across. You also don't want that many guys hanging around in back ranks as a) swordmasters only get a single supporting attack rather than the two on their profile, and b) white lions are steadfast, so why bother trying to claw back combat resolution with ranks when you can get more S6 attacks and take break tests on the same roll (assuming you lose)?

I've not tried it yet, but I don't think I would ever bother hoarding 10 across with High Elves. I just can't see how a unit that unwieldy can reliably engage the entire front rank, making the extra rank of horde attacks not really worth it. This is just from my theory hammer calculations though :D.

Olannon
25-05-2011, 02:00
I always deploy my Spears 5 wide. 5 extra attacks usually won't mean much. I don't want them in combat without support and I use wider frontages with my other combat units. Spears fill 3 purposes: provide static resolution, break steadfast and fill up your core points. To this end, having them anything but 5 wide is pointless. Of course, if you go with Shadow magic it's a different story, but in general they're not meant to kill things.

winterking07
25-05-2011, 02:02
I have my Seaguard and Spears in 6-wide movement trays, but that's because I usually take them in multiples of 6 (24 spears and 18 LSG gets me an even 500 points, and I'll take an extra 6 spears if I have the points). My Swordmaster trays are 7 wide.

However, I try to base my formations on the situation--if I'm going to be shooting with the Seaguard for a turn or two, they'll switch into two ranks; if the enemy has nasty template artillery, I may deploy my units in a single rank. If for some reason I need my spears to try for steadfast, I'll reform them into 5-wide.

Tarian
25-05-2011, 03:58
I fielded a horde of Spears once, other than being deathly afraid of any template weapon, they did quite well, especially with Mindrazor on them.

Olannon
26-05-2011, 01:48
Mindrazored {insert anything, especially with ASF} will destroy just about any unit in the game - especially if in horde.

You don't build your lists around these encounters though, as that would be silly. 25 Spearelves in 5x5 will decimate most units enough with Okkam's on them. No need to go overkill on the list design just because the potential of 50 ASF S8 attacks is there.

Of course, there's always reforms in-game etc, but as a rule of thumb I see no reason to expand my frontage to provide more S3 attacks. S3 simply doesn't cut it. If you play Shadow and get Okkam's off, then 25 ASF attacks is enough anyway. For the rest, leave the damage dealing part to other units which do it better.

Tarian
26-05-2011, 02:00
Agreed, which is why it was only once, for a rather silly game.

BBWags
26-05-2011, 04:23
Wow! I just played my first game fielding 14 swordmasters and 10 phoenix guard against orcs and goblins. It was only a 1500 point game, so the bulk of the OnG "line" was a unit of 28 orc boyz with a Black Orc Big Boss in there and a unit of 20 Black Orcs with a Orb Big Boss BSB. My swordsmen charged the front of the Orc Boyz and ran them off the board when the Boyz fled. The 10 Phoneix Guard managed to only lose by 1 and made their leadership roll. During the orc and goblin turn, the Phoenix Guard won but the Black Orcs made THEIR leadership roll, but then the Sword Masters were able to flank the Black Orcs and join effort finished them off.

Is this what we should expect from our special choices? Or was that just insanely good rolling for me? With killing the Great Orc Shaman and the General and the BSB, I basically got a 2:1 point ratio in my favor.

Citadel97501
26-05-2011, 06:15
Yes, that is what you should expect. High Elf special infantry is incredibly good, although I personally prefer White Lions to Sword masters for 8th edition although YMMV.

BTW always field the Phoenix Guard in units with 3 ranks, you will almost alway win combat with them, and the extra rank is a lot of help.

CaptainFaramir
26-05-2011, 10:15
Facing off against Tomb Kings this weekend. Taking Lore of Life on a Lvl 2 with Silver Wand, and Lore of Shadow on Lvl 2 with Seerstaff. (Pls don't say take one archmage, long story short I'm not going to. So there.)

Anyway, re: shadow spell selection. I was pretty much dead set on The Withering (so I can shoot up his chariots before they Impact Hits my face off) and Pit of Shades (for I2/3vanishing goodness). But there seems to be a lot of love for Okkam's Mindrazor.

If you were me ("and I were you, and I were you...") which two spells from the Lore of Shadow would you take against Tomb Kings. Thanks.

Tarian
26-05-2011, 14:12
Hrm, Shadow has a ton of good spells, the only spells I *don't* like on it are Steed and Pendulum, but pick something that matches your army. Withering is good, and I always like Miasma.

ScytheSwathe
26-05-2011, 14:13
Withering and pit.

Withering and okkams is too much redundancy, they will both have much the same effect, and while okkams is better (especially where T8 constructs are concerned) it is far more expensive, not RiP, and pit will kill T8 constructs even more reliably.

I would have said withering and enfeebling, but then if you have 3 spells out of life, that should do you for defensive buffs.

EDIT, actually i would switch the items round. Pick throne of vines, and regrowth, the roll 3 dice for shadow. worst case scenario you would get steed, pendulum, and one of the 4 others., switching steed for miasma, and using the pendulum to hurt constructs and snipe heirophants. Best case scenario, you get withering, pit and either miasma or enfeebling foe.

BBWags
26-05-2011, 14:29
Yes, that is what you should expect. High Elf special infantry is incredibly good, although I personally prefer White Lions to Sword masters for 8th edition although YMMV.

BTW always field the Phoenix Guard in units with 3 ranks, you will almost alway win combat with them, and the extra rank is a lot of help.

Yeah, I have the Sword Masters from the starter box and I was proxying the Phoenix Guard and only had 10 due to point restrictions. If I play WYSIWYG at the moment, that means I huge part of my list is core and while you get alot of S3 attacks with spearmen and LSG, it just doesn't do that much to T4 Orcs, especially when those Orcs are armed with extra choppas . . . the return attacks just decimate the spearmen.

Unfortunately, Phoenix Guard and White Lion models are so expensive money-wise, I can't believe it . . . these price hikes are crazy. I haven't been playing that long but I'm already remembering the "good old days" when you could buy 10 models for 35 bucks.

*sigh*

And that is making me waver in my commitment to HE, unfortunately. I have twins on the way and I'm just not sure I can handle the monetary requirements of fleshing out my HE with numerous special choices. If it wasn't for the awesome Lion Chariot, I probably would have given it up already.

Olannon
26-05-2011, 16:55
ebay? I'm pretty sure you can find reasonably cheap models online ;)

enyoss
26-05-2011, 18:17
ebay? I'm pretty sure you can find reasonably cheap models online ;)

For High Elves, you'd be surprised. Aside from the Isle of Blood models (which I haven't looked at), the minimum bids and asking prices for lots of the High Elf stuff is absurd. I admit that I'm usually looking for some of the older stuff, but there are some models I really want on there but I just won't stump up the inflated prices. Either all the sellers have gone nuts at once, or there really has been an increase in demand in the past couple of years. Sucks if you'd trying to pick up a few extra 4th edition models here and there :(.

Francis
03-06-2011, 12:11
So I am thinking about using a fluffy list based on the crew of an eagle ship.

What I am thinking about so far is:

Lords

Prince:Armour of Fortune, Great Weapon, Bow of the Seafarer, Sea Dragon Cloak (Shield). 260p

Heroes

Noble:Shield, Longbow, Shadow armour, Sword of Might, Talisman of Loec. 147p

Mage: lvl 2, Reaver Bow, Silver Wand, Lore of Shadows. 185p

Core

24 Lothern Seaguard: Full command. 337p

24 Lothern Seaguard: Full command. 337p

14 Sailors (archers): Full Command, Light Armour, Flaming arrows (Banner of Eternal Flame). 203p

Special

8 Sea Rangers (Shadow Warriors): Shadow Walker. 140p

8 Sea Rangers (Shadow Warriors): Shadow Walker. 140p

Rare

1 Great Eagle. 50p

2x Repeater Bolt Throwers. 200p


Total: 1999p

Thats it. What do you guys think? Can I play this list and win against medium to hard lists? Tactical Advice? How do people feel about sea guard?

YoungKing
03-06-2011, 14:00
How do you plan on killing anything? The only threat is okkams and that's not even guaranteed. One good round of shooting of magic against you and your army is toast.

What was you'd basic strategy going to be?

Francis
03-06-2011, 16:36
How do you plan on killing anything?
What was you'd basic strategy going to be?

Thatís it isn't it? I don't really know. Kinda why I brought it here in the first place. Guess I would depend a lot on my bolt throwers and those aren't really dependable. Okkams ofc, but I might not get that. Basically I ask you guys since I love the LSG and HE navy background. Just a shame it is hard to play with. The only elite I can justify taking in this sort of fluff list is SM tbh and even that is a stretch.

BBWags
03-06-2011, 17:15
Hey, I just posted a list in the army list forum, I'd appreciate it if a few of you would be willing to comment on it.

I've finally and irretractably decided on HE as my main army, so I was hoping to get feedback so I know that I'm going in the right direction before I buy a ton of models. Thanks for the help!

I would especially appreciate a discussion on if my use of banners and wargear throughout the army is efficient or not. I'm not looking for WAAC-style spam, so no Book for me or anything, but I don't want to be doing stupid things, either.

Thanks, again!

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5556581#post5556581

Trains_Get_Robbed
04-06-2011, 07:49
Yeah. . . if your going to do a Bow list, do it right Francis.

You got to bring Alithnar, a SfBow Lord like you have and in addition a Noble with the Reaver on a Eagle or Chariot. I would run at least one hitty unit like W.L and try to sneak in 3 lvl 2 mages, one with Shadow and two with High. However, this list really comes more into its own at 3K, when you can affordbly take a Horde of Seaguard/Archers with the A.P banner, and BoEF.

Take 3-6 Bolt Throwers and 2 Mobile Bolts that hit on 2's and 3 S5's on 2's as well. This with the combined clean up of say 20 man White Lion unit and maybe a small unit of 5-6 naked Dragon Princes would be decent for a fluff game, but don't expect to win agianst Slann T.G lists or Skaven 2 towers double Pits/Seers lists, it may be closer than the result says, but will most likley be a lose unless you tactially out-manevour your opponent, and at that point why don't you just play W.E?

Pulstar
09-06-2011, 20:25
So I'm planning on playing in the "Lowhammer GT" next month in Media, PA. (http://www.showcasecomicsandgames.net/dakkacon.htm) It has lots of restrictions (to many to list here) but the wife and kids are out of town so I am in.

My list is going to be pretty straight forward. 2200 Charce list with AM, BSB, 30 Spear and 20 Archers in core. A unit of 23 White Lions, 2 Lion Chariots, 10 Silver Helms, 2 eagles, and a BT.

The question I have is what lore to use? Current plan is to take Life, with the lore ability healing the Lion Chariots (AM is ethereal and with the WL)

But with the rules (no Dwellers allowed) I looking for idea's for some other lore that would be fun/different but still effective.

Any ideas?

w3rm
09-06-2011, 21:03
So I'm planning on playing in the "Lowhammer GT" next month in Media, PA. (http://www.showcasecomicsandgames.net/dakkacon.htm) It has lots of restrictions (to many to list here) but the wife and kids are out of town so I am in.

My list is going to be pretty straight forward. 2200 Charce list with AM, BSB, 30 Spear and 20 Archers in core. A unit of 23 White Lions, 2 Lion Chariots, 10 Silver Helms, 2 eagles, and a BT.

The question I have is what lore to use? Current plan is to take Life, with the lore ability healing the Lion Chariots (AM is ethereal and with the WL)

But with the rules (no Dwellers allowed) I looking for idea's for some other lore that would be fun/different but still effective.

Any ideas?

Hope to see you there :D

Arbiter7
10-06-2011, 05:42
Hey guys,

I'm trying to save on points to add more bodies on the board, and up till now I was thinking of using the "unkillable" Archmage, a BSB and a lvl 2.

If I were to run a Book Archmage alongside a Banner of Sorcery, would it be sufficient in order to drop the lvl 2? I know he's there for some added variety, but I'd like to save a few points for special choices.

Also, how would one protect a book archmage? Where should he be placed?

Cheers

enyoss
10-06-2011, 20:21
It depends on what points limit you are playing to. At 2K you can get away with it, at 3K I think a lvl 2 would be a very good idea.

I've got no idea how you'd keep the Archmage alive. Since 8th edition came out I have really relied on Folariath's Robe to keep my lvl 4 safe in combat (I don't bother with the Talisman of Saphery though).

trotsky
10-06-2011, 22:16
Francis I think you can def argue for swordmasters as they would surely be the bodyguard for the mage!
And if you are going fluffy its a bit hard to give the mage the reaver bow isnt it?

Tarian
11-06-2011, 05:50
Phoenix Guard make a good mage bunker, and as for protecting the mage, kill everything in btb with the mage. (Works against small "mage hunter" units, not so much against big blocks.)

Olannon
11-06-2011, 21:17
I've found two units of Archers to be plenty for mage bunkering, if you deploy and play properly.

enyoss
12-06-2011, 09:07
Out of interest, does anyone here have any tips on how to get the most out of your regular chariots?

I used to run infantry heavy lists back in 6th/7th editions, so now my tastes are back in vogue so to speak, but I feel like giving my chariots a whirl again. The problem is that I could never get regular chariots to work well alongside infantry in previous editions (well, they worked fine in 5th, but 2D6+2 S7 impacts hits will do that!). As support chargers, I find they usually give away more combat resolution than they generate, although I do always seem to roll low for impact hits. As primary damage dealers I find they can sometimes ok well in groups of two, but the uncertainty from impact hits means I can never rely on them to do what I ask, which puts other well laid plans in jeopardy.

As for putting characters in these things... well, I just don't know where to start with that, and just about every attempt I have made goes pear shaped.

So, any hints, my friends? :)

I have some awesome chariot models from the various incarnations of the High Elves over the years, and I'd really like to use them!

p.s. On a related note, does anyone know if basing rules have loosened up in 8th? The rulebook says to use the base provided with the model, or one which is most suitable, so I'm wondering how in the clear I am using a 75*100 (width*depth) for my old Elven Attack Chariot. It didn't come with a base back in the day, is 4 (skinny) horses wide, and just won't fit on anything smaller, but in the past I have received dodgy looks when enquiring about it. I use it as a character mount, if that helps?

drear
12-06-2011, 09:39
i cant see a reason not to run it on that base. all your doing it giving people more attacks when you charge, and a larger area to hit with templates.

id complain if the base was smaller than the current chariot base..but its not =p

Olannon
12-06-2011, 12:26
if you're charging in, make sure you're corner-to-corner with an enemy model to minimize the return attacks. chariots can be used to discourage skirmishers and fast cavalry effectively. personally though, I see them as rather overpriced for what they do. that being said, a lot of people seem to make them work ok...

Oberon
13-06-2011, 08:50
So we all know that great eagles are awesome (I have 4 in rare), but what about using them as a mount? I have played a noble BSB with an eagle and I'm proud of what he's done (killing and holding up stuff/not dying while drawing fire from others), but what about princes and mages?
Prince, as a 3 wound character doesn't get as much out of the eagle as a noble does (+1T, flying move and attacks from an eagle,+1W) but what he gets is still great. With 2+ rerollable and 4++ and stubborn he is as durable as he can be, a bit more fighty than the noble and more expensive as well.
What about the archmage? With an eagle, he can't take folariath's robes so a ward save is a must, and without armour saves (6+ doesn't count here) he'll probably die fast, does this mean I can't take all my characters on eagles? :cries:

How about reaver bow or bow of the seafarer, do you think they are good for a flying character still? In 7ed you could fly 20" and still shoot, not anymore...

Anyway, the item combinations I'm using/thinking about:
Prince: lance, dragon armour, shield, dragonhelm, vambraces of defence, crown of command, eagle
Noble: bsb, lance, dragon armour, shield, helm of fortune, guardian phoenix, eagle
Archmage: LV4, lore of something, talisman of preservation, staff of solidity

Second is a proven concept (for me), first I tried with a griffon but an eagle might be better and is cheaper, arch mage is just an idea at the moment.

BBWags
13-06-2011, 15:10
@ Oberon - I've been pondering Prince on Eagle set ups as well. I have something I like, but let me know what you think.

I was thinking Prince - Great Eagle Mount, Dragon Armour, Golden Shield, Vambraces of Defense, Lance.

He's got a 3+ rerollable, 4+ ward, and all successful hits on him in close combat have to be re-rolled, so even most other Lords will only have a 25% chance of actually hitting him in the first place, backed by the armor and ward saves. So this guy would be pretty durable giving an 18" leadership bubble and he could certainly help hold the line even though he's not super killy.

The biggest problem, however, is no stubborn . . . which stinks, I really like the idea of re-rolling the successful hits against him.

What do you guys think?

enyoss
13-06-2011, 17:37
So this guy would be pretty durable giving an 18" leadership bubble and he could certainly help hold the line even though he's not super killy.


I don't think he gets the boost to his Inspiring Presence range, as a Great Eagle isn't a large target.

I do kind of wonder what role this guy will play though. I mean, when not on the charge he is pretty mediocre, and he'll be attracting a lot of attention with spells and missile fire. I think you can get a similar result (minus the flying rule) by mounting him on an elven steed, as you get a better save and have more flexibility in being able to join units.

That said, my Prince/Noble on Great Eagle is one of my favourite models, and I so want him to work :D. I think a Noble might work a bit better though. Despite the slight reduction in attacking power, you can probably get almost as good protection from your magic items which will be offset by the fact that he's not such a bullet magnet.

Oberon
13-06-2011, 18:19
@BBWags: nice idea with the golden shield and yes it makes him a bit more durable, but durability wasn't the issue in the first place. I've played that noble in over 20 games now and he has dies about 4 times so far. Last time was in the fourth round of str8 and/or KB-attacks from cauldron of blood-ed corsairs and xbowmen. In the one game I've used that prince, he won all combats before dying to KB (third round, 12th wound with no AS!)so I couldn't use the crown. On paper though IMO the crown is essential, as without thunderstomping mount he isn't going to fight his way through anything BIG, but sometimes he need to buy time for his troops.

@Enyoss: you can join units while riding an eagle, just not flying units. On horses vs eagles: my army doesn't include any horses at all, and eagle gives 2 points of movement and 2+1 S4 attacks in comparison to the horse, while I'm losing one point of armou save and some frontage. Neither mount gives me LOS, and the noble gets one wound to sweeten the deal a bit more... With an eagle, I can sit inside a spearmen unit if I want to (yes, it slows the unit down and won't protect against cannons, so?), but even without that I think it is clear why eagle costs about double that of a horse.

I was thinking about a great weapon for my BSB once, but the difference between 2+ and 3+ save is somewhat important sometimes. With armour of caledor I could take a GW and not lose armour save, but that would mean no rerolls for the noble, and no stubborn for prince (vambraces stay).

About the role:
The noble is great in taking&holding&beating archers, he can survive a few turns of stand&shooting, even more CC attacks, with his own attacks and the banner he should win and after a while they should break. Same works for a while against close combat units as well, as long as they don't have static res, you don't want to break with him as he dies instantly. He also brings the BSB where you need it, either supporting with attacks in the same combat or just holding it high nearby for rerolls. Noble isn't for baiting and fleeing, but stalking for the perfect charge or rushing to hold/beat something he can take. Chariots, light cavalry, archers, warmachines, he can take them.

Supporting charges/counter strikes with him also work nicely. For a single turn he can fight well and the eagle packs a punch too, add that to CR3 he brings for flanking, charging and BSB, and he can turn a loss to a win.

BBWags
13-06-2011, 19:29
Enyoss- thanks for the clarification on the inspiring presence. I might rethink the eagle in that case because widening the leadership bubble was one of my prime thoughts for this guy.

Oberon- where do you get adding the 1t from the eagle? I thought you use the riders toughness at all times? Or maybe I am misunderstanding you.

So, when you put the eagle in he unit of spears, you just sit there with them? Or creep forward at two inches a turn?

Oberon
13-06-2011, 19:42
Oops, now I feel silly. Only the highest wounds-stat apparently counts, not toughness as well. #&%"#%&@€$ ! This obviously makes the eagle a *bit* worse as a mount, good thing I always take such a strong defensive gear for him then...

The bit about putting the eagle with the spears is just a temporary solution, you fly into the unit after it has moved to position to take cover against regular shooting (not templates) or to add the hero to the combat that is to begin in the enemy turn (you are sure he is going to charge, so you put your BSB/regular fighting hero in to the unit to begin with). If the charge doesn't come, you can then just fly away from the unit like you were never in there, but you don't move *in* the unit.

Desert Rain
13-06-2011, 22:56
A prince on an eagle is quite expensive, about 300 points or so. While I haven't tried one myself I can't help to wonder if those points could not be spent elsewhere on something more useful.

BBWags
13-06-2011, 23:36
Well, if you Plan on using a prince anyway, the eagle isn't that big an expenditure... Of course, any given HE army can probably do just fine with a noble as general. But my gaming group is doing a fluffy campaign where we each choose one guy that is us and that will have various consequences throughout the campaign, so a prince for me!

enyoss
14-06-2011, 17:45
@Oberon: Thanks for pointing out that characters on flying monstrous beasts can still join units. That had totalled escaped me this edition!

Mmm, you lot have got me thinking about trying the following guy in my one of my next lists:

Noble riding Great Eagle, Helm of Fortune, Talisman of Protection, lance, heavy armour, shield.

He's not exactly cheap, coming in around 180, but would probably be quite effective at engaging war machines, missle units or taking out wizards. Hopefully he can survive a bit of missile fire to (or at least take one for the team in the process).

Oberon
14-06-2011, 18:44
Why the talisman? 6++ isn't the greatest of saves and the points could better be spent elsewhere. If you're not going for guardian phoenix (because of a walking BSB I'm guessing), then the enchanted items-section has lots of ~20p items that could fit in there. Of course, you could just drop the talisman and have even cheaper noble.

Don't worry, as long as we are not talking about warmachines (or they are flaming, skull catapults and dwarven machines for example), he can take quite a lot of missile fire.

Desert Rain
14-06-2011, 18:46
It might be me, but I prefer to have my combat characters supporting my units rather than fighting on their own. So I'm therefore disinclined towards taking one on a flying mount, unless it's a dragon. I see some potential but for me the cost is to great for a 2000 or so pts game. A noble might be preferable to a prince because one of the great things about the prince is his Ld10 which is not as useful as it can be when he is flying around behind enemy lines on an eagle.

Trains_Get_Robbed
15-06-2011, 00:28
The best it outs seem to be Tek's Gauntys and SoM. He is at least S5, has +2, ++5 (against S4 and higher) and has 3 wounds. They can be great in large games, for example, I had one in a siege about two weeks ago charge a unit of N.G archers in the flank, and although he wiffed his attacks, a flank, charge and one wound from the eagle won me the combat agaisnt 40 some odd N.G.

Grant it they were in a forest, however LD 6 is still LD 6 when testing for steadfast, and one will most likely fail -like he did, which had me run them down :D

You just have to pick the right targets.

enyoss
15-06-2011, 00:40
I did consider Temakador's Gauntlets, but decided that left him too susceptible to S3 bow fire, especially if it's coming from Dark Elves and/or is armour piercing.

@Desert Rain: on the whole I agree completely. I've been wanting to mix things up for a while though, so am starting to consider using some of my more exotic (and cool looking) models, which up until now have sat on the shelf. It's a break from the Prince/Archmage+BSB (Armour of Caledor, Guardian Phoenix) rut I seem to have fallen into. One of the best thing about High Elves is that very few options are truly terrible, so I want to make the most of it before the 8th edition book comes out and ruins it :D.

9Niels
22-06-2011, 13:25
Hey guys, I've juut started with the HE. I've bought the IoB set together with some Dragon princes (love the models!), some extra metal swordmasters (16 now) and one of my friends gave some Shadow Warriors.

I'm looking at the core choices and I'm not impressed. I've got some Seaguard from the IoB but I think a big block of Spearmen and some archers is the way to go? I'd like some advice about our core choices.

Citadel97501
22-06-2011, 14:29
Sea Guard are actually OK, although the change from spear-men to sea guard is a bit over priced. I would also suggest when fielding spear-men, or sea guard you always field them in blocks of 19 or 20, as everyone fights then. The 19 man unit works if you have a character for the unit, since you can then do the tower mission.

I would suggest that if you go the spear-men route, you pick up a squad of 10 archers, because frankly you get more bang for your buck with the 2 units for only 50 points more, since your getting solid shooting at good range, and a cheap effective combat troop.

The other option I personally see a lot of is that 2 blocks of 20 sea guard, with full command, as this fills up your required core slots and gives you to separate units that can hold a flank against non-elites, or flat rip up an army with magical support.

Trains_Get_Robbed
23-06-2011, 07:15
Hey, I'm in the market for alternative Lord bulids in 3K and 2.5K, I have tried many bulids, but of late the B.Steed, CoC, VoD, D.H, etc. . . has been irratating as I feel that I need a unit to go along with the Prince to make use of LoS, and then look to add a Muso and Banner, plus a Gleaming Pennant which just makes the D.P's overpriced for its cheap chips purpose, a poor man's DreadLord PoK setup. Other varations of the same purpose of bulid include Teks Gaunts, SoAH, CoC, etc . . .

Also, used to to take White Sword Lord, however, K.B at S6 is hard, and if you pop ToL and don't kill your challenger in that turn your dead, as well as if you wait to pop it second round of combat, your looking at a dead Prince as he already most likely has 2 wounds on him.

I was thinking about trying out P.Gstar lists with a Lvl 4, BotWD, mages etc. . . as well as a Prince somewhere in the P.G unit with CoC for stubborn. (any effective/cool bulids to fullfill a Stubborn, Survivable Prince?)

How can a charcter on a flying mount join a unit? Flying units cannot join other units I thought?

enyoss
23-06-2011, 07:30
Well, I find my White Sword Prince is quite durable, and is almost as deadly as the Talisman of Loec Prince:

Prince: heavy armour, White Sword, Other Trickster's Shard, Talisman of Preservation.

I've been getting a bit bored with this guy though, so I've also been looking at alternative builds. My objective has been to field a Prince on foot using a sword and board, rather than a great weapon, but I've found it really hard to build anything which is that effective. Items I've been trying to fit in (obviously not all of them!) are the Golden Shield, Crown of Command, Blade of Sea Gold, Helm of Fortune and a 4+ ward item. Still every time I think I have a great build, it goes 5pts over, and losing one item renders all the rest a bit pointless. It's quite irritating!

Citadel97501
23-06-2011, 07:53
I personally prefer the Armor of Caledor/Armor Silvered Steel, the Vambraces of defense, and a great weapon. Its a solid character that can take nearly any challenge, and at least come out even. 2+ armor save with re-roll and 4+ ward save.

I usually put the item that forces ward saves to be re-rolled on the champion for the unit, as this then causes a good chance to deal with enemy characters with high ward saves, which is the only thing that this character might have issues with.

Desert Rain
25-06-2011, 11:39
I used an alternative prince once, with the radiant gem of hoeth and lore of death. I can't remember the rest of his stuff but he worked quite well.

EnternalVoid
26-06-2011, 08:47
I have used a couple princes, depending on the campaign.

White Sword, Armor of Caledor, Guardian Phoenix, and Talisman of Loec. Standard White Sword Build for some.

Radiant Gem of Hoeth, GW, Armor of Caledor, Guardian Phoenix *or Talisman of Endurance if I want the phoenix on someone else*. I take death with him and snipe important characters or monsters generally. Nice to have with an Archmage if you don't take any other magic users.

Barded steed, heavy armor, dragonhelm, GW, Vamraces of defense, Crown of Command. Used this one once. It was not bad, I imagine though if I had more cav models it might see a bit more use. Wish we had a S4 cav unit when I used it though. In the end he ran off on his own to tie things up.

Want to try at some point; barded steed, dragon armor, Helm of Fortune, Sword of Might, Shield, Crown of Command, Guardian Phoenix. Slightly less damage output for a 1+ armor and slightly weaker ward.

Francis
29-06-2011, 17:01
@Trains. I think I might have a solution if you can resist taking a G.W. on your foot prince. Use Crown of Command, Vambraces of Defence and Enchanted Shield. As well as Dragon Armour and Hand Weapon. That will give you a 3+ rerollable AS and a 4+ ward save out of combat and a 3+ rerollable AS with a 3+ ward save in close combat. Mind he will only strike with 4 S4 attacks, but if you use okkams on his stuborn unit then that won't be a problem anymore.

EnternalVoid
29-06-2011, 18:47
How would he get a 3+ ward? Parry does not stack with existing ward if that is what you are thinking. The only things that stack with Ward Saves are Magic Resistance and the Mark of Tzeentch.

W.J.J.O.
29-06-2011, 20:58
Which is better? A 'balanced' High Elf army with infantry, cavalry and ranged units, or an 'all-infantry' (infantry and ranged units) army?

I prefer the latter and I've found out that it works rather well.

What do you think?

Tarian
30-06-2011, 03:41
"Balanced" doesn't work well for me usually. Overloading Cavalry or Magic/Infantry is what seems to do the trick for me at least.

Citadel97501
30-06-2011, 04:12
I was assuming that High elf cavalry was slightly weaker than our infantry specifically PG as they are my favorite unit, lets look at what you get in exchange. I was actually surprised by the results, the DP pull ahead just a tiny bit. . .

I only did the math for Dragon Princes as Silver Helms just flat suck.

I will compare their saves first followed by their offense which is probably what your taking them for at either strength 3, or strength 5, per each wound caused.

Defensively
With Strength 3
-Dragon Princes: 0.165 wounds taken
-Phoenix Guard: 0.33 wounds taken

With Strength 5
-Dragon Princes: 0.5 wounds taken
-Phoenix Guard: 0.5 wounds taken

Offensively
30 points vs. WS 4, toughness 3, wounds before enemy saves
-Dragon Princes: 1.72/1.13 (second set is after the first round)
-Phoenix Guard: 1.16

vs. Toughness 4
30 points vs. WS 4, toughness 4
-Dragon Princes: 1.32/0.745 (second set is after the first round)
-Phoenix Guard: 0.88

Tarian
30-06-2011, 04:24
I take them in a horde of 30, with a lord and 3 heros in there. Their defense only matters trying to get there, as they're absolutely horrific on the charge.

Citadel97501
30-06-2011, 05:15
I take them in a horde of 30, with a lord and 3 heros in there. Their defense only matters trying to get there, as they're absolutely horrific on the charge.

I don't mean to be rude but that is bad on so many levels, its an obvious threat and point sink telling your opponent to hit it with a unit killer (i.e Final Transmutation or Dwellers), you lose a massive number of attacks, and its rather wide allowing it to be hit by multiple nasty units, such as Khorne Blenders (21 MoK Chaos Warriors with Halberds) who would actually win the combat and together only cost 2/3rds as much as yours.

I would personally never go for more than 17+Full Command, and 2 characters, giving you 7 wide with 3 ranks and 5 guys left out at most. 7,7,5 for the formation. That would give you 17/7 attacks from DP's and horses and 6 more from 2 heroes. With mine your paying 790 counting the dirt cheap nobles with dragon armor, great weapons and horses.

Yours costs an easy 1535 points without any finagling, to get 22/12 attacks from the DP's, and 13 from the characters, about the only positive thing I can say is that your going to break an enemy unit unless its something fun like 50 Storm Vermin with Screaming Bell, or plague monks and their furnace thingy.

Tarian
30-06-2011, 05:23
And that is what the Banner of the World Dragon is for.

And... the MoK Warriors actually do *not* win combat against the Princes.

If the entire unit gets to attack (assuming they're fighting another horde, basically)

Against WS5 T4 3+/6++ Infantry: Lord gets: 3.5 hits and 2 Wounds Heroes get 8.8 hits and 6.1 wounds, DPs get 24.7 Hits and 16.5 Wounds, and horses get 2.5 Wounds, and armor blocks it down to .5 wounds, for a total of: 27.6 Wounds.

i.e. The WoC are all dead.

Most important thing, yes it's very expensive, but in 8th, 1 DP surviving to the end protects the points for the *entire* unit.

EDIT: I do know that WoC Halberds don't have 3+/6++, but it was a similar mathhammer that I had done before, so it was close and convenient enough. There would actually be more wounds, so a shrunken frontage would still take horrendous losses, then probably break.

Edit 2: I actually get 10 + 10 + 17 DP attacks for 37.

Citadel97501
30-06-2011, 05:33
All in all, I don't think I would even use the units reasonably ever take more than 12 with 2 characters (7 wide 2 deep) as that should be plenty for cavalry in 8th edition, that is about 590 points and throws down 17 DP attacks, 7 horse attacks, and 6 noble strength 6 attacks.

Just so you know this removes the ranks and kills enough to break a khorne blender unit, on average rolls, and wipes it out on the 2nd turn if something stupid happened.

Going back to the original question, I think a balanced army can work if you can find the points for it, which has been harder in our environment as we seem to prefer 1250-1500 point games.

Citadel97501
30-06-2011, 05:46
I was counting 2 khorne blender units as it is still 500+ points cheaper than your unit. 2 units of 21 guys.

The BotWD changes things immensely, and I have to agree that would work very well then, vs. magic and is a really good idea in this case. I personally have been abusing the Sword of Rhuin (Auto-Wounding=Good!) so I haven't been experimenting with the BotWD, I may have to pull them out. . .

Sorry yes, I did seem to cut out 10 attacks somehow, now I still think its over kill but I can definitely see it working well especially in a tournament environment. Just wondering but what banner do you give the Standard Bearer, I am assuming the Elyrion Banner or the Banner of Eternal Flame as that deals with Terrain or Regeneration?

Tarian
30-06-2011, 05:50
Yeah, they get the Banner of Ellyrion, and yes the list is a terrible point sink, but I shoved as many defensive items into it as I could. I actually have a batrep thread for it, the Tale of Prince Dar-Corith (shameless plug) that has the whole list for 2500 point games.

EnternalVoid
30-06-2011, 08:50
The funniest thing about his Horde 'O' Cav is that it is very hard to remove the BSB despite him only having a 2+ armor save and no ward save. Sniping spells don't work. And suicide charges tend to get killed before they can take him out *due to ASF great weapon prince and Nobles*. Not alot of things can survive that many S6 hits, and things that can, like a Greater Demon, is going to suffer if it just targets the BSB.

And much like he said, all he has to do is keep one cav model alive from the unit to deny all those points. Really would not mind trying this out myself some day... just don't have the cav models.

W.J.J.O.
30-06-2011, 11:57
"Balanced" doesn't work well for me usually. Overloading Cavalry or Magic/Infantry is what seems to do the trick for me at least.

I agree with you on that Magic/Infantry. I usually play an army with lots of elite infantry (Sword Masters, White Lions etc.), few mages (usually archmage and level 1 mage with silwer wand), BSB with Banner of Sorcery (= more power dice in magic phase) and some Lothern Sea Guard and Archers to fill the 25% for core choices. These are backed up by a battery of two or three Repeater Bolt Throwers.

I don't usually take any cavalry because they cost so many points and they usually don't pay off their price in the game. In one game my unit of 5 Dragon Princes got wiped out in 1st turn of the game by a single spell from Lore of Metal.

Tarian
30-06-2011, 15:36
How? All the damage spells in metal are flaming, which gives you a 2+ Ward against it.

enyoss
30-06-2011, 18:54
Which is better? A 'balanced' High Elf army with infantry, cavalry and ranged units, or an 'all-infantry' (infantry and ranged units) army?

I prefer the latter and I've found out that it works rather well.

What do you think?

I like to include one or two cavalry units, although I would hardly call it "balanced" with my infantry. We're talking a single unit of Silverhelms and a unit of Reavers, and all the rest foot slogging.

I find that having something with a long charge range which can take on most enemy flanking units (i.e. my Silverhelms or Dragon Princes, with the re-rolls), gives something else for my opponent to think about. If they can break through and then start taking out war machines, or things like the casket of souls, then all the better.

If points get tight though, the cavalry are usually the first to go.

W.J.J.O.
30-06-2011, 18:59
How? All the damage spells in metal are flaming, which gives you a 2+ Ward against it.
My opponent cast Searing Doom at the Dragon Princes at spells highest casting value and rolled 12 for number of hits. 10 from those hits wounded, and I only managed to save 4 of those wounds with that 2+ ward save. At this point I was like :wtf: had just happened?!
My opponent was really lucky that time.

BBWags
01-07-2011, 01:51
What do you guys think about this 3k list as a target for my model gathering focus?

Prince on Barded Elven Steed - Dragon Armour, Enchanted Shield, Vambraces of Defense, Crown of Command and Lance

Archmage - level 4, Folariath's Robes, Silver Wand

Noble - BSB, Great Weapon, AoC, GP

20x Lothern Sea Guard, Shields, FC, Banner of Eternal Flame (this is my watchtower mission unit)

48x Spearmen, FC (7x7 formation, BSB goes here)

14x Swordmasters, FC w/ Jewel of Light

20x Phoenix Guard, FC w/ Banner of Sorcery

14x White Lions, FC

5x Dragon Princes, Standard Bearer w/ Banner of Ellyrion

Lion Chariot of Chrace

Lion Chariot of Chrace

Great Eagle

Great Eagle

What do you think? Is it passable? i have 40 points left, what should I do with it? Should I shift things around at all? I'm not trying to go ultra competitive, I had a few goals to maintain:

1. I really want to have a unit of each Swordmasters, Phoenix Guard and White Lions in the list.

2. I'd really like to keep both Lion Chariots of Chrace - they're my favorite model/unit in the HE book.

Any insight would be much appreciated!

Trains_Get_Robbed
01-07-2011, 02:01
@Trains. I think I might have a solution if you can resist taking a G.W. on your foot prince. Use Crown of Command, Vambraces of Defence and Enchanted Shield. As well as Dragon Armour and Hand Weapon. That will give you a 3+ rerollable AS and a 4+ ward save out of combat and a 3+ rerollable AS with a 3+ ward save in close combat. Mind he will only strike with 4 S4 attacks, but if you use okkams on his stuborn unit then that won't be a problem anymore.

Thanks for the bulid, however, I don't think its actually viably possible to bulid a Prince the way I want in 100 or so points.:(

Francis
01-07-2011, 15:36
KK. The build didn't work out the way I thought anyway since you can't add the parry save to ward save as was pointed out to me. I was so sure you could but I guess it is another instance of me interpreting the rules as they should be, not the way they are :shifty: .

Now to add to the Cav. discussion. I won a 2000p match against a decent DE list the other day using a 10 strong Silver helm bus with Prince and Noble, as well as 6 DPs. The only magic I used was a lvl 2 with Annulian Crystal and high magic as well as Radiant gem on the Noble. High elf cav in 8th is definitely viable and you don't necessarily need all that magic. Just the right amount of magic defense.

cptcosmic
02-07-2011, 19:20
KK. The build didn't work out the way I thought anyway since you can't add the parry save to ward save as was pointed out to me. I was so sure you could but I guess it is another instance of me interpreting the rules as they should be, not the way they are :shifty: .

Now to add to the Cav. discussion. I won a 2000p match against a decent DE list the other day using a 10 strong Silver helm bus with Prince and Noble, as well as 6 DPs. The only magic I used was a lvl 2 with Annulian Crystal and high magic as well as Radiant gem on the Noble. High elf cav in 8th is definitely viable and you don't necessarily need all that magic. Just the right amount of magic defense.
SH bus with S7 Loec Prince is something I would not like to face. the prince might lack a ward but still has 1+ rerollable armor save and will kill most stuff in the first round of a challenge. it is also something many dont expect because HE players usually go magic heavy.

Desert Rain
10-07-2011, 23:42
Hi all :)
It has been a long while since I last played warhammer, 8 months or so. Now however I am slowly starting it up again, by for example visiting warseer more than once a month or so.

Anyway, due to this long pause I'm a bit out of my game so to speak and I'd like some ideas.

I used to play a pretty magic heavy list before, and while I still like to have a L.4 in my army (gotta use the everqueen model!) I felt that the army I used before lacked something, and that was a reasonable combat character.

So I'd just like some ideas on reasonably cheap CC-characters that can still hold their own against enemy characters.
Armour of Caledor and the guardian poenix are most likely staying on the BSB, but apart those everything is available. Lord or hero doesn't matter.

enyoss
11-07-2011, 00:13
Now however I am slowly starting it up again, by for example visiting warseer more than once a month or so.


Welcome back... I thought you had been conspicuously absent :p.



So I'd just like some ideas on reasonably cheap CC-characters that can still hold their own against enemy characters.

Armour of Caledor and the guardian poenix are most likely staying on the BSB, but apart those everything is available. Lord or hero doesn't matter.

If you want reasonably cheap I think you have to stick to a hero. A Prince is just too much of an investment to skimp on, so you'll want to max out.

Does it matter if the character is mounted? If not, I used to have much joy with a great weapon mounted hero in 6th edition, and now the +2S has returned for mounted models I can see him making a return. Helm of Fortune (for a 2+ re-rollable armour save) or Temakador's Gauntlet (2+ armour, followed by 5+ ward against S4+) would make him relatively survivable without needing anything else.

The only problem is where to put him? Silverhelms are a bit sub-optimal but would benefit from the combat boost, whereas Dragon Princes are a nice bunker but get just about the same extra punch from a Drakemaster with the Helm, for much lower cost (of course, you could have both in the unit :)). Even then, there is the whole issue of cavalry being less effective in 8th edition.

Hope that is of use.

w3rm
11-07-2011, 02:38
Theres always the prince with AoC, Vambraces of Defense and Great Weapon.

Citadel97501
11-07-2011, 03:34
Theres always the prince with AoC, Vambraces of Defense and Great Weapon.

Most powerful 82 points, I have seen although the Cavalry one is great to, and I do like to add on the Other Trickster Shard on it although that is foolish in a PG unit.

Desert Rain
11-07-2011, 17:37
I was mainly thinking of a noble, and the points range we are talking about is 2000 or so. Perhaps a bit more.

He can be mounted, but since the only cavalry will be 5 dragon princes he doesn't have much options on where to go. So therefore I prefer to have him on foot. I also have some on foot hero models painted so that's a bonus for the on foot guy.

As the AoC is on the BSB protection is a bit of a problem. The 2+ save item from the rulebook is so expensive that if I take it he'll not be having anything else.
Perhaps a shield then, and a magical helmet? Dragon armour+shield+helm of fortune gives a re-rollable 3+ and 25 pts for a magical weapon, which he will need to boost his strength. So a sword of might is perhaps the best option here. But then he isn't as killy as he could have been... Hmm, I think I'm starting to ramble a bit now but I'd really like to solve this problem :)

enyoss
11-07-2011, 17:52
This is exactly the problem I have with foot slogging nobles (or Princes, for that matter). Unless they have the Armour of Caledor, or an expensive 4+ ward, you end up spending a fortune on cobbling together shields and magic helms to protect them to the point where their offensive capability is compromised... which was the reason you wanted them in the first place, right?

Perhaps one of the cheap one-hit ward save items from the BRB would fit the bill (can't remember the names)? That way you can give the guy a great weapon, and maybe something like Temakador's Gauntlets, and hope that the 4+ armour and combined ward saves will be enough to see you through?

As I said, I often face a similar problem, but when trying to shoe-horn in a shield wielding on-foot Prince who is decent in both offence and defence. I have yet to find a satisfactory solution.

Pulstar
11-07-2011, 18:28
So I'm planning on playing in the "Lowhammer GT" next month in Media, PA. (http://www.showcasecomicsandgames.net/dakkacon.htm) It has lots of restrictions (to many to list here) but the wife and kids are out of town so I am in.

My list is going to be pretty straight forward. 2200 Charce list with AM, BSB, 30 Spear and 20 Archers in core. A unit of 23 White Lions, 2 Lion Chariots, 10 Silver Helms, 2 eagles, and a BT.

The question I have is what lore to use? Current plan is to take Life, with the lore ability healing the Lion Chariots (AM is ethereal and with the WL)

But with the rules (no Dwellers allowed) I looking for idea's for some other lore that would be fun/different but still effective.

Any ideas?

So I officially, went 1-2-2 this weekend at the Lowhammer GT. I went back and looked at my scores and my two ties should have been minor wins (forgot to add in the bonus General/BSB kills). Since I only played two games in 8th before this I say it was a good showing.

First round I drew with a WE army (and his free treeman). Highlights were when my Shield of Thorns eagle killed his BSB on his own eagle. The BSB, Spearmen and a Lion Chariot took down a treeman and T7 White Lions are nothing to fool around with.

Second Game I lost to a Throg army. I deployed so I got the match I wanted My White Lions/Spearmen and two Chariots vs his 8 trolls with Throg and BSB on jugger. And then he third eyed Thrones and IFíed Flesh to Stone. T8 Trolls beat T7 White LionsÖ..

Third Game I drew against Dwarfs. His Laser guided runed up Grudge Thrower killed 7 WL, and then all 30 spearmen in his next two shots. He also destroyed my Flesh to Stone. I grinded out a minor victory by re-growing 25 White Lions over the last 4 magic phases.

Fourth Game I beat a WoC army. My eagles so messed up his movement that no major combat happened until turn 5. My T7 White lions took on 30 Marauders with all his characters, 5 Knights to the rear and 18 CW to the flank and held. This set up my Spears into the CW flank and a Lion Chariot into the Knights rear, on top of turn 6. I won by 8 and my Spear ranks broke his steadfast and off he went.

Fifth game was against a different Dwarf army. Unlike the first Dwarf army he had three hoards (one Hammer, one Ranger) and much better magic defense. I miss deployed so my Silver helms got stuck in a woods and then bounced off his Rangers. One Lion Chariot and the Spearmen got stuck without magic support vs the hammers, and then I Miscast and blew up 14 White Lions (and 12 Long beards).

How my units did.

1) Level 4 Life mage was great. The only game he a problem in was vs the dwarfs, but that was more do to no BoS then anything else. Grade A.
2) The BSB was solid. He got creamed by the hoard of Hammers, but that was not his fault. He gets a B.
3) The Spearmen get a B. Short of running off the board in game two because I canít roll under 9 twice isnít there fault.
4) The Archers get a D. They didnít do much. They had the flaming banner which would have been much better on the WL. 30 shots into the treekin and 0 wounds.
5) White Lions A. A. A. When paired with a life mage, these stubborn bastards are awesome.
6) The Silver Helms get a C. They did great vs the WE and the first Dwarf. The other games either nothing or really bad. They are good soft target hunters, but need a hero for punch.
7) The bolt thrower also gets a C. It did a bit of damage here and there but nothing special.
8) The eagles were a B. I miss played them a few times, but the ability to redirect is huge.

farmergiles
11-07-2011, 19:50
With Ebay flooding with bits and bobs from the Island of Blood set, getting hold of Lothern Sea Guard and Ellryian Reavers is now quite easy. How many would you use in a unit and are Seaguard generally preferable to Spearmen and Archers?

Desert Rain
11-07-2011, 20:18
I haven't tried reavers in 8th so I can't say anything about them. There has been a huge debate whether you should take seaguards or archers and spears. I'm an advocate for archers+spears and I've written several posts in this thread explaining why so I won't do it again. Search for posts by me in this topic to find them if you are interested!

farmergiles
11-07-2011, 22:30
Would do if the search was working! :P

Ah I'm ok now!

Desert Rain
11-07-2011, 22:44
I've been doing some more thinking about the noble, and mostly I can't come up with anything.
I did however, find an out-of-the-box-thinking BSB on another forum. It looked like this:

Noble: great weapon, dragon armour, battle standard, radiant gem (heavens) and one of 5pts magic item from the brb.

The idea is to take the Iceshard Blizzard spell and use the character in a very supportive role. Protect yourself from shooting or make your units a bit better in combat, as well as the normal bsb bonuses. You'll probably want to deploy him away from your front, perhaps with some archers, so that he doesn't get killed to fare since he's really fragile.

It's a different, but perhaps it is useful.

Trains_Get_Robbed
11-07-2011, 23:37
I have been in a funk as well Drain, H.E have left me wanting more from warhammer of late, its the same list to be competetive, and when its fluff time wackyness or dice seem to ruin all my games. However, this being said, the one thing I also wanted to do was add in a combat charcter/support charcter.

Unlike Enyoss though, I believe that you need to take a Prince to make use of such abilities as, survivability and unit cohesion/support.

Latley I have been conjuring up a Prince for a unit of S.M or P.G as they are lower S than average -and could use S.C.R when not buffed (always possible). The last one I bulit toyed with -haven't been able to try it out :/ is:

Crown of Command, SoAH, Tek's Gauntlets, Shield, Devastating Charge Potion, Dragon Armor.

Pretty much, throw him in a unit of 20 S.M, and chuck them at the nearest unit with charcters. You can hack away at units with S6-7 and 6-7 attacks every turn with ASF, he will go through almost any type of unit Blood Knights, Trolls etc. . . and be able to hold his own with a +3 rerollable armor, and +5 Ward agaisnt units that actually can effect that A.S or go the other route and smack a charcter.

Again, not many hero level charcters will have a nice ward or armor, and for the ones that do, you can pop the Potion and add an extra attack on top of anything else you already have. This all being said that he and his unit dosen't have any LoL flesh to stone or miasma Shadow buffs for further security.

Lastly, all the while making mince meat with the S.M or providing S.C.R with P.G he is giving the unit stubborn on LD 10!

enyoss
11-07-2011, 23:46
Unlike Enyoss though, I believe that you need to take a Prince to make use of such abilities as, survivability and unit cohesion/support.


Unlike enyoss?... I think we agree entirely actually :p. I was just saying that if you wanted cheap, you're better off sticking with a noble, as losing a Prince because you want to save points on magic items is a real waste.

Me... I always go for the Prince, as I don't care about cost and can't get combat nobles to work very well! :D

Tarian
12-07-2011, 00:27
Actually, a rather fun combo is the Teleporting armor and a great weapon (maybe a cheap ward)

As he can only take one wound, barring multi wound or KB hits, just stick him near a life mage, and he can harrass things, sniping at enemy characters etc. Not necessarily the most point efficient character, but a lot of fun, and makes a good assassin.

cptcosmic
12-07-2011, 21:16
If I would run a prince I would put him into a silver helm bus. I would give him a Barded Steed, Dragon Armour, Shield, Giant Blade, Helm of Fortune, Plucker Pendant, Talisman of Loec and then watch how he melts even the toughest guys in a challenge :)

Kloud13
12-07-2011, 22:45
Actually, a rather fun combo is the Teleporting armor and a great weapon (maybe a cheap ward)

As he can only take one wound, barring multi wound or KB hits, just stick him near a life mage, and he can harrass things, sniping at enemy characters etc. Not necessarily the most point efficient character, but a lot of fun, and makes a good assassin.

Actually, this guy would be great for issuing challenges to your opponents shredder characters. And with a life mage keeping him going, he might just be the "Must take" Hero when using a "Life" mage.

Desert Rain
16-07-2011, 00:51
I've basically given up on trying to fit a useful noble apart from the BSB into my army. However, I will probably have to replace the RBT which didn't do much for me back before my break.

The list I used looked like this:


Archmage (325): Level 4, Staff of Solidity, Talisman of Preservation, Lore of Shadows

Noble (168): Battle Standard, Great Weapon, Armour of Caledor, Guardian Phoenix

10 Archers (110)

23 Spearmen (232): Full Command

14 Maiden (Sea) Guards (207): Full Command, Shields

14 Swordmasters (300): Full Command, Talisman of Loec, Banner of Sorcery

15 White Lions (270): Full Command, Ironcurse Icon, Banner of the Eternal Flame

5 Dragon Princes (150)

Tiranoc Chariot (85)

Repeater Bolt Thrower (100)

Great Eagle (50)

1997 Points

So if I drop the RBT I have 103 points to play with. Since ranged support is lacking I thought about a L.1 mage with lore of fire who just takes fireball and casts it once a turn to do some damage. Other ideas are to increase unit sizes, which I can do for everything but the DPs since I don't want to buy any more models. I thought about some reavers as well for extra support and maybe a little bit of fire support, but I don't remember their pts cost so I'm not sure how it fits.
Suggestions are welcome ;)

winterking07
16-07-2011, 04:44
Honestly, if you're thinking about a level 1 mage, I'd recommend High Magic instead of Fire. Two spells, for one thing--Drain Magic and something else. For another, that something else should usually be Shield of Saphery, which is cheap and lovely and, in my experience, more effective at helping you win than just another magic missile. A 5+ ward save on something like Swordmasters helps immensely with survivability. And it can force some interesting dispelling choices on your opponent--do they keep your elves vulnerable, or save their dice for your nasty shadow hexes?

vinny t
16-07-2011, 04:50
Has anyone had any experience with "marine themed" Elves, with lots of Seaguard and Repeater Bolt throwers?

enyoss
16-07-2011, 12:33
Honestly, if you're thinking about a level 1 mage, I'd recommend High Magic instead of Fire. Two spells, for one thing--Drain Magic and something else. For another, that something else should usually be Shield of Saphery, which is cheap and lovely and, in my experience, more effective at helping you win than just another magic missile. A 5+ ward save on something like Swordmasters helps immensely with survivability. And it can force some interesting dispelling choices on your opponent--do they keep your elves vulnerable, or save their dice for your nasty shadow hexes?

I second this... emphatically! Coupled with its cheap-as-chips casting value, Shield of Saphery is the perfect compliment to squishy elves.

Desert Rain
16-07-2011, 13:34
Good point, I totally forgot about High Magic altogether :rolleyes:

So I think that I'll try the L.1 with shield of saphery for a while and see how it works.

Francis
19-07-2011, 00:10
Yes Vinny T I have had some experience with them, but they are not very powerful and suffer from "I can't wound anything" syndrome. Basically you will have a hard time winning with these.

My advice would be to take shadow mages in order cast Okkam's Mindrazor and withering. I also use a Prince with Bow of The Seafarer to aid the RBTs.

It is possible to win with this army and it feels great to put it down on the table, just don't take it to a hardcore tournament environment. Then it will suffer.

Tarian
19-07-2011, 00:30
Unless you convince you opponent somehow to let you use the Sea Patrol special rules.