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enyoss
19-07-2011, 21:32
So, I recently got my hands on the old marauder dragon model (which I've been trying to get since I started my high elves 15 years ago!). I love it so much that I have decided to start using it, despite for my usual disdain for dragons which was born out of the Star Dragon fad a few years back.

Anyway, I already have a Prince on dragon, so I've decided that this one will be a mage of some description. I've been waiting a while to try out the Dragon Mage, but being restricted to Fire Magic is a bit of a turn off, so I'm looking at an Archmage on Moon Dragon instead.

I realize I'm going to be spending a lot of points on defence, which isn't ideal, but what can you do. I was toying with the following:

Archmage on Moon Dragon: Level 4 (SHADOW); Talisman of Endurance (5+ ward), Healing Potion (the High Elf one... recover all lost wounds at the start of any phase), and Silver Wand.

I thought that the oft-maligned Steed of Shadows would be useful here, as it gives me the possibility of a 40" move each turn to get into position (and get out of missile fire arcs), while the hex spells would also come in handy. Once combat is joined, I can then send him into a flank or rear and hope that the extra attacks, coupled with the fact my opponent doesn't get supporting attacks against me, would help swing the odd combat and keep him alive into the bargain.

So... has anyone had any luck with this kind of build? I'm actually really excited about using this guy, as I actually quite like the idea of an average, rather than super-pumped up dragon. I'm just hoping that the new book will introduce a wizard level option for Moon Dragons, a la the Horned Dragon wizard from the old Monsters Combat Cards :D.

Pyriel
24-07-2011, 15:27
heyas. i am an avid 40k gamer and just decided to start high elves in fantasy. i had decided to start fantasy very long ago but i postponed it cause until now i never realy found an army whose models i'd like enough.

i have a very generic idea on the type of army i'd want to run... so i'd like to ask some questions regarding some basic ideas and how some units function.

1. i have this insane idea about an army with dragon mages as heroes, backed up by dragon princes and phoenix guard or swordsmen. could it work?

2. core units: i want my core units to be able to shoot, idealy (though mostly to annoy if needed, as an option). are sea guard comparable to archers in this idea, or is the points difference too big?

elites:
dragon princes to silver helms. comparable?
as i see it, phoenix guard are the defensive elites, while white lions and swordsmasters are the offensive choices. am i right?

Citadel97501
25-07-2011, 00:20
I have a very generic idea on the type of army i'd want to run... so i'd like to ask some questions regarding some basic ideas and how some units function.

1. i have this insane idea about an army with dragon mages as heroes, backed up by dragon princes and phoenix guard or swordsmen. could it work?


Answer:
It can work in games for fun, and can be fun in a tourney environment however due to the ease of losing your dragon-mage expect to have a lot of issues versus Dwarves & Empire.



2. core units: i want my core units to be able to shoot, idealy (though mostly to annoy if needed, as an option). are sea guard comparable to archers in this idea, or is the points difference too big?


Answer:
Sea Guard are OK, however I have been getting better results out of a mixed compliment of Archers & Spear Men, however that may be more my fault as I rely on different lores than most HE players.



dragon princes to silver helms. comparable?
as i see it, phoenix guard are the defensive elites, while white lions and swordsmasters are the offensive choices. am i right?

Answer:
Silver Helms SUCK!!!
-Sorry about that but they do their extremely over priced when you compare them to DP's, on the White Lions vs. Swordmasters issue both are your offensive choices but I prefer White Lions by about a 3 to 1 margin, due to being stubborn, Swordmasters are just to flimsy and since your paying for attacks that you end up losing due to the 2nd rank, I just find White Lions better.

However if defending a building, or attacking a building use Sword Masters as ranks don't matter they get their full attacks, and the white lions defense against shooting is heavily beaten by the hard cover of the building, Sword masters win.

I should also point out that when in doubt Phoenix Guard are the best unit in our army, they will win combat a lot of the time by just being so ridiculously tough, they routinely beat Chaos Warriors in combat due to just being extremely hard to kill, and its fun to laugh at cannon balls.

sulla
25-07-2011, 06:45
Answer:
It can work in games for fun, and can be fun in a tourney environment however due to the ease of losing your dragon-mage expect to have a lot of issues versus Dwarves & Empire.

Don't forget WoC; double hellcannons and gateway can all make a mess of a dragon in a single hit/casting.

Skaven too can screw him over in a turn.

Alathir
25-07-2011, 15:41
Hey guys, I'm currently playing in a campaign and due to certain fortituous events, my Prince may find himself with access to 150 points of magic item allowance, any fun builds you guys can come up with that much freedom?

And Enyoss, that Archmage on Dragon looks like it could be fun! I might give it a try actually and report back. I've only done an Archmage on a Dragon once and I was fairly uninspired but that looks like it could be fun for a laugh at the least.

ashc
25-07-2011, 17:47
I'm coming back to the game after moving house, and having two boxes worth of IoB I was wondering... shall I stick or twist?

enyoss
25-07-2011, 23:29
And Enyoss, that Archmage on Dragon looks like it could be fun! I might give it a try actually and report back. I've only done an Archmage on a Dragon once and I was fairly uninspired but that looks like it could be fun for a laugh at the least.

Let me know how you get on :).

tibbyvc
26-07-2011, 06:00
:skull::skull::skull:All other tactics aside my personal favorite is a sneaky little trick that makes Spearmen one of the most effective Horde units in the games. 50 Spearmen in 5 ranks of 10. thanks to the "Martial Prowess" the Horde rules and the fact they carry spears every single model gets to attack when they get charged, plus they attack first because of "Speed of Asuryan" so what you end up with is a mob of 50 elves capable of killing anything that dares charge them (possibly before the charging unit gets to attack)

and if you really want everyone you play with to hate you, try casting "Okkam's Mind Razor" on the unit first; 50 S8 attacks can kill anything... ANYTHING.:skull::skull::skull:

Tarian
26-07-2011, 13:28
Only problem with the spear horde is the sheer cost. 50 Spears in Horde can buy quite a few toys that aren't a group of expensive T3 5+ models with a giant bullseye on them. And they can't kill a mortar flying at their head. :D

Jack of Blades
26-07-2011, 13:40
Yep, every broken wine bottle, rock, artillery shell and harsh insult in my army would be aimed at that unit - way more devastating than a bunch of swordsmasters or dragon princes as it can easily vapourize an opposing horde's steadfast.

drear
26-07-2011, 13:41
i tend to run my spearmen/seaguard as a horde, simply because in a unit of 20 ..most thigns will kill it.
and 50 spearmen/seaguard fill my core requirment nicley.

Jedi152
26-07-2011, 16:49
A quick Q. Is it worth trying for a horde army, or does the army's main strengths lie in flexibility and manuverability?

I've got a bundle of 50 sea guard and 40 swordmasters off eBay, should i be splitting the units?

**EDIT** Ah, read the thread. Looks like i'll try for 2 blocks of 20 sea guard and maybe 30 swordmasters.

Trains_Get_Robbed
26-07-2011, 17:46
I disagree with Citadel about P.G being the best unit in our army, they can't kill their way out of a paper bag. How are you you supposed to win combats when you can't kill the opponent? MoT HWS are just as good as P.G statistcally.

My personal favorite unit has ot be White Lions, they never let me down, even when/if I get a magic phase shut down by a freak occurance they are able to hold in combat long enough for a regrowth and a buff or two to hit them next turn.

150 point on a charcter would be awesome! Something like:

SoAH, Vambraces, AoC, Crown of Command 145 points of winning.

Makes any he joins gain stubborn wins back any lost combat by making up a huge amount of wounds in static combat res. Point and click at any other bunker would consider taking P.G with this guy.

The only time I Horde spearmen or LSG, is if I'm playing 3K or up, and 'bulid' a list around them. Meaning that I take Shadow on a BoH/Teclis Lvl 4, Banner of World Dragon perhaps, a unit of White Lions on one flank to protect againt flank charges due to unwieldness, and the stubborn crown somewhere in the unit.

Oberon
26-07-2011, 17:53
Just something I found out today:a duo of prince&noble bsb with great eagles, 2+ rerollables and 4+/5+ wards is extremely mobile and expensive&effective way of tying up an infantry unit. If it's undead, given enough time they will destroy it even without other units helping. Lord can take crown of command too, which always helps.

EDIT: IMO 30 smasters is too many. Sure they will keep their points for longer but almost half of them won't contribute to close combat. Ranks aren't that important for SM anyway. Spearmen seem to work nicely 7 wide, a unit of 40 (the max under ETC as well) has a nice amount of ranks and attacks.

Chiungalla
26-07-2011, 21:20
EDIT: IMO 30 smasters is too many. Sure they will keep their points for longer but almost half of them won't contribute to close combat. Ranks aren't that important for SM anyway.

Sure ranks are important, to prevent your opponent to be stubborn all the time.

snottlebocket
26-07-2011, 21:26
EDIT: IMO 30 smasters is too many. Sure they will keep their points for longer but almost half of them won't contribute to close combat. Ranks aren't that important for SM anyway. Spearmen seem to work nicely 7 wide, a unit of 40 (the max under ETC as well) has a nice amount of ranks and attacks.

Don't forget that they're very easy to kill outside of combat. A stiff breeze will cause them to drop like flies.

Small units of sword masters might sound efficient until they start getting wiped out without ever striking a blow by basic magic missiles, ranged weapons, templates or even simply chariots charging them and not leaving enough swordies left to strike back.

A big unit of 30 can rush towards combat, take it's lumps and have the survivors strike back.

Tarian
26-07-2011, 23:34
Personally, I field by Swordmasters in a block of 14 (7x2), as my opponent usually has other things to blast, like the Phoenix Guard with the BSB and Archmage hidden in them. If they're too small, they're tempting to wipe out, if they're too big, they're a giant target. At least that's my experience.

Trains_Get_Robbed
28-07-2011, 10:25
Swordmasters aren't easy to kill when they have ++4 Regen and or T7. ???? :{)

ihavetoomuchminis
28-07-2011, 10:44
Personally, I field by Swordmasters in a block of 14 (7x2), as my opponent usually has other things to blast, like the Phoenix Guard with the BSB and Archmage hidden in them. If they're too small, they're tempting to wipe out, if they're too big, they're a giant target. At least that's my experience.

I use them in a similar manner. 2x6 with champion (to accept challenges)

Pyriel
28-07-2011, 16:39
heyas. i seem to slowly get used to the game, having watched some games and seeing the differences to 40k.

i have decided on some stuff i'll include at 2000 points:
-Teclis as general
-BSB on foot
- 27 + 20 lothern sea guard as core.the 27-one will have the BSB noble.
-2 x 5 dragon princes.
-a unit of phoenix guard for Teclis to join.

Richmt11
28-07-2011, 17:38
Pyriel - the list looks ok, is that full 2k? as you have no reaction to war machines other than the DPs. I like to get a faster unit in there like great eagles which are also awesome redirectors.

Think about your general choice. Although an awesome char, Teclis isn't popular and banned in alot of places/tourneys so have a backup ready. Also be sure to have FC on Teclis PG unit so you can accept challenges with champ. Maybe even put your BSB in there for challenge accepts. I've seen it many times that large flyers get the charge straight into Teclis and you can only issues challenges or he will get squished!

Richmt11
28-07-2011, 17:40
Although on a side note you can decline a challenge which will send Teclis to back of unit. This benefits you but it seems challenge declines is universally frowned upon regardless of the situation...

Tarian
29-07-2011, 02:05
I think the challenger chooses who gets sent to the back of the unit, leaving Teclis vulnerable still.

Citadel97501
29-07-2011, 03:17
heyas. i seem to slowly get used to the game, having watched some games and seeing the differences to 40k.

i have decided on some stuff i'll include at 2000 points:
-Teclis as general
-BSB on foot
- 27 + 20 lothern sea guard as core.the 27-one will have the BSB noble.
-2 x 5 dragon princes.
-a unit of phoenix guard for Teclis to join.

Pretty good list,

However it has a couple minor issues,
-Teclis is extremely flimsy so if your using him, make sure you take a lore with defensive buffing, I would suggest usually taking the lore of life as it works extremely well with him. Since it can regenerate any wounds he lost due to his lack of defense and buff his toughness, and give him regeneration.

-Dump the BSB with LD 10 their rarely needed, Caradryan or Korhil will be much better for you, as either one can take a challenge in the place of teclis, and frankly Caradryan loves challenges, he also does a great job of splatting monsters. Korhil's benefit over Caradryan is not the Killing Blow its making the unit stubborn, which on PG is ridiculously fun.

-Dragon Princes, once again buffing is nearly required due to the issues with the unit, in fact another idea is to field them in a unit of 10 wide, with the Elyrion Banner this keeps them effective in all terrain, and cheap. The 10 wide is fun to thin down or win against a hord unit.

-Phoenix Guard, this unit should always have the Banner of Sorcery, and should usually take the Skein Silver, or the Gem of Courage, the Gem of Courage deals with the lack of a BSB, because frankly failing a LD 10 on 3 dice is really unlikely.

Gabacho Mk.II
29-07-2011, 07:32
I need to mention something really quick:

I have found that SwordMasters in units smaller than 20 tend to not do too well when they get into combat, if they DO make it in.... Most of this is due to wise opponents shooting/magicking them to death, which is what I would attempt to do as well if I was playing against them.

However, my units of 40 Spears and 40 Lothern SGuard tend to hold the line while my support units (Dragons, Dragon Princes, Ogres, etc) charge in and break the enemy.


Just a quick thought.

:)

snottlebocket
29-07-2011, 08:20
-Dragon Princes, once again buffing is nearly required due to the issues with the unit, in fact another idea is to field them in a unit of 10 wide, with the Elyrion Banner this keeps them effective in all terrain, and cheap. The 10 wide is fun to thin down or win against a hord unit.


10 wide is a horribly unwieldy cavalry formation though. You'd lose entire turns just trying to wheel the formation around when you can't just run in a straight line at stuff. Not to mention that your hideously expensive and still fragile cavalry faces serious risks of ending up in combat with multiple units.

Citadel97501
29-07-2011, 08:36
10 wide is a horribly unwieldy cavalry formation though. You'd lose entire turns just trying to wheel the formation around when you can't just run in a straight line at stuff. Not to mention that your hideously expensive and still fragile cavalry faces serious risks of ending up in combat with multiple units.

You have a good point, and to be honest I think it would be usually deployed in a 5 wide, 2 deep formation but if there is a good target, such as a horde unit, you might as well deploy it 10 wide. To be honest, its only going to be running about 345 points (10 DP's, Banner, Musician, Elyrion Banner), considerably smaller than most of our other units.

drear
29-07-2011, 08:57
there is never a reason to run cavalry 10 wide.

against a horde you get your 5 extra attacks from the horses...and thats it.
whilst your opponent gets 30+ attacks back at you.

running 5 wide will reduce the hits against you, and mean you only miss out on 5 str 3 attacks.

but saying that theres very few reasons to ever charge a horde with cavalry front on..

5 wide, measn you can hit its flank and receive 6-7 attacks in return for your 10 str 5 attacks.

Citadel97501
29-07-2011, 10:03
Incorrect Drear, in the case of Dragon princes you also lose 5 attacks from the knights, remember they have 2 attacks base + horse. However I do agree with you on what your saying, but mainly I was making an argument against 2 units of 5 dp's rather than a unit of 10.

drear
29-07-2011, 10:39
ah my mistake , i did not know they had 2 attacks base. that makes me consider picking some up to carry my wizard on bard steed around the place.

but 2 units of 5 , being so expensive wont last long. if your running small units, id go for silverhelms, or reavers with spears.
its a similar hitting power, but cheaper. afterall you arnt looking at them to break units on the charge, small units like that should be for baiting and fleeing or hunting smaller things.

thoughts on reavers? ive had some luck with them. played empire, and vanguarded right towards some vanguarded mounted pistoleers, and wiped them out with bow fire turn 1, saving my lines from being hit with black powerder early on.
they took out some cannon crew. and then died trying to charge a rocket battery in a tower.

is the only issue people have , is that they take up special points space?

Citadel97501
29-07-2011, 10:47
I just find Reavers extremely over priced, and I prefer the immortal PG's whenever possible, although I have been thinking about 30 white lions, with the +1 ld banner and a World Dragon BSB.

High Elves seem to be built for super infantry with 8th edition.

ihavetoomuchminis
29-07-2011, 12:25
I don't think reavers are that bad. They are one of the few FC that can charge in the flank and get some success due to S4 on charge and re-rolls. They won't disrupt (unless gigantic useless units) but they can make a bunch of casualties. They are really fast, and can shoot (if you want). Let me say it clear. They are not great, nor the best option, but they can be useful.

I have a question for the HE players: Wich 8 Magic Items would you like to mantain?

snottlebocket
29-07-2011, 12:59
I don't think reavers are that bad. They are one of the few FC that can charge in the flank and get some success due to S4 on charge and re-rolls. They won't disrupt (unless gigantic useless units) but they can make a bunch of casualties. They are really fast, and can shoot (if you want). Let me say it clear. They are not great, nor the best option, but they can be useful.

I have a question for the HE players: Wich 8 Magic Items would you like to mantain?

Causing casualties is only worthwhile when you aren't so light weight that you'll just give away as many casualties yourself.

Tarian
30-07-2011, 01:55
Hrm... if we're looking at only book items:

Banner of the World Dragon
Helm of Fortune
Talisman of Saphery
Forlaith's Robe
Armor of Caledor
Banner of Sorcery
Book of Hoeth
and...
Amulet of Light

Actually, probably not the Book, but I can't think of anything else I really want :P

Edit: Got it - Axe the book and keep the Seer Staff.

Temakador Swiftblade
30-07-2011, 07:51
Armour of Caledor will likely go, because they will bring back Prince Imrik. But it would only be fair for the HEs to break the '8 magic item' trend considering we are like the kings of making magic items.

[DaT]Seraf
30-07-2011, 08:03
Armour of Caledor will likely go, because they will bring back Prince Imrik. But it would only be fair for the HEs to break the '8 magic item' trend considering we are like the kings of making magic items.

no your not...dwarfs are
its stated in enough books that many artifacts used by men and elfs are dwarven origin

for excample dwarven armybook page 43

EnternalVoid
30-07-2011, 08:51
Seraf;5678000']no your not...dwarfs are
its stated in enough books that many artifacts used by men and elfs are dwarven origin

for excample dwarven armybook page 43

I am going to say one thing on this. Yes the army book says this, but that said I am not sure how true it is. I will agree that many artifacts used by humans have dwarf origins but considering the high elves notions with dwarves and the fact that with the rune system identifying dwarf made items is easy, I doubt high elves use many dwarf made magic items.

Alot of the army books favor the army in question, stuff like the beastmen saying that Gorthor's war killed millions of Men where the population of those two provinaces should not even account for that many.

Now don't get me wrong, I agree that dwarves have produced more magical items then likely any race as they refined their's to more a science. But I can't see high elves using items clearly made by dwarves with out balking at the sight each and every time.

snottlebocket
30-07-2011, 09:42
Now don't get me wrong, I agree that dwarves have produced more magical items then likely any race as they refined their's to more a science. But I can't see high elves using items clearly made by dwarves with out balking at the sight each and every time.

Why not? The war of the beard fluff always said that elves are lot more practical than dwarfs and don't really bother holding grudes. They're perfectly happy wielding any kind of magic item if it helps them, I don't see why they'd feel differently about using dwarven craftmanship.

Tarian
30-07-2011, 15:08
The HE AB says they have more magical gear than anyone else, hence their inherent discount.

Chiungalla
30-07-2011, 15:38
I am going to say one thing on this. Yes the army book says this, but that said I am not sure how true it is.

I tell you something: It's not true. It's fiction. It's the fiction of the authors paid by GW. So what they write is part of the fiction. So you can't state that it's untrue, because thats obvious. You can only say that you don't like it, that you feel like the logic is flawed or something like that.

But even then you should think twice before you make a claim like "elves wouldn't do this". Look at the humans of today. If you say humans wouldn't do that, there is always at least one person that is wicked or kind enough to do it anyway, who proves you wrong.

In the end it comes down to this: The high elves in the warhammer fiction are intelligent creatures, and like all intelligent creatures they are not all the same. So it's kind of common sense to assume that some use dwarfen magic items while others don't. Since magic items are not that common, even to elves, it's most likely that most will use them if the are powerful and available to them.


Seraf;5678000']no your not...dwarfs are
its stated in enough books that many artifacts used by men and elfs are dwarven origin

for excample dwarven armybook page 43

And in the end there is no logic pathway from "many artifacts used by men and elfs are of dwarven origin" to "dwarfes forge the most magic items". The only real information in this passage ist "dwarfes are to stupid to keep there magic items for themself".

Even if high elves would produce more magic items then the dwarfs, it would still be possible that men and elves use many magic items of dwarf origin.

Temakador Swiftblade
31-07-2011, 12:39
@ seraf. i do agree with you. i would have put in that dwarfs are but i couldnt bother, i was just making a point. Anyway, magic items dont really concern dwarfs as they are in their own category. (runic items)

hobbs3023
31-07-2011, 20:12
Just played WoC w/ a hellcannon who went OFF! Literally hitting everything... just wrecking anything that wasn't in combat during a 2k battle. Any ideas on how to minimize the HC's effects in future games? (I realize his rolls were fortunate, but cmon!) Thx!

snottlebocket
31-07-2011, 21:04
Just played WoC w/ a hellcannon who went OFF! Literally hitting everything... just wrecking anything that wasn't in combat during a 2k battle. Any ideas on how to minimize the HC's effects in future games? (I realize his rolls were fortunate, but cmon!) Thx!

Nuke it with magic I guess. It's not like you can just send in the birds to kill a demon canon.

Goldenwolf
31-07-2011, 22:26
Kill the crew with shooting/magic and watch it run wild.

EnternalVoid
01-08-2011, 03:54
Why not? The war of the beard fluff always said that elves are lot more practical than dwarfs and don't really bother holding grudes. They're perfectly happy wielding any kind of magic item if it helps them, I don't see why they'd feel differently about using dwarven craftmanship.

First I am going to ask, where in the fluff does it say elves don't hold grudges? Sure not likely the same way as dwarves but high elves are pretty huffy and arrogant, and seem fully capable of holding grudges. Take a look at the Cloak of Beards, it was not made during the war of Vengences but well afterwards, its description decribes it as being made as a token payment for the theft of the phoenix crown. Even goes as far to say that they made it a cloak that mocks and scorns the dwarfs with its existances. If that is not a sign of a deep rooted grudge or hard feelings I am not sure what is.

I can see several reasons that elves generally would not use dwarf made runic weapons, the primary being that alot of dwarf made weapons are not likely ideal for elves. Hammers, axes, sure elves might use them, but dwarves made them to suit their own frames, not an elf's height or body shape. And while dwarves have made other's weapons, the runefangs spring to mind, they are generally for individuals and a rarity.


I tell you something: It's not true. It's fiction. It's the fiction of the authors paid by GW. So what they write is part of the fiction. So you can't state that it's untrue, because thats obvious. You can only say that you don't like it, that you feel like the logic is flawed or something like that.

Actually I can say they contradict themselves in their very own fiction. It is like one book saying the character is left handed, then the next saying they are right. Which fiction is the one to follow? I mean they are both fiction, they were both made by those authors paid by GW to write that said fiction, but they can and have said entirely different things. So I can say I don't like it, I can say it is flawed, and I can say exactly what My post said, that they contradict themselves with each army book they put out.

Now that all said, you are right, I can't state what is true, as I don't write it. You are entirely right about that. But my actual post says, and I quote, "I am not sure how true it is", that statement is based on the whole idea, and opening the conversation for, that GW tends to change its own fluff from army book to army book and they contradict.

EnternalVoid
01-08-2011, 04:00
Just played WoC w/ a hellcannon who went OFF! Literally hitting everything... just wrecking anything that wasn't in combat during a 2k battle. Any ideas on how to minimize the HC's effects in future games? (I realize his rolls were fortunate, but cmon!) Thx!

Never fun when hellcannons roll well, for any army.

I have tried several approachs, the problem I have had is getting to the thing in time before it takes chunks out of my army. Killing it on turn 3 still means it might have hit 2-3 times.

So far the best ways to minimize losses to it from what I saw have been; to deploy elite units in longer thinner lines, if they are 3 ranks that is at least less being hit for that first turn or two. The second is to take shadow and get Pit of Shades and try to take it out with that. It has low Initiative and it can't pass off dying to the crew. But again that is risky as you have to A) get the spell in the first place, B) cast it, C) not be dispelled, and finally D) Not have it scatter off the hellcannon.

I have also tried dragon princes, as they can do damage on the charge and have decent armor against it in combat. Been kind of hit or miss with it being unbreakable. That said they have tied it up several times despite not killing it. Of course afterwards my opponent has tried to make it hard for me to reach it period, but by putting it behind troops at least that gives it a chance of hurting him.

Francis
02-08-2011, 10:19
Just played WoC w/ a hellcannon who went OFF! Literally hitting everything... just wrecking anything that wasn't in combat during a 2k battle. Any ideas on how to minimize the HC's effects in future games? (I realize his rolls were fortunate, but cmon!) Thx!

Lvl 1 mage with Seerstaff and Pit of Shades in a unit of shadow warriors. Run 10 up the flank and Ir Force Pit it back to hell. The 10 movement combined with the 24 range gives you an effective range of 34 which should be enough.

@ Chiungalla. I probably shouldn't start a philosophical discussion in a tactics forum, but the fact of the matter is that truth is as true in fiction as in the real world, which is to say not very. On a purely basic level we are unable to tell whether one thing is in fact true since it is all up to our on interpretation of the world. Even when dealing with experiments it is impossible to discern the truth, since circumstance may change in the future. This is why scientists only deal with theories. Absolute "truth" is for very religious people only (which in a way shows the absurdity of calling anything true considering the fact that most religions are at each others throats over this very issue).

Jim
02-08-2011, 10:39
Armour of The Stars on your BSB.

Discuss.

Jim

Pyriel
02-08-2011, 13:00
-armour of stars seems very random(random direction, random distance, random wether you will be able to join a unit soon enough). do not like random.
-armour of the stars effectively prevents your BSB from being in the fight or close to it, hence negating many bonuses which are the reason you buy him in the first place.
-expensive, for an item that offers very little staying power.
-50 bucks says once he's out of the fight(and mostly targetable), he's gonna be spelled or shot to oblivion anyway.
-theres even a chance that you land on your own unit, or right between enemy units. the distance/direction is THAT random.

if the wording was different, maybe if the BSB just shifted between differen selected units(and not "randomly out in the open"), or if teleporting him was an *option*, not a necessity, then definitely we'd be talking.

ashc
02-08-2011, 13:38
Armour of stars. Pointless.

Tarian
04-08-2011, 01:15
Armour of Stars + Lord with Great Weapon + Life Mage chilling nearby = Hilarity for all.

Citadel97501
04-08-2011, 01:26
Armour of Stars + Lord with Great Weapon + Life Mage chilling nearby = Hilarity for all.

You might be able to fit in the high elf item that makes him into a wizard, and have him self heal. . .

Von Wibble
04-08-2011, 12:19
Armour of stars. Priceless.

Corrected your post there.

It is not there to give to a BSB though. The idea I tend to go with is to put it on a hero with great weapon. When a nasty enemy character on monster charges in, you challenge. You get your attacks first, then the enemy is guarantedd to inflict no more than 1 wound on you. He then runs because you have won the combat by at least 3.

Being out in the open is not an issue, because often when you are using this, it is your turn next so you can just join a unit. As long as you consistently challenge with the character its a very good item.

On a prince, you could combine it with talisman of loec, to get yourself out of a combat if you are tied up (eg 100 skavenslaves).

For the Hellcannon, nothing fast, short of a dragon is going to stop it. A Noble on eagle, if the hellcannon has been hit by a strong shadow hex (eg -3T) - this is about your only chance.

Therefore you simply have to weather the storm. Set your units up wider in the early turns to minimise casualties, and then close up once his troops have got to you. Yes, it/they will get lucky sometimes, can't be helped I'm afraid. At least WoC have no other shooting.

Chiungalla
04-08-2011, 21:37
For the Hellcannon, nothing fast, short of a dragon is going to stop it. A Noble on eagle, if the hellcannon has been hit by a strong shadow hex (eg -3T) - this is about your only chance.

If it is hit by that hex, you can even take it out with archers and RBTs easily.

EnternalVoid
05-08-2011, 07:41
The problem with relying on the Withering is that it does -d3 to the toughness. So it can be anywhere from T5 to T3. If you drop it to T3 or T4, then yes Archers and RBT have a decent chance. The problem with archers is it does have a 4+ armor with 5 wounds. At T3 it should take about 30 hits to kill the thing, Long range shots mean about 60 shots. Of course RBT will make this alot easier as it will cut through the armor far better and have a better chance wounding.

That said, It means that shadow magic has more options, between Pit of Shades and much less likely Pendulum.

Kalivos
05-08-2011, 08:25
Hello, I hope I'm not interupting any ongoing discussions too badly but I have a couple of questions.

I'm brand new to Warhammer Fantasy and High Elves but I have decent experience in wargaming. I have the elves from two Island of Blood boxsets, a box of Archers, and two boxes of Spearmen. I understand that the Reavers are not everyones favorite, should I just proxy them as Dragon Princes until I buy them? Same goes for the Prince on a Gryphon, not an ideal choice?

I'm tempted to go nuts and put Korhil with a unit of PG, and Caradryan with a unit of WL, but I'm not really sure how big those units should be. A lot of people seem to be fielding an Archmage and another lesser Mage and I like that idea as well, I have 32 spearmen so I'm able to stick one in there. I'm also tempted to stick a Noble BSB (With a banner of sorcery for the mages, probably) on a barded steed with DPoC.

The problem there is that numbers quickly start to add up, point-wise and money-wise. Where do you think I should go next in terms what I should get in building my army?

Also, I think you guys are great, seem very helpful and respectful of eachother!

Oberon
05-08-2011, 09:37
So many questions...
1: No, reavers aren't that great or popular. If you want to use them, they'll do good as more expensive, less mobile great eagles with bigger foor print and more wounds&bows. Proxy dragon princes is of course good too, I might just drop them from the list.
2: no, with an archmage you don't have too many points in lords to get a monster mount+combat lord, in 2400 you can take a well equipped lord and another with minimum gear, and then the mount can't be better than a great eagle (GE lord+lv4 with 20pts of gear fits in 2400), but that combat lord goes for over 300 points that could be spent in white lions for example...
3: those units should aim at about 21, of course with more points you could go with a horde where white lions truly shine. Those two SCs are pretty expensive (Caradryan at least is) and as you will want a BSB as well that means 3 combat heroes->NO. Pick one if you have to. Caradryan is better, and more expensive, MR3 to white lions or stubborn to PG, that is the question.
4: BSB should go with protective gear instead of a magic banner, and if you do take a banner don't take one you can give to the unit itself. PG is a fine unit for BoSorcery (champ takes MR1 talisman) while white lions could take amulet of light&banner of eternal flames for the ultimate toolkit-combo. If you are taking a horse for your BSB, you will be saving some magic item points for some other gear, but you'll want a big unit of cavalry for him as you won't get look out sir from a small unit. Most people go with a BSB on foot with 2+ save and 5++ ward, I go with a eagle-mounted BSB with 2+ rerollable and 5++ ward, both work amazingly well. Some do take cavalry BSBs though, so do go for it if you want.
5:I'd buy 2 or 3 boxes of elite infantry of your choosing. You already have all the characters you want from the boxes you have, including bits to convert new ones (BSB for example).

By the way: great eagle is an awesome unit, BSB with an eagle is <----> this much better than on foot, and a combat lord with an eagle is grrrreat (at least in comparison to a griffon). IMO :)

Kalivos
05-08-2011, 09:44
Thank you very much for the detailed post! You gave me some insight on where to go next and what to keep an eye on.

I suppose it wouldnt be far fetched to use the Prince Althrans from the IoB boxes as just 'more elaborate eagles' instead of Griffins.

I think part of my problem was the excitement of starting a new game with a very cool army.

Oberon
05-08-2011, 10:27
Sure, removing the prince from his mount and patching it up with GS and calling the result a great eagle is a popular route. I bought a squadron of 5 old great eagles second hand so I didn't have to break my IoB griffon

EDIT: I'm thinking about buying a regiment of phoenix guard, not a horde of them but still. What are your opinions, experiences and tips for the unit? I was thinking about 16-21 PG with obsidian shard (or whatever the MR1 item was) and banner of sorcery. Just by looking at their profile, I'm not too convinced of their offensive output, and the cost does prohibit static CR helping them that much, but am I wrong?

Trains_Get_Robbed
05-08-2011, 20:21
No, your not wrong. I agree entirely ^^^

The only time I take P.G is if I have a Lvl 4 (Shadow) Archmage.

Jedi152
05-08-2011, 20:35
Is an archmage the lord of choice?

I love the IoB prince on griffin model, but a fighty lord isn't inspiring me.

Oberon
05-08-2011, 20:43
Pretty much every HE army has an LV4 archmage with either life or shadow as the lore, and either folariath's robes+talisman of saphery+arcane item of choice/book of hoeth as equipment. On foot, in a spearelf/elite infantry (=white lion/PG) regiment.

Fighty lords can work (o hi great eagle!) but every army needs a magical presence in 8ed, for casting offensive spells or hexes&augments, or at least to dispel enemy spells. Lv4 does that better than others, so yes.

EDIT @Trains_get_robbed: I use shadows-archmage pretty much all the time so that's ok, but how do you use your PG and what difference does the mage and his lore of choice make? Or is it just the obvious mindrazor for PG, hexes for the opponent-stuff, that works pretty much the same way for all units and not just PG? :)

enyoss
05-08-2011, 20:52
EDIT: I'm thinking about buying a regiment of phoenix guard, not a horde of them but still. What are your opinions, experiences and tips for the unit? I was thinking about 16-21 PG with obsidian shard (or whatever the MR1 item was) and banner of sorcery. Just by looking at their profile, I'm not too convinced of their offensive output, and the cost does prohibit static CR helping them that much, but am I wrong?

Phoenix Guard are actually a great unit now. To be honest I don't think you'll need any MR, as I find that my opponents almost always avoid casting spells on my PG and go for softer targets instead. Unit size is tricky. They rely on combat resolution to win combats so need some ranks, but don't need that many as they take casualties much slower than other units. Overall, I go for a unit size of 20 with characters all in.

Although I don't think they're useless without one, if you do include an Archmage then the PG are a perfect choice as they die slowly (so are a great place to put the expensive Banner of Sorcery), and get ward saves against any nasty miscasts results if you put the mage in there.

If you're not going to bother with an Archmage at all then replacing the Banner of Sorcery with the Razor Standard is way to make their mediocre combat effectiveness much, much, better.


Is an archmage the lord of choice?

I love the IoB prince on griffin model, but a fighty lord isn't inspiring me.

I love combat Princes, but an Archmage is probably the better choice. Adding the Banner of Sorcery then gives you a pretty formidable magic phase. The combat Prince I use is only really effective when lopping of tough enemy characters' heads with the White Sword... his contribution towards regular combat is less than stellar to be honest.

Pyriel
05-08-2011, 22:54
hmmm... if someone wants to use the griffon model, why not go for Eltharion the grim "counts as"?... he rides a griffon and is considered a 2nd level wizard. or in larger games, a cheap-ish griffon prince (say 365 points for lance + heavy armour + shield) with a lvl 3 archmage and the wand for the +1 spell(silver wand?) total 600 points.

it is not what i'd do, but if you want to use the griffon model thats what i'd suggest, to avoid losing magic support.

Mirbeau
05-08-2011, 23:19
Is an archmage the lord of choice?

I love the IoB prince on griffin model, but a fighty lord isn't inspiring me.

I've tried both, but for my part, in anything under 3000pts it seems the archmage wins out every time.

Tarian
06-08-2011, 01:09
Only time I take a Prince these days under 3k points is:
A) Dragon Prince Train with Banner of the World Dragon
or
B) Playing against someone with low magic, and bringing an Archmage would be just mean.

Trains_Get_Robbed
07-08-2011, 08:10
Imo^^^ so agree.

Oberon: besides the fact that Shadow has Withering and Mindrazor -which is pretty much all you need to make P.G actually KILL SOMETHING. By taking Life, you can't grant the P.G the ability to kill back what S.C.R they lost, yes they may have a ++4 save and are the perhaps the best anvil in the game they remain exactly that an anvil. Taking 20 (or even less) is asenine as when they start taking casualties they will begin to lose combat rexz obviously and with their inherent ability to fail to kill even a wet paper bag I often find my P.G losing combats and fleeing.

P.G don't fit my style of play unless I have Shadow -I have tried LoB spamming before to decent effect at S5 with the A.P Banner and T4 with ++4 they become a force to be reckoned with and can actually win their own combats without any other physical or magical support.

So in otherwords, yes the obvious. :P

Agusto
07-08-2011, 12:21
So, derailing a bit from the previous debate here, but I have a quick question about how to spend some points on Arcane Items...

It is about how to equip a secondary lvl 1 metal mage in a 2400p semi-competetive ETC High Elves list. I have 40 points to play with and can't decide if the chance to remove the enemy's big bad nuke spell with Sigil of Asuryan is better than a more solid and long lived defence with the Annulian Crystal? So, if anyone has some input or suggestions, feel free to help me out.

Agusto.

Pyriel
07-08-2011, 12:40
depends on your list. if teclis, get annulian crystal, cause you get many dispel dice and another boost will totaly make you have a huge ammount, possibly better than the opponent's casting dice.

if primary wizard is not teclis, sigil of asuryan.

winterking07
07-08-2011, 18:41
Annulian crystal has always performed well for me. I saw some calculations (here? Ulthuan.net?) which suggested that the crystal was quite likely to leave you with as many dispel dice as your opponent, if not more. And frankly, I like the guarantee of a power die leeched every turn more than I like the 4+ chance to destroy a single spell once per game.

enyoss
07-08-2011, 19:42
Annulian Crystal all the way :).

Agusto
07-08-2011, 19:48
Thanks for the input people. Will add it and see how it performs in the next battles...

Tarian
07-08-2011, 20:04
Just adding in, love the Crystal, never leave home without it.

Francis
07-08-2011, 20:43
Jupp, as I have said before, the Crystal and a lvl 2 mage with high magic will go a long way magic defense wise. I always use it.

Oberon
07-08-2011, 21:59
I'd take for your 2lv mage a lore that fills the gap left by your main wizard's lore. For example, if I was using a life archmage, I wouldn't have to worry about huge regiments and augments were good, but how would I actually kill anything small and hard, like a steam tank or a hydra? Lore of metal springs to mind, being an answer also to treemen and such. With lv2, you might roll that ap+magical attacks-spell, or +2 armour save, but the main thing is that one signature spell, leaving rest to the archmage.

Of course, the lore you need might be some other too, but IMO high magic is too unfocused (and the signature spell isn't that hot) to be able to support your main wizard. Say you had a shadows archmage and a lv2 mage using high magic, you would end up with 2 mages both with a generic lore.

Of course, if magic defence is the thing you are really only looking after, and your list already contains easy answers to stanks, hydras, dragons and treemen, then of course high magic is OK as well. At least all the spells are easy, so you could spend the whole magic phase with your spare mage. I'll use high magic next time, just for giggles.

Tarian
08-08-2011, 02:31
I stack Life and Shadow a lot, as they're very nasty together.

Mr. Shine
08-08-2011, 08:27
Hey guys, I'm putting together my first High Elf list (some of you may have seen it here (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=312884)) and I'm stuck on my core choices. I've ruled out using Sea Guard as they're too expensive points-wise, so I'm left with either 25x Spearmen (as in the list) or thinking of 20x Archers with full command and Gleaming Pennant, or possibly dropping the Hawkeye and taking another banner.

Obviously when I come to expanding the list I'll take both Spearmen and Archers in some combination, but at the moment while it's either/or I'm stuck on which to use!

ihavetoomuchminis
08-08-2011, 08:39
Yes, Annuli Crystal is one of the items that i hope to remain in the future HE book.

Pyriel
08-08-2011, 12:28
mr. shine,

i think you should buy stuff as per your future big list. 25 spearmen or 20 archers is usualy not a good percentage of the core of such a list. if you dont do that, you will end up buying boxes you might not use, which isnt very good financial-wise.

that said, you should plan on what kind of core you want to have, as a cohesive core. keep this in mind:
MINIMUM core, MAXIMUM(or near-maximum) special. this easily helps you see the very few possible core ideas:

a core of spearmen spam works great: two blocks of 30-40. many ranks, everybody can fight. surprisingly good defense-wise due to possible steadfast(many ranks) . and absolutely NO archers.(not enough room left)

a core of one unit of 40-50 seaguard works great: 5 ranks, horde formation.steadfast, EVERYBODY can fight, and the unit can provide ranged support too.

a core of archer-spam works OK: 2-3 units of 16-20 archers. absolutely no spearmen.

a core of archers with spearmen mix sucks: most good HE choices are melee, so taking a mix of ranged-only and melee-only in core will mean your foes will often be engaged in melee, the archers wnt be able to support.

a core of archers and sea guard is actualy quite good: basicaly you use a solid unit of 32 sea guard and the leftover points go to very few archers. the sea guard can provide ranged support with the archers, and when stuff hits melee, the sea guard can fight while the archers, now unable to support anything, dont realy matter: their points are too little to seriously hinder you.


decide which core works for you for a big point limit. until you reach that point limit, the core choices will be too little points to actualy matter anyway.

Trains_Get_Robbed
08-08-2011, 12:34
Annulian Crystal is the second best item next to Book of Hoeth. End story.

I would taut 20 archers F.C with BoEF instead, then you can shoot at hydras and HPAs and bulidings and get at least some worth out of it.

Pyriel
08-08-2011, 18:47
buying the island of blood very soon (as in, tommorow).
i know many stuff it has sucks, but its the cheapest way to get 10 swordmasters and a wizard on foot and 10 sea guard . i'd need 3 boxes otherwise, which would equal IoB's cost. better to get my swordsmen on plastic at least, and have some random stuff on collection ;)

i intend to use the griffon prince as Eltharion from time to time.
has anyone tried him?... i wonder what lore i should use.
fire and life have low target values , but beasts... interesting in this specific case. even the signature spell should grant both him and stormwing +1 str/toughness, right?...

Mr. Shine
08-08-2011, 23:46
mr. shine,

...snip.

decide which core works for you for a big point limit. until you reach that point limit, the core choices will be too little points to actualy matter anyway.

Thanks very much for your advice, it's very helpful! I'm starting to reevaluate my thinking now, paying more attention to the 2000pt aim as you suggest.

I actually managed to dig out a number of the old one-piece plastic Archers so I'll probably use them in smaller games, and either go with Spearmen for larger games, or hold onto my Island of Blood Sea Guard models and buy a few more to buff their numbers up for larger games alongside some Archers.

enyoss
12-08-2011, 19:44
So, has anyone had any success using Alith Anar as a regular Prince replacement in a block of troops?

I had never even thought of this until I looked at his rules again last night, but considering his cost (95pts more than a Prince if I recall correctly), he looks like a real bargain. Ok, he's not going to wow anybody in combat, but his 4+ ward save means he's pretty survivable, he gives Ld 10 to your battle line, he helps you unit survive should it flee, and he can expect to get at least two turns of shooting from his bow.

I know this wasn't how he was intended to be used originally, but is this option that much worse? I mean, I usually take a Prince with heavy armour and 4+ ward and he usually survives the game, so maybe there is hope for Alith in a regular block too?

Oberon
12-08-2011, 19:52
There often isn't anything worth shooting with the moonbow in the opposing forces where I play, at least from the position Alith Anar would be if he was leading spearmen or something. Cavalry should be shot at from flank, and there's really few chariots&cavalry/monsters around. There's really no point in shooting piercing bolts at ~4 ranks worth of infantry. When you consider the moonbow being pretty much useless, Alith's CC prowess being less than stellar, and his increased cost, that special rule that helps with fleeing isn't that hot anymore.

A regular prince with just GW and 4++ ward save costs how many points less? Right, about a chariot or something.

To answer to your question: no I haven't used him ever, I've always managed to convince myself that he's not that good. I saw a player use seafarer bow with eagle-lord (prince or archmage, can't remember) but now when you can't even shoot after flying 20", that isn't cool anymore either ;(

enyoss
12-08-2011, 20:02
There often isn't anything worth shooting with the moonbow in the opposing forces where I play, at least from the position Alith Anar would be if he was leading spearmen or something. Cavalry should be shot at from flank, and there's really few chariots&cavalry/monsters around.


This did occur to me as well. However, taking wounds off big monsters is actually something I struggle to do with my High Elves. Also...



A regular prince with just GW and 4++ ward save costs how many points less? Right, about a chariot or something.


... if I remember correctly, Alith Anar costs 245pts (I think!), so the difference in cost is only around 35pts. Actually, I can't believe that is right, so if someone can correct/confirm the points cost that would be great! :)

I too had always believed he was pretty useless. His main role is to be deployed as a scout, and I like my Princes in the thick of it with my troops, either for combat prowess or general Leadership bonus.

Oberon
12-08-2011, 20:17
Besides, if he's with his personal troops, shadow warriors, the moonbow will be wasted OR the shots from SW will be. Bolt throwers and longbows don't really aim at the same targets, especially without multishot-option like RBTs have.
Prince with 4++ is 195, while Alith Anar is 245 (army builder told me), so you end up paying 50pts for moonbow, light armour, halving enemy pursuit distance and -1to hit penalty against units shooting Alith's unit, while you also lose the opportunity to buy 55 points worth of magic items of your own choosing and mundane equipment on top of that. Sure, prince will end up costing about the same or more than Alith Anar, but as I said I'm not rating Alith's items that highly anyway.

Light cover always is nice, single shot-shooting isn't that hot due to targets available (in 7ed it would have been great most of the time). Halving the pursuit roll is nice, but IMO you really shouldn't bank on the possibility of your general's unit breaking from combat, rather than winning that combat. A bit like buying a cloak of dunes for your hierofant, while you could play well and never leave your priest exposed...

Plan to win, rather than not to lose too badly.

enyoss
12-08-2011, 20:44
Those are the points I used, but I added in light armour and a great weapon on the Prince. I'd actually forgotten about the -1 to hit bonus against shooting attacks, although it's probably only going to be noticeable if you place him in a unit of swordmasters.

I agree with you on aiming to win combats, rather than relying on the pursuit roll modifier. Still, I'm quite impressed that even ignoring this ability he gets about 135pts worth of magic items (Moonbow + Talisman of Preservation + Sacred Incense) for around 90pts.

Tarian
13-08-2011, 02:19
Something that's just irritating to play against is a unit with:

Alith Anar
Prince with Bow of the Seafarer and Sacred Incense
Shadow Warriors

That's 2 Bolt shots, -3 to hit with ranged (Skirmish, Alith Anar, and Incense) that will try to run away as much as possible. Definitely effective? Probably not. Bit weird to surprise opponents? Yep.

Another option is to drop the Sacred Incense and throw Shadow Armor in there, letting them all Scout.

Von Wibble
13-08-2011, 11:30
Definately not effective - the first 2d6 s4 magic missile will cripple the unit, the second will wipe it out.

Alith Anar would be a great character if he had a great weapon, or at least and extra hand weapon. And he would be a more interestnig character if he gave the army a few benefits, eg shadow warriors are core, all core choices in his army hate dark elves (granted, that one doesn't do much with asf as it is).

As it is, I find a Prince with bow of the seafarer, great weapon, and your choice of magic items to be a better pick.

winterking07
14-08-2011, 06:38
I feel like the old (5th edition?) Alith Anar gave any unit he joined the Scout and Skirmish special rules, or something like that. A Scouting horde of White Lions or unit of Swordmasters or Spears, appearing on an enemy's flank, could be exciting. (And if those crude, unsophisticated Chaos Marauders can flank perfectly when led by a special character, why can't fleet, nimble, graceful elves?)

Von Wibble
14-08-2011, 11:50
The 5th edition Alith also had his entire army with hatred rules, and could leave combat at any time he liked. A bit too good...

enyoss
14-08-2011, 12:00
... and this was when hatred gave stubborn on Leadership 10 :eek:. I loved his character back then, and thought it was a great addition (seeing as the 4th edition book had just three Special Characters, crammed onto a single page), but he does seem to be an awkward sod to fit into a working list. I guess he plays towards a great background angle (i.e. the leader of the Shadow Warriors), which doesn't really translate that well into the game proper (i.e. Shadow Warriors are crap, and High Elves just don't work well as skirmishers). I still think he could be value for money... although the suggestion above that he should have a great weapon is a very good one. He'd be awesome then!

Pendragon
14-08-2011, 17:24
As I'm about to start a HE army I've been toying around with a few ideas.

Dragon Princes seem to sweet to pass up, but I'm a bit concerned by their base strength of 3, and thought of a few ways for them to bring a little oomph even when they don't charge.
The champions magic allowance lets him pick up a sword of might and a luck stone, turning him to a poor man's hero. You can even throw in a potion of foolhardiness to offset the loss of his lance.

I'm also thinking of throwing in a mounted noble with dragon armor and a great weapon. Give him the Radiant Gem of Hoeth and he can reliably have wyssans wildform to boost the unit to just under chaos knight levels or just annoy people with drain magic.

Opinions?

Oberon
14-08-2011, 17:54
I'm pretty sure all HE champions can take only one item of up to 25, not any number of items totalling 25 or less?

Potion of str would be nice for the champ for example, giving you a few S10/7 attacks if you needed them. I got charged by TK chariots once and impacts killed all but the champ, luckily I had used my potion that turn so the champ managed to destroy one chariot and not break because of it :D :D

Wyssans is a bit too difficult spell for a LV1 wizard (3 dice spell for ~50% chance to cast...), I'd give beasts for LV2 wizard and keep the noble in fighting/survival role with boosted saves and the other trickster's shard for mutual support with the princes. If you want to keep the gem, I'd pick a lore with easier signature spell. Shadows has a great signature spell with 5+ basic casting value but the hexes you really want from the lore are difficult and hard to roll with LV1. Fire/light have good easy magic missiles, but knights have just a few turns when you could cast it (you aim to fight in CC with them, no?). Metal has great signature, but again a difficult one. Life would give you regeneration 5+ for not too steep a cost IIRC, maybe take Life then?

In short:
~6 dragon princes with full command, banner of flames or ellyrion, potion of str or amulet of light or luckstone
Noble: dragon armour, barded steed, GW, gem of hoeth (life), luckstone, BSB if you don't already have it
OR Noble:dragon armour, barded steed, shield, sword of might, helm of fortune, talisman of loec, BSB if you don't already have it
OR something else

I think the noble isn't necessary but he would give some reliable power for the princes and could carry some useful gear (amulet of light, the other shard etc) for them. This makes the unit a lot more expensive though, and therefore changes their role to the front lines instead of just flanking enemy light cav and such.

Pendragon
14-08-2011, 18:46
I'm pretty sure all HE champions can take only one item of up to 25, not any number of items totalling 25 or less?

It's certainly that way for Warriors of Chaos at least, but not for for High Elves.


Drakemaster may have magic items worth up to... 25pts


It makes me a happy panda.


Wyssans is a bit too difficult spell for a LV1 wizard (3 dice spell for ~50% chance to cast...), I'd give beasts for LV2 wizard and keep the noble in fighting/survival role with boosted saves and the other trickster's shard for mutual support with the princes. If you want to keep the gem, I'd pick a lore with easier signature spell. Shadows has a great signature spell with 5+ basic casting value but the hexes you really want from the lore are difficult and hard to roll with LV1. Fire/light have good easy magic missiles, but knights have just a few turns when you could cast it (you aim to fight in CC with them, no?). Metal has great signature, but again a difficult one. Life would give you regeneration 5+ for not too steep a cost IIRC, maybe take Life then?

Good points. With a lvl1 wizard, I really prefer to rely on the signature spells, as hoping to get another specific spell is just too dicey (no pun intended) for me. As dragon princes are cavalry though, beasts spells are a little to succeed with on them, and considering how much tougher they get, it's easily worth throwing 3-4 dice at. Or more.

Other signature spells are generally not that useful on someone who's probably going to be spending a lot of time in combat (that means magic missiles are right out). Life is nice, but almost as difficult. Shadow is fairly easy, but not as good. Of course, one should also take High Magic into account, where the signature spell is just as good as Life's, but much easier. ;)



In short:
~6 dragon princes with full command, banner of flames or ellyrion, potion of str or amulet of light or luckstone
Noble: dragon armour, barded steed, GW, gem of hoeth (life), luckstone, BSB if you don't already have it
OR Noble:dragon armour, barded steed, shield, sword of might, helm of fortune, talisman of loec, BSB if you don't already have it
OR something else

I think the noble isn't necessary but he would give some reliable power for the princes and could carry some useful gear (amulet of light, the other shard etc) for them. This makes the unit a lot more expensive though, and therefore changes their role to the front lines instead of just flanking enemy light cav and such.

Well, the front lines would be their intended place all along. If I was going for flanking, I'd take a larger unit of Silver Helms instead.

While 6 Dragon Princes would be preferred, GW's boxing policy makes a unit of 5 more likely. :(

Chiungalla
15-08-2011, 15:27
Opinions?

Just my 2 cent.

The Sword of Might will make the dragon prince champion a very expensive model worth 70 point for 3 strength 4 attacks, while he has a 2+ save with only 1 wound.

In other words: Don't do that. It's by far to expensive for what he does. Even the "naked" Champion with lance is not that great a deal compared to 2 dragon princes for just 10 points more. With the sword of might is is far to close in points with a hero.

Putting a hero into the unit is a good idea. Making him a wizard isn't.
When you choose your spells with the hero, you basically say your opponent he has no other (important) magic items, because the radiant gem will bring him close to the allowance. And when you tell your opponent about the great weapon he will know that your toughness 3 character has only a 3+ armor save in close combat.

Saying this, the character will be a sitting duck only worth it's large amount of points if he gets of a very situational spell at the right time. Else he will be screwed.

warplock
15-08-2011, 16:11
Just my 2 cent.

The Sword of Might will make the dragon prince champion a very expensive model worth 70 point for 3 strength 4 attacks, while he has a 2+ save with only 1 wound.


I really like Dawnstone on a DP champion in a unit with the Razor Standard. Stands a good chance of beating Chaos Knight champions in a challenge and is pretty resilient.

Chiungalla
15-08-2011, 16:33
I really like Dawnstone on a DP champion in a unit with the Razor Standard. Stands a good chance of beating Chaos Knight champions in a challenge and is pretty resilient.

Why not the helm of fortune? The same but better armor.

And he will only have a chance if the dragon princes charge, which is not half as sure in 8th as it was in 7th. And with the standard and all that is a very expensive unit.

warplock
15-08-2011, 17:19
Why not the helm of fortune? The same but better armor.

And he will only have a chance if the dragon princes charge, which is not half as sure in 8th as it was in 7th. And with the standard and all that is a very expensive unit.

You're right, helm of fortune is better, and that's in fact what I used last time I played as HE. I knew 2+ rerollable didn't sound quite as good as how I remembered him! Yes it's an expensive unit; I also forgot how expensive the razor banner is. I keep getting it mixed up in my head with the +1 Ld banner and thinking it's only 15 points.
I still like the unit, but it's certainly not optimal.

Oberon
15-08-2011, 17:20
Maybe the helm is worn by the noble/prince instead?



And now to derail the conversation: what do you think of dragon mages? Have you played them, what did you think of them, what items did you use and how did they perform?

Chiungalla
15-08-2011, 17:51
And now to derail the conversation: what do you think of dragon mages? Have you played them, what did you think of them, what items did you use and how did they perform?

I think they are awesome... from a fluff point of view.
In all other aspects they are very bad.

You actually pay for a lot of close combat power, which you will not use most of the time, because the mage will die very fast in close combat anyway.

You also need to hide it from ALL kinds of shooting (even shortbows) and damage magic, because even with maximum protection, the mage will die very fast.

And you can actually get a better mage, with a better lore, for fewer points when you choose an arch mage.

winterking07
15-08-2011, 18:05
Ditto.

I have occasionally enjoyed squeezing a Dragon Mage into a 1500 point game, alongside a griffon-riding Prince, just to surprise my opponents with the pair of big monsters. But in those cases, neither character is particularly survivable, with only 25 points of gear each. And of course, with 350-375 points of both hero and lord, there's no BSB, no other mages, etc. Sort of putting all my eggs in one extremely fragile, poorly-balanced, incomplete basket.

At larger point values, I suppose it could be an interesting surprise for an opponent, and in Storm of Magic it's great for sitting on a fulcrum. Otherwise, you're better off spending the points elsewhere, unfortunately.


The items/gear you should focus on, if you have the points, are 1) more spells to cast--level 2, the Silver Wand, etc; and 2) staying alive. With the extra free power die, you want to be hurling 3 Fire spells/turn if you can.

Pyriel
15-08-2011, 18:38
i have occasionaly used a dragon mage with success.
-i use him as a dragon platform; the mage is lvl 1 with Sigil of Assurian and absolutely no other upgrades.

the idea is that at 1st turn, my opponent will mostly shoot at the swordmasters, and the draon mage might get to live one turn.

he uses his Sigil of Assurian ASAP.
after that, Teclis uses his own scroll, for total of up to two erased spells.

after that, the dragon goes warmachine hunting or charging flanks. i FULLY expect the mage to die, and i care to the sum of zero(i have teclis when i use him, i dont need the dragon mage magic-wise).

if the dragon rolls well his Ld7 when the mage dies, then great. if not, well, still good chance of remaining functional.

th idea is simple: the DM will have one turn to use his sigil of assurian, and add that to teclis' similar ability. other than that he is "a dragon platform that doesnt stop me from using an archmage in a different slot". it is crucial to have asolutely minimal care for the dragon mage's survivability.


a sigil-of-assurian dragon mage with teclis totals 865 points, so in a 2,4k force you have 600 pts for Core and 935 pts for Special, usualy a combination of phoenix guard and lots, LOTS of swordmasters boosted by teclis' irresistible flesh to stone.

Avatar of the Eldar
16-08-2011, 03:28
Overall, I go for a unit size of 20 with characters all in.

Although I don't think they're useless without one, if you do include an Archmage then the PG are a perfect choice as they die slowly (so are a great place to put the expensive Banner of Sorcery), and get ward saves against any nasty miscasts results if you put the mage in there.

If you're not going to bother with an Archmage at all then replacing the Banner of Sorcery with the Razor Standard is way to make their mediocre combat effectiveness much, much, better.

Another long time HE player weighing in here to affirm the above. I run the Elite Infantry Sampler Platter - 20 SM, 20 WL, 18 PG - Archmage, Mage and BSB bounce between them. I've recently taken to putting the Banner of Sorcery on the WL and Razor Standard on the PG. I was putting Arcane Protection on SM's but found they weren't getting zapped much.


Annulian crystal has always performed well for me. I saw some calculations (here? Ulthuan.net?) which suggested that the crystal was quite likely to leave you with as many dispel dice as your opponent, if not more. And frankly, I like the guarantee of a power die leeched every turn more than I like the 4+ chance to destroy a single spell once per game.

Over the last many games, I've come to this conclusion as well.

Pendragon
16-08-2011, 10:39
Just my 2 cent.

The Sword of Might will make the dragon prince champion a very expensive model worth 70 point for 3 strength 4 attacks, while he has a 2+ save with only 1 wound.

In other words: Don't do that. It's by far to expensive for what he does. Even the "naked" Champion with lance is not that great a deal compared to 2 dragon princes for just 10 points more. With the sword of might is is far to close in points with a hero.

Putting a hero into the unit is a good idea. Making him a wizard isn't.
When you choose your spells with the hero, you basically say your opponent he has no other (important) magic items, because the radiant gem will bring him close to the allowance. And when you tell your opponent about the great weapon he will know that your toughness 3 character has only a 3+ armor save in close combat.

Saying this, the character will be a sitting duck only worth it's large amount of points if he gets of a very situational spell at the right time. Else he will be screwed.

Damned. Logic'd. ;)

So, what is the best (if any) use for the radiant gem? To me it seems like a fairly sound idea to turn a noble into supporting wizard, as mages are pretty steep in cost anyway and this way you get one who can put up a fight and wear some armour if needed.

Oberon
16-08-2011, 10:56
A prince, of course. Gem leaves enough points for protective/offensive gear as well. With a noble, the gem uses up all of your allowance=not that much for offense/defence left (ok you can get a lance and 2+ save...). Mage has 2 things over a gem-noble: another wizard level, and ability to actually use HElven arcane items. The last one IMO is huge, as there's about 8 items you'd want to use...

Pendragon
16-08-2011, 13:59
A prince, of course. Gem leaves enough points for protective/offensive gear as well. With a noble, the gem uses up all of your allowance=not that much for offense/defence left (ok you can get a lance and 2+ save...). Mage has 2 things over a gem-noble: another wizard level, and ability to actually use HElven arcane items. The last one IMO is huge, as there's about 8 items you'd want to use...

As a gem-prince is in fact, a high elf mage, he's eligible to take an arcane item right? If it's possible to fit in a decent combo of defensive items as well, this could be rather useful, no?

Chiungalla
16-08-2011, 15:26
So, what is the best (if any) use for the radiant gem?

If there is any use for it, I would say a BSB not meant for close combat, which hides with his great weapon somewhere in a unit with the +leadership banner, and casting the first spell out of the death lore.

Pyriel
16-08-2011, 15:31
radiant gem for Noble on barded elven steed in a unit of Dragon Princes of Caledor.

give him the Life lore: cast the signature spell for the 5+ regeneration: cool, now dragon princes have 5+ regen which can be cancelled with ...fire attacks, against which dragon princes have 2+ ward anyway.

suffice to say, if you get REALLY lucky and get Flesh to Stone you get immense bonus.

Pyriel
16-08-2011, 15:47
idea to use IoB's Ellyrian Reaver models:

-Noble on barded elven steed w/ two-handed spear(great weapon), heavy armour and longbow: 123 points.

for bonus points, one of them might have any magical bow (iirc, we have two magical bow options, 60 pts one for princes and 40 pts one) though i'd consider it too expensive. another might be a Prince, particularly if you have leftover Lords points.

using 1-3 of these might prove useful (hey, str 6 attacks never hurt any army to include them) and doesnt limit you from taking some magic-users. two of these are also well-complemented by 8 x silver helms: sure, the unit is expensive, but has 12 wounds with good armour saves, is very mobile, and packs many high-strength attacks. also, if it doesnt take casualties, it can disrupt(and if it does take casualties despite the 2+ save, its several less shots at your swordmasters) in no way do i mean this is great, but imho is a better option than just using ellyrian reavers in a list.

Oberon
16-08-2011, 17:10
As a gem-prince is in fact, a high elf mage, he's eligible to take an arcane item right? If it's possible to fit in a decent combo of defensive items as well, this could be rather useful, no?

Sure, the prince can use arcane items, noble could too if the gem didn't use up that much of his allowance. That's the point, *noble* can't use arcane items, while a mage can, and prince can too but I didn't mention that as I was comparing a noble and a mage.

Gem+jewel was pretty good in 7ed, one or two good players around here went with a dragon-mounted prince with gem+jewel+stuff and a couple of 2lv mages for a missile battery.

Lester
17-08-2011, 19:21
I've been very interested in using the Bow of the Seafarer. Anyone used it successfully?
I was thinking of trying a setup to have the Prince zipping around throwing Bolt Arrows but would it be better to have him sit in a unit? If he is better in a unit, which (I'm thinking Archers or Seaguard, the latter using both the Prince's Range and Melee skills)?

Tarian
17-08-2011, 21:16
When I use it, I usually stick him in a block of Seaguard to provide them support, or on an eagle to zip around.

Lester
17-08-2011, 21:45
When I use it, I usually stick him in a block of Seaguard to provide them support, or on an eagle to zip around.

What about the Reaver Bow vs. The Bow of the Seafarer?
In my opinion, while the Reaver's shots are always constant, the Seafearer has the first shot being better (S6) and the Second hit is equal (S5). Third onward it is weaker. But they all do D3 Wounds and ignores Armor Saves. For the extra points, seems worth it, albeit, only a Prince can take it. Nobles can only take the Reaver.
So is the investment in a Prince vs a cheaper Noble worth the Seafarer? I think that is the crux of it.

Pyriel
17-08-2011, 23:08
fun thought: i was thinking , what is the opposite of Eltharion the Grim ( a Prince that is also a LvL 2 wizard)?

i came up with this, just for teh lolz.
360 points
LvL 4 Shadow Archmage
-Fencer's Blades(WS 10 paired weapons:P i know, lolz)
-Annulian Crystal(dispeling power)
-Guardian Phoenix(5+ ward save is nice)

thoughts?... he costs as much as a Hoeth archmage, so he isnt that much competitive, but he has his merits and should be fun/surprising to play. i'll definitely try him some times for fun... he wont be easily killed; you aint like forced to charge forward, he IS a lvl 4 caster capable of supporting your troops. afterall, i'll only be point-sinking 35 points(the weapons; the other two items, ward save and dispeling power, i think are nice anyway, no?...)

Lester
17-08-2011, 23:28
fun thought: i was thinking , what is the opposite of Eltharion the Grim ( a Prince that is also a LvL 2 wizard)?

i came up with this, just for teh lolz.
360 points
LvL 4 Shadow Archmage
-Fencer's Blades(WS 10 paired weapons:P i know, lolz)
-Annulian Crystal(dispeling power)
-Guardian Phoenix(5+ ward save is nice)

thoughts?... he costs as much as a Hoeth archmage, so he isnt that much competitive, but he has his merits and should be fun/surprising to play. i'll definitely try him some times for fun... he wont be easily killed; you aint like forced to charge forward, he IS a lvl 4 caster capable of supporting your troops. afterall, i'll only be point-sinking 35 points(the weapons; the other two items, ward save and dispeling power, i think are nice anyway, no?...)
WS10 has the added benefit of making him hard to hit with Melee attacks from most models too. Imagine him in a challenge, very funny.

Pyriel
18-08-2011, 00:04
@Lester:
very hard to hit vs nearly ALL models: he is shadow-designed, it is easy to reduce foe's WS, so even if foe is WS 6 theres a pretty good chance that he will end up WS 4 or less, and possibly reduced strength. shadow also serves a different purpose, for teleporting away from difficult situations.

actualy i imagined the following:
-turn #3: mage casts The Withering on a unit, supposedly a powerful str 5 toughness 4 unit in order to help others take it down.
-opponent's turn: said unit survived and charges the mage's unit to take out the caster .challenge is issued by the unit's champion.

"i accept the challenge!"
(opponent) "HA! thought so..." *suddenly surprised* "...wait, what?!?"
*opponent looks , weirded out, as his reduced-toughness unit champion is nearly killed but survives due to some save, and the mage survives due to 3-wounds/ward*"natural... but next turn you're toast!"

turn #4: mage casts some spell and uses shadow's ability to switch locations with the great weapon-wielding BSB .

Pyriel
19-08-2011, 07:43
GREAT NEWS:
after months of battles with proxies/friendly armies, i finaly glued my first models!

i currently have:
one mage on horseback
two mages on foot (one of them is my favourite model, minorly converted to look more badass ;) )
one prince on griffon
26 sea guard w/command group
10 swordmasters w/command group
5 ellyrian reavers(will probably be used as Nobles on horseback or something as i fail to see how reavers could ever be used)

how's that seem as a start? :)

Pyriel
19-08-2011, 21:30
currenty converting the Ellyrian Reavers' Harbinger into a mounted BSB with great weapon (at least that will see SOME use ;) )

Tarian
20-08-2011, 04:46
Hrm, a good start, but a bit hero heavy. I'd focus on Core first, or maybe that very nice Lord/Hero box that GW put out. Otherwise, start playing games and seeing what you like to buy towards.

And Reavers can be used to... uh... draw fire, and give up lots of VP... or something like that.

Oberon
20-08-2011, 10:29
I thought about reavers a bit, and came up with one thing they can do that eagles can't! First turn, HE goes first and reavers had their vanguard move. Then they march 18" to stay in front of an enemy regiment that's standing pretty close to another regiment, being as much in their flank as possible while keeping a single model in their front so that they can't march past the reaver without clipping. This forces them to charge, reavers flee, he can't redirect as there's nothing else in range, wheels to face reavers and touches his own unit while reavers flee out of range. Result: the target regiment wheels a few inches before stopping due to his other own regiment, and reavers get away.

Eagles can do this from turn 2 onwards, as 20" can't take them to the enemy deployment zone fast enough. Pretty situational too, as this needs 2 enemy units standing close by, and only 2. Of course, if you set it up right the reavers will flee in an angle that makes it impossible for the enemy to wheel far enough (you flee center from center, and chargers can wheel only 90 degrees), but that won't happen all the time either.

This is all just in my head yet, I haven't tried it as I don't even own reavers but I will try with proxies at least. Sometime. Trying to force them to work even half as well as eagles, for double the price. Yeah...

ashc
20-08-2011, 11:10
I really want to hear good things about reavers as I have a pair of IoBs, but the prognosis is not good :(

Pyriel
20-08-2011, 11:28
...well, like i told you, i convert one to BSB noble and will use the rest as mounted nobles in some huge-pts battle or whatever.

question:
regarding IoB models, since we mostly play 2400-pts here...
for 600 pts of lords choices, you can have (IoB minis) a lvl 3 life mage w/silver wand and a prince with lance, heavy armour and griffon, and added shield. thats exactly 600 pts (25%).

would something like this work?... i intend to use my other mage on foot mini as a small LvL 2 mage so i have room to pack him annulian crystal or seerstaff(probably High magic w/ annulian crystal)

Oberon
20-08-2011, 11:36
If you just counted the griffon as fittingly large great eagle, you would get a better mount for the prince, and more points for gear to make both of the lords to work. If not, I'd just drop the griffon-prince. BUT if you really wish to have both of them, the setup you had is pretty much the only one due to points :/

About reaver models: if nothing else, you could use reavers as silver helms. Just clip the bows off, horsies have enough armour already as do the riders IMO. Prettier silver helms for the prince/noble than the real silver helms.

EDIT: oops, they are firing their bows and spears are on the back, the opposite of what I remembered :/ More conversion work then.

Pyriel
20-08-2011, 15:22
maybe i should drop the griffon. then i could take a truly good archmage-say, lvl 4 Shadow archmage with annulian crystal
and lvl 4 Life archmage with silver wand(570 pts total). this should give me some good magic and i wont care too much even if something very wierd happens and one of the mages dies( i will "only" have a LvL 4 high elf archmage left :P ) i should also have many more casting options, important since i intend to use banner of sorcery and will have some extra magic dice.

Lester
20-08-2011, 15:47
maybe i should drop the griffon. then i could take a truly good archmage-say, lvl 4 Shadow archmage with annulian crystal
and lvl 4 Life archmage with silver wand(570 pts total). this should give me some good magic and i wont care too much even if something very wierd happens and one of the mages dies( i will "only" have a LvL 4 high elf archmage left :P ) i should also have many more casting options, important since i intend to use banner of sorcery and will have some extra magic dice.
Two lvl 4 is overkill. Even in Storm of Magic. :)

Pyriel
20-08-2011, 15:50
yeah, i know :P but they wont be useless.
imagine rolling flesh to stone, dwellers below and pit of shades or mindrazor.... dude, thats gotta hurt. i mean, what is the other guy gonna dispel first?... and with knowing 4/6 and 5/6 spells, this is VERY likely to happen.

ashc
20-08-2011, 15:55
In big games go Teclis and the Book on a level 4. Let the good times roll...

Lester
20-08-2011, 15:57
In big games go Teclis and the Book on a level 4. Let the good times roll...
Many will cry over the wine and cheese platter this would serve.
*rimshot*

ashc
20-08-2011, 15:59
Many will cry over the wine and cheese platter this would serve.
*rimshot*

Too right they would, its a truly horrible thing to launch on an opponent.

Lester
20-08-2011, 16:12
Too right they would, its a truly horrible thing to launch on an opponent.
In all seriousness, in a 3500 game, I would try it once for laughs.

ScytheSwathe
20-08-2011, 17:19
So, what is the best (if any) use for the radiant gem?

at smaller ponts games, or a game where you just fancy having more troops on the board it can sit on your BSB. As your only mage.

Take high magic, invariably swap for the shield, and make use of drain magic.
45pts for +2 to dispel, the chance of getting a free 5++ every now and then, and adding 3 to all enemy casting values? Yes please. I tend to find that simply refusing challenges and being sensible means that my BSB doesnt really need all that much protection anyway, and you can still fit the charmed shield in his points allowance.


idea to use IoB's Ellyrian Reaver models:

5 ellyrian reavers(will probably be used as Nobles on horseback or something as i fail to see how reavers could ever be used)

http://i926.photobucket.com/albums/ad106/Scythern/S7300738.jpg
http://i926.photobucket.com/albums/ad106/Scythern/S7300739.jpg
http://i926.photobucket.com/albums/ad106/Scythern/S7300740.jpg

I found a use for them, didnt really want the swordmasters anyway, and felt the need for some extra sea guard, meanwhile i quite like my proxy 'dragon princes' i image sticking a swordmaster on the back of a horse would have a similar effect to a 'true' dragon prince anyway. Just needs some greenstuffing to hide the quiver underneath a robe, and a few dragon references here and there, done.

Pyriel
20-08-2011, 17:30
conversion wasnt nearly as hard as i thought:

step #1: take the ellyrian reaver with a sword.
step #2: stick him a different head from the lord sprues(numerous of these) or even some of the spearmen sprues.
step #3: armour done, he (and horse) is as well-armoured as a normal silver helm model currently is.
step #4: see the spear in the back of the horse? take the upper piece from the high elf regiment standard, all huge and impressive for a core unit(i use the IoB standard for them anyway). it is *designed* to fit in the spear.
step #5: cut a part of a swordgrip in a warriors sprue.glue it to the grip of the model's sword. the sword is now two-handed(great weapon). no need for shield to be found; he has great weapon and probably some shield-bearing silver helms as bodyguards (cheaper/better for a noble-support role than dragon princes, who are best used as an autonomous combat unit).

noble BSB on horseback with great weapon is now ready-definitely more usable than Reavers, and becase he is worth 140 pts, he is actualy a better money/points deal too ;)

Pyriel
20-08-2011, 18:07
list idea:


LORDS [300 points]
LvL 4 Shadow Mage-300 points
(annulian crystal)

HEROES [310 points]
LvL 2 Life Mage-145 points
(silver wand)

Noble-165 points
(barded elven steed, Battle standard, dragon armour,guardian phoenix, great weapon)


CORE [600 points]
26 x Lothern Sea Guard-413 points
(full command, shields, battle standard)

16 x Archers-217 points
(full command, light armour; yeah, i know its not top-notch, but its the best way to fill core with the "exact" 600 pts )

SPECIAL [1196 points]
14 x Swordmasters-255 points
(full command, banner of swiftness)

20 x Phoenix Guard-380 points
(full command, banner of sorcery)

20 x White Lions-335 points
(full command, gleaming pendant)

8 x Silver Helms-216 points
(full command, shields)

the idea is to use the phoenix guard and hopefuly-buffed white lions as anvils while silver helms, noble and swordmasters flank. the killiness can be boosted by some very minor shooting (42 models with bows) and , for the most part, Lore of Shadow.i like the dragon prince models more than silver helms, but realisticaly helms are better in the "noble bodyguard" role specificaly.

enemy shooting might be a problem, but hopefuly i'll be able to supress some with shooting/magic till i get stuck in.

ScytheSwathe
20-08-2011, 18:08
Pics or it didnt happen ;)

ashc
20-08-2011, 18:36
In all seriousness, in a 3500 game, I would try it once for laughs.

I think every High Elf player has it then to at least give it a go once.

Lester
21-08-2011, 19:03
Apart from Teclis, which Special Characters are good for their points?

ashc
21-08-2011, 19:41
I'm going to try out Eltharion at the very least.

Oberon
21-08-2011, 21:12
Caradryan. Flaming multiwound S5 weapon, good ward save+MR for the unit too, hurts or kills the enemy when he dies. If he was a BSB, he would be almost OP.

I'd like Korhil more if he had a ward save as well, being stubborn is a boon. Caradryan's MR3 IMO is a bigger bonus though, as you should focus on winning all combats but by design you really can't dispell everything. Korhil is 2 elite infantry cheaper though..

I've just ordered a group of used ellyrian reavers, some more SM just for kicks, and found a regiment of 11 silver helms under my bed, yay. Another new unit to learn to play with, besides reavers and the dragon mage.

Lester
21-08-2011, 21:47
Caradryan. Flaming multiwound S5 weapon, good ward save+MR for the unit too, hurts or kills the enemy when he dies. If he was a BSB, he would be almost OP.

I'd like Korhil more if he had a ward save as well, being stubborn is a boon. Caradryan's MR3 IMO is a bigger bonus though, as you should focus on winning all combats but by design you really can't dispell everything. Korhil is 2 elite infantry cheaper though..

I've just ordered a group of used ellyrian reavers, some more SM just for kicks, and found a regiment of 11 silver helms under my bed, yay. Another new unit to learn to play with, besides reavers and the dragon mage.
Now here are two interesting questions disregarding fluff reasoning:
Would you run Caradryan in a non-Phoenix Guard unit?
Would you prefer to run Caradryan in a non-Phoenix Guard unit rather than in one?

Oberon
21-08-2011, 22:03
From a fluffy point of view, in PG only.
From power/effectivity pov, white lions. Stubborn MR3 white lions, mmm.... Great challenger for the deathstar, he will kill most opponents and killing him isn't that east and even him dying helps you :D

If I had the model and a unit of PG, I still would move him to another unit. PG don't really benefit from a PG+1 character in there, besides the 2+ ward VS magic and a great duellist.

Pyriel
22-08-2011, 00:26
tried out a griffon prince list for fun today. i dared play against a slann-included lizardmen list with only two lvl 2s of my own :o

however, it seems banner of sorcery , annulian crystal and silver wand helped a lot. the magic phase wasnt conceded-it was OK, we were about equal until i made stupid moves that moved my mages close to the slann, where his trick that takes out my 6s hurt a lot. i also forgot drain magic till the last 1-2 turns, where we realised it would have made a difference.

the griffon prince didnt do much, he died due to shooty wounds on the griffon , who then got picked and killed in cc and, combined with prince's 3 misses on 3+ with reroll(!) and unlucky Ld morale check on 11(!!) and then he got caught and killed(!!!). granted thats not exactly normal statistical chances since he was fighting mere Core, and not some horde either.

the griffon prince's acting as fire magnet allowed 14 swordmasters with banner of swiftness to wreck havoc, wiping out some dozens saurus and 3 stegadons.

my dragon princes charged the slann's temple guard who had banner of eternal flame, but i couldnt roll my armour saves nor my 2+ ward saves and they all died(!!!!).

my sea guard killed some salamanders and skinks, but an excellent job was made by the phoenix guard unit that made a slow but steady advance on my right flank. it stayed to the very end when only some 10-15 temple guard, slann, and some phoenix guard and the high mage were left standing(lol@both armies nearly wiped out). they would have advanced sooner and possibly engaged the temple guard before they made a mess of my core units and life mage. alas, the last unit they fought on their starting flank rolled two double 1s on two consecutive turns when it had the last 1-2 ranks standing and lost combat by 5-7 each turn.

i think the game went well:
it was almost a draw despite me failing important rolls(like the prince's 3+ with rerolls of attacks and his rolling 11 morale, or the dragon princes failing LOTS of saves and the consecutive 2+ ward saves). i also did two crucial mistakes when deciding deployment of my life mage not far enough from the slann, and when i didnt flank properly with my more mobile units-patience, Pyriel, patience.

after seeing that, i no longer think the idea of smaller magi with good arcane items is bad. its just we need some specific gear (banner of sorcery for the dice to substitute casting lvls, and dispel-tech items) . i dont think its optimal, but definitely isnt suicide. and the extra fighty points leftover can help. (edit: i now realised i made ONE channeling attempt in the whole game. in all dispel and cast channels, maybe more than 15-20 of them, a single 6. *sigh* now i know why FLGS ppl kept looking at us and loling at my luck)

EnternalVoid
22-08-2011, 23:36
Now here are two interesting questions disregarding fluff reasoning:
Would you run Caradryan in a non-Phoenix Guard unit?
Would you prefer to run Caradryan in a non-Phoenix Guard unit rather than in one?

Disregarding fluff? Carandryan is pretty good in non-PG units. I scaried are resident Dark Elf Player just by letting him look at his stats and pointing out how annoying this guy was for him period. 3 ASF Flaming S5 d3 wound attacks will hurt a hydra and go a long way to helping a unit kill one. In addition at the time he was running around with the nearly unkillable dreadlord, so Carandryan's special ability to take his killer with him scaried him as it got around alot of the dreadlord's defenses. Also the fact he could move around to respond to threats and was not stuck to a single unit worried him. Never had to bring him out but always having him have to consider the guy was good.

I have seen him in alot of army lists that involve having a BSB with a magic standard. As a sort of bodyguard if something nasty comes after him. So if I had to pick which was more effective, him in PG or him in another unit, I would generally say he is more effective in other units then PGs.

Maren
30-08-2011, 12:30
I like the idea of fielding lots of spearmen. Do you have any tips regarding the use of spearmen?

I was thinking fo using two large units and basing my army around that so any units or tactics that work well with them would be welcome :)

Francis
30-08-2011, 19:25
How many are we talking about? The number GW keeps flinging around seems to be 32 spears, 8 wide and 4 deep in order to maximise attacks without going horde. 28 might in fact be better going only 7 wide since that will remove return attacks from hordes and allow all of your spears to fight against a standard 5 wide unit.

Many will claim that spears should only be filled 5 wide and in column to keep them steadfast but I don't really do this myself since the formation seem a bit uncharacteristic for High Elves (lines not column). If you have enough models try a 50 horde. This looks rather scary for an opponent but is not as effective as the same amount of Dwarf warriors with GWs for example. Another problem with hording High Elves is their cost. A 50 horde comes in at 475p with full command.

Then again you could do as my m8 did when he borrowed my HEs and run an 80 horde. With BsB it won't break and it will dish out 50 attacks every turn but it costs 745p with command and is very vulnerable to all templates.

Tarian
30-08-2011, 19:28
Spears + Mindrazor (Or most of the good Shadow Spells) = Pain.

That said, as Francis said, Templates are not fun for T3 5+ expensive Elves.

EnternalVoid
31-08-2011, 09:32
I have been using a single unit of 40 to 42 spearmen myself, with the rest of my core generally being units of archers. They deploy deep, generally 5 maybe 6 wide. They have done me well so far and earned some scorn as well.

Tarian pretty much calls it for me, I prefer Shadow over Life, and Mindrazor makes them scary to face. Last game they destroyed a Bone Giant and tomb scorpion in the same combat. He had been forced to charge the unit with the two in the front and did heavy damage. But they did a wound to each and held due to Steadfast, next turn with Mindrazor they demolished the pair. *He had failed to dispel due to disporition of dice due to Banner of Sorcery and a low roll on the winds of magic*. That said even Withering or to a lesser extent Enfeeble Foe can help them.

I tend to run them deep to prevent people from getting Steadfast or have it myself. Rarely I have lost this unit of late, that said it is not abnormal for them to be reduced to 15-18 models by the end, sometimes as low as 10. That said I try hard to prevent as much templates as I can, luckly some players try to template the phoenix guard instead despite their ability to survive.

I often take the Standard of Discpline with the unit as well. If I put an Archmage in the unit or a BSB gives them a Ld10, and if the Archmage is not in the unit then they have the same Ld as him anyhow thanks to the banner. Gives me a bit more flexibility on how I set up.

D'Haran
31-08-2011, 14:03
Went to a 3k tournament over the weekend, the games were some special scenarios which influenced the decision to bring a unit of 80 spearevles. They were never destroyed in all 4 games and in most games they were as devastating as my deathstar PG (7 characters). In my last game I got into a combat with them and a unit of 100 gutter runners and they cut them to pieces.

GenerationTerrorist
31-08-2011, 15:04
Hi guys.
Thinking of switching things around a little bit with my army, and have a couple of ideas that I'd like some feedback on for a BSB and for a Noble.

The BSB would go in with my horde of Swordmasters (usually buffed by Life Magic Regen stuff) and would carry the following:
- Great Weapon, Armour of Caledor, Other Tricksters Shard, Luckstone

My Noble would be setup primarily for Warmachine hunting and the like:
- Great Eagle, Great Weapon, Dragon Armour, Talisman of Preservation, Charmed Shield.

Incidentally, is it worth taking the Eagle Noble, when I could get roughly 4 Great Eagles for about the same amount of points?

*Edit* For what it is worth, my only other Characters (at the usual 3000pts-4000pts I play at) would be a Lvl4 Life Mage in a PG Bunker with Folariath's Robe, Talisman of Saphery and Staff of Solidity and a Lvl2 High Mage with Annulian Crystal in a unit of Archers.

Maren
31-08-2011, 18:22
I think I can manage two units of 32 with the models I have now so I'm gonna try both that and 28. I just love the thought of a phalanx of elves, all shiny and polished. Mmmmmmh.

Is there any point to putting a hero in them for more hitting power? I used to do that in 7th and it worked ok for me, and I haven't played much (read any) 8th so...

Pyriel
31-08-2011, 19:16
@generation terrorist:
bear in mind that unless you play the fragile elites(swordmasters/white lions) then Shadow is better for HE buffs than Life.

EnternalVoid
01-09-2011, 07:42
Is there any point to putting a hero in them for more hitting power? I used to do that in 7th and it worked ok for me, and I haven't played much (read any) 8th so...

If I do it is generally my BSB or much rarer when I take a prince and need him in that unit for some reason. I generally put heroes in the unit less to add to their killing power and more because their is a good reason to be there.

Maybe they are bodyguarding a mage, maybe it is the ideal place for leadership or BSB bonus. Maybe it is because they will need the S6 against something heading strait at the unit and I feel I need Mindrazor or something elsewhere.

Basically generally it is less a dedicated babysitter hero and more it is an ideal spot for that hero to be at the moment. Our fighty hero options are pretty expensive and fairly soft, and there is only so much good magic armor for them to go around.

grhino
01-09-2011, 15:12
How about this for a Deathstar? Swordmasters with Caradryan and a bsb/other hero with sacred insence and ironcurse icon... (are those different types/categories of magic items?) :D. MR3, -1 to hit by shooting and 6+ ward vs. artillery fire... alternative: put Caradryan and Kohril in there and you've got one killy stubborn unit that resists magic...

Pyriel
01-09-2011, 16:02
...why not deathstar phoenix guard with Korhil, Caradryan and lvl 2 seerstaff wizard with lore of beasts(signature one and savage beast of horros)

i think this and the"40 swordmasters and Life Teclis" are the best HE deathstars right now.

Kay
01-09-2011, 16:28
I like the idea of fielding lots of spearmen. Do you have any tips regarding the use of spearmen?

I was thinking fo using two large units and basing my army around that so any units or tactics that work well with them would be welcome :)

I once saw a Tourney winning list that was something like:

-lvl 4 archmage with BoH and Shadow lore
-BSB

-3x30 Spearmen
3x30 Archers

1x25 Phoenix Guard with BoS

3 or 4 Great Eagles

The point is, he focused units one by one, decreasing its toughness and killing it with the archers, if one unit reached its ranks, he'd then cast mindrazor to the spearmen making them obliterate that said unit.

Eagles were used to hunt down warmachines as usual. he won a whatever named tournament here in spain, and i've seen it posted in Ulthuan.net as a winner of another tourney outside Spain, most probably a different person...

Pyriel
02-09-2011, 19:48
idea for shadow magic-based list:
LvL 4 Shadow w/ vortex shard
prince on barded steed with great weapon dragon armour and vambraces of defence
LvL 2 high mage w/ annulian crystal

26 sea guard w/shields, full command & war banner
20 archers

30 phoenix guard w/ full command, banner of sorcery
14 swordmasters w/ full command, banner of swiftness & amulet of light
5 x dragon princes of kaledor w/ full command,skeinsliver & banner of eternal flame

2400 points
the list utilises shadow buffs and debuffs to help phoenix guard horde and core troops score wounds, while the two small offense choices flank. shadow can even help the DP's if they get tarpited. it also features powerful magic defense that can seriously hinder anyone.

ashc
03-09-2011, 16:25
Are we any good at 1000pt. Games? I have no idea what to run at that level.

Lester
03-09-2011, 16:42
Are we any good at 1000pt. Games? I have no idea what to run at that level.
Probably Prince with the Radiant Gem and Silver Wand (turning him to a Lv1 Mage with 2 Spells) and kitting him out with the remaining 45pts can act as a General and Sturdy Mage. Just tossing the idea around.

Pyriel
03-09-2011, 19:53
what i'd run at 1000 pt games:
-LvL 3 Life archmage w/ silver wand.
-core: 20 sea guard. multiple-role fills the damn mandatory core nicely.
-two units of 14 swordmasters or one unit of 30 white lions.

Citadel97501
03-09-2011, 19:58
Are we any good at 1000pt. Games? I have no idea what to run at that level.

We are actually pretty good at that point level, here is a pretty solid list for 1000 points, you could also drop the mage for a special character if you want to but its "NOT ADVISED", to be frank you need the anti-magic against a lot of lists.

Prince with Armor of Caledor, Great Weapon, Talisman of Preservation (4+)
-(Damn Killy, good for challenges to save the Mage, and great leadership)

Level 2 Mage with Seer Staff, Lore of Shadows or High Magic
-(+3 to dispel, with good magic)

25 spear-men with full command, and Banner of Flame
-(I would prefer Sea Guard in a larger list but these work well, especially with magic support from the mage.)

18 Phoenix Guard with Musician, Standard Bearer, and Banner of Sorcery
-(Terrifying bunker, the mage and prince go here).

Von Wibble
03-09-2011, 20:31
That list is illegal - armies have to have at least 3 units.

1 question I have - can a high elf army at 2000 points or more be competitive without taking a level 3 or 4 wizard? I feel at the moment its too much of a crutch for us and want to use an army where magic is still used (I would still have at least 2 wizards and banner of sorcery) but not relied on to such an extent. What kinds of builds have been used that work?

Lester
03-09-2011, 20:35
That list is illegal - armies have to have at least 3 units.

1 question I have - can a high elf army at 2000 points or more be competitive without taking a level 3 or 4 wizard? I feel at the moment its too much of a crutch for us and want to use an army where magic is still used (I would still have at least 2 wizards and banner of sorcery) but not relied on to such an extent. What kinds of builds have been used that work?
Practically every army needs a high level Mage. It is a crutch all around, not just for HE.

Mr. Shine
03-09-2011, 23:15
Are we any good at 1000pt. Games? I have no idea what to run at that level.

I've yet to play it, but it seems like an okay mix on paper to me:

Heroes

Mage - 145pts
-Level 2
-Silver Wand

Core

25 Spearmen - 250pts
-Full Command

-OR-

20x Archers - 250pts
-Full Command
-Gleaming Penant

Special

14x Sword Masters - 240pts
-Full Command

14x White Lions - 240pts
-Full Command

Rare

Great Eagle - 50pts

Leaves you with 75pts to spare. You could also directly substitute Phoenix Guard for either of the Sword Masters or White Lions in equal numbers. Could even be a good choice if you beefed the Phoenix Guard numbers to 19 with full command as a 5x4 bunker for the Mage.

Pyriel
04-09-2011, 07:00
lvl 2 mage+75 pts is 250 poins, dude. it would be much better if he payed 245 points for LvL 3 with dispel scroll:
-+1 Ld for his general.
-+1 wound for his character.
-+1 spells known, and much better casting. especialy if he uses High magic: shield of saphery can help protect the swordmasters, and he will also have drain magic and two other spells. this will seriously hinder most ppl at 1000 pts lvl (though some ppl would argue taking an archmage in 1000 pts is overpowered)

the rest of the list looks very nice actualy :)

winterking07
04-09-2011, 20:06
1 question I have - can a high elf army at 2000 points or more be competitive without taking a level 3 or 4 wizard? I feel at the moment its too much of a crutch for us and want to use an army where magic is still used (I would still have at least 2 wizards and banner of sorcery) but not relied on to such an extent. What kinds of builds have been used that work?


I think HE can do a better job of managing without a lord-level wizard than many other armies. The Annulli Crystal is key to this, of course (don't leave home without it!), as are our dispel bonus and the flexibility of High magic. Drain Magic can be a neat way to start off a magic phase--if the enemy stops it, he's just spent dispel dice on a minor spell; if he lets it through, his magic phase is hurt more than yours, because High magic spells are cheaper to cast (especially the wonderful Shield of Saphery).

For your second mage, I think you'd either want a dispel scroll, or possibly the Seerstaff, to make sure that you have the spells you want for your army. Actually, on further thought, I'd recommend our Trickster's Pendant (the other Other Trickster's Shard). Given how many people rely on IF to succeed with their biggest, nastiest spells, making the inevitable miscast roll worse is a neat trick.

Pyriel
04-09-2011, 20:16
+1.

an army NEEDS an ability to defend aganst magic, period.
one way is to play a LvL 4 mage to have a +4 on dispels and possibly some dispel scroll.
...buuuut, lvl 4 aside,...

who does it the cheapest? High Elves! a LvL 2 with annulian crystal can hinder *anyone* to cast a spell, having a +3 to dispel and stealing dice from him. if High magic, he can also increase your foe's cast values(nothing to sneeze at; imagine your foe's vital mindrazor being 20+ casting difficulty. hard to do when you even steal dice from him) and even protect your units with shield of saphery.

for bonus, a second low-level mage can take a sigil of assurian and completely erase your opponent's most crucial spell.

HE also have may other options, including good magic-resistance banners as well as Banner of the World dragon, an excellent choice for your deathstar unit that will negate magical threats. another interesting choice is gem of hoeth+dispel scroll+guardian phoenix+talisman of loec on a prince, 100 points total. with just dragon armour, great weapon and barded steed, he will be tough and killy as hell, and will channel/use scroll/dispel at +2. he can also have lore of death to use the signature Ld-oriented spell at his Ld 10 :P

due to that cheap-ish magic defense, the HE are the army to play if you dont want to be caster-heavy. now, if you dont want to have powerful magic defense either, then sorry, no army can deal. not just high elves-nobody.

winterking07
04-09-2011, 20:23
I've yet to play it, but it seems like an okay mix on paper to me:



I had some success recently with a somewhat similar list. As Pyriel suggests, I had a L3 mage as my general, mostly because I wanted both magic ability and a BSB. A block of 28 Spears filled up my core (and consumed a few spare points). No archers; if you're fielding elite infantry, give them some decent support. Instead of the SM and WL blocks, and to save points for a standard BSB, I had two blocks of 10 SM, 7 wide, without command, flanking the Spears. I also had a great eagle, because they're great.

I found that, at the small points level, the lack of command group on my SM wasn't really a problem. Plus, 14 SM/WL with command groups are a combined 480 points, but won't survive a whole lot longer than my 2x10 SM at 300 points. They'll be good for chewing through one unit, but that first combat's attrition will hurt a lot. (That said, the 14+command works better for WL than SM, I think--you lose less by having a full second rank, since 2nd-rank WL are just as effective as front-line ones, while 2nd-rank SM are 50% as good.)

Lester
04-09-2011, 20:59
+1.

an army NEEDS an ability to defend aganst magic, period.
one way is to play a LvL 4 mage to have a +4 on dispels and possibly some dispel scroll.
...buuuut, lvl 4 aside,...

who does it the cheapest? High Elves! a LvL 2 with annulian crystal can hinder *anyone* to cast a spell, having a +3 to dispel and stealing dice from him. if High magic, he can also increase your foe's cast values(nothing to sneeze at; imagine your foe's vital mindrazor being 20+ casting difficulty. hard to do when you even steal dice from him) and even protect your units with shield of saphery.

for bonus, a second low-level mage can take a sigil of assurian and completely erase your opponent's most crucial spell.

HE also have may other options, including good magic-resistance banners as well as Banner of the World dragon, an excellent choice for your deathstar unit that will negate magical threats. another interesting choice is gem of hoeth+dispel scroll+guardian phoenix+talisman of loec on a prince, 100 points total. with just dragon armour, great weapon and barded steed, he will be tough and killy as hell, and will channel/use scroll/dispel at +2. he can also have lore of death to use the signature Ld-oriented spell at his Ld 10 :P

due to that cheap-ish magic defense, the HE are the army to play if you dont want to be caster-heavy. now, if you dont want to have powerful magic defense either, then sorry, no army can deal. not just high elves-nobody.
I wouldn't say an army needs strong Dispell ability (look at Dwarfs) but it is something that strongly considered. It is possible for some armies to build an list around negating/ignoring magic.

ashc
04-09-2011, 21:00
Empire built with archlectors and priests come to mind.

Its a shame they completely dropped the ball on magic resistance rules this edition.

Mr. Shine
04-09-2011, 23:34
I found that, at the small points level, the lack of command group on my SM wasn't really a problem. Plus, 14 SM/WL with command groups are a combined 480 points, but won't survive a whole lot longer than my 2x10 SM at 300 points. They'll be good for chewing through one unit, but that first combat's attrition will hurt a lot. (That said, the 14+command works better for WL than SM, I think--you lose less by having a full second rank, since 2nd-rank WL are just as effective as front-line ones, while 2nd-rank SM are 50% as good.)

This has actually got me thinking - if I drop the command groups from both units, and split the Swordmasters into two units of 7 that puts me at 720 points, keeping the Great Eagle, before adding a general.

It'd be nice to squeeze some Silver Helms, or better, Dragon Princes in there, but that would be breaking my Special points limit. Would I be better off with a single unit of 7 Swordmasters and throwing in a naked unit of 5 Dragon Princes, plus an Archmage as my general? Something like:

Lords

Archmage

Core

25 Spearmen - 250pts
-Full Command

Special

7x Sword Masters - 105pts

14x White Lions - 210pts

5x Dragon Princes - 150pts

Rare

Great Eagle - 50pts

Don't have the Archmage points off the top of my head, but I think that should fit with about 10 points to spare?

GenerationTerrorist
05-09-2011, 07:58
Hi all. Just wondering what people's thoughts are on the following Prince build I have decided to test out in a few upcoming games.

- Prince with Armour of Silvered Steel, Dragonbane, The White Sword, Talisman of Loec

He will be running in a unit of 17 Swordmasters with FC, Standard of Balance and Helm of Fortune. The Prince would take on every challenge that he possibly could, as the Sword/Loec combo gives a great chance of getting a Killing Blow attack out there to take out some unfortunate important character. Even without the Killing Blow, he is still re-rolling all To Wound dice at S6. The rest of the time, I'd be more than confident of him surviving attacks from rank and file troops, especially if he as a Regen or Flesh to Stone buff from my Life Archmage in his nearby PG Bunker.

winterking07
05-09-2011, 09:23
Hi all. Just wondering what people's thoughts are on the following Prince build I have decided to test out in a few upcoming games.

- Prince with Armour of Silvered Steel, Dragonbane, The White Sword, Talisman of Loec

He will be running in a unit of 17 Swordmasters...

Why are you sticking a very killy character in an already killy unit? Swordmasters are a marvelous whirling death-stravaganza, and they really won't benefit too much from the Prince's support. You'd be better off strengthening a unit of Spears.

As for the prince's build, you should remember that an awful lot of the "rank and file" troops you'll be facing will be at S4 or higher. Your prince might have a lot of incoming attacks to deal with, and a 2+ save shrinks fast. And if you're facing enemy characters, you should assume that they'll be hitting at S6 or better--when your prince is in a challenge, he'll have only 4 attacks with which to kill his opponent in round 1, or be torn apart by enemy return attacks that shred his armor. He's not automatically doomed, of course--but you'll need to work harder to protect him with supporting units or magic or both.

Oberon
05-09-2011, 16:07
White sword=extra expensive great weapon.
Armour of silvered steel=armour of caledor, but twice as expensive
Talisman of loec=great item for one turn of killing stuff, but you will take a wound. With no ward saves, you often can't afford to take that one wound.

How about armour of caledor, vambraces of defence, GW, and something for 20 points if you want? Like amulet of light/the other trickster's shard/talisman of loec?

SM don't really need the extra CC power a prince brings, I mean this prince costs about 300 points, or about 20 swordmasters, and he strikes as hard as 2-3 SM.

ashc
05-09-2011, 17:06
Vambraces of Defence are *awesome*.

Just wanted to say that!

leecutter
05-09-2011, 17:45
I have to agree with oberon, plus if you use that extra 20 points for a potion of strength you can do some damage to a monster or daemon prince, something killing blow doesn't help you with.

GenerationTerrorist
05-09-2011, 21:38
Cheers for the tips, guys :-)
So you think maybe: Great Weapon, Armour of Caledor, Vambraces of Defence and Potion of Strength is a better overall setup? How about Other Tricksters Shard instead of PoS? Forcing something like a Greater Daemon to re-roll Ward Saves might be useful?

Francis
06-09-2011, 12:09
I prefer ToTS to PoS. Just don't put him in a unit of PG. I used to equip my Prince with the White Sword, AoC, GP and ToL. But has since changed that to the AoC, GW, VoD combo. I toss in ToL or ToTS depending upon my day (but if you prefer to use the White Sword ToL is better than ToTS due to more KBs).

I dread the day the new HE book arrive and I will have to use GW, ToP and AoSS :(

Btw that is a whole new topic. How will you guys deal with loosing most of our magic items? I think I will cry a bit, then I will have to start redesigning most of the characters I have made, and part of their fluff...

winterking07
06-09-2011, 17:20
I dread the day the new HE book arrive and I will have to use GW, ToP and AoSS :(

Btw that is a whole new topic. How will you guys deal with loosing most of our magic items? I think I will cry a bit, then I will have to start redesigning most of the characters I have made, and part of their fluff...


It's going to be a sad, sad day. Especially if we don't get to hold on to things like the Armor of Caledor, Vambrances of Defense, or Annulli Crystal. Those are the three I'd miss the most, with maybe the Banner of Sorcery and the Skeinsliver as runners-up. I'll also miss the Guardian Phoenix and Helm of Fortune. An awful lot of our items can go away without a fuss, though: I don't think I've ever seen a serious list with the Cloak of Beards, Armor of Protection (? whatever the name of that light armor with a 4+ ward is) or most of our magic weapons.

enyoss
06-09-2011, 17:30
Other Trickter's Shard is much better than a potion of strength. Not only is it better for the Prince by himself, it also helps the models around him to get by enemy ward saves (by making them attack the models in base contact with the Prince).

Von Wibble
06-09-2011, 18:27
Btw that is a whole new topic. How will you guys deal with loosing most of our magic items? I think I will cry a bit, then I will have to start redesigning most of the characters I have made, and part of their fluff...

Well, Ogre Kingdons have 10 items rather than 8 so I wouldn't be surprised if high elves also got this many. Ogres also got big names which are effectively magic items, just with a restriction on who can have them. The majority of the itemsin the ogre book (and for that matter the TK book) are very good.

Items I'd want to see kept would be armour of stars, annulian crystal, book of hoeth (nerfed obviously! - I would suggest all spells have -5 to casting value to a minimum of 3), ring of corin (not one use only), banner of sorcery, bow of the seafarer (wouldn't mind too much if wood elves got it instead though), seerstaff, radiant gem, talisman of loec.

That's 9 items - add in a return of armour of the gods at 50 points for a tenth item.

I can't think of any other items I'd be that bothered losing - imo you have to accept that items that are cheaper clones of those in the brb will not be included, and we can sub for helm of fortune with dawnstone to an extent.

leecutter
06-09-2011, 22:22
- I would suggest all spells have -5 to casting value to a minimum of 3)

so...

Drain magic 3
S. Saphery 3
A.Attraction 3
Courage 3
Fury Khain 3
Flames 6
Vaul's 7

I would bet no.... but way to be optimistic

GenerationTerrorist
06-09-2011, 22:25
Yeah, I can't really think of any of the Magic Weapons that I would REALLY miss.
The ones I really hope that they keep would be: Armour of Caledor, Vambraces of Defence, Guardian Phoenix, Talisman of Saphery, Folariath's Robes, Seerstaff of Saphery, Annulian Crystal, Banner of Sorcery, Banner of Balance.

Those are the items I take in pretty much every list at 3000pts and above :-)

In a peverse kind of way, I really hope that any new book for us is many years in the future! Same holds true for my WoC!

leecutter
06-09-2011, 23:21
I dunno I don't really care about what items they keep, if they get rid of em all im sure they'll be replaced by equally good ones. It's the core choices I want to see changed weather its points values, or putting reavers or silverhelms in there, I dunno but core is boring right now for high elves I wan't to have more fun with my lists.

Akkristor
06-09-2011, 23:23
I'd miss both of the magic bows. Most of the time, if I have an Archmage, i use the RBT magic bow on him, and i like to give one of my Mages the 3shot bow. Since I normally stick them in units of Archers anyway, it gives them something useful to do in the Shooting phase, as well as the Magic phase.

Von Wibble
07-09-2011, 20:45
so...

Drain magic 3
S. Saphery 3
A.Attraction 3
Courage 3
Fury Khain 3
Flames 6
Vaul's 7

I would bet no.... but way to be optimistic

You forget that a high elf book rewrite would have much higher casting values in the first place and be more in line with the rulebook lores. Not an unreasonable ability for 75-100 points since its roughly an extra 3-4 power dice per turn equivalent, but doesn't make the spells harder to dispel for the enemy.

Lester
07-09-2011, 21:01
You forget that a high elf book rewrite would have much higher casting values in the first place and be more in line with the rulebook lores. Not an unreasonable ability for 75-100 points since its roughly an extra 3-4 power dice per turn equivalent, but doesn't make the spells harder to dispel for the enemy.
So basically the idea is to turn it to a weaker power scroll that is always on?

cptcosmic
08-09-2011, 09:06
I think HE should have more magic items then every one else. it would make sense fluff wise as they have the largest fleet, where almost everyone in the world, exist for quite long and are masters of magic.

items I would miss are:
Helm of Luck, Armour of Caledor, Vambraces of Defence, Guardian Phoenix, Silver Wand, Seerstaff, Annulian Crystal, Banner of Sorcery, Reaver Bow

what I will not miss is: ASF for everyone. It would make sense if the heroes would have it but the whole army? I hate that rule. it would be a much better solution to give army wide ability to shoot & attack from an additional rank (just like spearelves) and reduce the cost across the board slightly and give some units a bit more oomph, e.g. HE spears could get parry save with spears equipped. *dreaming*

Maren
09-09-2011, 11:51
Are they making a new armybook? God damn it! I just bought this one! Can someone link info on it? Would be appreciated :)

cptcosmic
09-09-2011, 11:58
Are they making a new armybook? God damn it! I just bought this one! Can someone link info on it? Would be appreciated :)
no, new book is still far far away but if they follow the new trend HE will lose all of their cool magic items.

ashc
09-09-2011, 15:02
lose all of their useless magic items.

warplock
09-09-2011, 15:17
I think HE should have more magic items then every one else.

Except Lizardmen, chosen of the Old Ones, who taught magic to the HE.
And Dwarfs, who are just as ancient as HE and inscribe magic runes on to everything. And Orcs and Goblins, who have pillaged and stolen for thousands of years. And Skaven, who infuse everything with magical warpstone and are the world's most ingenious inventors. And Chaos, who are at the very least blessed by the Gods themselves, and in some cases are actually made of magic...

leecutter
10-09-2011, 06:24
Whatever... back to tactics, what do you guys give your elite units for magic items, I usually run my 14 swordmasters with Banner of Swiftness and a potion of strength for the champion with the hope of beating an enemy character in a challenge for the extra VP

warplock
10-09-2011, 08:47
An elite unit of mine usually carries the Banner of Sorcery. My Swordmaster champions have a Potion of Strength for three S8 attacks.

Oberon
10-09-2011, 09:13
My white lions, being a horde usually take the flaming banner and amulet of light and act as a univeral answer for every problem (monsters, regen, knights, wraiths). They won't kill that many characters due to dragonbane gems and dragonhelms, but the regiment those characters hide in will vanish fast.

My swordmasters have lion standard or gleaming pendant and the champion usually takes talisman of loec or the other trickster's shard. I've lost the unit due to failed fear checks followed by doing next to nothing and dying, so I'm now taking items that help with LD for them. SM are killy enough.

I haven't fielded my PG yet, but they will take banner of sorcery and champion takes MR1 item or something, he doesn't really have any must take-items IMO, as long as somebody has amulet of light.

My dragon princes take banner of ellyrion or banner of flames if I don't somehow field white lions. DP don't usually get a champion, but if they do he has potion of str.

cptcosmic
10-09-2011, 13:30
Except Lizardmen, chosen of the Old Ones, who taught magic to the HE.
interesting, my BRB states that HE learned magic directly from the old ones and lizardmen were only created for a single purpose :) RAW

Mirbeau
10-09-2011, 15:16
Whatever... back to tactics, what do you guys give your elite units for magic items, I usually run my 14 swordmasters with Banner of Swiftness and a potion of strength for the champion with the hope of beating an enemy character in a challenge for the extra VP

ironcurse icon and banner of eternal flame for my largeish lions block (7x4). my swordmasters (8x2) used to run with a potion/armour of caledor for the blademaster, but now i am experimenting with the standard of balance, and the blademaster gets the talisman of loec, turning him into a one shot missile capable of taking most things down in challenges. Though life magic pleasantly allows this to happen a few times in a game nowadays!

Von Wibble
10-09-2011, 16:26
So basically the idea is to turn it to a weaker power scroll that is always on?

Yes.



For elite units I have to agree with above posters. Banner of sorcery is very useful, as of course is Banner of Eternal Flame. Standard of Balance is nice against dark elves and chaos.

Helm of fortune on a dragon prince champion is nice as a way to annoy enemy characters by not dying in a hurry.

I tend to give ironcurse icon to a mage but it can be given to a champion I suppose.

Haven't ever tried potion of strength, but with large monsters like sphinxes and stonehorns becoming more popular I can certainly see the appeal.

Brotheroracle
13-09-2011, 06:43
I'm thinking of getting back into fantasy and was wondering if Seagaurd heavy armies are viable?

BlackPawl
13-09-2011, 12:23
I think no, because they are to expensive for a T3 1A AS6+ unit. They can deal out good damage against other T3 opponents (like empire and goblins), but struggle (if they do not get mindrizor on them) against T4 or AS2+ opponents.
One or two hits from a mortar or stone thrower can ruin their day too.

Pyriel
13-09-2011, 12:44
i disagree, depending on what you mean "seaguard-heavy".
Core-heavy armies are generaly NOT viable for high elves.
not archer spam.
not spearmen.
not nothing. strength 3 toughness 3 wont realy get you far unless you cost 5-7 points. and no, all these choices are more expensive.

typicaly, though, you're gonna need a 25% min core units.
and i'll say all of our core are equal: they all suck, and using any more than 25% points for them is stupid.
they all can gather enough models for these 25% points to maybe guard some wizard far-casting character as the REST (and only the rest) of your army plays. spearmen gather more models, but sea guard or archers grant more support due to bows (no matter what you play, your core WILL just be cowering behind)
they all become deadly with okkam's mindrazor spell due to high Ld.

so yes, an army using seaguard-only as core is definitely viable. you will be spending 25% of your points in them, and they are fail, but all 3 high elves core choices are fail. some are "less fail" but thats a poor argument :P "fail" is always "fail".

hence i play the Core i like fluff-wise; i dont look for a good competitive choice cause there's none. the idea is, the characters will be supporting your super-powerful Special units that will be carrying the army, just like always.

GenerationTerrorist
13-09-2011, 13:04
I like my Seaguard blocks. Sure, they are a tad expensive, but the versatility they provide is far more useful (and less template-pieshot-worthy) than similar points of Archers and Spearmen in seperate units.

My High Elves are played in an aggressive style, so maybe someone playing more defensively would benefit better from the two other Core choices. I just like the fact I can move, shoot, move, hold the charge, then flank with my more killy units like Swordmasters. Of course, I can play defensively with them, and benefit from the Volley Fire rule, if absolutely needed.

As Pyriel mentioned, though, don't take any more than the absolute minimum of Core that you need to!

As for the earlier discussion of Units/Champions, I like to run Banner of Sorcery on my Swordmaster Horde (38 of them, BSB and Lvl4 with the "Unkillable" setup) and give the unit champion the Talisman of Loec for taking Challenges. Then he gets bought back with Regrowth the next magic phase. My Phoenix Guard block (bunker for my other Archmage) tends to run the Standard of Balance and Foe Bane on the unit champion. My support unit of Swordmasters (18 strong) carries the Banner of Discipline so that they can operate more reliably off on their own somewhere or in defending the Watchtower in that scenario. Yes, I play big games :-)

leecutter
16-09-2011, 18:14
I run one unit of 35 Spearmen and one unit of 20 SG at 2500. The seaguard have Flame Banner and I put my mage in there with Dragon bow. I also take 2 RBT's giving me 12 S4 armor piercing shots, 15 S3 flaming bow shots and 3 S5 flaming bow shots. I can generally take down a Hydra in a turn. Lots of regen out there these days, especially with lore of Life being so popular although regen is irrelevant if the unit has +4 T as well...

EnternalVoid
17-09-2011, 08:19
I run one unit of 35 Spearmen and one unit of 20 SG at 2500. The seaguard have Flame Banner and I put my mage in there with Dragon bow. I also take 2 RBT's giving me 12 S4 armor piercing shots, 15 S3 flaming bow shots and 3 S5 flaming bow shots. I can generally take down a Hydra in a turn. Lots of regen out there these days, especially with lore of Life being so popular although regen is irrelevant if the unit has +4 T as well...

One quick thing, the Reaver Bow would not get the flaming attack rule, the Banner of Eternal Flame does not give magic weapons flaming attacks. Check the flaming attack rules in the special rule section *book in the car so I can't give you the page number*. Also as the unit fires simo the regenerating target would get to use its Regen save against the reaver bow shots.

That said I am waiting for our current campaign to end so I can get a few practice games, read an interesting read about an archer tactic for high elves that might not be a bad idea with the Banner of Eternal Flame. Enough S3 arrows, with perhaps the Flaming Sword of Ruin, can cut down even an Abomination.

trotsky
17-09-2011, 20:23
I just bought the dragon kit (such a cool kit!) and, although i bought it for the modeling/painting, i would love to try it in a game.
I know its not super competative but how do you get the most out of a star dragon? Are the other hero choices in a 2250 game level 2 and a bsb or can you sqeeze in a level 4?

Sorry if this has been adressed before but i haven't managed to read through the whole thread yet.

Mace1982
17-09-2011, 20:32
At 2250 can you fit a prince in I mean star dragon is 370 prince 150 that's 520 on lords with no items and at 2250 you can only use 563 points in lords so you have 43 points for gear and magic items best to go for 2400 lists with star dragons pal

Tarian
18-09-2011, 05:50
I don't field a dragon until at least 2500 points personally, usually closer to 3k. Dragons aren't very competitive this ed. in my opinion, but best use for them is to slam into a unit as support, as someone else can eat the challenge, and the dragon will rack up a *lot* of kills.

enyoss
18-09-2011, 10:27
Tarian makes a good point about using dragons as support units. In my opinion though, the attacks from any dragon are really playing second fiddle to its Thunderstomp attacks. So, the costing of the Dragons, which to a large extent took into account the fact that Star Dragons got 6 attacks whereas a Moon Dragon got 5, is a little skew-whiff these day. Also, considering that the hand weapon and shield bonus has changed, the -4 armour save from the S7 Star Dragon isn't as effective as it used to be compared to the -3 armour save from the S6 Moon Dragon.

So, although there are lots of other bonuses which come with the extra cost (mainly that extra wound), you could quite happily swap the Star Dragon for a Moon Dragon at 2250 to give you an extra 70pts which could go towards magic items on the Prince, without sacrificing a huge amount of combat effectiveness. Basically, without getting too gamesmanshipy, the changes from 7th to 8th mean that extra 70pts for the upgrade is worth less than it was.

Pyriel
18-09-2011, 11:12
regarding dragons:
assuming you wish to field dragons, i strongly support the "moon dragon+prince with armour of kaledor, vambraces, and great weapon" idea. it is 542 points. thats about 23% of 2250 pts hence legal.

if you go that route, however, then you NEED two mage heroes, one with annuliancrytal, one with sigil of assurian. minimum to survive magical onslaught of the enemy.

Brotheroracle
19-09-2011, 01:21
What about dragon mages? The extra casting dice, hero slot and fire being a decent lore seems like its not as terrible as before

Pyriel
19-09-2011, 03:15
the dragon mage is better than some think, but used in a very unfun way imho.

imagine a list with a powerful lvl 4 mage. cool, useful, right? he also gets an arcane item like book of hoeth or annulian crystal.

imagine a 250-pt sun dragon. it is not an excellent choice, but definitely not bad either.

now, how much would you pay for a Sigil of Assurian(easily used at 1st turn when dragon mage will most of the time be alive) and some uberfew channel dice/superminor casting?... would you pay 140 points? i am not sure. but given the fact that you already have a powerful mage, it is not a disastrous choice. remember, when the dragon charges, its not wasted caster points; you didnt pay for a mage, you payed for a super dispel scroll platform. otherwise, just a cheap dragon.

this is the only trul useful dragon mage variant i've seen.

Chiungalla
19-09-2011, 07:13
What about dragon mages? The extra casting dice, hero slot and fire being a decent lore seems like its not as terrible as before

But you can't hide him as easily as in 7th edition. And arrows will take your mage down very fast, not speaking of war machines. And unless you play large battles he will more or less cost you your BSB.

grhino
19-09-2011, 07:41
I'd definately recommend a Dragon Mage - great unit to us with silver wand and guardian phoenix - try not to get shot at, though. But the +1 dice is very useful.

Also, I've used a sun dragon with a prince on top to amazing effect in one game (only time I used it) but that was in 7th ed. when breaking units on flank charges with monsters was still easy... But I guess it could work - it is not a bad mount!

Pyriel
19-09-2011, 13:13
what are people's opinions on this Special setup:

20x swordmasters (full command, banner of eternal flame, amulet of light)
10 x dragon princes of kaledor (full command, banner of ellyrion)
20 x phoenix guard (full command, banner of sorcery)

it is exactly 1000 points.

Francis
19-09-2011, 14:11
what are people's opinions on this Special setup:

20x swordmasters (full command, banner of eternal flame, amulet of light)
10 x dragon princes of kaledor (full command, banner of ellyrion)
20 x phoenix guard (full command, banner of sorcery)

it is exactly 1000 points.

Remove BoE from the DPs and add a SM so you can put them in a 7x3 formation. Nothing else to say really. It looks good.

ashc
19-09-2011, 15:29
Anyone else feel that HElves are feeling pretty cookie-cutter these days?

Mace1982
19-09-2011, 18:32
I don't agree with using sword masters in blocks I just run them in a 6/7 otherwise those 2 attacks per model get wasted take White lions people will ignore the sword masters till it is too late


---
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ashc
19-09-2011, 21:39
So, any tips for facing our dark kin? In particular neutering fire support from rxb and rbt threats. I am wondering if a great eagle noble could be useful?

Von Wibble
19-09-2011, 22:03
The biggest weakness of the repeater crossbow is the lower range. Take archers and stand back, then concentrate firepower early on. Their rbts are no worse than ours - I know our troops are more expensive but 2 out of the 3 elites are fairly resilient to shooting.

Other than that, things that work well against high elves tend to also against dark elves. Think about what you dread facing that you can field yourself andf go with it. Chariots are great against dark elves because impact hits negate thier fast striking for example.

Great eagle noble is no better or worse vs dark elves than anyone else. What role do you envisage? - its not like you'll have many war machines to hunt with rbts being so bad. Cauldron seems the best target by far.

2 good magic items for the job are ring of corin (they have a few very good magic items) and standard of balance (to negate hatred, and possible frenzy too).

ashc
19-09-2011, 22:09
To start off I'm looking at 1000pt. games against them, I know he plans to run a list like this:

Heroes (32%):

Sorceress, Level 2, Power Scroll
170pts

Master, Halberd, Heavy armour, Sea Dragon cloak, Battle Standard Bearer, Dragonhelm, Dawnstone
152pts

Core Units (34%):

18 Dark Elf Warriors, Shields, Full command, Standard of Discipline
144pts

2x 10 Repeater Crossbowmen
2x 100pts

Assassin, Additional Hand weapon, Throwing Stars
126pts

Special Units (11%):

5 Shades, Great weapons
108 pts

Rare Units (10%):

Reaper Bolt Thrower
100pts

Total: 1000pts

I have 2 sets of IoB and some Shadow Warriors, plus characters for now, but obviously looking at expanding anyway. I am thinking take an archmage and magic him to death to be honest.

Trains_Get_Robbed
20-09-2011, 00:25
High Elves are beyond cookie cutter now days. :/ I'm just glad I have been running/testing out new bulids that have been variants or tech's that most people would find peculiar or innovative upon testing and local/regional metagame.

Francis
22-09-2011, 16:23
High Elves are beyond cookie cutter now days. :/.

Which might be why this thread has dried up a bit lately. The thing is that when you ask for a good build you are going to get the tried and tested tournament build that can safely be used against most lists. People keep their interesting lists to themselves most of the time, so as not to be accused of being amateurs good forbid.

With regards to the earlier LSG discussion, I am currently building and testing a LSG list based upon a Hawkship and its crew. Difficult to play with but a lot of fun as long as you can find opponents that can stay away from the worst cheese. And when I win I feel like I really did something which is a great feeling.

ashc
22-09-2011, 18:55
I'm definitely wanting to run LSG. Besides having loads of them, I actually like their dual nature in terms of not having to spend points between archers/spearmen.

Francis
22-09-2011, 19:31
What kind of lord are you going to use them with? In my Sea Guard list I have been trying out a lord with GW, BoSF, armour of fortune and a shield. The problem is that he is a bit squishy. Is there any way of making him more durable without loosing the BoSF. (I am thinking about using him on an eagle but I really like the extra LD and punch he gives to my Seaguards).

ashc
22-09-2011, 19:40
I'm not running a seaguard list, so I don't think I can be as of much help, as in larger games i am planning to run a mageknight.

Mace1982
22-09-2011, 19:50
What kind of lord are you going to use them with? In my Sea Guard list I have been trying out a lord with GW, BoSF, armour of fortune and a shield. The problem is that he is a bit squishy. Is there any way of making him more durable without loosing the BoSF. (I am thinking about using him on an eagle but I really like the extra LD and punch he gives to my Seaguards).

well what do you want him to survive if you want him bling bling in close combat then this si the lord i play around with

prince
Gw
bosf
golden shield
dragon armour

usually does well in cc

ashc
22-09-2011, 21:44
Careful listing like that Mace1982, individual points costs cannot be divulged on here, so you will want to edit your post.

Anyway, Lord build: Vambraces of Defence, Radiant Gem of Hoeth, Barded Steed, Heavy or Dragon Armour, Great weapon. - 3+ rerollable, 4+ ward, signature death spell in a small unit of dragon princes. Nip about and pop characters and smaller units you can break on the charge.

Mace1982
22-09-2011, 22:40
Careful listing like that Mace1982, individual points costs cannot be divulged on here, so you will want to edit your post.

Anyway, Lord build: Vambraces of Defence, Radiant Gem of Hoeth, Barded Steed, Heavy or Dragon Armour, Great weapon. - 3+ rerollable, 4+ ward, signature death spell in a small unit of dragon princes. Nip about and pop characters and smaller units you can break on the charge.

Edited accordingly cheers for the heads up completely forgot about that one


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Tarian
23-09-2011, 02:10
My Seaguard Lord is:

Bow of the Seafarer
Armor of Caledor
Great Weapon

witchunter180
23-09-2011, 02:48
I've been trying to build a list that lets me use my IoB prince on griffin. Before I was just running the extra sword master as a prnce/noble on foot. Now, given that I'm playing at only 1k pts, obviously a real griffon is out of the question. As a result I'm taking him as either a noble or prince, or at least as being on a great eagle. Running a heavy IoB list, any loadout recommendations for a mounted prince/noble on great eagle?

ashc
23-09-2011, 06:59
I run mine as eltharion in large enough games. I suppose you could have a lord on great eagle with armour of caledor and great weapon. I would rather take a L3 archmage with silver wand and high magic though at 1k.

witchunter180
23-09-2011, 14:57
I run mine as eltharion in large enough games. I suppose you could have a lord on great eagle with armour of caledor and great weapon. I would ratuer take a L3 archmage with silver wand and high magic though at 1k.

I had thought about a mage on an eagle. I worried he'd be too much of a target, but I guess he'd also be less likely take other models out if he miscasts. I'll give that a shot, thx for the tip!

ashc
23-09-2011, 17:20
I didn't mean have him on an eagle sorry, if you wanted an archmage it wouldn't be possible in a 1000pt. game anyway, I just meant on foot.

witchunter180
24-09-2011, 02:28
Yup, you're right, and a basic mage can't take a great eagle. I guess it'll be the noble/prince. Oh well, I suppose I could have one on a steend with my reavers :/

Brotheroracle
24-09-2011, 02:35
I think an LSG army would be fun as long as you invested magic heavily. Shadow magic and Curse of Arrow seems like a fun way to get you points out of those bows.

ashc
24-09-2011, 09:27
That's what I am going to do. L4 Shadow, L2 High, LSG as core.

witchunter180
24-09-2011, 15:17
In the WD IoB issue, that was the case they used. That and shieid of saphery for round2.

Mirbeau
24-09-2011, 15:57
Ok high elven generals, If faced with a set game (lists pre chosen), what would you do to win in these circumstances. The game is 2000 points, based on the one I had last thursday. Was a really fun game but I'd like to know what you'd have done with what was available. With NO alterations to the list.

Lvl 4 life - forlaith's robes
- sigil (auto dispel, 4+ to destroy spell)
- crown of command

Bsb - armour of caledor/guardian phoenix shield g-wep

lvl 1 shadow
- seerstaff

20 spears
cmd

20 seaguard
cmd

10 archers

14 swordmasters - talisman of loec
cmd

24 white lions, flaming banner
cmd

5 reavers.
bows no spears

You are facing two hellpits, a grey seer on a bell pushed by a massive (not horded) unit of stormvermin (with a banner that hampers leadership), with a bsb (with the +3 combat res banner), chieftan and engineer, and large plague monks unit (again not horded) with plague priest.

On a 4x4 table - so avoidance of the stormvermin isn't too realistic. Have at you!

Mace1982
24-09-2011, 19:16
Take mindrazor , use the vanguard move to get up in his face redirect the stormvermin with reavers, then alot of shooting magic weaken his blocks, use reavers to control the abomb and mindrazor the spears then smash him in the face


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Arthanor
29-09-2011, 00:06
Seeing as this thread is falling down the forum pages, I thought I'd put up an idea for you guys to criticize.

I'm thinking that, in many lists, we see a unit carrying the standard of eternal flame (or something similar that gives flaming attacks). That unit tends to be rather killy, costs a lot, and is obviously aimed at taking out monsters with regen. I know high elven special infantry is awesome, but has anyone considered dragon princes as a foil to these units? Even a small unit will take a long time to kill given it's 2+ armor save followed by the 2+ ward, should kill a fair few models on the charge and, if you manage to charge a flank, should win the first round. The following ones are likely to be lost due to CR, but dragon princes have a good leadership and should hang on, especially if within the range of the Battle Standard.

So something like.. 5-6 DPs, with standard bearer? That's not too expensive and could ruin the day of a big monster killing unit worth a fair bit more. Even a noble or prince on an eagle could do it, and then you kill a few models every round from the GW he wields, but that's not much cheaper. I barely ever play, so I can't really tell if it would work, so.. what do you think?

Francis
29-09-2011, 01:25
This would certainly work very well if you knew which enemy unit were carrying the BoEF. In most of my games though, I won't know this. As for dragon Princes in general I am trying out a unit of 7 atm with Terrifying Mask of EEE to give them terror.

Arthanor
29-09-2011, 16:33
Oh, that's a good point.. I'm more used to 40k where everything is open. I guess the next question is.. By your experience, how easy would it be to guess whih unit would have it?

Von Wibble
29-09-2011, 19:47
The best way is simply to think "If I were using that army, where would I put the banner?"

Good places to put it are

Missile troops, so they can benefit from turn 1. No benefit to dragon princes here since they beat missile troops anyway, and it is an obvious blunder to shoot at dragon princes with such a unit. I suppose it helps vs stand and shoot.

Heavy cavalry, who have the strength to hurt regenerating monsters on charge. If dragon princes charge these they are favourite anyway.

BSB. Gives a huge amount of flexibility but does lose you the chance for a decent armour / ward save.

Other than that, the only thing to consider is that some armies are very limited in terms of what units are allowed a magic standard.

After that its pure guesswork! Really depends what is put in front of you.

Pyriel
29-09-2011, 19:59
dragon princes are thoroughly tested and definitely competitive. check out ulthuan.net for their uses. see, ironicaly, while they have so many gaps compared to other factions' heavy cavalry, its the combination of stat/cost that makes them one of the very, VERY few competitive cavalry choices in 8th ed.

for example, a HE army with a dragon princes unit is MUCH more competitive than a VC army with a bloodknights unit. see the thread about cavalry being dead: the ONLY posts that ppl delivered "solid" examples of definitely competitive cavalry setups were about dragon princes.

NightHawk45
29-09-2011, 20:11
With NO alterations to the list.

Lvl 4 life - forlaith's robes
- sigil (auto dispel, 4+ to destroy spell)
- crown of command


I know you said no alterations, but this part is illegal. It goes above the 100 point limit.

Anyway, ignoring that. Use your reavers as you would an eagle- Redirection. Separate his units so they aren't that close to each other to help each other out.

You want to get the white lions to fight a hellpit. They should make short work of it.

It doesn't seem like he has a lot of shooting/magic (though I may be mistaken). Make him come to you. This is where the reavers help out. You want to fight parts of his army not all of it.

Francis
30-10-2011, 11:40
Right, time to dig up the old Tactica thread. I recently converted three Island of Blood Griffon riders. The first I made into my GW wielding former WS prince now with a VoD and GW instead of WS and GP, and I will run this when I am feeling especially lucky or fluffy.

I am however wondering what to do with the two others (which sport lances). Right now I am thinking Noble on Eagle (Young Griffons) with HA, Lance, Enchanted Shield and Talisman of Prot, on the one and HA, Lance and Dragonscale shield on the other for a total of 163p each and a 2+ AS and 6+ ward. Combine this with the Lord on Griff and two other Eagles and I have my very own flying circus. Is there any chance this is going to fly? (Pun intended).

winterking07
02-11-2011, 18:05
Personally, I value better ward saves or re-rolls over a 2+ armor save--there are so many threats that will knock that 2+ down to 4+ or worse.

As far as combat effectiveness of your flying circus--you'll probably win combats, and concentrating your flyers on monsters/war machines/large models will help...but Steadfast, the bane of High Elves, is going to stall your flyers in almost any unit-combat. And lancers, without the charge, aren't going to have staying power.

One final thought--it might be worth it to spend a couple more points and make one of your eagle-riders more impervious to damage, so that it can stand in for your Prince in challenges (letting the griffon's thunderstomp and attacks hit enemy troops).

But--this would be a very different sort of HE list, and it would be fun to see it in action.

Kahadras
04-11-2011, 02:05
I've just started getting back into Fantasy and I decided to go down the High Elf route. I'd wanted to do a Chrace themed army (Korhil, a few units of archers, White Lions, Lion Chariots and Great Eagles) but I changed my mind after seeing the new Sea Guard models so went for a mix of Eataine, Saphery, Caldor and Tiranoc.

I think the Sea Guard are a pretty fair deal as they make a flexible unit that can work as a ranged unit or support of the combat elements in the army. OK Spearmen are cheaper and Archers have a better bow but I like the idea of having a unit that can swap roles depending on who I'm fighting.

The rest of the army I'm going to try to keep fairly standard. Archmage, BSB, Dragon Princes, Swordmasters, RBT's etc. One thing I was looking at were chariots. I've got a couple that are currently unassembled and I was looking at the possibility of getting a third. I'm interested to know how well they work and which chariot I should field.

At the present moment I'm leaning towards the basic chariot as they fit the background of my army better and are faster and cheaper than the Lion chariots (so I can fit three rather than two into my army or at least save points to put into other units if three might be a bit much in 2000 points). On the down side they don't hit anywhere near as hard as hard in combat and are slightly more vulnerable as well.

I'd certainly like advice regarding which I should take.

Kahadras

Francis
04-11-2011, 07:27
I have never fielded Lion Chariots but every time I field my three Tiranoc I get pleasantly surprised. Chariots are good. Not perhaps the best choice but rather good nonetheless. Use them to support your advancing Infantry with combo charges, or run all three together for 3d6 s5 impacts :).

Pulstar
04-11-2011, 12:49
I like the Lion Chariot, but don't compare them to the normal chariot but with Dragon Princes.

A Lion Chariot vs 5 DP is very close to a toss up. LC is 10 points less, has impact hits, causes fear, and keeps it's high STR attacks. The DP's have a better armor save and can march.

On the charge the LC gets: D6 STR 5 impact hits, 2 ASF ST6 attacks, 4 Str 5 attacks.
On the charge the DP get 10 ASF ST 5 attacks, 5 Str 3 attacks.

If you are running a life mage, you can use the lore ability to heal the chariot.

The normal chariot is more of a flanker. With bows and spears they are more like Reavers, but with more punch less movement.

Trains_Get_Robbed
16-11-2011, 07:57
Its been awhile :D

Been busy with school and work etc. . . lately (and a new game YuGiOh) however, my friend and store owner/operator at the local G.W has finally started up a fantasy league.

I think after I shake the rust off, I'll start making a video series on tactics and movement etc. . . We can talk about it on here -situations that happen at the average hobby store and build up from there; it also gives me a motivator to finish painting and converting my army XD.

As for the last topic at hand; I never take the BoEF on S.M or W.L in friendlies, as there are too many people in my meta that have 'dragonbane helm/gem' and characters are all too often what wrecks H.E units.

Instead, I give it to my Seaguard/Archers they can pop a few wounds on the HPA/Hydra or handgunners in tower and then allow my other units to clean up.