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Makoto00
14-07-2010, 23:51
Greetings,

I'm putting forth the question to you people, How badly did 8th edition hurt the Daemons of Chaos?

I'm looking to gain some insight into what they lost, and what they gained out of it.

xxRavenxx
15-07-2010, 00:00
Nearly every type of daemon lost something, be it STUPIDLY good magic, too many saving throws, too much brute power.

But... theyre still pretty damn good. when you started out twice as good as some other armies, losing 10% of your power doesnt matter :D

Green Feevah!
15-07-2010, 00:15
They didn't. They are still better than everyone else.

neXus6
15-07-2010, 00:21
While some aspects of the army took a slight knock...like nurgle daemons regen not mixing with wards any more, shooting getting stronger.

They got a lot of boosts though what with stomp and thunderstomp on a fair few of their units, the Magic lores getting rediculously powerful, being able to always max out your power dice even if you roll really low leaving your enemy with next to no dispel dice.

AlphariusOmegon20
15-07-2010, 07:25
Depends on which God you're talking about.

Khorne got a little boost from what I've seen, Slaanesh stayed about the same, Tzeentch took a little hit but not much, and Nurgle just got plain nerfed.

Vandelan
15-07-2010, 07:27
Slaaneshii daemons now benefit from the sexy ASF rules.

Take a Keeper of Secrets, its got ASF and I 10. Or take units of Daemonettes with a Herald of Slaanesh for more ASF goodness and loads of attacks.

Hicks
15-07-2010, 07:46
How badly did 8th edition hurt the Daemons of Chaos?

Not even remotely as bad as SSFIV hurt poor Makoto (sorry couldn't resist).

But yeah, in general Deamons are still rock hard. Slaaneshi daemons are even more terrifying and the SC Lord of Change is really one of the most powerfull unit in the game.

Ovassilias
15-07-2010, 07:49
Only plaguebearers where kinda hit with 8th. Still, u need flaming attacks to make them roll their 5+ ward, most of the times they roll 4+regen. Not a big deal.

Horrors are a bit hit as well with the random PD and the max pool.

Thats about it, everything else got better.

Bloodletters fighting with support attacks and hatred?better.
Daemonettes with ASF and I6 AND supporting attacks? way Better.
ALL greater Daemons got Thunderstomp AND 18" LD bubble to the army.Way better.
Flamers marching and shooting?...no comment
Seekers with M10 and I6 fighting with support attacks AND getting ranks...no comment.
-2LD BSB banner where steadfast is dominating battles?how good is that?
25pts to get a full lore......no comment.
30pts to get 1 extra PD.....
90-115pts herald spam that buffs your units, even naked these guys are way undercosted now....no comment.

So besides plaguebearers which they take 1 save now and horrors not spaming magic missiles every round everything got better in this army.
Also plastic is fantastic:D Now almost everything is plastic making easier for Daemon players to make any list they want.

Vandelan
15-07-2010, 07:51
Daemonettes with ASF and I6 AND supporting attacks? way Better.

I5 actually, but getting 2 attacks off of each model in the front ranks is a pretty big plus.

Ovassilias
15-07-2010, 07:55
I5 actually, but getting 2 attacks off of each model in the front ranks is a pretty big plus.

true,mixed M with I...still not a lot of I5 out there besides HE and DE.
Against everything else they always re-roll misses....and with M6 by round 2 they are in combat.

Forgot Siren Song and Siren Standard which makes them even better.
sick combos from 6 boobs god.

Vandelan
15-07-2010, 07:59
true,mixed M with I...still not a lot of I5 out there besides HE and DE.
Against everything else they always re-roll misses....and with M6 by round 2 they are in combat.

Forgot Siren Song and Siren Standard which makes them even better.
sick combos from 6 boobs god.

ASF gives a reroll against everything that has the same or worse initiative, so against Elves and Warriors they will be getting their reroll.

Don't forget that when fighting ASF Vs. ASF, both units strike at the same time and lose their ability to reroll misses in close combat from the ASF rule regardless as to the regular Initiative values on either unit.

Ovassilias
15-07-2010, 08:05
yes, they chew DE cause they always re-roll and have a lot of str3 AP attacks agains naked or 5+ armor units.
With HE they strike at the same time but still only T3 models with 5+ sv at best.

and daemons always get to roll their 5+ ward.

the points stand:D Daemons didnt got hit at all with 8th, on the contrary they got buffed imo.

*SQUEE*
15-07-2010, 08:16
Daemons are about the same. You will see different builds now is all.

The fact that other armies got better is what makes Daemons seem like they took a hit. They are not way above the other armies like the used to be, just a little better now.

shelfunit.
15-07-2010, 08:44
I don't see it that daemons have lost a great deal, obviously the ridiculous overwhelming magic builds have now gone, as has the single rank of fleshhounds breaking ranks and the auto-break rules being chopped, but thats about their only losses. More important, I think, is the fact that many armies have improved by a far greater amount, the magic missiles thrown by horrors are now more likely to be dispelled, and with the change to MR a number of units now have access to ward saves against them as well. The "step-up" rules and steadfast mean many of the armies that were auto-lose against daemons are now far less likely to run at (just) the sight of them, and will be able to strike back against the heavy hitters.

To sum up, daemons have very little change in overall power, but everyone else (maybe not WEs, sorry :( ) has gotten a lot better.

Makoto00
15-07-2010, 14:11
I don't see it that daemons have lost a great deal, obviously the ridiculous overwhelming magic builds have now gone, as has the single rank of fleshhounds breaking ranks and the auto-break rules being chopped, but thats about their only losses. More important, I think, is the fact that many armies have improved by a far greater amount, the magic missiles thrown by horrors are now more likely to be dispelled, and with the change to MR a number of units now have access to ward saves against them as well. The "step-up" rules and steadfast mean many of the armies that were auto-lose against daemons are now far less likely to run at (just) the sight of them, and will be able to strike back against the heavy hitters.

To sum up, daemons have very little change in overall power, but everyone else (maybe not WEs, sorry :( ) has gotten a lot better.

Gotya, right now I'm wavering between starting a Daemon or HE army. Both are really appealing.

Lowmans
15-07-2010, 16:30
I would imagine there'll be the odd daemon army going cheap as a certain type of player might jump ship!

AlphariusOmegon20
16-07-2010, 02:47
I would imagine there'll be the odd daemon army going cheap as a certain type of player might jump ship!

Don't know why they would be. A Tzeentch daemon list can abuse the hell out of the new magic rules with every herald (and possibly even big bird) taking master of sorcery and picking the lore of beasts.

4 - 7 Amber Spears a turn, anyone?

Zaustus
16-07-2010, 03:49
Tzeentch Heralds are crazy good under 8th. Master of Sorcery is nuts, seriously. Just in letting you have a lore available for every situation, it's amazing. I like the idea of a LoC with Life, and Heralds with Shadow and Metal. Good times.

Also, don't forget that Tzeentch Heralds can take a non-unique dispel scroll in Spell Breaker. Conveniently, it fits perfectly into the remaining points after taking Master of Sorcery.

Apart from those guys, Nurgle units got nerfed pretty hard, but most everything else is the same or better. I do think other armies got powered up a bit, but it's hard to say yet if they'll be able to handle a good Daemon list.

someone2040
16-07-2010, 03:52
Don't know why they would be. A Tzeentch daemon list can abuse the hell out of the new magic rules with every herald (and possibly even big bird) taking master of sorcery and picking the lore of beasts.

4 - 7 Amber Spears a turn, anyone?
Except you can only take the same spell once. If another wizard has that spell, it needs to be re-rolled, and if you can't take any spells from the lore, you can only take the signature spell.
So only 1 Amber Spear per turn.

Kal Taron
16-07-2010, 06:59
@someone2040
This is only the case if you roll your spells. Master of Sorcery gives you a whole lore and such effects are explicitly exempt from the "one time only" rule for spells.
Which changes it from incredibly good and cheap to ridiculously broken... which is apparently the right power level for daemons in some minds...

druchii
16-07-2010, 08:08
They actually took a decent hit:
Bloodletters got worse as they're t3, and opposing units will be able to fight back now (unless the BLs kill ALL the models in the unit, unlikely).

Demonettes got significantly worse, again, because of t3 and the ability of the opponent to ALWAYS allocate attacks to the character (since you can't kill off those fighting)-so your t3, 2w, 5++ hero will be dead in one or two rounds of combat (and there goes ASF).

PBs got significantly worse because they can no longer stack a 5++ with a 4+ regen, but they're still good. I'd say they're back to their "intended" value.

Horrors, not so sure yet, haven't used/played againt them yet. But the fact that they don't roll on the miscast chart is nice.

Most GDs got worse because they can no longer deny ranks, and killing 4-5 guys a turn won't do much but dent a unit (especially when the GD costs 450+pts and the unit he's beating on is about 250).

Steadfast is worse for demons, who were fairly expensive, so will only have more ranks than the opponent in later turns.

Magic got changed a bunch, and I've yet to use/encounter much of it as of late, so that's hard for me to judge.

A lot of the rare/big stuff gets pretty limited because of the new percentage system, so it pretty much prohibits stuff like Bloodcrushers from utilizing the new Monsterous Cav rules all that much.

Units with a high M value also got devalued with the new random charge length. Units like dwarves used to charge 6". Now their average is 10. Demons, with M5/6 (and some 10!) go on average 2-3 inches faster than dwarves, where they used to go almost double.

Demons definitely took a hit, a huge hit.

And before someone says it (because someone will, even though I've said this), this doesn't mean I think any of these changes are a bad thing. I've been eagerly awaiting the day when I could use my 40k demons as a fantasy army, and I'm pretty excited that it's happening. Armies like Lizardmen, Empire and Skaven are head and shoulders better than Demons.

Finally.

d

PeG
16-07-2010, 08:19
I have seen a few games with 8th including daemons and other armies and it seems to be more mixed outcomes then in 7th. This seems to be due to a couple of determining factors. The first one is magic that is certainly more varying. It can wipe out entire units /armies or do absolutely nothing with using the same list.

The second part is that different armies have become better at beating different oppnents. For example daemons seem to beating elite armies such as some WoC lists as easy as in 7th (unless magic changes everything) while they are having a much harder time against horde armies supported with shooting/magic (empire, marauder WoC, skaven etc). On the other hand Elite WoC have been eating hordes for breakfast in our store due to the fact that hordes cant really get sufficient numbers of kills due to the good AS.

DaemonReign
16-07-2010, 12:59
- How badly did Daemons take a hit in 8th?

Let me put it like this:

In 7th I had a 20k collection of Daemons (a 20k Standard Rules Roster).
In 8th I have a 14k Roster, and that's including the 30 new Plastic Horrors I preordered the other day.

Every other Army probably has the same issues. But still I'd say Daemons have gone down by say.. 25% in competativeness. :)

I for one enjoy a good challange!! And I will certainly enjoy painting two more thousands of Daemon Core units!

I need to be at 20k with this Roster. So that I can work on the rest of our armies.

Skitter-Squeek
16-07-2010, 17:23
I was hoping there would be more Brettonians are awesome cause Peasants are somewhat worth taking now threads :cool:.

Instead we get more Daemon threads complaining or whining about how they are still overpowered or got the nerf bat now. I say go play the game test a bunch of lists see what works and go from there. A lot more armies are able to deal with daemons on a level they weren't allowed to before and because of that the daemon players (not all of them) but a lot are probably not liking the fact they have to change up what was working. I for one like this change and because of it we will get to see different builds now instead of the PB lists of before. I am also stoked on the fact that pretty much every Army's build is going to look and play different now.


Toughen up, adapt, and stop worrying. Play the damn game and kill lots and lots of models:D

On a side note it is nice seeing the "How to" threads with tactics on how to beat certain armies as it helps when I go to GT's so let us get more of those ;)


Squeek

Sygerrik
16-07-2010, 18:37
Daemons went from being by far the most powerful army to being by a decent amount the most powerful army. They're still broken and still more powerful than everyone else but they're not quite as bad as they used to be. Still very very bad.

Arnizipal
16-07-2010, 20:27
I had clear up quite a mess in this thread.
The sweeping generalisations and insults stop now!

If I have to step in again this thread will be removed.

Arnizipal,

++ The Warseer Moderation Team ++

Walls
16-07-2010, 22:14
Wow, did posts really get deleted because of fairly fiery opinions? If you are deleting for generalizations and insults, I strongly suggest deleting every thread on the forum and starting all over. Green Feevah's posts were HARDLY the most flaming I've seen.

Obvious compensation happening.

DaemonReign
16-07-2010, 22:55
@someone2040
This is only the case if you roll your spells. Master of Sorcery gives you a whole lore and such effects are explicitly exempt from the "one time only" rule for spells.
Which changes it from incredibly good and cheap to ridiculously broken... which is apparently the right power level for daemons in some minds...

Master of Sorcery is a bit cheap - not as cheap as the Ring of Hotek though.

Master of Sorcery could go at 50, Hotek still good at 100. EDIT: That's to much.. Hotek for 50 pts and Master of Sorcery at 30 so that excludes Another 25 point gift.

And Tzeentch Heralds have the Staff of Change - at 50 points, I'm not sure it's worth half of that.. Could be usefull if you manage a magical buff to the Herald's CC stats, but it's a long shot I never bothered trying.

There are filthy items in all Lists that I have any experience with, we all learn how to pick them out. I think Master of Sorcery is a very correct Gift fluffwise for Tzeentch Daemons.

pointyteeth
16-07-2010, 23:11
Daemons can't have taken that big a hit it people still get this fired up about them :D Personally I think a bit of a hit takes daemons down to a semi reasonable top tier army instead of a top of the top tier army.

Walls
16-07-2010, 23:32
Daemons didn't get hit at all. Everyone got a little bit better. Daemons are still EASILY the most abusable army in GW existence. The book is a complete sham.

fubukii
16-07-2010, 23:49
DOc are still a good army, you just have to not run any of their bad units

Good units
HOT, HOK ,KOS, KAIRoS, letters, Fiends, flamers, hounds, masque,skulltaker

Ok units
thrister, loc, daemonettes, horrors

Crap units
All nurgle stuff, furies, seekers, daemon princes, screamers, blood crushers


stick with the good units and you can make a pretty decent list.

daemons arent on par with empire, skaven, and dwarves but still pretty good overal

Walls
17-07-2010, 00:33
You're kidding, right?

Tae
17-07-2010, 00:51
The majority of the DoC 'hit' came in terms of the reduced effectiveness of the DoC tournament list (i.e. Thirster, 3 flying heralds of Tzeentch, 3 x 10 horrors, doggies and flamers).

Other than that and the massive Nurgle bash, they're pretty much as they were in terms of power rankings.

DaemonReign
17-07-2010, 01:21
Bloodletters got worse as they're t3, and opposing units will be able to fight back now (unless the BLs kill ALL the models in the unit, unlikely).


Bloodletters should have T4 at 16 points.


Demonettes got significantly worse, again, because of t3 and the ability of the opponent to ALWAYS allocate attacks to the character (since you can't kill off those fighting)-so your t3, 2w, 5++ hero will be dead in one or two rounds of combat (and there goes ASF).

Also very true. For a while there I was actually thinking they got better. Silly me. In CC you need to buy an item at 50 points (Armed Monstrosity for horde-enemies and etherblade for armour) - and hope you kill enough models around the Herald for him not to die on the counter. That's all you get to spend on gifts.


PBs got significantly worse because they can no longer stack a 5++ with a 4+ regen, but they're still good. I'd say they're back to their "intended" value.

I would concider fielding them at 10 points/model.


Most GDs got worse because they can no longer deny ranks, and killing 4-5 guys a turn won't do much but dent a unit (especially when the GD costs 450+pts and the unit he's beating on is about 250).

True. But GDs ought to kill alot more than 4-5 guys - concider the Thirster with Awesome Strength and Immortal Fury - first he re-rolls his 7 ws10 attacks, wounds on 2 plus generally, saves will be uncommon - AFTER a couple of guys try to kill him (he might have Armour of Khorne to) he makes a final d6 of S10 hits. It's more like he will kill 7-10 guys in general. That's a "horderank" per round.

The Keeper with Soul Eater will be a tough kill if you don't splat it before CC.

Unclean one and LoC instead got a bit worse.

Thirster and Keeper ought to be worth 500 pts now, opposite goes for the other two.



A lot of the rare/big stuff gets pretty limited because of the new percentage system, so it pretty much prohibits stuff like Bloodcrushers from utilizing the new Monsterous Cav rules all that much.

Big deal. 18 Bloodcrushers is nearly 1500 points with a Herald. I mean, it's not like I'm not gonna get the models to actually be able to field this unit - but I have no illusions about it being a really bad spending of points in every and all ways. Still, something cool for those rare Really big battles..


Units with a high M value also got devalued with the new random charge length. Units like dwarves used to charge 6". Now their average is 10. Demons, with M5/6 (and some 10!) go on average 2-3 inches faster than dwarves, where they used to go almost double.

Again, all true. I think the Dwarves deserve this "buff" though. I like the new movement rules but they are bad for everything with above average movement.

Speaking of Dwarves, their slayers will be able to challenge in all eternity. A big Slayer unit could easily tigh down a GD for an entire game.


Lizardmen, Empire and Skaven are head and shoulders better than Demons.

Sounds plausible. And I'm as excited as you about 8th Edition, over-all I think it's a huge leap forward for the game. Daemons nerfed or not.
[/QUOTE]

fubukii
17-07-2010, 02:14
You're kidding, right?


no not at all in fact im quite serious

DaemonReign
17-07-2010, 02:37
DOc are still a good army, you just have to not run any of their bad units

Good units
HOT, HOK ,KOS, KAIRoS, letters, Fiends, flamers, hounds, masque,skulltaker

Ok units
thrister, loc, daemonettes, horrors

Crap units
All nurgle stuff, furies, seekers, daemon princes, screamers, blood crushers


stick with the good units and you can make a pretty decent list.

daemons arent on par with empire, skaven, and dwarves but still pretty good overal

I've had greater use for Seekers than I have with Fiends - so I would swap places of those two, otherwise I find these assertions very convincing.

We're gonna play 3000k Daemons vs Dwarves in a few hours.

fubukii
17-07-2010, 02:55
seekers really? I feel they are a bit too fragile in the new rule set. with low str and poor protection i feel they would die to most non 1 atk str 3 units even if they flank,i guess they could be good at killing warmachines and such

Single fiends are very awesome, great redirectors/mage hunters/ WM hunters.

Walls
17-07-2010, 03:13
You really should be taking into consideration that your units NEVER break from combat, EVEN WHEN THEY LOSE. NOTHING in your army should be below 12 pts, even your "nerfed" plaguebearers. If PB should be 8 pts, then my lowly state troops should be 2.

You can take a stubborn banner to all but negate losing models after a lost combat.

Your 12 pt models are better then any other 12 pt model in the game.

Daemons did not get nerfed in ANY WAY AT ALL. Nothing at all can be considered a nerf. A slight rebalancing in ONE spot (no more PB regen) but otherwise they're the same damned book. THe more and more I read, the more I agree with Green Feevah's unfairly deleted post.

fubukii
17-07-2010, 03:27
You really should be taking into consideration that your units NEVER break from combat, EVEN WHEN THEY LOSE. NOTHING in your army should be below 12 pts, even your "nerfed" plaguebearers. If PB should be 8 pts, then my lowly state troops should be 2.

You can take a stubborn banner to all but negate losing models after a lost combat.

Your 12 pt models are better then any other 12 pt model in the game.

Daemons did not get nerfed in ANY WAY AT ALL. Nothing at all can be considered a nerf. A slight rebalancing in ONE spot (no more PB regen) but otherwise they're the same damned book. THe more and more I read, the more I agree with Green Feevah's unfairly deleted post.

fear got toned down.
Every army is basically stubborn vs daemons and basically unbreakable if near a bsb or general (And we have to spend 125 pts on a magic banner on already probably semi pricey character to gain access to being stubborn which every other army in the game gets for free just by having more ranks, you will out rank daemons due to their high cost)
In addition having this roughly 300 pt bsb uses half of our hero allotment and quite frankly can just be killed.
the step up rule hurts daemons as they can no longer wipe out the rank and are vunerable to return attacks with thier t3 5++.
greater daemons are now worse. they now get thunderstomp which is cool, but once again no more breaking ranks, everything vs them is stubborn and gets return attacks. In addition armies shooting have gotten alot better and with tlos and no guessing on artillery Greater daemons are much easier to kill.


Daemons also do not have the ability to flee, which is a big loss tactically.

ill take stubborn 8/9/10 with a reroll any day over instability.

DaemonReign
17-07-2010, 03:35
seekers really? I feel they are a bit too fragile in the new rule set. with low str and poor protection i feel they would die to most non 1 atk str 3 units even if they flank,i guess they could be good at killing warmachines and such

Single fiends are very awesome, great redirectors/mage hunters/ WM hunters.

This is the army I intend on trying out, I was thinking All Tzeentch at first but I'm not a big fan of magic really so I wanted the other phases in my first 8th Ed battle..

Core:
45 Bloodletters, FullCom
Icon of Endless War
26 Plaguebearers of Nurgle, Full Com
Standard of Seeping Decay
10 Furies

Special:
8 Seekers, FullCom
Siren Standard
6 FleshHounds

Rare:
2 x 2 Fiends.

Lord:
Thirster, AwesomeStrength, Immortal Fury

Herald:
of Nurgle, Palanquin, BSB, Mg LvL, Noxious Vapours, Nurgle's Rott

of Tzeentch, on Disc, Master of Sorcery, Irridescant Corona

of Khorne, Armour of Khorne, Firestorm Blade

2999 points.

DaemonReign
17-07-2010, 03:43
fear got toned down.
Every army is basically stubborn vs daemons and basically unbreakable if near a bsb or general (And we have to spend 125 pts on a magic banner on already probably semi pricey character to gain access to being stubborn which every other army in the game gets for free just by having more ranks, you will out rank daemons due to their high cost)
In addition having this roughly 300 pt bsb uses half of our hero allotment and quite frankly can just be killed.
the step up rule hurts daemons as they can no longer wipe out the rank and are vunerable to return attacks with thier t3 5++.
greater daemons are now worse. they now get thunderstomp which is cool, but once again no more breaking ranks, everything vs them is stubborn and gets return attacks. In addition armies shooting have gotten alot better and with tlos and no guessing on artillery Greater daemons are much easier to kill.


Daemons also do not have the ability to flee, which is a big loss tactically.

ill take stubborn 8/9/10 with a reroll any day over instability.

Yeah. I agree. This I recognize as something being said by someone who's played Daemons alot.

That's why I am baffled when people say Daemon Ld should be lower, I mean, here I was thinking it was too low.

In 8th Ed breaking for combat isn't that bad either, you're not even instakilled if fleeing into enemy units etc - whatever unit that Daemons actually Break in 8th is ultimately comming back. Wheras Daemons still just go *poff*.

Walls
17-07-2010, 06:20
So basically the complaint is your underpriced units are all "easier to kill" so should drastically go down in price? By your argument, wouldn't your undercosted units start being about the right price?

Let me guess... you play daemons.

Coldblood666
17-07-2010, 06:34
I just played a battle today with Daemons against Orcs. 1500pt battle. I wiped the Orc army off the board in 5 turns and only lost a unit of 10 Daemonetts and my Herald of Tzeentch (which was because I miscasted). Big units of Bloodletters is where its at. I had 24 Bloodletters hack apart a unit of Black Orcs that were led by a Orc general and a Battle Standard bearer. Flamers are also pretty ridiculous of course. I also had a lone Fiend kill off an entire unit of Wolf Riders without taking a single wound. I used a unit of 10 Daemonetts to kill off a 20 strong unit of Night Goblins and take a Giant down to half wounds before they died. There is nothing wrong with Daemons in 8th edition.

Lowmans
17-07-2010, 08:03
Have to play more games to see for sure.... However, I do think Daemons have been weakened slightly.
Other armies with access to decent and reasonably priced blocks got better as did war machines......

Ummmm so what!?

Daemons haven't been 'nerfed' at all - they're still near the top of the tree, how near time will tell.

Whether you're a Daemon player or not a bit of thought should tell you this is a good thing for the game!

Don't worry about your power level any more - play games!

druchii
17-07-2010, 09:51
Bloodletters should have T4 at 16 points.



Also very true. For a while there I was actually thinking they got better. Silly me. In CC you need to buy an item at 50 points (Armed Monstrosity for horde-enemies and etherblade for armour) - and hope you kill enough models around the Herald for him not to die on the counter. That's all you get to spend on gifts.



I would concider fielding them at 10 points/model.



True. But GDs ought to kill alot more than 4-5 guys - concider the Thirster with Awesome Strength and Immortal Fury - first he re-rolls his 7 ws10 attacks, wounds on 2 plus generally, saves will be uncommon - AFTER a couple of guys try to kill him (he might have Armour of Khorne to) he makes a final d6 of S10 hits. It's more like he will kill 7-10 guys in general. That's a "horderank" per round.

The Keeper with Soul Eater will be a tough kill if you don't splat it before CC.

Unclean one and LoC instead got a bit worse.

Thirster and Keeper ought to be worth 500 pts now, opposite goes for the other two.



Big deal. 18 Bloodcrushers is nearly 1500 points with a Herald. I mean, it's not like I'm not gonna get the models to actually be able to field this unit - but I have no illusions about it being a really bad spending of points in every and all ways. Still, something cool for those rare Really big battles..



Again, all true. I think the Dwarves deserve this "buff" though. I like the new movement rules but they are bad for everything with above average movement.

Speaking of Dwarves, their slayers will be able to challenge in all eternity. A big Slayer unit could easily tigh down a GD for an entire game.



Sounds plausible. And I'm as excited as you about 8th Edition, over-all I think it's a huge leap forward for the game. Daemons nerfed or not.
[/QUOTE]

Couple of things:
GWs new "tournament standard" is 2k pts. So that means we'll be limited to running 500pts worth of lords. Yup. That means no NASTY Bloodthirster killing-machines of doom anymore. You get 50ish pts to play with and you're done.

Remember you'll almost never be able to kill off all guys in BTB with the model/hero so they'll essentially always be getting attacks dumped into them, so you'll be wasting points on something like many armed monstrosity. Honestly, I'll be sticking my slaaneshi heralds on the corner of the unit and hope for the best.

Screw dwarves. They didn't need a buff (they've always been one of the nastiest armies in the game) but rather a different play style. I'm glad they got it, but don't pretend they needed anything else.

And like I said about the BL and the rest of the GDs. Cool they're big and nasty. Have fun killing my 200pt unit for the rest of the game. Really not a sound investment on their points. The "real" place we're going to see them shine is against large blocks of elite infantry, like Saurus, Chaos warriors, Greatswords and on. Who cares if they're tough and have nice armor? Big dude chewing them up will put a dent in your opponent's happiness.

I'm more worried about large units of things like NGs, Skaven Slaves, Empire troopers, even bretonnian peasants and the like, with good Ld (through whatever means), backed up by a BSB. Stubborn on base LD is always amazing, and will "waste" the big guys' potential.


I just played a battle today with Daemons against Orcs. 1500pt battle. I wiped the Orc army off the board in 5 turns and only lost a unit of 10 Daemonetts and my Herald of Tzeentch (which was because I miscasted). Big units of Bloodletters is where its at. I had 24 Bloodletters hack apart a unit of Black Orcs that were led by a Orc general and a Battle Standard bearer. Flamers are also pretty ridiculous of course. I also had a lone Fiend kill off an entire unit of Wolf Riders without taking a single wound. I used a unit of 10 Daemonetts to kill off a 20 strong unit of Night Goblins and take a Giant down to half wounds before they died. There is nothing wrong with Daemons in 8th edition.

You're lucky as hell then.

I don't see how a unit of BLs would kill black orks. At all. Two choppas, S5 will decimate the BLs on the first turn, and then those boyz will start beating the face off your t3 guys. If I had my OnG book here I'd tell you exactly how many Bls they'd kill a turn...

How big were the wolf riders? "an entire unit" is incredibly misleading, because a single fiend should be able to kill off a few wolfies, he's more expensive than they are!

10 Demonettes killed 20 NGs? You're a lucky man.

Anecdotal Battle Reports like this are pretty useless in determining whether or not armies got buffed or not. It seems like your opponent made some pretty terrible moves (like tough, high armored infantry into s5 guys with KB) and you beat the odds on more than a fair shake of things.

I think it's nice that we're just going to see different sorts of armies rise in power (or some stay there, in the case of Lizardmen), and that a lot of armies got buoyed from the nether regions of "terrible army" to "competitive" (poor poor Wood Elves...have fun pretending to be High Elves!), but am thoroughly disappointed at Steadfast.

d

fubukii
17-07-2010, 10:08
So basically the complaint is your underpriced units are all "easier to kill" so should drastically go down in price? By your argument, wouldn't your undercosted units start being about the right price?

Let me guess... you play daemons.

i actually play/have played several armies during including the following ( see below). I think this gives me a much better and neutral point of view on the issue as you and many others have grown a large distaste for daemons in 7th edition and still cling to it. I have played vs and against daemons in plenty of tournaments, so i am very familiar with them.

Skaven (10kpts), DE (3k), beasts, woc, LM, DOC.

I will agree certain units in the daemon book are undercosted in the 7th edition rule set. In 8th Id say a majority of the DOC units are not worth taking. ( see my list where i listed over half the army book is crap) Sure the old power units, such as flesh hounds and flamers are still good in 8th but they are not the same level of power you seem to have engraved your mind. I think alot of people are still sore about 7th edition and actually fail to realize how much 8th edition actually effected daemons.

One other thing to note is bsbs got alot better for every army but daemons. Rerolling all ld test is a huge boost to armies who are not ITP, thus really making the whole ITP rule more of a set back then a benefit. Since you feel every doc unit is undercosted i wil break down some.

Horrors - priced about right.
letters priced about right, given their statline and weak toughess,
nettes possibly a little over priced too fragile low with low str. ASF while gaining rerolls to hit is not as huge a benefit as it used to be.
plague bearers not even worth taking for their cost.
Greater daemons may need a small stat boost to bring them in line with the new edition as do dragons i feel. the keeper is still very good due to some nice boosts and kairos is powerful as ever.
Daemon princes - horribly overcosted.
HOS - extremely fragile for point cost. quite easily to kill with most units, especially ws 4+ units
HOK - good could be a bit more points, but did take a hit with armor cap, and no more LOS on juggernaut. makes him alot more balanced.
HOT - could be a few more points, but not really unbalanced in new edition. all army book lores are a little underpowered IMO compared to the new lores, luckily master of sorcery helps out here keeping these a good choice.
HON - see plague bearers. although some of his gifts got useful, such as stream of corruption.
Furies - terrible. Need a ld boost bad, not worth taking
nurglings - see plaguebearers
Screamers - see plaguebearers
hounds - pretty good slightly undercosted in 7th about right in 8th edition. Now effected by most magic spells. Vunerable to massed low strength attacks, compared to other knight equivalents, wait whats is 8th edition about?
Seekers - all fragile cav took a good sized hit. would not say they are even remotely overcosted. Charge range got hurt alot as well but more of a issue for all cav.
Blood crushers - overcosted, too fragile for 70pts
flamers - undercosted and got a few decent buffs with march and shoot.
Fiends - became worth their cost
beasts - see bearers.

SO now breaking it down we have a total of
4 maybe 5 undercosted units ( HOT, HOK, flamers, hounds,)
mostly decently costed units ( letters and the rest)
and the remaining are not even worth looking it.

Most good daemon lists in this edition will look like this
KOS/kairos
blood letters fill core.
mix of HOT/HOK one of which is a bsb with -2 lb banner which is a must if you want a enemy to actually fail a stubborn/fear check
masque
Hounds
Flamers.
fiends.

and even then thats the best the DOC book as too offer while i said the list is not to bad off, certain armies such as Empire, Skaven and dwarves are a notch ahead, which is my point. Are daemons a bad army, no not at all i never claimed such a thing. Did they take a hit? Absolutely

Soul of Iron
17-07-2010, 14:35
Have people really looked at the DP this edition? I keep seeing people say they are crap.

Demon Prince
Etherblade
Swiftness
375 points

Here you have a monster with I7 and ASF. He gets that sexy new super hatred and each hit allows no armor saves. Oh, and before anyone gets to strike back, he thunderstomps at I7 and that grants no armor saves.

How is this crap?

fubukii
17-07-2010, 14:50
because the second anything attacks him or shoots at him he will die a swift and horrible death for roughly 400 pts. 4 wounds is a bit low for a 400 pt model dont you think? Also only toughness 5. Str 4 troops that he will fight wound him back on 5s and probably hit him on 4s unless they ws3.

Soul of Iron
17-07-2010, 15:10
I guess I have a use for him that you don't. I play a full Tzeentch horde with magic galore and shooting out the wazoo. A T5 monster that I can heal that will devourer Cav units who's not my general is a bargain for me.

Walls
17-07-2010, 15:29
Daemon players should hide under a table so the sky doesn't crush their skull as it plummets to earth. Really, you guys might as well throw your armies in the trash. You don't win in less then 3 turns anymore, so your army is complete garbage. Time to Squat them!

Wintertide
17-07-2010, 15:43
Daemon players should hide under a table so the sky doesn't crush their skull as it plummets to earth. Really, you guys might as well throw your armies in the trash. You don't win in less then 3 turns anymore, so your army is complete garbage. Time to Squat them!

Completely agree - a better title for this thread would have been "How well did Daemons get balanced in 8th?" The answer is not by much.

Soul of Iron
17-07-2010, 18:08
Daemon players should hide under a table so the sky doesn't crush their skull as it plummets to earth. Really, you guys might as well throw your armies in the trash. You don't win in less then 3 turns anymore, so your army is complete garbage. Time to Squat them!

Haters gonna hate. :D

Ridarsin
17-07-2010, 19:08
Daemon players should hide under a table so the sky doesn't crush their skull as it plummets to earth. Really, you guys might as well throw your armies in the trash. You don't win in less then 3 turns anymore, so your army is complete garbage. Time to Squat them!

Please leave the message boards if you are going to post things like this.

@fubukii - How aren't Plague Bearers not worth taking. They are almost the same stat line of my Grave Guard (aside from Init). A 4+ regeneration is much better than 4+ armor & 6+ ward.

fubukii
17-07-2010, 19:08
I guess I have a use for him that you don't. I play a full Tzeentch horde with magic galore and shooting out the wazoo. A T5 monster that I can heal that will devourer Cav units who's not my general is a bargain for me.


Why not use a keeper of secrets? I guess if you want to full stay full tzeentch is a legit reason, but the keeper is better literally in every way but for a small bit more in cost even without gifts.

i also dont think armies will field that much cav anymore.

Vegeta365
17-07-2010, 19:13
Don't know why they would be. A Tzeentch daemon list can abuse the hell out of the new magic rules with every herald (and possibly even big bird) taking master of sorcery and picking the lore of beasts.

4 - 7 Amber Spears a turn, anyone?

Except you will not have enough power dice to cast that. Particularly with heralds, you are probably chucking 3 dice at the 9+ amber spear. You may get to throw three of them a turn. But depending on army/points etc youre opponent can quite happily dispell them.

I realy am thinking that you will start to see people just using one power a turn and throwing all their dice at it to get it off. If youre opponent has a level 4 wizard, it is difficult to get off multiple spells. You may get one off but others are dispelled. Therefore aren't you better off getting one more powerfull spell cast?

More games will show how things start to pan out at competitive play, but with an average 7 power dice and an opponent having say 4 dispell dice, I cant realy see this not going that way a bit. Do I throw 4 dice at one spell and three at another and see my opponent dispell one power and one go through or do I make sure I get off my most powerfull spell?

Also how do people think they will see bloodletters rank up now that a few weeks of gaming have passed by? 7 wide gets a lot more hits in. 5 means you can have a lot more ranks and potentially stop steadfast. Between 2000pts and 3000pts what size unit will be most used? 25?

Thoughts?

fubukii
17-07-2010, 19:34
Except you will not have enough power dice to cast that. Particularly with heralds, you are probably chucking 3 dice at the 9+ amber spear. You may get to throw three of them a turn. But depending on army/points etc youre opponent can quite happily dispell them.

I realy am thinking that you will start to see people just using one power a turn and throwing all their dice at it to get it off. If youre opponent has a level 4 wizard, it is difficult to get off multiple spells. You may get one off but others are dispelled. Therefore aren't you better off getting one more powerfull spell cast?

More games will show how things start to pan out at competitive play, but with an average 7 power dice and an opponent having say 4 dispell dice, I cant realy see this not going that way a bit. Do I throw 4 dice at one spell and three at another and see my opponent dispell one power and one go through or do I make sure I get off my most powerfull spell?

Thoughts?

with level 2s you most certainly need more dice to cast to get through the enemy dispel bonus. So you wont see much of this Spell spaming as stated. ALthough with a level 4 like kairos or a LOC with twin hads with +6 to cast i would 2-3 dice most things which should be enough to get some spells through.

Vegeta365
17-07-2010, 19:55
Thats fine at 2500pts + and even then I can only see two spells going off max. Certainly boosting units toughness with life will not be as easy as people seem to think. It may be easy to cast, but it is also easy to dispell!

Then the HOT can become redundant with Kairos. Having a second spell caster incase of failed dispell etc is handy and having spellbreaker is an obvious benefit, but it is a high cost model and we need that BSB now. The bloodletters need their own herald so fitting this in now is tricky if you still take HOT. It is a balancing act.

I kind of liked the idea of turning multiple HOT into red dragons (one a turn) and see if youre opponent can change them back each turn or get eaten. But unsure if this is as sensible as casting hard hitting powers.

Gammal
17-07-2010, 20:00
Well, yeah, they took a bit of a hit, but I would reckon they will still be very viable, and not OP ;)

badguyshaveallthefun
17-07-2010, 22:48
I like the changes...mostly.
I played mono-tzeentch before, but I only took a LoC and one herald (on a chariot). I love the magic phase.
I played my first game of 8th last night and I learned that you really can't rely on magic anymore. For the first three turns I could't roll higher than a 5 for my dice, and one of those was usually a 1.
My mono-tzeentch is about to get some sprinkles of khorne and slaanesh.
@ Daemonreign - I know that you really want T4 bloodletters, but I really see T3 as a real balancer for bloodletters. I'm okay with bloodletters the way they are, I don't see any need to change them. They might not be as tough as a plaguebearer, but they sure hit hard. Bloodcrushers on the other hand should get T4, then they'd probably be worth their exorbitant price tag. (not that it keeps me from playing them anyway, they're too cool not to use) ;)

Sygerrik
18-07-2010, 01:38
Completely agree - a better title for this thread would have been "How well did Daemons get balanced in 8th?" The answer is not by much.

The idea that people are agitating for T4 Bloodletters is, to me, insane. Daemons, if they did take a nerf this edition (I'm not confident they did) are STILL more powerful than every other army book, bar none. Especially since their closest competitor, DE, took a fairly significant nerf to their most broken tactic.

Daemons need some changes, but every single change should be a negative one (weakening the army) until it becomes balanced. Then we can hear some complaints. Until then, people who complain that Daemons need buffs, especially to characters, Core units and Flamers/Flesh Hounds, automatically get filed in my personal "do not pay attention to this person" file.

fubukii
18-07-2010, 02:24
actually the best 3 armies in 8th edtion are skaven, empire and dwarves daemons are not in the same league as these 3.

People really need to realize the 7th edition power armies are not the top of the spectrum of power anymore and get with the future :)

Walls
18-07-2010, 02:55
Daemon players need to quit kidding themselves. Dwarves didn't go from bottom tier to top tier in one edition. Again, don't kid yourself. Dwarves are a good high mid tier army, as are Empire now.

Daemons just aren't LEAGUES past everyone anymore... just 1 league now.

fubukii
18-07-2010, 03:15
Daemon players need to quit kidding themselves. Dwarves didn't go from bottom tier to top tier in one edition. Again, don't kid yourself. Dwarves are a good high mid tier army, as are Empire now.

Daemons just aren't LEAGUES past everyone anymore... just 1 league now.

i think you need to actually play games of 8th edition :P

Almost every change in the new rule set helps dwarves. Lets go down a list of things since you seem to under estimate them

Dwarves used to have trouble because of being charged, now they charge much further in fact about the same as any other unit of infantry. they can charge up too 15 inches on average 10 inches.
Artillery no longer needs guesses making it much more accurate. Str 5 stone throwers are amazing.
Dwarf cannons now do d6 wounds
Low init countered by step up attack.
Large access to great weapons for high str and high toughess troops that are fairly inexpensive.
Excellent missle units.
+2 dispel rolls.
Able to mass Dispel dice with runesmiths/lords giving them a edge.
Dwarf lords main weakness of being unable to get into fights is lessened greatly now people will actually have to fight the dwarf lords/heroes.
Can still have more then 1 dispel scroll.

Empire are also a amazing army, for plenty of reasons. Amazing cheap infantry, lots of warmachines (mortars, cannons, helstorms) able to fit it all in one list (hordes, magic, shooting, Warrior priests for dd) Denying that empire are not a top tier army is crazy. you must be stuck in a 7th edition mind set.

id say the list looks like this power wise

top
SKaven, dwarves , Empire
Upper middle
DOC, LM, DE, WOC, HE
i dont feel like ranking the other tiers this is good enough.

daemons are still a good army you just have to stick to a few different units as alot of the book got hit hard, but the units that are good are still worth taking. I would not consider them top top tier like people claim, thats a 7th edition mind set. honestly i dont think daemons could beat my skaven in 8th without some good luck

Walls
18-07-2010, 03:39
Uh... they do everything they did last edition except don't attack first on the charge. EVERYONE'S shooting is better. EVERYONE gets step up. That automatically nullifies those bonuses. They're always attacking last, GW or not. Inexpensive troops? This coming from a player who has 12pt troops that never break, cause fear, etc?

fubukii
18-07-2010, 03:51
Uh... they do everything they did last edition except don't attack first on the charge. EVERYONE'S shooting is better. EVERYONE gets step up. That automatically nullifies those bonuses. They're always attacking last, GW or not. Inexpensive troops? This coming from a player who has 12pt troops that never break, cause fear, etc?

it does not step up is much better for cheaper units or units that did not charge before.
Ever hear of steadfast? Steadfast + bsb = never break pretty much. Oh and you also get the option to flee which is a huge advantage tactically.
Daemons can not flee
Daemons will not benefit from steadfast almost ever at 12 pts per model at the cheapest.
- everyones shooting is better but DOC which stayed the same
- 12 pt t3 models get hurt alot by shooting
- Step up hurts daemons more then other armies who have cheaper troops 12 pt models with t3 and a 5+ save are pretty fragile. for the most part.
- fear got a nerf, and with the BSB boost of rerolling all ld checks thats a huge boost for everyone but daemons.
- large monsters are alot more vunerable now which hurts daemons. (TLOS, better shooting, no more guessing ranges, steadfast step up etc)

these are some of the things. if you wish to list legit reason of why daemons are so OP in your opinion i would be grateful so far you listed things that arent very important in 8th

Sygerrik
18-07-2010, 05:35
Is there really someone in this thread claiming Empire are more powerful than Daemons in 8e? Really?!

Oh Warseer. Just when I think we've reached the bottom of the barrel, another barrel is discovered below.

fubukii
18-07-2010, 06:30
Is there really someone in this thread claiming Empire are more powerful than Daemons in 8e? Really?!

Oh Warseer. Just when I think we've reached the bottom of the barrel, another barrel is discovered below.


Oh warseer when people can be ignorant and ignore any facts/statements and cling old to old grudges with no actual proof, or play testing or legit reason.

Empire are actually quite a powerful army and a great counter to daemons how you do not realize this is beyond me ^.^. and in 8th edition empire are one of the best armies. Empire have every tool to give DOC nightmares.

TLOS + no guess range + cannons = dead 600 pt lord choices.
Detachment rules + dirt cheap str 4 infantry are excellent at killing daemonic infantry.
Warrior priests give extra dispel dice making daemon magic harder to cast.
empire characters are dirt cheap, meaning you can have a lvl 4, and a fighting general fairly easily.
- mortars are good vs any ranked unit.
- VHS is the perfect counter to any HOK.

I mean seriously think about it, if not proxy the armies and try it out.

Please enlighten me on too what units make DOC so overpowered. Hounds and flamers are great dont get me wrong but in 8th edition they will not win you games anymore.

Asmodai48
18-07-2010, 06:37
Empire maybe top tier, dwarfs wont be. Demons not sure we'll see soon enough, VC lost much more.

R-Love
18-07-2010, 06:39
Bloodcrushers on the other hand should get T4, then they'd probably be worth their exorbitant price tag. (not that it keeps me from playing them anyway, they're too cool not to use) ;)

Bloodcrushers are already T4 :shifty:

Lord Inquisitor
18-07-2010, 06:58
I was of the opinion while listening to rumours that daemons would remain extremely powerful. However, having played a bit, I feel that Step Up hugely negatively affects daemons Much more than I expected. 12 point infantry with only T3 and a 5+ save (albeit ward) can't match up to just about any other infantry, attrition gets them.

I don't know that daemons have been nerfed but certainly their huge power advantage has gone. I play mono-slaanesh so my view is somewhat polarised but I didn't realize quite how much their ferocious abilities relied on wiping out the fighting rank. Even bloodthirsters have cause to fear infantry with great weapons.

Asmodai48
18-07-2010, 07:16
You could say the same about he/de units? Only their save isnt ward.

fubukii
18-07-2010, 07:38
basic DE are 6/7 pts and a basic HE is 9, quite different then 12 id say :)

Sygerrik
18-07-2010, 07:42
I have played about a half-dozen games against Empire in 8th and four against Daemons. My win/loss record is mixed, but I have to say Daemons gave me a lot more trouble. Their core infantry may be expensive, but it is so. freaking. powerful. Huge bloodletter blocks are death incarnate, since their fragility doesn't matter-- they simply kill far more of you than you kill of them. The all-around ward saves are as nasty as ever, and you can't panic them-- the chief weakness of many horde armies is their vulnerability to panic with the new rules. Flamers are as grotesquely undercosted as ever. Flesh Hounds are no longer the best unit choice in the game but are still in the top five-- nothing can match them for hunting skirmishers/war machines/small shooty blocks. Greater Daemons still wreak more havoc than anything else of equivalent points value. And having access to entire BRB lores is far better than it used to be-- oh look, guess what Daemons can do. On every Herald.

Empire got a lot better. Saying that they are better than Daemons, or Daemons are anything but the top spot still, simply tells me you haven't played very much 8th.

fubukii
18-07-2010, 07:46
what army do you play would be a good start? And its pretty tough to pannic things now with the new bsb rules. granted units not near the bsb have a chance to be paniced actually.

sholcomb
18-07-2010, 07:59
I have played both Daemons and Empire for a while now, and I think in 8th, Empire is way better. I'm Not sure if Dwarfs are top tier or simply upper tier, but they are also very good. I'm not sure about Skaven as their reliance on many small units (weapons teams, jezzails etc.) mean that it is easy to cause a lot of panic tests.

I still think DoC are upper tier though, about on par with High Elves.

Asmodai48
18-07-2010, 08:10
basic DE are 6/7 pts and a basic HE is 9, quite different then 12 id say :)

Yea and demons dominate them. Then theres elven elite units which are equal or worse than demon core while costing more. Then you have heralds.

Sand
18-07-2010, 08:22
TLOS + no guess range + cannons = dead 600 pt lord choices.Just for the record, Cannons aren't all that.
At the very best, hitting is still two 2+ rolls (one of which has the potential to take your cannon out of the game), wounding is a 2+ roll and then you need to actually roll a decent amount of wounds. After that, there's a ward save (which we can translate to a 3+ roll for the Empire player, assuming the GD doesn't have any extra protection).

So, firing on a GD, it goes; 2+,2+, 2+, 5+ (assuming it's not a GUO), 3+ to actually kill it (failing the 5+ roll you can still dent it of course).
I don't know what the exact odds are, but they're hardly amazing. In fact you have a better shot at taking out characters with killing blow in hand to hand -something that's rarely considered a surefire method.

Now I'm not saying cannons are bad, or not worth their points or that they ought to be better or anything like that, but they're in no way the automatic Monster/Daemon killers people seem to think -and that's worth keeping in mind no matter what side of the table you're on.

chaoschild
18-07-2010, 08:27
the demon army should be hard they are demons after all. but this is a game that they can be beat so stop whining and just get more practise playing them and playing against them

Wednesday Friday Addams
18-07-2010, 08:33
In a world of hope and candy floss all armies should be hard.

ghostline
18-07-2010, 08:49
My goblin horde actually does pretty good against Demons. Where they field on average 5-6 units. I can field 15.

chaoschild
18-07-2010, 09:06
oh if i have to complain about some thing it would be that the look out sir rule in 8th sucks. i know that this a game but it shouldnt be able this effective at snipe with cannons and stone throwers, but the new rule goes one further now archers and handgunners can pick out charcters on mounts in units, so juggernuats, palanquins and even wood elf mounts now suck. i like these centerpeice models in my army because it is great painting them but now all i do is deploy them and on turn one or two take it off, oh he is dead got shot. grrrrrr. no look out sir you are a horse or monstrous cav so you got shot haha next time go on foot see the country side

cybercaine
18-07-2010, 09:09
Alright. As far as nerfs go, the 12 power die at one time is a huge negative for demons that used to be ble to field armies with a ton more dice thanks to the Blue Scribes, multiple wizards, etc. That was a welcome change. As was the change to PB's. If only the nerf bat could have found its way to Kairos and Skulltaker like it did to the Blue Scribes. Both of those guys are way under-costed.

A simple comparison of Skulltaker to any other hero in the game reveals his value when you see what he costs in points. Especially since he's going before just about anything now that doesn't have ASF. And he's likely killing it. Oh, is that your general? Math says that I have an approx. 80% chance to hit with my hatred + many attacks + killing blow. Good luck. Enjoy the pain.

And Kairos. . . geez. . . +2 to cast for a total of +6? and 14 spells? Oh, and Glean Magic went from being unfair and poorly designed with game balance in mind to being truly ridiculous? Talk about unfair design. I mean, before it was a 7+ to cast that could easily net you a 12+ spell gaining you basically virtual dice by nature of its ability. If cast at the correct time (read last) it was unlikely to get stopped (your magic phase was an ugly abomination full of many bound spell- Blue Scribes- and 20 dice. . . shudder) and in effect gained you the +5 difference in casting value netting you almost 1.5 virtual power dice. Not very fair. Now we essentially have to worry about +15 casting values getting cast. It's very scary. In effect, a DoC player can use Kairos to cast the spell with 2 dice reliably (with his +6 to cast failing only 1 in 36 times), forcing his opponent to likely waste more DD (given that the average roll with 2 dice the demon player is getting a 13 to cast, the opponent, if they have a lvl 4, will than need a 9. It is risky for the opponent to risk throwing just 3 dice as a large percentage of the time he will fail to hit the 9+ and then lose his +4 to dispell the rest of the round. . . meaning that that stupid spell that cast on 7+ cost your opponent 4 DD while only costing you 2 PD). This is in part due to the threat that Glean magic is as well as the ridiculously efficient casting that Kairos can do with his +6 to cast. Kairos is ridiculously unfair. He's up there with Mannfred and Teclis for magic phase point efficiency. The special ability for Death Lore isn't going to help anything with Kairos casting a spell from that list to regain power dice and taking full advantage of the tzenntch spell that garners power dice. It's going to be a long Magic phase with Kairos. Oh, and I understand that Kairos can be killed with a cannonball. Given that it hits. And given that he doesn't save with his 3+. And given that you roll 5+ for the wounds. But if he survives to his magic phase, he can begin to heal himself with the life ability. . . He's really unfair. And if for some reason that Tournaments end up being 2500 pts (which I think is likely given the changes to rules and the speedier play), he fits just right in those margins.

Demons with Kairos and Skulltaker + Bloodletters and Deamonettes will be more than great, trust me.

fubukii
18-07-2010, 19:13
kairos can be pretty easy to take out in this edition, any spell that targets his init basically kills him. he is init one so spells like pit of shades and purple sun are excellent to remove him from the table with ease giving every army who can take death/shadow a counter to kairos (worst case your throw 6 dice at it just to kill off kairos). Granted i will admit as he is pretty ridiculous and i would consider kairso fateweaver op, but i usually dont consider named characters into armies power ranking. Skulltaker and Kairos are named characters who are way to strong, some other armies have Op named characters as well (teclis comes to mind!), but i do not include them for my rating.

Daemonettes are a ok unit i would not say they are that amazing though the str 3/t really hurts the high cost model. and their herald is fairly easy to kill.

Cannons dont have to kill a gd in 1 shot thats why armies take 2-3 :P

a cannon shot has a 40% chance to do 3.5 wounds to a greater daemon including his ward save hardly bad :P

as for the Elf vs blood letter debate it will depend on unit sizes, de spearmen are dirt cheap and would outnumber the letters ( almost 2:1 in fact) and over time wear them down. it really would come down to size, and formation. (meaning if i have say 20 letters they will have about 35 warriors and 26 HE) But overal its not like the letters come up and face roll, like some people have stated.

if you guys think bloodletters are so amazing id hate to see what you think of saurus warriors :)

Walls
18-07-2010, 20:16
Again, 12 points is NOT high cost.

Maoriboy007
18-07-2010, 20:37
They haven't been hit as bad as the undead armies. It remains to be seen if thier abilities can still offset thier points cost to the same degree. At least their instability benefits from steadfast. They'll also have to find a feasable fighting infantry unit, bloodletters might do the trick.

fubukii
18-07-2010, 21:41
Again, 12 points is NOT high cost.


Minus only a few units of infantry what is more then 12 pts?

I will agree VC got hit super hard, much worse then DOC

itcamefromthedeep
18-07-2010, 21:53
The effectiveness of cannons at killing Greater Deamons depends on a number of factors. Terrain alone can make the difference between getting three shots and getting none. I would not be comfortable with a cannon as my answer to a greater daemon.

---

20 Bloodletters are roughly an even match for 25 High Elf Spearelves, or 15 Phoenix Guard, or 20 Saurus with shields. Those 20 Bloodletters will tend to lose against a horde of, say, 60 Night Goblins with shields and nets. 20 Bloodletters will tend to win against 20 Black Orcs (whatever they choose to use) or 25 Dwarf Warriors, but not by all that much. The unit seems pretty fair compared to other Core units in a similar role from what I've seen.

---

Stepping up has hurt Daemons badly compared to what they were, if only because they will take casualties from combats that they would previously leave unscathed. Flesh Hounds can no longer walk into a unit of 25 Empire Swordsmen and expect to win on round 2 or 3.

I'll play some games against them before calling the army fair or sucky or awesome.

fubukii
18-07-2010, 22:45
The effectiveness of cannons at killing Greater Deamons depends on a number of factors. Terrain alone can make the difference between getting three shots and getting none. I would not be comfortable with a cannon as my answer to a greater daemon.

---

20 Bloodletters are roughly an even match for 25 High Elf Spearelves, or 15 Phoenix Guard, or 20 Saurus with shields. Those 20 Bloodletters will tend to lose against a horde of, say, 60 Night Goblins with shields and nets. 20 Bloodletters will tend to win against 20 Black Orcs (whatever they choose to use) or 25 Dwarf Warriors, but not by all that much. The unit seems pretty fair compared to other Core units in a similar role from what I've seen.

---

Stepping up has hurt Daemons badly compared to what they were, if only because they will take casualties from combats that they would previously leave unscathed. Flesh Hounds can no longer walk into a unit of 25 Empire Swordsmen and expect to win on round 2 or 3.

I'll play some games against them before calling the army fair or sucky or awesome.

black orcs just kind of are behind the curve though honestly. TLOS does help cannons out a good bit though, for purposes of targeting.

I am interested to see how well orcs with choppahs will do especially biguns in this new edition, i dont know any orc players sadly so i can not find out fiirst hand

itcamefromthedeep
19-07-2010, 01:06
black orcs just kind of are behind the curve though honestly.Indeed. However, we have a member who claimed that his Blorcs with additional choppas would beat Bloodeletters handily. As someone who has fielded Blorcs in half a dozen 8e games so far, I can attest that they do not have the upper hand in such a fight.

---


I am interested to see how well orcs with choppahs will do especially biguns in this new edition, i don't know any orc players sadly so i can not find out fiirst hand
I've seen them on the table a couple times, though I don't have the models. They seem to be a solid unit with a questionable price tag. As long as there is a Black Orc in the unit, I think they will do fine.

---

There are a great many infantry units that sit above 12 points per model. Elf and Dwarf elites usually sit above 12, as do many infantry in the Warriors of Chaos list. Temple Guard, some Grave Guard, and Black Orcs break 12.

Daemon infantry will be outnumbered on many occasions. On many occasions it won't.

I believe ghostline's experience with daemons. These days a unit of Bloodletters or Daemonettes can be overwhelmed by Goblin strikes.

Coldblood666
19-07-2010, 02:26
In my recent game with Daemons I ran a unit of 24 Bloodletters and most of the game it went toe to toe with 15 black orcs led by a orc warboss and a battle-standard bearer. The Bloodletters were consistently winning by a few combat res every turn but there were also a few draws. His orc characters with their ward saves were the ONLY reasons those black orcs were hanging on in that fight. In the end my bloodletters got flanked by 15 orc boyz and then in my next turn I rammed a blood chariot ridden by a herald of khorne into the flank of the orc boyz and then charged 5 flesh hounds into the orc boyz rear. It was all over then and both orc units were annihilated.

DaemonReign
19-07-2010, 02:45
I just played with a block of 46 Bloodletters that my Dwarf opponent failed to shot at before it came into CC.

Man.. The horde rule.. I mean, wow.. You could practically see dwarves flying left and right, that Bloodletter Horde walked across the board like a lawn-mower.

I had another Horde of Plaguebearers that I managed to cast Birona's Timewarp on (light, +1A, ASF, double M-augment) so they did the same thing to his other horde-block.

His third horde block I rear-charged with a S10 Thirster. Making close to 10 wounds every CC-round, hell, be as steadfast as you want I don't care..

Feel like I got really lucky. I'm waiting to play maybe ten games against Dark Elves and Empire before I make a call on whether or not Daemons are actually "worse off" in 8th Ed. On "Paper" it looks pretty definitive that they would be...

Sand
19-07-2010, 11:32
Cannons dont have to kill a gd in 1 shot thats why armies take 2-3 :P

a cannon shot has a 40% chance to do 3.5 wounds to a greater daemon including his ward save hardly bad :P

First of all, noone said Cannon are bad, overpriced or anything like that (as opposed to what people are saying about some Daemon units). Secondly, 3 Cannon are 300 points, so it's not really an outrage if they actually do something :)
Thirdly, I'd like to see the math on those 40%, as the ward save alone has a 33% chance of saving the GD completely.

Finally, yeah, you pretty much do need to kill that GD in one turn if you're going to shoot it. It's in close combat after that.

Vegeta365
19-07-2010, 18:55
Kairos won't be voluntarily getting into combat. The other greater daemons, yes. But not Tzeentch ones and certainly not Kairos. Lord of change will happily do it if needed, but that is not what they are there for.

I have been interested to see what ranks of 10 daemons will do, and wether this is a viable tactic (ie only a couple of very large units of daemons as opposed to a few smaller ones).

Im really not sure what size units we will see work most effective for the likes of bloodletters and daemonettes. I am thinking units of 30 with a herald 6 wide 5 deep. Will get quite a few attacks but more importantly can deny steadfast. This seems to be the main problem for daemons. We can still win the first round of combat but that is no good if the enemy doesnt break and grinds are numbers down over a few rounds due to step up.

At 3000pts I may only be using 3 units of 30 daemons. We see how it goes.

Lord Inquisitor
19-07-2010, 20:43
With my Daemonettes I'm seriously considering changing my usual 10-15 strong units to 25-30 strong just to try and get around Steadfast. It's a horrific pain. So typically they'll be ranking up 5-wide to try and get as many ranks as possible.

itcamefromthedeep
20-07-2010, 22:51
Are we looking at a ranks arms race? Will we soon be seeing 50-strong units of light infantry 5-wide and 10-deep?

I also don't have a problem with a 100-point cannon having a chance of badly wounding a Greater Daemon. After all, a 100-point unit of Goblins can run down a 500-point unit of Chosen if the Goblins get a flank charge.

AlphariusOmegon20
21-07-2010, 04:16
Have people really looked at the DP this edition? I keep seeing people say they are crap.

Demon Prince
Etherblade
Swiftness
375 points

Here you have a monster with I7 and ASF. He gets that sexy new super hatred and each hit allows no armor saves. Oh, and before anyone gets to strike back, he thunderstomps at I7 and that grants no armor saves.

How is this crap?

Umm, he stomps at I1, not I7. Even if it's a Thunderstomp.

And I hate to tell you, but you get an AS against TS. It's at your base S, which for him is a 5 which would be -2 to AS, just like a normal Stomp would be.

AlphariusOmegon20
21-07-2010, 04:25
Except you will not have enough power dice to cast that. Particularly with heralds, you are probably chucking 3 dice at the 9+ amber spear. You may get to throw three of them a turn. But depending on army/points etc youre opponent can quite happily dispell them.

I realy am thinking that you will start to see people just using one power a turn and throwing all their dice at it to get it off. If youre opponent has a level 4 wizard, it is difficult to get off multiple spells. You may get one off but others are dispelled. Therefore aren't you better off getting one more powerfull spell cast?

More games will show how things start to pan out at competitive play, but with an average 7 power dice and an opponent having say 4 dispell dice, I cant realy see this not going that way a bit. Do I throw 4 dice at one spell and three at another and see my opponent dispell one power and one go through or do I make sure I get off my most powerfull spell?

Also how do people think they will see bloodletters rank up now that a few weeks of gaming have passed by? 7 wide gets a lot more hits in. 5 means you can have a lot more ranks and potentially stop steadfast. Between 2000pts and 3000pts what size unit will be most used? 25?

Thoughts?

Where are you getting 3 dice each time? I only need two. Average roll on 2 dice is 7 + 1 for the level of each of the HoT's. I only need to find another +1 to get it off at that point.

The theory still works for VC and their single dice spam, it's basically a modified two dice way of how they cast Invocate.

Lord Inquisitor
21-07-2010, 04:38
Umm, he stomps at I1, not I7. Even if it's a Thunderstomp.

And I hate to tell you, but you get an AS against TS. It's at your base S, which for him is a 5 which would be -2 to AS, just like a normal Stomp would be.

Thunderstomp is always strikes last. The daemon has always strike first. These cancel out, so the thunderstomp works at initiative order. Same logic applies to the keeper of secrets.

squalie
21-07-2010, 05:45
Thunderstomp is always strikes last

Why do people keep saying this? Aren't stomps at the end of combat, which is even after ASL?

Anyways, I've played quite a few Daemon games in 8th. I've played many games against, WoC, DE's, Dwarfs, Empire, Beastmen and O&G. Only once was I obliterated and that was against DE's -- and even that game was as much my fault as anything.

Daemons may have had some of their claws clipped, but that just makes them more enjoyable in my opinion. It's nice to have to earn a win now. It's also nice that people are willing to play you now. Fear may be worse for us, but you have to roll every round now, and people barking that rerolls with BSB will prevent that -- just play a few games and you'll realise that in the real world your BSB isn't always where they need him to be....or even alive.

Are Daemons tier one? I don't know as no one will ever agree what's tier one anyways, but I DO know that when I play my Daemon army I still feel confident, but challenged. Which is exactly what I wanted.

Sparowl
21-07-2010, 06:41
kairos can be pretty easy to take out in this edition, any spell that targets his init basically kills him. he is init one so spells like pit of shades and purple sun are excellent to remove him from the table with ease giving every army who can take death/shadow a counter to kairos (worst case your throw 6 dice at it just to kill off kairos). Granted i will admit as he is pretty ridiculous and i would consider kairso fateweaver op, but i usually dont consider named characters into armies power ranking. Skulltaker and Kairos are named characters who are way to strong, some other armies have Op named characters as well (teclis comes to mind!), but i do not include them for my rating.


A) Your lore is chosen when you make your list. Neither Shadow nor Death is high on my list of lores I'd take for use in an all-comers list.

B) Why not include special characters? They are allowed in games. Nothing prevents people from playing them, unless its a decision made by your group. But in a conversation like this, they have to be considered, since they are legal parts of the army. And Kairos is disgusting.


Why do people keep saying this? Aren't stomps at the end of combat, which is even after ASL?

No, they are resolved as ASL.

Vegeta365
21-07-2010, 08:12
Where are you getting 3 dice each time? I only need two. Average roll on 2 dice is 7 + 1 for the level of each of the HoT's. I only need to find another +1 to get it off at that point.

The theory still works for VC and their single dice spam, it's basically a modified two dice way of how they cast Invocate.

Even if you throw 2 dice at the spell you will statistically on more occasions (plus it is the average) have 7 power dice, plus 0.5 for youre 3 heralds throwing the power.

Even throwing two dice you will only get three off! To throw more you would need a fourth herald. You could have a LOC/Kairos I guess but for that spell having that many points spent may not be the way to go?

A magic phase like that doesn't sound too appealing to me. 1 of the 3 casts will fail. The other 2 can be dispelled relatively easy by youre opponents 4 power dice with +4 to cast.

Thoughts?

DaemonReign
21-07-2010, 08:45
Daemons may have had some of their claws clipped, but that just makes them more enjoyable in my opinion.

I wholeheartedly agree with everything except the part about people suddenly not refusing to play Daemons - if I had a sparring partner that pulled something like that (regardless of Edition) I'd never play him again.

But I am starting to think that 8th Ed is the best thing that has happened to Daemons, ever. Even better than this new models release just up for pre-order. 8 Edition has not nerfed them to an "unfluffy" level, but it has made them more fun to play with.

I think alot of people owe Mr Ward an apology.

jspyd3rx
21-07-2010, 09:35
Is it just me or does it almost seem the book has 8th edition in mind? Reading through the book it seems to fit this new edition just fine.

DaemonReign
21-07-2010, 11:12
Is it just me or does it almost seem the book has 8th edition in mind? Reading through the book it seems to fit this new edition just fine.

Yeah it works fine but there's a couple of things that are a little off - some of which were "off" in seventh and some of which got weird with 8th.

- Beast of Nurgle were crap in 7th and paying 100 pts in 8th is a joke.
- Screamers were questionable, now they are jokes too.
- IMO Furies could be made more fun (cheaper or better, don't care which).
- Plaguebearers should probably be 10 points now given their low Initiative.
- Dark Insanity Gift might as well be "ignored" with the new errata.
- Staff of Change is still the joke it always was.
- The Tzeentch Lore (Firestorm specifically) needs a re-write, but that's nothing new it was stupid already in 7th.
- The Daemon Prince needs a re-write, also nothing new.
- Mono-god builds are still as monotonous and uncompetative as they were in 7th, roughly at least.

We had that "Wishlisting for Daemons" thread going here a while ago. There's probably been a few. Way back before I joined Warseer someone (sorry, forgot who exactly) made a theorethical re-write of the Tzeentch Lore that was ******* perfect.

But the summary is still that times were never better for Daemon-players.

DaemonReign
21-07-2010, 11:17
Thunderstomp is always strikes last. The daemon has always strike first. These cancel out, so the thunderstomp works at initiative order. Same logic applies to the keeper of secrets.

Are you sure about this? The way we've interpreted it is that Thunder Stomps are dealt when Everything Else in the combat is resolved.

If what you're saying is true then please refer to source because I will be eaten alive by my opponents without one.:)

EDIT: I found the Answer to this in the Warhammer Rules section! Not sure it's actually good for the Keeper, but at least the rule is clear. It's gonna be awesome for the Thirster though if you managed to cast Birona's Timewarp on him.

Squigling2.0
21-07-2010, 11:18
Daemons are fine.

AlphariusOmegon20
21-07-2010, 16:13
Even if you throw 2 dice at the spell you will statistically on more occasions (plus it is the average) have 7 power dice, plus 0.5 for youre 3 heralds throwing the power.

Even throwing two dice you will only get three off! To throw more you would need a fourth herald. You could have a LOC/Kairos I guess but for that spell having that many points spent may not be the way to go?

A magic phase like that doesn't sound too appealing to me. 1 of the 3 casts will fail. The other 2 can be dispelled relatively easy by youre opponents 4 power dice with +4 to cast.

Thoughts?

LOL I'm not claiming it's a winnable list every time, no list is like that. It's a bit of a more "shock and awe" list that WILL work the first time someone runs up against it, much like the 7th ed. WE and VC lists.

You generally never really knew how to handle them until you had faced them at least once.

Sygerrik
21-07-2010, 17:42
Daemons are still broken as all hell. People are a little blindsided by all the changes. Trust me, they're still the worst-written army book and Mr. Ward still deserves to be piņata'd for them, even if he has somewhat made up for it with the 8th ed core rules.

/grumpy

druchii
21-07-2010, 17:53
Daemons are still broken as all hell. People are a little blindsided by all the changes. Trust me, they're still the worst-written army book and Mr. Ward still deserves to be piņata'd for them, even if he has somewhat made up for it with the 8th ed core rules.

/grumpy

I think we can simply ignore this post.

Not only did you NOT substantiate any of your subjective claims, but then you go on to say that Ward might get some redemption points FOR writing 8th?

Demons are fine in 8th. It isn't like they have a t10 w10 1+ AS steam tank, or 6pt infantry with ld10 and most likely steadfast.

Care to enunciate on how demons are "broken" as hell?

d

DaemonReign
21-07-2010, 18:15
I think we can simply ignore this post.

Not only did you NOT substantiate any of your subjective claims, but then you go on to say that Ward might get some redemption points FOR writing 8th?

Demons are fine in 8th. It isn't like they have a t10 w10 1+ AS steam tank, or 6pt infantry with ld10 and most likely steadfast.

Care to enunciate on how demons are "broken" as hell?

d

I agree. I thought people were pathetic when they were going on like this in 7th edition because their claims were just as unsubstantiated back then as it is now. Now.. sheesh.. I wonder.. Do people like that view threads like this one just to get a rise out of.. themselves?

In addition, there are couple of MINOR details about the Daemon-book that are poorly thought-through..
1 - The Daemon Prince.
2 - Tzeentch Firestorm
3 - Maybe one or two more things that are of the same "fine detail" type and not at all paramount to the quality of the book/army.

The rest of the Daemon book is great - I mean, sure I'd like to see twice as many troop-types for each mark, twice as many Gifts, there are always things one could wish for - but in the face of rants like the one above I feel someone has to step up and go **** you, if I met Matt Ward at the pub I'd buy him a round and thank him both for Daemons and for 8th Ed.

It's a matter of personal taste of course, but I think Daemons are a gezillion times more interesting and cool to deal with than let's say a bunch of ******* rodents or darn frogs running around the battlefield. But you don't see me dropping bs remarks like that in the StarterBox-thread, or pissing and moaning every time someone (sane) lists Skaven and Lizardmen as a tier above Daemons in 8th Ed.

squalie
21-07-2010, 18:21
Care to enunciate on how demons are "broken" as hell?

Actually don't. Save us all the hassle of responding to another pointless post.

I've used Screamers in about 10 games and really don't find them all that bad. Their effect on units is lessened considering the darn units are twice as big, but in the overall game, they will get their points back every single time. And, they are one of those units that annoy the jubblies off of your opponent and that alone is worth their relatively low cost.

Furies are poo, Nurglings are better, Flesh hounds are about just right.

I'd like to thank 8th edition for bringing us guilt-free Daemons!:D

DaemonReign
21-07-2010, 18:31
I've used Screamers in about 10 games and really don't find them all that bad.

Really? Cool. Maybe I'll give them a couple of more tries. To be fair, I fielded them maybe like 4-5 times, the either got shot into smithereens or seemed to do a few wounds here and there that made little difference to overall outcome.

druchii
21-07-2010, 18:34
Actually don't. Save us all the hassle of responding to another pointless post.

I've used Screamers in about 10 games and really don't find them all that bad. Their effect on units is lessened considering the darn units are twice as big, but in the overall game, they will get their points back every single time. And, they are one of those units that annoy the jubblies off of your opponent and that alone is worth their relatively low cost.

Furies are poo, Nurglings are better, Flesh hounds are about just right.

I'd like to thank 8th edition for bringing us guilt-free Daemons!:D

Yup. I've amassed an 8k army of 40k Demons, and I've been wanting to play fantasy with them for ages. Unfortunately with 7th being such a terrible edition, and demons being so terribly broken in it I couldn't honestly bring myself to ever play it.

I'm not saying I like everything about 8th (I don't, I really don't) but I get what was done, and I like it majorly because, even if it does require about 1/10th the skill it used to, it does allow me to double up on the usage of my favorite army ever created by GW.

d

Soul of Iron
21-07-2010, 19:05
I wonder about peoples views on screamers in this edition. I find that people are quick to call something 'crap' without ever testing these units themselves. Units are just dismissed out of hand without proof of how/why they fail. They did the same garbage with Tyrannofexes for the Tyranids and now people cant live without them. Theory-hammer is bad.

I think people need to go back and look at the Demon Prince again. He's WAY better then you think. <--- This is from testing myself.

Lowmans
21-07-2010, 19:20
I think, on paper at least, Daemons look alright now.

I'm glad that Daemons appear to have been 'nerfed' in 8th.

They have some very, very nice models.

I've not played them yet in 8th, once I have a few times I might start an army as long as they're not OP any more!

Lord Inquisitor
21-07-2010, 20:26
Random thought.

Would Soul Hunger work with Thunderstomp?

badguyshaveallthefun
21-07-2010, 21:06
There seems to be two trains of thought. #1: That the only rule that pertains to thunderstomp is the ASL, and so no other special abilities work. #2: Because certain gifts say "close combat attacks made by the character..." that this includes the thunderstomp. I always talk it through with my opponent before hand so there is no confusion. (the same talk has come up with etherblade and spirit swallower as well)

[Edit] - My personal view is #2, but if my opponent doesn't like the idea I'm more than willing to play #1, simply because I don't NEED the bonus ability to work in my behalf as I never had it in 7th and I'm happy to get anything now.

druchii
21-07-2010, 22:43
There seems to be two trains of thought. #1: That the only rule that pertains to thunderstomp is the ASL, and so no other special abilities work. #2: Because certain gifts say "close combat attacks made by the character..." that this includes the thunderstomp. I always talk it through with my opponent before hand so there is no confusion. (the same talk has come up with etherblade and spirit swallower as well)

[Edit] - My personal view is #2, but if my opponent doesn't like the idea I'm more than willing to play #1, simply because I don't NEED the bonus ability to work in my behalf as I never had it in 7th and I'm happy to get anything now.

It definitely works.

Is it a close combat?
Yup.
Do special rules stack?
Yup.
Does Tstomp say it doesn't stack with other abilities?
Nope.

Good rule of thumb, though.

d

squalie
21-07-2010, 23:13
[Edit] - My personal view is #2, but if my opponent doesn't like the idea I'm more than willing to play #1, simply because I don't NEED the bonus ability to work in my behalf as I never had it in 7th and I'm happy to get anything now.

I love that attitude.

Sygerrik
21-07-2010, 23:19
I think, on paper at least, Daemons look alright now.

I'm glad that Daemons appear to have been 'nerfed' in 8th.

They have some very, very nice models.

I've not played them yet in 8th, once I have a few times I might start an army as long as they're not OP any more!

A large number of Daemon players have seized on the new edition to attempt to convince everyone their army is not broken anymore. Do not believe them. There are aspects that are less broken, but as a whole the Daemon army book's problems were not with the core 7th edition rules. Their problems were that most everything they had was grotesquely underpriced and horrifyingly effective, and their supposed "downsides" were not really disadvantages at all. There's actually someone on this forum going around with a straight face saying Empire is more powerful than DoC now. I think that should give you an indication how divorced from reality the DoC player community is.

Are they as bad as they were in 7th? Absolutely not. Are they balanced with the other top-tier armies (HE, Skaven, and DE)? Absolutely not. They are still the best, but by half a mile rather than a full mile.

EDIT:
Ok, why are they broken? This is why:
1) It is still impossible to break a Daemon unit. All of their GDs have an 18" leadership radius, and with a simple standard all of their units in a large bubble are stubborn. As a small, elite army, that means everyone will be stubborn. Effectively, you have to kill every. last. one. of any unit of Daemons; you can't break them like other units. And with no more half-points, Daemons are the best points-denial army out there.
2) In an infantry-focused metagame, they have the most absurdly powerful infantry in Bloodletters and Daemonettes. High I, high WS, and easy access to hatred and ASF means they will be hitting almost any other infantry on 3s with rerolls. They also all have the equivalent of heavy armor on their core troops-- heavy armor that CANNOT be modified by strength, which is huge. Many anti-infantry measures such as high-S attacks and war machines cancel armor saves by dint of strength. Not so with Daemons.
3) They have ridiculously underpriced gifts. Siren Song dictates your opponent's movement; Power Vortex is aces in the new magic environment, as extra dice are at a premium, and there's no limit on how times you can take it. Other gifts such as Obsidian Armor prevent enemy characters from having a chance against the high statlines of underpriced Daemon characters, and Twin Heads makes their wizards among the most powerful in the game, leading to...
4) They have extraordinarily powerful lores and some of the best gifts in the game to give wizards, allowing them to prevent (or force) IF/miscast with rerolls or add to the casting roll of spells. They can also take very potent wizards as Core choices, freeing up their character slots for...
5) Stupidly underpriced and overpowered characters. Compare the statlines of Heralds to heroes from other books. I'll wait. Add in their Locus powers and their gift options (yes, it's a great idea to give a character 6 WS7 S4 ASF AP attacks for under 150 points) and they stand head and shoulders above most other characters.
6) Certain units are simply wildly out of line power-wise. Flamers and Flesh Hounds are the archetypical examples. Why does one of the most effective skirmishing ranged units in the game have 2 S5 attacks and 2 wounds?
7) I'm throwing in the SCs because you no longer need opponents' permission to use them. I know some people don't include SCs in army power calculations but I can't think why. They're part of the army; do you say Skaven are weak tier because you choose not to use HPAs? And Daemon SCs are, by and large, even more overpowered than the rest of the list-- specifically the Masque and Skulltaker.
8) Let's not even talk about immunity to Panic (which became a lot more important in this edition since Panic is easier to cause) and causing Fear (which isn't as good as it used to be but is still fantastic).
9) There are tons of minor details, such as the ability to get a 0+ save and a pretty good magic weapon equivalent on a BSB, and the fact that you can counter pretty much any strength in your opponent's army... but I'll gloss over these.

THAT is why the DoC army is still broken. The chief argument against that seems to be their priceyness. Do me a favor. Compare a Bloodletter to a 12-point infantry model from any other army. If you do not see the clear superiority of the Daemon you are not playing the same game as everyone else.

Nubl0
21-07-2010, 23:50
I find the idea that all daemon players are devorced from reality and power mad to be laughable, I myself just started a daemon army.. infact I just started fantasy. SO does that make me a power abusing *********? Say if I was to win would you jsut grumble about it being daemons, thats just poor sportsmanship.

Oh and on the subject of the wards save. Dont waste your high str untis on them? You talk of bloodletters and demonettes, might I remind you that they are still t3 For pitys sake its a 5+ save, it's not like they are all going survive. However I will agree that the masque and skulltaker are underpriced, but I fin the heralds... except maybe the slaanesh one just fine.

Also... Flammers are dirty... very dirty.

druchii
21-07-2010, 23:57
A large number of Daemon players have seized on the new edition to attempt to convince everyone their army is not broken anymore. Do not believe them. There are aspects that are less broken, but as a whole the Daemon army book's problems were not with the core 7th edition rules. Their problems were that most everything they had was grotesquely underpriced and horrifyingly effective, and their supposed "downsides" were not really disadvantages at all. There's actually someone on this forum going around with a straight face saying Empire is more powerful than DoC now. I think that should give you an indication how divorced from reality the DoC player community is.

Are they as bad as they were in 7th? Absolutely not. Are they balanced with the other top-tier armies (HE, Skaven, and DE)? Absolutely not. They are still the best, but by half a mile rather than a full mile.

EDIT:
Ok, why are they broken? This is why:
1) It is still impossible to break a Daemon unit. All of their GDs have an 18" leadership radius, and with a simple standard all of their units in a large bubble are stubborn. As a small, elite army, that means everyone will be stubborn. Effectively, you have to kill every. last. one. of any unit of Daemons; you can't break them like other units. And with no more half-points, Daemons are the best points-denial army out there.
2) In an infantry-focused metagame, they have the most absurdly powerful infantry in Bloodletters and Daemonettes. High I, high WS, and easy access to hatred and ASF means they will be hitting almost any other infantry on 3s with rerolls. They also all have the equivalent of heavy armor on their core troops-- heavy armor that CANNOT be modified by strength, which is huge. Many anti-infantry measures such as high-S attacks and war machines cancel armor saves by dint of strength. Not so with Daemons.
3) They have ridiculously underpriced gifts. Siren Song dictates your opponent's movement; Power Vortex is aces in the new magic environment, as extra dice are at a premium, and there's no limit on how times you can take it. Other gifts such as Obsidian Armor prevent enemy characters from having a chance against the high statlines of underpriced Daemon characters, and Twin Heads makes their wizards among the most powerful in the game, leading to...
4) They have extraordinarily powerful lores and some of the best gifts in the game to give wizards, allowing them to prevent (or force) IF/miscast with rerolls or add to the casting roll of spells. They can also take very potent wizards as Core choices, freeing up their character slots for...
5) Stupidly underpriced and overpowered characters. Compare the statlines of Heralds to heroes from other books. I'll wait. Add in their Locus powers and their gift options (yes, it's a great idea to give a character 6 WS7 S4 ASF AP attacks for under 150 points) and they stand head and shoulders above most other characters.
6) Certain units are simply wildly out of line power-wise. Flamers and Flesh Hounds are the archetypical examples. Why does one of the most effective skirmishing ranged units in the game have 2 S5 attacks and 2 wounds?
7) I'm throwing in the SCs because you no longer need opponents' permission to use them. I know some people don't include SCs in army power calculations but I can't think why. They're part of the army; do you say Skaven are weak tier because you choose not to use HPAs? And Daemon SCs are, by and large, even more overpowered than the rest of the list-- specifically the Masque and Skulltaker.
8) Let's not even talk about immunity to Panic (which became a lot more important in this edition since Panic is easier to cause) and causing Fear (which isn't as good as it used to be but is still fantastic).
9) There are tons of minor details, such as the ability to get a 0+ save and a pretty good magic weapon equivalent on a BSB, and the fact that you can counter pretty much any strength in your opponent's army... but I'll gloss over these.

THAT is why the DoC army is still broken. The chief argument against that seems to be their priceyness. Do me a favor. Compare a Bloodletter to a 12-point infantry model from any other army. If you do not see the clear superiority of the Daemon you are not playing the same game as everyone else.

But WHY. You can't come into a thread and throw around a lot of subjective statements like this with nothing to back them up.

Oh, there's an edit so I'll answer those too.

1. A 500pt unit that gives an 18" bubble of Ld. OUGHT to be good. it's 1/4th of the entire army!

A "simple" standard? YOU mean a 100pt standard, on a dude with 2W, who, if you make "survivable" costs more than the majority of peoples' LORD choices.

Sure they're good at points denial, until you hit their one block of dudes with two or three of your own.

2.Bloodletters are t3, and have hatred for the first turn of combat. Ork boys are 6pts, have a 6up ward (which EVERYONE gets access to with HW/shield, lets not even talk about AHWs). So they'll essentially always outnumber the BLs two to one. Hence stubborn. Oh, and the entire front rank and their buddies will ALWAYS (unless you kill them ALL) be able to strike back. Against t3.

Demonettes having ASF? Not past the first turn of combat. You know I can direct attacks at her right? And she's t3 with a 5+ and 2w. That's dead in two turns of combat (oh yeah, and I didn't waste points on a hero, and my troops are half as expensive...and I'm still stubborn).

But again, when paying nearly double what the other top tier armies do for their troops, having a 5+ ward is reasonable. Heck, I'd take heavy armor if you knocked a bunch of points off of each of my core units.

3. Uhm, I don't know which book you're looking at but the lores aren't "insanely" powerful. Not by a long shot. They're good, but I'd hot swap the lore of tzeentch for life any day. In a heartbeat. Other races have BETTER magic games. WoC, Lizardmen, Skaven and HE all come to mind. Not to mention that demons can't do ALL of what you're saying with the SAME army. I could talk about how terrifying other armies were if they could include EVERYTHING (man, that 4 mortar, two cannon, steamtank, pope-mobile Empire army is sick!) that was good in their book in the same, 2k list.

4. Oh, horrors as potent? Ok. Nevermind you start pulling out t3 5++ save dudes they diminish in power significantly. Oh, and if you get 'em in combat, they've got one spell which can effect units, and it's not that amazing.

5. I'll let you go browse through the WOC/Lizardman/DE books yourself, that way I can't violate the IP by posting up stats. Oh nevermind your girl only has 2w and a 5++ save and is t3. And she'll always get attacks thrown back at her.(yay 24pts of ork boyz killing a 140pt character!)

6.Flesh hounds are only alright now. You're still in that 7th ed mindset. Poor little doggies get attacks allocated against them all day long. I give them one or two rounds before the poof from combat.

You've got me on flamers, they're just stupidly good (I know an army book having a few good units is unique just to demons.)

7.Special Characters? Everyone has crazy special characters. Thorek and Teclis immediately come to mind. Oh and nevermind taking both masque and ST will close you out from taking any other heroes.

8.Well fear and ITP both took hits because of the buffs to BSBs and allowing everyone to re-roll ALL ld tests. And fear is a hollow shell of what it used to be. Sure taking ld tests at every combat step is nice, but it reduces the "to hit roll" from 4s to 5s. Woo! And people don't auto-break anymore.

9. Sure, if I KNEW what you were playing I could attempt to "counter" it. But then again so could you. That's why we play the game, to see who counters who.

It seems to me like you're treating the entire Demon book as only a specific options (which you could do with ANY army, and they'd look amazing), while thinking primarily in a 7th edition mindset. I'd wager you haven't gotten many games of 8th in against a variety of opponents, who are smart, building their lists for 8th (not these "re-vamps" of their 7th armies) and playing with the 8th rules in mind.

A lot of your points blatantly miss the changes in the new rules, and sound much more at home in the LAST edition, and not in this one.

I'll never understand why people have such a grudge against books when rules have so obviously changed.

d

Vsurma
22-07-2010, 00:19
Yea once you do the match on the letters and deamonettes against a whole host of units you will realize they are not that good.

Hounds taking attacks back also makes them not great.

Flamers....not much can be said, one of the better units in the entire game. Skirmishing shooters that also double as very hard hitters in CC.

DEamons used to hit really hard in CC, with good support from flamers in shooting and heralds and horrors for good magic.

Flamers are still good, horrors I am not sure about as they do get very expensive and aren't great at casting once in combat.
CC has taken a huge hit (still not bad but no where near what it was)

Just go have a look in the armylist section at deamon armies, they aren't that scary anymore.

Lijacote
22-07-2010, 00:54
Ok, why are they broken? This is why:
1) It is still impossible to break a Daemon unit. All of their GDs have an 18" leadership radius, and with a simple standard all of their units in a large bubble are stubborn. As a small, elite army, that means everyone will be stubborn. Effectively, you have to kill every. last. one. of any unit of Daemons; you can't break them like other units. And with no more half-points, Daemons are the best points-denial army out there.

A simple, very expensive standard that you have to put on a BSB.


2) In an infantry-focused metagame, they have the most absurdly powerful infantry in Bloodletters and Daemonettes. High I, high WS, and easy access to hatred and ASF means they will be hitting almost any other infantry on 3s with rerolls. They also all have the equivalent of heavy armor on their core troops-- heavy armor that CANNOT be modified by strength, which is huge. Many anti-infantry measures such as high-S attacks and war machines cancel armor saves by dint of strength. Not so with Daemons.
Pretty sure that with Stepping Up, Heralds of Slaanesh and Khorne both are pretty vulnerable to being maimed, exception being included for Khorne's armoured heralds.

3) They have ridiculously underpriced gifts. Siren Song dictates your opponent's movement; Power Vortex is aces in the new magic environment, as extra dice are at a premium, and there's no limit on how times you can take it. Other gifts such as Obsidian Armor prevent enemy characters from having a chance against the high statlines of underpriced Daemon characters, and Twin Heads makes their wizards among the most powerful in the game, leading to...
Twin Heads is definitely not the gift that makes DoC wizards the strongest in the game. Master of Sorcery might be that Gift. 75 points for +2 to casting rolls? Get out of here.

4) They have extraordinarily powerful lores and some of the best gifts in the game to give wizards, allowing them to prevent (or force) IF/miscast with rerolls or add to the casting roll of spells. They can also take very potent wizards as Core choices, freeing up their character slots for...

Compared to standard lores, their god-specific lores are nothing amazing.


9) There are tons of minor details, such as the ability to get a 0+ save and a pretty good magic weapon equivalent on a BSB, and the fact that you can counter pretty much any strength in your opponent's army... but I'll gloss over these.

Pretty sure 0+ saves aren't that special. Being able to counter things isn't intrinsically terrible either.

squalie
22-07-2010, 02:03
Sygerrik, that's quite the agenda you have there!

Listen, I will be the first to stand up and be relieved that we weren't nerfed like some would claim, and even those claims coming from people who don't even play Daemons. I will say I'm relieved that they're still very competitive and easily in the top part of the 'tier' system. (I hate the word "tier".)

I just can't stand around though and listen to you tell me they're broken. Good God man, play a few games with them and you'll see how fast they can disappear while you still have half your army on the table. I've played around 15 games so far, all 2500+ if that matters, and I have to earn a win. And I've been destryed in a couple -- which was starngely satisfying. That's something I'm really enjoying! I actually have to pick my fights now, instead of just shoving stuff forward, watching the TV in the background while you scoop models off the table. Playing Daemons is exciting now.

Arnizipal
22-07-2010, 02:19
I had to step in again to remove flaming and trolling.
Since my previous warning was ignored this thread is now locked.

Arnizipal,

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