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kiron
15-07-2010, 06:45
Okay, was the HE elite rule that necessary? 4 eagles i can deal with, but 10? Also multiple units of white lions are also a pain in the ass since they are little speedbumps. I'm having lots of trouble dealing with HE, even with empire which is supposodly a high tier list with the tank, i just can't beat it...unless lucky dice. The MSU high elf has is really good in a meta full of horde infantry and little units.

Here is a list my friend uses in 2k:

Lord and heroes: 2
Teclis using shadow lore

BSB-banner of sorcery

Core: 2
29 spearmen (BSB here)-full command
29 spearmen (teclis here)-musician and standard

Special: 4
5 white lion
5 white lion
5 white lion
5 white lion

Rare: 10!
10 great eagles

1997 points

My main list is empire is:

Lords and Heroes
Wizard lord: rod of power, lvl 4, heavens
archlector: armor meteoric iron, GW
BSB: full plate, steed

Core: 3
39 halberdiers: full command
5 militia detachment

40 halberdiers: full command
5 militia detachment

10 crossbowmen

Special: 7
2 mortars
2 great cannons
5 pistoliers-musician
5 pistoliers-musician
5 pistoliers-musician

Rare: 1
1 tank


I know shooting is a GREAT tactic, but it doesn't really work even with the mortars killing 10-20 spearmen since i only get 1-2 rounds of shooting max thanks to so much freaking eagles.

I given up on trying to assassinate teclis with pistoliers since spearmen bodyguards could chew them up for breakfast.

Also, annoying is the white lion choochoo train (1x5) running in front of halberiders and can hold them for a LONG time (only 4-5 attacks since white lions strike first with 2 hits usually killing 1-2) with stubborn and BSB nearby and lets my units be helplessly charged by spearmen. And of course, the great empire halberdiers just folded to spearmen losing 14-18 a turn (yes, 20 re-roll hits on 3+ and str 8 means lots of dead men and losing steadfast)

Don't even get me started on teclis, i slammed my tank into spearmen killing 8 and next turn, mindrazer with 20 str 8 retal hits resulted in 3 wounds taking my tank out of commission and YES destroyed in 3 full rounds of combat! while my magic defence was no match to IF every turn and losing my only respectable spell (chain lightning to scroll).

Of course, my mage and crossbowmen gets killed by 3-4 eagles while the other 6 go warmachine hunting.

So please, before anyone complains about t10 tanks, complain about HE elite army rule, 16 unit MSU list, ASF, mini stubborn white lions speedbumps THAT actually kill stuff with no slot restrictions, plus teclis. Sorry for the rant:mad:, every army can be strong, I believed I took a respectably strong list, (maybe not the MOST optimised), but yeah, the tank was pretty useless...my only other option was just load up on 3 mortars, 2 hellstroms, 2 hellblasters, and 7 pegasus riders (4 heroes and 3 lords) :evilgrin:, but that list wouldn't do well against a wide range of armys :( So for your naysayers, do NOT complain about the t10 tank (which is easily busted) when other armies have way more efficient units that have NO slot restrictions!

Vandelan
15-07-2010, 07:02
Also, annoying is the white lion choochoo train (1x5) running in front of halberiders and can hold them for a LONG time (only 4-5 attacks since white lions strike first with 2 hits usually killing 1-2)...

What exactly do you mean by this? You shouldn't be denied any of your attacks as casualties are removed from the rear. You should be getting around 6-7 attacks from your halberdiers against the white lions...

Your friend's list seems to honestly be quite abusive of the rules, in particular the conga line of white lions. I would advise that you tell your friend to keep lists like that for tournaments and not for friendly games.

Lists like that aren't exactly fun to play against and ruin the spirit of the game.

Of course if your friend keeps playing like that, then you should adjust your lists accordingly, sporting items that cause fear in flyers and the like in addition to shooting the hell out of them and the white lions with things like cannons. A cannon shot from the front should be enough to devastate a cheesy conga line such as that.;)

Thruster
15-07-2010, 07:06
Also, annoying is the white lion choochoo train (1x5) running in front of halberiders and can hold them for a LONG time (only 4-5 attacks since white lions strike first with 2 hits usually killing 1-2)

Since you have step-up rule, all your men from rank 1 and rank 2 can attack, that should be 10 attacks from your Halberdiers (10 attacks, 5 hits and 3 wounds with 6+ save.. although still takes 2 rounds of combat to wipe them out).

I think you can deal with spam eagle nearly the same you deal with spam harpies (and harpies are core), so either shoot them down with bullets and arrows, that or charge them with detachments.

kiron
15-07-2010, 07:14
Since you have step-up rule, all your men from rank 1 and rank 2 can attack, that should be 10 attacks from your Halberdiers (10 attacks, 5 hits and 3 wounds with 6+ save.. although still takes 2 rounds of combat to wipe them out).

I think you can deal with spam eagle nearly the same you deal with spam harpies (and harpies are core), so either shoot them down with bullets and arrows, that or charge them with detachments.

No, since the choochoo line is 5 ranks of 1, the white lion is only in b2b contact with 3 halberdiers max, so 3 attacks, 6 with step up, white lions strike first with 2 attacks and reduce me to 4-5 attacks which usually 2-3 hits, and 2 wounds where one may be saved. Still enough to last 2-3 rounds of combat.

And, no we are allowed to have as much cheese as we want, but the purpose was not complaining about cheesiness of my opponent, but the fact that HE has this annoying fluffy rule that breaks the fundamental rule of all armies, slot restrictions, ASF, IF, etc... And people complain about the tank sheesh...

Vandelan
15-07-2010, 07:17
Since you have step-up rule, all your men from rank 1 and rank 2 can attack, that should be 10 attacks from your Halberdiers (10 attacks, 5 hits and 3 wounds with 6+ save.. although still takes 2 rounds of combat to wipe them out).

That is incorrect actually. Only models that are in base contact with enemy units and the models directly behind them are considered able to attack in combat. With a conga line, only three maximum models will be able to participate in combat against the White Lions in the front rank, and the members of the unit directly behind them for supporting attacks. This caps the number of attacks back at either 6 or 7 depending if the unit champion is in combat or not.

CaptScott
15-07-2010, 07:18
5 ranks of 1! Easy solution, don't play that tool again (sorry if your reading said tool :) ) Either that or bring 10 mortars to your next game.

Also I was under the impression that you could always strike back with full attacks (ie 6 in your case)

AlphariusOmegon20
15-07-2010, 07:19
I see you're not taking either feedback or Hex scrolls. There's your mistake with Teclis.

Walls
15-07-2010, 07:20
Whoever is making this list and going around playing these ideas needs to quit being a douche. So many people need to watch Jervis' video and if they all did, the GW site would crash from overload.

Yes, cheese exists and yes things can break the game. Simple solution. Don't use them. Solution to people playing them? Don't play THEM. Tell them to go play Magic.

Vandelan
15-07-2010, 07:20
No, since the choochoo line is 5 ranks of 1, the white lion is only in b2b contact with 3 halberdiers max, so 3 attacks, 6 with step up, white lions strike first with 2 attacks and reduce me to 4-5 attacks which usually 2-3 hits, and 2 wounds where one may be saved. Still enough to last 2-3 rounds of combat.

This rule doesn't exist anymore. You get your full attacks unless there are no models directly behind the models in combat, or if the casualties are great enough to start taking from the front rank, and that's only after every other rank has been depleted.

larabic
15-07-2010, 07:22
5 ranks of 1? How come your cannon doesn't solve this problem? I mean the great eagles shouldn't get there for a turn or two.

minionboy
15-07-2010, 07:30
Not a complaint about the STank really, but when I see one on the field, the gloves come off.

kiron
15-07-2010, 07:32
5 ranks of 1? How come your cannon doesn't solve this problem? I mean the great eagles shouldn't get there for a turn or two.

My opponent is a skilled enough player that he won't send them vulnerable until the machines are taken care of, that's when the white lions need to start tarpitting my halberdiers since my halberdiers won't reach the HE lines for 2-3 turns. Really, u still get full attacks back despite casualties...i didn't see that rule...

Vandelan
15-07-2010, 07:32
Not a complaint about the STank really, but when I see one on the field, the gloves come off.

I dunno, playing like that seems less like taking the gloves off, and more like putting spikes on the gloves and then spitting in your opponent's face...

Revlid
15-07-2010, 07:36
Not a complaint about the STank really, but when I see one on the field, the gloves come off.
ONE STank.
If it were two, or one and a WAltar, fair enough.

As for the White Lions, I'm not sure how your cannon haven't wiped them out if they're in 1x5 formation. Cannon on the WL, Mortar on the Spearmen, Pistoliers guarding the warmachines. Load up on Hexes etc for Teclis.

Also, the combat exploit he's using with the WL doesn't exist anymore, as Vandelan has pointed out.

Miredorf
15-07-2010, 07:38
Nice, your friend is good at making the rules look retarded (if they needed any help).

All i can say is that he should try list that go better with the ''spirit of the game''. Good luck.

PeG
15-07-2010, 07:39
use cannons for the lions and maybe add a couple of shooting detachments for killing eagles. That way you dont have to "waste" shots froma larger shooting unit to kill a single bird.

Finally as others have said you should get 6-7 attacks against the lions since losses no longer decrease the number of models who can fight as long as you have enough models in base BtB and directly behind them.

NecroNurgle
15-07-2010, 07:41
Really, u still get full attacks back despite casualties...i didn't see that rule...

Aaaaaaand, that's why you lost. Casualties are removed from the back. If there are men left in the unit they step up to take their attacks. Speed bumps generally don't work anymore. Only small units of stubborn things can do it and even then, they can get a bad turn and die in one combat, acting more like a catapult than a speed bump.

minionboy
15-07-2010, 07:42
I dunno, playing like that seems less like taking the gloves off, and more like putting spikes on the gloves and then spitting in your opponent's face...


ONE STank.
If it were two, or one and a WAltar, fair enough.

As for the White Lions, I'm not sure how your cannon haven't wiped them out if they're in 1x5 formation. Cannon on the WL, Mortar on the Spearmen, Pistoliers guarding the warmachines. Load up on Hexes etc for Teclis.

Also, the combat exploit he's using with the WL doesn't exist anymore, as Vandelan has pointed out.

Well ever since the STank became T10, I've had a hell of a time with it. My minotaurs, ironguts, bolt throwers, stonethrowers, etc., are now wounding on 6's for no apparent reason, not to mention it's cannon doing D6 instead of D3 wounds now. If someone wants to use one that's fine by me, but don't expect me to come up with a friendly list to beat it with.

Frosty_TK
15-07-2010, 07:44
I may be blind, I probably am, but I can't find a rule in the errata or High Elf armybook, that let's you play 10 Eagles. As far as I know, there may only be 4 of them, and 3 units of white lions. The page concerning the army composition that once allowed High Elves to take more rare and elite units should be completely ignored as per the errata.

Furthermore, your opponent is an... ah never mind. I guess you can't stop playing against him?

Now can someone please point me to the "elite" rule?

Vandelan
15-07-2010, 07:46
Well ever since the STank became T10, I've had a hell of a time with it. My minotaurs, ironguts, bolt throwers, stonethrowers, etc., are now wounding on 6's for no apparent reason, not to mention it's cannon doing D6 instead of D3 wounds now. If someone wants to use one that's fine by me, but don't expect me to come up with a friendly list to beat it with.

I'd expect you to come up with a competitive list. The point I'm trying to make is that the High Elf player didn't make a competitive list, but rather made an abusive list that any respectable player would stray away from making.

Vandelan
15-07-2010, 07:47
I may be blind, I probably am, but I can't find a rule in the errata or High Elf armybook, that let's you play 10 Eagles. As far as I know, there may only be 4 of them, and 3 units of white lions. The page concerning the army composition that once allowed High Elves to take more rare and elite units should be completely ignored as per the errata.

Furthermore, your opponent is an... ah never mind. I guess you can't stop playing against him?

Now can someone please point me to the "elite" rule?

First page of the errata. Check the very end of the first column, this should guide you to the top of the second column, and this explains the reason High Elf armies can take 10 Eagles.

Wakerofgods
15-07-2010, 07:48
Wow... that is a really unfriendly list.

It's not the games fault, your friend is a jerk if he is playing that and your not enjoying it...

Isfimbur
15-07-2010, 07:49
I agree with you Kiron. I don't thing that t10 tank is that bad concidering. Even thou I don't like the idea with anything at t10. Becouse s10 should never have to wound anything on a 4+. There should always be a way to be stronger then someones toughness. t10 basicly says "a stray arrow or a comet from outer space hitting you at a freakishly high speed has about the same chance to inflict damage on you." :wtf: But its not game breaking or OP, just silly. I like the new thank compaired to the old one.

Vandelan
15-07-2010, 07:53
To be fair, everything is wounded on a 6 now, so I still have a hard time believing it's hard to kill a STank when a mass number of hits can do the trick when it comes to it. That and that the STank loses its effectiveness rapidly once it has started to take damage.

xeno106
15-07-2010, 08:00
Moreover, how come that the detachments are not flank charging the guys? Or shooting them down on the charge?

HeroFox
15-07-2010, 08:04
Afraid of Eagles? lol wtf.

1. Who the hell has 10 Eagles? They're 20 bucks a piece.
2. Afraid of S4 attacks? wow.

Vandelan
15-07-2010, 08:11
Afraid of Eagles? lol wtf.

1. Who the hell has 10 Eagles? They're 20 bucks a piece.
2. Afraid of S4 attacks? wow.

I believe you're forgetting the precedent established in the case of Flyers V. War Machines.

enigma-96
15-07-2010, 08:13
Afraid of Eagles? lol wtf.

1. Who the hell has 10 Eagles? They're 20 bucks a piece.
2. Afraid of S4 attacks? wow.

Eagles are pwn in this edition. Not only do they f with warmachines, but they also force you to present a flank to the High Elf army if you charge them. Because you have to rank to the enemy now it's very easy for eagles to be placed in such a way that charging them leads to you exposing your flank. And if you don't charge them then they get behind you and start fing your little units up.

I don't know why the faq for high elves didn't just say that the elite rule allowed ONE extra duplicate for every item, I.E. 3 dupes of a rare, 4 of a special, that's what it was in 7th (essentially) and it worked fine. Same with the Stank, it might have needed a little boost (thunderstomp and T7 should have been fine) but why does it now take less damage from a shaggoth than a similar amount of point of gobbos :wtf:.

*edit Then again 10 eagles is nothing compared to 5 bolt throwers, holy **** my buddy proxyied this on me and we agreed that I would murder him if he ever did it again. That was ridiculous.

HeroFox
15-07-2010, 08:16
Dude, stop kidding me.

Stop taking so many Warmachines then.

enigma-96
15-07-2010, 08:19
Dude, stop kidding me.

Stop taking so many Warmachines then.

Implying that 10 eagles wouldn't wreck most basic infantry if they all charge in the rear and flanks while a larger unit hit the front?

Dude stop kidding me, you clearly don't understand how good 10 eagles can be even if a single warmachine isn't taken.

Kuja
15-07-2010, 08:21
Although taking 10 eagles is very abusive, the real problem I see here is that your opponnent list just looks especially designed for defeating your list :shifty:. For a little change (well, not that little point wise...), I would recomend you to remove a unit of halbardiers and the two detachments, add other unit of ten crossbowmen in two ranks of five, and then take as many empire heroes on pegassus as you can.

I don't see anything wrong in taking four warmachines for an empire army, because the OP is playing with a list that he built for using against different armies.

macdaddy
15-07-2010, 08:27
lol, i played a game last week where he player had 6 bolt throwers and 50 sea guard. the rest were 3 25 man units of swordmasters and lords and heros

Ovassilias
15-07-2010, 08:30
i think Kuja is right here.

That guy looks like he is using an anti-list for your warmachines and small pistolier units.

give him the "same" poison by removing them all and spam crossbowmen and pistoliers in units of 20, banner, musician. 10x10 to max shooting and free reforms with the musician.

T3 elves are not famous against mass shooting and those eagles will run to hide.

I know its lame but your "friend" is using a list tailored to counter yours.

Razhem
15-07-2010, 08:31
It's not the games fault, your friend is a jerk if he is playing that and your not enjoying it...
I could make a full thesis about what is wrong with this phrase.

Also, love how the new rules not being the incorruptable gospel of Christ himself and can still be cheesed of in very stupid ways get a "free pass" because the opponent is a douche, not because they are still badly thought out.

Anardakil
15-07-2010, 08:32
How old is your opponent? 14? :P

HeroFox
15-07-2010, 08:33
Implying that 10 eagles wouldn't wreck most basic infantry if they all charge in the rear and flanks while a larger unit hit the front?

Dude stop kidding me, you clearly don't understand how good 10 eagles can be even if a single warmachine isn't taken.

I would get bitter too if I lost to 10 Eagles with an OBVIOUSLY tailored list.

2 attacks, I4, WS5, has a Stomp Attack. No saves, T4, 3 Wounds, no saves of any kind.

Even with moderate shooting and magic, you should be able to kill half of them. Come on guy, gimme a break.

minionboy
15-07-2010, 08:37
Implying that 10 eagles wouldn't wreck most basic infantry if they all charge in the rear and flanks while a larger unit hit the front?

Dude stop kidding me, you clearly don't understand how good 10 eagles can be even if a single warmachine isn't taken.

Even if all 10 got in flanks and rears of a unit, it would be steadfast. It's not 7th edition we're playing here.

Also, the comment about everything wounding on 6's is kinda silly. Even if the STank remained T6, it would only mean it could now be wounded by Str 1&2 attacks. Now, everything that was needed to damage it wounds on 6's as well, which makes your designated can opener no more effective at wounding than a gnoblar.

The way everyone I play with see's it, if you're going to take a STank, then you're going for blood. I actually applaud the HE player, he is using the tools he has available to take the thing down, now that bolt throwers need 6's to wound. Besides, pot calling the kettle black? 2 Mortars, 2 cannons, 3 units of pistoliers and a STank? You really want to have a debate over a cheesy army list?

Another note, without players pushing the new lists to the limit, it is hard to see where the limits are. Hopefully more people will make balls-out lists so we can really give 8th a good stress test.

EDIT:

How old is your opponent? 14? :P

Player A: Well I'm going to take 2 cannons, 2 mortars, 15 pistoliers and a STank!
Player B: Well I'm going to take 10 Great Eagles!
Player A: Well my dad can beat up your dad!
Player B: Nuh uh!

and so on...

Dokushin
15-07-2010, 08:41
I've played I think eight games vs. High Elves. Most of them ended on turn 3 with his entire army wiped off the board. One of them started with my 500 point mage priest failing five ward saves and dying and me losing two other units to freak shooting -- that ended in a draw.

I don't think the Elite Army rule is going to tip the cart too far.

Re: eagles, come on. They have 3 wounds at T4, no armor, can't break ranks, don't have ASF, and can't really put out serious wounds. They make excellent harassers and flank-bonus chargers, but ten of them is going to be five hundred points worth of can't kill anything and will fold up to light shooting.

Re: conga lines, the problem came exclusively from not using step-up rules; shouldn't be any real trouble when games are played properly.

But, for the OP -- to echo the common conclusion, your problem stems from the fact that your opponent knows what you are bringing, and is bringing what he needs to destroy it. It's a natural reaction; just change your list up, try new things. Never play the same list twice in a row -- once people can predict you, you've already lost. It has nothing to do with the Elite Army rule, and everything to do with his knowing beforehand what he'll be facing.

Nicha11
15-07-2010, 08:46
I struggle to believe Empire cannot cope with the mentioned list.
You can SPAM crossbowmen and annhilate his list.
Also pistoliers aren't great at assasinating characters, stick a grandmaster with 9 knights charge Teclis and blow him away.

Keltheos
15-07-2010, 08:58
I could make a full thesis about what is wrong with this phrase.

Also, love how the new rules not being the incorruptable gospel of Christ himself and can still be cheesed of in very stupid ways get a "free pass" because the opponent is a douche, not because they are still badly thought out.

Well said.

Don't blame a player for using the tools handed to him by the designers.

Ask him not to do it again, but don't blame him for it.

Nothing's a bigger copout for lazy game design than 'spirit of the game'.

Kuja
15-07-2010, 08:59
I could make a full thesis about what is wrong with this phrase.

Also, love how the new rules not being the incorruptable gospel of Christ himself and can still be cheesed of in very stupid ways get a "free pass" because the opponent is a douche, not because they are still badly thought out.

This time is not a problem of the rules, because that high elf list is incredible bad against lots of list out there and I definetly don't expect it to be used by a good player in a tournament or against a lot of armies. The problem here is just his "friend" playing in a very unfriendly way in a "friendly" game.

Frosty_TK
15-07-2010, 08:59
First page of the errata. Check the very end of the first column, this should guide you to the top of the second column, and this explains the reason High Elf armies can take 10 Eagles.

Okay, that rule was completely missing in the first german errata, which is the one I still had for reference... Thank you very much.

If you want to pay him back, suddenly play without a warmachine and more regiments. He's gonna look in vain for a target for his 500 points of eagles...

yabbadabba
15-07-2010, 09:06
I could make a full thesis about what is wrong with this phrase.
Also, love how the new rules not being the incorruptable gospel of Christ himself and can still be cheesed of in very stupid ways get a "free pass" because the opponent is a douche, not because they are still badly thought out. If you feel it is necessary for a model company to tell you how to behave then maybe you need to spend some more time looking at yourself and less time looking at the company?

There are plenty of wargames which are very tight. Indeed there are some wargamers who I have met in Napoleonics who will not play you if you do not have the right button, cuffs and facings for the regiments are the battle - let alone the right regiments.

GW likes to think we are grown up enough to choose sensibly.

Isfimbur
15-07-2010, 09:18
Not to offent the OP or anything. But I can imagine your friend sitting at a HE forum and asking "how can I hand it to my tank shoving, mortar flinging cheeseball empire playing friend?". And they all go "conga line lions and birds dude." ;)

What im trying to imply is that it seems to me that your list is in the same divition. If you like that kind of competitve types of games I suggest the same thing as most others here. Skipp the warmachines next time so that the eagles will be sort of a waste.
If you don't, another possibility is to scale the competitivness of your own list down a notch, hoping he will follow. And I bet he will after a game of two.

Kuja
15-07-2010, 09:22
Not to offent the OP or anything. But I can imagine your friend sitting at a HE forum and asking "how can I hand it to my tank shoving, mortar flinging cheeseball empire playing friend?". And they all go "conga line lions and birds dude." ;)

What im trying to imply is that it seems to me that your list is in the same divition. If you like that kind of competitve types of games I suggest the same thing as most others here. Skipp the warmachines next time so that the eagles will be sort of a waste.
If you don't, another possibility is to scale the competitivness of your own list down a notch, hoping he will follow. And I bet he will after a game of two.

Are you kidding? What is cheessy with that empire list?

Deathjester
15-07-2010, 09:27
Jeez i don't see what's wrong with that list.... even a reasonable amount of shooting:
3/4 units of crossbows / hand gunners should be able to take down one eagle per turn / unit.

Then add to that a pair of cannon which should kill one each / turn.

So getting 1st turn with 3 units of crossbows and 2 cannons should mean that there are 0 left by the end of turn 2....

Seriously, its people and not lists which bring this game into disrepute. People complaining that makers of lists like this are douches and the like. Seriously grow up yourself, and build a list which counters it & hammer it into the ground.

It's not a challenge to beat lists like this, it's just a challenge when you're limiting yourself by essentially making up your own rules!

Isfimbur
15-07-2010, 09:36
Are you kidding? What is cheessy with that empire list?

Well yes, I am kidding. But I can imagine him (the HE player) thinking it is cheesy. I have met more then 1 person in my life that has said worse about less annoying empire lists than that. As someone said earlier "When I see a STank, the gloves comes off."
I don't usually jump to conclusions, but Im going to anyway. I think this HEs try at an anti-empire list is a result of getting beaten a couple of times or a general "lol 2 great cannons, STank and mortals lol lol lol" attitude.

If anyone think that I was implying that it was wrong of the Empire player to field his list, Im sorry. That was not the point I was trying to make. I was trying to say that if he steps up and counters the HEs counter list he will start something messy. Winning isn't everything.

Zaonite
15-07-2010, 09:36
Seriously, its people and not lists which bring this game into disrepute. People complaining that makers of lists like this are douches and the like. Seriously grow up yourself, and build a list which counters it & hammer it into the ground.



I agree to a certain extent. At our local club, most lists are quite balanced.
All I'd do is change my tactics and smash his face in.
Against people we play frequently we go all out and have fun with the lists, we take the beardiest, cheesiest lists we can think of.

Kuja
15-07-2010, 09:41
Seriously, its people and not lists which bring this game into disrepute. People complaining that makers of lists like this are douches and the like. Seriously grow up yourself, and build a list which counters it & hammer it into the ground.

It's not a challenge to beat lists like this, it's just a challenge when you're limiting yourself by essentially making up your own rules!

It seems like some people doesn't understand the concept of a FRIENDLY game.


Well yes, I am kidding. But I can imagine him (the HE player) thinking it is cheesy. I have met more then 1 person in my life that has said worse about less annoying empire lists than that. As someone said earlier "When I see a STank, the gloves comes off."
I don't usually jump to conclusions, but Im going to anyway. I think this HEs try at an anti-empire list is a result of getting beaten a couple of times or a general "lol 2 great cannons, STank and mortals lol lol lol" attitude.

If anyone think that I was implying that it was wrong of the Empire player to field his list, Im sorry. That was not the point I was trying to make. I was trying to say that if he steps up and counters the HEs counter list he will start something messy. Winning isn't everything.

I see your point, but that wouldn't be the fault of the OP.

Razhem
15-07-2010, 10:11
GW likes to think we are grown up enough to choose sensibly.

Seeing the age demographic they are aiming for, I highly doubt it. An apologetic attitude like that is what brings forth mediocrity and makes it thrive.

They just want a rules frame that allows them to sell models. That is not bad by itself by no means. But they have decades of experience yet still manage to make very irregular game rules. I know you are one of the more pro GW members in these forums and consider that a sloppy ruleset should not be rightened because players should control themselves. I on the other hand consider that an aberration.

I also find it deliciously ironic that people who defended this edition as the ender of strange crap respond with "bad player" when he has needed less than a month to bring a list that is an eyebrow raiser that takes advantage of a lot of small rules. News flash, he ain't the only one who will find other combos and chickanery that would seem absurd. Don't get me wrong, that elf list doesn't seem that scary to me, but it's still pretty much showing glaring weaknesses in the rules and faq thought involved.

Spawn of Icarus
15-07-2010, 10:17
well i nearly convinced my high elf playing friend that he wanted to build a 4k army because of elite army (as we both thought the idea of 10 repeater bolt throwers was funny as hell)

ChaosVC
15-07-2010, 10:25
Cheesy players calling out on cheesy players for being cheesy. It's awesome!

And this is why warseer is so damn entertaining to read when you are bored...

minionboy
15-07-2010, 10:27
If anyone think that I was implying that it was wrong of the Empire player to field his list, Im sorry. That was not the point I was trying to make. I was trying to say that if he steps up and counters the HEs counter list he will start something messy. Winning isn't everything.

I don't think there was anything wrong with either list, they both fit within what is legal to field for either army.

I just don't like when the Empire player took an obviously hard list and complains when he loses to another hard list. Neither of those lists are really in the "friendly" zone.


Cheesy players calling out on cheesy players for being cheesy. It's awesome!

I love it!

Memnos
15-07-2010, 10:33
I don't think there was anything wrong with either list, they both fit within what is legal to field for either army.

I just don't like when the Empire player took an obviously hard list and complains when he loses to another hard list.

Here here! Both players brought more competitive lists and one beat the other. There's no shame in that for either party.

Frankly, I think my Beastman army would walk over his high elf armylist with the exception of Teclis, who is the only thing in that list that can't be walked over by infantry hordes.

yabbadabba
15-07-2010, 10:38
Seeing the age demographic they are aiming for, I highly doubt it. An apologetic attitude like that is what brings forth mediocrity and makes it thrive. I was under the impression I was dicussing with an adult, in which case my comment holds water. As for younger gamers, a more open, flexible and choice driven ruleset and army list will do more for their development and understanding as wargamers as a prescribed and restrictive rules set.
I don't have an apologetic attitude, I have an attitude that seeks the best in every situation so that I and others around me gain form that situation. Banging your head on GW's wailing wall will only end up in you hurting your head.


They just want a rules frame that allows them to sell models. That is not bad by itself by no means. But they have decades of experience yet still manage to make very irregular game rules. I know you are one of the more pro GW members in these forums and consider that a sloppy ruleset should not be rightened because players should control themselves. I on the other hand consider that an aberration. Then play elsewhere. To be honest mate, this is no argument, as your own quote has outlined that experience has proven to you that GW cannot produce a game that satisfies you needs. I am sure there are others elsewhere which will.
In addition to which I am not pro GW. I am pro-choice in wargaming and I tend to present the other side of the argument in often myopic and one sided discussions as well as question the validity of statements that are purely opinion driven but presented as fact. There is a difference and it is important that even in situations where GW are blatantly out of touch (pricing, campaigns etc) that a balanced p.o.v. is considered.


I also find it deliciously ironic that people who defended this edition as the ender of strange crap respond with "bad player" when he has needed less than a month to bring a list that is an eyebrow raiser that takes advantage of a lot of small rules. News flash, he ain't the only one who will find other combos and chickanery that would seem absurd. Don't get me wrong, that elf list doesn't seem that scary to me, but it's still pretty much showing glaring weaknesses in the rules and faq thought involved. There is nothing wrong with that army list. A different army selection would have torn it apart. People are critiquing the misapplication of rules (ok) and of the attitude of the player (not ok as no one knows him).
While no doubt, knowing GW, you can drive a bus through some of the rules loopholes, this is a game that presents a paradigm shift that I am generally in favour of, especially after 2 editions of highly unsatisfactory fantasy gaming. Others have different opinions, Kiron being one. I believe that Math Hammer is a comfort blanket and the real impact of this edition won't be understood for some time yet.

Shiodome
15-07-2010, 10:40
I like this HE list, i want to play against it with my goblins :D

DaemonReign
15-07-2010, 10:45
I may be blind, I probably am, but I can't find a rule in the errata or High Elf armybook, that let's you play 10 Eagles. As far as I know, there may only be 4 of them, and 3 units of white lions. The page concerning the army composition that once allowed High Elves to take more rare and elite units should be completely ignored as per the errata.

Furthermore, your opponent is an... ah never mind. I guess you can't stop playing against him?

Now can someone please point me to the "elite" rule?

Ahh.. This makes me think of the good old days when everything was up for debate!

"Oh come on! Doomdivers should not have to guess their range! They are up there in the air themselves for christ's sake, they can spot their target!"

I remember we finally decided that Doomdivers didn't have to guess range, it took GW like five editions to follow on that (hehe) but for some reason All warmachines suddenly has the rule.

Same thing with the old flying high rule.. We decided that "hey, if someone comes charging from flying high there's no reason why he wouldn't be able to charge a unit on the ground IN THE REAR.."

haha..

Alot of fun that was, getting an unmounted dragon or an "allied" Bloodthirster up the ****..

Anyways, this is why we are scarred for life as adults.. We can't abide any houserules what-so-ever, everyone just goes coldsweatin'..:p

Kuja
15-07-2010, 10:49
I just don't like when the Empire player took an obviously hard list and complains when he loses to another hard list. Neither of those lists are really in the "friendly" zone.

Can you tell me what do you think is obviously hard about that lists?

Gazak Blacktoof
15-07-2010, 10:58
Can you tell me what do you think is hard about that lists?

It looks like a list deigned to blast elves off the board.

Deathjester
15-07-2010, 11:03
It seems like some people doesn't understand the concept of a FRIENDLY game.

Pfft, friendly? If you want friendly then i'll buy you a beer...

But it's a wargame, don't expect me to hold back against you...

It should be a learning experience, which is fun over all to play, however if your not having fun against a particular player you have to ask yourself 3 questions:
1) Is it their army which is making it hard?
If yes:
2)Can i make my army better so their army isn't so annoying?
If no you're probably wrong, what you need to do is find the correct balance.

If No to question 1:
3) Is it the person i'm playing which is making me not have fun?
If yes, what ever army they're playing with, it won't matter it's not going to help you have fun!
If No:
Then what is your problem???

Ultimate Life Form
15-07-2010, 11:08
So are we now going from 'HE are completely screwed' to 'HE are over the top'?

WarSeer is fickle indeed.

Deathjester
15-07-2010, 11:12
So are we now going from 'HE are completely screwed' to 'HE are over the top'?

WarSeer is fickle indeed.

Welcome to the internet!

It's always been the same way...

But you can say similar things about all armies:

8th was driven as the Death of Daemons, however it's looking like they're still top tier. It was also seen as the rise of beastmen.... who remain rubbish...

eveyone over reacts....

Kuja
15-07-2010, 11:14
It looks like a list deigned to blast elves off the board.

Really? I can think in a lot of nastier ways of trying to blast elves off the board with the empire.

GodlessM
15-07-2010, 11:27
To be honest I'd say the reasons you are losing are more along the lines of playing the rules wrong, having a bad Empire list (no offense, but only one shooty unit and Emprie are bound to lose, they are not a combat army) and because of Teclis being in there. 5 White Lions is no speed bump and easily killable. Same with Eagles which taking 10 of is just bad strategy. How does he plan to deal with block units?

Gazak Blacktoof
15-07-2010, 12:07
Really? I can think in a lot of nastier ways of trying to blast elves off the board with the empire.

And retain some combat punch so you're not going to get run over by other armies?

2 mortars and 2 cannons means death to elf blocks and to dragons. You've then got a steam tank left over. Sure it could be more shooty but then that wont win you games agaisnt other armies. I think that most of the pistoliers could go if the army needed to pack more punch in combat and is too flimsy.

Drongol
15-07-2010, 12:42
And retain some combat punch so you're not going to get run over by other armies?

2 mortars and 2 cannons means death to elf blocks and to dragons. You've then got a steam tank left over. Sure it could be more shooty but then that wont win you games agaisnt other armies. I think that most of the pistoliers could go if the army needed to pack more punch in combat and is too flimsy.

So, in other words, this looks like a balanced Empire list, with 2 cannons to deal with big gribblies, 2 mortars to deal with blocks of troops, some close combat blocks to hold things up, and some fast cav disruptors? Not seeing as how it's designed to go up against HEs at all--in fact, I'd say that this is a pretty sub-optimized Empire list (no offense meant to the OP).

The only thing that's even approaching "questionable" is the stank. However, I do not believe that a bunch of internet whiner-types throwing a fit makes a unit questionable, so all in all, I'm not seeing the issue here.

Kuja
15-07-2010, 12:52
Pfft, friendly? If you want friendly then i'll buy you a beer...

But it's a wargame, don't expect me to hold back against you...

Well, for me, it is different. Altough it is called a "Wargame", my actitud will depend on the person against I'm playing and his actitud against me. And If I'm playing against a friend (as the case of the OP), I'll definetly play friendly.


And retain some combat punch so you're not going to get run over by other armies?

2 mortars and 2 cannons means death to elf blocks and to dragons. You've then got a steam tank left over. Sure it could be more shooty but then that wont win you games agaisnt other armies. I think that most of the pistoliers could go if the army needed to pack more punch in combat and is too flimsy.

What Drongol said.

kiron
15-07-2010, 15:48
Okay, i admit, we played the step-up rules wrong. That may have cleared away the lions 1-2 turn quicker. I'm not complaining about the list my opponent brought (it was fun to play against), but the ability to even go that far thanks to GW compounded by ASF, IF Teclis.


To be honest I'd say the reasons you are losing are more along the lines of playing the rules wrong, having a bad Empire list (no offense, but only one shooty unit and Emprie are bound to lose, they are not a combat army) and because of Teclis being in there. 5 White Lions is no speed bump and easily killable. Same with Eagles which taking 10 of is just bad strategy. How does he plan to deal with block units?

Those spearmen blocks chew through anything thanks to str 8 ASF re-roll to hit (there is absolutely nothing you can do about that spell!). Saw it chew through 10 chosen khorne knights the other day like butter (after eagles baiting to reveal their flank around).

And no, his list was NOT anti-mine, his list is an all-comers list which won a tournament I was playing earlier in and lost to with a different point denial empire list. T

he HE list smashed through 2 LM and orc army by making slanns go bye bye with pits and mopping everything else up while for orcs just took out the spear chuckas with warmachine, drew out fanatics with, and set up flank charges with eagles, those eagles are DAMN versatile at 50point a piece while the 2 blocks of spearmen just mopped everything unit up, yes a 30 black orc squad with grimgor after 2 rounds of combat with 20 str 8 ASF, re-roll attacks (grimgor died too).

I am not complaining about the cheesiness of my opponent's list, i'm complaining to tell everyone else to **** off about tank T10 when HE lists can be more beardy than empire in all-comers setting due to elite army rule, ASF, and IF on all spells.

willowdark
15-07-2010, 15:50
How exactly were the Eagles baiting his Knights to expose his flanks. They get a free reform after winning combat.

kiron
15-07-2010, 15:59
How exactly were the Eagles baiting his Knights to expose his flanks. They get a free reform after winning combat.

Class scenario is this, knights move up 14", spearmen 12" away, spearmen moves up 6" and faces direction where eagle will bait knights to and Eagle go 1" in front of knight at odd angle. Knight must charge or go around eagle eating away precious movement. Knight charge, eagle takes it, knight kills the eagle and may overrun or stay there (in this case overunned since failed ld. test and only ranned 7"), but now knights in ackward position due to weird angle of charge revealing flank to spearmen that prepared their direction that way.

Even if free reform facing the spears, a charge from the spears is enough to kill cripple a 10 men chosen khorne squad. 14 WS 4 attacks at str 8 and 3 str 9 WS 6 attacks from BSB with re-roll for BSB. The BSB will get 2.33 hits, and 2 wounds on average while the spears will get 7 hits (4+) and 6 (2+) wounds and 5 (6+ AS) kills so that is 7 dead knights with them dying next round of cc.

Please, if u have no fought against eagles in the hands of a skilled player who understands baiting and flank revealing, do NOT underestimate the power of 10 sacrificial baitable units with 20" movement and potential to be Str 8! They are extremely effective at stalling in a metagame of large infantry units.

unheilig
15-07-2010, 16:06
Warhammer: a gentleman's game played by complete dbags

Sent from my SPH-M900 using Tapatalk

GrimmHammer
15-07-2010, 16:07
how can you loose to that? It looks like a horrible list- Your pistoliers should take care of the white lions np, and the birds wtf? toss in a unit or two of handgunners and or an outrider unit, u'll be fine.

freddieyu
15-07-2010, 16:22
btw flyers do not automatically move 20 now..if i understand they are move 10 march 20, so have to test vs leadership in order to fly 20".

Malorian
15-07-2010, 16:27
Put your warmachines behind your blocks, then back up against the back table edge.

He can't charge them if there isn't room, and with true line of sight yoou can shoot back (especially against eagles).

Odin
15-07-2010, 16:30
No, since the choochoo line is 5 ranks of 1, the white lion is only in b2b contact with 3 halberdiers max, so 3 attacks, 6 with step up, white lions strike first with 2 attacks and reduce me to 4-5 attacks which usually 2-3 hits, and 2 wounds where one may be saved. Still enough to last 2-3 rounds of combat.

And, no we are allowed to have as much cheese as we want, but the purpose was not complaining about cheesiness of my opponent, but the fact that HE has this annoying fluffy rule that breaks the fundamental rule of all armies, slot restrictions, ASF, IF, etc... And people complain about the tank sheesh...

I think your main problem is that you clearly don't know the 8th edition rules. Doesn't matter how many halberdiers the white lion kills, as long as you still have three in base contact with him, and three more directly behind them, you will strike back with all of them, as casualties are removed from the rear. Those white lions will die within a couple of turns, though how they avoid fleeing I don't know.

Seriously, read the rules, and you will discover how very easy it is to beat that very poor HE army.

kiron
15-07-2010, 16:50
I think your main problem is that you clearly don't know the 8th edition rules. Doesn't matter how many halberdiers the white lion kills, as long as you still have three in base contact with him, and three more directly behind them, you will strike back with all of them, as casualties are removed from the rear. Those white lions will die within a couple of turns, though how they avoid fleeing I don't know.

Seriously, read the rules, and you will discover how very easy it is to beat that very poor HE army.

I already admitted, we didn't see that rule in step-up and we will change accordingly, but the white lions still do their job in holding back the infantry unit 1-2 turns since they are ld. 8 stubborn with re-roll.

Odin
15-07-2010, 16:54
I already admitted, we didn't see that rule in step-up and we will change accordingly, but the white lions still do their job in holding back the infantry unit 1-2 turns since they are ld. 8 stubborn with re-roll.

Sorry, I didn't realise the thread ran to 4 pages already!

Pistoliers ought to sort them out in no time. 5 pistoliers, 10 shots, 5 hits, 3+ kills.

But the best advice is not to play against people like this.

Skitter-Squeek
15-07-2010, 17:23
Use the storm banner that will teach those eagles!! Wait a minute wrong army :D In all honesty though any ass hat who plays multi units 1 by 5 deep deserves a swift punch in the balls. As far as the steam tank goes T10 is nothing huge now as anything can wound it on a 6 as mentioned before... examples being Skinks, handgunners, slings, witch elves(ouch), yadda yadda.


Teclis is a nasty bugger no doubt especially when he gets to turn into a Dragon every round :mad:


Squeek

kiron
15-07-2010, 17:43
In all honesty though any ass hat who plays multi units 1 by 5 deep deserves a swift punch in the balls.

Squeek

Why, it's a valid tactic and a good one. Saying deserving a swift punch in the balls shows immaturaty and inability to use the game mechanic effectively.

They sacrifice hitting power for survival (less attacks and less attacks back) and put themselves disadvantaged 1 model against 3 (only stubborn makes them effective since most other units won't do that), what is wrong with that?

P.S. saying pistoliers will take care of white lions have never been on the end of 2-3 eagles charge with pistoliers especially when one could be str 8.

Tokamak
15-07-2010, 17:46
I don't see the use of the white lions. I really don't.

Also the scarecrow banner seems appropriate here. Cheap stuff.

Botjer
15-07-2010, 17:46
An army of chariots ^^

HeroFox
15-07-2010, 17:48
How is this thread still going?


Teclis is a nasty bugger no doubt especially when he gets to turn into a Dragon every round

Why is this still being the talk of the town?

Let me show you how this game will go:

1. Teclis turns into a Dragon. He says Hi.
2. Next turn you throw all your PD at it and he turns back into Teclis, out of a unit, in the open.
3. You shoot Teclis.
4. He asks for a rematch.

In that order. If you have any questions, please see my strategy blog :-/

kiron
15-07-2010, 17:50
How is this thread still going?



Why is this still being the talk of the town?

Let me show you how this game will go:

1. Teclis turns into a Dragon. He says Hi.
2. Next turn you throw all your PD at it and he turns back into Teclis, out of a unit, in the open.
3. You shoot Teclis.
4. He asks for a rematch.

In that order. If you have any questions, please see my strategy blog :-/

Teclis uses lore of shadows, the beast lore is terrible...some people don't know what they are saying.

Skitter-Squeek
15-07-2010, 17:55
Yea I have no Clue what I am saying :rolleyes:, Beast Lore is not terrible mark my words you will see that lore used more then you think. Not for the Dragon spell but the buff spell (+1 strength and toughness) alone is worth it. Your strategy would be fine but remember the dragon can stay in a unit so if you dispell it teclis still is not in the open.




Squeek

kiron
15-07-2010, 17:59
Yea I have no Clue what I am saying :rolleyes:, Beast Lore is not terrible mark my words you will see that lore used more then you think. Not for the Dragon spell but the buff spell (+1 strength and toughness) alone is worth it. Your strategy would be fine but remember the dragon can stay in a unit so if you dispell it teclis still is not in the open.

Squeek

Why would you bother with the buff spell when u can buff ur units +5-6 strength in shadows and not worry about toughness when u are ASF. Also can play catch-a-roo with teclis and BSB to shadow special bonus and not mention taking down warmachines and slanns with pits. Of course, the HE loremaster rule hasn't changed for teclis and not been FAQ so he can still pick the lore after seeing the opponent's army type. Maybe against WE, take fire or heavens :P

SeaSwift
15-07-2010, 18:02
I already admitted, we didn't see that rule in step-up and we will change accordingly, but the white lions still do their job in holding back the infantry unit 1-2 turns since they are ld. 8 stubborn with re-roll.

How do they get a re-roll?

And that is 75pts for a very expensive hold-up block.

I would shoot those WL units with that STank cannon.

Skitter-Squeek
15-07-2010, 18:04
I am not talking about Beast for High elves only... Imagine the hurt a Saurus unit with spears that are S5 T5. The fact that you can make an Elf as hard as an Orc Big Un with a Sig Spell is Flippin Awesome, like I said before you will see a lot more people using that when it sinks in how awesome that buff is.


Oh and one more thing yea the leadership replacing strength is nice but you are not garunteed to get it as you are garunteed to get the buff spell with Beasts, 100% certain over maybe getting a spell wins in my book anyday.


Squeek



Also mind you if those ASF elves don't kill the entire unit off the bat they are gunna get hit back and +1 toughness all of a sudden doesn't look so bad.

kiron
15-07-2010, 18:05
How do they get a re-roll?

And that is 75pts for a very expensive hold-up block.

I would shoot those WL units with that STank cannon.

BSB nearby. Usually the tank is charged by one eagle (and must waste it's next turn killing the eagle) on the turn the lions go into 1x5 formation, u don't start in that formation since that would be suicidal against cannons. Please don't think the army as so static or units in isolation with no support!

enyoss
15-07-2010, 18:10
White Lions in a 1x5 conga line?

Oh, I love it when I get the chance to play this one...

Drtyrm
15-07-2010, 18:17
Are you playing Okkam's Mindrazor correctly? The way I read the entry it states use your Leadership for your Strength when rolling to wound. It doesn't say your Strength becomes your Leadership. I don't think the save modifier would change.

HeroFox
15-07-2010, 18:19
Yea I have no Clue what I am saying :rolleyes:, Beast Lore is not terrible mark my words you will see that lore used more then you think. Not for the Dragon spell but the buff spell (+1 strength and toughness) alone is worth it. Your strategy would be fine but remember the dragon can stay in a unit so if you dispell it teclis still is not in the open.




Squeek

I don't think I ever said Beast Lore is terrible.

I know how to use my magic, thanks for the suggestions though :)

Skitter-Squeek
15-07-2010, 18:26
I was just replying to the "some people don't know what they are saying comment." :shifty:



Squeek

minionboy
15-07-2010, 18:53
Why would you bother with the buff spell when u can buff ur units +5-6 strength in shadows and not worry about toughness when u are ASF. Also can play catch-a-roo with teclis and BSB to shadow special bonus and not mention taking down warmachines and slanns with pits. Of course, the HE loremaster rule hasn't changed for teclis and not been FAQ so he can still pick the lore after seeing the opponent's army type. Maybe against WE, take fire or heavens :P

HE have to worry about toughness now more than ever. Lets pretend Swordmasters wipe out half an enemy unit, now the remainder of the enemy unit strikes back in 2+ ranks against T3 and 5+ save... Not good news for the elves.

As far as the congo lines go, why not simply shoot them with one of your cannons, or mortars, or pistoliers, or crossbowmen? Pistoliers in particular are one of the nastiest units in the empire book for 8th, they can fire their pistols on the march 10 times at 12" range! I think if you actually take the time to read the 8th edition book, you may discover that the game is a whole lot different, not just army %'s.

Blitz001
15-07-2010, 19:00
i really dont understand how you are having any trouble with that list...if has 5 ranks of one guy shouldnt your steam tank being killing one regiment a turn with your cannon? He will also never get any rank bonus, or outnumbering with his guys...shoot the birds with your pistoliers, and crossbows and kill his mans with your mans..really not that hard.


Teclis uses lore of shadows, the beast lore is terrible...some people don't know what they are saying.

ROFL...for instance the guy who wrote this does not know what he is saying...Lore of Beasts is fantastic even ignoring turning your guy into a monster.

Blitz001
15-07-2010, 19:02
double post sry

Skitter-Squeek
15-07-2010, 19:19
It's cool people make premature posts, I do it from time to time as well :p. I think we all agree though that Buff Spells of any kind in any lore at the moment are awesome and worth looking at. Personally I am still trying to find a worthy reason to take lore of fire except that you can make your artillery as an empire player magical and flaming :evilgrin:.



Squeek!


And to stay on subject I think High Elves are not over the top and are easily in line with a lot of other armies as far as tiers go. I am suprised people aren't posting more about Lizardmen Slaans :cries:.

Volker the Mad Fiddler
15-07-2010, 19:42
Why, it's a valid tactic and a good one. Saying deserving a swift punch in the balls shows immaturaty and inability to use the game mechanic effectively.

They sacrifice hitting power for survival (less attacks and less attacks back) and put themselves disadvantaged 1 model against 3 (only stubborn makes them effective since most other units won't do that), what is wrong with that?

SNIP

Well what is wrong with it is that it uses game mechanics as an exploit- it creates a situation which is totally unrealistic within the created reality of the game. It is like the skeleton conga line- one is not sacrificing anything as 5 White Lions aren't going to kill many troops anyway and it exploiting the fact that without lapping around there is no way for an opponent to bring more troops into combat from the unit even if has many of them. Effectively, by standing in a line, the White Lions are gaining two free pieces of terrain which create a bottleneck stopping the majority of an enemy unit from reaching combat when there is nothing to prevent them from doing so.

Remember, Warhammer is not Magic:The Gathering. There are far too many variables and situations in Warhammer to have any freedom AND iron clad tournament ready rules [unlike Magic in which there are actually fewer situations and freedom is severely curtailed so that the rules can be designed as a competitive endevour]. If you cannot see why the conga line is a exploit that is clearly against the spirit of the game for anyone who has an interest in the game outside of just winning then you need to find a group interested in simply winning. Some people may enjoy that [though are many better and cheaper games in which to play in that manner] but it will not define all groups.

'A swift punch in the balls' is a crude, and hopefully exaggerated, expression of that fact that such exploits and rules lawyering is not welcome in all groups. I for one would not play anyone who continued to use conga lines because I am more interested in the narrative of the game than in believing that warhammer is an incredibly well written ruleset and finding an exploit is a reflection of 'skill'.

Skitter-Squeek
15-07-2010, 19:53
Of Course I Would not actually punch a person in the balls for that but You get my drift and actually conga lines aren't that bad if a person knows how to deal with them. A lot of people don't and that is why I was a little frustrated.


Squeek

CrystalSphere
15-07-2010, 20:05
This new change is another low blow for me at least, i am an high elf player but i donīt play them much these days (i just donīt like the rules they have) and now with this change i think i will be playing them even less. Now we donīt only have superspeed but we also can leave at home the spears/archers and go full of elites, so much for the background of "the core of the army is the citizen levy". Good work GW.:shifty:

yabbadabba
15-07-2010, 20:08
This new change is another low blow for me at least, i am an high elf player but i donīt play them much these days (i just donīt like the rules they have) and now with this change i think i will be playing them even less. Now we donīt only have superspeed but we also can leave at home the spears/archers and go full of elites, so much for the background of "the core of the army is the citizen levy". Good work GW.:shifty: Can you point out the bit where it says you have to overdose on specials and rares?

In which case you can still play your army the way you would like to.

CrystalSphere
15-07-2010, 20:51
Can you point out the bit where it says you have to overdose on specials and rares?

In which case you can still play your army the way you would like to.

Look i know, it is not mandatory, but it is very close to saying "i like dwarfs but i donīt like warmachines, so i will only use infantry". I know i can use an army with a lot of spearmen/archers, but i would be handicaping myself that way.

I am not worried about not being able to deploy the army i like (because obviously it is not mandatory) but what iīm worried about is the direction gw is taking the high elves, which i donīt like at all (see always strike first). I think iīve said it before but if the next army book continue the same trend i think i will consider selling those minis and look for something i enjoy more to play as.

Volker the Mad Fiddler
15-07-2010, 20:58
Look i know, it is not mandatory, but it is very close to saying "i like dwarfs but i donīt like warmachines, so i will only use infantry". I know i can use an army with a lot of spearmen/archers, but i would be handicaping myself that way.

I am not worried about not being able to deploy the army i like (because obviously it is not mandatory) but what iīm worried about is the direction gw is taking the high elves, which i donīt like at all (see always strike first). I think iīve said it before but if the next army book continue the same trend i think i will consider selling those minis and look for something i enjoy more to play as.

Are you really handicapping yourself though? I'm sorry, but High Elf spears are still an impressive unit- 4 ranks, ASF and usually re-roll hits. Only str 3, but HE can have a strong magic phase and there are enough augments/hexes out there that really help 'core' units.

Damocles8
15-07-2010, 21:03
if you run the halderbdiers 10 wide you'd get 9-10 attacks back....

Punjoke
15-07-2010, 21:06
It sounds like your real problem is Teclis, but your opponents army is small enough that you should be able to handle it easily once he's out of the way.

If he's forcing out Mindrazor, a level 1/2 wizard with the Feedback scroll probably won't kill him but it should take off a wound or two. Add that in with a Level 4 Death wizard with a Power Scroll and Laniph/Bjuna him out of the game (Laniph would actually be preferable here thanks to the extra range.)

Lars Porsenna
15-07-2010, 21:22
Are you really handicapping yourself though? I'm sorry, but High Elf spears are still an impressive unit- 4 ranks, ASF and usually re-roll hits. Only str 3, but HE can have a strong magic phase and there are enough augments/hexes out there that really help 'core' units.

I agree. Not only spears get a boost, but so do bows in this edition. Use Lothern Sea Guard, and not only do you charge with 3 ranks (and fight with 4), with ASF and re-rolls, but you also get volley fire too. So if you run a 40-man unit of LSG, not only can you have 30 attacks on the charge (40 fighting, often with re-rolls, in 4 ranks), but you get 30 bowshots as well!

I haven't had a chance to run HE yet in this edition, but in the last I didn't even run spearmen at all (took all archers for core). This edition really makes the core spearmen and LSG an attractive choice...

Disclaimer: I've collected HE since 4th edition. I'm more excited about them now than ever!

Damon.

theorox
15-07-2010, 21:38
How old is your opponent? 14? :P

Maturity does'nt have much to do with age, really. That would be like saying: "What race is your opponent? *This and that* (I don't think there are any races, but that was just an example)

And yes, i know. You mature with age. But i've never seen an inmature player play this game, and the 10-12 year-olds i have seen have been very nice and mature people. :rolleyes:

So that was indeed very inappropriate. :wtf:

Oh, and i happen to be 14, and i am very mature compared to many adults i know, as well as many members on this site, wich is largely populated by adults.

Also, 14 is not an inmature age if there is one, you start maturing around age 10, generally, but it of course differs from person to person. Then you start to care about what people think, how you look and so on...

Oh, and exchsuse may Enghlisch. :angel: I'm from Sweden.

Theo

And to the OP: I would shake up the list completely, do you use the same list in more than one game? I never do that. Actually, i have probably written 5 times as many armylists than i have played games. It just takes 15 minutes or so for a 2-3k list...so it should'nt be a problem. :)

Cheers mate!

Theo

Ender Shadowkin
15-07-2010, 22:17
Congo lines are pretty lame, but Stubborn got a lot better in the 8th eidtion with the ability to use the generals ld.

I have considered using 3x2 units of White Lions as mini-blocks just to see if some alternate horde tactics are viable (like I said, congos are lame, but if hey all can swing, seams more appropriate). Other armies can do nearly the same thing, Empire can run 3 units of Great swords (bigger min, but cheaper than WL) and couple flagelant blocks. Clog up the middle with all your small stuborn/unbreakable units, counter charge with blocks into the flanks.

RE 10 Eagles... like noted, not a great idea verse take all comers. With the auto-reform after combat the eagles ability to dominate the movement of enemy troops is seriously curtailed. I'd rarely take more than 2. The points are best spent elsewhere.

Captain prophet
15-07-2010, 22:34
Ok I've searched the the thread and I'm surprised no one suggested the Orb of Thunder yet. It remains in play so your first magic phase throw 6 dice at it and hope for irresistible force and watch his eagles walk 2 inches a turn.

Vile Druchii
15-07-2010, 23:09
Are you playing Okkam's Mindrazor correctly? The way I read the entry it states use your Leadership for your Strength when rolling to wound. It doesn't say your Strength becomes your Leadership. I don't think the save modifier would change.

QFT. The Mindrazor says nothing about using the Strength modifier for armour saves, only on 'to wound' rolls. Still, it's an amazing spell on spearmen (of any type!)

Alltaken
15-07-2010, 23:20
I'd say less warmachines (mortars) more shots, normal shots, that'll get those msu dead and taking lots of panic tests

belgarath97
16-07-2010, 02:17
My opponent is a skilled enough player that he won't send them vulnerable until the machines are taken care of, that's when the white lions need to start tarpitting my halberdiers since my halberdiers won't reach the HE lines for 2-3 turns. Really, u still get full attacks back despite casualties...i didn't see that rule...

Ummm you can shoot thru terrain now, or how about supporting charge.

Rabid Bunny 666
16-07-2010, 02:23
No, since the choochoo line is 5 ranks of 1, the white lion is only in b2b contact with 3 halberdiers max, so 3 attacks, 6 with step up, white lions strike first with 2 attacks and reduce me to 4-5 attacks which usually 2-3 hits, and 2 wounds where one may be saved. Still enough to last 2-3 rounds of combat.

And, no we are allowed to have as much cheese as we want, but the purpose was not complaining about cheesiness of my opponent, but the fact that HE has this annoying fluffy rule that breaks the fundamental rule of all armies, slot restrictions, ASF, IF, etc... And people complain about the tank sheesh...

This is the funniest thing i've read in a while, I just love the idea of a queue of Elves waiting to take a swing.

Trains_Get_Robbed
16-07-2010, 03:03
Just waiting for the HE dude to make two of those conga lines P.G to transport the other two W.L into combat -once you start shooting more with cannons-, thus making your cannons absoulutley worthless :D XD

Zaustus
16-07-2010, 03:42
I skimmed a lot of this thread, but are people actually afraid of that HE list? The only worrisome thing is Teclis. The rest of the list is horrible. Just shoot the Eagles and the White Lions, sheesh.

Conga-line White Lions will slow you down, but you should chew through them quickly and your detachments kick their butts, either with countercharges or with stand-and-shoot. I would love it if my opponent did conga-line White Lions against me as Empire.

ghostline
16-07-2010, 07:25
The problem with the eagles is that is that there all individual units. A lot of shots are going to be just wasted on overkilling an eagle...not to mention you need to kill at least 7 on turn 1 if you want to save your war machines.

The_Bureaucrat
16-07-2010, 08:03
A battle wizard with feedback scroll. A Wizard lord with a power scroll. Both lore of life. A hero with featherfoe toric add master engineers/outrider champions with hochland rifles to taste.

Use the feedback scroll on Teclis first spell with 4+ dice. If that doesn't kill him move the wizard lord out of the unit and use the dwellers below with power scroll (something like 98% chance of IF) That gives you a 2/3 chance to kill teclis outright and should kill half the unit. If that doesn't kill him snipe him with the hochland rifles. Should kill him before turn 3. After that mop up the eagles and white lions with a nice size unit with featherfoe toric (eagles have to reroll hits).

Don't bother with mortars or steam tanks. Hell you could beat that army with about 1400 points 9 times out of 10.

Azhrar
16-07-2010, 11:02
Maturity does'nt have much to do with age, really. That would be like saying: "What race is your opponent? *This and that* (I don't think there are any races, but that was just an example)

And yes, i know. You mature with age. But i've never seen an inmature player play this game, and the 10-12 year-olds i have seen have been very nice and mature people. :rolleyes:

So that was indeed very inappropriate. :wtf:

Oh, and i happen to be 14, and i am very mature compared to many adults i know, as well as many members on this site, wich is largely populated by adults.

Also, 14 is not an inmature age if there is one, you start maturing around age 10, generally, but it of course differs from person to person. Then you start to care about what people think, how you look and so on...


Cheers mate!

Theo

This is a classic. By feeling the need to claim that you are more mature than most adults, you prove that you are not.

Trust me, I felt the exactly same when I was your age. When you get older you will look back and see that you were in fact not very mature ^^.

I am not trying to patronise you, just stating that claiming to be "more mature" is very immature. Maturity is not really measurable like that.

I work with kids your age, so I am not pulling this out my ass.

N1AK
16-07-2010, 13:06
Class scenario is this, knights move up 14", spearmen 12" away, spearmen moves up 6" and faces direction where eagle will bait knights to and Eagle go 1" in front of knight at odd angle. Knight must charge or go around eagle eating away precious movement. Knight charge, eagle takes it, knight kills the eagle and may overrun or stay there (in this case overunned since failed ld. test and only ranned 7"), but now knights in ackward position due to weird angle of charge revealing flank to spearmen that prepared their direction that way.


A unit of shock cavalry thrown out in front the main line was out-positioned by multiple enemy units? You could do exactly the same thing using Marauder Horsemen or Hounds (though positioning might be harder) and they're core. you took the decoy, failed an unlucky leadership test and then got hit in the flank by a few hundred point infantry unit buffed by one of the best spells in the game... I don't see the issue.



Even if free reform facing the spears, a charge from the spears is enough to kill cripple a 10 men chosen khorne squad. 14 WS 4 attacks at str 8 and 3 str 9 WS 6 attacks from BSB with re-roll for BSB. The BSB will get 2.33 hits, and 2 wounds on average while the spears will get 7 hits (4+) and 6 (2+) wounds and 5 (6+ AS) kills so that is 7 dead knights with them dying next round of cc.


Even if you ignore the entire of the rest of his army your unit was never going to win against a Spearmen unit buffed by Razor. Teclis continues to be awesome in 8th, and when playing against him how/if you can deal with him will often decide the game.



Please, if u have no fought against eagles in the hands of a skilled player who understands baiting and flank revealing, do NOT underestimate the power of 10 sacrificial baitable units with 20" movement and potential to be Str 8! They are extremely effective at stalling in a metagame of large infantry units.

It's also 500pts and I don't think it's any more effective for that cost than many other alternatives. You're absolutely right that they are effective at stalling large blocks, they should be for that cost. I don't think fielding 10 of them is power gaming.

N1AK
16-07-2010, 13:20
The problem with the eagles is that is that there all individual units. A lot of shots are going to be just wasted on overkilling an eagle...not to mention you need to kill at least 7 on turn 1 if you want to save your war machines.

I'd strongly suggest anyone with Warmachines allocate some form of bodyguard unit to them these days. A block of 16 missile troops (8x2) will hold off normal warmachine hunters. A charge by anything less than 4 Eagles isn't likely to roll over them (1-2 should lose, 3 would be decided by the S&S result).

chamelion 6
16-07-2010, 15:30
:wtf: :wtf: :wtf:

Ok... I've been watching this thread on and off for awhile with a kind of train wreck curiosity... Each venture in here either results in a huge laugh or a major face palm. Often both.

I'm can see where 7th edition broke down. It's also the reason I quit WFB and have a sour view of competative gaming and tourney's in general.

I'm mean here we are playling FUBAR army lists that are far and away from any spirit of the game, embracing tactics that dont represent any viable tactic used in any fantasy book or in real life....

...and then blaming the designers for broken rules?

Legal does not mean acceptable. Just because you can doesn't mean you're supposed to or even that you should. When you divorce the game from what it's supposed to represent its going to fall apart. You get out of it exactly what you put into it.

This thread demonstrates quite well why most of the moaning and groaning surrounds competative and tourney games... Instead of blaming the designers for your games being unfulfilling maybe you sould look at your approach to playing them first.

The game designers aren't your mom. Their job is to supply you with a set of rules to play a game. If you wanna spend your time breaking your toys don't cry when they don't work anymore...

Ok... rant over... :cool:

I'm prepared to take all incoming flames. :)

willowdark
16-07-2010, 15:36
The Battle of Five Armies was largely decided by the actions of a squadron of eagles.

Who's devorcing what from the spirit of the game? As long as the Eagles are there and are painted I think this sounds like an interesting challenge.

And this rant comes from the guy who advocates that players own the game and come up with they're own scenarios and play more cinematic games.

DTimbro
16-07-2010, 15:37
As a thought could you take a couple detachments of pistoleers and upgrade the champion of the unit to the special long rifle that lets you pick any target to attack specifically, including champions or characters. It doesn't allow look out sir rolls if i am remembering correctly, and teclis has two wounds.

chamelion 6
16-07-2010, 16:05
The Battle of Five Armies was largely decided by the actions of a squadron of eagles.

Who's devorcing what from the spirit of the game? As long as the Eagles are there and are painted I think this sounds like an interesting challenge.

And this rant comes from the guy who advocates that players own the game and come up with they're own scenarios and play more cinematic games.

yes... But not with out prep. You can't just take something like the Battle of Five Armies and do it justice in a one off pickup game. An my problem isn't the list, or the game, or the tactics... It's the complaining about the rules and the game design.

I'm all for coloring outside the lines... but you get what you create. If you wanna play the game with 10 eagles or 20 or even a 100, fine. I'll even play you with that list, but understand that is pushing the fringes and there needs to be some flexibility in how you allow that list to function on the table. Some time needs to be spent building a scenario so that a fringe list like that is appropriate to the setting and the situation. I've played games much farther out in left field that this one... When it didn't turn out well we took a look at how we set up the conditions of the scenario, not bitched about the game design in general....

willowdark
16-07-2010, 16:18
Fair enough. Your point was to not bitch about game design. I can appreciate that.

But if competitive play is how you derive your fun then a pick up game is the only chance for you to try an out of the box list. Not everyone wants to invest their hooby time trying to dream up a convoluted scenario just to justify their own composition.

There's an implied premise in the word abuse. It, and the thread in general, refers to competitive gaming. If your only contribution to the thread is to dress gamers down for being competitive then it is certainly fair to call you out on it.

Dark Aly
16-07-2010, 16:20
I struggle to believe Empire cannot cope with the mentioned list.
You can SPAM crossbowmen and annhilate his list.
Also pistoliers aren't great at assasinating characters, stick a grandmaster with 9 knights charge Teclis and blow him away.

issue a challenge too as there is no one capable of excepting other than teclis

chamelion 6
16-07-2010, 16:29
Fair enough. Your point was to not bitch about game design. I can appreciate that.

But if competitive play is how you derive your fun then a pick up game is the only chance for you to try an out of the box list. Not everyone wants to invest their hooby time trying to dream up a convoluted scenario just to justify their own composition.

There's an implied premise in the word abuse. It, and the thread in general, refers to competitive gaming. If your only contribution to the thread is to dress gamers down for being competitive then it is certainly fair to call you out on it.

I agree 100%. You're questioning me on my motives was fair and justified.

My point was to not bitch about game design if your're actively twisting it into a pretzil it was never intended to go into. And I think the defence that it's the designers fault for allowing me to break the game is nonsense. That's like blaming the paper kite designer for letting you jump off a cliff holding one over your head. Gamers need to start taking some responsibility for their messes and stop always blaming the rules for them. If people have fun doing these kinds of games that's all well and good, but threads like this sometimes make me wonder how much fun people are really having. And the blame alwasy seems to shift everywhere other than the players. My only point really is that if you're not having fun maybe you should look at your attitude and how you're approaching the game.

I don't play in tourneys and avoid pickup games because most of the time I'm on a different page than the other player. I don't think they need to conform to my philosophy of the game and I mostly don't enjoy that approach. On the rare occasions I do play a pick up game I try to conform to the general idea as I feel I'm on their turf.

Tae
16-07-2010, 16:38
issue a challenge too as there is no one capable of excepting other than teclis

He is not forced to accept. In fact challenging is the one thing you don't want to do, as due to there being no alternatives Teclis is the one character you'll be forced to move to a non-fighting rank.

jamesgurney100
16-07-2010, 16:44
Dude take an orb of thunder, that will nail the eagles for a turn or 2 and while they can hardly move chuck loads of shooting and spells at them. For teclis try a captain on a horse with full plate and a shield of the gorgon (can attacks be reduced to ZERO!) and i dont mind stanks now, i can just crack's call them :D

g0ddy
16-07-2010, 17:00
I dont know how to reply to this thread.... Im having a hard time figuring out if the OP is actually serious or not.

I can understand that there might be some misunderstanding of the close combat phase going on here that's irritating the empire player but really... the HE list is "not very good".

If there 'was' a 3rd turn of empire shooting I cant imagine there would be very many high elf models left on the board... so what gives?

~ Zilla

willowdark
16-07-2010, 17:02
I think the whole issue is compounded by Teclis casting LoLife spells to buff and regrow the units. I can see how that would be an issue.

He referred to st8 Eagles earlier. That's gotta tell you something.

freddieyu
16-07-2010, 17:06
A battle wizard with feedback scroll. A Wizard lord with a power scroll. Both lore of life. A hero with featherfoe toric add master engineers/outrider champions with hochland rifles to taste.

Use the feedback scroll on Teclis first spell with 4+ dice. If that doesn't kill him move the wizard lord out of the unit and use the dwellers below with power scroll (something like 98% chance of IF) That gives you a 2/3 chance to kill teclis outright and should kill half the unit. If that doesn't kill him snipe him with the hochland rifles. Should kill him before turn 3. After that mop up the eagles and white lions with a nice size unit with featherfoe toric (eagles have to reroll hits).

Don't bother with mortars or steam tanks. Hell you could beat that army with about 1400 points 9 times out of 10.

hey cool tactics...shall note this down

g0ddy
16-07-2010, 17:10
I really don't see it... teclis cant break every rule int he book about magic... he cant resurrect fallen troops on the scale of VC. Theres no way his 1 cast of regrowth a turn can keep up with more than 1 unit of crossbowmen shooting at spear elves. He cant buff his whole army into T5 or T7.

What does a S8 eagle accomplish? (theres even debate about how that spell works...)

Part of me... hopes his opponent is using little origami cranes to represent all those eagle models :p

~ Zilla

Phaedrus
16-07-2010, 18:19
Why, it's a valid tactic and a good one.

Legal, yes. Valid, no. It is absurd. I can think of no clearer case of following the letter of the law while violating the spirit of the law. From any realistic perspective it makes no sense. 30 some odd armed men, with no obstructions between themselves and the enemy, do not stand their twiddling their thumbs while a few of their comrades fight because their opponents are standing in a line. This is a battle, not a deli counter.

Some people seem eager to forget that this is supposed to be representative of a battle, and for that matter one that bears a some resemblance (fireballs and dragons aside) to reality. The more people seek out and exploit loopholes the more the game tends toward nonsensical abstraction. For myself, a large part of why I play warhammer, rather than another strategy game, is its aesthetic appeal. A large part of that aesthetic is a board filled with creative terrain and fantastical armies clashing. When you start to see things like ubiquitous elf conga lines waltzing across the board a part of that aesthetic dies a horrid and painful death and I would rather pack up the models and play Go.

All that said, I don't really see, as a fellow empire player, any extreme difficulty in dealing with that list or with the elite army rule in general, though I may change my mind if I am ever confronted with 10 bolt throwers.

Alltaken
16-07-2010, 18:35
Haven't read all the post, but here goes my question. With 4 warmachines that need not calculate distance why don't you focus em all on Teclis turn 1. I bet you can get to shoot him to the death turn 1. With some carefull placement u can get to shoot even some arrows or bullets at him and have him done turn 1.

I believe u have a steam stank out of place and u could have loosened up on some detachments

King_Pash
16-07-2010, 21:08
Haven't read all the post, but here goes my question. With 4 warmachines that need not calculate distance why don't you focus em all on Teclis turn 1. I bet you can get to shoot him to the death turn 1. With some carefull placement u can get to shoot even some arrows or bullets at him and have him done turn 1.

I believe u have a steam stank out of place and u could have loosened up on some detachments

Erm, Look Out Sir? You'd have to be lucky for him to fail his 2+ dodge :)

Sygerrik
17-07-2010, 08:08
It's been said, but:
Feedback scroll. Turn one dead Teclis, end of game.

Latro
17-07-2010, 10:24
This is a classic. By feeling the need to claim that you are more mature than most adults, you prove that you are not.

Trust me, I felt the exactly same when I was your age. When you get older you will look back and see that you were in fact not very mature ^^.

I am not trying to patronise you, just stating that claiming to be "more mature" is very immature. Maturity is not really measurable like that.

I work with kids your age, so I am not pulling this out my ass.


Yet somehowe, the worst examples of this so-called "immature behaviour" is usually seen in these so-called "grown-ups".

By the way, you do realize that by your own reasoning you just have proven yourself to be immature by claiming that now when you've grown up you're mature enough to see how immature you were beach then. ;)


:cool:

(PS No offense intended, just trying to point out the sillyness of these discussions.)

(PS Yes, I'm immature too.)

(PS Dwarfs rule!)

Latro
17-07-2010, 10:26
It's been said, but:
Feedback scroll. Turn one dead Teclis, end of game.

Can it be used on a spell that's irresistable? And doesn't Teclis cast almost all of his spells irresistable? Not sure though, don't have the HE book.


:cool:

Notasquick
17-07-2010, 12:27
I am not sure that High Elves are any more of an elite army than either Dwarfs, Bretonian knights, Chaos Warriors, or other Elves. It also seems to ignore the "citzen levy" basis of the high elven army.

I would agree that the "Elite Army" rule along with some other army construction rules are particular ill thought out, but more in terms of the balance between characterful armies and outright power gaming. It made some sense in the last edition when you wanted to have a wide range of different elites (the one of everything army), or in this edition if you want to represent a particular faction (the faction army, where faction units are prevelant but others are either absent or limited). Power gamers never seem to apply these characterful limits while taking advantage of such rules to the nth degree.

If you have a problem dealing with a specific logistic, strategy, or tactic, then try to understand how it works and what the options are to combat it. Whilst checking the rules that support them, apply common sense as well as logic to their interpretation. Often this is the first step to unmasking any underlying fallacy (too good to be true).

So read the rules about:
- the spacing between units (friend or foe);
- charging;
- flyers;
- war machines;
- line of sight;

Key points to note are:
- there are no friendly unit spacing requirements;
- charging does not allow the charger to move enemy units or models;
- flyers only charge the edge of the unit that they are facing;
- some war machines are allowed to shoot over other units;
- some war machines can use LOS to fire at taller models;

The result of all these, is that you can protect your war machines from flyers with careful deployment and unit positioning. You do this by creating a number of infantry barriers around your war machines on bases that deny space for flyers to directly charge your war machines.

Draw from other armies typical deployments, by considering castling your war machines and supporting units in a corner of the battlefield to force a direct assault. Do not forget to protect the rear of your castle from edge deployers and flyers hopping over your formation to change the angle of attack.

War machines can be shielded from some types of attacker by placing them in suitable terrain or a building, or even by taking the enchanted item "Pocket Watch Tower".

The detachment system makes these tactic even better because you can easily bring several units fire power against any direct charges, whilst not losing any efficieny in prosecuting a shooting war against an enemy army in your own turn. In additon think about using these to bloster your shooting castle: Marksman, Engineer, Warrior Priest, Captain, Pigeon Bombs, Repeater Pistol, Hochland Long Rifle, Dragon Bow, and Doomfire Ring.

Consider the placement of your Engineers in units, because according to the Empire FAQ they now always work within 3" of a war machine. Marksman/Engineers with Hochland can combine to prosecute threats at long range. Engineers with Hochland, Repeater Pistol and Pigeon Bombs, have surprising utility. Captains with enchanted items can bolster other units (Dragonbow in Crossbowmen, Doomfire Ring in shooters, Orb of Thunder/Ring of Volans in rearguards). Warrior priests can make your parent units unbreakable.

If flyers are such a problem to an Empire army take the "Orb of Thunder", and then gamble on "Ring of Volans" giving a suitable defensive spell.

If you want to take advantage of LOS, try a pocket watch tower or suitable modelling. Some modelling possibilities are cannons on artillery emplacements, artillery crew spotter on powder barrel, or flagellants kneeling for prayer.

Fighting an overwhelming magical foe:
- "Aldreds's Casket of Sorcery" on a mounted character in fast cavalry;
- "Standard of Arcane Warding" with General of The Empire for horde protection;
- warrior priests;
- a host of common magical items in the 8th edition rulebook that adversly effect casters;

Remember movement of units across the typical battlefield is quickened by terrain rules, free reform, and increased charge ranges. You can comfortably spend several turns neutralising monsters and war machine hunters before marching on the weakened enemy. Some basic deployment tactics and above all patience is the key now to defeating these types of specific threats.

Novrain
17-07-2010, 16:13
I am not sure that High Elves are any more of an elite army than either Dwarfs, Bretonian knights, Chaos Warriors, or other Elves.



Bit OT but can I just point out that Dwarf armies are actually mostly militia...

Yup that old dwarf farmer more used to shovelling sheep **** can still rock out with a chaos warrior in combat... :D


PS Go Dwarfs! :p

minionboy
17-07-2010, 17:30
I am not sure that High Elves are any more of an elite army than either Dwarfs, Bretonian knights, Chaos Warriors, or other Elves. It also seems to ignore the "citzen levy" basis of the high elven army.

Except that 25% of your army has to be citizen levy. Even some of the special units like Ellyrian Reavers, Silver Helms, Tiranoc Chariots, and even Dragon Princes are just normal people in their off time (although some citizenry and some nobility).