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Smiling Banshee
15-07-2010, 12:59
This came up on another forum (Ulthuan.net)

A guy was talking about the HE Magic items which give you more power dice in the magic phase. With the cap of 12 dice max now in place, the idea came up that in the rules for said magic items there was no restriction on when you need to add these extra dice and they can be added at Any time during the magic phase. This seems like a bit of an easter egg hunt to me and stretching it a bit, but as a HE player it would be very handy. Im keen to hear others opinions on this.

If its a pefrectly viable tactic and not seen as bending the rules ill use it. But if its gonna get the new rule book thrown at me then I wont.

Isfimbur
15-07-2010, 13:01
I say no. If there is a cap at 12, there is a cap. If they wanted people have more than 12 dice they would not set a cap. By that logic all power dice regenerating abilities should work this way. All or none.

Vsurma
15-07-2010, 13:04
Yet many do, a slann or the DE sorceress with dagger both add extra dice all throughout the phase.

Isfimbur
15-07-2010, 13:14
Well all armies can do it with power stone yes? If this is in fact possible. Why is there a cap at all? Why make som abilities weaker in comparison, like the master of the black arts (+2 pd), and not let them give you more then 12 pd? Because I think that its supposed to be a unbreakable cap at 12.

Kaptajn_Congoboy
15-07-2010, 13:16
There is nothing in the rules against it, I understand, as long as it is not spesifically stated thay the items put more PD in play at the start of the magic phase. The Lore of Death refills power dice all the time, during the magic phase. The Purple Sun ploughing through a Lizardman army should soon have you back up to 12 PD in no time!

We have to go to such arcana as the german FAQ, which ULF translated here (www.warseer.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4803301&postcount=87). Its more detailed description makes it pretty clear there is no full-phase hard cap on PD.

slasher
15-07-2010, 13:53
At any point in the phase the POOL is not allowed to have more than 12 dice. As said there are ways around this cap, eg the Slann / HE Dragon Mage who add a free dice to the dice from the pool etc

erm..... ignore that, its wrong :shifty: the free are not actually free they are additional to those generated by the winds of magic roll

Asmodai48
15-07-2010, 14:08
Slanns rumination and others like it set a bad precident for more special rules/items to break the 12 Pd limit. I dont see it being good for the game. Either everyone should be restricted by it or just remove it.

RanaldLoec
15-07-2010, 14:17
At any point in the phase the POOL is not allowed to have more than 12 dice. As said there are ways around this cap, eg the Slann / HE Dragon Mage who add a free dice to the dice from the pool etc

In the lizardmen faq it states that the slanns free dice from focus rumination count against the 12 pd limit

Kaptajn_Congoboy
15-07-2010, 14:19
Yes, and in the FAQ I linked to a translation to above, it states that this means he cannot use Focused Rumination when he already has 12 PD, but otherwise can do so.

Asmodai48
15-07-2010, 14:23
So he can only get 18pd a turn oh noes!

RanaldLoec
15-07-2010, 14:27
The dark elf faq the dice from the power of darkness spell count towards the 12 pd limit.

Need I find any more examples 12pd is the limit you can't generate more later Ion in the magic phase the dark elf faq is a good example.

loveless
15-07-2010, 14:45
The dark elf faq the dice from the power of darkness spell count towards the 12 pd limit.

Need I find any more examples 12pd is the limit you can't generate more later Ion in the magic phase the dark elf faq is a good example.

The Dark Elf FAQ doesn't say that, though.


Q. Do the extra dice generated by Power of Darkness count against the number of dice in the dice pool? (p63)
A. Yes.

Q. If Power of Darkness dice are lost as a result of a miscast, or because the dice pool has reacched its limit, and are not used to cast a spell, inflict S4 hits? (p63)
A. No.

The pool has a limit of 12 at any given time. I would say that this reads as allowing the Power of Darkness spell to replenish the pool.

Applying the first question:
We have 10 Power Dice and use 4 of them, giving us 6. We then use another die to cast Power of Darkness and receive 4 more dice, giving us 9 Power Dice back in the pool.

The second question gives us another "hint" as to how to utlize the Power of Darkness spell:
We have 10 Power Dice and decide to try and coax out some of the opponent's dispel dice by casting Power of Darkness with a die. It succeeds, giving us 4 more dice. This would give us 13 dice, but - as per the second question above - we have to discard one as it takes us over our limit. Luckily, this unused die does not inflict a Strength 4 Hit for being unused.

Also of note: The Lore of Death.

Doesn't the ability of this Lore inherently allow more Power Dice to be generated throughout the Magic Phase? That alone should be reason enough to show that you can, indeed, generate more as the phase progresses.

The question comes from the use of items that state they are used in the Magic Phase, but do not specifically state when they are used. If they do not say "At the start" or "At the end" or something similar, it could be argued that you could activate them at a later time to replenish your pool. However, if it's also missing the phrase "At any time during your Magic Phase" then it could also be argued that you cannot use it whenever you like.

It's a bit iffy - mainly because I don't have the wording of the High Elf item(s) in front of me. I think I would be willing to try it with allowing the item to activate at any point in the phase, but I'm not sure how that's going to affect overall gameplay - nor am I sure it sets a precedent that cannot be abused in other situations.

Necromancy Black
15-07-2010, 14:47
The dark elf faq the dice from the power of darkness spell count towards the 12 pd limit.

Need I find any more examples 12pd is the limit you can't generate more later Ion in the magic phase the dark elf faq is a good example.


Nope, that doesn't show that you can't generate beyond 12 at a later point. All that says if that if you generate powerdice they count against how many are in the pool, which basically confirms exactly what already is said in the rulebook. The exact same thing applies to sacrificial dagger: you can use it as many times as you want but once the number of dice already cast plus what's still in the pool equals 12 it won't give you any more dice.

Reading the rule in the BRB I'm definitely on the side that's it's only what is currently in the pool, and at no point during the phase may any rule that gives you extra power dice take you over 12PD at once, but over a phase you may indeed end up using more then 12PD.

RanaldLoec
15-07-2010, 15:05
So he can only get 18pd a turn oh noes!

Pg 30 of the brb " this limit applies to all power dice, regardless of the source, and includes dice gained through the winds of magic, channelling, from magic items, special abilities and so on.


That appears fairly clear 12 is the magic number no more matter the source.

We have two opposing views I'm not going to change your mind and your not going to change mine so I'll leave it there we disagree with each other.

loveless
15-07-2010, 15:06
Pg 30 of the brb " this limit applies to all power dice, regardless of the source, and includes dice gained through the winds of magic, channelling, from magic items, special abilities and so on.


That appears fairly clear 12 is the magic number no more matter the source.

Read a few lines before that, as opposed to just taking the ending out :p

Bac5665
15-07-2010, 15:08
Yes, but the limit is only at any given time, not total used throughout the phase.

Waylander.
15-07-2010, 15:33
Personally I say no. If the cap is 12 then that's the rule of thumb to work with.
I know there is nothing in the rulebook against it but for me it's more a gentleman's agreement. When I used to game we tried not to break or bend rules as it just causes resent and can ruin a perfectly good game.

Richie
http://www.wargamersworld.co.uk

Kugruk
15-07-2010, 15:50
Yes, but the limit is only at any given time, not total used throughout the phase.

Pretty much this.


Slann rumination dice never touch the pool.

kargie
15-07-2010, 16:01
I think the clearest answer to this question is the fact that the rules do not require that you keep track of how many dice used. All that is mentioned is a hard cap. So spells that add dice can "replenish" the pool, but not beyond 12 at any one time.

The rules would need to specify "cannot use more than 12" or something else to prevent this from happening. Without a need/method given by the rules to keep track of dice throughout the phase other than individual snapshots of pool size, RAW means you can refill up to the cap (and so potentially giving many more than 12 throughout the phase).

RanaldLoec
15-07-2010, 16:31
Pretty much this.


Slann rumination dice never touch the pool.

Direct from the gw lizardmen faq

Q. Does the 'free dice gained from focused rumination count against the power limit? (pg43)
A. Yes

Rumination does count towards the pool

Bac5665
15-07-2010, 16:41
Direct from the gw lizardmen faq

Q. Does the 'free dice gained from focused rumination count against the power limit? (pg43)
A. Yes

Rumination does count towards the pool

Right, so if I roll 12, I can't use rumination for the first spell I cast.

But then, I have less than 12 in the pool for spell 2, so I can add a die to it, and so on.

RanaldLoec
15-07-2010, 16:44
I will relent on the power dice limit though on closer inspection I'm wrong. The power dice limit can be topped up just never over 12.

jet_palero
15-07-2010, 17:36
I will relent on the power dice limit though on closer inspection I'm wrong. The power dice limit can be topped up just never over 12.

But this is a very strange way to design the rule, and can easily lead to abuse.

loveless
15-07-2010, 17:42
But this is a very strange way to design the rule, and can easily lead to abuse.

Out of curiosity, what abuses do you foresee?

SideshowLucifer
15-07-2010, 17:47
It leads to some abilities actualy having a use. It's one of the reasons Death Magic is good and pretty much theonly unique rule the Dark Elves kept that gives them a leg up in anything anymore now that anyone can throw six dice at a spell reguardless of level.

twistinthunder
15-07-2010, 17:59
Out of curiosity, what abuses do you foresee?

example: I use kairos fateweaver (he chooses spells, so as to avoid "you got lucky to get it) to cast purple sun of xereus with six dice, so long as it goes over 9 models at least then the probability of gaining all of those dice back is 2/3.
.

Harorc Blueteef
15-07-2010, 18:42
It leads to some abilities actualy having a use. It's one of the reasons Death Magic is good and pretty much theonly unique rule the Dark Elves kept that gives them a leg up in anything anymore now that anyone can throw six dice at a spell reguardless of level.

As I see it those rules got uses. If you roll a bit low on your power dice roll in the beginning of the magic phase you have possibilities to get some more dice into your pool.

That seems like a big use to me even it the cap is for the total amount of dice for the entire phase. And that cap seems to be there to prevent the said abilities from being overpowered if you roll high enough on your starting power dice.

No2Wookie
15-07-2010, 18:46
If they are abuses then they are abuses nearly ever army can take advantage of.

DaemonReign
15-07-2010, 19:15
Doc showing up with a whole heap of Tzeentch Heralds having the Power Vortex Gift.

Alot of Gift got nerfed with 8th, one or two actually got better.

Peril
15-07-2010, 19:52
Why do people try and make things difficult? It seems clear to me the point was to cap at 12 dice per phase. This "at any one time" stuff is nonsense semantics by jerks looking for a loophole.

Surgency
15-07-2010, 20:01
Glad it makes so much sense to you. If it had been meant to cap at 12 dice, it would have said something along the lines of "You can ever only use 12 power dice in your magic phase, from any source"

loveless
15-07-2010, 20:11
This "at any one time" stuff is nonsense semantics by jerks looking for a loophole.

Rather, the "at any one time" is part of the bloody rule and I daresay the person ignoring it would be the "jerk looking for a loophole"...

TheRaven
15-07-2010, 20:20
Am I the only one that thought that the bit of the FAQ talking about Rumination counting towards the limit meant the limit of 6 dicer per "Spell" not the 12 dice per pool?

The "Power Limit" can be either the 12 dice per pool at a time or the 6 dice to be used to cast a spell. Maybe I was the only one in the world that thought they were refering to the latter. To me it seemed simple that dice added directly to the spell don't count towards the 12, while dice added to the pool do. The rule book used it's wording very specifically by using key words/phases like "Pool" and "At any time".

marv335
15-07-2010, 20:25
Am I the only one that thought that the bit of the FAQ talking about Rumination counting towards the limit meant the limit of 6 dice per "Spell" not the 12 dice per pool?

That's how I read it.

Alltaken
15-07-2010, 21:41
12 dice pool at any time. 6 dice per cast. Rumination buggers the rule actually since it isn't calculable and its generated per cast

zak
15-07-2010, 21:48
Having had a recent trip to Nottingham this matter came up in conversation. The answer given was that the pool cannot go above 12 at one time. If you happen to use 6 dice and then use a magic item to increase this, but nor above 12, then this is fine and within the rules.

SYN Ace
15-07-2010, 21:55
If you can replenish -- why would they even put a cap on and not just say no matter how many dice you have you can't use more than 6 for a spell?

Doommasters
15-07-2010, 21:56
From my limited experience and being a new WHFB player in 8th edition, from watching games for the last week at my local store it would seem a few armies need more power dice than a maximum 12. What happens to VC when you want to play a 4000 point game?

Also Lizardmen don't have cannons etc so thus need magic to have a chance to win the game, making it Max 12 know matter what would take the fun away from some armies. Some people like to play with heavy magic just like some like playing with hordes of mass war machines. Everyone where i have started playing is having a good time and even the good players are starting to lose games against armies that they once slaughtered.

The moment you force armies to be the same is the moment the game will lose it's appeal, magic is one of those things.

loveless
15-07-2010, 21:59
If you can replenish -- why would they even put a cap on and not just say no matter how many dice you have you can't use more than 6 for a spell?

It diminishes the use of those powers and items that inherently add to the initial pool - the Vampire Power, some banners, some items, etc.

Replenishing the pool is probably more rare than we're making it out to be. I can think of a few instances:

- Death Magic
- Dark Elf Sorceresses and Malekith using Power of Darkness
- Daemon ability that Kairos has (I forget the name)

There may be another special character somewhere that has a "refill" style power, but those are the ones that were at the forefront of my mind. Not overly prevalent, though Death Magic is likely to show up a fair bit due to Purple Sun of Xereus and other goodies.

jamesgurney100
15-07-2010, 22:16
Loveless dont forget my grey seer's warpstone tokens :D

nibble nibble (my pools replenished oh wait a bunch of 1's just great, my seer's dead :cries: )

Zurubbu
15-07-2010, 22:34
I roll 12 power dice from winds of magic, and attempt to cast a spell using 12 dice with my DE sorceress. I roll the dice and empty my power pool. Now i use a sacrificial dagger to get a 13th dice. Why? Cuz i (probably) can.

It never exceeds 12 dice cap.

loveless
15-07-2010, 22:44
I roll 12 power dice from winds of magic, and attempt to cast a spell using 12 dice with my DE sorceress. I roll the dice and empty my power pool. Now i use a sacrificial dagger to get a 13th dice. Why? Cuz i (probably) can.

It never exceeds 12 dice cap.

Also known as the "I have one Wizard and Feel like Miscasting" approach :evilgrin::D

_Ashdil_
15-07-2010, 22:52
I roll 12 power dice from winds of magic, and attempt to cast a spell using 12 dice with my DE sorceress. I roll the dice and empty my power pool. Now i use a sacrificial dagger to get a 13th dice. Why? Cuz i (probably) can.

It never exceeds 12 dice cap.

Just one problem, you can only ever use a maximun of 6 dice per/spell

Some armies items can replenish the Pool, I think this was well intended. Nowdays the case is often that you get more PD, but few items increase DD. That might change to compete with the extra PD that can be held by certain armies with certain Items.
The idea that magic would be a weak choice this ed is wrong, yet many seem to think that, thanks to the cap. The cap gives magic a momentum, not just cast/dispell cast/dispell done. Now it is a battle for the magic winds via theese items spells, to get the most out of your magic phase. It's a little bit more interesting this editon methinks.

loveless
15-07-2010, 23:03
Just one problem, you can only ever use a maximun of 6 dice per/spell


Druchii Sorcery - The Dark Elves scoff at the power dice casting limits of the other races :p

Odominus
15-07-2010, 23:09
Empire Wiz Staff lets you roll 7 PD.

SideshowLucifer
16-07-2010, 13:44
Dark Elves get the special rule that allows them to kill themselves with miscasts whenever they want since they can roll any amount of dice to cast a spell.

a18no
16-07-2010, 14:59
I roll 12 power dice from winds of magic, and attempt to cast a spell using 12 dice with my DE sorceress. I roll the dice and empty my power pool. Now i use a sacrificial dagger to get a 13th dice. Why? Cuz i (probably) can.

It never exceeds 12 dice cap.

Actually, the pool is empty only when the spells is done (cast or dispelled). When you're casting it, you are still at 12 cap, so no dagger/slann power/dragon mage/ec.

It's why you have the FAQ for the slann, dragon mage, etc.

loveless
16-07-2010, 16:21
Actually, the pool is empty only when the spells is done (cast or dispelled). When you're casting it, you are still at 12 cap, so no dagger/slann power/dragon mage/ec.

It's why you have the FAQ for the slann, dragon mage, etc.

What Dragon Mage FAQ are you talking about?

Semi-related question: I don't have the Lizardman book, but could someone give me the exact wording of Focused Rumination? The "power limit" bit used in the FAQ for it is also used in the Dark Elf FAQ for the Darkstar Cloak. I'm curious as to what the Focused Rumination ability actually does.

As for casting and such...if the "extra" dice were to count against the pool, a Dragon Mage couldn't cast a spell if the High Elf player rolled 12 for his Power Dice, since no matter what he cast, he'd end up rolling an extra die. As such, I'm guess the "inherent" bonus dice - ones that show up per casting - are just that, a bonus, while ones that are purchased and one-use-per-phase (For instance, the Darkstar Cloak, which gives +1 Power Die) do count against the limit.

Smiling Banshee
16-07-2010, 17:05
Ok so thanks for all the replies, some interesting points there. After reading through your thoughts and speaking to some players in my local gaming group Ive decided that I won't be using this tactic. From the people Ive spoken to the majority seem to be in the 'its a bit cheeky camp' and as my priority is fun over WAAC I think ill stick to 12 dice MAX until it gets FAQ'd.

N1AK
16-07-2010, 17:26
Why do people try and make things difficult? It seems clear to me the point was to cap at 12 dice per phase. This "at any one time" stuff is nonsense semantics by jerks looking for a loophole.

It's been a while where I have seen a post where someone makes them look quite as bad as you did there.

The power dice pool is how many you have available to cast with. That is the definition given by the book. Dice that already used are no longer pool dice.

I like the singlemindedness that allows you to call other people jerks abusing semantics, when your definition relies on redefing "pool dice" as "total dice used" for one rule, while defining it to mean "dice remaining" in all other senses :p

chamelion 6
16-07-2010, 17:29
Ok so thanks for all the replies, some interesting points there. After reading through your thoughts and speaking to some players in my local gaming group Ive decided that I won't be using this tactic. From the people Ive spoken to the majority seem to be in the 'its a bit cheeky camp' and as my priority is fun over WAAC I think ill stick to 12 dice MAX until it gets FAQ'd.

Interesting... Because this was how I saw it at the beginning of the thread but changed my opinion part way through it.

I kind of see it as giving the magic phase a dynamic in keeping with the spirit of the game. The more successful a wizard is at manipulation the winds of magic them more he can sustain it. Represented by the refilling of the dice pool... Some lores making that easier... But the more he rolls the more opportunities for things to go wrong and end horribly wrong.

I think I'd have to actually play several games allowing this method to see if it really fails before I'd call it cheesy........

Balerion
16-07-2010, 19:11
This thread kind of strayed away from the topic I had hoped it would deal with (which was the content of the OP).

Assuming we take it for granted that you can generate more than 12 dice over the course of the phase (it seems obvious to me, otherwise the rulebook writer would have never used the phrase "at any one time") then how are we meant to play the items and powers that add dice "in the magic phase" or "to the power dice pile" , etc. and don't specify at which point in the phase the dice are generated?

My instinct would be to have all extra dice generated at the beginning of the magic phase, unless there is a specific cause/effect scenario that generates them at later points in the phase (such as the Lore of Death).

Jind_Singh
16-07-2010, 19:17
It says it or not - if someone wants to 'try' to grab extra power die I say good luck to them - as I'll never play them! There is a reason there is a cap at 12 power die - balance! Just assume that you can't exceed 12 power die at any point - otherwise whats the point?
Sheesh - why are people trying to break the rules and the spirit of the game, they would be better of to break their models so we don't have to be inflicted by shameless gamers!

chamelion 6
16-07-2010, 19:27
This thread kind of strayed away from the topic I had hoped it would deal with (which was the content of the OP).

Assuming we take it for granted that you can generate more than 12 dice over the course of the phase (it seems obvious to me, otherwise the rulebook writer would have never used the phrase "at any one time") then how are we meant to play the items and powers that add dice "in the magic phase" or "to the power dice pile" , etc. and don't specify at which point in the phase the dice are generated?

My instinct would be to have all extra dice generated at the beginning of the magic phase, unless there is a specific cause/effect scenario that generates them at later points in the phase (such as the Lore of Death).

Unless it specifically says I presuem you would generate the dice when you wanted. That would be part of the strategy of drawing out dispell dice. It will also make the opposing player hesitate before just dispelling everything if your inital roll is bad. Because he'll have to account for you pulling more dice later in the phase.


It says it or not - if someone wants to 'try' to grab extra power die I say good luck to them - as I'll never play them! There is a reason there is a cap at 12 power die - balance! Just assume that you can't exceed 12 power die at any point - otherwise whats the point?
Sheesh - why are people trying to break the rules and the spirit of the game, they would be better of to break their models so we don't have to be inflicted by shameless gamers!

I still see balance in either interpretation. Why should I assume the cap is for the whole phase when the rule genuinely seems to point the other direction? No... I see this as a legitimate difference of opinion. I started out under the opinion the cap was for the phase but have found nothing to support that. And I see a dynamic in the looser interpretation that is, I believe, well within the spirit of the game.

I may change my mind after a few games, but right now I don't see it destroying or unbalancing the game. At least in games under 3000pts. Above that the extra dice seem a bit extreme.

loveless
16-07-2010, 19:58
It says it or not - if someone wants to 'try' to grab extra power die I say good luck to them - as I'll never play them!

Best of luck getting a game...

jet_palero
16-07-2010, 22:53
This thread kind of strayed away from the topic I had hoped it would deal with (which was the content of the OP).

Assuming we take it for granted that you can generate more than 12 dice over the course of the phase (it seems obvious to me, otherwise the rulebook writer would have never used the phrase "at any one time")


He doesn't actually use that phrase.

There is a finite limit on the amount of power a wizard can control. The casting player's power pool can never exceed 12 dice at any point in the phase - any dice generated beyond this number are lost.
This limit applies to all power dice, regardless of the source, and includes dice gained through the winds of magic, channelling, from magic items, special abilities and so on. [ Warhammer BRB, Page 30. ]

The other side of this argument is that the power pool does increase beyond 12 when you're adding dice, its just that some have already been expended. I've seen some magic phases just absolutely destroy the game and end it effectively on turn 1.

<shrug> I think that the rule is written very badly. And its entirely up to interpretation as to whether they intended it to be limited to 12 dice total per phase, or a soft cap of 12 at any given moment. They should clarify this just to shut us all up.

I also think that if they keep it with a soft cap, in a few months someone is going to figure out a good way to game the list and use enough wizards with the right equipment to completely obliterate anyone on turn 1.

Doommasters
17-07-2010, 01:32
The GW staff in our area say that you can never have more than 12 Dice in the pool at anyone time, but once you use a dice it is no longer in the pool so more can then be generated.

Example:

Slann - Focused Rumination
He can't use the extra power dice if you roll a 12. If you roll a 12 then cast a spell any spell after that can add extra powerdice as you would not have 12 dice in the pool when you went to cast the spell. The idea is it stops you having 13 dice at anyone time.

Death: You could have 12 dice and roll 4 dice and get 4 6's this would mean you still have 12 power dice in your pool.

MOTBA: You can't have more than 12 power dice in your pool so any dice that would be generated in addition to the 12 in your pool are lost. (This is to stop the ability to roll a 12 and then add say 8 dice from 4 vampires with Motba giving you 20 powerdice, combine this with the Lore of Death and watch the game end).

They also indicated that magic is one of the reasons new players want to play WHFB and being able to create an army that is strong in this area is both required to make some armies competitive and also market said armies to new players. The idea is that WHFB is a diverse world and GW don't want to make armies generic and the same, this isn't a game of chess!

They say that it is black and white and it was never intended to limit the dice to a maximum of 12 per phase, just limit the amout of pool dice at anyone time.

Anyway i am a new player and 8th is the only edition i have played and it seems clear in my mind also.

najo
17-07-2010, 02:52
Everything I have seen and heard locally and online supports the 12 dice at any time, not per phase.

With that said, the powers like MotBA etc now allow those magic heavy armies to skew the curve in their favor. Most of the time you are getting 7 power dice and your opponent 4 dispel dice. With one MotBA you're getting 9 power dice and your opponent 4 dispel dice, with a second MotBA you effectively get 11 dice and your oppoenent 4. If you roll bad (like double 1's) your opponent get 1 dispel dice, and you would have 5 power dice (in that last example).

That is what those powers do now. Bend the curve in your favor and put your opponent a weaker position. It is still powerful, juts not as extreme as the last edition where the two sides had power or dispel dice at various extremes. The curve controls that flux now.

Aluinn
17-07-2010, 03:03
Direct from the gw lizardmen faq

Q. Does the 'free dice gained from focused rumination count against the power limit? (pg43)
A. Yes

Rumination does count towards the pool

And if Rumination does, pretty much everything does, because it is similarly worded.

I think one phrase in the rules that should be given some heavy attention is "any dice generated beyond this number [12] are lost" (emphasis mine). So even if something generates dice that are stated to be "free" or otherwise implied to not be part of the regular power dice pool, they simply go away before casting can happen if they take the total number of power dice over 12. The rules then go on to explicitly state that this applies to channeling, magic items, and special abilities.

This doesn't mean things like Master of the Black Art or whatever are bad, mind you. Being able to make up for bad power dice rolls and skew the ratio of power dice to dispel dice in one's favor on everything except a double-6 roll is very good, and worth the old points values completely. A natural 12 power dice total will only happen 1/36 magic phases, and thus is unlikely to pop up in a given game. It isn't even something you should bother planning for, in terms of spending points or making army list choices.

EDIT: Dice that are generated in the middle of the phase, after some spells have already been cast and thus the pool has been shrunk, remain a gray area IMO. In these types of situations, however, it seems best to take the more conservative interpretation until official clarification is forthcoming--i.e. that if you roll a natural twelve you still can't generate any more that phase. I suppose as long as it applies to everyone (and every similar rule) equally, the more liberal interpretation shouldn't cause serious problems, though.

Mr.chair
17-07-2010, 03:10
Well, I for one see a difference between items that have always added power dice after the fact (DE spell or the sacrificial dagger for example), and items that have historically generated the power dice at the beginning (HE banner, Master of the Black Arts). I know the edition has changed, and the ruling isn't spelled (no pun intended) out for you, but it seems to me that adding d3 power dice, as per the HE banner, AFTER using an hypothetical winds of magic roll of a 12, would not be in the spirit of the game.

Casshole
17-07-2010, 03:23
Today we played a game of eighth, rolled 11 on the PD, so we just assumed the HE banner added one automatically and didnt roll.

Thats the way Ill play that and MOTBA.

With Power O darkness, as long as there arent 12 Pd that havent been spent, then you add more.

Interesting enough, the rules for Dragon Mage says he cannot cast without that extra die even if he wanted to, i dont remember him being faqed, so i am leaning towards him still getting the die at 12 PD, but like the Slann cannot throw 7 pd.

jet_palero
17-07-2010, 06:46
The GW staff in our area say that you can never have more than 12 Dice in the pool at anyone time, but once you use a dice it is no longer in the pool so more can then be generated.


And I once had a GW staffer tell me that multiple wound causing magic weapons would cause splash damage onto additional models. They're only human, not infallible.





They also indicated that magic is one of the reasons new players want to play WHFB and being able to create an army that is strong in this area is both required to make some armies competitive and also market said armies to new players. The idea is that WHFB is a diverse world and GW don't want to make armies generic and the same, this isn't a game of chess!


Really. I've always thought of magic as the least appealing part of WFB, for its utter randomness, and generally over the top if you get them off, abilities. I like a little randomness in the game, but if you make it entirely dependent on a few dice rolls, well, it feels like the game is dumbed down.



They say that it is black and white and it was never intended to limit the dice to a maximum of 12 per phase, just limit the amout of pool dice at anyone time.

Anyway i am a new player and 8th is the only edition i have played and it seems clear in my mind also.

If thats the case then thats fine, but they really should clarify the ruling so that there is no argument. All they'd need is a single line of a faq entry saying this on the web page and we'd all be quiet. They've yet to do this.

N1AK
17-07-2010, 12:17
With that said, the powers like MotBA etc now allow those magic heavy armies to skew the curve in their favor. Most of the time you are getting 7 power dice and your opponent 4 dispel dice. With one MotBA you're getting 9 power dice and your opponent 4 dispel dice, with a second MotBA you effectively get 11 dice and your oppoenent 4. If you roll bad (like double 1's) your opponent get 1 dispel dice, and you would have 5 power dice (in that last example).


In 7th a 2k Vampire army could manage 17pd, 12pd is still massive but I doubt you'll see it all that much. I think almost every Vampire Lord will come with MotBA but not the lesser Vamps, this means the Vamp lord will be doing a lot of heavy dice (risky) casting...

N1AK
17-07-2010, 12:26
If thats the case then thats fine, but they really should clarify the ruling so that there is no argument. All they'd need is a single line of a faq entry saying this on the web page and we'd all be quiet. They've yet to do this.

Because it isn't ambiguous, the rule is clear and a few people are trying to bend it to give an outcome they want instead of applying it as defined in the book.


"When a wizard casts a spell, he takes a number of dice from the power pool in order to make the attempt. Accordingly, each time a spell is cast, the power pool will shrink a little,"

The definition of power pool as the dice available to be used to cast spells is absolutely clear.


"The casting player's power pool can never exceed 12 dice at any point in the phase"

It is the player's power pool that is limited, and we already know from the clear wording earlier on the same page that this is the dice available to cast.


If you want to house rule it and play the limit as though it read "No more than 12 power dice can be rolled" then knock yourself out. Arguing that the wording is somehow unclear and needs FAQing just makes it look like you can't comprehend written english.

chamelion 6
17-07-2010, 15:34
Because it isn't ambiguous, the rule is clear and a few people are trying to bend it to give an outcome they want instead of applying it as defined in the book.


"When a wizard casts a spell, he takes a number of dice from the power pool in order to make the attempt. Accordingly, each time a spell is cast, the power pool will shrink a little,"

The definition of power pool as the dice available to be used to cast spells is absolutely clear.


"The casting player's power pool can never exceed 12 dice at any point in the phase"

It is the player's power pool that is limited, and we already know from the clear wording earlier on the same page that this is the dice available to cast.


If you want to house rule it and play the limit as though it read "No more than 12 power dice can be rolled" then knock yourself out. Arguing that the wording is somehow unclear and needs FAQing just makes it look like you can't comprehend written english.

Yeah... I think the intent of the rule is pretty clear. I'd generally argue to the last breath but I can't find anything to support the idea the cap is for the phase.

I don't see any vagueness in this one.

badguyshaveallthefun
17-07-2010, 17:16
Just because we traditionally in editions past used items that added dice to the power pool (master of the black arts, power vortex, etc...) at the beginning of the magic phase doesn't mean that it's the only acceptable way of doing it. I wouldn't deny anyone that wanted to add it later in the phase the opportunity to do so; they paid for the ability to do it, they should be able to do it.

And it is a "soft" cap. 12 PD at any time in the phase, not 12 dice for the phase. That's how I interpret it.

Mr.chair
17-07-2010, 17:27
OK, I'm coming from the perspective that GW writes awfully worded rules. RAW is RAW, but I try to delve in to the intent of the rule if I can, since we can't exactly count on GW writing the rule the way they want it to work. In this case, a maximum cap of 12 dice would seem purposeless if every power/item in the game that generates dice can take the pool back up to 12 later in the phase anyways. Why even have a cap at all? The powers in question used to work by generating at the beginning of the magic phase, but in 7th the time of generation wasn't really so important, so the individual powers/items don't spell it out. One way to interpret this is by RAW; it doesn't say when they're generated so you can generate them whenever you choose. RAW is certainly a very well bounded way to interpret the rules, since everyone has a different perception when it comes to the 'intent' of the rules. However, if we all play RAW, we can deep strike a deathwatch razorback...

Korraz
17-07-2010, 17:29
One might say it's the people, not the rules.

Bac5665
17-07-2010, 17:43
If thats the case then thats fine, but they really should clarify the ruling so that there is no argument. All they'd need is a single line of a faq entry saying this on the web page and we'd all be quiet. They've yet to do this.

Do you also want a FAQ saying that "yes, all attacks go in initiative order."? Or a FAQ clarifying that my saurus now can only make 1 attack from the second rank? These things are exactly as clear as the cap. And I assure you that I hate them every bit as much as you hate the cap as its written, if not more. But the fact that I hate them, or they seem stupid to me has NOTHING to do with whether or not there is ambiguity in the wording of the rule.

Please, GW takes too long to FAQ to little as it is. Please don't insist that they waste their time saying that, yes, they meant what they clearly said.

Devon Harmon
18-07-2010, 04:29
Now I remember why I stay out of the rules forum. But this thread was in General so I clicked into it.

I'll probably regret posting, but here goes: I guess I can't comprehend written English. I read the magic rules, then read the part in the Lizardmen FAQ and came to the conclusion that there was a hard limit of 12 power dice being spent during a magic phase. I really never considered otherwise, until reading this thread. I see what the rule says, I really do, I just don't see it as being cut and dried as a few of you.

I don't really care, one way or the other, but I wouldn't mind a little clarification from on high. I'm sorry if that is troublesome. I'm just a simple guy.

Balerion
18-07-2010, 04:50
OK, I'm coming from the perspective that GW writes awfully worded rules. RAW is RAW, but I try to delve in to the intent of the rule if I can, since we can't exactly count on GW writing the rule the way they want it to work. In this case, a maximum cap of 12 dice would seem purposeless if every power/item in the game that generates dice can take the pool back up to 12 later in the phase anyways. Why even have a cap at all? The powers in question used to work by generating at the beginning of the magic phase, but in 7th the time of generation wasn't really so important, so the individual powers/items don't spell it out. One way to interpret this is by RAW; it doesn't say when they're generated so you can generate them whenever you choose. RAW is certainly a very well bounded way to interpret the rules, since everyone has a different perception when it comes to the 'intent' of the rules. However, if we all play RAW, we can deep strike a deathwatch razorback...
That's a very good point, and enough for me to start houseruling that all bonus generation occurs at the beginning of the magic phase, unless another option is clearly provided.

HannibalSW
18-07-2010, 05:46
I started reading this thread and thought I came in understanding the 12 PD cap. Then I started reading and found I was leaning toward the other side of the argument allowing the 12 PD cap to be refilled through the use of spells during the phase.

I see the validity of the arguments and this is my take on them:

Why have a cap at all if you can replenish and get more than 12 PD a phase?

Why have the spells and/or abilities to replenish dice if you cannot get more than 12 PD total in the phase? (couldn't word it better)

I'm torn between both reasonings. I do not think I could argue against someone trying to get more dice through spells that allowed it, as long as it never passed 12 at one time. As some people create more PD, I do not think there are many opportunities for the other player to create DD, of course this doesn't answer the question at hand.

I tried to think what would happen at the gaming table. It isn't like I'm writing down how many PD my opponent gets and counting as he creates more and then at 12 PD I will advise him he can't make anymore. I guess I'll wait to read more in the thread.

Balerion
18-07-2010, 08:14
This surely won't make it any easier for you to decide where you stand, but there are good answers to both questions you posed.



Why have a cap at all if you can replenish and get more than 12 PD a phase?
Because the magic phase isn't supposed to be a totally even playing field across all armies. PD generating powers/items are a way of giving certain armies a distinctive boost in that phase of the game.


Why have the spells and/or abilities to replenish dice if you cannot get more than 12 PD total in the phase? (couldn't word it better)

Because those tools allow the player to ensure a higher minimum number of power dice, and avoid turns where he rolls snake eyes on the Winds of Magic and wrecks the entire phase.


Although both of those answers depend on the assumption that extra dice are generated at the beginning of the phase, and not whenever the player chooses.

Vsurma
18-07-2010, 09:15
But this is a very strange way to design the rule, and can easily lead to abuse.

Depends on what you mean by "abuse" in the last edition (probably every edition" some races were more magically talented than others.

that is exactly the situation we have now. According to fluff slanns are the most powerful mages around, the ones that taught HE's magic in the first place.

Who then taught the empire mages. It stands to reason that a slann should be more powerful than the empire mage.

What we seem to have now are magically offensive armies, vamps, lizardmen, HE's, DE's, that get 2d6 + extra dice.

Then we have the normal casting races that stick with their 2d6 PD.

That said those with less casting ability seem to get bonuses to DD generation, such as orks, empire, dwarves etc.

I imagine there are a few races in between, I don't see that there is anything really wrong with the idea of how magic works.

As long as the magically less talented armies are not completely destroyed by the magic of the better casters, the extra DD and dispel scrolls they have access too seems to balance it out somewhat.

Vsurma
18-07-2010, 09:22
If you can replenish -- why would they even put a cap on and not just say no matter how many dice you have you can't use more than 6 for a spell?

BEcause the 12 cap at any times DOES cap power dice.

If we didn't have it vamps could take 6 vamps with motba in say a 3k game, they would then get 2d6 + 12! PD, with the cap this becomes pointless.

It DOES cap dice, also if you cast purple sun on a horde of small guys you might generate 20 dice (if your really lucky for example)

Now they don't want you to destroy entire armies in 1 magic phase, hence the cap.

Yes there are ways around it, they cost points so you sacrifice other things to get them. Taking lots of vamps with Motba may have you paying extra for no benefit, it is a balancing factor.

twistinthunder
18-07-2010, 09:36
- Daemon ability that Kairos has (I forget the name)



daemons can gain more PD in the following ways(AFAIK):

power vortex gift,
energy siphon (blue scribes)
boon of tzeentch(d3+1, only useable by the caster)

Sinaris
18-07-2010, 11:11
High Elf player here, im of the mind that people doing this are obviously too hell bent on winning, and basically jerks. You roll for the extra dice at the start and be done with it.

slayerofmen
18-07-2010, 11:29
i had some games today with some mates and we played it like this.

MOTDA gets added to the pool at the start, as did power vortex and the like.

the slann extra dice thing couldn't be used until the pool had got below a 12 eg: start with 12 rolls 2 dice no free one, now has ten, starts throwing free dice.

and we had zero issue.

that's the way it read to me and three other people, if i had rolled a 12 in my magic phase i wouldn't get the MOTDA ability dice because its not worded like the slanns thing

greenskinpeco
18-07-2010, 12:05
After talking to a GW staff member and inquiring into Dark elf magic he told me that when rolling for spells if you roll a double you no longer have to re roll or choose spell one anymore, Is that true? Because if it is you could get 4 6's and have 4 chances to cast black horror or whatever its called!

And also within the rule book for 8th edition it clearly states that you CANNOT exceed 12 power dice. However the GW member told me that DE can as they can generate more dice through their auto spell? the one that generates d3+1 power dice. He made out that you could roll double 6 for 12 PD and then start casting that to exceed 12 :S Is that true because if it is thats totally unfair!

And after looking at a friends army book for DE the casting values on most of the spells are FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFAAAAAAAAAAAR to low for what they do. For instance black horror was a 12+ and in 7th ed that was a 4 dice spell realistically. In this edition you can throw 2 dice at that spell with a lord and cast it! How is this justified? lol For a spell to cause such devastating effects on a roll of 8 from a lord? Even my DE player friend said its completely OTT.

Vsurma
18-07-2010, 13:26
The DE spell to get more dice is irrelevant, you cannot use it when you have 12 dice so don't, cast something else first, problem solved.

When you roll double you get to choose another spell, you are still bound by not being able to duplicate spells.

The old magic values are lower as they don't account for the bonus from mages, this is somewhat balanced out with the new and powerful lores that are in many cases "better" but with higher casting values.

Once every book gets a new version the spells will gain more balance, as always there is no way to balance everything, things will change over time.

I personally wish there was some way to generate more DD, currently there are plenty of ways to get more PD but almost no way to get more DD.

SideshowLucifer
18-07-2010, 15:44
Except dwarves getting 3 extra a turn, and DE and VC getting an extra or or more a turn. I'm sure other armies have some ways as well.

09Project
18-07-2010, 17:10
We playing it:

1 Generate PD and add any PD from magic items etc. to a max 12

2 Start casting spells

3 Any spells that generate dice either as a main event (DE) or side effect Death Magic can regen your dice pool (to a max of 12)

4 Continue casting till you run out.

5 Magic items that store dice or give dice can only be used at the first generating phase, if you stored a dice and then rolled a 12 for PD the stored dice are lost and cannot be added once spells have started to go off.

Nighthawke
18-07-2010, 17:30
We playing it:

1 Generate PD and add any PD from magic items etc. to a max 12

2 Start casting spells

3 Any spells that generate dice either as a main event (DE) or side effect Death Magic can regen your dice pool (to a max of 12)

4 Continue casting till you run out.

5 Magic items that store dice or give dice can only be used at the first generating phase, if you stored a dice and then rolled a 12 for PD the stored dice are lost and cannot be added once spells have started to go off.
thats how me and everyone at my local store has been playing :? never even thought the items that add dispell dice could be used at anyother time then the beginnning of the phase

chamelion 6
18-07-2010, 19:32
We playing it:

1 Generate PD and add any PD from magic items etc. to a max 12

2 Start casting spells

3 Any spells that generate dice either as a main event (DE) or side effect Death Magic can regen your dice pool (to a max of 12)

4 Continue casting till you run out.

5 Magic items that store dice or give dice can only be used at the first generating phase, if you stored a dice and then rolled a 12 for PD the stored dice are lost and cannot be added once spells have started to go off.

an excellent assessment. Think I may print it and use it as a guide.

Doommasters
18-07-2010, 22:47
GW should copy paste this with a Faq for each PD generation ability, well written. I would consider a slann with rumination to be part of clause 3.

Foxbat
19-07-2010, 01:14
Working from 09Project's work, I prefer the following revised version:

1. Generate PD & add PD from magic items that are required in their rules to be used at the start of the magic phase to a maximum of 12 PD in the pool

2. Start casting spells

3. Any spells or magic items that may generate dice during the phase or due to the Death Magic lore attribute can be added back to the dice pool (to a maximum of 12 PD in pool)

4. Continue casting till you run out or choose to stop

This approach eliminates the need for the 5th step/rule.

Balerion
19-07-2010, 02:00
Foxbat, your version falls apart as early as step one, because most of the items in question do not place an explicit requirement on when they are to be used.

Foxbat
19-07-2010, 02:24
Foxbat, your version falls apart as early as step one, because most of the items in question do not place an explicit requirement on when they are to be used.Items that do not say they must be used at the start can be used at anytime during the phase under item 3. Keep in mind that while they may not require you to announce at the start, you can always choose to do so as the start is still "during the phase".

Paraelix
19-07-2010, 02:26
Far as I interpret the rules... Anything that adds dice to your pool does so when all other power dice generation is done; at the start of the phase.

Foxbat
19-07-2010, 02:28
Far as I interpret the rules... Anything that adds dice to your pool does so when all other power dice generation is done; at the start of the phase.Sure you can play your magic items that way if you so choose, just don't expect all your opponents to play their magic items in that manner (apart from the items that in their rules say they have to be used at the start).

Balerion
19-07-2010, 02:34
Items that do not say they must be used at the start can be used at anytime during the phase under item 3. Keep in mind that while they may not require you to announce at the start, you can always choose to do so as the start is still "during the phase".
Yeah, but then what the hell's the point of your revised checklist? The fundamental bedrock of 09Project's original post was establishing that those powers/items were used at the beginning of the phase, alongside the Winds of Magic generation.


Sure you can play your magic items that way if you so choose, just don't expect all your opponents to play their magic items in that manner (apart from the items that in their rules say they have to be used at the start).
"7th Edition Tally (High Elf): 60W/42D/41L"




Oh. ;)

Doommasters
19-07-2010, 02:35
Sure you can play your magic items that way if you so choose, just don't expect all your opponents to play their magic items in that manner (apart from the items that in their rules say they have to be used at the start).

Then are you not just back to the same place we are now?

CaptScott
19-07-2010, 02:35
Easiest thing would be 'you can use up to 12 dice in your magic phase'.

Done.

No matter what special abilities/regen, once you've physically rolled 12 dice your phase is over.

Foxbat
19-07-2010, 02:59
Then are you not just back to the same place we are now?Not exactly, the difference is that you get to choose when to use the item. Just keep in mind that items that you announce at the start of your opponent's magic phase get "sequenced" in whatever order he or she likes.

Foxbat
19-07-2010, 03:05
Easiest thing would be 'you can use up to 12 dice in your magic phase'.

Done.

No matter what special abilities/regen, once you've physically rolled 12 dice your phase is over.Using a hard cap is likely not all that fucntional given the many items, spells, and special abilities already present in the current Army Books. Further, it would really make the Lore Attribute for the Lore of Death far less attractive.

SideshowLucifer
19-07-2010, 03:14
No to mention with everything else I lost from my army, I would not realish losing the one useful thing we kept rather exclusivly.

Atrum Angelus
19-07-2010, 03:16
"The casting player's power pool can never exceed 12 dice at any point in the phase - any dice generated beyond this number are lost." BRB, pg 30. Emphasis mine.

At any point in the phase - not per phase.

CaptScott
19-07-2010, 03:20
Drats. It just seems to me that by using all these bonus dice its going to take the balance out of the system.

Then again, with Focused Rumination my Slann would be able to take 3-4 extra dice per phase... and would know every spell from any lore...

edit: and has cupped hands... and can make you remove any 6's to cast... and can get 2 bonus dispel dice...

Foxbat
19-07-2010, 03:27
"The casting player's power pool can never exceed 12 dice at any point in the phase - any dice generated beyond this number are lost." BRB, pg 30. Emphasis mine.

At any point in the phase - not per phase.And what happens to the number of dice in the casting pool after every casting attempt? It goes down right? Dice added back during the phase just can’t take it above 12 or if it does any PD above that when added are lost.

Dungeon_Lawyer
19-07-2010, 03:32
Yes, but the limit is only at any given time, not total used throughout the phase.

Yup Thats how I read it.

Atrum Angelus
19-07-2010, 03:33
And what happens to the number of dice in the casting pool after every casting attempt? It goes down right? Dice added back during the phase just can’t take it above 12 or if it does any PD above that when added are lost.

Exactly.
The 'pool' may never exceed 12 PD at any point.
Think of your pool as a 12 litre tub. Every spell uses a given amount of "litres" (ie. PD) of magic. However, spells, such as the Power of Darkness, can add more magic back into that tub, but if it you fill it too much, it spills over and that magic is lost.

Doommasters
19-07-2010, 04:01
Exactly.
The 'pool' may never exceed 12 PD at any point.
Think of your pool as a 12 litre tub. Every spell uses a given amount of "litres" (ie. PD) of magic. However, spells, such as the Power of Darkness, can add more magic back into that tub, but if it you fill it too much, it spills over and that magic is lost.

Agreed the same as before, the idea of a hard cap of 12 is just to sad to even think about i am glad this isn't the case.



It is also a shame that magic does not scale very well, we are going to be playing a 5000 pt game but can't work out how to make magic work.

Any ideas? (we want to be able to generate more than 12 PD but at the same time be balanced)

Atrum Angelus
19-07-2010, 07:11
Agreed the same as before, the idea of a hard cap of 12 is just to sad to even think about i am glad this isn't the case.



It is also a shame that magic does not scale very well, we are going to be playing a 5000 pt game but can't work out how to make magic work.

Any ideas? (we want to be able to generate more than 12 PD but at the same time be balanced)

Personally, if you want to house rule it, for every 1000 points above 2000, add 6 to the pool limit. Ie. 3000 = 18, 4000=24, etc.

Or, in legendary battles scale games, remove the cap.

I don't usually play games greater than 2500 points, so I'm not sure about the scaling issues.

ghostline
19-07-2010, 07:27
Magic phase doesn't need to scale. If your playing a 100,000 point battle. There will simply be too many troops for a mage to obliterate in one turn. There are spells that have army wide effects. Taking extra wizards just means that you have extra spell abilitys and a bigger chance of channeling power.

Kalandros
19-07-2010, 08:47
Simply don't scale it.

theunwantedbeing
19-07-2010, 09:07
It is also a shame that magic does not scale very well, we are going to be playing a 5000 pt game but can't work out how to make magic work.

Any ideas? (we want to be able to generate more than 12 PD but at the same time be balanced)

Rolling twice would be interesting.
So you roll 4d6 and pick the 2 highest for the dispel pool and the 4d6 total is the casting pool.
(rather than rolling for the winds twice and adding the totals as this is a little unfair on the dispelling player)

You would only need to do this per 4k or so though as the 2d6 limit works well enough upto 4k but then starts to be somewhat inadequate.

I was going to sugguest rolling the winds for each board area but that would result in a lot of crossover fire from one board area to the other and cause complications with who gets to dispel.

Vsurma
19-07-2010, 09:24
Agreed the same as before, the idea of a hard cap of 12 is just to sad to even think about i am glad this isn't the case.



It is also a shame that magic does not scale very well, we are going to be playing a 5000 pt game but can't work out how to make magic work.

Any ideas? (we want to be able to generate more than 12 PD but at the same time be balanced)

double the dice, roll 2d6 twice, both times caster gets both and defender gets the highest of the 2d6, both times.

So if I rol 4,3 and 5,2.

Caster would get 14 dice with the opponent getting 9. The mechanic stays the same, you get more dice to play with but the difference between power and dispel dice remains more or less constant. Which seems to be how it is supposed to work.

I know it might seem like a good idea to get more PD into play over DD but seeing how magic defense has been capped harder than offense I don't think it is a good idea.

Alternatively you could change the channeling to be that each caster level allows you to roll 1 dice rather than each caster.

CaptScott
19-07-2010, 09:24
It is also a shame that magic does not scale very well, we are going to be playing a 5000 pt game but can't work out how to make magic work.

Any ideas? (we want to be able to generate more than 12 PD but at the same time be balanced)

When Jervis was asked about magic in very large battles he said at that level you just work it out between yourselves. So I suggest just perhaps 3D6, with the highest and lowest used as dispel dice. 18 PD max.

slayerofmen
19-07-2010, 14:44
for the scaling of it to larger games i was thinking as is till 3000

30001-4000 get D3 more of both
40001-5000+D6 more of both

then after that every 1000pts +D6

i think however you could just say after 3000pts start splitting your forces into smaller forces ie: VC army gets to 3000 and take an allied VC army of 1500pts so you can roll 2D6 for both forces problem solved that's 4D6 power dice at 4500pts or even 4000.

infact you could play a 3500pts allies game and take a 500pts "ally" army and fill it with casters and such

EDIT: granted doing that wont give you a potential 24PD for one caster, but this way there is no scaling needed as they are two separate forces they both get 2D6 and a cap of 12

Doommasters
20-07-2010, 01:11
Magic phase doesn't need to scale. If your playing a 100,000 point battle. There will simply be too many troops for a mage to obliterate in one turn. There are spells that have army wide effects. Taking extra wizards just means that you have extra spell abilitys and a bigger chance of channeling power.

In a big battle you might have 3 lvl 4 mages though so wouldn't that mean you should have more killing power.

We will try the 4d6 style and let you know how it goes, about to play a game now:

Lizardmen & Wood Elves vs WoC and Skaven

Good guys are defending a temple in forest and get 3500 points each and the Evil Hordes get 4000 points each. Going to be epic!

Doommasters
21-07-2010, 04:38
Ok we almost finished the game but it got too late. The Lizardmen and WE would have probably won due to the insane amount of Glade Guard the WE player took (i think it was over 100!). They had the AP banner and when looking like they would get into trouble just ran behind the Saurus. The Skaven fluffed allot of his ranged attacks and blew up allot of his own units with miscasts. Mark of the Nurgle warriors with frenzy banner were the MVP's of the evil side but anyway...

The 4D6 didn't work that well, as it was almost the same amount of spells went off as would have if it was only 2D6. Not sure what the statistics are but it felt meh from the magic side of things.

We decided after the game the best way to increase PD would be to change the way PD can be channelled.
So we came up with this system that we will try next time:

Roll 2D6 as normal (No max PD pool size)

Generate extra PD
LvL 1: Channel on 5+ (not 4+ so as to stop the lvl 1 spam that we thought might happen)
LvL 2: Channel on 3+
LvL 3: Channel on 2+
LvL 4: Adds and extra PD to the pool automatically

Generate extra DD
LvL 1: Channel on 6+
LvL 2: Channel on 5+
LvL 3: Channel on 4+
LvL 4: Channel on 2+

The main reason for this was becasue it added a side battle to the magic phase which seemed the warhammer way. Wizards etc putting their wills against each other before it even came to casting spells.

We rolled some dice and it seemed to work out ok, yet to test in a game.

Thoughts?

Trains_Get_Robbed
21-07-2010, 05:32
Just add a D6 for ever 1000 points after 2,999 and add limit of max PD up by six. If done this way and the game is played that you can activate you magic items whenever you want one would easily have enough dice to satisfy phase. For example at a 3,000 point game you roll 3D6 and your opponet gets top 2 for DD amd the cap for PD is 18.

Doommasters
21-07-2010, 05:39
Just add a D6 for ever 1000 points after 2,999 and add limit of max PD up by six. If done this way and the game is played that you can activate you magic items whenever you want one would easily have enough dice to satisfy phase. For example at a 3,000 point game you roll 3D6 and your opponet gets top 2 for DD amd the cap for PD is 18.

We thought about this, but when we did some test rolls it made the magic phase worse than before as there are more DD in comparison to PD than the standard 2D6. We also decided that we didnt want to have heaps of dispell dice and have a single lvl 4 being able to reap the rewards the same goes for PD. Thus we decided that channelling was the better option as it meant that if you wanted a stronger magic phase you had to build an army to get it.

Reddog
23-07-2010, 16:19
It's official. Once a die is rolled, it no longer counts against the 12 dice limit.

jet_palero
23-07-2010, 17:11
It's official. Once a die is rolled, it no longer counts against the 12 dice limit.


Q: Can I use more than 12 power or dispel dice in a phase even
though the pool is limited to 12? (p30)
A: Yes. While the pool can never contain more than 12 power
or dispel dice at any one time, some abilities can generate
more dice part way through a Magic phase.

Yes indeed, question resolved.

sliganian
23-07-2010, 18:36
Yes indeed, question resolved.


Ok, so I am an HE player and I take a 'Jewel of the Dusk' (+1 PowerDie). Is the concept now that I can choose NOT to add +1 my pool at the start but instead add it in later? Does this also imply that I can decide to use the Banner of Sorcery at some later time in the Magic Phase?

See, to me, the FAQ does not clear that aspect up.

I guess I saw things like Jewel and Banner as 'general' items that add to pool at the start, whereas I could concede that one-use PowerStone type things (incident specific as opposed to general) would be on as 'as used' basis.

As others said, we GET that the 12 cap is a floating value. However, where there is disagreement is on WHEN certain items get used, as in-phase timing did not ever come into consideration when most magic buff items were written.

Simondo
23-07-2010, 18:44
Ok, so I am an HE player and I take a 'Jewel of the Dusk' (+1 PowerDie). Is the concept now that I can choose NOT to add +1 my pool at the start but instead add it in later? Does this also imply that I can decide to use the Banner of Sorcery at some later time in the Magic Phase?

See, to me, the FAQ does not clear that aspect up.

I guess I saw things like Jewel and Banner as 'general' items that add to pool at the start, whereas I could concede that one-use PowerStone type things (incident specific as opposed to general) would be on as 'as used' basis.

As others said, we GET that the 12 cap is a floating value. However, where there is disagreement is on WHEN certain items get used, as in-phase timing did not ever come into consideration when most magic buff items were written.


As I see it, unless the item specifically says that it happens at the beginning of the turn (like some do) then they can be used whenever during that phase. For example, if I roll 11 power dice, I'm going to cast one or two spells before rolling for my Banner.

sliganian
23-07-2010, 18:48
As I see it, unless the item specifically says that it happens at the beginning of the turn (like some do) then they can be used whenever during that phase. For example, if I roll 11 power dice, I'm going to cast one or two spells before rolling for my Banner.

This also lets us be b*stards on WHEN we use the "Annulian Crystal"

Player A: " With my last two powerdice, I will cast...

HE PlayerB: "Oh, not so much TWO powerdice. *steal*" ;)

Player A: :mad:

Justicar Valius
23-07-2010, 18:51
The only way you can beat the cap is by casting power of darkness later in your phase after getting 12 power dice naturaly (through channeling, magic items etc). When it can blatently be done whenever in the phase (such as with casting a spell).

The_Lemon
23-07-2010, 19:00
Generating power/dispell dice happens BEFORE you start casting the first spell, so banners, powers, items, etc that add power/dispell dice to teh pool do so before you cast the spell. There are a few exceptions like slann's extra dice, or DE dagger but not many.

Reddog
23-07-2010, 19:05
Generating power/dispell dice happens BEFORE you start casting the first spell, so banners, powers, items, etc that add power/dispell dice to teh pool do so before you cast the spell. There are a few exceptions like slann's extra dice, or DE dagger but not many.

I would agree with this but the question in the FAQ only mentions items that generate dice at the beginning of the magic phase.

So others will say this doesn't apply to items and abilities that don't specifically mention when they occur.

badguyshaveallthefun
23-07-2010, 19:06
Generating power/dispell dice happens BEFORE you start casting the first spell, so banners, powers, items, etc that add power/dispell dice to teh pool do so before you cast the spell. There are a few exceptions like slann's extra dice, or DE dagger but not many.

This was true in 7th, when it was explicitly stated that dice were generated at the beginning of the phase. It's not now.

The special abilities that add dice MUST SPECIFIY IN THEIR DESCRIPTION that they add at the beginning of the phase in order for your interpretation to be accurate. Otherwise they're now allowed to add dice at any time during the phase.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, I don't have my rulebook with me (I'm at work) so I can't back this up with page numbers or anything, but I'm pretty sure that this is now how the magic phase is done.

Llew
23-07-2010, 19:08
Directly from the GW 8th Ed. FAQ that was just released:

Q: Do dice that have been ‘removed’ from the pool to cast a spell
still count against the power limit? (p30)
A: Yes. They count against the power limit until the moment
they are rolled, at which point they are ‘used up’ and no
longer count against the power limit.

Q: If I have a special rule that generates power or dispel dice at
the start of the Magic phase, when are these dice added to the
pool?(p30)
A: They are added after rolling for the Winds of Magic but
before any casting attempts have been made.

Q: Can I use more than 12 power or dispel dice in a phase even
though the pool is limited to 12? (p30)
A: Yes. While the pool can never contain more than 12 power
or dispel dice at any one time, some abilities can generate
more dice part way through a Magic phase.

Peril
23-07-2010, 19:19
Well, then. I apologize. You can still min/max the magic phase and comepletely obliterate your opponent with little to no chance of defense. Great.

loveless
23-07-2010, 19:44
You can still min/max the magic phase and comepletely obliterate your opponent with little to no chance of defense. Great.

Disagree. I'd still say the various instances of the "Refill" ability are far enough between that it's going to be far less deadly than everyone expects.

Also remember that Irresistable Force now causes deliciously disastrous Miscasts, and there's always that chance that the Wizard will lose their concentration and kill off the magic phase long before they get to use all those bonus dice.

Atrum Angelus
24-07-2010, 04:51
I'm willing to bet that in the next set of racial FAQ's, all items that generate power dice will be errata'ed to say [...] "at the beginning of the magic phase" [...].

I'm also glad to be shown correct.

pootleberry
25-07-2010, 08:32
Something came up in a game last night which is rather fun, and potentially nasty. Both the Dwarfs and HE have an item which removes power dice from your opponent to add to your dispel dice pool. Question being: when are these dice removed? It doesn't specify, as far as I'm aware, that these dice must be removed at the start of the magic phase. Sooo, if someone's just about to cast something and they only have two dice left can you use the item immediately to 'pinch' these dice?

We couldn't decide.

Nasty if you can though...

HannibalSW
25-07-2010, 08:42
I'm surprised how fast GW put a FAQ out about this.

Azhrar
25-07-2010, 09:24
Something came up in a game last night which is rather fun, and potentially nasty. Both the Dwarfs and HE have an item which removes power dice from your opponent to add to your dispel dice pool. Question being: when are these dice removed? It doesn't specify, as far as I'm aware, that these dice must be removed at the start of the magic phase. Sooo, if someone's just about to cast something and they only have two dice left can you use the item immediately to 'pinch' these dice?

We couldn't decide.

Nasty if you can though...

I would definately say that dice are removed at the same time they are added e.g before any spells are cast.

rodmillard
25-07-2010, 10:13
Personally, I will be playing that anything that doesn't specifically say otherwise MUST be used at the beginning of the phase, or not at all, until the item descriptions are FAQed. I suspect this is how most tournament organisers will work it as well.

I know it sounds harsh, but it stops some of the possible abuses (like the annulian crystal/rune of balance thing) while keeping it fair for both players.

One scenario that has crossed my mind though - a common match up for me is HE v Dwarves. If the dwarf player takes the MR of balance, and my HE cap out at 12 with "overflow" magic from items, can I then top the pool back up to 12 with power from the banner/jewel of dusk?

I guess GW would give what seems to be their standard FAQ answer: "the player whose turn it is chooses the order [in which] the items take effect," In which case yes, I roll 12, here's one for you because of the rune, and now I'll draw the extra die from my item.