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Daemon Primarch Lorgar
16-07-2010, 11:04
Well what do you think? Should lances give an initiative boast now? I know they are still a very good weapon, I'm just thinking fluff wise. Especially now when they've toned down cavalry a little bit :). I play woodies so it wouldn't affect me though ;)..

tdc500
16-07-2010, 11:50
yes! (and i need more letters....)

Duke Georgal
16-07-2010, 11:50
Lances and pikes should both be ASF on the turn that a charge takes place. Lances if they charge, pikes if they are charged.

Oh well... too late for 8th edition rules.

slayerofmen
16-07-2010, 11:51
i wouldn't mind seeing that but we have at least 4 years to wait now.

having said that i can see a rule being written into the brett book when (or if) it comes out that goes something along the lines of, the lance formation removes a units steadfast on the turn it charges...........

or something along those lines otherwise bretts are fethed

Lord of the End Times
16-07-2010, 11:58
I agree. Lances should have ASF on the charge. This should be negated by charging spears or pikes to the front. IMHO this would be more realistic.

Col. Dash
16-07-2010, 12:09
Not even that. There are quite a few instances where lances were longer than pikes, Polish Hussars used 18 foot lances which are longer than the vaunted Swedish pikes. The idea remains the same, does high init = stupidity? "I am going to run up the lance, hit the rider, then run back down the lance and stand in front of it to be hit". Unfortunately to be realistic, all big weapons would have to go first before hand weapons in a descending order, andl it would take was an easy chart to follow as to who has ASF on the charge(following melee rounds would be at Init since melee takes away the range advantage).
Lance>Spear>Polearm/Halberds>Great sword>hand weapon (was it really that hard?)
Also remember, spears in this game are not true spears but instead are the 6 foot thrusting spears and not any ten foot monsters.

Memnos
16-07-2010, 12:17
It does seem silly that Brettonians charge in against High Elf Phoenix Guard, who jump up and dance along the lance tip to smack the Knight, then run back and jump down to be hit by said lancetip.

slayerofmen
16-07-2010, 12:23
well the "attack" might not be happening by the very first guy it could be happening by the third, or the brett lance could hit the first horsemen gets unhorsed and the second one comes through and kills the elf that kill the first guy

Zaonite
16-07-2010, 12:26
I envisage something like - If the opponent's I value is higher than the lance wielding model then they strike simultaneously regardless of ASF.
Obviously if the lance wielding model's I value is higher than his opponent's he goes first.
I can see this approach being very balanced for both parties involved.

CrystalSphere
16-07-2010, 12:27
In 3rd edition they did just what you say, they had +2 initiative +2 strength and ap on the first turn of combat after the charge. Then after the first round of combat they counted as hand weapons (it represents that the knigths draw his sword) until the knigth charged again.

Hrolf the Ganger
16-07-2010, 13:00
There are quite a few instances where lances were longer than pikes, Polish Hussars used 18 foot lances which are longer than the vaunted Swedish pikes.

But surely not in most instances?:)

Anyway, the way I see it is that Initiative should not determine who strikes first in the first round of combat; the length of the weapon would decide that, with initiative as a tiebreaker. Then, in subsequent rounds, Initiative should be used, as models have gotten past the maximum range of the enemies weapons.

Otherwise the situation would be like Col. Dash describes it, that models run past the enemies weapon, attack, and then run back...

But that is how it is now, and I don't think that it is BAD, but I would rather have it another way...

apbevan
16-07-2010, 21:05
I think Lances are balanced the way they are against all the other weapons.

This topic is not about lances needed to strike first on the charge or get an initiative bonus its about changing the rules on how weapons and and striking on the charge works.

Volker the Mad Fiddler
16-07-2010, 21:28
I think Lances are balanced the way they are against all the other weapons.

This topic is not about lances needed to strike first on the charge or get an initiative bonus its about changing the rules on how weapons and and striking on the charge works.

Actually, I do not think lances are currently balanced. Knights will rarely get to benefit [and certainly do not benefit as much as infantry] from the step up and supporting attack rules so it is quite possible now for high Int units to actually blunt a knightly charge by striking first and reducing the attacks against them. Lances should get some Int. or ASF on the charge.

loveless
16-07-2010, 21:28
This topic is not about lances needed to strike first on the charge or get an initiative bonus its about changing the rules on how weapons and and striking on the charge works.

Are you sure?


Well what do you think? Should lances give an initiative boast now? I know they are still a very good weapon, I'm just thinking fluff wise. Especially now when they've toned down cavalry a little bit :). I play woodies so it wouldn't affect me though ;)..

jet_palero
16-07-2010, 21:48
I was kind of surprised they removed strike first on the charge. I thought the step up rule would have been enough.

SYN Ace
16-07-2010, 21:59
Yeah me too.

theunwantedbeing
16-07-2010, 22:01
Its strange that they didnt grant ASF on the charge as that would have made a lot of sense.

Aside from the re-rolls to hit that is.....

najo
17-07-2010, 03:49
I like to add my vote for lances always strike first on the charge. I think that solves alot of issues knights face against infantry now and rebalances them better.

Skywave
17-07-2010, 06:39
Its strange that they didnt grant ASF on the charge as that would have made a lot of sense.

Aside from the re-rolls to hit that is.....

I would have liked something like charger double their I on the turn they charge (to the usual maximum of 10), would have helped a few unit I think.

Sygerrik
17-07-2010, 08:00
Lance don't have ASF for the same reason that units don't suffer Ld penalties if their Champion dies in a challenge, that there's no weather or misinterpreting orders tables, that there are no options for box, echelon or wedge formations...

The game is not perfectly realistic. There's a lot of abstraction going on. Too much detail in the rules bogs the game down in meaningless minutiae. If lances get ASF on the turn they charge, I vote they are a "one use per battle" item, as the force of impact would tend to splinter lances and render them useless as weapons.

Odin
17-07-2010, 10:44
I think there ought to be the following Initiative modifiers (in 9th edition maybe...!)

Lances +2 Initiative on the charge
Mounted Spears +1 Initiative on the charge
Infantry Spears +1 Initiative when receiving a charge
Great Weapons -2 Initiative (instead of ASL)

Wednesday Friday Addams
17-07-2010, 10:46
Halberds as well?

Cragspyder
17-07-2010, 18:43
Also remember, spears in this game are not true spears but instead are the 6 foot thrusting spears and not any ten foot monsters.

Pretty sure all the spears I have seen on models have been roughly double the height of the model. Assuming a model is supposed to be roughly 5 feet tall, that makes them 10 foot spears in nearly all cases.

I dunno why I am nitpicking about this though.

terrion
17-07-2010, 21:00
Its strange that they didnt grant ASF on the charge as that would have made a lot of sense.

Aside from the re-rolls to hit that is.....

And herein lies the problem. ASF lances would make the existing super-cav kind of ridiculous.

For a different take, what about making them Strike in Ranks, and adding a line to the SiR rules that they strike as if they had ASF in the first round, but don't recieve rerolls? That covers spears vs. lances. swords, allows ranked cavalry to be fielded by someone other than Brets and doesn't overpower blood knights and the like (since they won't be fielded in 2 ranks and will probably already strike first).

DDogwood
17-07-2010, 22:24
or something along those lines otherwise bretts are fethed

Yeah, they'll have to rely on actual tactics (and a really nice armor save) instead of using the easy button.

Terrible.