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TsukeFox
19-07-2010, 18:43
So after watching some YouTube battle reports and reading reports (thanks all who have posted !!) it seems that magic defense is lacking compared to te uber powerful nw college magic. Sure there are some one time use scrolls, maybe always take a lvl 4, but is that realy the answer? Seems like my character points will be gobbled up in scrolls,/book of ashur, that will be mote if te other player total powers his spell-6dice the odds are fair.

Snake1311
19-07-2010, 20:35
Items that steal / generate extra dispel dice are the new black. Yes, on occasion some IF will go through; but if you think about it it will still be less damage than the equivalent points of shooting would have done.

Rajhald
19-07-2010, 20:47
I know for my Lizards I will ALWAYS have the diadem, 2 extra dice for dispell will be awesome. Also the scroll that lets you add to your dispell pool the equal number of dice that your opponent just used to cast with can be helpful in a pinch, but it is quite expensive.

Other than those specific things, as Snake said anything that generates or allows you to carry over dice will be almost necessary.

Ultimate Life Form
19-07-2010, 20:49
When the enemy total powers his spells he also blows up, which should be very much in your interest.

Lord of Divine Slaughter
19-07-2010, 20:55
Magic isn't a guarantee. You're just as likely to generate 2 as 12 PD, and if "6-die" your spells, then you won't cast more than one in an average 7 PD magic phase :)

In my few 8th ed. games, magic has accomplished absolutely nothing, but it certainly had the potential to wreak havoc :)

wyvirn
19-07-2010, 21:02
In my few games of 8th, I found that dwarfs are fairly well off in magic defence, if you spend around 200 points on a runelord and a rune of balance, with the option for an anvil or another runesmith if needed. Only if your opponent rolls box cars will he out magic dice you.

AFnord
19-07-2010, 21:05
Magic seem to have gone up in potential but down in actual effect. The few spells that will go of are more spectacular than ever (or at least more spectacular than anything on this side of 4th edition, short of a certain high magic spell vs undead), but fewer spells will be cast. Magic also does not scale the way it did before, meaning that the unstoppable magic phase is a thing of the past.
Level 4 mages are incredibly powerful (as they should be, most of them costs (with equipment) more than 400 points!), its just that if you bring a level 4 mage, his buddies (the level 1s and 2s) won't be able to do as much as they used to, as you will simply run out of PD. This encourages people to take other things than mages, and you don't actually need a scroll caddy in every tournament army.

GodlessM
19-07-2010, 21:05
Wow people are still whining about magic. If you absolutely can't wrap your head around how something so uncertain can't possibly be overpowered, try actually playing a game or two. Magic is fine, fun, not too powerful unless you get lucky or your opponent is a tosser.

Whitesox
19-07-2010, 21:15
Magic in 8th is manageable...

Magic in 7th wasnt

At the very most your opponent would have 12 dice if they are lucky and you would still get 6 dispel dice. On average you are going to have 3.5 dispel dice less then your opponents power dice. In 7th I had games when my opponent had 17 power dice to my 7 dispel.

If I want a decent defence I find a few magic items work wonders (Staff of sneaky stealing and if I'm against elvish magic add the Spirit Totem).

Magic in this edition is different which doesnt mean it is automatically better

Idle Scholar
19-07-2010, 21:17
Magic is fine unless you get lucky or your opponent is a tosser.

I think the same could be applied to 7th ;)

edit: Just to make this less snipy. Magic does seem a lot better and a lot more manageable. But I still don't like the idea that once in a while I can get nuked, so 1.5 thumbs up. Also there is the issue with some lists that can reliably get 12+ PD a turn irrespective of the winds of magic and/or don't really care about most of the miscasts.

Leogun_91
19-07-2010, 21:26
I like the new magic but I'll soon see how it works with TK and until then I wont judge it.

BattleofLund
19-07-2010, 21:29
Not that I have great masses of 8th experience (2 games so far), but of the Arcane Defence one-use items, only the Dispel Scroll is a keeper for me.
The rest are too unreliable for their cost.

Preventing magic spells from a determined enemy will be hard. More PD will be generated, generally, than DD. IF casting disallowing dispelling. Still, take extra DD if you can.

Not the same with magic damage: either take your lumps, ie have redundancy in model count and unit count (Greenskins, Skaven, Empire etc), or invest in Magic Resistance. So far I have leaned towards the 'Protect underlings? Ludicrous!' school of thought, but then those underlings have been greenskinned thugs. Serves them right to become emeralds for failing to dodge!

Dokushin
19-07-2010, 21:30
I've won a couple of games against Teclis (the best caster in the game) spamming Purple Sun (one of the best spells in the game) playing as Lizardmen (one of the most vulnerable armies to Purple Sun). And if you can win against magic when you don't even get the freaking option to dispel it (I'm not bitter) then you can win against it anytime.

Just don't sweat it. Bring some useful trinkets -- a scroll, a power die stealer, something like that -- and send some stuff over there to kill the mage. It's just like a S5 grudge thrower or BS5 S8 bolt thrower -- yeah, it's super dangerous, so get over there and kill it.

Snake1311
19-07-2010, 21:33
On average you are going to have 3.5 dispel dice less then your opponents power dice.

The number is actually 2.5 due to taking the higher die of the two.

Sorry for being anal, but in compensation, it strongly supports your statement :)

HeroFox
19-07-2010, 21:36
So after watching some YouTube battle reports and reading reports (thanks all who have posted !!) it seems that magic defense is lacking compared to te uber powerful nw college magic. Sure there are some one time use scrolls, maybe always take a lvl 4, but is that realy the answer? Seems like my character points will be gobbled up in scrolls,/book of ashur, that will be mote if te other player total powers his spell-6dice the odds are fair.

Mind showing us the links of the youtube battle reports?

SYN Ace
19-07-2010, 22:26
There is some powerful magic, but personally haven't run into anything terrible yet. The only thing that worries me are the armies that can in theory max out on power dice and then replenish their pool up as they expend dice (haven't faced one yet but a friend was telling me some horror stories). Think I'll be taking Aldred's Casket of Sorcery in my Empire army for sure.

Scallat
19-07-2010, 23:30
Wow people are still whining about magic. If you absolutely can't wrap your head around how something so uncertain can't possibly be overpowered, try actually playing a game or two. Magic is fine, fun, not too powerful unless you get lucky or your opponent is a tosser.

This argument always drives me spoony.

Well, these arguments really.

First it is random, you can't rely on it to win you the game. I think this is actually a problem given the power of the new lores. You can essentially win/lose the game on a single spell cast. I've seen 3 games of fantasy 8th edition and it's happened twice.

Second if you have to rely on your opponent not to be a tosser then it IS too powerful. A good game doesn't contain options that ruin the game.

enigma-96
19-07-2010, 23:55
With my Gobbos I am a happy camper as I can easily gain 5 dispel dice before dice are even rolled. 3 for spirit totem (so I cheat a bit and include a single orc, whadya gonna do bout it? ;) ) 1 for sneaky stealin, and one "virtual" one due to the enemy losing a power dice. Likewise with the book of ashur I'm dispelling on a +5 and I have a dispell scroll handy for must stops.

All in all I would say my opponents in the last 11 games have got maybe 3-4 spells off IN TOTAL, I.e. in all those games only 3-4 (maybe 5) spells have been cast on my gobbos. The amusing part is that I frequently verse a decked out slann.

TheMav80
19-07-2010, 23:55
With my LM I've been winning games not by casting spells at my opponent so much as just buffing my own. Mainly through the Lore of Light or Lore of Life.

Doommasters
20-07-2010, 00:55
1) LvL 4 vampire with +1 to cast and Dispell +5

2) Three corpse carts -3 to cast

3) -8 to cast for you!

4) Black Coach, steal Power Dice!

5) Dispell Scroll

6) Good Luck!

Paraelix
20-07-2010, 07:00
There are plenty of uber defence builds... See Doommasters post...

Hell;
O&G
Lvl 4 Gobbo Shaman with Staff of Sneaky Stealing
3+ ranked unit with Mork's Spirit Totem

+4 dispel dice and opponent loses a power dice. Or chuck it on a smaller shaman and take the +1 to cast/dispel item from the rulebook.

Or play dwarves with multiple Smiths, runes for magic res/dispel dice and standard of Vallaya (for a further +2 and shutdown of Remains in Play spells). Added to the fact that dwarves get 2D6 dice for removing RiP spells in their turn anyway >_>

DarkstarSabre
20-07-2010, 07:10
When the enemy total powers his spells he also blows up, which should be very much in your interest.

But if said enemy who starts doing this is a Slann.....

Well, you can pretty much kiss your highest level wizard goodbye the first time he does this.

Vsurma
20-07-2010, 09:41
I know for my Lizards I will ALWAYS have the diadem, 2 extra dice for dispell will be awesome. Also the scroll that lets you add to your dispell pool the equal number of dice that your opponent just used to cast with can be helpful in a pinch, but it is quite expensive.

Other than those specific things, as Snake said anything that generates or allows you to carry over dice will be almost necessary.

I see no reason to take this one unless I have already taken a dispel scroll.

Why pay 50pts for a chance to dispel a spell, when 25pts buys you a guarantee.

Vsurma
20-07-2010, 11:01
1) LvL 4 vampire with +1 to cast and Dispell +5

2) Three corpse carts -3 to cast

3) -8 to cast for you!

4) Black Coach, steal Power Dice!

5) Dispell Scroll

6) Good Luck!

Well, my slann has +4 and a free dice so +7.5 essentially.

All your defence merely matches what I have, caster always has more PD then you have DD, even with the coach most of the time.

Good defense no doubt but as has been mentioned its not a cheap setup.
With the necessary core it is most of your army already.

I think vamps have it pretty good, they can have great magic offence and defence.

Hooha
20-07-2010, 13:32
I know for my Lizards I will ALWAYS have the diadem, 2 extra dice for dispell will be awesome. Also the scroll that lets you add to your dispell pool the equal number of dice that your opponent just used to cast with can be helpful in a pinch, but it is quite expensive.

Other than those specific things, as Snake said anything that generates or allows you to carry over dice will be almost necessary.

I'm glad to see you didn't mention "Cupped hands of the Cheating Ones" - that item is so rediculously overbrokenpowered now, I'm seriously considering refusing to play any lizardman player who runs it. And I'm the guy that runs four hydras! (Not that that will save a DE player anymore)

"Why yes, I'd like to irresistably cast a massive, game-changing spell with no downside for myself, AND wipe out a wizard or two of yours in the process! All for just 45 points!"


There is some powerful magic, but personally haven't run into anything terrible yet. The only thing that worries me are the armies that can in theory max out on power dice and then replenish their pool up as they expend dice (haven't faced one yet but a friend was telling me some horror stories). Think I'll be taking Aldred's Casket of Sorcery in my Empire army for sure.

After 8th ed neutered Corsairs, Lokir, and Black Guard, the type of list you mention is what I have converted my DE's into.

I don't have the list handy right this moment, but some 5 sorceressess and a Supreme Sorceress should be able to channel me an extra dice or two, but more importantly, every one of them is packing The Power of Darkness (cast on a 4+, provides D3+1 power dice). Worse still, I intend to give all the sorceress the default spell in the Lore of Shadows, the one that can give -D3 to one of four stats (Or all four if you pump it up, but I'm only interested in initiative). The goal is to drop multiple opposing units' initiative to 1 or 2, then hurl a boosted (large template travelling 3D6, I think) Purple Sun of Xereus from my Supreme Sorceress. With a bit of luck, this should swallow whole units. Best of all, it stays in play but is not a 'stays in play' spell, so I could get 2 or 3 out there floating around the battlefield swallowing units every turn.

That said, it's the best I could do with 'new' darkelves, and while it could be extremely powerful in theory, I have to assume it would be extremely inconsistant at best, and downright unreliable at worst.

You've got nothing to fear. I have no doubts that 8th Ed has put the Empire head and shoulders above all other army books, assuming you're willing to open the choke on your book and not cram up your list with a bunch of stuff Empire players like the sound of, but that don't really work. I'm looking at you, EVERY close combat unit in the empire army book!

Imagine this; How about instead of a casket of sorcery, which is weak and unreliable, you make your core choices handgunners. All 770 points of them, if we're talking a 3000 point game. Buy hochlands and musicians for each unit. Then take 6 units of 10 Outriders, each with a hochland and musician. Comes to about 1450 points. Reinforce your magic phase and magic defense with two Arch Lectors (Arguably the best spammable anti-magic points in the game anywhere at this point), a Lvl 4 wizard, and a gaggle of 3 lvl 1 Wizards, packing dispell scroll, the 45 point empire dispell scroll that can make the wizard lose the spell, Staff of Sorcery, and Rod of Power.

Now, not only do you have more than enough anti-magic to halt anything but an irresistable miscast that I throw at you, but your best magic defense is, as they say, a good offence. That is, murding all my armorless, save-free T3 sorceresses out of their units with your 13 hochlands. Two of which will be extra lethal because of the Hammer of Sigmar prayer they'll recieve from your arch-lectors. Also, your lvl 4 wizard takes Lore of Fire, so he can Flaming Sword of Rhuin a unit of outriders, and your small wizards take Lore of metal so one of them can cast the augment spell that aides shooting on the same unit, and those Outdriders will drop those 27 shots and be hitting my elves on 3s or 4s and wounding on 2s, with -2 to my armor save and no regen. Also, the hochland in that unit would be hitting on 2's even if he's sniping and shooting at log range, and rerolling any 1's you managed to throw because of hammer of sigmar.

I'd trade my DEs for that army in a hot minute. That's 225 S4 armor piercing shots per turn that will usually be hitting on 5s (sometimes better because of close range or augments spells, sometimes worse because of hexes or cover) plus an additional 13 hochland rounds. And guns don't miscast or misfire, so you have consistancey and reliability on your side.

GodlessM
20-07-2010, 14:24
But I still don't like the idea that once in a while I can get nuked

That's kind of the point of what it represents. There have been battles in the Warhammer World where one spell that built up too much power ended a battle there and then.


Second if you have to rely on your opponent not to be a tosser then it IS too powerful. A good game doesn't contain options that ruin the game.

What ruins a game is a matter of total opinion. More importantly, everything in existance has something within itself to potentially ruin itself; nothing is perfect, get over it. Cheryl Cole has that super-annoying accent yet you'd still bang her; you'd just gag her and get on with it.

Djekar
20-07-2010, 14:27
No, I wouldn't. But I think your point itself is valid. There have been several battle reps where the spells where crucial (I've been following Don Zeko, Malorian and Oncebitten in particular on youtube, but there are great text reps here on the WS). It didn't come off as whining to me, but more of a "since these spells are so powerful, what do I do about them"? But of course, your mileage may vary.

~PrometheuS~
20-07-2010, 14:50
Well, my slann has +4 and a free dice so +7.5 essentially.

All your defence merely matches what I have, caster always has more PD then you have DD, even with the coach most of the time.

Good defense no doubt but as has been mentioned its not a cheap setup.
With the necessary core it is most of your army already.

I think vamps have it pretty good, they can have great magic offence and defence.

Vamps need something, they got smash with the nerf bat hard :(

Draconian77
20-07-2010, 16:49
Some armies can get access to decent magic defense and some armies can't. In other words, the exact same situation as 7th edition. At least in this edition your opponent might roll for a low amount of PD.

Whitesox
20-07-2010, 16:55
Some armies can get access to decent magic defense and some armies can't. In other words, the exact same situation as 7th edition. At least in this edition your opponent might roll for a low amount of PD.

Exactly

If you come unprepared against a magic heavy list you will get owned... wheres the difference to 7th edition?!?

At least 8th has the chance of generating a crap phase

Jetty Smurf
20-07-2010, 18:55
Book of Hoeth + Banner of Sorcery = I didn't get to use the majority of my dispel dice throughout the game.

Not a whine, as I play LM, and we all know the Slann's capabilities. Just wish I knew a counter-measure to this (if one exists).

Overall I am pretty happy with magic in 8th (only played a few games so far). Honestly, I am pretty happy with everything so far in 8th.

Gaargod
20-07-2010, 19:32
Teclis is still the irritating exception to the rule. With his staff + Banner of sorcery, he gets on average 11 dice to play with. But more annoyingly, you just don't get to use dispel dice most of the time - he can reliably push 2 spells a turn through whatever defense (although, doing so with the Ring of Hotek around is not a good idea). More against armies with little defense. He also gives +5 to dispel and +D3 dice, which is a pain.
Basically, normal plan for dealing with Teclis. Hit him a big stick.


Against other armies, even Slann who are probably the best casters otherwise (and yes, i include Kairos in that. Rumination is crazy good). Even just a lv4 means you get to stop a couple of spells a turn, whereas with no one/a lv2... you're lucky to do that.

Scallat
20-07-2010, 20:28
What ruins a game is a matter of total opinion. More importantly, everything in existance has something within itself to potentially ruin itself; nothing is perfect, get over it. Cheryl Cole has that super-annoying accent yet you'd still bang her; you'd just gag her and get on with it.

I don't even think that accent is annoying (since I'm from Newcastle) but I still wouldn't.

Anyway. I don't think "other things are also bad" is a good argument for accepting things that arn't ok.

You said magic was fine as long as your opponent wasn't a tosser. Which I took to mean that you meant it was fine aslong as your opponent didn't abuse it.

I submitted that if it's open to that kind of abuse that means that it is not fine. I don't think anyone's said anything yet to counter that assessment.

GodlessM
20-07-2010, 21:12
Probably because you are bringing random stuff into your argument. What abuse are you talking about? What way can it be abused? Who mentioned it being abused? This thread is about how some of the spells have the potential to be ridiculously game-breaking, but the operative word there is potential. For the high end spells such as Purple Sun and Dwellers Below there are a lot of variables that have to go your way, including rolling the spell in the first place, getting enough power dice, getting the casting value, getting the casting value of spells before so you don't run out of power, opponent has no dice to dispel, opponent fails to dispel, you don't miscast, they don't have a scroll, etc. And even then, they can easily pass the characteristic tests on most of their guys. If anything, the potential for more risk than reward is just as great as the opposite, so if that is overpowered than gee, better break out the all Ungor Beastmen army, 'cause if roll tonnes of 6's and my opponent rolls tonnes of 1's, his Skaven should be massacred in no time...