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Avian
21-07-2010, 09:57
I thought this would be useful for some players, given that the rules are still new out there. It's about Stone throwers and when you can fire directly and when you must fire indirectly.

Here's a recap of the relevant rules:

Firing a stone thrower (p 114)
To fire a stone thrower, take the small round (3") template and place it anywhere completely within the war machine's line of sight, outside of the stone thrower's minimum range and within its maximum range.

and

Firing indirectly
[...] An indirect shot does not require line of sight, but is otherwise treated as a normal shot [...].


The difference between the two is that direct shots don't scatter on a Hit, while indirect shots may. A direct shot is thus more accurate.


The two pictures below (featuring my Night Goblin Great Shaman who someone on another thread said was abusive) illustrate this. They are working off the assumption that you have to place the template horizontally immediately on top of the target and that the target itself doesn't block line of sight to the template.

The picture on the left shows an indirect shot as the template is partially blocked by the building. This is an inaccurate shot

The picture on the right shows a direct shot as the template is completely visible over the hill. This is an accurate shot.


Questions? Comments?

Atrahasis
21-07-2010, 09:59
Why do you assume that the target doesn't block LOS to the template?

Avian
21-07-2010, 10:03
I just do. I'm a bit strange that way. ;)

BigBossOgryn
21-07-2010, 10:07
I didn't think things blocking the placement of the template affected the shot. I just assumed if you couldn't place the template where you wanted it to land because something was in the way; that you elevated it to get an idea what you would hit (before scatter etc) and went from there.

yabbadabba
21-07-2010, 10:08
What are you asking Avian?

theorox
21-07-2010, 10:08
Wonderful. That explains a lot, Thanks Birdman! :D

Now go update the website lol! :P

Theo

H33D
21-07-2010, 10:11
Yeah weapons etc do not count for line of sight and so since the shaman is not in line of sight in the second picture that shot would be illegal.

The way I treat shooting a stone thrower or a grudge thrower in my case is as follows (and RAI, possibly RAW if you read it a different way):

Place the template in a location completely within LoS = the location must be in line of sight i.e: the target must be completely in LoS, nothing that is partially in LoS but not completely. The template itself doesn't require LoS because that makes no sense (why would a stone thrower need to see the entire area hit hits before it even shoots??) and the rule is asking for the "anywhere completely in LoS" not for the template to be in LoS.

Any target you can't see you can still declare a shot against but the accuracy of the shot is less. Holding a template in the air over the model so you can see the template and call it a normal shot is just plain unsportsmanlike. The result of the shots taken in your pictures should be backwards to how you have declared them.

This is just how I interpret them as it seems to be the most logical way to interpret the rules. Doing it the other way is just thinking WAY outside the box and the first guy to have come up with this bassackwards method needs to be smacked upside the head.

This is just my opinion, but seriously???

In addition, I believe the "anywhere completely within line of sight" was added to prevent people from declaring shots against units whose corners were visible and placing the template in the center of the unit where the entire template ends up in an area of the unit where you cant even see part of the template. You just have to place the template so it can be seen even a little bit.

TMATK
21-07-2010, 10:23
The picture on the left, accurate. Picture on the right, inaccurate.


Are you trying to say the template is the target?

Atrahasis
21-07-2010, 10:30
Are you trying to say the stone thrower rules, quoted in the thread, require LOS to the target, and not the template as stated?

H33D
21-07-2010, 10:33
I think that is what he's trying to say. The actual sentence on page 114 of the rulebook states: "To fire a stone thrower, take the small roune (3") template and place it anywhere completely within the war machine's line of sight..."

The way some people are interpreting this is "place the template completely in line of sight of the war machine".

I believe it is actually supposed to be read place the template "anywhere completely in line of sight of the war machine" where "anywhere" must be completely in line of sight, and not the template, as I don't see the importance of the template itself ending up in line of sight of the war machine.

And then an indirect shot does not require line of sight, which will be different depending on if you interpret the previous rule in the logical manner, or in the rather backwards manner mentioned at the start of the post.

H33D
21-07-2010, 10:34
Are you trying to say the stone thrower rules, quoted in the thread, require LOS to the target, and not the template as stated?

yeah.......?

yabbadabba
21-07-2010, 10:36
Firing a stone thrower (p 114)
To fire a stone thrower, take the small round (3") template and place it anywhere completely within the war machine's line of sight, outside of the stone thrower's minimum range and within its maximum range. In this only the place the template is put needs to be completely within the stonethrowers LOS, not the template or the target. To make it more accurate the phrasing should have been:
Firing a stone thrower (p 114)
To fire a stone thrower, take the small round (3") template and place it anywhere on a target that is completely within the war machine's line of sight, outside of the stone thrower's minimum range and within its maximum range.
Firing a stone thrower (p 114)
To fire a stone thrower, take the small round (3") template and place it anywhere so that the template is completely within the war machine's line of sight, outside of the stone thrower's minimum range and within its maximum range.


Firing indirectly
[...] An indirect shot does not require line of sight, but is otherwise treated as a normal shot [...]. This is anywhere, so technically you can target anywhere you can place the template.

Thats as quoted by the thread.

TMATK
21-07-2010, 10:41
I don't see anything about touching the model in the stone thrower rules. I can just hold the template high enough to see it over a building, then make an accurate shot at the things behind it?:eyebrows:

Chaos and Evil
21-07-2010, 10:44
So, logically, you can place the template four feet above the board, and never fire indirect again, because you'll always have LOS to the template.

Yeaaaah.

yabbadabba
21-07-2010, 10:57
So, logically, you can place the template four feet above the board, and never fire indirect again, because you'll always have LOS to the template.
Yeaaaah. Yeah but you don't get VPs for hit birds in flight with a stonethrower, not matter how cool the shot ;)

I hate discussions like this.

Omens
21-07-2010, 11:26
Is it just me or is avian pushing at the rules a bit too much recently?

Ka Faraq Gatri
21-07-2010, 11:42
This is a quite ridiculous deliberate misinterpretation of the rules. Avian, I'm quite sure that you don't actually believe that this is how it should be played, so I must ask: what is the point of this thread? Are you trolling, because that's how this comes across?

Ultimate Life Form
21-07-2010, 11:58
People tend to be whimsical when they don't get enough sleep. :angel:

Foxbat
21-07-2010, 12:24
Firing a stone thrower (p 114)
To fire a stone thrower, take the small round (3") template and place it anywhere completely within the war machine's line of sight, outside of the stone thrower's minimum range and within its maximum range.To properly interpret this rule, the operative word with respect to targeting is “place”.

In the BRB the word “place” means “put on the table”. We know this by consulting the “Deploy Armies Rule” BRB pg 2 where GW writes “...where on the table each player can place his models...” What Avian is proposing is “holding”, while this is the appropriate mechanic when one is looking to establish which models would be affected by the template weapon (refer BRB pg 9), it is not the correct mechanic when targeting. For targeting the proper mechanic is "place".

So looking back at the first two pictures, the one on the left would be a “direct” shot as the template can be placed fully within the ST’s line of sight. The one on the right is an example of an “indirect” shot as the entire template (i.e. all parts of the template) can’t be placed in the ST’s line of sight.

Atrahasis
21-07-2010, 12:35
The fact that models are placed on the table during deployment does not define the word "place" in all other contexts.

Thanatos_elNyx
21-07-2010, 12:40
As Foxbat states, technically the template would be placed on the table to see what it hits, but as that would be needlessly disruptive of our models we hold the template over the unit being fired at.

Avian
21-07-2010, 12:44
The picture on the left, accurate.
So, hilariously, if the Shaman was standing in front of and touching the building, it would be an indirect shot as well? Because if I placed the template there, some of it would be under the building.

Foxbat
21-07-2010, 13:05
So, hilariously, if the Shaman was standing in front of and touching the building, it would be an indirect shot as well? Because if I placed the template there, some of it would be under the building.You can find the answer to this quesiton on pg 127 of the BRB, which I am sure you already knew...

Foxbat
21-07-2010, 13:06
The fact that models are placed on the table during deployment does not define the word "place" in all other contexts.Ok, please provide references where the word "place" is used in the same context. And just as a follow-up, read the scatter rule on pg 9 and pay particular attention to the paragraph beginning with "If a Hit!..."

yabbadabba
21-07-2010, 13:10
Right, I am out of here as this is rapidly descending into the usual interpretative language rubbish.

Korraz
21-07-2010, 14:43
This is by far the best Warhammer Troll Thread ever.

EVER.

smithers
13-08-2010, 18:50
This thread was a joke right?

We've got other people now linking to it as a reference for TLoS. (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=271293)

I understood the rule to be that the center point would have to be in LoS not the whole template. The word "completely" in that sentence seems like it should just be removed.

DDogwood
13-08-2010, 19:03
According to the RAW, stone throwers and other template weapons can't hit anything, because the rules state that the template must be placed "over" the models on the table, but that the template must "touch" their bases in order to hit the models. Since the model itself prevents the template from touching the base, nothing gets hit. QED.

It's a good thing the rules tell us to avoid the use of common sense when playing the game!

goodz
13-08-2010, 21:32
lol if someone tried to use these rules i would advise them that I made a mistake in deployment, and replace all my models with bases

Avian
13-08-2010, 22:27
According to the RAW, stone throwers and other template weapons can't hit anything, because the rules state that the template must be placed "over" the models on the table, but that the template must "touch" their bases in order to hit the models.
It doesn't say that, it says:

"Normally, any model that is fully or even partially underneath the template is hit automatically..."

Cragspyder
13-08-2010, 22:30
Couldn't you simply hold the template high enough over the model in the picture on the left, so that the building was no longer in the way? In fact, by simply holding the template high enough over the model, any shot is an accurate shot!

I'm sorry that I was such a jerk in your previous thread (about the floating Night Goblin), Avian, but these threads designed towards nitpicking of the rules makes me very glad that I will never play you in a game of Warhammer.

Unless you are trying to prove some sort of point to Games Workshop that their rules are poorly written, in which case I will remind you that they really don't care as long as you keep buying models.

Anyways, between two reasonable people, the left is accurate and the right is inaccurate, since the model is in line of sight in the left, but not on the right. You can accuse me of playing Warhammer with made up rules and ask jokingly if I make all my models Strength 10 if you like.

Avian
13-08-2010, 22:41
Couldn't you simply hold the template high enough over the model in the picture on the left, so that the building was no longer in the way? In fact, by simply holding the template high enough over the model, any shot is an accurate shot!
That is sort of the problem with the stone thrower rules - it's very rare that you are going to be able to see the whole template even on a very reasonable shot at a very normal unit.

There are basically three solutions:
1) hold the template so high you can see it regardless
2) make the stone thrower very tall
3) ignore having to be within complete line of sight, which makes the line between direct and indirect fire very fuzzy.

For example, in the picture with the building, I'm sure some people would argue that if the template touched a model that was hidden out of sight behind the building, it would be an indirect shot, while others would say that this was a direct shot as well, since the model under the center of the template is in plain sight.

Avian
14-10-2010, 20:14
A little update: The issue has now been clarified in the most recent Rulebook FAQ update (v1.1) and it turns out that BOTH shots are treated as direct fire. Whodathunkit? :shifty:

(images reposted for YOUR enjoyment)

xalfej
14-10-2010, 20:25
/facepalm

~xalfej