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Whitesox
22-07-2010, 21:36
Well with 8th Edition now taken hold I'm looking to start a new race. I currently have sizeable VC/Orc n Gobbo armies which I've had since 6th. Time for something new I thinks :)

Well I'm torn between these two, I collected both in 4th Edition so I can vaguely remember how to play them :confused:

Looking through the two books it looks like they both have similar advantages and both have the disadvantage of being an elf i.e. a light breeze can kill 20. But I am honestly struggling to pick between them and considering in 4th ed I ended up collecting both. What swayed players to chose their particular faction?

Also how are people finding these two races in the new edition either playing with them or against?

willowdark
22-07-2010, 22:06
I'd say the Hydra is really the biggest difference between the two. Both do Dragons, both do re-rolling infantry, good cav, chariots, RBTs and cheap, nearly unlimited flyers.

But HE don't have anything that really compares to the Hydra.

DE also have better missile troops who put out more shots and have a better armour save. But Lother Seaguard are probably the best multi-purpose troops in the game right now, fighting in 4 ranks with spears and getting volley fire from bows.

DE are also cheaper, so HE v. DE, HE will always be out numbered. DE are cheap enough that you can really bring a little of everything you want, where I think you need to make more sacrifices with HE.

Both are competitive, while vulnerable for all the reasons you pointed out.

Paraelix
22-07-2010, 22:07
I like the imagery of the High Elves. Concepts are good for them too. But I'm not a huge fan of how the army plays out.

I love the Dark Elf history/character/visuals. Plus I have an affinity for evil armies. I also believe they have a better army list; cheap flyers, more skilled scouts, better ranged weapons, non-character monster, a cheap(er) core unit. An army without a cheapish unit always struggles for me, because I try and max out on the pricey stuff and am left with no army. 8ish pts for spearmen and 11ish for Repeater Crossbows is lovely :D

bluemage
22-07-2010, 22:39
Well high elves should be cheaper to start and have more plastic models, if these are important to you. They'll also have access to more of the magical lores, but on the downside the army will be far more commonly played.

Paraelix
22-07-2010, 22:47
True Bluemage... Virtually the entire army will be plastic by the end of the year... ;-;

Vandelan
22-07-2010, 23:20
Just look over the model range and decide from that. It's really the best way to decide what army to start to begin with. Well that and playstyle I guess.

xxRavenxx
22-07-2010, 23:49
I think DE really hold and advantage over HE over the points cost of their basic men.

The DE ones are really just way too cheap.

Ultimate Life Form
23-07-2010, 00:06
I'm going for HE because I like their clothing style better (except for the stupid helmets, I gotta do something about it), I like their faces better (DE always look like mad super villains that dropped into a tank full of acid which does not really fit my idea of superhuman beauty), I like their hairdo better and I like their army style better (actual elite troops; if I want to field hordes of overpowered monsters I'll stick with my Lizardmen). And, of course, because they're in the starter set. :D

DruchiiMagic
23-07-2010, 00:24
Druchii...I might be biased.

BobtheInquisitor
23-07-2010, 00:54
Buy the HE models because they're all in plastic (or will be soon), and because their character models have so much convertability. Then, if you decide you would rather play DE, just use counts as rules and claim your entire DE force is dressed like HEs because they're planning on sneaking into Ulthuan/starting another war with the Dwarfs.

enyoss
23-07-2010, 02:41
I had to make the same decision back in 4th edition and ended up going for the High Elves. My main reasons back then were:

1) Background. The High Elf background and the annals of the Phoenix Kings was, then and now, almost the most inspiring in the game (Nagash comes in at number 1 :)). It made me really empathize with my army, which helped enormously.

2) Models. I loved the 4th edition High Elf models, barring the shadow warriors that is. Apart from the odd gem, subsequent ranges haven't been so good though. If making the same decision again these days I think I'd probably go for Dark Elves due to the utterly dreadful HE core models (and some of the others too, like silverhelms).

3) Rules. In 7th/8th edition, both DE and HE have great army books. If anything though, I'd say the HE book is slightly better in this regard, as there are just about no useless units (silverhelms are as bad as it gets), whereas many people complain about executioners in the DE list and don't use them, which is a real shame because their models are awesome.

So, if you still have your 4th edition models I'd say go High Elves all the way! If you're having to re-buy all those core units, then I'd probably go with Dark Elves.

Middenmordheimer
23-07-2010, 02:55
so really its the choice of pure good or pure evil lol. I chose pure evil! DE really have some of the best models in warhammer, one of the greatest leaders, a whole heap of diverse looking models a great army book and their cheap as. But high elves are cool too and new models coming out soon

AUN'SHI
23-07-2010, 02:55
I think DE really hold and advantage over HE over the points cost of their basic men.

The DE ones are really just way too cheap.

I disagree here, HE have asf and get to re-roll attacks every round and fight in 4 ranks so Id say the HE cost is very much so correct.

DE are not cheap (except the hydra but every army has something crazy) DE are priced correct also for what they do for t3 5+ save and fight in 3 ranks as opposed to 4 and only get re-rolls in frst turn, and no asf.

Now back to the OP do you want to go more majestic hero like or dark and bad ass like?

In this addition the HE got a HUGE boost. And just to add the DE have a hydra undercosted to an extent and tough even though its iniative is only 2 so some spells can kill it in 1 go. But the HE have Teclis probably the best undercosted special character in the game.

Just one thing to mention if this sways your judgement the corsairs are one of the coolest looking unit in the game however, they are not usable. Just thought I throw that in there :angel:

Adjustquantity
23-07-2010, 03:01
Dark Elves got me into Fantasy because of manticores and hydras and repeater crossbows and Hatred and cool looking models. I especially liked the Cauldron of Blood because my wife liked it and offered to buy it for me as a gift!

VoodooJanus
23-07-2010, 03:09
I'd pick High Elves. They're a more challenging army to play, with a more concise and defined playstyle than Dark Elves, plus, there is nothing quite as satisfying as watching Swordmasters cut through units in a single turn. Also- look at some of the new plastics HE are going to get (in the Island of Blood contents thread.) They look amazing.

Now- my brother plays a Corsair/raider themed Dark Elves army, and it looks and plays marvelously. Just because one of your units isn't broken beyond belief doesn't mean it's without worth. Heck, I'd play that army on looks alone!

Essentially, it boils down to which you prefer:A variety of Heavy Infantry/Elite Units (HE) vs A smattering (less than HE) of elite units and cav with monsters (DE). Dark Elves also have the option of being shooty.

Paraelix
23-07-2010, 04:15
Then, if you decide you would rather play DE, just use counts as rules.

And when you're found dead in a locked room with no windows, we'll know why.

AlphariusOmegon20
23-07-2010, 05:21
both do re-rolling infantry

HE reroll EVERY turn, DE only reroll for the first one, unless they're Black Guard.

HE ftw.




3) whereas many people complain about executioners in the DE list and don't use them, which is a real shame because their models are awesome.



Actually, Executioners now have a use with the onset of 8th ed.


I disagree here, HE have asf and get to re-roll attacks every round and fight in 4 ranks

Only if less than 10 wide (horde rule). Otherwise, they then get 5 ranks

Alltaken
23-07-2010, 06:39
I'd say HE will have to tend more towards magical support than DE, since their evil cousins have better shooting capabilities and vaster numbers by cheap units. I'm tempted to say HE can bring out more CC damage, but that might be a little too tighed at magical buffs somehow

OH! and the new starter minis are AWESOME! next plastics might just get the same incredible scultps also.

Yeah so I'd say HE, I'm into magic and CC currently

SiNNiX
23-07-2010, 07:04
It's definitely a tough choice, but here's something to consider:

Alot of people are under the impression that HE are overpowered now, due to the new rules under ASF. Essentially, you have an entire army of ASF + Hatred models with minimum WS4. Not bad at all.

However...

With the new rules for models who get to attack back, HE are actually much weaker now. Before, in 7th, HE were good enough (usually) to use their ASF to their advantage, slaying their charging opponents before they had a chance to attack, thus winning combat because they couldn't be hard. But now, with models stepping up to replace slain allies no matter what, HE can kill as many models as they want... they're still going to get attacked back, and when that happens, they're going to get butchered seeing as how they have no armour and T3 across the board.

I've only been able to play one HE player using 8th Edition rules, and I was using my daemons. HOLY MOLY did I annihilate him because of the previously stated fact. Sure, he would strike first and reroll misses to hit, scoring anywhere from 5-8 kills on average, but then I would attack back with 2 rows of Bloodletters, killing 8 minimum!

Just something to think about.

I haven't had a chance to play DE yet, but I assume they're just as good, if not better than what they were before.

enyoss
23-07-2010, 07:45
Actually, Executioners now have a use with the onset of 8th ed.


I suspected that might be the case, although I didn't want to say as I haven't played any games in 8th yet.

Lord of Divine Slaughter
23-07-2010, 07:47
Take the middle ground and go with the Asrai instead. You'll get bloodthirsty psycho elves, monsters and claim you're on the good side :D

AUN'SHI
23-07-2010, 23:04
Now- my brother plays a Corsair/raider themed Dark Elves army, and it looks and plays marvelously. Just because one of your units isn't broken beyond belief doesn't mean it's without worth. Heck, I'd play that army on looks alone!

what exactly do you feel is "broken" on the DE excluding the hydra of course? Which imo every army has at least 1 thing defined as "broken"

The corsairs are not worth their points hands down. Im sure your brother army does work well but it would work that much better if he took warriors or archers instead. There is no argument that would make me think other wise. I have gone over and over on how the corsairs are effective (only cause they have amazing models) and really no go. The DE have a great core selection excluding the corsairs. I have never feilded them and probably never will unless I play for only fun. But in a competitive light corsairs hands down are not worth it.

Petey
23-07-2010, 23:40
I have both, I love both as models, I have more fun playing dark elves now since my high elves were a shooting list that no longer works, but hey I hear Elf cav/chariot lists are making a comeback

Vile Druchii
24-07-2010, 00:14
I think it's amusing how everyone keeps saying that High Elves re-roll every turn. They only do against units with equal or lower Initiative, and there's a lot of options for Initiative 6 troops in the Dark Elf list. A canny Dark Elf player can pretty much deny the re-rolls against a lot of things, and throw lots of shooting and spearmen at the high Initiative units.

On topic, I'm clearly on the side of the Dark Elves! I can see why some people like High Elves, but I find them quite dull, and I'm really not a fan of some of their models. (Those mini skirts the White Lions are wearing are SO last season!) But to each their own! :)

AUN'SHI
24-07-2010, 00:58
I think it's amusing how everyone keeps saying that High Elves re-roll every turn. They only do against units with equal or lower Initiative, and there's a lot of options for Initiative 6 troops in the Dark Elf list. A canny Dark Elf player can pretty much deny the re-rolls against a lot of things, and throw lots of shooting and spearmen at the high Initiative units.


It's cause they get to re-roll against the great majority of armies in the game. on the DE its only the witch elves, black guard, cold one knights, and cold one chariots. Not everyone plays DE. That being said they basically always get a re-roll;)

AlphariusOmegon20
24-07-2010, 01:11
It's cause they get to re-roll against the great majority of armies in the game. on the DE its only the witch elves, black guard, cold one knights, and cold one chariots. Not everyone plays DE. That being said they basically always get a re-roll;)

Even then, it's only the Charioteers and Cold One Knights that apply on the I6. Cold Ones still go after ALL HE, due to having I2.

The average HE horse (and chariot lions, btw) goes at I4, so the High Elves are still coming out better than DE.

vladmech
24-07-2010, 01:24
I vote Dark Elves, but that may have a slight bias of me just starting them when 8th edition hit ;)

SiNNiX
24-07-2010, 06:51
High Elves took my daughter... and ruined my crops!

Go with Dark Elves.

But read the Malice books first. :)

Lord of Divine Slaughter
24-07-2010, 07:42
The corsairs are not worth their points hands down.

They sure are :)

7 wide with the SSS and people are staring at 21+ S3 attacks coming right back at them. Fast moving, resistant to shooting, these guys will go through light infantry (hordes) like butter.

But then again, I'm a rather weird sort of player, fielding witch elves and executioners over black guard and CoKs

-

But I still say, go with the asrai. Asur are the prissy dandelioneaters of elfdom, druchii are the spoiled emo brats, while the asrai are the cool free spirited kids on the block - and they look better too :cool:

HeroFox
24-07-2010, 08:49
I really think you mean Druchii. Asrai = Wood Elves.

Wednesday Friday Addams
24-07-2010, 09:03
I really think you mean Druchii. Asrai = Wood Elves.

If you mean the above post I think he is using the terms correctly for all of the three elf races.

Astafas
24-07-2010, 09:10
Interesting...

I had the same question until I realised I wat to stickto my VC with so many people lamenting their drop in power.

My wife answered it for me. She liked the dark elf models because they were spiky. Also suggested that most of the HE looked like they were cross dressers... nothing wrong with that if its your style.

Seriously though... one army has bloody velociraptors they ride and scantily clad chicks who like knives... the other has dudes who are frightening because they never speak WTF?

RunepriestRidcully
24-07-2010, 09:41
I was thinking of starting an elves force because of the HE prince with sword and shield model, problem is their core is ugly, the proportions are all out of wack, their hands are as big as their heads! what are the wood elves and Dark elves ranges like?

Vile Druchii
24-07-2010, 11:28
It's cause they get to re-roll against the great majority of armies in the game. on the DE its only the witch elves, black guard, cold one knights, and cold one chariots. Not everyone plays DE. That being said they basically always get a re-roll;)

Again, only if they have equal or higher Initiative, and I for one never leave home without my trusty Shadow magic! ;)


Even then, it's only the Charioteers and Cold One Knights that apply on the I6. Cold Ones still go after ALL HE, due to having I2.

The average HE horse (and chariot lions, btw) goes at I4, so the High Elves are still coming out better than DE.

But you only need the charioteers or Knights to apply for Initiative 6 and the High Elves with Initiative 5 don't get the re-roll. They get to hit first anyway because they have ASF. And the Dark Elves themselves will strike before the High Elf steeds...which is huuuuge! We all know how the dice never seem to fail on the steeds! :D

SeaSwift
24-07-2010, 18:36
Oh great - another versus thread?

I collected High Elves for several reasons, the most interesting of which is simply because I find the terrain is easier:

For my board, I didn't want it to be set on someone else's land - I wanted the battle to be on MY land, my army to fight on MY board.

Dark Elves will fight on someone else's land pretty much all the time, and their own land isn't really all that cool or well detailed in the fluff (at least compared to High Elves).

Lord of Divine Slaughter
24-07-2010, 18:48
If you mean the above post I think he is using the terms correctly for all of the three elf races.

Quite right, I do know how to distinguish between elves. In short:

HE = Paragons of boredom
DE = Nasty degenerates suffering from a minority complex
WE = Really cool dudes that everyone wants to hang out with ;)

- but if I really must answer the question, then I'll go for the darkies :)

szlachcic
24-07-2010, 18:59
I personally like Dark Elves better due to their style of models and play, but both armies look to be good under the new rule-set, so I wouldn't really base it on how either preforms. If you must then I would say HEs have a more balanced approach in all aspects of the game and may have a few more choices than DEs when it comes to CC troops. DEs on the other hand have some really stand out units, cheap core, potentially devastating magic, and some nasty tricks. It is really just a matter of taste. Unlike others have said, I don't think it takes more or less skill to play either, just realize that 90% of your models are low toughness and medium to poor armor.

If I didn't play either army and was trying to decide which one to pick I would probably go with High Elves for the simple fact that they have way more plastic kits than our poor Druchii.

fivedollashake
24-07-2010, 19:16
I chose DE's. It was the first army I read anything about, and I love the models for Executioners and Black Guard. My army includes a block of both. Cold One Knights too...they can be some of the best Heavy Cav around.

All in all I like the bad guy side of things...that plus the models the background for them.

AUN'SHI
24-07-2010, 19:22
Again, only if they have equal or higher Initiative, and I for one never leave home without my trusty Shadow magic!

hmm true but still to many variables you need to cast the spell they don't dispel it. You get the right spells ect ect.... I usually take either shadow or metal with DE. The Dark magic is very much so lacking :(

In regards to the corsairs 7 wide with sss banner how many ranks? even if you take lets say 1 extra rant your looking at 140pts without the banner. The warriors you can take 10 wide letting them attack in 3 ranks ;) The main problem with the corsairs is they only have st3 no real damage output. I usually use my warriors (cheap :) ) as a mage defence not really for much else the corsairs basically are the same except they are to expensive. But hey we do have the hydra ;)

Another real probelm is the corsairs look soooo damn cool and if they were cheaper points they would probably sell way more than now. I think everyone would love to do a corsair raiding army if they were competitive. but alas they are not:cries:

Vile Druchii
25-07-2010, 00:56
hmm true but still to many variables you need to cast the spell they don't dispel it. You get the right spells ect ect.... I usually take either shadow or metal with DE. The Dark magic is very much so lacking

Well, I haven't used my Dark Elves yet this edition, but I'm looking forward to dusting them off. The -d3 Initiative spell is the signature spell in Shadow, so no problems there, and if they put effort into dispelling that, it only improves the likelihood of my Tzeentch spells going through, so it's really win/win on an offensive magic front. Strategically, it's been a case of picking and choosing my fights against High Elves, using hordes of marauders to do damage in combat whilst holding troublesome units up, all the while backing them up with Shadow magic to deny re-rolls, which has worked wonderfully so far! Of course, the High Elves never really needed the re-rolls, so they still get a lot of hits in, but every little helps! :)

GenerationTerrorist
25-07-2010, 03:00
I got bored very fast with Dark Elves in 7th Edition, and quickly sold them all to add further to my Asur army.

Though that may just be me!

shinankoku
25-07-2010, 14:15
I have an elf army made up of both dark and high elf models, painted to hang together. I use them as either, depending on my mood.

willowdark
25-07-2010, 18:46
A Nagarythe themed army could have regular cav and be HE, or CoKs and be DE. Get both Hydras and Eagles and you can change them out as much as you want and have a really cool themed army.

Remember, Nagarythe Elves under Aenerion were essencially both HE and DE, but it wasn't until the sundering stranded the DE on Naggaroth that they transformed into their current incarnation.

HE under Aenerion were just as militant, savage and blood thirsty as DE are today, and they were infested by the cults of pleasure. They just didn't have Hydras or Cold Ones or corsairs. So interchange those models out and you have two perfectly functioning armies at once, either pre-Sundering HE or post-Sundering DE.

Pskyrunner
25-07-2010, 18:59
If you want easier games take druchii, if you want more of a challenge take asur like one of the above posters mentioned

While having more flexebility with druchii army and not having to field the "best" troops in important games and still have very good chances to win, the asur will have to field their best of the best being able to stay competitive on tournies. Thus resulting in playing kinda the same list every time : /

Doesnt matter if you play a horde or elite army, that rule will apply to HE, otherwise you will get crushed in 8th. Still you can be very competitve with risks and some luck on rolling dices.

HE play style is alot more relying on combination attacks and thinking, while DE have the option to just push forward with some of their units without having to worry to much about never seeing the CC phase with them.

If you like monster armies take DE.
If you like magic i would take fluffwise HE.
If you like close combat you can take both.
If you like shooting lists take DE.
If you like one man shows (non special characters) take DE.
If you like special characters take HE.
If you like dragons you cant take both, while HE having better lore with them.

In case you just play for fluff that points mentioned above wont matter and its just a choice if your attitude is more evil or good : P

Lord of Divine Slaughter
25-07-2010, 22:26
Another real probelm is the corsairs look soooo damn cool and if they were cheaper points they would probably sell way more than now. I think everyone would love to do a corsair raiding army if they were competitive. but alas they are not:cries:

Well, winning is the 5 minutes with a pocket calculator after the game. The game itself is about shoving cool models around for a couple of hours. Why lessen the experience just to 'win'?

Showing up with corsairs will win you respect and admiration. People will say 'Wow! Cool models and army concept' instead of 'Oh,.. Dual hydra.. Flavour of the month brokenness. Yeah, I know a couple of guys who uses that list from the net...' ;)

mostlyharmless
26-07-2010, 02:47
Rather than listen to nonsense about which army has better rules and useful units and so on, concern yourself with two things: what do I want to paint, and what concept can I get behind? Answer these two questions, and you will have your decision. If you don't want to paint the models, you'll never get the army painted, and it will sit on a shelf never to be played. If you can't get behind the concept of the army, you won't have fun. I picked dark elves long ago because I loved the models and I loved the concept. I can't really see myself playing anything else with as much enjoyment. So, pick an army that you want to paint and a concept you can get behind, and run with it.

majorberzerker
26-07-2010, 08:05
Go with Dark Elves, and take down the High Elf scum.

brendel
26-07-2010, 15:58
High elves, i would got for, cheaper to collect, good list of troups, a good magic phase, and i just like them more, they were my first army so im fond of them alot,
If you want a darker HE army why not have an army that has been fighting the dark elves in the north for such a long time that they have been replacing amour and weapons from the dead enermys.