PDA

View Full Version : Grom and BSB



Peril
15-08-2010, 03:19
So, Grom has a special rule that makes his chariot work like a bsb (Niblit - the bsb - dies with the Chariot).

Since it doesn't say that I cannot, and Niblit does not count as a Big Boss, I can still take another Big Boss as the BSB right?

shakedown47
15-08-2010, 06:32
Yes in a tournament you certainly could, but in a friendly game you're already bringing the most famous Goblin warboss of all time and his personal standard bearer so there would really be no conceivable reason a second BSB would be present.

Shield of Freedom
15-08-2010, 06:46
An army can only have one battle standard bearer. Even if it's already wrapped up into the same model as your general.

Yrrdead
15-08-2010, 09:58
I agree with Shield here.

Grom doesn't have a special rule that "works" like a BSB. It states that Niblit is his BSB and confers all the usual benefits.

Harwammer
15-08-2010, 14:30
I was thinking this thread would be asking how to deal with the last stand rule when grom and his chariot fail a break test.

rtunian
15-08-2010, 15:08
i agree that you cannot take another bsb besides niblet. you can only ever have 1. yes, the army selection rules say that "one big boss may carry the battle standard" but you do not have that choice if you take grom, because you can only ever have 1 bsb, and you have it automatically in niblet if you take grom. similarly, gorbad ironclaw is not a big boss. but if you take him, you cannot take a big boss bsb, because he counts as your bsb and you only get 1.

spiderman: tell 'im, peter
peter griffin: uh... i guess everyone gets one?
spiderman: that's right.

edit:
i believe that niblet is not lost if you lose combat & break. the reason for this is that the rules for niblet say that he is lost if the chariot is killed, and that he may not be separately targetted or challenged. on the other hand, he could easily "drop" the banner if the chariot breaks & flees, or perhaps "fall off the back of the chariot as it suddenly turns around". similarly, what happens if/when gorbad's unit breaks?

alas, more missed opportunities for the greenskin faq :rolleyes:

Urgat
15-08-2010, 15:16
I was thinking this thread would be asking how to deal with the last stand rule when grom and his chariot fail a break test.

That one's interesting. I'm afraid by raw I wouldn't like the answer, though (well I wouldn't if I were using Grom).

JonnyTHM
15-08-2010, 16:14
Sorry, could someone actually direct me to a page reference that says the army can only have a single battle standard bearer?

I can only find the reference to what to do in the 'unusual' situation where you have 2 in the same army (along with a possible, non-exclusionary example of how it might occur) on page 107.

Or are we not looking for rules here?

Yrrdead
15-08-2010, 17:57
Sorry, could someone actually direct me to a page reference that says the army can only have a single battle standard bearer?

I can only find the reference to what to do in the 'unusual' situation where you have 2 in the same army (along with a possible, non-exclusionary example of how it might occur) on page 107.

Or are we not looking for rules here?

I'm assuming that most army books are written with a similar blurb. for a specific page it would be in the Hero section of most army books. To paraphrase it goes something like this.

One "hero choice" may carry the army's Battle Standard. Blurb about points cost. Blurb about item restrictions and taking a magic banner.


A better argument to be able to take two "BSB's" with one being Niblit would be to reference Gorbad. Gorbad's special rule about being the General and BSB specifically excludes taking a seperate BSB. There is no such mention under Niblit's rules. Though I still don't believe that this is allowed.

Peril
15-08-2010, 19:52
So nobody thinks you can do it, but nobody can provide a single rule or line in the rulebook as evidence to this end?

Korraz
15-08-2010, 20:14
Yes, this is called "Common Sense" and it is, despite its name, not very common.

Urgat
15-08-2010, 20:15
The rules in the BRB about BSB (p107) tells that you can have "a", so one, battle standard bearer; but, more importantly because I can see people arguing that "a" doesn't necessarily mean "the" in certain circumstances, the rules also talk about THE battle standard. So there's only one. The same wording is used in the armybook (say, OnG armybook, p51-51). One this or that may carry THE battle standard. "The" battle standard is pretty clear: there's one. If nibblit carries the battle standard, obviously nobody else can.

JonnyTHM
15-08-2010, 20:25
The rules in the BRB about BSB (p107) tells that you can have "a", so one, battle standard bearer; but, more importantly because I can see people arguing that "a" doesn't necessarily mean "the" in certain circumstances, the rules also talk about THE battle standard. So there's only one. The same wording is used in the armybook (say, OnG armybook, p51-51). One this or that may carry THE battle standard. "The" battle standard is pretty clear: there's one. If nibblit carries the battle standard, obviously nobody else can.

That would be a moderately convincing argument were there not rules for having multiple battle standards. The wording on page 107 makes it clear that they're not unique (yes with the caveat that it's unusual, but enough to negate the words you're choosing to emphasize). Yes, most army books make it clear there can be only one in the army, but the O&G one does not do so, at least not in so far as Nibblit is concerned.

To be clear: I don't think it's intended, but given the current rules you would be able to take nibblit and another battle standard bearer in this fashion.

Urgat
15-08-2010, 21:28
The "unusual" part comes from the fact that you can have allies. Much like in the dispell rules, they say that if there's a sorcerer on the dwarfs side, they don't get their dispell dice. Can dwarfs have sorcerers?

JonnyTHM
15-08-2010, 22:36
An example is not exclusionary.

Example
All people with green eyes have blond hair
Jim has blond hair

This does not imply that Jim has green eyes.

You're making a logically fallacious argument to suggest that a given example creates an if and only if.

Urgat
16-08-2010, 00:49
And you're assuming that since multiple BSB can be found on the same side, it means you can take more than one. My assumption has basis in rules (allies), yours has no basis at all.

JonnyTHM
16-08-2010, 01:01
No, I'm actually not assuming that, I'm suggesting that your interpretation of that page is too far, especially given that context.

I don't think that the rule says you're allowed, I believe it implies that it can occur, and since the rules within the o&g book would allow it, that (without a needed errata) taking a BSB with grom would be legal.

If you'd prefer I'll phrase my objection thus: saying that it refers to 'the battle standard' would exclude multiple battle standard bearers is negated that there could be an implicit 'carried by the battle standard bearer' within that use. I'm not saying that there is, but your interpretation does not bear out as exclusive or informative.

Urgat
16-08-2010, 01:09
Alright, then go ahead and try it, but don't be surprised if your opponents don't take your reading of the rule too kindly. Let's be honest anyway, you know perfectly well that the rules just fail to be clear (as usual in this particular armybook), and your posts make me think you're sensible enough to assume so. I suspect you're arguing the matter just for the heck of it ;)

JonnyTHM
16-08-2010, 02:29
As many others do, I argue things like this in the rules forum. I'd smack my friend upside the head if he tried this with the grom army he's building.

solkan
16-08-2010, 02:33
If you have two Battle Standard Bearers in your army, how to do plan on determining which one is "the Battle Standard Bearer" for the fifth paragraph of the Battle Standard Bearer rules?

That paragraph refers to "the Battle Standard Bearer", and I think that would compel an Orc&Goblin player to choose one or the other BSB for the duration of the game.

Peril
16-08-2010, 17:56
I do appreciate the discussion - I am not really trying to be tricky or exploit a loophole (the Grom thing is just an intellectual enterprse at this point). Normally an army can only have one BSB because in the army books the BSB entry says "one <hero> can carry the battle standard..."

Are there ahy other examples of this? Are there other special characters (other than Gorbad) that count as the BSB?

Yrrdead
16-08-2010, 19:54
Lizardmen - Mazdamundi, specifies another Battle Standard may not be taken.
Empire - Ludwig Schwarzhelm, states that this is the army's Battle Standard.