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warmong3r
19-08-2010, 13:13
Okay, so i started playing warhammer fantasy in the last 2 years of 7th edition. I have a dwarf army, not too big, but that is because i really wanted tomb kings. So, i bought a battalion and started assembling and painting it, and im still not done :o, but then 8th edition arrived. I hadn't played a single game with my tomb kings and i knew nothing about them. Whether they were magic heavy like i had planned, or had magic but just weren't that focused on it. But I was excited. I also wondered whether i just wasted my money on tomb kings.

So, here is where the discussion part is. I bought the battalion because i wanted an army that focused on magic a lot. Now, is it still possible to have a magic heavy TK army in 8th edition?

Berry
19-08-2010, 13:23
It is still possible, however the magic of the TK's isn't on the same scale as the magic of base lores. But as TK magic works seperate from the winds of magic you could jam a wizard's hat and a couple of bound spells into a TK list to make it completely impossible to dispel everything for the opponant.

TK took a hit in 8th edition, so we TK players are mostly waiting for a new army book, but in the time until that happens we'll have to make due with what we have.

Enigmatik1
19-08-2010, 13:48
By design, a Tomb King army is magic heavy. Even a magic light Tomb King list (if there is such a thing) has a fair amount of magic available to it. I'm inclined to ask what exactly do you mean by magic heavy?

Do you mean lots of characters capable of wielding magic? If so, then this is a definite yes for the Kings. Most of our magic is aimed at augmentation, with only one magic missile available (and its rarely used). Only the Icon Bearer can't use magic out of our characters and if you just need all your characters doing something in the phase, you can give him a bound item.

Do you mean magic capable of inflicting large amount of casualties? Tenuously, no. TK magic in and of itself is not overt and isn't designed to do lots of damage. The Casket of Souls can be nasty against low LD after you've disabled their security blankets, otherwise see above. It should be noted that taking the Wizarding Hat in your army can invalidate this with lucky lore/spell rolls. When that happens, we have arguably the nastiest magic phase in the game from a quality and quantity standpoint.

warmong3r
19-08-2010, 13:54
Well for a 2k build, and trust me this is probably a year or 2 away, i'm thinking 2 liche highs, both using tk magic, and then a liche priest with wizard hat hopefully getting lore of death. Oh and how do you choose which lore it is? D6 doesn't cover the other 2 lores.

Enigmatik1
19-08-2010, 14:19
Well for a 2k build, and trust me this is probably a year or 2 away, i'm thinking 2 liche highs, both using tk magic, and then a liche priest with wizard hat hopefully getting lore of death. Oh and how do you choose which lore it is? D6 doesn't cover the other 2 lores.

I wouldn't run that many Liche Priests in 2K list. By itself, our magic isn't potent enough to win games as it stands now. And Liche Priests are very expensive for what they bring to the table. The most I'd ever take in a list up to 3K is 2, but that's a matter of personal opinion. The more Liche Priests in your list, the more defensive your list is generally. I have a more aggressive playstyle.

Kings and Princes are what give your units destructive power, while still maintaining a magic phase presence. There's nothing inherently wrong with fielding more Priests if that suits your playstyle, I just don't think it's wise to skimp on Kings and Princes in a list that generally struggles to do damage.

As for the Dunce Cap, I roll D8s for the Lore. Spells are a bit trickier depending on how many spells are in the Lore. Obviously D6 for six spell lores. D8, with 7 and 8 being the signature spell for lores that have them.

Chris_
21-08-2010, 18:02
I like the fluff and several of the models for TK (especially Ushabti...) very much, that is why I play them.

Right now in 8th at like 2250p I run 1 Tomb King, 1 Liche Highe Priest, 1 Tomb Prince and 1 Liche Priest and maybe a Icon Bearer, the jury is still out on that one. This plus the Banner of the undying legion and ruby ring of ruin results in a phase where my opponent has to pick what he wants to dispel because some stuff will go through. So I would say I run a pretty magic heavy list. The 2-2 roll on Winds of Magic rocks, 2 dices each for my bound spells and only 2 dispel dice for my opponent.

Last game I played my Bone Giant failed a charge at a Hydra (DE) and then got charged by the very same his next turn. It actually managed to survive and I healed it right back up on my turn, later it killed the hydra (with some support from Chariots). It even managed to kill off a dark elf lord and 5 cold one knights all thanks to the healing powers of our incantations (and me rolling +3 wounds all the time :P )


Wizard's Hat: You roll a D8 for the lore and then 2d6 for the spells. Then you may change one of the spells for the signature spell of the lore you rolled, if you want to.

warmong3r
21-08-2010, 18:41
Thanks chris, that made a lot more sense to me probably because im not very smart. :p I like that character build for your army, and i forgot that tomb princes and kings also have spells! :o I hear a lot of talk about how icon bearers are useless, and i don't see how (even though i've never played). They're a bsb and they have some good magic banners right? Only about 120 points max when you add on the banners and such. Could someone explain why they're so bad, or why they are good?

Chris_
21-08-2010, 19:18
Well, usually you don't want to have your BSB dying all the time. That, however, is a thing the Icon Bearer is very good at... Normally in all armies the BSB is an upgrade/option for a hero lvl charcter, the Icon Bearer is basically a Tomb Guard Champion with +1W and +1WS and the ability to take banner or magic items for protection. If you take banner, he is VERY easy to kill as he only gets a 6+ AS for the light armour then so I would run him with some kinda protection.
Compared to other armies BSB he is not that good. But if you can give him adequate protection, TG unit with another Tomb King/Prince in and you've got yourself a nice CC unit.

warmong3r
21-08-2010, 19:22
So he's really good at dying hugh? Kind of ironic seeing as he's undead. But i know what you're saying. ;)

Chris_
21-08-2010, 19:29
Hehe :P

Anyway, our Tomb Princes and Liche Priests are also very important since we really do need the upper hand in the magic phase to have a shot at winning.

warmong3r
21-08-2010, 19:56
Yeah.

Oh and Enigmatik, I think i would play an aggressive game as well. So, what do you think about having 2 princes and a king for 2000 points? If i stick those in some CC units i could have 30 or so attacks each round from one unit. Even more if i used spears.

That reminds me, that discussion going on now about spears and shields vs HW and shields, what do you think is better for Skeleton warriors?

Chiron
21-08-2010, 22:32
At the moment I cannot see a way of making TK a viable army in 8th edition, I've been playing them for several years.

I'm waiting on the release of the new book, if it ever turns up

warmong3r
22-08-2010, 04:16
Well then if that's the case, lets hope that the new book comes out soon.

I have a rules question if any of you could answer it. How does my opponent generate dispel dice, because TK spells are bound, and there are no power dice.

gdsora
22-08-2010, 05:59
Well then if that's the case, lets hope that the new book comes out soon.

I have a rules question if any of you could answer it. How does my opponent generate dispel dice, because TK spells are bound, and there are no power dice.

You still roll for winds of magic as normal.

You may not have to use the dice, but you still roll anyways

For note
You would use those power dice for both
Bound spells, and the Wizard hat

Enigmatik1
22-08-2010, 09:05
Yeah.

Oh and Enigmatik, I think i would play an aggressive game as well. So, what do you think about having 2 princes and a king for 2000 points? If i stick those in some CC units i could have 30 or so attacks each round from one unit. Even more if i used spears.

That reminds me, that discussion going on now about spears and shields vs HW and shields, what do you think is better for Skeleton warriors?

Aggressive lists are harder to make work since we don't really have any capable, aggressive units except for the constructs (which are generally soft). TG are an in-betweener unit with no real focus, but I love mine and always field them. Besides, Killing Blow is the bane of heavily armored units, which we otherwise struggle with.

I would personally never have more than 2 Priests in a list. Either 2 LPs or HLP/LP and then a TK and a TP. The IB only gets used when I field the Wizarding Hat on my King to protect from him going Stupid. I always fail Stupidity checks on the first roll, so that re-roll is invaluable.

I like to keep skeleton units as big and as cheap as possible. Which means 20-30 with bows. Skeletons have terrible staying power in today's environment and need a lot of magical babysitting to keep on the table if they are allowed to get into close combat. If you're going to try to use them in a combat capacity, go with HW/S and forget the spears. I don't generally think they're worth the investment.

warmong3r
23-08-2010, 02:29
You still roll for winds of magic as normal.

You may not have to use the dice, but you still roll anyways

For note
You would use those power dice for both
Bound spells, and the Wizard hat

I didn't believe this was true, sorry, and i found the answer on the errata from Games workshop.

Page 34-35 – Using Nehekharan Incantantions
Change the first paragraph to “Liche Priests and Liche High
Priests are treated as Wizards, with a Wizard Level of 1 and 3
respectively. However they don’t have the ability of channeling
power dice in their own Magic phase. They channel dispel dice
as normal in the enemy Magic phase.

Change the fourth & fight paragraphs to “The Incantation
chosen is automatically cast, without using any power dice from
the pool. The casting result for the opponent to dispel is
determined by rolling 2D6 in the case of a Priest’s Incantation,
and 3D6 in the case of a High Priest. Note that these are not
power dice, and are not affected by things that affect power
dice. Also, these totals cannot be modified (either up or down),
except for the Staff of Mastery (see page 39).”

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1310261a_FAQ_TombKings_2010_v11.pdf

So if it's a normal priest they use 2D6 for dispelling, and if it's a liche high then they use 3D6. I'm posting this so you know how to use it the right way in future games.

jamano
23-08-2010, 02:34
He's saying you use power dice to cast bound items like enkhil's canopi or banner of the undying legion. So you still roll for winds of magic to see how many dispel dice the opponent has, and how many you can spend on bound items or the wizard hat.

Chiron
23-08-2010, 02:42
You also need to roll for winds of magic to see how many dispel dice the enemy get, its only polite

warmong3r
23-08-2010, 04:15
Sorry for being rude. I should probably listen to the veterans here. :)

To be clear, you would roll for winds of magic, finding out my opponents dispell pool, and then i would only use the power dice for bound items like banners and the hat, but i can cast my incantations for free using either 2D6 or 3D6?

Marshal Augustine
23-08-2010, 05:12
or 1D6 if cast by King or prince

smithers
23-08-2010, 05:24
Don't forget that you can also use your power dice to dispel RIP spells.

warmong3r
23-08-2010, 15:31
Cool. Thanks everyone. And i just finished painting all the archers from the battalion. On to the chariots.

gdsora
23-08-2010, 15:46
As i already stated, and how everyone else stated.

You roll winds of magic, for Power dice for your side, and dispel dice for your enemy.

You only use those power dice for bound items, or having the wizard hat.

You still cast Incantations like they have always been cast.

Sorry if i was unclear the first time Warmong3r

warmong3r
23-08-2010, 16:04
It's not your fault i'm just a noob tomb kings player :p