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Heimagoblin
19-08-2010, 21:56
First, let me start by saying that this is not just a boast, as the army I am using requires very little skill to win with. Normally, this would be easily remedied by toning down the list but it is here that the problem lies. The models i'm using are the ones I love the look of and the models that enspire me to cheer on like a 5 year old when the do well and grown and make the noise of the creatures dying when they bite the dust. Just so you know the army is lizardmen.

Anyway, nobody so far has been able to give me a run for my money, from a cheesy deamon list with 12 flamers, 2 units of fleshounds and a lord of change, to a tomb kings list played by a guy doing a docterate at oxford university for quantem psychics. Let me make this clear the guy completley outplayed me but he just couldn't actuall kill any of my units and his units died to all of mine.

I have deliberatly chosen not to post the list I am using as I don't want this to turn into a tactics discussion (hence for forum choice) but it includes Bilbo the slann and stegadons aswell as salamanders.

So, I have no idea what to do. I don't want to ditch the army altogether because I enjoy their fluff, playstyle, and painting them, a combination I have not yet experienced in warhammer. So far its Won24 Drawn 1(tomb king guy L 0 but I think I would have enjoyed 25 losses more. Thoughts, solutions?

Drakcore Bloodtear
19-08-2010, 22:00
Try helping the other players improve their lists and armys, especially with the changes to 8th.
Tk are soon to get a new army book, so they'll get a boost no doubt.

And how does quantum psychics help your playing style? :p

Peril
19-08-2010, 22:49
Lizards are tough in 8th, but should be beatable. Are you playing with scenarios? Terrain? Proper points values?

If you guys are a "fun" type group, you should be able to sit down and talk with them and figure out what the pain points are. Its hard to give more advice than that without more specifics (your list, their list, their tactics/mistakes, etc).

cyberspite
19-08-2010, 22:52
And how does quantum psychics help your playing style? :p

:wtf: By bending the laws of time of course....At least that's how it works in Quantum Leap ;)

Lord of Divine Slaughter
19-08-2010, 22:54
And how does quantum psychics help your playing style? :p

You shouldn't underestimate the power of manipulating the space/time continuum in a strategy game, nor the significance of understanding the mechanics of the Fry-hole. Nasty business I tell you ;)

Heimagoblin
19-08-2010, 22:58
Try helping the other players improve their lists and armys, especially with the changes to 8th.
Tk are soon to get a new army book, so they'll get a boost no doubt.

And how does quantum psychics help your playing style? :p

Just showing how clever he is. Anyway, these guys are good players, some better than me, and each certainly no more about there army than I do.


Lizards are tough in 8th, but should be beatable. Are you playing with scenarios? Terrain? Proper points values?

If you guys are a "fun" type group, you should be able to sit down and talk with them and figure out what the pain points are. Its hard to give more advice than that without more specifics (your list, their list, their tactics/mistakes, etc).

We're a mix, some competative, some fluffy, but all good players in one way or another. However, we are doing everything by the book including scenerio's and are playing 2500 point lists. As for my list, the underlying problem is that 3 units comprising 1400 points of the army are stubborn, ld9, coldblooded and have a re-roll from the BSB. The rest are sarus blocks backed by scar veteran's, a few ranked skinks, and 2 salamanders.

As for their mistakes, i'm afraid there were woefully few mistakes they made. Thats the whole problem. Already in 4+ games against better opponents I have won by a margin larger than the points we started with.

Azhrar
19-08-2010, 22:59
Why not post your list ? Also how many points are yi normally playing?

Without knowing your or your opponents list we can't really comment further.

mortiferum
19-08-2010, 23:02
Don't change the list! - I'm a firm believer that any list is beatable - your opponents learn more about their armies with the loses then with a win and (the good players) will take that experience and try out potential new ideas / solutions to counter the weakness in their own lists.

If a player beats me with a well structured and played list - I say well done on them. I certainly wouldn't want them to purposefully write sub optimal lists on my account - if I play a game I want my opponents to try their hardest - not play with (metaphorically - one arm tied behind there back). If I play a game of chess / squash - I'd prefer my opponent not to handicap themselves (same applies with wargaming), giving away their queen / missing shots on purpose. Against newbie's - sure take it easy on them / tutor them through the play (if asked / wanted) but against your 'peers' and opponents of equal skill don't - they might even take offence at your 'charity'.

I've lost to Lizardmen twice now and I am starting to see some garing weakness (at least to me) in my own list. I see the strengths and I see some weakness's that are exploitable in my opponents list. I have some ideas to work on and am happy to try them out against Lizardmen. Sure some of my ideas might be misinformed but thats fine - I'll just go back to the drawing board and try again.

I've seen your list, I've played your list, I've lost against your list but I still haven't given up yet - I firmly believe that I can beat the list (whilst still maintaining an 'all comers' list) - Give me a chance, its only my fourth game - I enjoy the challenge.

If at first you don't suceed, try again. :-) (where are the smilies?)

Haravikk
19-08-2010, 23:03
Maybe try mixing up your list a bit? Last thing you want to do is encourage suicide mages with purple sun as a counter to your saurus/temple-guard :)

Heimagoblin
19-08-2010, 23:11
I know I said I wouldn't but so many have asked that its going to disrupt the thread more if I don't, so, here goes.

Slann
Skink priest with dispel scroll on EOTG
Ancient Stegadon
20 templeguard
10 skinks
24 Sarus, spears, command
10 skinks
24 Sarus, command
10 skinks
Salamander
Salamander
Scar Veteran

There you are. This is the nastiest list i've yet had to face. Can you see a way he could have won?

28 bloodletters with herald
25 Plaugebearers with herald
lord of change, twin heads
6 fleshounds
6 fleshhouns
6 flamers
6 flamers
5 furies

Both lists are much nastier than they look lol.

edit; actually, this list was probably worse.

40 Grave Guard
Vampire BSB with draekonhof (u can guess where!)
Vlad
Black Coach
Black Knights
35 Skeletons
20 ghouls
20 ghouls
Vampire with helm of command
Isobella (I think)
Unit of wraiths

Bloody Nunchucks
19-08-2010, 23:15
well, if you always win then your one of the better players in your playgroup and the other ones are playing armies like the bretts, i would reccomend trying new things and not taking the same list every time, this way you should lose a few games and have fun finding out new tactics and comboes

Heimagoblin
19-08-2010, 23:18
LOl, thats what has kept me going, but I can only paint so fast!

Azhrar
19-08-2010, 23:25
Hmm nothing wrong with your list, doesn't seem that cheesy to me. I find The englne to be too expensive in 8th. Especially with how template weapons hit both rider and mount resulting in a very dead priest and a useless engine.i would field some kroxigors instead i Think.

Lord Dan
19-08-2010, 23:32
First of all I chuckle almost every time I see your sign on name. I tip my hat to you and your clever word play, sir.

Other than the dual-flamer dual-fleshounds the daemon list really isn't that bad. The VC list isn't too tough either, sans Vlad and the GG deathstar. It's like both opponents have some of the elements of a OTT list but didn't tie the rest of the army in with it (certainly not a bad thing, just...odd). Anyway enough about them.

Your list is actually really solid. I was worried in your initial post that the reason you didn't want to post it was because it would prove to be absurdly overpowered, however you have lots of saurus blocks, a grand total of 30 skinks, and only 2 stegs in a 2500 point list. Really good.

I think the only way to find a solution for you is if you write up some battle reports. Let's say for the next 3 games have someone write down the basic details of each turn and then report them back on here. Make sure it's not a quick paragraph describing the highlights of the game, but more of a turn-based breakdown of some of the key moves made. In this way we can see not only how you're performing with your army, but some patterns in how your opponents are responding to your play style.

Hope this helps.

Urgat
19-08-2010, 23:37
Well... Try with zero magic items, see if it helps. Or switch armies with your opponents for a few games, see if it changes the way they (and you) play. But I have a hard time taking your problem seriously, to be honest :p

Heimagoblin
19-08-2010, 23:43
I've got a rematch against my vc opponents tommorrow so I will post a battle report for that. Wish me bad luck!

gdsora
19-08-2010, 23:43
First, let me start by saying that this is not just a boast, as the army I am using requires very little skill to win with. Normally, this would be easily remedied by toning down the list but it is here that the problem lies. The models i'm using are the ones I love the look of and the models that enspire me to cheer on like a 5 year old when the do well and grown and make the noise of the creatures dying when they bite the dust. Just so you know the army is lizardmen.

Anyway, nobody so far has been able to give me a run for my money, from a cheesy deamon list with 12 flamers, 2 units of fleshounds and a lord of change, to a tomb kings list played by a guy doing a docterate at oxford university for quantem psychics. Let me make this clear the guy completley outplayed me but he just couldn't actuall kill any of my units and his units died to all of mine.

I have deliberatly chosen not to post the list I am using as I don't want this to turn into a tactics discussion (hence for forum choice) but it includes Bilbo the slann and stegadons aswell as salamanders.

So, I have no idea what to do. I don't want to ditch the army altogether because I enjoy their fluff, playstyle, and painting them, a combination I have not yet experienced in warhammer. So far its Won24 Drawn 1(tomb king guy L 0 but I think I would have enjoyed 25 losses more. Thoughts, solutions?


When you mention TK, let me tell you.

One of my closest friends plays the almost exact same list as you do, and i play TK.

The exact same thing happens, no matter how much i out play him, lizard units wreck TK in every form of combat.

Its not a fault of your list, but just the weakness of TK

SiNNiX
19-08-2010, 23:57
If you really want a loss, fly to Texas and play my dwarfs. :)

On a serious note, I've never really been disappointed with winning all the time, but then again I don't play casually anymore; strictly tournaments. Have you tried going to local tournaments and big city tournaments? You usually find much higher caliber players there with many many years experience playing the best of the best. These guys should be able to give you a loss and make you feel more "human" and better about your army. Another option is to start another army that isn't so up to par in 8th, say WOC or OK. That's what I plan on doing, which is why I've started to collect WOC.

Nothing wrong with an unbeatable army! :) Think of it this way: every time someone loses to you, they learn something they need to change about their army, making them better players.

GhostfaceKillah
20-08-2010, 00:04
First of all in my experience being in a place considered a place of high education has nothing to do with playing ability.:p

I am yet to use the army but my prediction lizardmen with a slann are going to be the power army of 8th edition.

I certainly have jumped on the bandwagon.:D

My main reason for this is that slann completely disregard what is meant to be the downside to magic.

Also tricks to take out hardcore ranked up units such as use of rough terrain, march blocking or misdirection and flanking do not work because of the rule changes.

The game is now about taking the hardest units you can to slug it out and blasting him with magic.

Gropius
20-08-2010, 01:09
Maybe you and your opponent could try switching your armies and try to beat your own list. Perhaps it is not the list but instead you are just a better player than the others in your group.

night2501
20-08-2010, 01:31
hey the OP has been quite clear, he is being outplayed and yet the opponent can not win.

What can I say, saurus are really strong in CC, being stubborn with the general leadership and coldblooded, make it impossible to make them flee, specially now that auto-flee does not exist.

I can imagine most direct clash between his army and yours will end in your favor (saurus have a good S T number of A and save), specially with units like skeletons, even while flanking you are at dis vantage there.

also the slann is quite powerful at magic and being immune to magic dysfunction right?

basically you have a very solid core, that I think only few armies could actually break.

Well I played WE a lot so my approach to that would be tot take apart the weak link and play a denial game, to actually kill a unit of saurus the opponent actually need to break them apart so they can not use the ld9 for a start, with this in mind i would think a TK army that focus a bit more on mobility shooting might do quite well, also if there is a bit more of terrain on the table, TK can be quite mobile leaving a few sacrificial units as bait or as a damage soak... btw this still would not guarantee a victory, but at least make the game a bit more even.

well just my 2 cents

stashman
20-08-2010, 01:50
I have played TK twice at 4000 and 7300 with my orcs and I can't find anything solid or good in a TK army. We thougth TK should be better in the magic phase, but with WS2, S3 and I2 the charges is a joke.

Have your lizardmen battled an Empire army with hellblasters, rockets and cannons???

Have you faced Warriors of Chaos?

O&G can probably give the lizardmen a match with many units and lots of cheap bosses (orc/goblin on flying carpet charging skink priest on stegadon and challenge him to death).

R Man
20-08-2010, 02:53
The list looks solid, but does not in anyway look overpowered. In fact it looks well balanced, though it is magic heavy. Also, TK are quite impotent, so its not surprising that they struggle to beat you.

As for armies, anything with good long ranged firepower should make a challenge for you and this includes Empire and Dwarves and even Orcs if they build right. In addition an army like Brets can be trouble with Damsels giving Magic resistance and the most powerful stone thrower in the game.

Tactically their isn't much to exploit in your list, but your opponents should try to flank with heavy cavalry, especially with Black Knights. Their toughness and armour should keep even Saurus from causing too much damage. So try to get them to use heavy hitters in the flank. Perhaps we need some examples. You might just be playing a rule wrong or something or perhaps you are a better player than you give yourself credit for. So give us some examples. of how this all went down because its hard to know what players are doing wrong without a context.

txamil
20-08-2010, 03:48
..........

GhostfaceKillah
20-08-2010, 04:33
Vampire counts are garbage in 8th. Just my opinion.

My lizardmen take the item of passing off a miscast to a enemy wizard on a 2+. Along with the item of making him re-roll the result if I want.

I also make a enemy wizard discard any 6's to cast, meaning I have no silly purple sun to worry about.

My list is similar to yours but 2,000 so smaller saurus units. But I have two normal steggs for a total of three steggs.

I recommend lore of light on the slann to give your army extra initiative.

The idea is to move up in a unstopable wedge crushing everything before me. I have:

500pt slann with lots of gizmos.
EOTG

16 man saurus with slann in.
15 man saurus.
15 man saurus.
2 nilla steggs.
5 man camo skinks for killing war machines.

Using proxys for the saurus at the moment.

And stuff.

Gorak
20-08-2010, 05:43
how are your other saurus stubbron? your gen doesn't pass on stibbron to units wiht inspiring precence, saurus are good but there are far better combat tropps out there that have a Higher I, THe temple guard bunkers is a problem but hey! get your oppents to grind em down with their best killers and have them dispell correctly ala no T for the templegaurd or regrowing them, **** EOTG is a waste o points now, anyplayer worth his/her salt with any army should be able to take the skink down in one turn....

Aluinn
20-08-2010, 06:21
I know I said I wouldn't but so many have asked that its going to disrupt the thread more if I don't, so, here goes.

Slann
Skink priest with dispel scroll on EOTG
Ancient Stegadon
20 templeguard
10 skinks
24 Sarus, spears, command
10 skinks
24 Sarus, command
10 skinks
Salamander
Salamander
Scar Veteran

There you are. This is the nastiest list i've yet had to face. Can you see a way he could have won?

28 bloodletters with herald
25 Plaugebearers with herald
lord of change, twin heads
6 fleshounds
6 fleshhouns
6 flamers
6 flamers
5 furies

Both lists are much nastier than they look lol.

edit; actually, this list was probably worse.

40 Grave Guard
Vampire BSB with draekonhof (u can guess where!)
Vlad
Black Coach
Black Knights
35 Skeletons
20 ghouls
20 ghouls
Vampire with helm of command
Isobella (I think)
Unit of wraiths

I can say a few things about these opponents' lists that I think make them pretty sub-par, and certainly not up to snuff when pulling out all the stops against a seemingly unbeatable enemy:

Daemons: This army has excellent, quite possibly broken special characters, none of which are being put to use here. Furthermore, a unit of 6 hounds is too small to do much in 8th (they'd be much more useful combined, IMO), Furies are fairly useless against your army, and Plaguebearers are far worse for their points than either Daemonettes or Bloodletters.

Vampire Counts

- VC special characters, unlike Daemonic ones, are rather overcosted for what they do, in general; Mannfred in either incarnation is the only one I've ever found to be worthwhile, and for some reason he has been avoided here.

- The Drakenhof Banner no longer works against crumbling (which has become Unstable, rendering Regeneration and ward saves unusable) and isn't worth the points in other conditions given how easily Regen is negated in 8th--I don't believe VC are greatly helped by a battle standard, but if one is taken it probably ought to be on a Wight, and not upgraded to an expensive magic banner unless one really felt the need to combine, say, +1 to hit and Hatred on Grave Guard (massive overkill IMO).

- Black Knights are considered pretty sub-par. I use them and like them, but I'd agree with the consensus that they aren't a powergaming choice.

- Ghouls are good but units of 20 are nowhere near big enough; they're not going to be faring well against equal, much less greater, numbers of Saurus. One Horde of 40 would be a better configuration in every way I can imagine except in the case of garrisoning a watchtower.

Now I don't mean to be harsh on these players, but I wouldn't call these especially hardcore lists, whereas your own happens to be rather strong in spite of not being selected for that reason. I firmly believe that for a VC player to compete with LM magic they're going to need Master of the Black Arts on a level 4 Vampire Lord, and a Black Periapt doesn't hurt (and is rather cheap, so I can see very little excuse for not having one). Daemons I am even less an expert on, but Skulltaker on a Juggernaut, the Masque, and Fateweaver are generally regarded as pretty dang good.

Aside from army construction, there is also the matter of becoming accustomed to 8th Ed. changes. With 25 games under your belt you have quite a bit of experience there, and if these players had significantly less, that could go a ways toward explaining the problems.

Kampfpanzer
20-08-2010, 06:38
I've said it before in previous threads, your stubborn Ld9 rerolls aren't going to help when I look at you down the barrel of a cannon.

Play some Empire or Dwarves. Black powder goes a long way these days.

freddieyu
20-08-2010, 06:45
Maybe you and your opponent could try switching your armies and try to beat your own list. Perhaps it is not the list but instead you are just a better player than the others in your group.

This is a great idea!! We did this in a recent spearhead tourney in 40K..you should have seen the look of the player who fielded a warhound titan when he learned in scenario 2 that he had to swap armies!!!

Trains_Get_Robbed
20-08-2010, 06:46
Want to play my H.E? Book of Hoeth A.M on your flank casting purple sun or awesome shadoe spells, tree trunks in the eotg, eagles used as bait/flee and redirect, 2 units of spears along with W.l and P.G tag team to annhalilate the saurus, D.Ps to wipeout sallies and a small unit of archers along with whatever else that is done fighting andis able to clean up your skinks.

I could go as others could, but your list isn't really that hard, you just haven't played the top tier armies of 8th ed. yet. Even noobs can win with a gunline dwarf or empire army, and decently tailored lists with DE, demons, HE, WOC, Bretts and V.C -play some of these SPECIFICLY TAILORED to your list and you will lose. However, it would be a waste of time to play a game that either you or your opponent crushes the other in, but that's just me.

Gorbad Ironclaw
20-08-2010, 06:49
hey the OP has been quite clear, he is being outplayed and yet the opponent can not win.


By TK, yes. Being outplayed means nothing if after all the enemies clever manoeuvring his perfectly executed charge still gets him slaughtered because his troops are no match for anything else. They don't really have anything in the army that will effectively deal with something like Saurus warriors, and combined with a Slann and marching Salamanders to incinerate squishy TK troops they face a huge uphill struggle to even hurt the Lizards, let alone win the game.
And sadly that's pretty much where TK is at the moment.

But swapping armies for a few games and sitting down and talking about it if there continues to be a problem should be the way to go. It might also just be that some people haven't adjusted to playing 8th yet and just running your 7th list with 7th gameplay probably isn't going to work a lot of the time.

cybercaine
20-08-2010, 07:41
Lizardmen are definitely a powerful army in 8th. I haven't really lost that many games either. I don't really fear the idea of the gunline. . . except in the armies that also run Thorek. Empire really isn't a threat. A Life Lore Slann combined with the EoG ward saves will enable your army to make the trek into the empire players teeth no problem. Thorek led dwarf armies are another problem entirely. He can still reliably kite your army. And dwarf magic defenses are through the roof, making your lore of life not so good. In my experience so far, well made and played Tecils armies and Thorek armies have been challenging. . . and that's about it. I haven't had to face off against DoC yet this edition, but much of the stuff I hated seeing on board last edition seems to be not so good now (Blue Scribes, Herald led Plaguebearers). But seriously, Thorek and Teclis are not so fun. Teclis seems to get 2 spells off a turn against LM even when stymied by BC while he dominates the LM magic phase with his extra dispel dice and stupid super dispel scroll. Thorek along with his friends with runes can usually have more dispel dice than the opposing player has casting dice. And with creative runes, he's dispelling with +4 without a wizard meaning that even if he fails, he can continue to dispel with that +4 bonus unlike a normal wizard. And they have super dispel scrolls as well. Other than those two armies, I can't think of too much to fear as a LM player.

Odominus
20-08-2010, 08:00
Empire really isn't a threat.

My Empire has yet to lose to Lizards. Worst I have done is minor victory. Against some very good players (some tourney winners too).

Slann doesnt do to good when he's dead on turn one...:evilgrin:

Some will know how to do this. Other will not.

Urgat
20-08-2010, 08:01
Vampire counts are garbage in 8th. Just my opinion.

My opinion is that no, they're definitely not. On the other hand, they do seem harder to play than before, and I'm kindda itching to get my army out, they've only seen one battle since I bought their latest armybook :p

Heimagoblin
20-08-2010, 08:11
My Empire has yet to lose to Lizards. Worst I have done is minor victory. Against some very good players (some tourney winners too).

Slann doesnt do to good when he's dead on turn one...:evilgrin:

Some will know how to do this. Other will not.

I can only imagine you mean nuke spells?


I've said it before in previous threads, your stubborn Ld9 rerolls aren't going to help when I look at you down the barrel of a cannon.

Play some Empire or Dwarves. Black powder goes a long way these days.

Not to be rude but what are cannons going to do to my leadership?


Vampire counts are garbage in 8th. Just my opinion.

My lizardmen take the item of passing off a miscast to a enemy wizard on a 2+. Along with the item of making him re-roll the result if I want.

I also make a enemy wizard discard any 6's to cast, meaning I have no silly purple sun to worry about.

My list is similar to yours but 2,000 so smaller saurus units. But I have two normal steggs for a total of three steggs.

I recommend lore of light on the slann to give your army extra initiative.

The idea is to move up in a unstopable wedge crushing everything before me. I have:

500pt slann with lots of gizmos.
EOTG

16 man saurus with slann in.
15 man saurus.
15 man saurus.
2 nilla steggs.
5 man camo skinks for killing war machines.

Using proxys for the saurus at the moment.

And stuff.

This would be great if I was looking to improve the army!


I have played TK twice at 4000 and 7300 with my orcs and I can't find anything solid or good in a TK army. We thougth TK should be better in the magic phase, but with WS2, S3 and I2 the charges is a joke.

Have your lizardmen battled an Empire army with hellblasters, rockets and cannons???

Have you faced Warriors of Chaos?

O&G can probably give the lizardmen a match with many units and lots of cheap bosses (orc/goblin on flying carpet charging skink priest on stegadon and challenge him to death).

Thats quite interesting as I actuall havn't played any of those armies.

Thanks so much for the respones so far. As I said will post a battle report today and if it proves as one sided as before I think I will try a list with no magic items at all.

Odominus
20-08-2010, 08:24
I can only imagine you mean nuke spells?

Thats one way. There are other, more reliable, ways.

Heimagoblin
20-08-2010, 08:41
A reliable way to drop a slann? In the first turn? When In templeguard? You sir have be completle stumped.

Godgolden
20-08-2010, 08:53
skitterleap brass orb but thats a different army lol

oCoYoRoAoKo
20-08-2010, 09:01
I know next to nothing about Vamps but i can give my thoughts on Daemons.



28 bloodletters with herald
25 Plaugebearers with herald
lord of change, twin heads
6 fleshounds
6 fleshhouns
6 flamers
6 flamers
5 furies


This list looks like it was built for 7th and is being used in 8th (indicators of this are the Plaguebunker, furies and the 2 small units of flesh hounds). That would be the main problem.

Plague-bearers really arent as good as they used to be, even with herald support (the points would be better spent in daemonettes IMO). The flesh-hounds also, are unable to break ranks anymore, and with the new step-up and steadfast rules, they just dont cut it anymore in such small numbers per unit.

Cy.

VoodooJanus
20-08-2010, 09:02
Go up against a Teclis HE list, and I think your luck will take a turn for the worse.

The issue is that LM are easily one of the top armies this edition, competing with WoC, HE, DE, and Skaven. Daemons took a hit (although they're still good) because they no longer can wipe out the front rank of an enemy's infantry, and they no longer can autobreak enemy units. VC suffer from the same problems (although 3 fold) because they have little combat ability, and relied on their fear and SCR to win (or vampire kills.) Either way, your army beats both of them in the combat phase, magic phase, and only really fare poorly in the shooting phase. The Daemon player brought some good shooting, but the amount of points the Daemon player spent was a huge investment (over investment in my opinion) for what he should have known would have brought him limited return. If he took along fateweaver, I could see the game going slightly better, but Daemons have a rougher time this edition than last.

Also- the Lore of Life is, by all accounts, completely ridiculous. If you like the models you're using, I'd suggest dropping that lore in favor of one of the more specialized ones (IE, not becoming immune to miscasts/adding 4 toughness to your units whilst simultaneously forcing str. tests.) I've avoided it even on my Wood Elves, as it's been a bit game breaking, and made my tactics dependent on my magic phase. I much prefer the Lore of Beasts (because that's my only other choice than the rather pathetic Lore of Athel Loren.) Try taking a death slaan, or a lore of light slaan, rather than the lore of life one. Besides, everyone and their mother uses the lore of life- it's refreshing to see the other lores used now and again.

Just to clarify, I'm not saying that you aren't one of the better players in your group, I am sure you are, but tabling people every time isn't fun for you (I'd imagine) or the other players. So set yourself up with a challenge. It'll do wonders for the quality of the game.

Also- something to watch out for- I've noticed that the DE players in my group (who are going up against super expensive Slaan armies) have begun taking Shadowblade, spawning him in the temple guard bunkers they tend to be in, and then slicing him into pâté. So if you're going up against DE, don't put your slaan in a unit bunker- because that's asking for him to get assassinated (although leaving him alone in front of all those RXB DE's doesn't sound all that much better...)

Also- be wary of Hochland Long Rifles. They are pretty much Slaan-guns.

Your list is by no means unbeatable, but it IS powerful.

Kampfpanzer
20-08-2010, 09:03
Not to be rude but what are cannons going to do to my leadership?



As for my list, the underlying problem is that 3 units comprising 1400 points of the army are stubborn, ld9, coldblooded and have a re-roll from the BSB.

The point is that your stubborn, rerollable, high Ld isn't going to save you from cannons and multiple 5" template weapons.

A decent Empire general will blow those units off the board in the first few turns.

To tell a good Empire player, look at what they have when they set up. If they don't have 1 war machine for every 500 points, then they aren't playing Empire properly.

warlord hack'a
20-08-2010, 09:14
I have not seen the TK list, but the other lists you posted (DoC and VC) suffer from one major drawback in regards to your list: they lack shooting and warmachines.

Your magic will be solid with a slann and a EotG, but a few hits form a rock lobber, mortar or massed bowfire will quickly reduce your big blocks of saurus, making it easier to finish off the remainder in a protracted HtH battle. A few boltthrowers will be able to worry your stegadons and then the flanks will be open for the enemy to take.

But without shooting/warmachines I can see how you can beat your opponents solidly everytime..

Azhrar
20-08-2010, 09:16
The point is that your stubborn, rerollable, high Ld isn't going to save you from cannons and multiple 5" template weapons.

A decent Empire general will blow those units off the board in the first few turns.

To tell a good Empire player, look at what they have when they set up. If they don't have 1 war machine for every 500 points, then they aren't playing Empire properly.

Gunline much ?

Ovassilias
20-08-2010, 09:44
seems to me that your friends still play like in 7th edition and havent read the book properly nor they have used any of the new combos/rules.

I doubt that if your VC player uses a Death suicide vamp that you or your Lizzies would think the same again.

Any wizard with Full Shadow or Death and power scroll can make your I1-2 army cry like little babies from round one.

Any army that has more then 2 war machines (and im not talking about bolt throwers) and a proper gunline can wipe you in 2-3 rounds.

So my guess is that your gaming group is more flyffy than competitive, get more games vs various lists and opponents and then post again.

Find a decent Skaven/Dwarf/Empire player and then we will see how your Lizzies perform. Heck, even orcs with 3 stone trowers, 2 doom divers, 6 chukkas and around 80-100 shortbows/bows +fanatics and 200 models can make you go puff! in 2-3 rounds.

Kampfpanzer
20-08-2010, 10:24
Gunline much ?

With 130 infantry in 2500 pt game, it's hardly a gunline. Empire is meant to be played with lots of war machines.

Heimagoblin
20-08-2010, 10:55
As have already said several times I have already played and beat teclis high elves so stop saying that! As for the gunlines, first if they did use a gunline they would not have to be a good player. Second, I have been using life for the exact reason that if I don't want my stegadons blown off the board unceremoniously by an empire cannon or by a bearded bundle of ginger with a height issue! The thing thats been happening with gunlines is that if they get first turn they focus fire my templeguard, usually reducing them to around 10. I then cast, regrowth,flesh to stone, earth blood on the unit using lfebloom to heal the stegadons which have been shot. The EOTG then throws up a 5+ ward save. Now, either they have to pick whole new unit or try and kill the t6/8, 3+ armour and 5+/4+ regen. If they do pick a new unit a similar thing happens. I have generally been hitting there lines turn 3 and from then on its mopping up. However, it sounds like I havn't been plaing such extreme gunlines as some. My game is at 1 so I will post a report after that.

VoodooJanus
20-08-2010, 13:41
As have already said several times I have already played and beat teclis high elves so stop saying that! As for the gunlines, first if they did use a gunline they would not have to be a good player. Second, I have been using life for the exact reason that if I don't want my stegadons blown off the board unceremoniously by an empire cannon or by a bearded bundle of ginger with a height issue! The thing thats been happening with gunlines is that if they get first turn they focus fire my templeguard, usually reducing them to around 10. I then cast, regrowth,flesh to stone, earth blood on the unit using lfebloom to heal the stegadons which have been shot. The EOTG then throws up a 5+ ward save. Now, either they have to pick whole new unit or try and kill the t6/8, 3+ armour and 5+/4+ regen. If they do pick a new unit a similar thing happens. I have generally been hitting there lines turn 3 and from then on its mopping up. However, it sounds like I havn't been plaing such extreme gunlines as some. My game is at 1 so I will post a report after that.

Um... I checked through the entire thread and I couldn't find any reference (aside from the above quoted post) to teclis. Maybe I missed something...

Yes, well, that's what happens when you take lore of life. It's really beardy. Not that you CAN'T use it, but it would certainly make your games more fun if you picked another lore. It'd still allow you to use all the models you said you liked, while still allowing some of the less powerful armies to compete. Also, what kind of magic defense is your opponent running??! How are you consistantly getting that many power dice per magic phase? I don't know how you can consistantly get those spells off with the randomness of the winds of magic? Do you use a power scroll?

I guess my point is, if your games are too easy, then you probably should shake things up so that you don't win all the time because that's what will make you a better player. You don't seem to be using THAT cheesy of a list, aside from the magic (as you seem to be well aware) Just TRY using lore of shadow, light or whichever one suits your fancy. Of course, if you LIKE that you're winning all the time (nothing wrong with that), then by all means do whatever you want, it just sounded like you wanted to have a more evenly matched battle.

PeG
20-08-2010, 14:16
On the other hand your opponents should be able to know or guess that you are using lore of life and have to deal with it the way players have always dealt with VC ie dont shoot anything you cant kill. Throw in some magic defence in the form of an arch lector, multiple WP (who each generates a DD), one or several scrolls and they should be able to put up a good fight.

Teclis with lore of death should be able to kill a lot of lizards but again to be more specific we need details on lists. As have been discussed in other threads he can be in a unit that is compeltely immune to magic and he doesnt have to be in the front rank which if he is also properly supported should again be able to put up a good fight.


The daemon list you mentioned is very 7th ed. Especially Plaguebearers are not worth their points, flesh hounds should be in larger units if used at all. If you want a competitive game he should bring heralds of tzeentch with MoS so that he can pick any lore. Using lore of death to kill lizards or life to boost his own units is good also for daemons. Use blue scribes to get powerdice for each spell you cast, or bring banner of sundering to limit your casting, -2LD icon + the masque to mess with your coldblooded LD etc.

Others have mentioned shadowblade who should be able to make short work of your Slann. DE can kill their own spearmen to get at least as much power in the magic phase as lizards, assassins in regular fighting units should be able to chop up some saurus

Skaven LD9 stubborn slaves should be able to hold your stegs while skaven warmachines and magic toasts them etc

From what have been posted it seems like you are using a hard but not OP Lizard list against less then great enemies. I belive that Lizards will be a high tier army in 8th but from what I have seen so far they are far from unstoppable.

Malorian
20-08-2010, 14:21
Don't drop the list, just change what you give the slann.

I'm guessing he has cupped hands and rumination, well try dropping those for something else and see how it goes.

Heimagoblin
20-08-2010, 14:35
Um... I checked through the entire thread and I couldn't find any reference (aside from the above quoted post) to teclis. Maybe I missed something...

That is proably because there isn't, my bad. I got confused between posts from this thread and ones on the lizardmen are unbeatable thread.Yes, well, that's what happens when you take lore of life. It's really beardy. Not that you CAN'T use it, but it would certainly make your games more fun if you picked another lore. It'd still allow you to use all the models you said you liked, while still allowing some of the less powerful armies to compete. Also, what kind of magic defense is your opponent running??! How are you consistantly getting that many power dice per magic phase? I don't know how you can consistantly get those spells off with the randomness of the winds of magic? Do you use a power scroll?

Rumination, and lots of 1 dice casting:angel:! Oh and I certainly do not use a power scroll. That item is looked upon with upmost distain in these parts!

I guess my point is, if your games are too easy, then you probably should shake things up so that you don't win all the time because that's what will make you a better player. You don't seem to be using THAT cheesy of a list, aside from the magic (as you seem to be well aware) Just TRY using lore of shadow, light or whichever one suits your fancy. Of course, if you LIKE that you're winning all the time (nothing wrong with that), then by all means do whatever you want, it just sounded like you wanted to have a more evenly matched battle.

Yea, if the no magic items doesn't work, i'll probably change lore.

Heimagoblin
20-08-2010, 15:07
Demployment.

--------------------------------------------------
--woods---field---------------------------ruins----
-----------field-----------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------
--woods----------------------building--------------
---------------------------------------------------

This was the battlefield. I was on the side with the building. Going from left to right I deployed my salamander in the woods, then a unit of 10 skinks opposite the field, then another unit of 10 on the right of the field, then a salamander, a unit of sarus in the building then a normal steg to the left of the building, then the slann+ templeguard, then the EOTG, then my final unit of sarus on the far right. I'm sure you guessed that it was refused flank styley!

He deployed, from my left to right, 20 ghouls, grave guard deathstar with general, BSB and vampire behind it with helm of command. This was just behind the field. Next came a hord of 40 skeletons on the left of the ruins and squeezed between the ruins and the skellies was another unit of 20 ghouls. To the right of the ruins he had his black coach and his black knights with wight king.

1st Turn

He gets the first turn and tries to correct the refused flank, marching with everything except the black Knights and coach, who move into there charge range but out of mine. Magic sees his coach gain flying, ethereal and + 1 impact hits. Not a good start. He also uses the one that creater spirit hosts and took a few wounds off here or there. The spirit hosts do nothing for the next 5 turns so will not be mentioned.

I begin by advancing my right flank, including templeguard, the set of sarus out of the building on the far right, and my EOTG. Magic sees me do not very much aside from getting off thrown of vines. I do however, eat his scroll. The salamanders (on the left) stayed to far away from my opponents units so didn't shoot and the skinks javelins are out of range.

Turn 2


Turn 2 starts with him charging his black coach into the exposed flank of my templeguard and his black knights charged the front (he took the bait yay). The rest of his army moves forward. He uses his magic to vanhels his GG closer to my lines. Combat sees him killing about 8 templeguard, who in turn manage to down a pathetic 1 black knight. They do however hold due to being stubborn.

My turn 2 starts with a charge from my sarus on the right into the rear of his black coach. The sacrificial skinks on the left move very close to the grave guard redirecting them. The salamander on the extreme left moves out of the woods marching strait past the ghouls cheakily. The salamander on the right retreats back to just next to the building. Magic goes off this turn despite a dissapointing start with the burnign alingment failing to hurt the ethereal black coach and only kills 1 black knight, despit rolling an impressive 5 hits (I forget it was str 5 against undead!). The slann gives the templeguard toughness 8 and gets off shield of thorns ( a great spell btw) on them also. I also cast regrowth giving me back only 3 templeguard, despite being the d6+1 version! Shield of thorns does nothing to kights or coach. In combat, I lose a few more templeguard but down 3 black knigts. I win and he starts to crumble. More coming soon...

Heimagoblin
20-08-2010, 15:29
Turn 3

Turn 3 begins with the Grave Guard charging the skinks, undettered by the stand and shoot reaction killing 4 graveguard (hurray for moral victory!). He then marches his whole line up (I begin to notice a pattern here!) including the ghouls near the ruins on my right, who move very close to the ancient stegadon on the left of my templeguard, stopping him flanking the knights. The other unit of ghouls on my extreme left turn to try and catch the plucky salamander, who's shot had "accidently" reached over the ghouls killing 7 Grave guard!

Combat sees my brave super skinks (dubbed so from putting 3 wounds on a lord of change from 9 shots and redscovered after there impressive stand and shoot the previous turn) put a wound on the vampire count BSB! Unfortunatly (some might say enevitably!), they them move on to a better place at the hands of 30 str 6 attacks with hatred aswell as 3 combat vampires including vlad himself. Seing this, fo just one second and becuase I was studying the slann model carfully, I could have sworn I saw a flicker of hesitation.

My turn 3 sees the salamander continue to do the tango with the ghouls, moving round them to line up another shot on the grave guard. My salamander next to the building finally grows a pair and moves foward, the skink handlers aiming him at the skeletons. My ancient steg charges the ghouls on the left of the ongoing combat with the templeguard, knights, coach and sarus. Magic sees me give the steg regen (I am overerly protective of them lol) aswell as casting flech to stone on the templguard. He dispelled throne of vines, regrowth, and shielsd of thorns, thank to an impressive 2 channels. Combat sees the templeguard fand sarus finally killing their respective oppoenents and reform to face the combat with the steg and the ghouls.

We discovered apon closer inspection that the regen spell only worked on the unit the wizard was with, but he was determined to let me have it as he said he had also made the mistake by not pointing it out. In the end we had to dice for it which I (or you could say he) won. I was now a little worried as my steg had no regen and the ghouls had poison (told you I was overprotective:D). Perhaps anyoed my my babysitting him, the steg crushed all 20 ghouls, thanks to an impresssive impact hits and thunderstomp.

Meanwhile on the other side of the battlefield the salamander do littlle damage but continue to prove an anoyance.

Heimagoblin
20-08-2010, 15:39
Turn 4

Turn 4 starts with (guess what) the remanders of his centre and his ominous left flank march foward, Now bairly 14 inches from my ancient, templeguard, EotG, and the sarus in the building aswell as those out on the field . A low roll for magic means aswell as finally coming into range of becalming cogitation all he can manage to do is raise grave guard back, about 5 in total.

--------------------------------------------------
--woods---field----------------------Ancient ruins----
-----------field--------------------------Sarus--------
-Salamander-ghouls-----GG-Skeles---------TG-----------
---------------------skinks------------Eotg------------
--woods--------------------sally building--------------
---------------------------------------------------

My turn sees me reform the line round Theodin, I mean the slann, stetching from the sarus in the building to the ruins, and going from building sarus, EOTG, templeguard, sarus, ancient stegadon. My second unit of skinks advances in front of the Grave Guard, redierecting them for a second time. Magic sees him dispel dwellers below and awaking of the wood, but I do get throne of vines off again. The salamander on my etreme left misses the grave guard, with an overexcited 10 inch shot, but lands slap bang in the middle of his 40 skeletons, killing 14. The other salamander aslo does well, killing 6 skeletons. The javelins from the non uber skinks infron of the grave guard do nothing, back to busisness as usual for them it seems.

Heimagoblin
20-08-2010, 15:53
Turn 5

His grave guard charge the skinks and the skeletons swift reform to face my lines, using the building to block there right flank from charges. The spirit hosts charge the building. The graveguard anialate the skinks and the ghouls howl in frustration, perhaps realising they will play no part in the battle. Magic was again uneventful (see becalming cogitation:angel:). The spirit hosts could not wound the sarus and due to being ethereal the sarus could do nothing to them. This put both units out the game. The grave guar reformed after murdering the skinks.

My turn 5 sees the brave brave salamander charge the rear of the skeletons. He then recieves flesh to stone, shield of thorns and harmonic convergance. The slann nd co retreat knowing there job is done and there is not need to risk fighting the fabled vampire or his grave guard buddies. The salamander inflicts serious damge on the skeletons, who were reduced to 12 or so men after several impressive shooting phases, and were reduced stll further due to sheild of thorns and the salamaners str 5 attacks.

His turn 6 is pretty uneventful, although he does dispel shield of thorns savalging alot of points from his skeletons. We don't boter doing my turn 6 as there was no way I could kill any of his units and no way he could kill any of mine. Finished with minor victory, due to only conseding 100 points of actual casulties. No magic items for me next game!

Orangecoke
20-08-2010, 16:20
I'm a noob and just finishing up a vc army, but all my research has pointed to skelliez (even in hordes) not being very good. Possibly he could have caused you more trouble with a different choice.

theunwantedbeing
20-08-2010, 16:39
Would be nice to see a posted list of your army in its "unbeatable" form.
presumably your just winning due to oppoentns doing one or more of the following
1. Not prioritising their targets properly
2. Just plain not having a good list
3. Just plain not knowing how to deal with your list
4. Massive power imbalance in your favour

Vamps can certainly build themselves an army that can shred saurus and templeguard with relative ease, regardless of whether or not there is a slann in the mix. They do lack the ranged firepower to remove your smaller annoyance units but they're of litte consequence when they can go straight for the heavy pointsinks and cut them out.

8th is quite different to 7th, I've won a few games I shouldn't have done with a vastly inferior army simply due to my opponent using a 7th ed mentality.

Ovassilias
20-08-2010, 17:03
There is no VC player on hes right mind that uses Vlad. Ever.

Especially in 8th were PD are needed to raise back the fallen (aka master of black arts on your highest level caster), which in this edition they go down in droves. That was the first funny thing i saw in your report.

The second is the Grave Guard deathstar as u say, but u dont mention how many and what gear they had. A Grave Guard Deathstar in 8th means 30-40 with great weapons, banner of the barrows, drakenhoff bsb joined and a helm vamp near by, all of that in a horde formation.
You HAVE to deploy this unit dead centre, period. Otherwise the situation u described arises. If your friend is playing VC long he should know by now that the "deathstar" unit needs to hold the centre so they can move where they need to.

The third thing i noticed is u dont mention what scenario u played, it looks like Battleline cause every other scenario has a small deployment twist. And what on earth is a "field"? Not a single special terrain in your rolls and what do you know....4 pieces only when the book says D6+4 roll....unless the field u say (which there is not a thing like that in the random terrain generator) is the 5th.

Anyway, your friends list is as i expected....7th edition with a small twist (40 skellies) trying to play in 8th.

So, maybe u should give the full info next time before u start saying your army/list is too good and try to play the proper way by rolling the scenario and the terrain. With an experienced and competitive player i doubt u can claim the same after a few games.

stashman
20-08-2010, 17:04
What scenario did you play in the last game?

Heimagoblin
20-08-2010, 17:05
Would be nice to see a posted list of your army in its "unbeatable" form.

Not sure I know what you mean here:wtf:.
presumably your just winning due to oppoentns doing one or more of the following
1. Not prioritising their targets properly

Not prioritising with what.Shooting? If so then then I kindly ask that you read the thread before posting as I have covered this topic in detail.

2. Just plain not having a good list

OK, so what improvemets would you suggest which I could pass on?
3. Just plain not knowing how to deal with your list
Again, please tell me how you would deal with this list and I can pass it on, presuming its valid and not just unhelpful like your post.

4. Massive power imbalance in your favour

I have already said this. I don't understand what you are trying to accomplish my repeating it. Maybe you want me to feel bad about playing my lizardmen against them, well news for you is that I already do which you would know if you read the thread.

Vamps can certainly build themselves an army that can shred saurus and templeguard with relative ease, regardless of whether or not there is a slann in the mix. They do lack the ranged firepower to remove your smaller annoyance units but they're of litte consequence when they can go straight for the heavy pointsinks and cut them out.

So what are you suggesting he should have done differently?

8th is quite different to 7th, I've won a few games I shouldn't have done with a vastly inferior army simply due to my opponent using a 7th ed mentality.

Thank you for your informative post. :rolleyes:

Heimagoblin
20-08-2010, 17:05
What scenario did you play in the last game?

We rolled a pitch battle.

cybercaine
20-08-2010, 17:09
The point is that your stubborn, rerollable, high Ld isn't going to save you from cannons and multiple 5" template weapons.

A decent Empire general will blow those units off the board in the first few turns.

To tell a good Empire player, look at what they have when they set up. If they don't have 1 war machine for every 500 points, then they aren't playing Empire properly.

I agree that a decent Empire player should have that amount of war machines. I disagree in that I think it's effective enough to deal with a lore of life Slaan in a bunker. First, the EoG should be buffing much of the units around it which should absolutely include the TG with Slaan with a 5+ ward save. Add in the buff spells of life making the TG t8 which pretty much renders anything non canon or direct hit stone thrower fairly useless. Add in a potential regen, bringing models back, healing the EoG with every successful spell and you have a winning combination for marching on Empire.

As for Slaan sniping with empire, let's be realistic. This is so unlikely it hurts. First, Slaan get a lookout sir for everything that pretty much matters except the lore of life and metals insta-unit-gib spells. Now, add in the Life buff spells. Now add in the item that upgrades their ward save to 2+ against ranged attacks (some people also seem partial to the immunity to non-magical attacks buff). Seems really hard to snipe him, no? And if you fail to kill him in a round, he heals with his life spells. Anyone who says it's easy to snipe him honestly hasn't played against the correct load out or anyone that knows what they're doing.

But I do fear the dwarfs. Thorek is no fun. No fun at all. He makes your units take extra turns to get across the board. And dwarfs can just plain shut down your magic phase. On bad turns, you can easily end up with 6-8 power dice and the dwarf player 12 dispel. And if they take certain runes, they can be dispelling at equal to or greater your bonus to cast. Even with FR, good luck getting spells. No spells means that your units get crushed easily and can't come back. Against these armies, I've pretty much just tried to bomb Comet with my EoG (which has about a 70% chance of getting comet with the extra spell item from the LM book) first turn and hope for IF. . . that way I can put a severe crimp in their warmachines and gunline. Even if it forces them to move a turn and not shoot, it's a victory. Especially given that those war machines aren't getting very far away. Other than that, I pretty much have little hope against dwarfs.

stashman
20-08-2010, 17:14
We rolled a pitch battle.

What special terrain did you roll. What was the mysteryforest? What did the ruin give for special addings? Whats a field?

Heimagoblin
20-08-2010, 17:47
double post

Heimagoblin
20-08-2010, 17:48
There is no VC player on hes right mind that uses Vlad. Ever.

Especially in 8th were PD are needed to raise back the fallen (aka master of black arts on your highest level caster), which in this edition they go down in droves. That was the first funny thing i saw in your report.



I will pass it on but I am dissaponted that you found the report funny. They do take along time you know.



The second is the Grave Guard deathstar as u say, but u dont mention how many and what gear they had. A Grave Guard Deathstar in 8th means 30-40 with great weapons, banner of the barrows, drakenhoff bsb joined and a helm vamp near by, all of that in a horde formation.
You HAVE to deploy this unit dead centre, period. Otherwise the situation u described arises. If your friend is playing VC long he should know by now that the "deathstar" unit needs to hold the centre so they can move where they need to.


There were 40 grave guard with great weapons in a horde, hatred banner, drakenhof, BSB and a vampire near by with helm of command so yea, it was a deathstar. As for the deployment thing, he pretty much did deploy them centre. Its just that I deployed right out wide and used sacrificial units to slow him down. However, its valid advice and something I will pass on so thanks for that.
The third thing i noticed is u dont mention what scenario u played, it looks like Battleline cause every other scenario has a small deployment twist. And what on earth is a "field"? Not a single special terrain in your rolls and what do you know....4 pieces only when the book says D6+4 roll....unless the field u say (which there is not a thing like that in the random terrain generator) is the 5th.

We played pitch battle, which we actually rolled and got. The terrain was speical but didn't play anypart in the game. The ruins were actually an elven waystone, the wood a venom thicket and there was some more terrain that I can't remember, possibly a blood forst and khermri quicksands, but these played no part in the battle as they were on the extreme left so I didn't bother including them. Good to see you took the time to study the report carefully though.Anyway, your friends list is as i expected....7th edition with a small twist (40 skellies) trying to play in 8th.

So, maybe u should give the full info next time before u start saying your army/list is too good and try to play the proper way by rolling the scenario and the terrain. With an experienced and competitive player i doubt u can claim the same after a few games.

Sorry about the lack of info but if I told you everything I would probably still be typing it up! Perhaps you shold have asked about the terrain and such because it came across a tad rude, at least to me. And again, I have been playing experienced players, some of the best in my club and winning with little thought. I can't stress that enough. I am not boasting. I am sometimes outplayed but I still win. The game today was a bad example of that as I felt I did outplay him, however "hilarious" his tactics were.

ps. Thanks very much to all that have commented but I have not had time to reply too. Your advice is appreciated.

edit: we treated the field as a wood surrounded by fences. Also, there are no dwarfen players of high calibre at my club so I will have to take your word for that. Your right though, those anvlils of doom do seem like a real pain, at least on paper

Kampfpanzer
20-08-2010, 18:29
As for Slaan sniping with empire, let's be realistic. This is so unlikely it hurts. First, Slaan get a lookout sir for everything that pretty much matters except the lore of life and metals insta-unit-gib spells.

It's not as effective, but you don't get LoS from HLRs either and just say you have 2 gun units, outriders and 2 engies (not what I take, but i've seen it), that's 5 HLR shots with no LOS save.

I've also seen 1 rocket salvo take a 35 man unit down to 7 in 1 hit, albeit, they were M@A, but put in 2 more mortars and maybe a volley gun and cannon, I can't see a full unit surviving or at least holding. Just pick a unit and nuke it, next turn, new unit and clean up the remains with cav/halbs/GS.

My main unit is an unbreakable, fear-causing unit of 40 halbs with hatred, backed by a unit of 35 halbs and 30 swords to take the charge/front with another 21 unbreakable hate-filled greatswords. Hitting a unit even with 1 or 2 of my infantry units after they have just been focus fired by artillery doesn't leave a lot left, if anything, doesn't matter what saves you have, the sheer amount of hits you take will grind down unit after unit turn after turn. This is only with my WP buffs, not including my AL buffs, golden griffon buffs nor my Wizard Lord buffs. With all that, I can have a pretty indestructible front line and with +4 (5 with channeling) dispel dice, I can, and often do, have more dispel dice than my opponent has power dice.

Malorian
20-08-2010, 18:31
I still have had no reply to the idea of just dropping the rumination and cupped hands from the slann so that your magic isn't insane...

Tae
20-08-2010, 18:52
Personally I didn't have much trouble with our local Life Slaan TG bunker when I faced it with Sigvald, MoS Halberding WoC's which had just a single level 1 in it (so didn't try the 'out magic' approach).

Admitedly it wasn't easy and it's definately a hard army but it's far from unbeatable.

Peril
20-08-2010, 19:16
I still have had no reply to the idea of just dropping the rumination and cupped hands from the slann so that your magic isn't insane...

^^^ He knows of what he speaks.

Odominus
20-08-2010, 19:44
A reliable way to drop a slann? In the first turn? When In templeguard? You sir have be completle stumped.

Hehe. Yea, maybe you need to go to some bigger tourneys. You really need to find some competition. If you are 25-0 (or whatever the record was), then wow.

Ok, I can think of 5 different ways to pluck the Slann at the top of the game. I will give you ONE:

Lv4 Shadow mage, uses power scroll and casts The Withering on your temple guard/slann unit.

Then 3ish mortars and 3ish rockets target the unit. Finish up with cannons. Using a couple engineers and using direct/indirect fire should make this fairly routine. Not only Slann sniped, but TG is wiped out too.


Although the most obvious, Power Scroll + Dwellers kills the slann on a 4+. This is the one everyone around here is using. In the event any of your opponents see this thread, try this tactic out first. If they roll high for PD, then try casting Enfeebling Foe on the Slann unit first>;p

Heimagoblin
20-08-2010, 21:02
I still have had no reply to the idea of just dropping the rumination and cupped hands from the slann so that your magic isn't insane...

Yea, I am going to drop the cupped hands for sure and may drop rumination depending on how soft/hard my next opponent's army is.

edit: yea that shadow magic is something I hadn't conisidered but don't forget my skink is (or was) packing. (a dispel scroll) Also, the slann has (or had) cogitation and with the power scroll all but banned around here a first turn anialate would be pretty darn hard! And with 3 rockets, you would have to be playing 3k which would mean extra TG but more importantly, are games don't go to 3k because of the ridiculous increase in slots (up to 6 of the same special being the biggest culprit).

Odominus
20-08-2010, 21:05
Hehe no worries. It works against many others too (not just the Slann).

Power Scroll doesnt bother with dispel scrolls.


the power scroll all but banned around here

Maybe against your slann...teclis...etc.....it should be UNbanned;) What else have you banned on the way to 24-0?

edit lol you are editting ninja me!

Yep. Most my lists are 3k these days. Especially with ard boyz coming up. Did you just say 'ridiculous'? Hehe what's ridiculous is that you are 24-0. The law of averages agrees with me.:evilgrin:

Odominus
20-08-2010, 21:16
dbl post. Sry.

Heimagoblin
20-08-2010, 21:45
Hehe no worries. It works against many others too (not just the Slann).

Power Scroll doesnt bother with dispel scrolls.



Maybe against your slann...teclis...etc.....it should be UNbanned;) What else have you banned on the way to 24-0?

edit lol you are editting ninja me!

Yep. Most my lists are 3k these days. Especially with ard boyz coming up. Did you just say 'ridiculous'? Hehe what's ridiculous is that you are 24-0. The law of averages agrees with me.:evilgrin:

Hee Hee. Anyway, I didn't realise hard boyz was 3k. Seem to open it up to alot of abuse, but, Ispose thats what they wanted!

Odominus
20-08-2010, 22:32
Hee Hee. Anyway, I didn't realise hard boyz was 3k. Seem to open it up to alot of abuse, but, Ispose thats what they wanted!

3k or Ard Boyz? Both are abuse?

Lord Dan
20-08-2010, 22:34
Glad to see you got a report up! It looks like you had a good game. Ignoring list construction and dice rolling I noted two fairly serious tactical blunders on your opponent's part.

1) Deathstars are so last edition- VC armies in particular rely on their characters being spread out throughout the army, as unsupported undead units tend...well, to die. In addition, with 1,000+ point invested into a single M4 unit you're begging an opponent with any kind of tactical sense to throw cheap re-directors your way to ensure the absurd damage output of the deathstar unit isn't realized. Finally, with 8th edition there now are plenty of spells that "auto-kill" units without any kind of real saves. Let's face it fellow VC players-- there's not a whole lot of good invocation will do for us when there's nothing left to ressurect. Two out of three of these issues showed up in your game, where a small unit of skinks took a 1,000 point unit out of the game and allowed the rest of your army to run down his lonely units of skeletons and ghouls.

2) "GET TO THE CHOPPA!"- Armies that don't have any real offensive magic or shooting tend to suffer from the same issue: their generals can't resist getting into combat as fast as they possibly can. Every move we make is based on a cost/ benefit ratio weighing our desire to get into combat with the cost of getting ourselves there. I've been playing chess for a number of years, and one of the first chess books I read opened with the following piece of advice: "Look for the best move. Once you've found it, look for a better move." On turn 2 your opponent charged his black knights and black coach into your temple guard, which I'm sure must have seemed like a good idea to him at the time. Your temple guard moved into charge range, and he no doubt thought: "I doubt my knights can take down a ranked unit with a front charge." He then saw that his coach drew a line to the unit's flank. No doubt he now thought: "Wow, he exposed his flank! I'd be a fool not to make that charge!" While he was moving his units into combat he clearly wasn't doing any math, because the odds of a handful of WS3 A1 knights and a buffed up chariot bringing down a fully ranked Ld9, stubborn, cold-blooded unit with a BSB nearby are quite low. This move, which in hindsight was a fairly obvious mistake, looked like a good move at the time and cost him 400+ points and key control of the center of the board.

He made some other small mistakes throughout the game, however I believe these two contributed most directly to his loss. Equally importantly you played very well. A good win overall, and I'm looking forward to the next two reports.

Heimagoblin
20-08-2010, 23:41
OK, i'm going on holiday tommorrow (soso no internet) so this will be my last post. When I get back I will have more reports for you all to study. See you soon!

R Man
21-08-2010, 00:18
I have to agree with Lord Dan. I don't think your opponents are quite as adapted for this edition as they could be.

So your opponents need to shape up. For example those Black Knights would be better put to riding the battlefield of Salamanders and Skinks, along with the coach and bringing them back in later for the crunch when it really matters.

Perhaps your opponent can bring corpse carts? I have not yet played against them, but I have heard that they are good against spells.

P.S: ASF with Higher Initiative = Re-roll to hit. With Ghouls and poisoned attacks, could be interesting.

cybercaine
21-08-2010, 01:06
It's not as effective, but you don't get LoS from HLRs either and just say you have 2 gun units, outriders and 2 engies (not what I take, but i've seen it), that's 5 HLR shots with no LOS save.


First, LoS doesn't matter against HLRs. There is entirely the possibility that the slaan is immune to non-magical damage. Barring that, he could easily have a 2+ ward. Even if neither of these happens, with the life lore he is most likely t8. Shoot at him all you want. Even if you can manage to wound him, he's going to heal himself next turn when he's casting spells again. You practically have to kill him in a single turn. He's that resilient. It can be done. . . . it's just unlikely.


I've also seen 1 rocket salvo take a 35 man unit down to 7 in 1 hit, albeit, they were M@A, but put in 2 more mortars and maybe a volley gun and cannon, I can't see a full unit surviving or at least holding. Just pick a unit and nuke it, next turn, new unit and clean up the remains with cav/halbs/GS.


First off, temple guard aren't running with the slaan alive. . . ever. . . as they're ITP. It's impossible for non-break tests and incredibly improbable for break tests (1 in 2916 with that +1 LD banner unless they have a LD debuff against them). It's incredibly hard to shut down the LM magic phase unless the defensive player is bringing Dwarfs or Teclis in my experience. . . or another Slaan. Rocket's are highly ineffective at killing buffed TG. Actually, saying highly ineffective is sort of an understatement. I guess it comes down to shutting down the LM life lore magic phase if you want to be able to nuke that unit at range. Otherwise, s5 rockets and s3 mortars are fine against t8 guys or guys with 4+ regens. If you are unable to shut down the LM magic phase, you could practically get direct hits with all your weapons every turn and not be able to kill the units. Those spells are that good and the Slaan is that good at getting them off.


My main unit is an unbreakable, fear-causing unit of 40 halbs with hatred, backed by a unit of 35 halbs and 30 swords to take the charge/front with another 21 unbreakable hate-filled greatswords. Hitting a unit even with 1 or 2 of my infantry units after they have just been focus fired by artillery doesn't leave a lot left, if anything, doesn't matter what saves you have, the sheer amount of hits you take will grind down unit after unit turn after turn. This is only with my WP buffs, not including my AL buffs, golden griffon buffs nor my Wizard Lord buffs. With all that, I can have a pretty indestructible front line and with +4 (5 with channeling) dispel dice, I can, and often do, have more dispel dice than my opponent has power dice.

Unfortunately, the Slaan is usually much better at shutting down the opponent's magic phase than vice versa. BC really does put a crimp in your WL buffs. I agree that your front line can be fairly scary. I am more scared of your fighty stuff than your ranged fire. But again, this matchup comes down to magic. Can you keep the buffs off the lizards? Can you cast spells? I have watched my 25 strong unit of TG with a slaan inside fully buffed weather a multi-charge from HE WL, SM, and PG in the same turn (it was an unlikely group of charges. . . but he rolled a 17" charge with the 2 units that ended up flank charging). Buffed, those TG aren't dying hardly at all. And those are just about the scariest 3 things you can imagine charging in. With rerolls to hit, going before the lizards. . . it could get dicey. Except because of the buffs, I lost 4 guys. . . which came back from the dead on my turn. I even lost combat I think. . . but it didn't matter. It's a numbers grind that once again comes down to the magic phase. Essentially, your ability to deal with LM can be boiled down to that simple formula. Everything else is almost inconsequential.

Seville
21-08-2010, 01:15
Whenever this topic comes up (which it seems to about once a month, at least), it reminds me of when the teen sex advice radio show Love Line was first on the air about 20 years ago. Without fail, at least once a week, they'd get a teenage boy calling in "complaining" that his thing was just way too big. He would assure everyone that he wasn't bragging - just genuinely beside himself with grief because it was just too big.

Poorman and Dr. Drew would do the verbal equivalent of an eye-roll, hang up on the kid, and move on to the next caller. I kind of feel like the reaction should be the same here. :)

R Man
21-08-2010, 01:20
Why is everyone so bent on taking out the Slaan and Temple Guard if they are that buffed? Why not take out the other unit(s) of Saurus, or the Stegadon and priest to hamper their Magic Phase. You won't kill the Slaan or stop the guard, but that was never going to happen anyway.

cybercaine
21-08-2010, 01:34
Why is everyone so bent on taking out the Slaan and Temple Guard if they are that buffed? Why not take out the other unit(s) of Saurus, or the Stegadon and priest to hamper their Magic Phase. You won't kill the Slaan or stop the guard, but that was never going to happen anyway.

When I play LM, I usually spread the buffs around. Regen on the TG, + T on the Saurus or EoG, use the EoG to give itself and other units the 5+ ward save. . . In my experience thus far, it is very hard to deal with any of the units especially when having to worry about little skinks and salamanders outmaneuvering your warmachines and or units. Target priority becomes a hard thing at that point because the effectiveness of your firing is reduced significantly.

theunwantedbeing
21-08-2010, 01:48
Thank you for your informative post. :rolleyes:

Yes well unless you post the lists there's little I can say on the issues your having. Battle reports are generally unhelpful and overly vague, given a list I can run the numbers and play the fights out myself to see how best to deal with the given units with what the enemy has.

R Man
21-08-2010, 01:53
When I play LM, I usually spread the buffs around. Regen on the TG, + T on the Saurus or EoG, use the EoG to give itself and other units the 5+ ward save. . . In my experience thus far, it is very hard to deal with any of the units especially when having to worry about little skinks and salamanders outmaneuvering your warmachines and or units. Target priority becomes a hard thing at that point because the effectiveness of your firing is reduced significantly.

Wouldn't the first target be the skink priest then? Or at least the stegadon? Even with a ward they should go down to a few cannons and mortars. And traditional forms of protection are harder to pull off with TLOS. Which means that the Slaan now has to spread his power over all of them. And since you should know what spells are cast in the last phase you can target any unit your opponent fails to buff, or buffs the least. Easier said than done of course, but that would be what I'd try. If my army had cannons that is.

treben1234
21-08-2010, 03:58
You shouldn't underestimate the power of manipulating the space/time continuum in a strategy game, nor the significance of understanding the mechanics of the Fry-hole. Nasty business I tell you ;)

I believe you mean a "Hawking hole".:p

cybercaine
21-08-2010, 04:19
Wouldn't the first target be the skink priest then? Or at least the stegadon? Even with a ward they should go down to a few cannons and mortars. And traditional forms of protection are harder to pull off with TLOS. Which means that the Slaan now has to spread his power over all of them. And since you should know what spells are cast in the last phase you can target any unit your opponent fails to buff, or buffs the least. Easier said than done of course, but that would be what I'd try. If my army had cannons that is.

I agree. But you'd be surprised how many people get focused on the slaan. People see attempt to canon snipe a 500 pt character and jump on it, no matter how mathematically improbable it is.

But my overriding point on this discussion was why I fear dwarfs and not really Empire as a devout LM player since 5th edition. Empire has less turns to attempt to snipe things like the Stegs, as it moves across the board fast with it's m6 (fairly reliable t2 charge if needed). Not to mention the skinks and the salamanders. Even marching Saurus and TG usually can reliably charge turn 3. This doesn't leave many rounds to canon snipe. With march blocking LM practically dead (try march blocking rerollable ld 10 coldblooded), this leaves the empire player with a dicey prospect in trying to halt the inexorable march of the lizzies.

Dwarves with thorek on the other hand are a whole other ballgame. He can kite the LM. And he can stop them from healing and buffing themselves. I fear dwarfs with thorek. Empire is a matchup in which I think LM have the advantage. I think anti-magic gunline dwarfs with thorek quite clearly have the advantage on LM.

Gorak
21-08-2010, 10:19
Ok one thing I've noticed is that it you assume that yo9u will have all your spells cast all the time? This just isn't fessible unless you roll like a champ which than I suggest go play some craps and become a millionare! Your list is far from unbeatable, a DE list with 2 hydra's wich are sicked on your ytemplegaurd and slaan should destroy it! Lore of shadow...death anything with I test really. Again just casue you make someone drop 6's doesn't mean you shut dowen magic competly. ALso banning power scroll is hella lame, why not bane all magic items or wizards,really now if some one want to go for a one shot ultimate power it should be allowed, why do ytou get to take a "free" power dice with each casting? Remember with the "free" power dice ability YOU STILL HAVE TO USE 1 OF YOUR POLL DICE!!! as you can not attemp to cast a spell with 0 dice.....OK once again, smart dispelling and taking out the 500+ points that is your temple guard and slaan pretty mcuh wins the game for your oppents.

cybercaine
21-08-2010, 16:06
Ok one thing I've noticed is that it you assume that yo9u will have all your spells cast all the time? This just isn't fessible unless you roll like a champ which than I suggest go play some craps and become a millionare! Your list is far from unbeatable, a DE list with 2 hydra's wich are sicked on your ytemplegaurd and slaan should destroy it! Lore of shadow...death anything with I test really. Again just casue you make someone drop 6's doesn't mean you shut dowen magic competly. ALso banning power scroll is hella lame, why not bane all magic items or wizards,really now if some one want to go for a one shot ultimate power it should be allowed, why do ytou get to take a "free" power dice with each casting? Remember with the "free" power dice ability YOU STILL HAVE TO USE 1 OF YOUR POLL DICE!!! as you can not attemp to cast a spell with 0 dice.....OK once again, smart dispelling and taking out the 500+ points that is your temple guard and slaan pretty mcuh wins the game for your oppents.

First: Shutting down 6's usually means that I get to choose a couple of spells and shut them down. Don't like purple sun or pit of shades? Guess what, no IF and I can stop them reliably. The thing that's best about BC is that it really skews the math with dice rolling in this edition. Failing to cast a spell can happen a lot more if the opposing wizard isn't careful.

Second: If an opponent isn't playing Teclis or crazy anti-magic dwarves, it is impossible to deal with the LM magic phase. Focused Rumination is that good. I don't even mind rolling 3 dice or 2 dice. Guess what? 2 dice turns into 2 spells that my opponent cannot generally dispel wit his 1 die. If I roll 3 that's generally 3 spells of which my opponent can try to stop one. And if I happen to roll a large amount of dice. . . not only does the slaan get to cast a bunch of spells but after he's done my skink priest get's a shot at casting some spells. I don't have to get every spell off. . . but I just need to get a spell or two off. In my experience, LM have the advantage.

Third: I was the one that mentioned shutting down the magic phase. I however wasn't the one that mentioned "banning the power scroll". I cannot imagine that this is addressed to me.

Fourth: I agree that the hydras will do well against the TG. 2 hydras will just about dominate anything they run into though. I mean, with the breath weapon able to be used in h2h, the high volume of incoming hatred high strength attacks, and then the thunderstomp, the hypdras will put a hurt on almost any unit. The trick is getting them where they need to be. But this is nothing new. This happened last edition as well with double hydras dominating units. The difference now is that it seems like there are more tricks available to a LM player to kill a hydra. There's the flaming attacks banner, more powerful spells, even salamanders help as they can remove the regen for that shooting phase and then you can pelt the hydra with 30 skink javelins. But still it isn't easy. This is one of the reasons that to this day, my TG haven't been charged by more than one hydra in the same turn.

night2501
21-08-2010, 16:30
hmm seriously, the slann is great at magic and all, but i think you are overestimating the magic phase, yes you can pass some spell trough, but will you pass them all the time, not to mention, the enemy can take different approach, for example, sacrifice something to take down the skink priest, also the opponent doe snot need to dispel everything, he just need to dispel the right spell and you can not cast it again, for example, if the opponent take down the skink priest, and then dispel only the life spell to recover minis, since you can cast the spells only once per phase, this will leave you with a tough choice, since the opponent can simple pick at different units to soften up, instead of trying to hurt the one with the ward save or the one with the extra T, also massed bow fire works well there, with 6 always wounding even the stegadons are nto as safe.

well it all depends too much on the armies playing and how you approach the game and situations on the field, in fact more than the magic phase I thin is true not all armies can take the saurus block on melle despite outmanouvering them.

cybercaine
22-08-2010, 08:02
hmm seriously, the slann is great at magic and all, but i think you are overestimating the magic phase, yes you can pass some spell trough, but will you pass them all the time, not to mention, the enemy can take different approach, for example, sacrifice something to take down the skink priest, also the opponent doe snot need to dispel everything, he just need to dispel the right spell and you can not cast it again, for example, if the opponent take down the skink priest, and then dispel only the life spell to recover minis, since you can cast the spells only once per phase, this will leave you with a tough choice, since the opponent can simple pick at different units to soften up, instead of trying to hurt the one with the ward save or the one with the extra T, also massed bow fire works well there, with 6 always wounding even the stegadons are nto as safe.


Massed bow fire really doesn't work that well. Massed repeater crossbow fire can do some damage as can handguns as they tend to screw the math a little bit in the favor of shooting. Even given short range, bows are likely (HE as I'm not going to bother thinking about WE because they are significantly behind in this matchup already) hitting on 3's, randomizing, 1 in 6 hit the priest, 2 in 3 wound, he suffers after saves (against shooty armies I always have ward save EoG buff) 1 in 9. Meaning effectively that it will average out at something like 243 shots to put 2 wounds on the priest. As for the stegs: 2 in 3 hit, 2 in 3 randomize to him, 1 in 6 wound, and he suffers 2 in 9 wounds of those. This effectively means that he suffers 4 wounds on average in those 243 shots. Essentially, it is less than a 1% chance to put a wound on a priest per shot and less than a 2% chance to put a wound on the stegs per shot. And of course lesser BS armies like brets or goblins have an even worse chance while armies with more penetrating weapons like Empire, DE, etc increase the chances a bit. But I like my chances of healing those wounds from bow fire with Lore of Life. . .

night2501
22-08-2010, 15:32
Caine ... sorry i play WE and can tell you... you have no idea what is like facing a good WE army, and i don´t think they are that behind in the power department either...

and as I told you, the only spell the opponent have to worry about dispelling is the one to recover wounds, shooting is and never will be to wipe out units (well maybe with some war machines XD), but to soften them up, the idea is not to kill the skin priest with shooting, but to led a little suicide charge with a fast heavy hitting unit (WE have lots of those, and even if I loose that unit and loose those points for killing something that cost 1/3 if i gain control over the magic phase is worth it), while withing out ranks of saurus or skinks, so when the time comes the heavy hitters just have to mop up, this probably won´t work with all units, but will with a couple, given WE mobility right now thanks to 2 ranks fire and skirmishers marching and shooting...

btw in 7 I even played once in a mini tournament with no mages at all, and managed to pull some quite good games... in fact I won most of them, the trick was using my lord on dragon with a 3+ ward till he failed it to wither the first round and then take down the biggest mage I could see XD

SamVimes
22-08-2010, 16:32
and as I told you, the only spell the opponent have to worry about dispelling is the one to recover wounds,

It's not a spell. It's the power boost of the lore of life whenever you cast any spell.

Y'know, like how shadow can switch characters places and fire gives a bonus to cast further fire spells on a target?

SiNNiX
22-08-2010, 16:44
Second: If an opponent isn't playing Teclis or crazy anti-magic dwarves, it is impossible to deal with the LM magic phase.

I'm a little disappointed in you, cybercaine. You forgot DE (Ring of Complete Unfair Cheese.. I mean Hotek).

GenerationTerrorist
22-08-2010, 16:46
I don't think there is anything wrong/broken with your list. Lizards are just a very reliable army with solid Core/Special troops and very useful (but not, IMHO, overpowered) Lords and Heroes.

If it is any consolation, I have beaten a very similar Lizards list with both my WoC and HE armies. They were very close and violent (on the table, not between players!) games, though, and both were enjoyable for my opponent and myself. There was literally a few dice rolls in it - If I had failed save/ward on X then I would have lost for sure.

theunwantedbeing
22-08-2010, 16:48
I'm a little disappointed in you, cybercaine. You forgot DE (Ring of Complete Unfair Cheese.. I mean Hotek).

It's been nerfed to buggery now, it's largely usless as a result.

night2501
22-08-2010, 17:00
It's not a spell. It's the power boost of the lore of life whenever you cast any spell.

Y'know, like how shadow can switch characters places and fire gives a bonus to cast further fire spells on a target?

to be precise there are the spell to recover wounds/models, and the special ability of the lore that let a model recover wounds, I was referring to the spell so he can not rise again the dead saurus...

SamVimes
22-08-2010, 17:35
Ah, got you. I thought you were talking about recovering wounds on the Steggadon.

SiNNiX
22-08-2010, 18:31
It's been nerfed to buggery now, it's largely usless as a result.

YESSSSSSSSSSSSS! OOOOOOOOH HAPPYYYYYYYYY DAAAAAAAAAY!!!!!!!!!!!! :D:D:D:D:D:D

Take that, Dark Elves!!! EAT IT!

Sorry, everyone. I'm not normally like that. It's funny because my local group would always have the Ring of Hotek discussion, and decided that it should either cost 55 points (so only a Lord could take it), or it should be made to only affect wizards casting spells within 12". Looks like GW telepathically heard our cries.

Heimagoblin
25-08-2010, 12:09
As promised, a second battle report coming up. Unfortunatly as I am on holiday and only getting internet because i'm in an internet cafe, it will have to be a game I have already played. I thought I could do a game against my friends tomb kings.

Deployment

-------------------------------catapult-archers---------------------------
chariots-scorp--giant----archers--guard------------scorp----------chariots
--ruins---------------------------------sphinx-------------woods---------
-cskinks---------------------------------cskinks-------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
--woods----------------------pond---------------------------------------
--skinks--sarus--sarus--steg---skinks----------templeguard----------skinks--

This was one of my first games with this list, as you can probably by the lack of my 2nd steg and the stupid placement of the templeguard with slann. My list and his roughly below.

Slann, steals 6's, rumination, cupped hands, BSB
20 templeguard, standard, musucian
EOTG, dispel scroll
18 sarus with spears (the ones furthest right), standard, musucian
Scar Veteran with crown of command with spear sarus
18 sarus, standard musucian
10 skinks
10 skinks
10 skinks
5 chamolean skinks
5 chamolean skinks

Tomb king, flail of skulls, 4+ ward
Hierophant with collar of shapesh
Liche with fireball and dispel scroll
24 Tomb Guard, standard of +1 to hit
Bone giant
Tomb scorpian
Tomb scorpian
3 chariots, standard
3 chariots, standard
20 archers
20 archers
Catapult

He uses his vanguard moves to advance his chariots on either side.

Heimagoblin
25-08-2010, 12:32
1st Turn

He gets the first turn and stays relitivley still, with the exception of his bone giant, scopian and both units of chariots which advance. Magic sees his achers kill 1 unit of chamolean skinks and his catapult fail to hurt the stegadon because of scatter. Shooting sees the catapult misfire and not shoot for next turn and a fireball killing 3 skinks.

My turn consits of me advancing with everything. Magic draws out his dispel scroll but that is it. Shooting kills puts wounds on each chariot unit. Overall, I was starting to realise how big a blunder putting the templguard on the flank was.

2nd Turn

The two chariot units on each flank charge their respective skink units, who stand and shoot an knock off a chariot from the unit on the right before being charged and predictably wiped out. The archers turn and kill the second unit of chamolean skinks. The bone giant and scropian accompnying advance menacingly. Magic is fairly inefectual with another few skinks from the centeral unit being roasted due to fireball.

My turn sees the unit of sarus on the left charge the chariot unit who murdered the skinks and the rest of the line move to cover there flank. The templeguard advance towards the scorpian and the chariots on the right. Magic is disastorous for the lizards (stupid slann, thats not the way its supposed to work!) who decides to irresistable force on wait for it, shield of thorns! Brilliant. Clearly upset at my dissaproval, he decides to inflict str 6 hits on all templeguard around him escept himself, thorougly ending 10 templeguard. The sarus on the left kill the chariots and reform to face the bonegiant bearing down on them.

Heimagoblin
25-08-2010, 12:50
-------------------------------catapult-archers---------------------------
---------scorp--giant----archers--guard------------scorp-----------------
--ruins---------------------------------sphinx-------------woods---------
-----------------------------------------------------------------chariots-
-------sarus ---steg-----sarus------------------------templeguard--------
--woods--------------------------pond------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Turn 3
(Those map things are a bloody pain to put together!) It isn't quite right so if some charges look slightly off then its the map and not my me or my opponent.

The giant and the scorpian charge the sarus on the left and the chariots and the scorpian, seeing an oppurtunity to finish the templeguard, both charge. The tomb king and guard hold back, and the liche priests retreat to the archer unit at the back. Magic draws out my dispel scroll and shooting does nothing, with the catapult misfiring again.

Combat sees 7 templeguard dying, leaving me with just 3! The sarus on the left kill the scorpian but lose the combat, but due to being stubborn thanks to crown of command from the scar veteran. Its not looking to rosy for the lizards!

My turn sees the sarus on the right charge the archers, wiping them out. The EOTG charges the flank of the giant. Magic is regrowth being dispelled and the slann desperatly giving his templeguard 4+ regen and toughness 8! Between the scar veteran (who is later assasinated by the bone giant), steg, buring alingment and the sarus, the bone giant is destroyed and both the sarus and the steg overun towards the bord edge on the left. The templguard kill the scorpian but the chariots sneak a few sneaky attacks on the slann, dealing a wound. The templeguard reform to face them. The sarus in the centre reform to face the tomb guard.

Heimagoblin
25-08-2010, 12:55
Times up so I will have to leave you with this teaser. The lizardmen are about 700 points behind, and not looking like they are going to get any more victory points so how, in 1 turn are they going to reduce the kings to being 200 points behind them? See you in 3 days!

decker_cky
25-08-2010, 16:37
Ah, got you. I thought you were talking about recovering wounds on the Steggadon.

I was shocked with the empire player that there wasn't a dead stegadon turn 1. Not the biggest threat, but the most easily dealt with. 1 cannon should kill the priest, and if that fails, a second will get the job done. Once he's gone, the engine is no more. Any army with stone throwers or cannons should be doing this.

Why is the lizardmen player casting so freely against all these players? Yes...he gets extra power dice, but getting 4 spells off against empire is pretty impressive (most empire players I've played have 3-4 bonus dispel dice and +4 to dispel, which should limit a slann to 2 spells or one big spell). Other players should still be able to stop throne which makes everything else so much worse.

With DE, ring of hotek is not nerfed. Now you put it on a pegasus master and it punishes the opponent without punishing the DE player.

If you're 25-0, have people not tested things like the frog scroll for a 1/3 chance of negating your slann for a turn or two? Has nobody blasted purple sun down your flank? Or hit your temple guard with dwellers below for a 50/50 shot at removing your slann?

First things first...you banned the power scroll which isn't as broken as any other number of things....including a slann with rumination and lore of life. Second, people need to take some different things. Winning 80-90% is damn good. 100% and frankly, I'm not believing. Either you roll stupidly well (your spell casting seems to imply that), or your opponents aren't adapting (their lists seem to imply that is at least a factor).

SiNNiX
25-08-2010, 16:59
Like I said, if he needs a loss, fly down to Texas and play my Dwarfs. :)

sulla
25-08-2010, 17:34
With DE, ring of hotek is not nerfed. Now you put it on a pegasus master and it punishes the opponent without punishing the DE player.

The ring is nerfed in that it doesn't stop the spell being cast. Combined with the cupped hands, the ring of hotek generally just means one extra miscast on one of your sorceresses.

Having said that, a hero on a peg is not an inherently bad unit vs lizards (as long as you keep your soerceresses out on a flank for a bit). Especially if he has the shield of ghrond or cloak of hag graef. It's just that he's not as good value as a BSB or a peg sorceress with power scroll and purple sun. As long as you have fit those guys into the list it really comes down to whether he is worth the 200-ish points he costs compared to another hydra/2 chariots/extra elite unit.

poboom
25-08-2010, 21:06
I can hardly wait! If you win this one as well your army really is too good and I'll probably sell all my empire minis and buy the same army as you :D:D! I'm sure others will feel the same way as me. :cool:

My prediction is that you'll cast some awesome regrowth (rolling 6) on your templeguard with IF and what not going on, killing all the tomb guards but leaving your guys totally unharmed :chrome: Once again pulling victory from the clammy hands of defeat!


Times up so I will have to leave you with this teaser. The lizardmen are about 700 points behind, and not looking like they are going to get any more victory points so how, in 1 turn are they going to reduce the kings to being 200 points behind them? See you in 3 days!

Enigmatik1
25-08-2010, 22:52
Like I said, if he needs a loss, fly down to Texas and play my Dwarfs. :)

He has to get through this solid TK list first...then he can come to Texas. :D

SiNNiX
26-08-2010, 05:21
I can hardly wait! If you win this one as well your army really is too good and I'll probably sell all my empire minis and buy the same army as you :D:D! I'm sure others will feel the same way as me. :cool:

My prediction is that you'll cast some awesome regrowth (rolling 6) on your templeguard with IF and what not going on, killing all the tomb guards but leaving your guys totally unharmed :chrome: Once again pulling victory from the clammy hands of defeat!

It's hard to tell if you're being sarcastic... lol.


He has to get through this solid TK list first...then he can come to Texas. :D

Is it your list? GO TK!

But seriously LM player, if you play a Dwarf player who has experience and knows his way around corner artillery strategy, you'll probably get a loss. After a few other local Dwarf players have asked me how I handle LM players and have sinced had [adopts Borat voice] GREAT SUCCESS! The same should apply closely to Empire. Excellent artillery lists in general are LM's worst nightmare, as long as they have a plan for your remaining troops that crash into their ranks. If so, there's very little you can do (especially against Dwarfs since Slann isn't very successful against them).

Enigmatik1
26-08-2010, 13:23
Is it your list? GO TK!

Nah, it's not. It's a good list though for what we can put on the table and the guy seems to know what he's doing. :)

PeG
26-08-2010, 13:49
[QUOTE=cybercaine;4929032]
Second: If an opponent isn't playing Teclis or crazy anti-magic dwarves, it is impossible to deal with the LM magic phase. Focused Rumination is that good. I don't even mind rolling 3 dice or 2 dice. Guess what? 2 dice turns into 2 spells that my opponent cannot generally dispel wit his 1 die. If I roll 3 that's generally 3 spells of which my opponent can try to stop one. And if I happen to roll a large amount of dice. . . not only does the slaan get to cast a bunch of spells but after he's done my skink priest get's a shot at casting some spells. I don't have to get every spell off. . . but I just need to get a spell or two off. In my experience, LM have the advantage.

QUOTE]

This shouldnt really be happening. Definitely not against empire and also not against several other armies. Empire should be able to bring 3-4 bonus dispel dice meaning that an average roll of 7 for winds of magic should result in 7 PD and 7-8 DD. In addition rolling only one dice + the free one is a high risk unless you roll really well. Trying to Cast anything with a higher casting value then 8-9 with only 2 dice (1 + free dice) gives you a high risk for not casting anything else this turn.


If you roll 2 as in your example you have up to 4 PD (with the free ones) and your opponent doesnt have 1 but 4-5 DD meaning that he can either rather safely shut one of them down or try to dispel both of them.

Add a couple of scrolls and dispels using his PD in his turn and he should be able to keep your buffs at a level he can handle.

other armies can steal PD and make them into dispel dice, add dispel dice to the pool, bring 1 scroll / caster (daemon equivalent) etc

As for casting against Lizards, yes losing 6s hurt but the casting values for many of the spells are not that high (average roll should be 2,5/ dice) and by either using 6 dice or by adding powerdice from other sources (powerstones, warpstones etc) they should be able to cast enough spells to have a shot at killing the Slann or other key units (death magic, dwellers, purple sun etc)

Also if you change the point level in either direction Slann becomes less powerful. Play below 2k and he can really bring all his toys and if you go significantly above ie 3k or above magic becomes less important due to the lack of increased number of PD as well as the possibility to take even more magic defence.

Heimagoblin
28-08-2010, 11:15
As promised, here goes..

Well, what happned as the slann irrisistable forced dwellers below on the unit of archers killing the high liche priest and the hierophant in 1 go. Everything except the units in the 12 inch bubble around the king crumbled to nothing. The game basically decended into the lizards remaing units hiding from the tomb guard and the vengeful king. So we totted up victory points that gents, is how the army earned its first and only draw.

chamelion 6
28-08-2010, 15:10
Offer a handicap to the other player...

Say 500 points..........

macdaddy_o
28-08-2010, 15:31
A I was going to say IF dwellers. That's how I turned my loss into a massacre victory against dark elves. :)

Peg, I don't understand your logic at all. On one hand you say rolling 2 dice to cast spells from their lore of life that need an 8 of risky, even though it has better than a 90% chance of success. On the other hand you down play becalming, saying that 6 dice wil get through it, roll two sixes, pretty likely at 1/3 chance, and it its unlikely the spell will go off.

poboom
28-08-2010, 16:15
As promised, here goes..

Well, what happned as the slann irrisistable forced dwellers below on the unit of archers killing the high liche priest and the hierophant in 1 go. Everything except the units in the 12 inch bubble around the king crumbled to nothing. The game basically decended into the lizards remaing units hiding from the tomb guard and the vengeful king. So we totted up victory points that gents, is how the army earned its first and only draw.

That's it! My Empire is going on eBay. Link coming soon!