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kris.sherriff
26-08-2010, 21:24
Let my just start off by saying that I know that the 8th ed lore spells have gotten a lot better and the bigger spells can really put the hurt on a unit.

I also wanted to add that I don't play a magic heavy army, at the minute I am running my Dark Elves with 1 level 3 with Dispel Scroll, Life Taker and Pendant using Dark Magic and I have found magic to be a good but nothing stupidly powerful.

Now this may be because I am not fielding any death-star hoard units in my list so my eggs are well and truly spread around and even if one of my units does take a hit from one of these spells it is unlikely to actually kill the entire unit and so on its own will not actually gain any victory points.

Sure it can cripple a unit but so can a mortar or some concentrated shooting or a round of combat with some of the monster hoard units that without the bigger spells you have nothing to combat them.

I think my point is that in an edition that encourages larger units and no longer gives half points or anything for fleeing units I think that these spells are in there to give people who plan on fielding the stupidly good units somthing to think about. I am thinking about the Slann in Temple Guard bunkers or the Khorne Marauder Hordes with Great weapons.

I am the first to admit that it is frustrating when the Game turns on one spell cast with irrisistable force, especialy when you have played a good game and not really made any mistakes but equaly it is frustrating when you turn up and are faced with a unit that you have no hope of beating in combat unless you wear it down with something.

It seems that if your beat someone in combat with your twin stegs and temple guard bunker and life slann then you are a tactical genius but if your win comes from crippling someones eggs in basket unit and mopping it up than you have only won through getting that spell through than you are just lucky.

So is magic so bad that it is deserving of the rush to comp the bigger spells out of the game?

Cheers
Kris

P.S. I didn't include a poll as the options always end up weighted one way or the other and I think that for the moment at least that both sides of this debate should have valid points and I look forward to reading them.

SiNNiX
26-08-2010, 21:30
The great thing about Magic (much less than the other phases) in 8th Edition is that they're all equally important, and all made to prepare yourself for dealing with the dreaded combat phase.

Magic and Shooting are effective and devastating enough now that you need to figure out which units you don't want to go into combat with at their full potential, and then whittle these units down with Magic and Shooting. Magic, much like artillery, has its ups and downs. Its ups are way up (getting off a 15+ spell that devours an entire scary unit), and its downs are way down (your wizard either failing and cast and thus not being able to cast for the remainder of the turn, or casting with IF and blowing its own head off).

To answer your question, 8th Edition magic is definitely not "all that", but it certainly can drastically tip the odds of the game in your favor. Once again, though, this is ultimately a game of dice rolls, and there are equal amounts of pros and cons with casting lots of magic.

madden
26-08-2010, 21:36
No it not over the top at all, as you can dispel most spells easily (if no IF) you just have to think about which ones to stop as the dd and pd are going to be fairly close most of the time so to me it just adds extra tactical desicions into the game.
And yes it can be a pain if a mega spell nukes your unit it can and will happen now and then but redundancy is key so not all your eggs in one basket is best.

Hjiryon
26-08-2010, 21:39
Here's a suggestion:
Stop using Dark Magic. No, really.

For a few games, try fielding the same level 3, drop the dispel scroll and give her a sacrificial dagger, and go for shadow or death magic instead (shadow is probably best, since Death is relatively short-ranged and you'll be camping in a spearelf unit).

You should see the difference quite clearly within the span of a few games.

I play Wood Elves; as of right now, my level 4 mage singlehandedly turns the tide of a game based on when I manage to get a spell like Flesh to Stone off on the correct unit (of Dryads, more often than not; t6 (or 8!) makes them extremely nasty).

SiNNiX
26-08-2010, 21:42
Here's a suggestion:
Stop using Dark Magic. No, really.

For a few games, try fielding the same level 3, drop the dispel scroll and give her a sacrificial dagger, and go for shadow or death magic instead (shadow is probably best, since Death is relatively short-ranged and you'll be camping in a spearelf unit).

You should see the difference quite clearly within the span of a few games.

I play Wood Elves; as of right now, my level 4 mage singlehandedly turns the tide of a game based on when I manage to get a spell like Flesh to Stone off on the correct unit (of Dryads, more often than not; t6 (or 8!) makes them extremely nasty).

UHgreed!!! Lore of Shadow is very nasty with DE.

A WE using LoLife? I'll believe it when I see it!

Sarcasm Rules. :)

Loopstah
26-08-2010, 21:45
I've found that you rarely get anything off unless you roll IF as it's much harder to get a guaranteed bucket of power dice and even then your opponent can get a good % of those as dispel dice so a lot of spells get countered.

Then when you do get IF your mage forgets all their spells, blows up a unit or takes out all your other wizards.

I do like the fact that magic is a lot less reliable though it makes it more fluffy and the games less predictable.

Kevlar
26-08-2010, 22:19
Magic seems rather tame to me. A lot tamer than the single die IoN spam lists, plus half a dozen bound spells I had to go against in 7th.

Sure there is a chance of getting off 1 spell per game with the power scroll that your opponent can not counter. But unless you have 500+ points tied up in a single unit it won't really do much.

You would have to be an idiot to have more than two units get hit by Purple sun. I'm sorry I just do not see the overpowered magic, even when you roll box cars for the power dice.

Gatsby
26-08-2010, 22:44
Magic seems rather tame to me. A lot tamer than the single die IoN spam lists, plus half a dozen bound spells I had to go against in 7th.

so the appropriate answer to IoN is to completely nerf an entire army to uselessness or exclusively cheese builds.


Sure there is a chance of getting off 1 spell per game with the power scroll that your opponent can not counter. But unless you have 500+ points tied up in a single unit it won't really do much.

you've never faced a suicide Wizard of death have you?


You would have to be an idiot to have more than two units get hit by Purple sun. I'm sorry I just do not see the overpowered magic, even when you roll box cars for the power dice.

you only need to get hit once.

in response to the OP: It depends on the build, you can tailor your list down to not use it, but there are builds that take full advantage of magic and can easily wipe units if not armys in one shot.

SiNNiX
26-08-2010, 23:35
Yeah, the one nerf to magic I absolutely don't care for is the nerf to bound spells. Now they're next to pointless. It'd be different if they generated and used their own seperate "bound spell pool", but them using up your PD is just a huge waste.

Kevlar
27-08-2010, 01:41
Yeah, the one nerf to magic I absolutely don't care for is the nerf to bound spells. Now they're next to pointless. It'd be different if they generated and used their own seperate "bound spell pool", but them using up your PD is just a huge waste.

I like the change. It gives you the ability to get some spells without rolling, but it doesn't lead to an overpowered magic phase with half a dozen bound items plus a dozen or more power dice.

As for the suicide wizard, so what? unless you built a poor list with all your eggs in one basket a suicide wizard shouldn't be able to do more than kill at most 1/2 a unit. Then he is dead. A well placed mortar or warp fire thrower shot should easily kill half a unit too. Why aren't people crying about them?

Magic in 8th is very anti death star. If you are still using your 7th ed death star then you deserve what you get when it gets hit by lurkers or purple sun. Spread your points out better and spread your units out better and you won't be wiped out with a single power scroll.

jamano
27-08-2010, 01:43
The biggest problem with the change to bound is that the point cost on all bound items is wrong now, you would pay extra points to have a higher bound level, which now means you pay more to spend more dice.

SiNNiX
27-08-2010, 02:43
The biggest problem with the change to bound is that the point cost on all bound items is wrong now, you would pay extra points to have a higher bound level, which now means you pay more to spend more dice.

Basically...

Maoriboy007
27-08-2010, 04:44
Yeah, the one nerf to magic I absolutely don't care for is the nerf to bound spells. Now they're next to pointless. It'd be different if they generated and used their own seperate "bound spell pool", but them using up your PD is just a huge waste.

Its more that the level of the bound spell is the target for the spell rather than the bonus, it really retards expensive 5+ bound spells and one use only items.

sulla
27-08-2010, 06:28
Its more that the level of the bound spell is the target for the spell rather than the bonus, it really retards expensive 5+ bound spells and one use only items.Hardly. Being able to throw a bunch of dice at those one dice items means you can force them through, instead of not being able to cast them because of a single dd in the enemy hand. Even 5+ bounds just need an extra dice thrown vs a 3+. Bounds work just fine now. The only difference is they are either/or with normal spells now, not added to make an overwhelming magic phase for the few armies blessed with a few of them.

jamano
27-08-2010, 13:54
Hardly. Being able to throw a bunch of dice at those one dice items means you can force them through, instead of not being able to cast them because of a single dd in the enemy hand. Even 5+ bounds just need an extra dice thrown vs a 3+. Bounds work just fine now. The only difference is they are either/or with normal spells now, not added to make an overwhelming magic phase for the few armies blessed with a few of them.

instead they stunt the magic phase of armies who couldn't get an overwhelming magic phase, some armies dont have much if any ways to add more power dice, so that one extra die to cast on a 5 is a big deal, especially for one use items.

Lord of Divine Slaughter
27-08-2010, 14:05
In my games, magic has been a looming threat, an ominous presence with a promise of ultimate crushing victory and ability to turn the tide.

Beyond this, it has accomplished next to nothing :p

PeG
27-08-2010, 14:22
I can see two problems with the mega spells and one of them is restricted to one particular spell.

1) Purple Sun is simply to much when used by armies that can reliably make a build for them and cast the powered up version. One of the variants that have been discussed on Warseer is a flying vampire with powerscroll and forbidden lore but there are some other combos as well.

2) the no saves of any kind part that makes it impossible to protect valuble characters or units. I agree that you shouldnt put all your eggs in one basket but if you want to use a major monster in your list this is pretty much what you are doing. Not doing this would mean no greater daemons, no dragons, no larger units of any expensive infantry such as for example eternal guards, temple guard etc. Slann can make the enemy ignore 6s but he dies really fast to some of these spells. I have a friend who plays VC and he doesnt really have a way of protecting his general which is essential for VC and TK etc.

The only ones that can really protect themselves are HE using their 60 point banner.

Also it depends a lot on the size of the game played since the number of PD for most armies will be the same at 500 points and at 5k

Peril
27-08-2010, 17:30
As for the suicide wizard, so what? unless you built a poor list with all your eggs in one basket a suicide wizard shouldn't be able to do more than kill at most 1/2 a unit. Then he is dead. A well placed mortar or warp fire thrower shot should easily kill half a unit too. Why aren't people crying about them?

Magic in 8th is very anti death star. If you are still using your 7th ed death star then you deserve what you get when it gets hit by lurkers or purple sun. Spread your points out better and spread your units out better and you won't be wiped out with a single power scroll.

Do you understand how Purple Sun works? "Spread your units out" is ridiculous advice. A non-braindead opponent with a mobile wizard will be able to hit 2/3 of your army easily unless you abandon any semblance of a battle line (and if you do that, good luck). If you play Lizards, Dwarves, Ogres, Orcs, VC, TK one spell will utterly cripple your army whether you balance your points out or not.

I don't have a problem with the spell though - just the Power Scroll. At least if the Sun is dispellable you have an opportunity to do SOMETHING about it.

Commissar Vaughn
27-08-2010, 17:46
Erm...with a chequerboard deployment I dont lose any coherency and a magic munchkin will only hit two units at best, maybe graze a third... that aint 2/3rds of my army. And he wont hit any wizards under that either...cos they aint in units.

If I get to deploy second I can see where the silly hocus pocus merchant is and deploy appropriatly: an Oblique line or Echelon in the right place will mean he can only hit one...

One peice of advice Id give anyone in 8th ed: Spread your regiments out, spread your fighting power across your regiments/characters, dont put all your eggs in one basket.

I havnt seen anyone use the scroll yet, cant think of many people who would be daft enough to risk such an expensive model on a tactic that could go horribly wrong, and even if go's ok, leaves him in such a bad position.

Maoriboy007
27-08-2010, 21:34
Hardly. Being able to throw a bunch of dice at those one dice items means you can force them through, instead of not being able to cast them because of a single dd in the enemy hand. Even 5+ bounds just need an extra dice thrown vs a 3+. Bounds work just fine now. The only difference is they are either/or with normal spells now, not added to make an overwhelming magic phase for the few armies blessed with a few of them.

I don't mind having to use spell dice for them, its more that the power level should be added to the roll, not be reached by the roll.

sulla
28-08-2010, 21:55
I don't mind having to use spell dice for them, its more that the power level should be added to the roll, not be reached by the roll.Why? Now the bound spell power level represents how sticky the switch on your wand is. The higher the level, the more magical oil you need to flick it, the lower, the less you need. If it's important, just throw 6 dice at it. If it's not, use one or two. Or use your dice resources on a more appropriate spell for the situation.

Kevlar
28-08-2010, 21:58
I don't mind having to use spell dice for them, its more that the power level should be added to the roll, not be reached by the roll.

I don't know, more powerful bound items cost more, and are subsequently harder to get off. I don't see a problem there.

Korraz
28-08-2010, 22:43
DE with Shadow equals total-frikkin-domination over the magic phase, thanks to PoD.

DaemonReign
28-08-2010, 23:01
DE with Shadow equals total-frikkin-domination over the magic phase, thanks to PoD.

Yeah well DE dominates every phase of the game now so at least there's concistency..

On Bound Spells - I think GW's rationale was something like "if you want to make an omelette you gotta break a few eggs". It's a shame. People are right about them being incorrectly priced now. Actually, they should just work exactly like they did in 7th Ed. Period.

Oh well.. All in all I prefer 7th Ed magic over 8th. (The only thing, actually, that I down right prefer about 7th so far) The Lores are more fun now. The rest is just kinda "meh".. Especially that ridiculous dice-cap. Thank god for house-rules.

decker_cky
28-08-2010, 23:25
DE with Shadow equals total-frikkin-domination over the magic phase, thanks to PoD.

And yet the frog scroll provides a simple solution to that if DE ever become a real powerhouse because of that. You cast PoD, I make you a frog, and you die.

Nkari
28-08-2010, 23:52
In my experiance both from playing and watching alot of games, magic is very hit or miss.. either its very good, or it does nothing..

wich is nice, but on the other hand I would have wished for a middle road.. =)

Maoriboy007
29-08-2010, 10:38
Why? Now the bound spell power level represents how sticky the switch on your wand is. The higher the level, the more magical oil you need to flick it, the lower, the less you need. If it's important, just throw 6 dice at it. If it's not, use one or two. Or use your dice resources on a more appropriate spell for the situation.

The premise is that a bound item has the magic power built into it, much like an actual wizard, specifically aimed at producing an effect.
And its a balance thing, many bound spell suddenly became worthless, some still have thier uses , but others are incorrectly priced now, especially the OUO or 4-5+ bound spells.

hacksaaw
29-08-2010, 12:33
Ok, let me get this right with the lizards in a 12 inch deployment zone, im suppose to checkerboard or oblique deploy my army. with units that pretty much have to be large inorder to have the saurus survive with enough attacks back to perhaps win the combat.

aint going to happen that often. and its also pit of shades. and the bull crap about not putting all your eggs into one basket, some armies dont have much of a choice a Slann in a unit of temple guard.

the sheer ability of the DE to bitch slap low initiative armies with magic is amazing and is near unstopable and near impossible to prevent.

madden
29-08-2010, 12:35
Maybe but the 5+ cast stone of spite could kill every wizard within range if they have an arcane item on them I killed teclis and 2 other elf mages with it (it is 1d6 s4 hits per item carried) and cheap so thowing dice for it is fair and to be honest I like bound items as they give me magic without the risk of nuking my own units.

sulla
29-08-2010, 20:31
Yeah well DE dominates every phase of the game now so at least there's concistency..

.

I'm guessing you don't play vs many other armies if you think DE dominate every phase in 8th.

Dark Aly
29-08-2010, 20:49
I don't know, more powerful bound items cost more, and are subsequently harder to get off. I don't see a problem there. (emphasis mine)

that is because they often have more powerful effects. the cost with regards to the power level of the bound item is insisnificant compared to the cost of the bound spell item with regards to it's effect.

kramplarv
29-08-2010, 21:03
The bad things about 8th magic is 1: POwer scroll. 2: Miscast-procedur.

1: ban :p
2: I would rather have it the 7th ed way. Now the miscast-table looks like a small kitten compared to the raging lion it were in 7th. =/ that sucks.

jamano
29-08-2010, 21:29
The bad things about 8th magic is 1: POwer scroll. 2: Miscast-procedur.

1: ban :p
2: I would rather have it the 7th ed way. Now the miscast-table looks like a small kitten compared to the raging lion it were in 7th. =/ that sucks.
I think the miscast table in 8th is twice as bad as 7th, the table is much smaller so the horrible results come up more often, and it's all S10 hits so theres no "good" result on there.

Maoriboy007
29-08-2010, 22:07
Yeah well DE dominates every phase of the game now so at least there's concistency..Actually it fairer to say that DE can choose dominate one, maybe two phases in the game , and probably compete equally in the rest.


The bad things about 8th magic is 1: POwer scroll. 2: Miscast-procedur.

1: ban :p
2: I would rather have it the 7th ed way. Now the miscast-table looks like a small kitten compared to the raging lion it were in 7th. =/ that sucks.

The misconception about magic in 7th was that somehow the casting player has it easier than the dispelling player. Actually the odds were all against the caster, the only real way to compensate was to go nuts in magic spending, thus forcing the magic through the obstacles of magic defence and natural magic failure. Certain unsavoury magical abilities and items designed to compensate for magical failure compounded this perception.
Now magic is fairly close to being what it should be, at least a player should be able to get off at least one spell to compensate the investment in points. And the results should reflect the cost and risk the casting player takes in order to use magic.
Its just the complete army/unit decimation spells that ruin the phase IMO.

Korraz
29-08-2010, 22:10
No, it's the powerscroll. Even with 6 dice it's 1/36 to get irresistable.

theunwantedbeing
29-08-2010, 22:14
Its just the complete army/unit decimation spells that ruin the phase IMO.

Indeed, I hate having my mage get dwellered along with half of her unit.
Especially when its cast irresistably and the other guy doesn't even have the decency to explode :shifty:

itcamefromthedeep
30-08-2010, 03:35
No, it's the powerscroll. Even with 6 dice it's 1/36 to get irresistable.
I count 319/324 to get an Irresistible Force on 6 dice.

So, that's a 5/324 of failing to get IF, or just under 1/65. A safe bet, in other words.

---

Some games magic is the deciding factor. In other games, it won't be. It decides games more often now. Your mileage may vary.

cybercaine
30-08-2010, 07:14
aint going to happen that often. and its also pit of shades. and the bull crap about not putting all your eggs into one basket, some armies dont have much of a choice a Slann in a unit of temple guard.


First: It is highly unlikely that a Slann will die to PSoX or PoS cast by a suicide mage. It can happen. . . but it's unlikely. Imagine the confluence of rolls that have to happen in a game for this to happen. You have to get the spell you need (some can get it automatically). You need to move your mage into a risky position before you have any idea of how many power dice you are going to get in the phase. I mean, each die you get less than 6 significantly reduces your chance of IF. So that alone can be a risky proposition. Then, you have to cast the spell while getting doubles that CANNOT be 6's as they are removed from the pool. This also reduces the risk of IF even with the powerscroll. Then, you have to not scatter the PoS or roll enough distance on your PSoX. Then, you have to have the toad fail his LoS. And finally, he has to fail the characteristic test of which he only does 66% of the time when not debuffed. Like I said, it can happen. . . but it certainly isn't likely. And if it does, oh well. Your opponent got especially lucky when he tried to shoot the moon on a ridiculous chance. I've had PoS cast on my Slann now many times by Teclis and he's yet to die. I've lost TG. . . I think maybe 9 is the most I've lost with a single cast. Oh well. . . they come back now.

Lord of Divine Slaughter
30-08-2010, 08:53
There are only two things wrong with magic in 8th.:

A) Fire is still crap - my VC lord still miss his old sword of Rhuin though :p

B) The powerscroll.

Beyond this, magic has gotten its own place in the game mechanics. Its mainly a contest about how to time your casting and choosing the one spell, you want through in a given magic phase.

Dwellers and the Sun get all the attention, but most other spells can have equally dangerous effects, though a bit more subtle. How about troops with great weapons suddenly gaining ASF and an extra attack? Or that Arch Lector on his little pride parade float suddenly getting a -3 T and getting hammered by the ensuing shooting. They might not directly turn the battle, but the synergy effects can be equally devastating.

Then there is the whine about the no save thing, but people fail to notice that you have to take a stat test, meaning that you already 'bought' your defense :)

rocdocta
30-08-2010, 09:10
well magic in 8th seems to suit the rest of the game now. zero thought required. zero intelligence. zero real tactics. i play ogres and the amount of purple suns that get thrown around with no way to stop it is pathetic. 3+ and a 3 wound model is dead. but it gets better. on a 5+ get a free power dice. my bull horde gets hit and lose 8 bulls which gives 24 rolls to get pow dice back.

dont go horde! you say...but hang on, since it is init order even when charging, if you dont go horde...you get ripped up in combat.

i hear some idiots saying how easy it is to just stagger your army. well fraid to say that if i dont keep my init2 ld7 bulls near my general, they will be fleeing/unable to reform etc much at all during the game. if i do spread them out, well then the army is taken apart piecemeal as you are unable to apply a focused force in one place. so its not as simple as saying checkerboard.

how about just admitting that vs most armies, cheap crutche lores like death are over powered and just boost the ego of WAAC players. compare it to gut magic. compare any of the new lores to gut magic.

Lord of Divine Slaughter
30-08-2010, 09:24
how about just admitting that vs most armies, cheap crutche lores like death are over powered and just boost the ego of WAAC players.

True - especially, when you're on the receiving end - but complaining about the basic rules from a specific armys point of view isn't fair. Quite a few armies aren't really up to date for 8th., but most have become more 'competitive'. Ban the powerscroll from your games, and you'll see a lot less purple suns floating about, as it only becomes a problem, when it becomes reliable.

You will always have fluke games that are decided by turn 2, this happens when the dice decide the game, but if you do a little work to mitigate this, then you'll have loads of fun in the magic phase :)

jamano
30-08-2010, 13:27
No, it's the powerscroll. Even with 6 dice it's 1/36 to get irresistable.

1/36 is the odds for 2 sixes on 2 dice, with 6 dice its something close to 50%

Dark Aly
30-08-2010, 13:32
and with the powerscroll it's any double, not just 6's.

jamano
30-08-2010, 13:39
and with the powerscroll it's any double, not just 6's.

Yeah but he was suggesting that if you removed the power scroll, the magic phase would be fine because irresistible is rare on 6 dice without it.

Dark Aly
30-08-2010, 13:52
i see. a magic heavy army is no worse than a gunline and just as much fun to play against or with, i.e not at all.

kris.sherriff
30-08-2010, 14:29
1/36 is the odds for 2 sixes on 2 dice, with 6 dice its something close to 50%

It is closer but not actually 50%. Try 26.32%.

With the power scroll it is a 90.72% chance to roll any double on 6 dice. So you should get it through irresistibly then you use the 35 point one use only item. It is not what I would waste my Arcane item allowance on but feel free.

So for the sake of argument there is a vampire player with a vamp who know the lore (saves having to go through the formality of rolling and actually getting Purple Sun) has riding a hell steed cos he has to be able to get in to position because the spell is only ever cast down the flank of an army apparently and obviously has the power scroll as well. With nothing else he is a 190 points.

He cant join units so there is a 50% chance in him not getting the first turn where you can try to kill the just shy of 200 point naked ass vampire before he purple suns your army off the table.

Assuming that you really suck at rolling dice and are forced to go second he gets to fly his vamp 20" somewhere, now unless you managed to set up with your army sideways or something he should not be able to move to a flank to shoot down the line so it will be coming at an angle of some sort but to give the vamp even more of a chance we will say that he flew just off to the side of one of your bigger units with slann so that a result of a 2 (6") should still land the template on the unit.

We now get to the magic phase he has to roll 6 or more to be able to roll 6 dice so that has a 72.22% chance of happening. Now assuming that purple sun is the first spell he casts and that he does not try to do anything else as you could cube of darkness it and end the magic phase on him we move on to the casting attempt.

You didn't take a becalming Slann so we are on to the almost automatic casting of purple sun at 90.72% so the spell is off. Now there is a 16.67% chance of him going on to roll a misfire and centring the template on himself and it only scattering D6" so that shouldn't reach you if that happens but it is just not your day and he rolls a respectable 8 (24") and the sun goes rolling through the temple guard and gets most of the unit next to them due to the angle, ah well, surly its Game Over.

Well there is only a 0.03% chance of the Temple guard actually being wiped out and so at this moment of the game are not giving up any points. There is a 83.33% chance of you Slann passing his look out sir roll and then if he fails there is a 33.33% chance of him actually passing the test.

Of course if those odds of not actually giving up any points to a turn one purple sun suicide wizard aren't good enough for you you could always give your Slann a potion of speed to give him an 83.33% chance of passing the test but that seems like overkill to me. And if you can't deal with a T4 2wound model with next to no protection who is 4" from your battle line than you deserve to get it cast at you again.

Kris

hacksaaw
30-08-2010, 14:34
Its actually more than just the powerscroll, against a DE army with where he will heavilly outnumber you on dice. he is going to have a massive ability to get the spell off or at the very least use all his other spells to great effect while you save your dice for the one spell that can win the game if he is succesful with it.

Havock
30-08-2010, 14:53
It is closer but not actually 50%. Try 26.32%.

With the power scroll it is a 90.72% chance to roll any double on 6 dice. So you should get it through irresistibly then you use the 35 point one use only item. It is not what I would waste my Arcane item allowance on but feel free.

You would not spend 35 pts to decimate your opponent's battleline?

The Wizard doesn't even need to be expensive. Just a simple level 2 next to a level 4 of the same lore (death), the level 4 rolls first and takes whatever it pleases, swapping out [6] for [S] if required, the level 2 rolls and is almost assured of the spell.

Next step is flying forward and blasting the large template sideways into his/her battleline.

All the powered up 'mega spells' should have a caveat that IF doesn't work on them, you have to beat the score on your own.

kris.sherriff
30-08-2010, 15:03
I play Dark Elves and I will not deny that they have a good magic phase but I honestly don't see it as being as bad as you think. I like Dark Magic as the Template does not scatter for Black Horror but that's just me.

To be able to do what you are saying I would need to spend at least 395 points on a level 4 and a level 2 with no upgrades to guarantee getting Pit.

Now I can ever make sure I get it on the level 4 or the level 2 and either would have advantages but that's not my point. The point is I have spend may be a quater of my points (I still like 2000 point games sorry) to get 1 spell that should kill about 1/3 to 1/2 of whatever it hits each time I get to cast it. If I am trying to get off Miasma to up that kill ratio I am useing some of the finite dice and making it easier for you to stop something.

Agreed I have PoD to give me a boost but I need to keep 2 dice to be able to reliably cast it as if I fail I can't cast any more any way so we will go worst case and say I got a double 5 and channelled twice and you failed I have 12 dice you have 5.

I cast Miasma on 2 dice from the level 4 you roll 3 dice and stop it with your level 4 I cast it again with the level 2 with 2 dice you stop it with two dice from the level 4.

I have 8 dice left so do I throw them all in to Pit? cast some other spells, save some for PoD, what. Like I said at the start even if I IF pit on one of your units it scatters and then kills as 2/3 of what it hits you may be panic and there is a gap in your line.

I have not gotten any points at this time, all you have to do is rally and I get nothing, sod it keep fleeing with just one guy but stay on the table and my 500 point investment has gotten me nothing. Sure I have weakened a part of you battle plan but so does shooting and combat when people invest 500 points in to that. If you work around it and don't make it obvious which units you are relying on then you will be fine.

I used my goblin in a tournament at the weekend and finished mid table despite my level 4's unit failing animosity for 2 turns in a row for two games in a row leaving my with next to no magic defence at all. The points in that army are spread all over the table with no one unit being worth stupidly more than another and so I would take a let a spell off against something, let it get battered and then pull it back and threaten with a different unit, if they wanted the points from the first unit they had to ignore the new threat and if they wanted to respond to that then I preserved my points.

Kris

jamano
30-08-2010, 15:07
It is closer but not actually 50%. Try 26.32%.



I had 5 people in various levels of schooling try to figure that one out and they all ended up with something different, one did say 27% so I guess he wins :p

Theres a couple other variables involved though, wouldn't the hellsteed get to make a vanguard move if you wanted to, which would let him get the straight shot across the battle line first turn? Theres a couple minor ways to protect him too, like the 5 pt sheild item. And it will probably be easier than 50% to get the first turn, lizardmen should usually have more deploys with skinks and whatnot. Also even if you dont technically get any points becuase they arent wiped out, you can cripple them to the point of no effectiveness in CC or make them an easy target to pick off with magic or shooting(the latter not being too big of a deal with vampires obviously)

I don't have my book on me, whats the timing with substituting spells on a wizard? Could you roll 2 spells on a lvl 2, then substitute one for the signature, then roll your lvl 4's spells?

kris.sherriff
30-08-2010, 15:28
Theres a couple other variables involved though, wouldn't the hellsteed get to make a vanguard move if you wanted to, which would let him get the straight shot across the battle line first turn? Theres a couple minor ways to protect him too, like the 5 pt sheild item. And it will probably be easier than 50% to get the first turn, lizardmen should usually have more deploys with skinks and whatnot. Also even if you dont technically get any points becuase they arent wiped out, you can cripple them to the point of no effectiveness in CC or make them an easy target to pick off with magic or shooting(the latter not being too big of a deal with vampires obviously)

The Hell Steed is just a flyer to my knowledge so I do think it has Vanguard but could be wrong, he still hast to go some to get to a proper flank and it is a huge risk when you don know if you have gotten first turn.

I would go for the Cadaverous Curiass for a 4+ save and imunity to poison and killing blow but that is about the best you can do and pushes you to 205 points.

OK they may well have 12 dice left after that but how many more spells are you going to let off now that the scroll is gone and they only have 295 for there actual proper support vamps, plus a lord. I would not expect too much more damage that turn.

I am not saying that the spell would not hurt you battle plan but for me part of the tactics of 8th is addapting to a stuation like that. That I may lose 10 guys each from 4 units but that vampire will be dead in my turn and my slann would be regrowing my main unit and my fun would start.


I don't have my book on me, whats the timing with substituting spells on a wizard? Could you roll 2 spells on a lvl 2, then substitute one for the signature, then roll your lvl 4's spells?

You pick a wizard and roll, choosing any spells for doubles and then you may substitute one for the signiture/number 1 spell for army book lores. You then move on to the next wizard and choose for any duplicat spells rolled/dubbles and then substitute for signature/number 1.

So with a level 4 and a level 2 you are almost guarenteed to get what you want.

kris

jamano
30-08-2010, 15:43
Makes it easier to get the particular spell you want on the right caster that way.

I saw dark elves doing their own version of the hellsteed cheese with a caster on a dark pegasus and the pendant of khaleth. Has three wounds and that annoying ward save for protection. Doesnt cost many points plus they have power of darkness to get more dice. And repeater xbows to finish off the units :(

kris.sherriff
30-08-2010, 15:54
Can't have the pendant and a Power Scroll though unless you are a lord and that's a bit too many points to be sitting in front of an army on her own for my liking. Still point taken that Dark Elves could capitalise on getting off a bigger spell easier. I would still be declaring the charge on her and hope to drive her off the table with some fast cav or something.

I am going to go out on a limb and say right here and now that although magic in this edition can be more destructive and will win some people some tournament (in the same way that Gateway Spam did in 7th) that I think the good players will be using more of the buff/de-buff spells than the higher casting death spells, and that in a years time Pit/Sun/Dwellers will be no more of an issue that the same type of spells were in 7th even with power scrolls et al.

Kris

Phazael
30-08-2010, 16:56
You guys obviously have not seen the Power Scroll Mountain Chimera Vampire with Van Hels on it. The Power scroll is the principle problem with the 8th edition magic phase, along with the ability of some armies to simply have added power dice or dispel dice (VC, HE, Empire, Dwarves) making low winds rolls actually more desirable.

decker_cky
30-08-2010, 17:37
You can still flee that mountain chimera with most units, or you can frog scroll it and kill it, or you can use a well timed dispel scroll, or you can dispel vanhels, or you can challenge it minimize it's damage, or even in many cases, it can cause a bunch of damage, you hold as a steadfast unit then dispel and kill the vamp.

And I've seen that combo complained about quite often...that combo isn't as good as getting off savage beast which doesn't remove a wizard, and doesn't remove your weapons and equipment, and has a much lower casting cost.

Of the top spells....I think only lore of fire is worse than lore of beasts, since lore of beasts is incredibly risky and situational.

Ender Shadowkin
30-08-2010, 17:58
You guys obviously have not seen the Power Scroll Mountain Chimera Vampire with Van Hels on it. The Power scroll is the principle problem with the 8th edition magic phase, along with the ability of some armies to simply have added power dice or dispel dice (VC, HE, Empire, Dwarves) making low winds rolls actually more desirable.

So he gets into one unit, big deal. Even if you don't wanna flee, Just challenge him (he can't refuse), you will be stead fast. Then dispell the stupid RIP in your turn.

These one turn win strategies, look good on paper, but; really take an alignment of the stars to work reliably (see kris.sherriff's post above, nice work the the statistics! (they are dead on) ), are only cheapily accessible to a couple lists (VC and DE, sorta with DC), and are not universially usefull agains a wide variety of opponents. The later point makes me think groups that are seeing problems with it are not playing with the random scenarios and are either building lists verse specific opponents (nothing wrong with a good grudge match :D ) or not declaring their lores when they build the list as required by the rules.

Who is going build a one trick poney 1st turn killa purple sun VC list when you might show up to face DE, who could care less about your silly I test? Frankly VC have it rough enough with this edition by not cripling their HTH combat or raising abilities.

itcamefromthedeep
30-08-2010, 18:19
With the power scroll it is a 90.72% chance to roll any double on 6 dice.

He cant join units so there is a 50% chance in him not getting the first turn where you can try to kill the just shy of 200 point naked ass vampire before he purple suns your army off the table.

We now get to the magic phase he has to roll 6 or more to be able to roll 6 dice so that has a 72.22% chance of happening.
I count a 45936/46656 of getting at least one double, or about a 1/65 chance of failing.

A Vampire on a Hellsteed still gets to join units. It's just a cavalry model that can fly.

People often forget that the vampire player might not roll 6 casting dice for that turn. It's no guarantee of the tactic failing (channeling can still happen of course, and you can roll a double on fewer than 6 dice). Rolling snake eyes that turn can ruin the vampire's fun, though.


Its actually more than just the powerscroll, against a DE army with where he will heavilly outnumber you on dice. he is going to have a massive ability to get the spell off or at the very least use all his other spells to great effect while you save your dice for the one spell that can win the game if he is succesful with it.
Bring at least one scroll. That will help. A Feedback Scroll as a backup might solve the problem in a later turn.


The Wizard doesn't even need to be expensive. Just a simple level 2 next to a level 4 of the same lore (death), the level 4 rolls first and takes whatever it pleases, swapping out [6] for [S] if required, the level 2 rolls and is almost assured of the spell.One lvl 4 and a pair of lvl 2s guarantees the spell on the wizard you want. The level 4 rolls, and switches one out for the signature (big spell if it comes up). Same for the lvl 2. That leaves two spells left, one of which is the spell you are going for.


You can still flee that mountain chimera with most units, or you can frog scroll it and kill it, or you can use a well timed dispel scroll, or you can dispel vanhels, or you can challenge it minimize it's damage, or even in many cases, it can cause a bunch of damage, you hold as a steadfast unit then dispel and kill the vamp.

And I've seen that combo complained about quite often...that combo isn't as good as getting off savage beast which doesn't remove a wizard, and doesn't remove your weapons and equipment, and has a much lower casting cost.You can't frog a spell cast with Irresistible force. You don't get a dispel step to replace with the Hex effect.

A Vampire Lord bringing Red Fury can simply wipe many units out that round. While you lose your equipment, you get to keep special rules like Red Fury. Note that it looks as if Red Fury still counts wounds caused by the breath weapon and/or thunderstomp. There's no restriction on the number of instances Red Fury can trigger in a round of combat.

Challenging the character works just fine to stall it while you dispel the spell. That is, of course, unless there's no champion or character in the unit, or the Vampire player has another unit in the combat, or the unit that was targeted for smashing is a Greater Daemon or Engine of the Gods. The risk of challenging seriously curbs the number of viable targets for the tactic, though.

A Vampire on their own with Red Fury can simply beat many infantry units, even if Transformation is dispelled. Dispelling is no guarantee of beating that model in that configuration (perhaps with a Sword of Swift Slaying for the occasion).

Havock
30-08-2010, 18:42
Six options, 4-1 is three, so a level 2 can still roll the other option. If the level 4 doesn't roll the big spell, or the level 2 has three spells, you are assured of it :)

Lore of Death's PD renewal thing also shouldn't work versus undead.