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SiNNiX
27-08-2010, 18:09
So I've played 15 games total so far in 8th Edition, 13 with my Dwarfs. The only armies I haven't played yet are Empire and Ogre Kingdoms. I play at 3,000 points and do, indeed, use a gunline. In my defense, I've been using Dwarf gunlines for years and years, so I didn't really change anything with my army. However, I'm currently undefeated with my Dwarf army including wins over 2x Slann lists, a Skaven horde list and an O&G horde list (just the notable, excellent lists). I'm already bored with my list and how easy it wins, and I'm also noticing that people are getting back to the way it used to be where nobody wants to play my army. In tournaments, they haven't had a choice, but I know it's not fun for either me nor my opponent.

What kind of experiences have you guys had so far in 8th Edition with gunlines, either facing them or using them? Is it fun for you? Like many of you know, I am a player who only plays to win and not so much for fun, but this is completely different. This is absolutely no fun for me. I'm about to start collecting a WOC 3k army and I know, the way I plan on running that list, it'll be alot more fun.

Any recommendations for me to have more fun with my army? I really don't want to sacrifice wins, but at the same time, blasting my opponent with 10 war machines and winning easy on the third turn just isn't fun. It actually kind of makes me mad that this strategy I've been using for so many years, that was definitely not an easy win list before, is now a guaranteed win list and nobody wants to play with me.

PeG
27-08-2010, 18:29
Use more terrain that actually blocks LOS such as solid buildings. With the new rules for LOS this is rather important and should give your opponents the possibility to protect their units and make it possible for faster units to actually get into combat relatively unharmed.


Play scenarios that requires that you move out of position to be able to win the game.

Restrict your list either by limiting the number of warmachines or the efficacy of them ie no engineers (or whatever the dwarf equivalent is), limited selection of runes etc

So far I havent faced any dwarf gunlines in 8th but I have wiped a couple of empire versions. Actually these are my only wins so far with my slaanesh daemons. Seekers with vanguard, herald and siren song in combination with fiends and some flyers tends to give gunlines some problems especially with proper terrain.

decker_cky
27-08-2010, 18:32
Take more infantry? Dwarf infantry is much better now and makes your army less one dimensional. Why would the WoC be so much more fun than dwarfs if you could just lighten up your personal choices and make your army less of a gunline? Take more warriors, hammerers, rangers, slayers, ironbreakers, etc.. If you're worried about movement, take the anvil of doom for some extra movement (and all the other good stuff it brings to the table).

DisasterMaster
27-08-2010, 18:34
Well I don't really know you, so sorry if I'm wrong in any assumptions, but if you are looking to only play to win and still have fun while only playing to win, good luck. In my experience, the road down 'play to win cheese lists' saps most of the fun out of the game, and you will end up playing other people like yourself, with their own respective cheese list and play to win attitude. Casual gamers looking for fun will have less competitive lists and won't want to play your stacked one.

I could suggest looking for more skilled opponents to give you more of a challenge. Also, change your list a bit, playing with the same list gets boring win or lose. It is just hard to help because it's really hard to have more fun in warhamer without sacrificing competetiveness, which you don't want to do.

Wolfroar
27-08-2010, 18:41
My bro has dwarfs. We are aiming on having good and exciting battles so he won't be using a gunline. Just a balanced mix of range and infantry units. Although he does not win all the time we are having fun, that is what its all about right?

If you like shooting why not go for 40k? ;)

Loopstah
27-08-2010, 18:52
Clearly shooting is overpowered in 8th edition and the only solution is to restrict or comp all the powerful shooting to help those armies that can't handle having all their units shot before reaching combat.

Perhaps you should let you opponent veto some of your shooting options or restrict the number of multi-wound inflicting warmachines you have. You could even house rule all your ranged weapons misfire on a roll of 1 to hit.

Everybody knows having your army killed before you get the chance to hurt the opponent is the worst thing ever.


Sorry, couldn't resist.


On a serious note why not just take more non-ranged infantry, then you can still win but your opponents wont feel like they are facing a gunline. You could even drop the number of war machines and you would still have a good shot at winning, 10 war machines is a bit of an overkill, 7 or 8 would still be deadly but less win more.

Lord Dan
27-08-2010, 18:54
I'm already bored with my list and how easy it wins, and I'm also noticing that people are getting back to the way it used to be where nobody wants to play my army.

------

Like many of you know, I am a player who only plays to win and not so much for fun, but this is completely different. This is absolutely no fun for me.

------

It actually kind of makes me mad that this strategy I've been using for so many years, that was definitely not an easy win list before, is now a guaranteed win list and nobody wants to play with me.

I know how you feel.

I too am a god of tabletop warfare amongst mere mortals. Every time I play I win with such incredible ease that my body actually manages to achieve a state of REM sleep. I therefore, at least, finish my games well rested.

I've dabbled in things like taking more varied lists to make games more interesting, but I find that this actually forces me to think. There have even been times when using this strategy where I have thought I might lose. Of course the game would be even less fun if I lost, so I stopped trying this.

Ultimately I'm torn between two evils: win the game and have no fun, or lose the game and have no fun. My friends tell me I might just not enjoy playing Warhammer, but I suspect they're just mad that I win all the time.

...

I'm bored.

SiNNiX
27-08-2010, 18:58
Take more infantry? Dwarf infantry is much better now and makes your army less one dimensional. Why would the WoC be so much more fun than dwarfs if you could just lighten up your personal choices and make your army less of a gunline? Take more warriors, hammerers, rangers, slayers, ironbreakers, etc.. If you're worried about movement, take the anvil of doom for some extra movement (and all the other good stuff it brings to the table).

Yeah, in my current list I only have 3 units of infantry (2 units of 30 Warriors and a unit of 30 Longbeards). I also already use AoD.

I think what I might do is take away a few Grudge Throwers (and obviously the ME's that go with them) and take a decent-sized unit of Ironbreakers or Hammerers. Maybe Miners? I have never used Miners except for in casual games for fun, so that could be interesting. Maybe a gyrocopter? Bwahaha, just kidding!

Frankly
27-08-2010, 19:03
I know how you feel.

I too am a god of tabletop warfare amongst mere mortals. Every time I play I win with such incredible ease that my body actually manages to achieve a state of REM sleep. I therefore, at least, finish my games well rested.

I've dabbled in things like taking more varied lists to make games more interesting, but I find that this actually forces me to think. There have even been times when using this strategy where I have thought I might lose. Of course the game would be even less fun if I lost, so I stopped trying this.

Ultimately I'm torn between two evils: win the game and have no fun, or lose the game and have no fun. My friends tell me I might just not enjoy playing Warhammer, but I suspect they're just mad that I win all the time.

...

I'm bored.


I actually laughed out loud reading this.

QFT.

von-pirate
27-08-2010, 19:03
I know how you feel.

I too am a god of tabletop warfare amongst mere mortals. Every time I play I win with such incredible ease that my body actually manages to achieve a state of REM sleep. I therefore, at least, finish my games well rested.

I've dabbled in things like taking more varied lists to make games more interesting, but I find that this actually forces me to think. There have even been times when using this strategy where I have thought I might lose. Of course the game would be even less fun if I lost, so I stopped trying this.

Ultimately I'm torn between two evils: win the game and have no fun, or lose the game and have no fun. My friends tell me I might just not enjoy playing Warhammer, but I suspect they're just mad that I win all the time.

...

I'm bored.

This is the first thing that has made me laugh today - thank you!

WarmbloodedLizard
27-08-2010, 19:03
gunlines have always been extremely boring, especially the dwarven ones.
I'd say as a rule, don't take more than about 25% in shooting. that should be a pretty strong shooting phase that is not yet boring.

in 8th, dwarfs are really strong even with only 2-3 warmachines. just look at those great weapons!

edit: lord dan, you are indeed the terminator of warhammer :D
edit2: i don't count the anvil as shooting, btw.

SiNNiX
27-08-2010, 19:27
I know how you feel.

I too am a god of tabletop warfare amongst mere mortals. Every time I play I win with such incredible ease that my body actually manages to achieve a state of REM sleep. I therefore, at least, finish my games well rested.

I've dabbled in things like taking more varied lists to make games more interesting, but I find that this actually forces me to think. There have even been times when using this strategy where I have thought I might lose. Of course the game would be even less fun if I lost, so I stopped trying this.

Ultimately I'm torn between two evils: win the game and have no fun, or lose the game and have no fun. My friends tell me I might just not enjoy playing Warhammer, but I suspect they're just mad that I win all the time.

...

I'm bored.

Lord Dan just gets me. Finally someone who understands how I feel!

SiNNiX
27-08-2010, 19:46
If you like shooting why not go for 40k? ;)

Never! But seriously, I don't like the theme or story of 40k. Orcs with guns? Excuse me, "Orks." It's just kind of silly to me. Besides, I can't even stand listening to other people's 40k jargon that I don't have any clue about; it all sounds so cheesy!

"My Glass Cannon blew a whole right through your line of Marine Terminator Sentinals, but not before your Star Cannon decimated my Dreadnaught Core Machines!"

That probably didn't make any sense at all for you 40k players, but that's what it sounds like to me. :p

Gazak Blacktoof
27-08-2010, 23:57
gunlines have always been extremely boring, especially the dwarven ones.

My thoughts exactly, and with templates being more effective now I can't see it becoming any more fun.

As others have done, I'd suggest the OP switches his play style to one focused on combat. Use shooting as a support tool and ditch it as the major component of the army.

m1s1n
28-08-2010, 00:02
I think it's fine to play a gunline, but eventually people aren't going to be interested in playing with you. Plus, as you've stated, it isn't really a challenging strategy, and gets boring. This seems to really defeat the purpose of playing a game, since you're supposed to enjoy what you're doing. Maybe it's time to change things up?

Idle Scholar
28-08-2010, 00:13
I don't get it. Who's actually being serious in this thread? :confused:

frisbee
28-08-2010, 01:06
Getting ready for ard boys a buddy of mine is taking 6 cannon/6 mortar plus alot of other shooting things. We play tested and he killed everything or had it running off the board in two turns. I conceded and told him i would never play against that list again. But it is ard boys and that is what to expect.

I wish people would just think of all the options out there instead of instant win buttons.
Remember that If you don't kill every model in unit you don't get the points for it.

SiNNiX
28-08-2010, 01:09
I don't get it. Who's actually being serious in this thread? :confused:

Hahaha!

As far as everyone else's advice, I definitely think it's time for a change. I'm probably gonna invest some of my next paycheck in some Hammerers, Ironbreakers and another unit of Longbeards. I've never really been a fan of Miners, so I think I'll continue to avoid them. I'm also thinking of upgrading my scouts not only to be Longbeards, but also have throwing axes! I did this once in 7th and it was hilarious! Strength 5 Stand-and-shoot!

SiNNiX
28-08-2010, 01:10
Getting ready for ard boys a buddy of mine is taking 6 cannon/6 mortar plus alot of other shooting things. We play tested and he killed everything or had it running off the board in two turns. I conceded and told him i would never play against that list again. But it is ard boys and that is what to expect.

I wish people would just think of all the options out there instead of instant win buttons.
Remember that If you don't kill every model in unit you don't get the points for it.

Yeah, see: that is the kind of response I always get after turn 2. :(

Xcross
28-08-2010, 01:10
Lord dan... Your text made me laugh out loud, quite funny actually.

Havock
28-08-2010, 02:15
i know how you feel.

I too am a god of tabletop warfare amongst mere mortals.

There can be only one!

AngryAngel
28-08-2010, 04:43
I know how you feel.

I too am a god of tabletop warfare amongst mere mortals. Every time I play I win with such incredible ease that my body actually manages to achieve a state of REM sleep. I therefore, at least, finish my games well rested.

I've dabbled in things like taking more varied lists to make games more interesting, but I find that this actually forces me to think. There have even been times when using this strategy where I have thought I might lose. Of course the game would be even less fun if I lost, so I stopped trying this.

Ultimately I'm torn between two evils: win the game and have no fun, or lose the game and have no fun. My friends tell me I might just not enjoy playing Warhammer, but I suspect they're just mad that I win all the time.

...

I'm bored.


Very funny my man. I did laugh alot reading that. Oh boy, I needed that laugh.

Ratbeast
28-08-2010, 04:55
So I've played 15 games total so far in 8th Edition, 13 with my Dwarfs. The only armies I haven't played yet are Empire and Ogre Kingdoms. I play at 3,000 points and do, indeed, use a gunline. In my defense, I've been using Dwarf gunlines for years and years, so I didn't really change anything with my army. However, I'm currently undefeated with my Dwarf army including wins over 2x Slann lists, a Skaven horde list and an O&G horde list (just the notable, excellent lists). I'm already bored with my list and how easy it wins, and I'm also noticing that people are getting back to the way it used to be where nobody wants to play my army. In tournaments, they haven't had a choice, but I know it's not fun for either me nor my opponent.

What kind of experiences have you guys had so far in 8th Edition with gunlines, either facing them or using them? Is it fun for you? Like many of you know, I am a player who only plays to win and not so much for fun, but this is completely different. This is absolutely no fun for me. I'm about to start collecting a WOC 3k army and I know, the way I plan on running that list, it'll be alot more fun.

Any recommendations for me to have more fun with my army? I really don't want to sacrifice wins, but at the same time, blasting my opponent with 10 war machines and winning easy on the third turn just isn't fun. It actually kind of makes me mad that this strategy I've been using for so many years, that was definitely not an easy win list before, is now a guaranteed win list and nobody wants to play with me.

You play the game how its spose to be played :), to win, it not your list, its your opponents, at this current point in time, i am having my *** handed to me by my mates WoC list, do i winge and complain that i cant beat it? no, i come back the following week with a new army list and tactic, and give it another go :D i am confident i will defeat it well and good one day soon

burad
28-08-2010, 05:07
Use the new scenarios in the book.
Don't just line 'em up and go at it.
If you have to move those war machines acros the board to win the game it will certainly change how your army plays.

Aluinn
28-08-2010, 06:56
My thoughts (well, thought) on gunlines is that they are extremely boring. I don't think they're brokenly good unless you play with not enough terrain and/or refuse to use varied scenarios. However, even if they are not too good, they are lame. Yes, selecting priority targets for your shooting is a challenge for someone just starting the game, but with even a dozen games under your belt it becomes a no-brainer. After that you have all the thrill of hoping not to misfire too much. Woohoo.

From your opponents' perspectives, they're either getting blown to crud before they can make anything happen, or they make it into combat with multiple intact units, in which case the game is over for the gunline from that point on and it's again just an exercise in dice-chucking for a foregone conclusion.

Thus, I advise you to try, let's say, a shooty army with significant combat elements. In this way you can keep the style of play you enjoy without making the game a total snoozefest.

SiNNiX
28-08-2010, 07:32
Naw, I just need to figure out a new army to play. Everyone keeps advising me against starting WOC because they suck so I need to figure out something that fits the following criteria:

1. Not a horde army (as I don't make too much money and hate painting).
2. Not "cheesy."

Pacorko
28-08-2010, 07:54
Then, cut the number of warmachines in half, invest on a couple of Ironbreaker or Trollslayer units, have a few extra warriors to throw around and entagle those Chaos heathens, and have a lot more fun while going at it and getting hit.

I'm pretty sure that 5 multi-wound warmachines will soften the WoC player enough to give your infantry a quite nice chance to shine and go for the hard-earned win.

Do notice I said "soften them up" not "wipe them out".

I'd say that would do the trick.

P.S.: Lord Dan... I laughed, too. In the wee hours of the Mexican night... aloud. Wife, not happy.

I mean, how can anyone not laugh reading that while listening Ahnie's voice on their heads thanks to your avatar? :D

SiNNiX
28-08-2010, 07:58
Then, cut the number of warmachines in half, invest on a couple of Ironbreaker or Trollslayer units, have a few extra warriors to throw around and entagle those Chaos heathens, and have a lot more fun while going at it and getting hit.

I'm pretty sure that 5 multi-wound warmachines will soften the WoC player enough to give your infantry a quite nice chance to shine and go for the hard-earned win.

Do notice I said "soften them up" not "wipe them out".

I'd say that would do the trick.

P.S.: Lord Dan... I laughed, too. In the wee hours of the Mexican night... aloud. Wife, not happy.

I mean, how can anyone not laugh reading that while listening Ahnie's voice on their heads thanks to your avatar? :D

I'm sorry, I must've been pretty bad with my wording. I meant people were advising me against starting a WOC army because they suck. I dismantled the WOC army I played in 8th pretty easily. You know.. gunline and all. :(

Sorry for the miscommunication!

Kayosiv
28-08-2010, 11:45
Any recommendations for me to have more fun with my army? I really don't want to sacrifice wins, but at the same time, blasting my opponent with 10 war machines and winning easy on the third turn just isn't fun. It actually kind of makes me mad that this strategy I've been using for so many years, that was definitely not an easy win list before, is now a guaranteed win list and nobody wants to play with me.

Welcome to 8th edition, it's terrible. You can argue that (and many do) it is not the case, but the fact is that artillery and magic are so out of balance with the rest of the game that it makes everything else pointless. Especially artillery, because it has less of a chance to blow itself up, even less with runes and engineers.

The problem you are seeing is that the balance of 8th edition is so bad, that when building a hard list, you virtually cannot lose. I imagine the only thing you could actually lose to would be an army with an equal amount of artillery and just have a shooting fight. You're going to have to scale back the war machines. You just can't have your cake and eat it too, you're going to have to lose while learning and adapting to a new play style, wins will come later.

The good news is, Dwarves are awesome in close combat. Dwarf warriors got an incredable boost, in that they are tough, DIDN"T have 2 attacks (so they get a 50% benefit from attacking in 2 ranks, not just a 33% benefit like most other toughness 4 troops who had 2 attacks each on their profile to start), and have amazing leadership. Blocks of 25 dwarfs with a thane in them are scary. Dwarf miners and rangers with great weapons appearing behind enemy lines are downright terrifying.

My suggestion would be to take out approximately half your shooting, and invest in some dwarf warrior blocks, and see how they perform. Try out fun stuff like a Gyrocopters, rangers, and slayers, and see how you can get the best out of them. Take the non-optimal choices. If you can't help but play to win, just don't make so drastic a chance. Take out 1 shooting unit and 1 artillery piece and add something that is close combat oriented, then try to get the max out of it.

Crovax20
28-08-2010, 12:01
Smells like a terrain problem to me.. Try using the random terrain generator in the rulebook. We always seem to get settlements of order, steadfast sanctums etc. For us this usually means there is at least one part of the board with a solid amount of cover from shooting.

Also we houseruled that shooting at a unit in a forest is soft cover and a unit behind a forest is hardcover.

ewar
28-08-2010, 12:29
Lord Dan just gets me. Finally someone who understands how I feel!

He was being ironic. The thing I can't tell is, are you?

OT: how do you consistently win all the scenarios with a gun line? It sounds to me like your opposition are either extremely uninventive or you're just playing the old straight up pitched battle.

Meeting engagement, dawn attack and blood and glory should all be hard to win with your list against any player with a brain and enough units on the table. What about the watchtower?

Do your opponents have fast armies? I can think of several monster/cavalry heavy armies that would wipe out your warmachines very quickly.

How about the skaven player uses the storm banner? That will prevent half your warmachines firing for a turn with a 50% chance of doing the same in the second turn. Dark elves could take shadowblade, Skaven have tunneling teams, LM massed chameleons.

When I've fought dwarf gunlines before I used to use the denial game and just take 3 table quarters for a minor win while hiding everything. Extremely boring, but teaches them a lesson that the other player has a choice not to wander mindlessly forward to be shot.

A refused flank is also difficult for warmachines to beat - just move as fast as possible up one board edge and then roll along from flank to flank. If you're playing the LOS rules correctly not all machines will be able to fire (if they can it will only be against the first enemy unit in the column) assuming you don't have five hills in your deployment zone (which could be another issue).

Also, try playing 2999pt games as it means you're restricted to 3 of any special and only 2 organ guns.

mdauben
28-08-2010, 12:40
If you like shooting why not go for 40k? ;)
Actually, as counter-intuative as it may seem, gunlines work better in WFB than in 40K, which is dominated by close combat units. :rolleyes:

Urgat
28-08-2010, 13:17
Hahaha!

As far as everyone else's advice, I definitely think it's time for a change. I'm probably gonna invest some of my next paycheck in some Hammerers, Ironbreakers and another unit of Longbeards. I've never really been a fan of Miners, so I think I'll continue to avoid them. I'm also thinking of upgrading my scouts not only to be Longbeards, but also have throwing axes! I did this once in 7th and it was hilarious! Strength 5 Stand-and-shoot!

Ok, I've read the topic, and the thing you seem most adverse to is to use gyrocopters. So my suggestion would be to take as many of those as you can, and learn to frackin win with them. I swear if I ever get to a point where I win all the time with my gobs, I'll take five large units of snotlings and try to win with them.

Stuffburger
28-08-2010, 14:31
Keep on doing the gunline thing, just switch the army that you do it with. How about the oft-mangled O&G bowline? 6 Spear chukkas, 3 Rock Lobbas, 2 Doom divers and fill the rest with arrer boyz and night goblin bowmen :D

kaubin
28-08-2010, 15:09
If you`re looking for a new challenging non-horde army you could try tomb kings. They only get 2 war machines under 3k, have very few number and are a challenge to play.

Lordsaradain
28-08-2010, 15:43
I know how you feel.

I too am a god of tabletop warfare amongst mere mortals. Every time I play I win with such incredible ease that my body actually manages to achieve a state of REM sleep. I therefore, at least, finish my games well rested.

I've dabbled in things like taking more varied lists to make games more interesting, but I find that this actually forces me to think. There have even been times when using this strategy where I have thought I might lose. Of course the game would be even less fun if I lost, so I stopped trying this.

Ultimately I'm torn between two evils: win the game and have no fun, or lose the game and have no fun. My friends tell me I might just not enjoy playing Warhammer, but I suspect they're just mad that I win all the time.

...

I'm bored.

Sigged. :D

Toshiro
28-08-2010, 15:59
I find gunlines extremely boring to both play with and against, not only due to their effectiveness, but because I usually prefer to do more then just throw some dice around, I actually want to move some models and consider at least some tactics as well :)

Just downsize your shooting to about 25% and things should be a bit fairer, dwarf infantry is also really good in 8th, so you won't really sacrifice anything, just make things a bit more fun :)

itcamefromthedeep
28-08-2010, 16:13
Everyone keeps advising me against starting WOC because they suckPerhaps Warriors of Chaos aren't your army. I've seen some rock-hard lists out there.

Tomb Kings and Wood Elves are both neither "cheesy" nor horde armies. Tomb Kings in particular are pretty easy to paint (paint white, ink with a light brown, put a primary color on somewhere, call it a day).

I'd like to see someone pull off a solid Wood elf list, though.


Welcome to 8th edition, it's terrible.

...

Especially artillery, because it has less of a chance to blow itself up, even less with runes and engineers.
That first comment isn't helpful.

The bit about artillery is false. The chance of misfiring and the consequences of it are identical to 7th edition.

That was otherwise a constructive post.


Keep on doing the gunline thing, just switch the army that you do it with. How about the oft-mangled O&G bowline?
Arrer Boyz, while tactically excellent in my humble opinion, are very difficult to find these days and even more difficult to rank up.

The benefit of the Greenskin bowline is that the deep units of horde infantry still definitely have their place in that list. The army still gets to look like an army.

---

The scenario victory conditions help against gunlines, but it's still remarkably difficult to win without models on the table.

Buildings are useful for blocking line of sight, but to an Organ Gun a unit in a building is as vulnerable as a unit sitting in the open beside the building. They're helpful, but no guarantee of survival.

Common anti-gunline strategies still work in this edition. Arguably moreso with the reduction in march-blocking and the increased charge range of infantry.

I will concur with the assessment that terrain is vital to neutering a gunline. With some large forests, buildings and tall hills on the table it should be much easier to make many of those cannons and handguns obsolete.

SiNNiX
28-08-2010, 17:07
He was being ironic. The thing I can't tell is, are you?

Sarcastic? If that's the word you meant, then yes I know.


OT: how do you consistently win all the scenarios with a gun line? It sounds to me like your opposition are either extremely uninventive or you're just playing the old straight up pitched battle.

Meeting engagement, dawn attack and blood and glory should all be hard to win with your list against any player with a brain and enough units on the table. What about the watchtower?

There are 3 tournaments within a 200 mile radius of my house that I play in three times I month. All 3 of these tournaments are pitched battles, not scenarios. And I don't do casual play so there's never a chance for me to do scenarios.


Do your opponents have fast armies? I can think of several monster/cavalry heavy armies that would wipe out your warmachines very quickly.

4x Organ Guns. I usually get pretty average rolls with them and I basically never misfire. They take care of any pesky fast cavalry, and my 99% accurate GT's (RoAccuracy + ME) take care of monsters easily as well.


How about the skaven player uses the storm banner? That will prevent half your warmachines firing for a turn with a 50% chance of doing the same in the second turn. Dark elves could take shadowblade, Skaven have tunneling teams, LM massed chameleons.

Storm Banner is always a huge crippling factor when I play Skaven, however it's never enough to let them avoid a loss. The one thing I've found around it is that when I face a Skaven list, the options of what is most important for me to kill are usually very obvious, so as long as just a few of my GT's can shoot during Storm Banner's effects, I'm good to go.

As far as Shadowblade is concerned, tournaments don't allow SC's. And to get rid of ambushing units, my Organ Guns are perfectly place for them, and it's also impossible to squeeze ambushing units behind my artillery as there is no room. The only potential downfall to this (was the same for me in 7th) is that this means they're right next to the table edge for purposes of Panic and whatnot.


When I've fought dwarf gunlines before I used to use the denial game and just take 3 table quarters for a minor win while hiding everything. Extremely boring, but teaches them a lesson that the other player has a choice not to wander mindlessly forward to be shot.

Even though I deploy almost my entire army in a corner, I still have a few war machines off to the side (about 18" away) of my army to discourage that. The only way to get rid of them is to commit one or two units to them and drawing you out, considering I'll make sure they kill any of your shooting units first that could draw LOS to them, and magic doesn't really do anything against my army (+3 DD, -1 to your PD, Spelleaters, Spellbreakers)


A refused flank is also difficult for warmachines to beat - just move as fast as possible up one board edge and then roll along from flank to flank. If you're playing the LOS rules correctly not all machines will be able to fire (if they can it will only be against the first enemy unit in the column) assuming you don't have five hills in your deployment zone (which could be another issue).

Like I said, I deploy in a corner with my units in a rainbow protecting my war machines. It basically means I have no flanks. And yes, I always make sure to take hills on either deployment zone; those are the two pieces of terrain I take and then I stop. This could be something I fix to force more (or less) strategy.


Also, try playing 2999pt games as it means you're restricted to 3 of any special and only 2 organ guns.

The only problem with this is that I spent plenty of money with the release of 8th Edition to upgrade from my old 2,250 point army to a 3k army, so it'd feel like a huge waste.



In conclusion, it's pretty obvious that I should trim down the amount of artillery I take. I'll probably go from 5 Grudge Throwers, 2 Bolt Throwers and 4 Organ Guns to 3 Grudge Throwers, 1 Bolt Thrower and... 4 Organ Guns. :) I'm sorry, I just can't let my babies go! Okay maybe 2 Grudge Throwers, 2 Bolt Throwers and 4 Organ Guns. :)

ewar
28-08-2010, 17:43
Sarcastic? If that's the word you meant, then yes I know.



There are 3 tournaments within a 200 mile radius of my house that I play in three times I month. All 3 of these tournaments are pitched battles, not scenarios. And I don't do casual play so there's never a chance for me to do scenarios.



4x Organ Guns. I usually get pretty average rolls with them and I basically never misfire. They take care of any pesky fast cavalry, and my 99% accurate GT's (RoAccuracy + ME) take care of monsters easily as well.



Storm Banner is always a huge crippling factor when I play Skaven, however it's never enough to let them avoid a loss. The one thing I've found around it is that when I face a Skaven list, the options of what is most important for me to kill are usually very obvious, so as long as just a few of my GT's can shoot during Storm Banner's effects, I'm good to go.

As far as Shadowblade is concerned, tournaments don't allow SC's. And to get rid of ambushing units, my Organ Guns are perfectly place for them, and it's also impossible to squeeze ambushing units behind my artillery as there is no room. The only potential downfall to this (was the same for me in 7th) is that this means they're right next to the table edge for purposes of Panic and whatnot.



Even though I deploy almost my entire army in a corner, I still have a few war machines off to the side (about 18" away) of my army to discourage that. The only way to get rid of them is to commit one or two units to them and drawing you out, considering I'll make sure they kill any of your shooting units first that could draw LOS to them, and magic doesn't really do anything against my army (+3 DD, -1 to your PD, Spelleaters, Spellbreakers)



Like I said, I deploy in a corner with my units in a rainbow protecting my war machines. It basically means I have no flanks. And yes, I always make sure to take hills on either deployment zone; those are the two pieces of terrain I take and then I stop. This could be something I fix to force more (or less) strategy.



The only problem with this is that I spent plenty of money with the release of 8th Edition to upgrade from my old 2,250 point army to a 3k army, so it'd feel like a huge waste.



In conclusion, it's pretty obvious that I should trim down the amount of artillery I take. I'll probably go from 5 Grudge Throwers, 2 Bolt Throwers and 4 Organ Guns to 3 Grudge Throwers, 1 Bolt Thrower and... 4 Organ Guns. :) I'm sorry, I just can't let my babies go! Okay maybe 2 Grudge Throwers, 2 Bolt Throwers and 4 Organ Guns. :)

Apologies if I came across grumpy - massive hangover at the moment.

The cure to all your ills is to play the scenarios - they're not really optional any more, so I don't know why your local tournaments don't play them?

Its the same as 40k now, the missions are part of the game. It's like choosing to play without the shooting phase. Do that and you'll magically find that your gunline army is 50% less effective. AND you'll have more fun.

p.s. castling dwarfs in a corner with warmachines is not (and I don't mean this in a rude way) exactly the high point of warhammer strategy. This is exactly why scenarios were needed to be brought in as it takes absolutely zero player skill to sit back and roll dice.

SiNNiX
28-08-2010, 18:08
Apologies if I came across grumpy - massive hangover at the moment.

Same here. And it's already noon... time for the first Guinness of the day!

As for the scenarios, 2 out of these 3 places are owned by the same guy (a good friend of mine) who decided the standard, atleast for tournaments, was Battleline. After using the scenarios in 2 consecutive tournaments, it was pretty unanimous that nobody liked using them for serious games (and this is 16 players a tournament we're talking about), so he nixed them and stuck with Battleline for 2k-3k. When this was the standard again, the dude who owns the 3rd store switched to it as well so nobody in the local sector would have to adjust. We got a pretty big local sector. :p

Blinder
28-08-2010, 18:12
If the folks running the tournaments you frequent set them up to be highly predictable and to heavily favor a gunline *every time* (which is what it sounds like, I'm assuming they set the tables up, as well?)... Maybe they should have to suffer along with any of their participants who don't want to play a gunline. So, part of your problem is less likely your army/8th rules as a whole, but the effects of always fighting "Battle for Bowling Fields" month after month- were your games in 7th (which you said were more difficult but you generally still managed the win) differently mostly because of partial rolls and/or incorrect guessing?

For "how to change it" I'd go with the folks saying to just modify your list. Not so much "tone it down," but shift the focus (maybe even ditch everything that isn't an organ gun?). I'm just making assumptions, but I'd imagine you have some fondness for the dwarves aside from their potential as a gunline, so there's no need to go finding a completely different army to play, just a different list. If the issue is that you feel you'll have trouble not using the options that are available that's one thing, but if it were me I'd still give other builds in the same force a chance (especially as you'd already have half the army, instead of having to basically start from scratch).

ewar
28-08-2010, 18:27
Same here. And it's already noon... time for the first Guinness of the day!

As for the scenarios, 2 out of these 3 places are owned by the same guy (a good friend of mine) who decided the standard, atleast for tournaments, was Battleline. After using the scenarios in 2 consecutive tournaments, it was pretty unanimous that nobody liked using them for serious games (and this is 16 players a tournament we're talking about), so he nixed them and stuck with Battleline for 2k-3k. When this was the standard again, the dude who owns the 3rd store switched to it as well so nobody in the local sector would have to adjust. We got a pretty big local sector. :p

What is not to like about the scenarios though? The UK grand tournament became much more interesting when they introduced them 2 years ago, and the 8th ed ones are modelled on them.

Change is hard, but I can't honestly believe players would rather face an awful gunline repeatedly than to play a few different deployment schemes!?

The only one I'm not sold on so far is the watchtower, as I think some armies (not my own fortunately) will struggle with it. Other than that, they mix things up nicely - good players can capitalise on this and it gets people out of their comfort zones (like corner castling with war machines :D)

cptcosmic
28-08-2010, 19:00
currently it is not fun to fight against all those warmachines combined with TLOS. people say, in 8., you are faster in close combat, thus it is fine... which is not true at all. in 7. I was in close combat in turn 2 already like now, only thing that changed is, infantry is a bit faster now.

beside the shooting power, those armies with strong shooting phase also have a very strong magic defense, thus you cannot just easily counter with magic, unless you use some power scroll cheese.

in short: non ballistic skill based shooting is overpowered and the rule designer obviously took too many drugs while they wrote the shooting rules. they obviously forgot the cover save like in 40k.

SiNNiX
28-08-2010, 19:24
good players can capitalise on this and it gets people out of their comfort zones (like corner castling with war machines :D)

Dude I've been playing this game for 12 years and have two other armies that I run around the table with. I think I deserve one where I can just chill for the whole game and win every time, don't you!? :)

But serioulsy, I personally like the scenarios... I think they're alot of fun. However, I just don't like how they hinder certain armies' potential. If this was a way to balance gunlines and magic-heavy armies, I think they should've instead dummed artillery and magic down. I don't think people should have to build their list around different possible scenarios they might roll. I just think that's a little ridiculous and a little overdoing it. I know more people will disagree with me than agree with me, but that's what's so awesome about opinions! So I think they're fun, just not great for competetive play. I'm oldschool. I don't like change! :D

Don Zeko
28-08-2010, 20:36
But serioulsy, I personally like the scenarios... I think they're alot of fun. However, I just don't like how they hinder certain armies' potential. If this was a way to balance gunlines and magic-heavy armies, I think they should've instead dummed artillery and magic down. I don't think people should have to build their list around different possible scenarios they might roll. I just think that's a little ridiculous and a little overdoing it. I know more people will disagree with me than agree with me, but that's what's so awesome about opinions! So I think they're fun, just not great for competetive play. I'm oldschool. I don't like change! :D

The trouble with gunlines isn't whether they are overpowered or underpowered, although the problem gets worse if they're OP and more people start taking them to tournaments. The problem is that gunlines, and gunlines on an open field in particular, are unfun to play with or against. It drains all thought and complexity from the game. The non-gunline army will deploy up to the edge of their deployment zone, then run forward at full speed into CC. Then either the dice favor them and they reach the gunline and win, or the dice don't and the gunline obliterates the other army. This is far too boring to justify the immense commitments of time and money that Warhammer requires. Regardless of who wins, both players would be better off if the gunline was replaced by a more dynamic list. So buy some slayers, miners, and rangers! You and your opponents will be happy you did.

Kayosiv
29-08-2010, 05:57
The bit about artillery is false. The chance of misfiring and the consequences of it are identical to 7th edition.



I'm not comparing likelihood to blow up vs 7th edition, I'm comparing likelihood to blow up vs 8th edition spell-casters.

kormas
29-08-2010, 06:59
i gotta say that gunlines are the sort of games that i wouldnt bother with, they have to be the most boring games i have ever played, i say drop most of your shooting and go combat :), tho 4 organ guns...mate that is just nasty

Urgat
29-08-2010, 09:02
I just don't like how they hinder certain armies' potential.

No, they hinder certain lists (you even say it yourself), not certain armies. And that's the point, I believe. So... why changing the rules to make gunlines weaker more acceptable than making scenarios to force gunlines to also include other stuff? One just makes the army weaker, the other enforces the variety. I support GW's choice fully on the matter.

ewar
29-08-2010, 11:04
No, they hinder certain lists (you even say it yourself), not certain armies. And that's the point, I believe. So... why changing the rules to make gunlines weaker more acceptable than making scenarios to force gunlines to also include other stuff? One just makes the army weaker, the other enforces the variety. I support GW's choice fully on the matter.

This is exactly right - no one army is at any disadvantage, just some of the builds, which is entirely the point of the scenarios.

These days your army needs enough fortitude to last a few turns of Blood & Glory, some decent assault troops to fight for the tower, a suitably sized core unit to hold the tower (a recent mistake of my own tournament list!) and it needs to not rely on one trick ponies, in case your army gets split up in dawn attack.

All of these things contribute to fun games, interesting armies and most importantly of all more challenging strategy!

If you want to grow as a player, these are all things you need to take on board. I mean, how many 40k armies can win without enough Troops to capture objectives? Same principles apply in WFB now (thank god).

yabbadabba
29-08-2010, 11:16
Design a dwarf army list that has the least likely chance of winning a game. Then learn to win with it consistently. Thats a real challenge and proves your worth as a general. Or you can face your own army with your opponents.

edit: Or play a huge amount of random scenarios.

Tymell
29-08-2010, 11:18
I've never had a big problem with gunlines: they're a particular kind of army with strengths and weaknesses like any other. They don't make for the most dynamic game, but they're not inherently wrong for this.

I haven't had much 8th ed experience of them, so my advice would probably just be as with any other situation where things are getting dull: vary it up. Different scenarios, units, lists or even whole armies.


This is exactly right - no one army is at any disadvantage, just some of the builds, which is entirely the point of the scenarios.

These days your army needs enough fortitude to last a few turns of Blood & Glory, some decent assault troops to fight for the tower, a suitably sized core unit to hold the tower (a recent mistake of my own tournament list!) and it needs to not rely on one trick ponies, in case your army gets split up in dawn attack.

All of these things contribute to fun games, interesting armies and most importantly of all more challenging strategy!

If you want to grow as a player, these are all things you need to take on board. I mean, how many 40k armies can win without enough Troops to capture objectives? Same principles apply in WFB now (thank god).

QFT.

mr.kislev
29-08-2010, 11:24
I sometimes enjoy the good old feeling of being awesome when you destroy an entire unit with only an organ cannon. But the gun lines starts to get boring after the organ cannons have fired. I prefer massive combats to massive shooting in 8th edition as it is more fun and risky for all involved. e.g 18 Khorne warriors with halberds vs a unit of temple guard.
The carnage is always fun while gun lines are only sometimes fun.

SiNNiX
29-08-2010, 14:24
No, they hinder certain lists (you even say it yourself), not certain armies. And that's the point, I believe. So... why changing the rules to make gunlines weaker more acceptable than making scenarios to force gunlines to also include other stuff? One just makes the army weaker, the other enforces the variety. I support GW's choice fully on the matter.

That's what I meant by "armies". I was referring to lists.

Urgat
29-08-2010, 14:46
My point stands regardless. I take it you didn't like my suggestion to load up on gyrocopters :p

Kevlar
29-08-2010, 17:24
Back in 7th I didn't even bother with cannons. After my 3rd or 4th beer they just couldn't hit anything. Now in 8th they are effective all game! I for one really like like the new measuring rules!

Void Reaper
29-08-2010, 17:38
Gotta say, I'm glad I left my Lizardmen back home if the mono-scenario set up is the nature of Warhammer fantasy tournaments around College Station.

Lord Dan
29-08-2010, 17:45
Same here. And it's already noon... time for the first Guinness of the day!

You start drinking at noon? Well there's the problem-- you're just not intoxicated enough come game time. I think you'd find your evening pick-up games more challenging if you started drinking around 10AM instead.

Sandals
29-08-2010, 18:00
As for the scenarios, 2 out of these 3 places are owned by the same guy (a good friend of mine) who decided the standard, atleast for tournaments, was Battleline.

It's not supposed to be optional anymore. The whole point of having 6 scenarios is that they are all the "standard" scenario, and you really should be playing at least 5 of them on a regular basis. (Watchtower aside)
For instance, What is your armys Fortitude?


Dude I've been playing this game for 12 years and have two other armies that I run around the table with. I think I deserve one where I can just chill for the whole game and win every time, don't you!? :)

I play Ogres, are you saying that I don't deserve an easy win?

I know you're being (semi)amusing, but this just comes across as a smack in the face to your opponant. You expect to be able to do absolutely nothing and still come out with a win. How much fun is that for the guy across the table?


But serioulsy, I personally like the scenarios... I think they're alot of fun.

Then play them.


However, I just don't like how they hinder certain armies' potential. If this was a way to balance gunlines and magic-heavy armies, I think they should've instead dummed artillery and magic down. I don't think people should have to build their list around different possible scenarios they might roll. I just think that's a little ridiculous and a little overdoing it. I know more people will disagree with me than agree with me, but that's what's so awesome about opinions!

Do you think that because you have a gunline that doesn't do well in scenarios?


So I think they're fun, just not great for competetive play. I'm oldschool. I don't like change! :D

EVERYTHING has changed. Change with it and you may have more fun. If i see that army at a tournament, I will shake my opponant's hand and go sit in the bar for a couple of hours and read a book. I'd enjoy that more. I've done that before when I came across VCs in 7th and I was a happier person for it. I'd even be tempted to ask him to pay for some of my entrance fee, as he would be the reason that I wouldn't enjoy one of my games.

But seriously (:rolleyes:) if you hate winning so easily, why not next time swap armies with your opponant and run into all those guns? That should make it more of a challenge!

AngryAngel
29-08-2010, 19:53
What ?!?!?! What do you mean it doesn't take skill to sit back and roll dice ? I've got this whole spin move down with it. I've had people say to watch me roll is like watching a martial art.

Edit: The thing real wrong with gunlines is simply this. There are true gun lines, like the op uses and there are battle formations that have some guns. If your opponents see almost any guns, its instantly gunline cheese. That I think is a little lame, as really dwarves should have some guns, most all the time. They don't have any magic, and limited mobility, guns are the trade off.

However the Op has an over the top amount of guns. Making it a true gun line. Though I feel like I am taking crazy pills as I read the responses. Perhaps I'm one of the only people who see's it. The OP doesn't appear to really want to not take a gunline. So all this advice seems somewhat wasted. It more appears he wants to get some strange form of internet pats on the back for being a super god of gunline excellence.

Thing is, if your lists are literally just pounding your opponents into the ground, and they are also your friends. The lists should change. I mean do you care for your friends or not ? If the scenario is always stacked in your favor, which it is if your not using any of the other scenarios. If you like your army, then just change the list. Take some other units. As other posters have stated, you can mix up your dwarf list without it making the list bad.

If you really do pound your opponents to paste, every single game. Then just change your list, you really would have nothing else to prove. If you never want to actually change your list, and just keep beating your friends down, well I would have to wonder if they are really your friends. To win is great, but if it comes at the enjoyment of my friends in a game we share, I'd rather not win then make everyone else miserable.

The goal of any game is to try and win, the point is to have fun, for both people. If your not doing those two things, your doing it wrong.

Gatsby
29-08-2010, 19:59
It's not supposed to be optional anymore. The whole point of having 6 scenarios is that they are all the "standard" scenario, and you really should be playing at least 5 of them on a regular basis. (Watchtower aside)
For instance, What is your armys Fortitude?



I play Ogres, are you saying that I don't deserve an easy win?

I know you're being (semi)amusing, but this just comes across as a smack in the face to your opponant. You expect to be able to do absolutely nothing and still come out with a win. How much fun is that for the guy across the table?



Then play them.



Do you think that because you have a gunline that doesn't do well in scenarios?



EVERYTHING has changed. Change with it and you may have more fun. If i see that army at a tournament, I will shake my opponant's hand and go sit in the bar for a couple of hours and read a book. I'd enjoy that more. I've done that before when I came across VCs in 7th and I was a happier person for it. I'd even be tempted to ask him to pay for some of my entrance fee, as he would be the reason that I wouldn't enjoy one of my games.

But seriously (:rolleyes:) if you hate winning so easily, why not next time swap armies with your opponant and run into all those guns? That should make it more of a challenge!

But.... 8th IMPROVED everything, they wouldn't have made gunlines MORE viable.... would they?:eek:

Lord Dan
29-08-2010, 21:08
However the Op has an over the top amount of guns. ... So all this advice seems somewhat wasted. It more appears he wants to get some strange form of internet pats on the back for being a super god of gunline excellence.

... If you like your army, then just change the list. Take some other units. As other posters have stated, you can mix up your dwarf list without it making the list bad.

If you really do pound your opponents to paste, every single game ... then just change your list, you really would have nothing else to prove....

The goal of any game is to try and win, the point is to have fun, for both people. If your not doing those two things, your doing it wrong.

This. (Note that "this" is not 11 characters)

Lord Dan
29-08-2010, 21:09
But.... 8th IMPROVED everything, they wouldn't have made gunlines MORE viable.... would they?:eek:

Why do you even come to the fantasy forums? You hate 8th edition, and we hate that you hate 8th edition.

yabbadabba
29-08-2010, 21:18
This. (Note that "this" is not 11 characters) No but this is

:D

langolas
29-08-2010, 21:32
I saw my first gunline at the Ard boys tourney this weekend. I saw Thunderers. Quarrelers. I believe 3 cannons. An organ gun or two. A grudge thrower or two. No warriors. No Hammerers. No Longbeards. No miners. All he did was set up on his board edge, wide formations of ranged weapons and artillery. I think he had some runesmiths as hero choices.

All I can say was - how boring. He just shot his long ranged stuff until his opponent closed and then was forced into HtH. All his opponent could do was run up and eat lead/bolts. Again - boring.

I agree with the majority of these posters. Some ranged is good but make sure you mix of other units. The scenarios are great as well, a little sauce for the goose.

Most important - have fun!

peterb17
29-08-2010, 21:51
Sinnix As the best ever warhammer general can i have your autograph please

Justy
29-08-2010, 23:28
Gunlines are boring, but not worse than turn 1 6dice dwellers/xereus/etc

AngryAngel
29-08-2010, 23:29
This. (Note that "this" is not 11 characters)

Lord Dan, I appreciate your agreement, as always, your a shinning star of wisdom, in the otherwise gloomy night of pointless postings.

SiNNiX
30-08-2010, 00:20
What ?!?!?! What do you mean it doesn't take skill to sit back and roll dice ? I've got this whole spin move down with it. I've had people say to watch me roll is like watching a martial art.

Edit: The thing real wrong with gunlines is simply this. There are true gun lines, like the op uses and there are battle formations that have some guns. If your opponents see almost any guns, its instantly gunline cheese. That I think is a little lame, as really dwarves should have some guns, most all the time. They don't have any magic, and limited mobility, guns are the trade off.

However the Op has an over the top amount of guns. Making it a true gun line. Though I feel like I am taking crazy pills as I read the responses. Perhaps I'm one of the only people who see's it. The OP doesn't appear to really want to not take a gunline. So all this advice seems somewhat wasted. It more appears he wants to get some strange form of internet pats on the back for being a super god of gunline excellence.

Thing is, if your lists are literally just pounding your opponents into the ground, and they are also your friends. The lists should change. I mean do you care for your friends or not ? If the scenario is always stacked in your favor, which it is if your not using any of the other scenarios. If you like your army, then just change the list. Take some other units. As other posters have stated, you can mix up your dwarf list without it making the list bad.

If you really do pound your opponents to paste, every single game. Then just change your list, you really would have nothing else to prove. If you never want to actually change your list, and just keep beating your friends down, well I would have to wonder if they are really your friends. To win is great, but if it comes at the enjoyment of my friends in a game we share, I'd rather not win then make everyone else miserable.

The goal of any game is to try and win, the point is to have fun, for both people. If your not doing those two things, your doing it wrong.

I think someone finally understands the purpose of this thread. Aside from the "pat on the back" comment (I thought I made it perfectly clear that winning every single game with a gunline, like I do, does not take skill at all), this is exactly what I'm getting at. I've been playing Dwarfs for so long. They're my favorite army, both in theme and playability. I've also been using a gunline list since the beginning, as Dwarven artillery is one of two things that got me into Warhammer in the first place. However, now with 8th Edition the way it is, my list is now a cheese list that nobody wants to play and nobody respects. I don't want that; kinda defeats the purpose. Just wanted ideas of how to make a Dwarf army not only strategically viable, but also fun for both players as well.

Lord Dan... you the man, sir. We all know it. :)

Feefait
30-08-2010, 01:48
I find gunlines boring, stale and easy to use. I feel like if that's what you want to do, play 40k. I know it's probably wrong, but you are asking for opinions. Do i think you shouldn't use them? No, everyone has their own choices to make and play styles - I'm not going to tell anyone they shouldn't play their way.

I have played a Skaven horde army for years and got pretty fed up with it. with the new book i;m able to switch things around once in a while and do soemthign different and it's really helped. i've also added a couple armies with very different abilities (LM, Beastmen) to freshen things a bit. You may want to give that a try.

CaptScott
30-08-2010, 01:53
Dwarf gun lines are now cheesy. Time to bring a balanced list.

And this is a perfect reason of why comp will be needed in 8th.

Gorak
30-08-2010, 03:17
Gunlines powerful? HA! I've played many a game of 8th now and of yet to be afraid of gunlines, the problem lies in the fact that when you connect their lines their usaly toast. Now dwarves are a differnt stroy as there quite a bit tougher, but hey I wouldn't stop playing that list, just get your oppents to take better anit gunline stuff like scouts or tough fast cav.

Djekar
30-08-2010, 06:34
Personally all the gunlines I've fought so far in 8th (both empire and dwarfs) have been great for 2-3 turns until my center hits them. I can't imagine what would happen to them if I fielded more fast choices to harry them or screens of stuff. This may be due to my opponents actually rolling the misfire result on the artillery dice giving me at the very least a reprieve. It generally makes them pretty darn mad too.

soots
30-08-2010, 07:43
As a player who chose empire for its versatility, i feel encouraged to go gunline now.

Melee prowess went down the drain with the nerfage of knights. I dont have any elite infantry and my characters are ordinary. It seems every solution for empire now consists of plan A -Cannon or plan B - Mortar.

6th/7th edition i "bait and flanked", hit units with "strong knights" that could break units, hit units with static combat resolution knowing i could withstand a few casualties each turn. But now, all i can do in combat is roll steadfast for a few turns before losing it. I cant go toe to toe with 90% of the elite units in the game with ANYTHING in the empire list bar a stank. But i can shoot them up.

Nearly every empire solution involves a cannon or mortar.

Dwarfs are more flexible than empire now.

itcamefromthedeep
30-08-2010, 15:46
As a player who chose empire for its versatility, i feel encouraged to go gunline now.
I've seen people meet success with Flagellant units and a generous smattering of Warrior Priests. One for the Knights, one for each infantry unit who can take them.

I've seen Greatswords fielded, but I can't attest to their effectiveness.

Empire units still have magic as an option to aid their close combat prowess, such as Lore of Life buffs. If you bring a level 4, though, I'd recommend the Crimson Amulet. That way you can smile sweetly when your opponent casts an Irresistible Dwellers Below on the unit.

Don't give up on close combat just yet.

Aluinn
30-08-2010, 17:22
I've seen people meet success with Flagellant units and a generous smattering of Warrior Priests. One for the Knights, one for each infantry unit who can take them.

I've seen Greatswords fielded, but I can't attest to their effectiveness.

Empire units still have magic as an option to aid their close combat prowess, such as Lore of Life buffs. If you bring a level 4, though, I'd recommend the Crimson Amulet. That way you can smile sweetly when your opponent casts an Irresistible Dwellers Below on the unit.

Don't give up on close combat just yet.

Greatswords are actually really, really good in 8th, in my experience. I would field more of them if the models weren't inexplicably costly, but my unit of 28-30 has served me well so far. Certainly the new combat rules buff great-weapon-armed models with single attacks more than anything else, and Greatswords have further benefits:

-They are Stubborn, with pretty high Ld. Given that they are moderately expensive and thus won't outnumber other units very often, this is a pretty huge benefit, and with the BSB in range they rarely run.

-They have 4+ saves with great weapons, which is fairly unique and makes them far tougher than opponents often expect. Against S3 they're actually extremely resilient.

-They have higher than average WS, which means they often hit on 3s and are almost always hit on 4s.

-They can take an expensive magic standard if you have a General of the Empire.

I field them as either a 7x4 block or a 10x3 Horde, both of which seem pretty good, though I'm starting to think the 10x3 is probably a slightly better formation in more situations.

Aside from Greatswords, Halberdiers make a strong large Horde unit (~50, because they're appallingly fragile, but they put out a lot of damage), and Swordsmen still seem like a great value for being so tough--I think it's often underestimated that they have extra WS and even Elves will not be hitting them on 3s all the time. My block of 30 Swordsmen holds up almost anything for several turns, can can consistently win combat against chumps.

decker_cky
30-08-2010, 18:00
Greatswords also inevitably benefit from hatred since they (along with halberdiers) are the units that benefit the most from the rules.

Spearmen are unimpressive compared to the other infantry, but greatswords, halberdiers, flagellants, swordsmen and even free company have all be solid units in my experience so far in 8th.

AngryAngel
30-08-2010, 18:56
Well I guess if anything this thread shows what a real gunline is, and what a battle formation that has guns is. The distinction will be importnant to remember. Thought for the day, The only thing to fear is failure.

SiNNiX
30-08-2010, 21:01
I think what I will end up doing is ditching the Rulelord/ME character line up and go with Runelord/Thanes/ME. I think I'll also go from 4GT/2BT/4OG to 2GT/4OG. Finally, I think I'll add a unit of Hammerers (in which I'll field a Thane) and maybe another unit of Longbeards, making my infantry 2 units of 30 Warriors, 2 units of 25 Longbeards and a unit of 20-30 Hammerers (haven't decided). I'll probably throw a BSB in the Hammerer unit but it depends on whether or not I want to invest the points there.

Malorian
30-08-2010, 21:05
I think what I will end up doing is ditching the Rulelord/ME character line up and go with Runelord/Thanes/ME. I think I'll also go from 4GT/2BT/4OG to 2GT/4OG.

Just looking in this thread now...


Four organ guns! :eek: Ouch!

So far in our group even though we play 3000 point games we never (so far) take more than 2 of the same rare. No house rule or anything, just something none of us has moved to.

With four organ guns and four grudge throwers I can see what you were putting out so much hurt.

Surprised you took two bolt throwers over a cannon though...

SiNNiX
30-08-2010, 21:13
Surprised you took two bolt throwers over a cannon though...

Yeah, I'm not a fan of cannons. I'm not saying they're not worth their points or anything, but I've been using BT's for so long and I'm just so familiar with how to make them work I guess. 2 BT's was always not only less than a cannon, but the same amount of Special Unit choices (prior to 8th) and I guess I just haven't fully adjusted to the changes (thus the reason I still use a gunline, which I can no longer do).

My favorite thing ever in 7th was BT with Rune of Penetrating and Master Rune of Skewering. It was my 100 point guaranteed Chariot killer in the first turn, hehe. :)

Malorian
30-08-2010, 21:49
Yeah, I'm not a fan of cannons. I'm not saying they're not worth their points or anything, but I've been using BT's for so long and I'm just so familiar with how to make them work I guess. 2 BT's was always not only less than a cannon, but the same amount of Special Unit choices (prior to 8th) and I guess I just haven't fully adjusted to the changes (thus the reason I still use a gunline, which I can no longer do).

My favorite thing ever in 7th was BT with Rune of Penetrating and Master Rune of Skewering. It was my 100 point guaranteed Chariot killer in the first turn, hehe. :)

Cannons just do it for me given their ability to cannon snipe characters (as in smash the units with other units and then take out the character when there isn't enough rank and file for a look out sir).


Back to the original topic, I am against gunlines, but if you aren't finding them fun I wouldn't go to another army, instead I would just slowly transform your list to a more balanced one until you get to the point that you are having fun while still playing them the way you want.

Going to another army is one answer, but it leaves you with an entire army that collects dust until you resolve the original issue.

brynolf
31-08-2010, 00:15
All I know is that Dark elven shooting is really REALLY nasty nowdays...

SiNNiX
31-08-2010, 01:37
All I know is that Dark elven shooting is really REALLY nasty nowdays...

This is true, especially a large unit of repeater crossbowmen with rerolls to hit. :eek:

sulla
31-08-2010, 02:00
This is true, especially a large unit of repeater crossbowmen with rerolls to hit. :eek:At least they only reroll once. And it costs them a character to give them the reroll. So either a squishy fighter or an even squishier mage. charge them with a chariot or some knights and if they get through the stand and shoot, put max attacks on the character for some relatively easy vp's. Or assassinate them with death magic, which they will have little or no protection from.

I've found large units of rxb's (or any large units) to be liabilities in my all comers DE army. One pie plate and they are halved in power. You would have been far better off with multiple small units and avoided combat/baited/sacrificed them to enemy units. For all that they look good on paper, they are only an average unit in combat, and thus one charge away from being turned into wasted points.

rocdocta
31-08-2010, 03:15
i love gunlines. i play VC and Ogres (sometimes dwarves and rarely lizmen and empire).

in 2200 points my ogres have 42 bulls in a total of 3 units. The Maw will be into the enemy by turn 3 at the absolute latest. and not all shooters will be able to nail the same unit of terrain rules are used properly.

to show how effective it is:
no buffs at all
15 bulls + 3 characters (1 has WM6+ ward save for unit)
1st round
say 40 dwarf xbows can draw unimpeded los to my unit (a rare event). normally gunlines hang as far back as possible.
40 x1/3 (long range)x1/2 to wound = 6.66 or 7 wounds. thats 2 bulls dead.

warmachines are hard to work out as there are so many possibilities (and i am at work)
a smack on str4 grudge thrower should hit 9. lets say str9 is auto dead, so 4 wounds from grudge. 3 cannon - say 2 dead each? 6 dead.
2 organ guns do 10 hits so 6 wounds, so all in all 16 wounds. that is 5 ogres.

10+3 dudes left in that block plus the other 15 block and the baby 12 block.

in my turn i charge if any are within 13in range. lets say i cant make it and another round removes another 10 ogres leaving the dudes outside a unit with their 4+ lookout sir roll.

my turn 15 and 12 ogres hit the biggest units. thats 45 attacks 6 str 6 impact hits 6 str 4 stomp and 36 attacks 6 str 5 impact, 6 str 4 stomp respectively. with most dwarves going GWs, they dont even get a chance to strike. thats also without the charcters charging in. No gunline has survived a bull horde that i have played.

but yeah a gunline is boring to play as and vs. plus it makes you a lazy player and a poorer tactical player. dont get me wrong the bull rush doesnt require that much thought either.

Archaon
31-08-2010, 10:29
Last game i played was against a Dwarf gunline with my DE

Got slaughtered pretty good by the Dwarves and never made it into actual combat.

Gun lines have become even more powerful with 8th by just using basic rules.. i shudder to think what will happen once the new armybooks roll out.

Pacorko
31-08-2010, 21:59
.Gun lines have become even more powerful with 8th by just using basic rules.. i shudder to think what will happen once the new armybooks roll out.

Why, all will come to the exact same thing: according to GW gospel, you'll need a lot more figures so you have bigger units and thus become more effective and winz!!!1!

Be it more warmachines so you can splat everything within range, or more cavalry so you can mow down you charge and gets to survive and run, or monsters so you can crush more units faster, or more infantry so you can withstand all of the above pain alot longer and have a chance to win by attrition...

More's the word.

And it is not much of a surprise so I don't see why you should shudder at the thought. :p


Yes, I'm being as cynical as the OP was trying to ingenious about his dilemma.

My answer to you is the same as the one for him: tailor your game so it suits you. Don't tailor yourself to suit what a game's "supposed to be".

Malorian
31-08-2010, 22:02
Last game i played was against a Dwarf gunline with my DE

Got slaughtered pretty good by the Dwarves and never made it into actual combat.

Gun lines have become even more powerful with 8th by just using basic rules.. i shudder to think what will happen once the new armybooks roll out.

Once the starter set comes out next month, and you start seeing a lot more storm banners, I'm thinking the number of gunlines will go down.

Kevlar
01-09-2010, 00:27
Seems to me if gunlines get too popular there are plenty of ways to counter them. An anti-gun line army can be fielded by just about anyone. Maybe the Bretonnian flying circus will be popular in 8th?

Enigmatik1
01-09-2010, 00:41
Seems to me if gunlines get too popular there are plenty of ways to counter them. An anti-gun line army can be fielded by just about anyone. Maybe the Bretonnian flying circus will be popular in 8th?

The question becomes does every army have the tools necessary to counter the crazy gunlines? I'm not sure I could pull it off without an inordinate amount of luck and a healthy dose of Dunce Cap shenanigans.

Kevlar
01-09-2010, 02:15
The question becomes does every army have the tools necessary to counter the crazy gunlines? I'm not sure I could pull it off without an inordinate amount of luck and a healthy dose of Dunce Cap shenanigans.

What army? Most armies have some form of small unit sized, fast troop that can get across the field in a hurry, even without fliers. Fielding a lot of small units spread out decently should allow you to get to his guns before he does enough damage to win by victory points. In most scenarios a gun line will be slaughtered anyway since they can't really capture an objective with a cannon.

Gorak
01-09-2010, 03:26
this is the point I;m trying to make, your gunline isn't too powerfull your oppents just seems to think they don't need to counter it with anything????? I would love to face your gunline o doom! flying doombull, 20 harpies......

SiNNiX
01-09-2010, 03:47
this is the point I;m trying to make, your gunline isn't too powerfull your oppents just seems to think they don't need to counter it with anything????? I would love to face your gunline o doom! flying doombull, 20 harpies......

Ah! Another Beastmen army! Yeah, could be fun. :) Like I said, you got a few more weeks before the models needed for my list revamp are bought, painted and ready to go!

Nkari
01-09-2010, 04:06
Pure gunlines are boring like hell to play vs..

Gunlines that bring just enough warmachines to force you to advance are alot more fun to play vs..

SiNNiX
01-09-2010, 04:11
As soon as I finish my list, I'll post it up in the Army Lists Forums, but it's not gonna be that great as my years of wins with Dwarfs have always come from gunlines, so I'm basically a noob when it comes to using alot of Dwarf infantry. We'll see what happens.

Gorak
01-09-2010, 05:47
I'm sad that you ahve decided to drop your gunline,dwarves are very much a a fluffy choice for the "gunlin" It seems that youn regular oppents just don't care to change up their lists a bit to help deal with the gunline and you are forced to change. I hope if you play in tournies you will stick with the "beardy":rolleyes: army! Luck to you in your new venture and maybe next years ard-boyz you can meat me at Minneapolis, MN wiht you gunline and I'll gice a loss you won't forget!

SiNNiX
01-09-2010, 06:37
Haha! I look forward to it. :) But no promises; haven't looked at my calendar for next year yet.

Loopstah
02-09-2010, 19:20
I just played a gunline today. 2 Cannon, Hellblaster and 20 Handgunners in 1500pts. He did have a unit of Flagellants and two of swordsmen but kept moving them backwards while he shot up my lines.

I managed to get my Prince, BSB and 4 Dragon Princes across the board and into combat. Everything else but 10 archers were slaughtered before killing anything.

Needles to say it wasn't the most fun I've had. :rolleyes:

The_Varangian
02-09-2010, 19:48
with the gunline, try changing tactics a bit. use quarellers with great weapons in a close combat role. the lighter armour (compared to longbeards and warriors) used in a combat role makes it more of a challenge, and besides this, it is quite funny when you get into combat with the enemy, as for the most part, archers/handgunners/e.t.c don't usually go to combat, so it gives the opponent a new experience.

also, if your'e doing a dwarf infantry list, try bugman, a dwarf lord, and longbeard rangers. easy to use as an army, but hard to use well. or so i find.