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Daemonslave
30-08-2010, 22:26
We discussed in another thread about making new rules for magic users, both for the heroic characters and the monsters. I will leave this first post to put any rules that we all agree on.

Daemonslave
30-08-2010, 22:58
Here's what I think the lists of Magic should include [let me know if I have missed anything out];

Heroic Magic users

All Magic users may choose spells from core and or one discipline (ie all core, all one discipline or a combination of both - only one discipline may be chosen)

Core Spells - very general type covers a lot of situations, ranging from healing spells to attacking ones.

Discipline

Bright
Jade
Amber
Amethyst
Celestial
Gold
Light
Grey
Shamanistic
Prayer
High Elf
Tree Elf


Bad Guys

Core (available to all monsters)

discipline

Chaotic
Nurgle
Tzeentch
Slaanesh
Orc
Savage Orc
Skaven
Tomb King
Undead
Beastmen
Dark Elf
Slann

I think the best system to do the new magic is to give each enemy spell caster a choice of magic sets and then give each set 12 spells. Lower level spell casters can roll a D6 on this table whilst the bigger boys can roll D10 - whilst the uber spell casters can get modifiers (ie Lord of Change gets +2 to his roll)

Example: A Pink Horror can pick from the Tzeentch deck or the Core deck. He may cast two spells. He decides to cast one from each deck, but because he is a lower level, only rolls a D6 (thus avoiding the more powerful spells that are 7 and above)

Whereas a master Chaos Sorcerer of Nurgle may choose from Core, Chaotic or Nurgle decks and would roll a D10 on each.

The spells that are 11 and 12 (only available to spellcasters with modifiers would be the really nasty spells capable of really inflicting some damage)

Mr Feral
01-09-2010, 12:17
Hmm, for magic users with multiple choices for disciples, how would you determine which one they use?

Daemonslave
01-09-2010, 17:11
Hmm, for magic users with multiple choices for disciples, how would you determine which one they use?

Well you could roll a d6 to determine it;

ie Beastmen Shaman

1-3 core, 4-6 Beastmen magic

and Chaos Sorceror of Tzeentch

1-2 core, 3-4 Chaotic, 5-6 Tzeentch


or you could just let them choose which deck (makes it easier). The spell they actually cast will still be randomly generated.

What do you think about the idea of having monsters which roll different dice on the same tables? - would save a lot of time and effort rather than having a seperate table for lower level powers and higher level powers, etc.

If the number of spells still seems too few then we could always increase it to 20 spells, allowing lower monsters to roll a D10, etc and the bigger monsters a D20. (Baring in mind though that a monster will have access to core spells as well)

BigRob
01-09-2010, 20:37
WHQ magic is a tricky subject as a good 70% of the spells are useless/not as good as the other ones and wont get used.

IMO, take a leaf from WFRP and have petty magics at low levels, lesser magics at medium levels. These are all the simple spells everyone knows, then when you hit level 4/5 you get access to the colours, pick your colour (and get full access to that spell list upto power 12) or go for a mixed user (the old rainbow wizard) and limit him to level 9/10 spells so you miss all the good ones (like the witchcraft talent in WFRP)

You also need to remember to include a decent prayer list for the religions and include them all. A Priest of Shallaya might not be a fighter, but what a support character!

Daemonslave
01-09-2010, 20:49
WHQ magic is a tricky subject as a good 70% of the spells are useless/not as good as the other ones and wont get used.

IMO, take a leaf from WFRP and have petty magics at low levels, lesser magics at medium levels. These are all the simple spells everyone knows, then when you hit level 4/5 you get access to the colours, pick your colour (and get full access to that spell list upto power 12) or go for a mixed user (the old rainbow wizard) and limit him to level 9/10 spells so you miss all the good ones (like the witchcraft talent in WFRP)

Rainbow wizard? :wtf: Hmmm. So how would you suggest working this in terms of magic decks and spell choice?


You also need to remember to include a decent prayer list for the religions and include them all. A Priest of Shallaya might not be a fighter, but what a support character!

Added a general one. :) However, there are so many religions that it would be impossible to have powers for them all. Which ones would you suggest?

BigRob
02-09-2010, 22:45
Rainbow wizards are mentioned in Dungeonbowl and games from that era, basically a throwback to third edition when magic wasn't done by colour but from a D&D style spell list. The regular "Wizard" character in Quest is a rainbow wizard, he casts spells from many sources.

Priests and Prayers, well lets see

Sigmar, Ulric, Myrmidia, Shallaya, Taal & Rhya, Verena, Morr, Manann and Ranald are the big ones in the Old World, then if you want to go to Kislev you have Ursun, Dazh and Torr, then a trip over to Brettonia for the Lady of the Lake (some will argue she is not a godess though ;) )

Plenty of evil gods and chaos gods and non human gods to throw in the mix if you want, Gork, Mork, Hashut, Sotek etc or even go back for some of the Gods of Law like Solkan but thats dragging the background back a bit.

Daemonslave
03-09-2010, 08:10
Rainbow wizards are mentioned in Dungeonbowl and games from that era, basically a throwback to third edition when magic wasn't done by colour but from a D&D style spell list. The regular "Wizard" character in Quest is a rainbow wizard, he casts spells from many sources.

Priests and Prayers, well lets see

Sigmar, Ulric, Myrmidia, Shallaya, Taal & Rhya, Verena, Morr, Manann and Ranald are the big ones in the Old World, then if you want to go to Kislev you have Ursun, Dazh and Torr, then a trip over to Brettonia for the Lady of the Lake (some will argue she is not a godess though ;) )

Plenty of evil gods and chaos gods and non human gods to throw in the mix if you want, Gork, Mork, Hashut, Sotek etc or even go back for some of the Gods of Law like Solkan but thats dragging the background back a bit.

I don't think we should be too specific when it comes to monster magic - that would just overcomplicate things, but OK if you want seperate god powers for each human (and Elf - could have Khaine, Asuryan, Isha, etc) then we could go for that - a lot of extra work though!

BigRob
03-09-2010, 21:15
Another thing to consider is some skills for the wizard, maybe something like this

Spellcaster
1. Channeling
All spells cost one less power point to cast to a minimum of 1 power.
2. Power Source
You gain an additional D6 Internal Power. You can gain this skill more than once.
3. Battle Wizard
You may wear up to 3 points of armour and still cast spells.
4. Master Healer
All healing spells you cast restore an extra 3 wounds.
5. Dispel
You gain Dispel 4+
6. Mighty Missile
All Magic Missile Spells you cast deal an extra 3 damage points.

These are from my "Quest 2" rules that I have been messing around with for the last few years. I have always thought the idea of Dispel using power to cast was rediculous, simply because any wizard in our games was too busy laying the smack down with his attack magic and healing to remember to cast it

Daemonslave
05-09-2010, 14:24
Whilst I like the idea of allowing the wizard to have skills too, it is important to make sure that he doesn't get too uber. At the moment once the warriors get to the higher levels, most (with a few exceptions) of the monsters they face are then quite weak in comparison, and by allowing the warriors to get even better we could make the game too easy.

Personally I think having extra skills for all the warriors would be a good thing (not just the wizard), but this would require an increase in the abilities of all the monsters they face to compensate.

BigRob
06-09-2010, 08:33
Yes and no, it just needs better thought out skills. TBH a good 50% of the warriors skills are rubbish/low power/useless while 10% are fantastically good. Some warriors are alot better than others.

The monsters also suffer from being rather good at higher levels. I have always found that they will either be weak, feeble and get cut down in a matter of deathblows or they suddenly take down 3 warriors. Obviously some of them just need to get lucky and some of them have spells that can do the job but certainly at the lower 3-4 BLs the warriors should never get taken out of action after the first couple of adevntures, simply by way of having armour but anything with ignore blow/ignore pain or more than 2 damage dice will rip the average warrior apart.

Back on topic, the wizard needs all the help he can get. Given the low amount of power he will get in the first 5 levels (and until he is loaded with orbs of might and charged staves) I think skills are not a problem for him (and my reworking uses common skill tables ala mordhiem to give you even more customisation, so the wizard can choose skills from Academic, Urban and Spellcasting with gaining spells replacing his 4th skill choice).

A full reworking of the spells as given in the rulebook will only help the wizard out, as again 70% of them never get cast and some of them get cast every single turn (I'm looking at you "heal all warriors 1 wound for 2 power").

alex03
21-04-2011, 18:20
If anything the wizard gets too powerful after a few levels. What is the best way to tone him down without changing the core rules too much?

I also agree most spells kinda suck and you see the wizard always end up using the same good ones, burning storm, freeze, healing hands, lifeforce, ect.