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frogmen
30-08-2010, 23:22
How do they fair and how are they best used.

chromedog
30-08-2010, 23:56
How do they Fare?
Badly in most cases. GK are overcosted Space marines that die just as quickly.
DH retinues tend to get you chipmunked in sports and comp (if used) especially if you have inducted guard as well) with the 2nd mystic.

How are they best used?
From January, when the new codex comes out and gives them updated rules.

I personally play them because I like the models and their combat effectiveness is secondary to this. I care little for tournament trophy-hunting (I have 7 of them gathering dust and stopped actively seeking them in the early 90s) so whether or not they are considered 'uber' is irrelevant.

frogmen
31-08-2010, 00:00
So are you saying they're gettin a new codex in january

KingDeath
31-08-2010, 00:00
They are currently best used as allies for other imperial armies.
To elaborate, your average Daemon hunters army is severely overcosted and underpowered, thanks to an outdated codex.

The basic PAGK squad for example has quite a few nice abilites. WS5, S6, 2 attacks, limited resistance to psychic powers. Sounds great does it? Well, no.
A 5man PAGK squad without any upgrades costs only 20 points less than a fully equiped SM squad and dies just as easily under fire. It also has no transport option except from the Landraider....

The Imperial Stormtrooper squad on the other hand is somewhat better. Comparable to IG carapace vets both in price and abilities it also has a transport option. Unfortunately the DH Chimera is much more expensive than the IG one...

Lord Inquisitors as HQ choice are at the very least cheap. They won't win your battles but at least you are not going to pay trough your nose for them.
Since DH HQs still have the old psychic hood they can be usefull if you use them as allies in any other imperial army.

Now let us come to my favourite part of the book, the Fast Attack choices.
Well, they have non. Or better, deep striking PAGK squads, which are (except from the deep striking exactly like the PAGK squads you find in the troops section, are the codex's bad excuse for one.

Well, heavy support then. GK Purgation squads are crap because they are massively overpriced. 35 points for a psycannon...yeah...great idea...can i hunt titans with it? No? Are you on crack?
GK dreads are ok i suppose and so are their landraiders. One could even argue that GK Landraider Crusaders are superior to more "modern" ones because of the older rules for it's Hurricane bolters.
Orbital strikes are pretty sucky because they are completely unreliable.

Now let us get to the elite choices.
Inquisitors: Not realy impressive, they can be a cheap psychic hood if you don't want to take the Lord Inquisitor ( Inqu.+2 Hierophants is cheaper than a Lord Inquisitor who always requires a retinue of at least 3 ). The rest is pretty meh, combat servitors can give you some much needed anti tank weapons but, as so often in the DH dex, they are expensive.

Assassins: Expensive and only situationally useful. They might look great on paper but one should not rely to much on them.
GK Terminators: The one saving grace of the entire damn Codex. Str6 WS5 Termies which strike at initiative ( and still have their stormbolters ) are win.

So, pure DH armies without any inducted forces are currently everything but competitive. They can be fun, good looking and very fluffy, but don't expect to win too much.

*edit* forget the 2 mystics, they are indeed pretty good.

chromedog
31-08-2010, 00:06
Codex: Grey Knights is heavily suggested as a January release. Daemonhunters as you know them will be gone. Mystics definitely.

Sisters of battle will get a WD treatment updating them for eventual codex re-do.
(this is how they and Necrons were also done during 2nd ed. WD first, THEN codex).

frogmen
31-08-2010, 00:15
Ok so what would be the point of an all grey knight codex how would they be different then vanilla sm

chromedog
31-08-2010, 02:51
They are good against a SPECIFIC enemy (that being the daemons).
Against anyone else, they will be less so.

For flavour, mainly. The inquisition is a faction of the Imperium, with its own tactics and operational methods. As different from codex:space marines as dark blood Templar angels are.
Besides, marines sell miniatures. Blingy marines sell more. It's all about the marines to GW - they've set themselves up with a self-fulfilling prophecy.

GW promote marines because they sell.
Why do they sell so well?
Because GW promote them over all other armies.

DinoDoc
01-09-2010, 22:20
DH retinues tend to get you chipmunked in sports and comp (if used) especially if you have inducted guard as well) with the 2nd mystic.Isn't this more an argument about the idiocy of comp scores in tournaments than how bad IQ retinues are?

Emeraldw
01-09-2010, 22:31
They are good against a SPECIFIC enemy (that being the daemons).
Against anyone else, they will be less so.

For flavour, mainly. The inquisition is a faction of the Imperium, with its own tactics and operational methods. As different from codex:space marines as dark blood Templar angels are.
Besides, marines sell miniatures. Blingy marines sell more. It's all about the marines to GW - they've set themselves up with a self-fulfilling prophecy.

GW promote marines because they sell.
Why do they sell so well?
Because GW promote them over all other armies.

This is inaccurate and misleading. To say Grey Knights will only work against deamons is inaccurate. They will be built to be a fully fledged army to work against all opponents and will not merely be there to counter deamons, further, Grey Knights are Anti-Chaos, not just deamons.

The rest about Space Marines is irrelevant to the question asked and I believe simply shows your dislike of Marines.


Ok so what would be the point of an all grey knight codex how would they be different then vanilla sm

Grey Knights are a much smaller force in a gameplay sense. Each Grey Knight comes equipped with a Nemesis force Weapon and a Storm Bolter and supposedly special armor better than a normal marine.

Each Grey Knight is also a psyker and Grand Masters currently come equipped with Force weapons and psychic powers on top of strong close combat abilities. The same is true of Terminators, only they have Power weapons.

Grey Knights also have access to the best gear in the Imperium. They are provided with the fastest ships and the greatest resources in their fight against the Imperium's greatest threat. This can include Imperial assassins and Imperial Storm Troopers, but how much of those that carry over is unknown.

Contrary to the aboves statement, Grey Knights are very different from normal marines. If things are explored as fully as they might be, you can expect an army almost as diverse as Chaos Space Marines are from Normal Marines.

LonelyPath
01-09-2010, 22:58
Most of the units in the current DH codex are - as already mentioned - overpriced and underpowered, however, their Land Raider Crusaders and Inquisitors (and with them, their retinues) aren't that bad. The LRC uses the older LRC rules and they come with extra armour built in. The Inquisitors have access to some petty useful wargear (not alot of it, but some) and those pesky Mystics that allow you to open fire on any enemy units deep striking within a certain (randomly generated) range.

Possibly the greatest boon is their Force Weapons, which thanks to RAW, bypass Eternal Warrior so they can literally instant death anything.

Culexus Assassins are also pretty nifty is allied into a psyker heavy Imperial Guard Army, you can make them very shooty (which is what I did in one game and the guy wiped out 3 times his points cost alone).

If you don't mind every game being a uphill struggle and suffering a high learning curve them DH might be your army, but they are not for beginners.

Oh, I nearly forgot the biggest bonus of the army, the GK models are without doubt (in my opinion anyway) the best looking models in the entire GW range.

If you don't mind putting it off a few months, wait until the new codex and start then instead ;)

mrln68
02-09-2010, 00:42
Oh, I nearly forgot the biggest bonus of the army, the GK models are without doubt (in my opinion anyway) the best looking models in the entire GW range.

If you don't mind putting it off a few months, wait until the new codex and start then instead

And pick up some of those cool models now though...while it is possible that GW's new minis will be really cool - they could also completely and totally screw them up.

Anywho - more to the point. A pure GK DH army can be a bit of a bear to play. They have a lot of really handy abilities and are able to do some fun tricks...but they are not a straight forward army to play.

If you mix them as the Codex was designed though, they are very versatile. The IST are not bad at all. Assassins are a handy tool that can really throw your opponent off their game. Inquisitors and their retinues (both Lords and regular) have are fair amount of flexibility - and again, the abilities work well for sowing confusion with your opponents. And of course the GK themselves are solid. Now add to that the ability to take allies (IG or SM and WH) and you can really build a monster army.

The reason I like them the most though is that you can really build the army that you want (not necessarily one that will win every game). If you have an idea in your head...you can put that idea on the table with DH. An Inq Lord with a dirty dozen retinue. Snipers (or your choice of Assassins). Hardened veterans in the form of IST. Great looking GK force to hammer things home. A band of optimistic newbs as inducted guards. They aren't a normal army - they beg to be converted, customized or otherwise made unique.

RunepriestRidcully
02-09-2010, 06:52
I have found pure grey knights to be suprisingly effective against Tyranids, so much so I think the grey knights work for both the ordo malleus and xenos.

chromedog
02-09-2010, 13:28
The rest about Space Marines is irrelevant to the question asked and I believe simply shows your dislike of Marines.


Someone who dislikes marines WOULD NOT have been playing them for the last 22 years (like I have.) I do actually play SM. I also play DH (with a 3000pt DH/GK army).

A GK-only codex does serve the same purpose as a bloodtemplarAngelwolf codex.
Flavour (but mainly to sell more SM models). GW are a miniatures company that use rules to sell models, not the other way around.

(I don't hate ALL marines, Just BA and SW, but that's an old issue and more to do with their players, than the armies themselves. Hate the playa, not the army and all that.).

LonelyPath
02-09-2010, 13:36
And pick up some of those cool models now though...while it is possible that GW's new minis will be really cool - they could also completely and totally screw them up.

I've recently placed another order for some myself. I thought another 10 PAGK and 5 GKT should see me alright for now. After this I'll add a 3rd GKLRR to them, heheh.

Lord Khabal
02-09-2010, 14:29
I have also bought some of the PAGK and TAGK. They are just beautiful models with so much detail... Even if they do suck gamewise (and are expensive as hell since you cant find them on e-stores and are all metal), in my honest opinion they are THE most beatiful GW models. EVER.
As for competitiveness, terminators are very good. The land raiders and dreadnoughts are slightly cheaper than in other books (with extra armour :)), assassins are meh...
Inquisitors and stormtroopers can be handy with melta spam. 5 IST + rhino (extra armour / smoke) with dual melta are still pretty good. GK are very expensive for what they do... 50pts for a psycannon is too much, but for some reason I allways end fielding 2 :)

And when shot at beyond 9" allways remeber the opponent - test for shrouding!!!

Godzooky
02-09-2010, 14:32
And pick up some of those cool models now though...while it is possible that GW's new minis will be really cool - they could also completely and totally screw them up.

I'm doing the same with Dark Eldar... ;)

mrln68
02-09-2010, 16:29
I'm doing the same with Dark Eldar... ;)

I am honestly hoping for a complete reboot of the DE miniatures. Some of the metal ones are cool...but the plastics are horrific. Badly scaled weapons, atrocious hair...anywho.


And when shot at beyond 9" allways remeber the opponent - test for shrouding!!!

The Shrouding rule has saved me a few times. A bad roll on your opponent can allow you to get into charge range and tear them up without getting plinked away at. It also is a good defense against all the guards long range artillery...as long as you are on a table that is sized properly. Yes - the average roll will be greater than most weapons fire...but it does come into play often enough to be handy.

RunepriestRidcully
02-09-2010, 20:52
I am honestly hoping for a complete reboot of the DE miniatures. Some of the metal ones are cool...but the plastics are horrific. Badly scaled weapons, atrocious hair...anywho.



The Shrouding rule has saved me a few times. A bad roll on your opponent can allow you to get into charge range and tear them up without getting plinked away at. It also is a good defense against all the guards long range artillery...as long as you are on a table that is sized properly. Yes - the average roll will be greater than most weapons fire...but it does come into play often enough to be handy.

the shrouding actually worked? It's a miracle:eek: either that or the end is nigh!
Seriously, in about 5 years of playing Grey Knights, the shrouding has only worked for me about 3-4 times. (mind you one was when Dark reapers were targeting my Power Armour Grey knights)

mrln68
02-09-2010, 21:41
A few times...not many, but a few times - and when it does...it is a glorious feeling. :evilgrin: Last time it was against a Fire Prism (2 linked actually). Couldn't fire...and the next turn I assaulted.

LonelyPath
02-09-2010, 23:17
The Sgrouding has saved me more than a couple of times against nasty shooty opponents like Tau and IG, letting me close the gap and do some harm. Without doubt the funniest was when I had a DS mishap and was placed right in front of a Tau gunline, none of them managed to roll high enough to shot my squad and the closest enemy was only 10 or 11" away, heheh.

grey knights rock
03-09-2010, 05:28
The best way to use them is to have IST charge in rhinos at enemy armour. then use termies to take out the enemies high priority targets. i myself like to use a calidus assassin as a suicide person to take out important enemy characters (no saves whatsoever against ctan phase sword). inquisitor lords can also be a good gun platform if given the right upgrades. in objective based games, the best i can say is kill as much as you can with everything exept troops, and then use IST in rhinos to rush in and take objectives. Hope i helped.

Lord Khabal
03-09-2010, 10:22
assassins are VERY situational (like all assassins) and indeed calidus and eversor (the best IMHO) are suicide models. Its just that if you have a bad roll, they can be completely innefective, something that cant happen in a DH army, where most stuff is overcosted.
I usually run eversor for laughs... getting 10 attacks on assault is allways fun (if I get lucky dice), but competetively I would stay away from them.

I have lots of luck with shrouding... Saved my butt more times than I can remeber but even so I usually end up losing the game, lol...

pick_me
03-09-2010, 13:54
I was just on GW and was wondering if they just pulled the troops? It now looks like they only have the blisters on there. When did they pull the box sets of the GKs and Stormtroopers?

Lord Khabal
03-09-2010, 14:02
I dont believe they actually produce these models anymore... They are just selling their stock. Get them while they last!

grey knights rock
03-09-2010, 16:50
Thats upsetting. the gkpa are some of the best troop models (aesthetically pleasing) being sold by gw. Im kinda sad that they are op now.

mrln68
03-09-2010, 18:36
They are still making them...they just stopped selling boxes because they ran out of boxes and don't want to print anymore (plus they make more off from the troops as blisters). They switched when they went to direct only (a couple months ago...ish). Same time they switched up on the SoB.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=prod810031a&rootCatGameStyle=

The storm troopers (5 man) and terminators (5 man) are still available in boxes while they still have boxes. If I had to guess though...it won't be much longer till they go to blisters only too.

Grand Master Raziel
04-09-2010, 00:37
To elaborate, your average Daemon hunters army is severely overcosted and underpowered, thanks to an outdated codex.

Honestly, the Daemon Hunters army was severely overcosted and underpowered from the moment it was released - maybe more so back then, because it was running against Chaos 3.5 and Codex: Craftworld Eldar.


The basic PAGK squad for example has quite a few nice abilites. WS5, S6, 2 attacks, limited resistance to psychic powers. Sounds great does it? Well, no.
A 5man PAGK squad without any upgrades costs only 20 points less than a fully equiped SM squad and dies just as easily under fire. It also has no transport option except from the Landraider....

I think that was a deliberate design decision. GKs have storm bolters as their default ranged weapon, and psycannons had a move-and-shoot envelope as well. So, PAGKs could pump out a fair bit of firepower while hoofing it. Also, that storm bolter envelope was the one where Shrouding rolls were most likely to be of benefit - much further away, and a player who's familiar with it won't take the chance, much closer and opponents aren't likely to fail that roll. I'm not saying it was a good design decision, just that I can see the mentality that went into it.

Really irks me that PAGKs don't have frag grenades, though. :mad:

These days, you could have your PAGKs shanghai someone else's transport. You could induct some IG Infantry Platoons, have them bring some Chimeras with them, and have your GKs commandeer them. Wouldn't spend a lot of money on that particular list design though, unless you want to have both GK and IG armies for their own merits.


The Imperial Stormtrooper squad on the other hand is somewhat better. Comparable to IG carapace vets both in price and abilities it also has a transport option. Unfortunately the DH Chimera is much more expensive than the IG one...

Well, there's Inquisitorial Rhinos. My ISTs ride in Rhinos rather than Chimeras - I had them available, and they were more reasonably priced.

Also, Forge World has kindly released an online update to Imperial Armor 2 (http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/i/IA2update28AUG.pdf). which includes updated costs for Inquisitorial Rhinos and Chimeras. They're at least semi-official rules, which is good enough for casual play. Let's face it, no one plays Daemonhunters to do well in tournaments.


Lord Inquisitors as HQ choice are at the very least cheap. They won't win your battles but at least you are not going to pay trough your nose for them.

Shenanigans. If you try and turn a Lord Inquisitor and his retinue into any kind of worthwhile fighting unit, you do indeed pay through the nose for them. All the weapons and wargear in the Armory are priced for a S4 T4 character, despite the fact that no one in their right mind would replace a GK Hero's NFW for the options in the armory. Plus, you need to buy specific retinue members to boost the Inqy Lord's stats, so you wind up with an expensive unit with a barely adequate IC accompanied by a unit that can't fight its way out of a paper bag. Unless you're playing a Radical army or are really, really fluff-driven, the Inqy Lord is best avoided altogether.



Orbital strikes are pretty sucky because they are completely unreliable.

Orbital Strikes are basically a 60-80 point tax for anyone dumb enough to use one. I've had my Orbital Strikes do more damage to my own forces than they ever managed to do to my opponents.


Assassins: Expensive and only situationally useful. They might look great on paper but one should not rely to much on them.


The Callidus is worthwhile if only because she allows you to move an enemy unit. That's worth doing even if all you're doing is moving a fire support unit out of a nice firing position. If you choose where she pops up with some care, she can make her points back. Also, she can be fun to field in conjunction with other infiltrating units. For a while, my Radical list included a Callidus and 3 Death Cult Assassins. The trick there was to infiltrate the DCAs somewhere within 18" of an enemy unit, then use Word In Your Ear to move that unit 6" close to the DCAs. First turn charges by the rough equivalent of up to 3 power weapon wielding I5 SM Veteran Sergeants reliably followed. I stopped doing it because a lot of my regular opponents couldn't handle it.



GW promote marines because they sell.
Why do they sell so well?
Because GW promote them over all other armies.

I offer the alternate suggestion that Space Marines sell much better than other armies because they have a much more compelling archtype, they're protagonists in the setting, and they have a much more futuristic look than the Imperial Guard. Just a thought.


Thats upsetting. the gkpa are some of the best troop models (aesthetically pleasing) being sold by gw. Im kinda sad that they are op now.

Well, if GW is seriously releasing a new Grey Knights dex, I think we can reasonably expect a plastic PAGK kit to come with it.

eyescrossed
04-09-2010, 10:56
I hope the plastic kit (if there is one) will be as good as the current models :(