View Full Version : MSU: Can it still be done?

06-09-2010, 16:38
I prefer armies with Many Small(ish) Units for their very flexible play style.
Some claim they are as good as dead because of the introduction of Steadfast.
I think some armies (mainly elves, but also WoC and maybe some others) can still compete at all levels with MSU builds. I have a 3000 point DE list with 19 deployments (no hydra's!!) that got some pretty decent results. No unit costs more than 155 points, except Cauldron Hag and Supreme Sorc.
What worked pretty well in my case were 3 units of 7 witch Elves and 3 of 6 BG.
I think it maximizes their effectiveness, and though you will lose some, they can break down death stars pretty fast when attacking in waves with some support.
(I use a lvl4 Shadow mage and a lvl 2 Metal one).
Other Big advantages are: you always outdeploy your opponents heavily, and superspells like dwellers only have very limited effect.
All opinions on MSU builds, uses and advantages and disadvantages are very much appreciated.

Dark Aly
06-09-2010, 16:42
it still just looks wrong and that is the most important aspect of the hobby to me.

on a more boring note though, the small units give easy VPs for your opponent- including banners and if you go without banners then fortitude is low.

06-09-2010, 16:48
I think It can still be done. You just have to be alot more tactical.

06-09-2010, 16:49
It is not so much the introduction of steadfast that hurts MSU. The things that really hurt are the fact that the enemy will always get to strike back and can strike with 2 ranks from the front.

Previously a DE unit that scored 5 kills would not have to withstand any attacks in return (assuming a 5-wide unit). Now they will have to face 10+ attacks assuming a fully ranked unit.

MSU armies tend to feature glass cannon units. I just do not think they would last long in the attrition fest that 8th edition embodies. MSU was about getting fast kills and that is now much harder. I am not saying MSU is dead but I think it is a lot harder to pull off now and will require some larger units as back-up for staying power.

06-09-2010, 16:56
I think It can still be done. You just have to be alot more tactical.

Which is part of the fun imo. I see it a bit as guerilla warfare. But in 8th, you need High I troops with high damage output, so not every army can do it. Some spells can help.
I destroyed a unit of 18 temple guard with Slann and scarvet in 1 turn, by sending 2 chariots, and 7 Witch Elves. The Witches were boosted with an extra attack from the Cauldron and, more importantly, Okham's Mindrazor. That was 28 S8 attacks with Hatred, 2d6+2 impacts at S5, 4 hatred S5 hits and 4 S4 hits. Not bad for 1 70pt and 2 100pt units.

Giving away points for 6-10 very low point cost units is not that bad if you can really go for the high point Death Stars.

06-09-2010, 17:02
I think HE's have an advantage with MSU's due to their no limit on special choices.

In 2000 you can have 10 units of 6 Swordmasters running about the place quite happily.

Units with high offense and low protection work well as they do not make the most obvious target and thus can wreak havoc unmolested if unprioritised.

06-09-2010, 17:34
Most armies that did well with MSU (DE, Daemons, Ogres, ect.) can still easily win even against horde tactics in the new edition. Having played now 20+ ogre games i prefer to use gnoblar horde but ive tried flat out just a few 7th lists and it works, although now more often than not ive had to use the scraplauncha convoy to think out enemy bricks.

One thing that has helped the concept though is the largest sized units casually we play with around here often times is still only 25-30 at the most. MSU armies can dish out an extreme amount of punishment and cause enough casualties that as long as you have a rank bonus somewhere in the army you can break people with combo charges. Flee tactics have become a bit harder to do with the various tweeks however its still works just fine, just less margin for error.