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View Full Version : UKGT winner, carbon copy list???



kaptin_blacksquigg
07-03-2006, 12:46
Hey, anyone who was at UKGT see the list of the eldar guy that one?
Was it a copy/paste seer list>?

Fixer
07-03-2006, 13:43
I didn't see the army, but I was told that it was an exact CC of the list posted on GW's site.

Ulthwe, 1 falcon, three WLs, huge council, 6 Squads with SC, 1 Vyper.

kaptin_blacksquigg
07-03-2006, 14:16
Sigh, roll on new eldar codex

Insane Psychopath
07-03-2006, 20:08
The Eldar army that won was my friend Duncan. Befoer anything said he had that list planned for a long time useing the Eldar tank that Heavy Support. I face his change list since right after the heats 1 was done.

He is a good player yet hard to win againdt, hell in all 100+ games I had against him, I never had a win nor even came close to a draw. He is one of the best gamer I face & help me so much with tactic as well as teaching me about Grand Tournament play.

IP

Brother Edwin
07-03-2006, 21:31
It was, this is because that is the best eldar list concevble.

Kahadras
07-03-2006, 22:08
It was, this is because that is the best eldar list concevble.


Still it seems a little boring though just copying down the 'best' Eldar list, painting up the models and going along to the next GT. It seems like inovation and experimentation are truely dead when it comes to some armies.

Kahadras

Insane Psychopath
08-03-2006, 06:30
07-03-2006 22:31
Brother Edwin It was, this is because that is the best eldar list concevble.

No, my friend been useing that list since after Heat 1.

Brother Edwin
08-03-2006, 07:44
Still it seems a little boring though just copying down the 'best' Eldar list, painting up the models and going along to the next GT. It seems like inovation and experimentation are truely dead when it comes to some armies.

Kahadras

Not tottaly. Some squads can still be tryed out and used well, for example I used CTM on the falcon than noone else uses. Plus some people do well with warp spiders and storm guardians.

Kahadras
08-03-2006, 08:21
Not tottaly. Some squads can still be tryed out and used well, for example I used CTM on the falcon than noone else uses.

Still the difference is minimal. Normaly its just a unit for a unit (or two). So say drop a couple of Starcannon squads for some Warp spiders. Drop a Starcannon squad for better upgrades on you Falcon etc.

Kahadras

Fixer
08-03-2006, 10:13
In the end it all ends up as a cost/benefit analysis.

Starcannons, Wraithlords, Brightlances and Seer Councils are incredibly versitile and points efficient. As are Obliterators, Vindicators, basilisks, defilers, assault cannons and Land Speeder Tornados. If you go for other forces you are in effect giving yourself a competetive disadvantage.

So, we end up with tournament army lists that are all incredibly similar with the same equipment being used and the most successful army lists being near identical.

The internet has frustrated things further since now people can head online to see competetive army lists and we have a bunch of forums discussing strategies.

Unless we see GW bring in something akin to 'hotfixes' for tournaments (eg, restriction on number of Wraithlords, points increase for items, only so many Landspeeder Typhoons.) We'll probably see that the tournament lists will be near identical again.

I did hear a rumour that Seer councils in the next tournament will be restricted to 10 members only though. Which can only be a good thing. The bad news of course, is if this turns out to be true, we wont have a new Eldar codex until past the opening heat in Autumn.

Darkseer
08-03-2006, 10:23
It sounds like the new Eldar Codex has a lot to fix and Iron Warrior armies need to be restricted, thrown out, or receive a new FAQ on the GW site with amendments.

kaptin_blacksquigg
08-03-2006, 12:31
I for one think that the generic seer list is the one major thorn left in the side of GTs. While IW and mecha marine lists also do very well, it is rare to see two identical list of either of these armies, unlike seer lists.

I for one can't wait for the next GT finals (althou the heats will still be teaming with seer) and see how many people play eldar one the precious seers and star cannons and got a good thump with the nerf stick. Even wraith lords are fine once you remove the star cannons (or make them more balanced). It'll be the first torni in a while that I'll be able to bring what I belive to be the best list (not sure what it will be depending on the exact torni rules) without making a carbon copy of last years winner. Generalship might actually be the most important factor in winning the 2005-2006 GT :)

To IP

The Eldar army that won was my friend Duncan. Befoer anything said he had that list planned for a long time useing the Eldar tank that Heavy Support. I face his change list since right after the heats 1 was done.

He is a good player yet hard to win againdt, hell in all 100+ games I had against him, I never had a win nor even came close to a draw. He is one of the best gamer I face & help me so much with tactic as well as teaching me about Grand Tournament play.
IP
I'm sure your friend is a good player and winning GT is no easy feat even with that silly list, but I'd love to read an honest torni report from him to find out how many of his opponents were simply destroyed by weight of starcannon fire and giant seer councel, not good generalship. I met someone in heat one playing a similar list that had been playing 2 WEEKS!! He sure as hell didn't win, but he did qualify for the final purely on the strength of the list his friends had given to him and said, this is the best army. He didn't know the mission special rules or how cover worked, but got 4/6 victorys simply by point and click star cannons while charging with the seer councel :wtf:
.

Kaptin Blacksquigg
"Seer Councels are for people with alternitive lifestyles"

Insane Psychopath
08-03-2006, 13:02
I'm sure your friend is a good player and winning GT is no easy feat even with that silly list, but I'd love to read an honest torni report from him to find out how many of his opponents were simply destroyed by weight of starcannon fire and giant seer councel

My friend would do a report if he could, but dose not have Internet access.

The Castigators
08-03-2006, 13:24
I played him in round 2.
I wish I could say that he beat me with tactics, but sadly his Seer Council went through two squads of Noise marines and a Dread Axe Wielding Daemon Princess simultaneously for the loss of 10 Warlocks......I wouldn't mind but I'd only given the Princess a Dread Axe because I knew there would be a lot of Seer armies, unfortunately rolling ones to wound still does nothing, Dread Axe or not :(
The rest of our armies played out a nice tactical game, but once the council got into close combat all pretence of a tactical game went out of the window.

Not an army I'd wish to face again any time soon.........I just hope all these Seer armies paid a lot of money for their models because their days are numbered :D

Brother Edwin
08-03-2006, 18:28
You are perfectly capable of destroying the seer council with your army, it is called fued by pain a dreadaxe and a 2+ save. You cant really complain about seer councils when you have acces to that.

The Castigators
08-03-2006, 19:18
There are plenty of ways to deal with a Seer army Eddy, just because I have access to it doesn't mean I have to be a complete WAACer and take it.

We have opposing view points on how the game should be played, so perhaps it's best we agree to differ or wait for a few years until you're old enough to see that it's not a sport, but a hobby.

It's odd how you saw me all weekend and yet refused to say hello (even though I said hello to you) and yet you have no problem saying something to me by computer....

Brother Edwin
08-03-2006, 20:52
There are plenty of ways to deal with a Seer army Eddy, just because I have access to it doesn't mean I have to be a complete WAACer and take it.

We have opposing view points on how the game should be played, so perhaps it's best we agree to differ or wait for a few years until you're old enough to see that it's not a sport, but a hobby.

It's odd how you saw me all weekend and yet refused to say hello (even though I said hello to you) and yet you have no problem saying something to me by computer....

Sorry its just I know half the people there, if I happend to have bumped into you I would of course have said hello.


He sure as hell didn't win, but he did qualify for the final purely on the strength of the list his friends had given to him and said, this is the best army.

That is why I encourage everyone to take the best list they can conceve. I only take WAAC lists so that if I face like you said a inexpernced person with a hard list he wont beat me since my list is equaly WAAC'y thus if I really am a better player I should win.

green hell
09-03-2006, 13:39
What does WAAC stand for?

kaptin_blacksquigg
09-03-2006, 13:46
Win At All Costs

Brother Edwin
09-03-2006, 17:38
Ie units are taken for how effective they are.

WanderingRogue
09-03-2006, 17:58
Outlawd from:
warhammer.org
warhammer-empire
40Konline
tauonline


cant we add to this?:rolleyes:

Win at all cost would be fine if every codex were equally balanced - unfourtuantly some are not - thats why you end up with seer councils & IW everywhere cos if you want to WAAC then their no brainers.

I say that with conviction - no brainers, i like the cut and thrust of tactical debate and the merits of units in certain situations and combinations. Seers concils are just "i have one i therefore have an advantage" - detracts from the purity of the experience id think.

If you WAAC then fair enough then mission acomplished - but id like to stick of sparkle in the army and still win

Brother Edwin
09-03-2006, 20:40
cant we add to this?:rolleyes:

Yes I was banned from a few minor forums as well.


Win at all cost would be fine if every codex were equally balanced - unfourtuantly some are not - thats why you end up with seer councils & IW everywhere cos if you want to WAAC then their no brainers.

Not really. I can make a powerful list from any codex. However I agre guard, daemonhunters and dark eldar are weak.


I say that with conviction - no brainers, i like the cut and thrust of tactical debate and the merits of units in certain situations and combinations. Seers concils are just "i have one i therefore have an advantage" - detracts from the purity of the experience id think.

However against people who prefer to play the game rather than complain about the game these armys are not a problem. I have no problem with seer councils or IW with ANY of my armys. If you lose to these armys it is a case of next time play better.

f you WAAC then fair enough then mission acomplished - but id like to stick of sparkle in the army and still win

Use whatever you want.

jigplums
10-03-2006, 18:17
People often comment that the seercouncil is too good for its points and that its a no-brainer and i do totally agree. However it also goes hand in hand that eldar have probably the worst troops in the game. Guardians. They have in general expensive hvy weapon that is not nessacarily as affective as other armies equivilents poor bs easy to kill. Sure starcannons are good, but a brightlance is not as good as a lascannon in most situations, costs more, has worse bs, less access to twin-linked and less access to overall. when seercouncil get nerfed, guardian should be fixed. At the moment they are no more than 90 point starcannons which die very very easily.
Wraithlords aren't any more undercosted than predators. Vypers are crap bs, highly fragile landspeeders. Falcon are passable for their cost but the poor bs really, really affects them. They arent imo as good a tank as the hammerhead, which cost less, although the merits of both are argueable.

Fixer
11-03-2006, 02:25
The entire Eldar army list is out of date, contradictory to army background. Half the army far outperforms it's stated purpose for cost, the other half is far too inneficient.

However, you're downplaying the effectiveness of Eldar heavy weapon platforms. Remember that they can also move and shoot, somthing you can't do with a marine lascannon marine.

Then, you have the craftworld Eldar lists. Ulthwe in this case gives bonuses to two guard squads for an increased BS at no extra cost.

The biggest issue with Wraithlords is that they are essentially a bargain price durable super dreadnought, and this unit in the mix of the Eldar's other common competetive units gives them an large tactical advantage. :cheese:

jigplums
11-03-2006, 10:12
ultwe get 2 black guardian squads. It makes them ALMOST worth their points. Yes the platforms can move and fire which is pretty much essential as any armies shooting can cripple/destroy the unit.

comparing wraithlords to drednought is somewhere people go very wrong. They aren't drednoughts, they are wraithlords. Look at what a wraithlord can do in a game and thats where its points cost comes from. With a starcannon, the only weapon i think people can possibly have issue with in the eldar armoury. Shooting with its bs 4 should hit twice a turn and if against marines will kill on 2's against opp's in the open. so will kill just under 2 marines a turn. in cc it will hit marines on 4's, kill on 2's. less than 1.5 marines a turn. so in a 6 turn game, if marines are in the open or they get into cc early they will likely kill a huge 10 marines roughly. Not exactly broken imo. Give it a brightlance and it can target armour and maybe do better. then again maybe not.
It has disadvantages over the armour of things like dred's as well[as thats what you compare it too] Brightlance isn't as good as Lascannon unless its used against av14. dred las is also twin-linked. Most importantly imo dred is elite so can be combined with other armour to create a list that cuts the affectiveness of many of their opponents weapons. can be affected by str 5[that 12 is immune too] and many weapons thats are very affective vs high T models, like sniper rifles, agoniser, dredaxe, plaguesword, forceweapon[if furious charged] etc... When compared to things that actually forfill a similar role[tough hvy support that draws fire] a predator or vindicator is immune to starcannons that means most eldar weaponry in so called copy paste lists wont affect them. Has more firepower, that is more reliable, and can forfill 2 shooting roles in one model with lascannon, hvy bolter. or if you want to counter wraithlords a 3 lascannon load out will do you very well.

Its a very old arguement but personally i don't think WL's are all that, Especially when were looking at vs marines that have loads that can counter them.

Fallen Angel
11-03-2006, 10:57
i agree with the skewed eldar army list - it just makes them way too predictable. Oh well roll on winter 2006!!

Tom - Heretic
12-03-2006, 18:28
Pfft....I'm so going to be trounced at carnage. All infantry guard, heavily themed and no regard paid to effectivness.

just out of interest, do "WAACers" as you put it, look down on players like me? I must admit that I'm just in it for the best army trophies ;)

jigplums
13-03-2006, 14:43
all infantry guard are a sick list and one many power armies will find difficult to face. WAACers dont really look down on non-WAACers in general. Just an easier win for them to notch up

Gunny B#2
17-03-2006, 20:48
"...look down on players like me?....."

So what if they do! You're there to have fun and not worry too much about top ten or top three finish. Besides, you might surprise youself and come 2nd with a seriously non-WAAC army......

Anvils Hammer
17-03-2006, 21:25
all infantry guard are a sick list and one many power armies will find difficult to face.


err.... we are not talking about a typical all infantry guard army,

we are talking about toms army.

his army is based on the british red coat guys in the film Zulu.

he has 4 infantry squads armed with nothing but lasguns IIRC, because its not fluffy for them to have heavy and special weapons.
The army also includes ogryn's and 5 rough riders, not the most competative units in the codex.

Tom - Heretic
18-03-2006, 13:33
*nods* yeah, though it's been changed somewhat, it's still woefully uncompetetive. About 70 models and only 9 heavy weapons. Gulp!

Ah well, I consider it successful if I actually remember the first two games of a tourney through the obligatory hangover :).

Fixer
20-03-2006, 08:22
I think i can remember seeing that army at Damocles. Is it the one with the Chimeras converted to look like robotic Elephants?

Tom - Heretic
20-03-2006, 14:47
Nope, no-one has seen this one yet. It's unveiling shall be at carnage, and maybe sold on ebay afterwards. Maybe expanded to having some cool elephant mounted cannons (as leman russ BT's) Who knows?