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-Grimgorironhide-
28-09-2010, 04:54
Greetings.

I'm currently re-reading the silmarillion and it mentions (In the War of wrath)that along side balrogs, orcs, dragons, werewolves etc their was mentioned thousands of other evil demons joined the war.

My question is if anyone knows. What exactly were these demons.
i.e were they like Ungoliant or lesser balrogs (corrupted maiar), or something completely different.

Any comments are appreciated.

cheers.

ForgottenLore
28-09-2010, 06:48
I would expect them to be lesser corrupted Maiar.

Whitwort Stormbringer
28-09-2010, 19:14
I'm pretty certain that there's no more information on them than what you have there, but lesser corrupted maiar would be my answer, too.

Exactly what a lesser corrupted maiar would look like, or have the power to do, is anyone's guess. Realistically their abilities and appearances would probably vary quite a bit.

Nuada
28-09-2010, 21:11
I can't find a reference to the word "demons" being used in the War of Wrath. Or werewolves. I thought the evil side was orcs, balrogs and men. Many of those men were Easterlings.

Could you please give us a quote Grimgorironhide :)


If they are lesser maiar demons, they are probably Balrogs.

de Selby
28-09-2010, 21:18
I think this covers things like werewolves and vampires (both of which are hinted at IIRC). Was Carcaroth supposed to be one of the lesser maia for example?

Nuada
28-09-2010, 21:29
I think this covers things like werewolves and vampires (both of which are hinted at IIRC). Was Carcaroth supposed to be one of the lesser maia for example?

Could do, i forgot about those creatures. Not sure i'd call them demons though.
The werewolves were bred from wolf pups by Morgoth, and then inhabited by a lesser maia spirit

-Grimgorironhide-
28-09-2010, 23:29
I can't find a reference to the word "demons" being used in the War of Wrath. Or werewolves. I thought the evil side was orcs, balrogs and men. Many of those men were Easterlings.

Could you please give us a quote Grimgorironhide :)


If they are lesser maiar demons, they are probably Balrogs.

Ah sorry, Know that I look I don't believe I read of them in the silmarillion but I believe they were listed in the HOME for Morgoths forces in the war of wrath. I don't have the volumes with me so I can't quote it but I vividly remember them being listed.

Here's the list of his forces from lotr wiki if that helps (Not sure on how reliable it is though)

"The remainder of the Dark Powers; 1,500,000 Orcs, 1,000 Balrogs, 100,000 Wolves and Wolf riders, 1000 flightless Dragons,thousands of other Evil Demons,Serpents and Wraiths of Angband. Later reinforced by 1000 winged Dragons. "

Here's another quote as well.

"Dread creatures that ranked among the most powerful of Morgoth's servants. The most feared of demons were the Balrogs, Maiar seduced to Melkor's service in the beginning of the world, but it seems the Dark Lord also had other lesser demons at his command."




cheers.

Nuada
29-09-2010, 00:04
I found your first quote here ... http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Great_Battle_%28War_of_Wrath%29


I think it's a bit of poetic license, he's also added an army list for the good side ............. He's listed 450,000 Elves, 50,000 Edain and 600 Maiar. Later reinforced by around 1000 eagles, and The Valar
I think this is guess work, i don't know of any army lists for Silmarillion battles. But i don't have every single Tolkien book, so someone might correct me there.



Can't find the location of your second quote

Iracundus
29-09-2010, 04:31
In Tolkien's behind the scenes writings and musings, he proposes that Orc legends of immortal Orc kings or great chieftains could be lesser corrupted Maiar.

Certainly this would fit in with the forms taken by lesser Maiar such as the Istari. They are still mortal forms that can be killed by violence even though they don't die of old age.

It seems only the Valar or powerful Maiar clearly take on supernatural forms, between the flaming Balrogs or Melkor/Morgoth's first ever incarnate form which was that of a walking icy mountain crowned with fire (i.e. a walking volcano).

Whitwort Stormbringer
29-09-2010, 06:37
Although I don't recall exact army lists being given either (in the Silmarillion or in the Histories of Middle-Earth), I'm a bit skeptical of the numbers given by the LotR Wiki, especially since they don't cite any sources on their page.

Although the battle was indeed supposed to be massive (the largest in Middle-Earth), one thousand balrogs and two thousand dragons seem like kind of a ridiculous numbers.

Nuada
29-09-2010, 14:13
one thousand balrogs and two thousand dragons seem like kind of a ridiculous numbers.

Yeah i agree. Surely he's spent too many on his Rare Formation choices there :D

I think there's meant to be loads of Maiar in Lorien? but i could be mixed up with something written in Merp. From what i remember they didn't have a physical form, invisible to the elves.

Whitwort Stormbringer
30-09-2010, 01:59
Yeah, I do think there are supposed to be many maiar in Lorien, and they don't have definitive physical forms normally (although I think after the great sundering/fall of Numenor and all that Sauron lost his ability to shape-shift).

However, I don't think it's as simple a matter as taking whatever shape they please whenever it suits them, either. For instance, I don't think just any maia would be able to waltz along for the battle and decide "hey, I think I'll be a balrog/dragon for this one."