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View Full Version : Our worst gaming session in a decade. 8th ed rant



Darkspear
18-10-2010, 05:11
We plan for a mass game 2 months ago. It is a 3 players per side game with 6000 points per side. It is a coastal landing sometihng akin to the battle at Omaha beaches in WW2 (fantasy version of course).

We spend the next few weeks painting the models for the event.
We booked a room 1 week in advance.
We paid the money for the room, food.
We prepared the terrain and loaded the cars with all the goodies.

We arrive at the room early that morning, in the midst of a busy work schedule. We spend two hours loading the equipment and setting up the table, deploying the armies.

We started the game, there was not much action as the invaders are still struggling out of the water. There are some light skirmishing and casualties on both sides. My friend casted a comet with irressistable force.

Turn 2-3, the invaders got onto land. still minimum casualties. My friend then cast another comet with irresistable force for the fun of it. The defenders march forward and ready to repel the attackers in the subsequent turns. Everyone expects a big fight...it is the climax.

turn 4. BOOM! The Comets landed...we rolled well for distance and most of the invader forces are wiped out.

Game over. We spend so much time, effort and money on this fun gathering and it ended with a silly gaming winning spell. Being inexperienced 8th ed players ( we still have the old 7th ed mentality), we never thought the comet will make such a big difference. So it is all over...just like that.

Everyone thinks that it is a waste of time. Now we have to rack our brains on how to prevent such tragedy from happening.

riotknight
18-10-2010, 05:29
If you planned such a great day, why not plan for such eventualities? Much like the current issue of WD, where you have reinforcements.

sulla
18-10-2010, 05:33
2 irresistable force comets... quite lucky really. For them to have such a big effect was good for him too. I usually beat it out of the comet zone with my troops as fast as possible.

Here's a few thigs to make the game smoother; 1) play balanced forces on each side. No crazy armies totally skewed one way or another. Make sure of this by randomising who will team with who after you set up the table. 2) Ban all items/abilities that guarantee or modify IF/miscasts. Make players get IF the old fashioned way... by throwing lots of dice and hoping. That way, if they don't get it, they have to worry about the feedback scroll. Even if they do get it, they have to worry about the consequences. No puppet or cupped hands or whatever to help them out. 3)This last one is optional, but I don't think it hurts the game too much if you reduce the duplicate special and rares by one; in other words, in sub 3k forces, only one of each rare choice and only two of each special.

Follow these guidelines and you reduce the chances of a total mismatch. BTW, these things happend just as badly in 7th. I remember an 8K vs 8k battle I played and my opponent had about 10 pd more than my dispel, maxed artillery and fanatics. It was predictable how it would play out from the moment we revealed our forces.

Lord of Divine Slaughter
18-10-2010, 06:09
Yeah, flukes like this happened just as much in 7th as in 8th, so its a rather poor '8th is rubbish' -rant.

soots
18-10-2010, 06:24
Working as intended...

Plan your next day and cross your fingers.

It happens 3-4 times more often in 8th edition, but you can still get some good games in.

Welcome to 8th edition btw ;)

Kalandros
18-10-2010, 06:48
What kind of armies did you guys have to lose to simple Comets? Seriously. Where's your big blocks of troops?

Sanjuro
18-10-2010, 06:55
What kind of armies did you guys have to lose to simple Comets? Seriously. Where's your big blocks of troops?

He said they still have the 7th ed mentality. Big blocks of troops (in the 8th ed sense) wasn't very common in 7th ed.

gaarew
18-10-2010, 06:57
Everyone thinks that it is a waste of time. Now we have to rack our brains on how to prevent such tragedy from happening.

Dwarfs vs. Dwarfs...

Djekar
18-10-2010, 07:01
Why not just reset the battle and try again? I've done that a few times, albeit not with such a sizable game. But I mean, if most of the models were already out anyways and you already had the room booked ...

larabic
18-10-2010, 07:02
Should have set up switching sides, defenders become attackers.

Darkspear
18-10-2010, 07:06
We thought and discussed about the game this morning and generally we agreed that the invaders need to be able to recycle their troops; and the game need objectives to force the defenders to move too. I remember vaguely that back in the 6th edition lustrian campaign (which lead to us making the coastal terrain boards in the first place years ago), the coastal landing scenario rewarded the defenders for reaching the enemy's deployment zone in the water. I remember my corsairs charging into the water back then LOL.

We are going to do the same scenario again, this time a 40k version (Imperium vs Chaos). If the 40k version is a success we will adopt some of the rules for the fantasy rematch. Somehow we got a feeling that 40000 years in the future, the battlefields will be less bloody. :)

Kalandros: we had the big blocks. The comets landed on them. We rolled nearly maximum range and no of hits. Most of the blocks end up with less than 10 figures remaining. That plus some random arrows from my h

Gaarew: We had dwarves...myself..charging out of the water. One cute thing abt that game (one of the better moments) was that my dwarves cleared the beach faster than my skaven and druchii allies (yes it is weird...we determiend our teams randomly as we got too many good guys). Some other funny things that happened was how the invaders deploy their warmachines on rocky outcrops in the middle of the water...really amusing. I suppose despite the anti climax there were some enjoyable parts of the game after all.

Avian
18-10-2010, 07:47
I don't get it. Given that the Comet now doesn't get bigger the longer you have to wait, they can be reasonably easy to plan for. You shouldn't end up blasting your own units unless you cast them really close to the front line.

theorox
18-10-2010, 08:00
What the heck...? :wtf:

This might be the bizzarest thread ever. How in the world did that happen? A comet can't reasonably kill 1000 points of troops unless extremely lucky and the troops extremely bunched, can it? Or is it absurdly more devastating than it seems?

Second issue, why did you try a landingmission when you are so new to the game? Being stuck in the water seems...like a to harsh a scenario.

Also, i feel for you guys and the bad luck you had. :( I hope you try again in a more balanced scenario. :)

Theo

Lazarian
18-10-2010, 08:51
Comet isnt that large of an area all things told and the damage is very random. I agree with most people on here I would of had a judge or someone to call shenanigans if it looked like some bizarre ability or something was going to ruin such a spectacular amount of prep work.

We had a homebrew scenario exactly like this we have tested a time or two and got it pretty much down pat. We gave off board warmachines to both sides and gave the attacker 1st turn and more warmachines (to represent flotilla or reinforcements in the form of mortars, cannons, repeater bthrowers or stonethrowers). Also to represent the attacking benefits only have the water really effect the 1st turn (only be ~6 inches in at the most) and give them 1st turn.

It does seem like a fair bit of luck as well, we find in the larger games far less magic happens since many of the armies can load up on dispel dice volume, leading to very little going off. Rolling two irresistibles would be bad luck as well since there is never enough dice to go around unless you specifically were using something that generated extra dice or only let one caster have at all the dice.

Regardless 8th has some crazy moments however magic is only one of them. Its a bit more random but essentially its as destructive or less destructive in scope comparatively to 7th where a few armies had such an imbalance you watched their phases go on for a while and solo your army (VC and Tzeentch daemons come to mind).

We played a 5k game/side with two 2500 point armies today that saw one player (Orc army with Grimgor) roll 4 flubbed animosities, a tripped giant and two failed charges in one turn. His empire ally flubbed the two steamtanks he was running (anything but a 6 makes them work, both 6s) and failed two charges in his own right. Their game was essentially over and put us in mop-up form after their top of the 2nd debacle. We played on but they got picked apart rather harshly after rolling missteps like that which had nothing to do with the magic phase.

Leogun_91
18-10-2010, 08:54
If you planned such a great day, why not plan for such eventualities? Much like the current issue of WD, where you have reinforcements.
He answered that allready. They didn't thought that could happend to such a degree.

Yeah, flukes like this happened just as much in 7th as in 8th, so its a rather poor '8th is rubbish' -rant.It's hardly a 8th sucks thread, it happend due to inexperience of the new edition and he admits this. He felt like sharing a dissapointment though and there is nothing wrong in that.

Darkspear
18-10-2010, 09:00
yeah avian, they are placed in strategic locations at the front line where we are all bunching up for the titanic close combat battle. And yes most of the soldiers killed are the expensive models or that cannot get away in time ie Druchii and Dwarves. Every unit gets 2d6 plus no of counters worth of hits and we are seeing more than 10 hits in each unit. and some units were hit twice.

It does not helped when one of the comets exploded right at my opponent's subsequent next magic phase so my short guys cannot escaped in time, this is the one that did the most damage. These are the upgraded versions of the comets so they are resolved at S10 and S6 respectively ouch. My friend's 2 x 12 druchii crossbow men were taken out in a turn. My hammerers were caught in two comets.

And yes it is a tough battle (a beach landing) and we do not expect to win and merely want to do our own version of IoB. Basically we are all still quite new and as I mentioned we do not expect the comet to have such a big impact. I am not sure about my friends but i thought the comets were s4 or the most s5 so my jaws job when i was told that it is 2+ to wound my guys.

Of coz with hindsight we can think of many ways to reduce the damage but the main issue we had is that the damage is too significant.

drear
18-10-2010, 14:49
you could replay it only allowing lvl 2 mages? it will stop such silly large spells being thrown on the first turns.

also you say some units were left after the comets hit, did nobody take life magic to regrowth them?

Leogun_91
18-10-2010, 15:08
also you say some units were left after the comets hit, did nobody take life magic to regrowth them?That was not an option with dwarfs, darkelfs and skaven as the three armies.

oldschoolmonk
18-10-2010, 15:55
You played a scenario where the invaders weren't forcing combat by turn 4. Expect them to lose to shooting and magic in that situation. Its not 8E fault, you played the wrong scenario.

Reasons: you could have had a 6 token comet by then. If they had 3 mortars (not a ridiculous amount of shooting) you would land roughly 10 pie plates on their army, even without an engineer. If two comets reach most of the invading force they are so squished together any artillery would be insane. What would stop 6 salamanders from breathing fire 3 turns each - That`d be game over for many armies right there.

Brother Loki
18-10-2010, 16:10
It's a commonly held military principle that you need 3:1 superiority to successfully attack a defended position. In an attacker/defender scenario you typically need to give the attackers more points. Unless you have access to vast numbers of models some sort of reinforcements mechanic is probably the way to go.

Lord Malorne
18-10-2010, 16:48
Whats the problem? Just don't let anyone take that spell if it bothered your scenario so much.


you could replay it only allowing lvl 2 mages? it will stop such silly large spells being thrown on the first turns.


No it wouldn't.

Malorian
18-10-2010, 17:02
Live and learn.

You can't put that much effort into something and then let it fall apart so easily. As you said it's a waste of time.

Next time have new rules in place to protect yourself, no matter what they are.

Plus if the game ends early for whatever reason, just break things up and play some regular games since you have the room and food anyway.

Lijacote
18-10-2010, 18:33
Just a thing I thought of, but maybe the mages could start locked in a battle of wits/the mind. They can take hits, inflict hits and suffer all sorts of magicky crap (charts!) for the first few turns, then they can start flinging their spells around for real (if they survive the ordeal, which can be as challenging or not as you wish). Hell, it could be as simple as "roll a D6 for each wizard, on a 4 (or 5 or 6)+ the wizard is free to start acting for the battle".

wizbix
18-10-2010, 22:04
Comets are dangerous things, one wiped out the dinosaurs! Ahem anyway, I dont think this is purely an 8th edition problem (thats if you define it a problem); I once killed the 'mighty, almost unkillable by anything' Nagash in turn one with one cast of the purple sun of blah blah blah and half his army way back in 5th edition. My opponent may not have liked it but I certainly enjoyed the experience. Incidently my opponent did have a good chuckle as well and I do have to point out that I lost just about every game against him before that game - Nagash was certainly unkillable by my poor disgruntled Elves.

Pacorko
18-10-2010, 22:25
My only question is: Why you have to [tangentially] rant about the rules when they are clearly not at fault?

I could go on to say that you had a very big game--18k per side as per your "each player brought 6k" statement--so as to make it impossible to have two comets wipe out enough of anything to end the game by turn 4.

Unless you had your armies in a conga line or a popcorn bucket, really.

You guys played a game and went at it. Maybe you had big expectations of what it would end being, and it coming too short you needed something to direct your frustration at.

As with everything involving big thing: "gamer discretion and self-control are advised."

You prepared a big game, yes. You didn't prepare for what could happen is someone decided to cast a mass extinction spell during it. This reads as none of you guys really knew your rules or what the scope of things had to be very well, so...

"Preparedness" was finally not achieved.

My only suggestion: Live, learn, don't rant, make the most of it and have go at it, again, once you know exactly what to avoid and what you want your game to be like.

But don't blame any rules set*!


*All right, maybe you can blame original Traveller for killing your character before the actual game started, but you guys know what I mean.

Owatanka
19-10-2010, 00:05
My only question is: Why you have to [tangentially] rant about the rules when they are clearly not at fault?

I could go on to say that you had a very big game--18k per side as per your "each player brouight 6k" statement--so as to make it impossible to have two comets wipe out enough of anything to end the game by turn 4.

Unless you had your armies in a conga line or a popcorn bucket, really.

You guys played a game and went at it. Maybe you had big expectations of what it would end being, and came it too short you needed something to direct your frustration at.

As with everything involving big thing: "gamer discretion and self-control are advised."

You prepared a big game, yes. You didn't prepare for what could happen is someone decided to cast a mass extinction spell during it. This reads as none of you guys really knew your rules or what the scope of things had to be very well, so...

"Preparedness" was finally not achieved.

My only suggestion: Live, learn,don't rant, make the most of it and have go at it, again, once you know exactly what to avoid and what you want your game to be like.

But don't blame any rules set*!


*All right, maybe you can blame original Traveller for killing your character before the actual game started, but you guys know what I mean.

Agree with everything but the "don't rant" part; if he didn't rant, he wouldn't be receiving advice and probably would never play again.

Pacorko
19-10-2010, 00:36
Well, if he had asked questions about so and so, or why and what , those could been answered withou problems.

But he marked it as a rant against the rules... and that's just a bit odd, Owatanka.

rocdocta
19-10-2010, 02:02
i dont see it as a rant, more a "Damn we spent so much time setting up and 2 spells ended the game" thread. no steadfast...etc etc rant. in fact i see it as a great way to warn others that are planning a similar sort of thing. in fact i may start doing that now...

Marwynn
19-10-2010, 02:24
I'm curious as to how two Comets, even IF, could decimate such large armies.

I've had three fall on my 2250 force (early days of 8th, before we moved on up to 2500) and it took out a good chunk as the spell's supposed to. I gouged out a large enough chunk of his forces with the Empire's warmachines as well.

Still had plenty left over to engage in some decent fighting.

Are you guys sure you got the spells right? Or perhaps there were other factors such as shooting and so on?

If you're going to plan D-Day you better make sure you have a never ending stream of Core units. Forgive me, this isn't 8th Edition's fault (wait till you see the other magic tricks it has), this was due to perhaps a bit of poor planning.

You had the logistics of it, but the actual scenario wasn't gonna be that balanced. Also, why not swap Attackers and Defenders and play again?

carlisimo
19-10-2010, 02:48
I’m new to Fantasy… what would’ve happened differently in 7th ed?

mweaver
19-10-2010, 04:55
Sounds like it was a weird break in the luck combined with the scenario making it hard for the attackers to maneuver more than the difference between 8th and 7th edition rules. Sorry it messed up your day, after so much effort went into it! I think the suggestion to rack 'em up again is the best thing to do when this happens.