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skullkandy
27-12-2010, 15:19
Hey all. I'm getting back into fantasy. I started beastmen right before 8th came out but i couldn't find anyone to play with because it seemed like everyone was playing FoW or warmachine while waiting for GW to release armybooks that work with 8th. Well it's been months and months with no army books in sight but I'm hoping I can find some players anyway as I just moved down the street from a really good gaming store.

I am essentially a noob to warhammer, as I said I started at the tail end of 7th and was only able to get 2 games in so I didn't even really have time to learn those rules. I've decided to go with vampire counts over the beastmen I started because I've always been a big fan of undead and necromantic things in fantasy settings.

So bearing in mind that I know essentially nothing any suggestions on where to start? I like the idea of an army that is very summoning heavy to bolster the undead hordes but I don't know how to apply this in game. tons of cheap necromancers?

shabbadoo
28-12-2010, 14:42
You don't need a ton of Necromancers to cast Necromancy spells. Necromancy spells can be cast over and over by a single Necromancer/Vampire. However, one a spell caster fails to cast a spell even just once, then that spell caster cannot cast any more spells at all during that magic phase(though they can still use bound spells in magic items, if they have such items). More so than for other armies, it is a good idea to have at least one back-up spell caster in a Vampire Counts army.

Other than that, Vampire Counts in general suffer under the 8E rules, as they have low Initiative, Fear is not what it used to be, and yet their points reflect many of the benefits that they once had in 7E but have now lost. I'm not saying that you shouldn't do Vampire Counts, but just know that they are not as effective as they once were, and so they will be challenging to play with.

skullkandy
28-12-2010, 16:10
Thanks for the info. I don't mind that they aren't as competative, I actually like that in a way. as I said I didn't get to play much 7th but I heard constantly how much people hated playing against VC and everyone wanted a VC army. I didn't want to play the flavor of the moment.

I don't know why but I like the whole undead thing, that's why it was either vampire counts or tomb kings but since tomb kings won't be updated until 2057 I don't really want to play them.

so how often does fear come into play? I know it lowers WS to 1 I believe if you fail a leadership test. But in my ignorance I don't know how much of an impact that has. It sounds like a big deal but with no 8th edition game experience I don't know how it actually plays out on the table.

Ville
28-12-2010, 16:38
I think Vamps are a powerful army even in 8th ed, just more balanced than before!

And yeah, it is usually enough to have one powerful Vampire caster and possibly a supporting Necromancer with Vanhel's Danse Macabre (super important spell!) and a Dispel Scroll.

nagash66
28-12-2010, 17:02
After both fielding and coming up against a 40 man grave guard unit with a wight kind who carries the drakenhof banner, all with great weapons and the banner of the barrows i would say VC are fine in 8th.

You simply have to change you're 7th mindset.

bonertron
29-12-2010, 02:15
I have had a lot of success with my Vampires in 8th. I found a unit of 50+ zombies, combined with a Helm of Commandment works wonders. Its a dirt cheap unit that can be healed up very quickly. I found that VCs work much better as a point negation army, rather than a killy army now. Take big cheap blocks that are impossible to kill, and pray to whichever god you believe in that your opponent hasnt taken the lore of death (sniper spells).

Stay away from the cool and fancy things like the wraiths and the black coach, and stick with big blocks of infantry. Take one lvl 4 vamp, and 2 or 3 necromancers (depending on the size of game). Use the necromancers to cast invo, using one dice. If they fail, it doesnt matter. Use the lvl 4 to drop the big magic bombs.

shabbadoo
29-12-2010, 04:18
After both fielding and coming up against a 40 man grave guard unit with a wight kind who carries the drakenhof banner, all with great weapons and the banner of the barrows i would say VC are fine in 8th.

You simply have to change you're 7th mindset.

Ah, yes. Change your 7E mindset to the 8E mindset. If you field a 795 point unit, yes, it just might kick a little bit of butt. Ya think? Seeing as every single VC unit can be set up like that, why yes, VC do indeed work totally awesome in 8E. How could I have not seen this. :eyebrows: No, VC really don't work that well. You did choose a good unit as an example though, as at only +50% more than the cost of a Skeleton, Grave Guard are certainly more appropriately priced for what they can do based on their basic stats, equipment, and abilities, and without the Drakenhof Banner(yes, you have to go monkey stupid with the unit to make it really nasty though, and then must hope that somebody isn't an idiot and so counters it with a Banner of Eternal Flame costing less than 1/10 what the Drakenhof Banner does) or even the Banner of the Barrows. Black Knights are decent enough too for the cost.

Even Zombies are overly expensive for what they can now do, if only slightly, but Skeletons are the units that really perform at a sub-par level; certainly not at a level equal to their points cost. So, just run an all-zombie Core(gawd how I hate those models though, and it would take 180+ of them to fill out the 750+ point Core of a 3,000 point army, but imagine it- 3 units of 60 zombies!). :p Of course I like cool models, and not needing to build that many of models(nor needing to spend $300+ to get that horde of sub-par looking/performing models), and so I have quite few of the horribly performing, but cool looking new Skeleton Warriors. The Core units for VC need a 25% points reduction across the board to align them with the new rules. Other units need lesser point tweaks, but we'll get an idea about that later in the year when Tomb Kings come out.

Our game club is currently running a Mighty Empires campaign that has two VC players, and it has been grim for them. Very grim. We are in round 2, and so far the VC have played in 3 games(one more to come for Round 2). One was a solid victory against them(vs. Skaven), and the other two were massacres against them- one got tabled at the very end of Turn 4 but having killed one enemy unit(vs. High Elves), and the other ended the game with a Necromancer and two ghouls left, but with the enemy army having lost not a single unit(vs. Dark Elves). It has been utterly brutal for VC. We are joking that the first VC battle of note will be when the two VC players play each other! :p

Not striking first on the charge is the main thing that affects VC. Relying on spells to do that means much less magic being used to raise something or inflict magical damage to the enemy. Add in an average of 7 magic dice to use for spells, some of which will be dispelled with a scroll or a dice roll, and it usually means that you need to rely on the basic stats/abilities of your units. Add all of those factors together and you've got a sub-par army. What you do get to do though is gloat when you win, and write down the person's name(and the army they played) on The WALL OF SHAME!!! :p

Anyways, here is how Fear is likely to work(or rather not work) for VC. Most of the VC units are hoping for some synergy between Vanhel's Danse Macabre/Miasma of Deathly Vigor and the enemy failing a Fear test to become WS 1, meaning that the Undead will then strike first and hit on 3's(2's in the case of either sort of wight unit with the Banner of the Barrows!!! :eek:). But that really won't happen all that much with the enemy General with a Ld of 9-10 usually being nearby, and add in a possible Battle Standard Bearer to the army and that Fear test gets to be re-rolled for nearby units. The Screaming Banner won't even help out that much. So, pretty tough time for Vampire Counts players on the Fear front of things.

bonertron covers the basics of magic well enough.

nagash66
30-12-2010, 01:48
Ah, yes. Change your 7E mindset to the 8E mindset. If you field a 795 point unit, yes, it just might kick a little bit of butt. Ya think? Seeing as every single VC unit can be set up like that, why yes, VC do indeed work totally awesome in 8E. How could I have not seen this. :eyebrows: No, VC really don't work that well. .

I would beg to differ, this unit simply requires that the army be build around it, it will provide great offensive and defensive capabilities ( regen on youre vamp lord is a godsend) and is one of the few ways VC can go toe to toe with elite units.

You say it costs so much so it HAS to be good, i say poppycock, HEY 40 chaos knights also cost like 1k+ points auto win right??:shifty:

This unit takes things 7ed VC would never do and uses them in a 8 ed way, its provides you banners, character and point denial all while being lethal in close combat.

However where other army's like high elves cry sweet tears of pain when say a mortar shoots their 30 large sword master unit you will laugh it off, because you are VC because you can raise and because there are very few units in the game that can go toe to toe with this block and win.


Seeing as every single VC unit can be set up like that,

I am very curious what army book do you use??:rolleyes:
Skeletons and zombies cant do this they dont have the offensive capabilities needed to pull this block off ( even with a boost from helm), ghouls fail by the simple fact they have no armour and again bad offensive capabilities.

Are you perhaps suggesting a cavalry unit? As not even blood can provide the all around effectiveness of this unit ( in fact if you do the math you will see they lose in equal points combat if both units have bsb with drakenhof, forget the easy rez factor of the guard).

So which OTHER VC can be set up like this??

I have been playing VC for 3 eds now and if youre friends are having trouble in 8 ed it just that. YOUR friends having trouble, as myself and the 3 other VC players i know are all doing ok ( not 7 ed GREAT but ok) and even do well in tournies.

rodmillard
30-12-2010, 03:30
@ Nagash66: I think you need to reset your sarcasm detector.

Although not new to fantasy (not by a long shot!) I, like the OP, have started playing VC in 8th, and I have picked up a few tips along the way for using them in the new metagame:

* Skeletons exist to provide static CR for your combat heroes. 9/10 they will achieve nothing else (although with hand weapon and shield they are possibly the best tarpit in the game, just not worth 8 points a pop).
* If you are going to buy zombies, go large. I mean take a unit of 50+ with full command, anything less you might just as well summon in game and save yourself the points.
* Wights (foot or mounted) and ghouls are your main combat units - its a shame the GW ghouls are pig ugly, but if your gaming group are OK with it (and you aren't relying on a GW store to play) there's always Mantic.
* If you want your army to be in any way mobile, you need at least 1 model with the vampire rule per 1000 points, plus your general. That doesn't have to be a character - all your rare units bar wraiths will do the job just as well, but you need those vampires out there to keep units marching.

I'm sure I'll think of more, but its half past three and my caffeine is wearing off...

shabbadoo
30-12-2010, 10:31
Yes, it was sarcasm. :p And yes, most of the VC units other than Grave Guard are rather ineffective for the cost.

Seeing as the OP is just starting out, post some army lists intended for such a player, and offer some advice as to how the sum of the army's parts work as a cohesive whole; essentially, what the method behind the madness is.

After seeing three rather brutal 8E games for VC armies, I would ask that anyone and everyone post every heinous trick/tactic/unit build/synergy that they can think of into an army list. I have two VC players who are willing to give most anything a try at this point, and I would like to see them try it.

As this is the OP's thread, maybe they would like to post what models they are likely to get and instead base their stipulations on what they will have available. Barring that, here are some stipulations of my own that I think represent the types/amounts of models that a player just starting out might have at their disposal with which to make an army list:

*No more than two large monsters in the army(Zombie Dragon, Abyssal Terror, and I'll put the Varghulf here too).
*No more than two *each* of models on chariot bases(Corpse Cart, Black Coach).
*No Core infantry unit above 40 models to start(Ghouls, Skeletons, Zombies).
*No non-Core infantry unit above 30 models to start(Grave Guard).
*No units on cavalry bases above 10 models to start(Dire Wolves, Black Knights, Blood Knights- 2 ranks of 5).
*No units on monster bases above 6 models to start(Bat Swarms, Fell Bats, Ethereal Hosts- 2 ranks of three).

Build a 2,000 point army with the above restrictions. These restrictions are there to realistically represent what a beginning player will most likely be willing to purchase, and have available to build an army with. Now, impress me. ;)

nagash66
30-12-2010, 11:31
Build a 2,000 point army with the above restrictions. These restrictions are there to realistically represent what a beginning player will most likely be willing to purchase, and have available to build an army with. Now, impress me. ;)

I am sorry but if he isnt willing to buy the models necessary then there is little point of me posting lists.

The OP needs to decide right off the bat is he willing to go the distance? There is nothing wrong with making fun background lists but if you want us to post our own lists then NO restrictions should apply.

Also 8th is 2500+ almost no one i know of still plays 2000.

skullkandy
30-12-2010, 16:32
thanks for all the info to read over guys.

I'm still unsure of VC because I really like skeletons. I wanted a skeleton horde that get's raised over and over and it just doesn't sound like that's really viable as skeletons sound horrible for their points from the above conversation.

tomb kings were actually my first choice but it will probably be another 10 years before they get updated since they've been the "next book" for about 4 years from the old rumors i've read.

dinobot
30-12-2010, 17:41
The main issue you'll find with 8th ed. VC is that it isn't very well balanced internally. They can compete at a mid-level, however only if they take Graveguard, Ghouls, forbidden lore and a few rare choices mixed in. If you deviate too much from those optimal builds, then you're going to get trounced by most other armies.

If you want a diverse arsenal of lists and strategies than I would recommend against choosing VC as your army.