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Grimstonefire
27-12-2010, 21:08
With things like the clockwork horse and daemon beasts like the juggernaut, it strikes me that designing things that are acceptable technology for warhammer must be quite hard.

I know the juggernauts are not steam driven, but even so, doing something that could fit into warhammer and 40k without looking too futuristic must have been hard.

What do people think of the 'advanced' things we've seen in warhammer so far?

Are piston/steam driven beasts of war (with a bit of magic) just too much?

Would a beast absolutely covered in pistons look too 40k no matter how it was done?

Hrokka `Eadsplitter
27-12-2010, 21:28
Yes. Since this is a fantasy setting, people probably expect more magic than science. I could accept Golems(Since those are creatures of magic, elementals, whatever) but a machine is a bit too futuristic..

dragonet111
27-12-2010, 21:31
I like it.

The steam tech is something I like and I think a big steam engine in the dwarf armoury will be great. I'm not speaking of a robot but some kind of dwarf steam tank or a skaven techno-priest building a mechanical vermin lord.

theunwantedbeing
27-12-2010, 21:36
For skaven it's fine.
For dwarves, it's a bit wierd.
For empire it's beyond them.

Everything else, unless it's a daemon, it doesn't fit.

Hrokka `Eadsplitter
27-12-2010, 21:42
That summed it up pretty well, theunwantedbeing:)
But not even daemons would get away with such tech, would they?

theunwantedbeing
27-12-2010, 21:53
To be honest, they're daemons....anything goes with them.

Torpedo Vegas
27-12-2010, 22:24
Like the chaos dwarfs "daemon ass cannon." Forget logic, its magic.

Jind_Singh
27-12-2010, 22:25
I don't see why not - but then I am biased as Empire is a great looking army with cool fluff - and one of these day's I'll build that 3000pt army under my bed - the reason I bought it was for the Mechanical steed with the engineer, and the new steam tank model - I think they look awesome, and don't see why they would be beyond the clever chaps at the engineers college!

Besides - it's not so un-fantasy either, it helps to set them apart from the other human realms for one thing, and it looks cool without being too silly.

Stunties should be good at making awesome contraptions, along with Chaos Dwarves.

Besides - if anyone's read Dragonlance books they all have their share of steam powered machines - think the Gnomes with their inventions, it did nothing to ruin the overall flavor of the genre.

CrystalSphere
27-12-2010, 22:40
I am a bit uncomfortable with it, specially when GW decides to create mechanical horses or pidgeon bombs, and gives them to the empire, which i was already skeptical of the steam tank (and the steam tank is very old in the empire background).

For some races that are more technologically advanced, some steam engines may look good (even Skaven have WWI style gas weapons), but definitely not up to the point when they become widespread. They should be very rare and stay that way, otherwise the sword & magic feeling of the fantasy genre will get diluted among the "mechs" and the game will start to resemble more 40k, a game where mechanical devices are pivotal to the game (like transports).

Fox Of 9
27-12-2010, 22:49
theres like only 10 steam tanks for the whole of the empire ..

Tokamak
27-12-2010, 22:54
Da Vinci's and other inventor's sketches and ideas from the renaissance can be a great inspiration for the empire.

But mind you that even those ideas make subtle use of technology, a robotic horse does not belong here and goes too far. I don't think warhammer's technology should exceed the 1700's.

I also don't like the juggernaughts, they're too much metal and too little infernal. I hope the next generation is more skeleton-like exposing more of it's burning core.

bert n ernie
27-12-2010, 23:09
The horse jumped the shark for me too.
It wasn't just that it was mechanical, it was that it was futuristic. It did not have a look where the old world technology was used to create it, rather modern technology (and only just at that).
It was like the difference between a clockwork horse, and a digital horse for me.
It's past steampunk, which for me was something that the Empire could only just dabble in, and the skaven were trying to embrace.

L1qw1d
27-12-2010, 23:30
I think it would be quite wild- you could have it follow the forces of Order, but have it a...touch "wildcarded" like O&G stuff. recall Empire has some, and Dwarves, even on the models- and you could go back a few editions and see golems and the like for Kislev and some of the other eastern nations. You could refine some of it, and even throw in a "something was unearthed that hates Chaos...but at what cost?" type of thing and mess with C'Tan stuff.

Maybe something so imbalanced that can punch into a block of Chosen and hurt them lol

zak
27-12-2010, 23:42
I really like the Juggernaught and, Dwarf and Skaven stuff, but I really don't like the Mechanical Horse as an idea, but have to admit that the model is nice.

H33D
28-12-2010, 00:17
I think it depends on the army, not the setting of the world. None of the armies strike me as having steam technology except for Dwarves, Empire, and Skaven. The Empire has always seemed to be in a sort of industrial age and Dwarves have technology that is supposed to be ahead of the time. Skaven just pillage what steam tech they can before they warp it and make it all weird. I don't personally feel steam technology is too far fetched for a fantasy setting.

Hochdorf
28-12-2010, 00:41
I didn't like the concept or the execution of the mechanical horse. I mean we haven't even built a fully functional mechanical horse that you could ride on and control well enough to feel comfortable riding into battle in the real 21st century world. That's not steam punk. It's futuristic technology. The model sucks too.

I have no problem with gyrocopters, steam tanks, warpfire throwers and the like though.

Hrokka `Eadsplitter
28-12-2010, 15:09
But from the "Clockwork horse" it's not long to "Clockwork Army"(Golems, robots, Dreadnoughts). If GW had such a thing even the clockwork horse sympathizers draw a line, wouldn't they?
Sure a magic rune binded to an Oathstone that preserves the owners soul after his death forged into a self walking avatar of Grimnir would be cool, but then we're in Warmachine.

arthurfallz
28-12-2010, 15:15
Steampunk is the bane of fantasy.

Thazi Battleseeker
28-12-2010, 18:51
There was a time when cannons alone were seen as very arcane in Warhammer. Those days are long gone :(

rodmillard
28-12-2010, 19:10
Steampunk is the bane of fantasy.

I disagree.

Steampunk *is* a form of fantasy by definition, its just usually kept separate from the "high fantasy" elements of elves and goblins. The reason for this is simple: publishers know that there is only so far the "typical" reader can suspend their disbelief. They can relate to elves and dwarves and the one true king racing across middle earth to destroy a magic ring, and they can relate to Isembard Kickass Brunel and his steam powered spider tank, but put both in the same novel and it starts to become (at best) implausible and (at worst) incoherent.

These boundaries can be pushed further within an established fantasy world, but it has to be handled with care: The Dragonlance setting has steam technology and black powder, but the race that creates them is prohibitted from learning arcane magic - in effect, technology (for the gnomes) fills the role of wizardry for the other races. The Eberron Setting (also for D&D) blurs the line between technology and magic, with streets lit by magical lamps and arcane locks on every safe - in that setting, devices which are familiar to us are powerd by magic, rather than technology.

We can see this in the Warhammer world as well: Dwarves do not use "magic" as such, but their runesmiths will not enchant "unreliable" technology (like the gyrocopter). The two races who - in the background at least - make the most use of "Steampunk" style technology (Skaven and Chaos Dwarves) blur the line between technology and magic to the point that it is sometimes hard to tell where the machine ends and the daemon begins.

The problem comes when you get to The Empire. In one army you combine religious zealots and witchfinders, organised colleges of wizardry, and the fantastical inventions of Leonardo Da Vinci. The reason for this stems from the fact that the Empire was (and AFAIK still is) the core setting for WFRP, and everything that defines the warhammer world had to be available there. That's fine in an RPG where master mages and master engineers are so rare (less than 1 in 1000 of the population) that they would harldy ever meet, but in a tabletop battle game you will often see one (or more) of each on every battlefield, often led by an Arch-Lector who (in the RPG) should want nothing to do with either of them, and may well be planning to burn all wizards at the stake if he has time before dinner!

The steamtank is just about acceptable - it has been part of the warhammer world for so long that it has come to define it (also, crucially, its inventor is long dead and noone has ever successfully copied him). The Mechanical Horse, on the other hand, is not. Stick some horns on it and it would fit right in in a Chaos Dwarf army as a mechanical daemon (actually, that's not a bad idea...) but it has no place in the Empire army. If they had modelled the "Mechanical Steed" as a kind of steam powered bicycle it would have tied in better.

Grimstonefire
28-12-2010, 22:00
Perhaps an issue that is dividing people on this is the fact that the steam tank is the only 'high tech' thing for the moment that actually uses steam...

Using magic as a power source is one thing, but having some sort of steam boiler engine thing makes it seem more fantasy to me.

Like a chaos dwarf dreadnought with a steam boiler on the back would seem more fantasy than a clockwork horse. Just me perhaps. The doomwheel also has a boiler thing on the back.

Mr_Foulscumm
28-12-2010, 22:16
So the plan is to get Warhammer to slowly turn into Warmachine? That's just what we need.

Ironmonger
29-12-2010, 00:22
Steampunk is the bane of fantasy.

Out of curiosity, what exactly is it about steampunk that offends you? Is it the fantasy element? The clockwork/steam tech element (ancient Greeks experimenting with both more then 2 millennia ago)? Or do you feel that 'Fantasy' should be restricted to Tolkien stereotypes?


So the plan is to get Warhammer to slowly turn into Warmachine? That's just what we need.

I wish, though that would require better rules, consistent background and story line advancement.

Steam power is great in a fantasy setting. The S'tank is great, the Chaos Dwarfs/Dwarfs make a good combo with both magic/runes and tech, and Chaos...well...it's Chaos.

I always thought that the Mechanical Steed was clockwork, and I'm looking for any mention of it being steam. As well, Skaven tech is warpstone powered, not steam; like a type of magical electricity. Again, I can't find any information to the contrary. So, it seems as though the Dwarfs and Empire are the only races to really attempt to harness 'steam power.'

If anyone can find sources which contradict these, please post them, as I'm always interested in new info.

arthurfallz
29-12-2010, 12:28
Out of curiosity, what exactly is it about steampunk that offends you? Is it the fantasy element? The clockwork/steam tech element (ancient Greeks experimenting with both more then 2 millennia ago)? Or do you feel that 'Fantasy' should be restricted to Tolkien stereotypes?.

Plain and simple, yes, and if you happen to not dig steam-tech in fantasy, it just isn't cool. I do like Tolkien and I prefer my fantasy in that vein. Much like Professor Tolkien, I have a disdain for modernity and machines, and find their presence in fantasy both jarring and counterintuitive.

To each their own, but to a fantasy enthusiast the steampunk movement infusing fantasy is dissapointing personally.

mrtn
29-12-2010, 12:44
The robot horse is one of the most stupid concepts in Warhammer. Steam technology in Warhammer should, with the exception of the tank, stick to what was (or could have been) used early on in the development of steam here on earth.

Reimu
29-12-2010, 15:51
Steampunk is probably the future of fantasy settings. A lot of people are justifiably getting bored of the same old Tolkien ripoffs that keep cropping up. Not many settings do that Tolkienesque thing very well. Warhammer Fantasy would be one of the few, but even it mixes the setting up with steampunk, Romanian vampirism, medieaval religion, Renaissance period stuff, Aztecs, Egyptians and more tangible daemonic forces.

The Lord of the Rings is absolutely fantastic, but it's the vanilla of the literary fantasy world. People who aren't Tolkien can seldom take those same elements and come up with something interesting or relevant. After all, LotR only dresses like speculative ancient English mythology; it's ultimately a story about hope, trust, friendship and compassion. A lot of fantasy books and the like aren't really about anything, we just read about a bunch of things that sound cool on paper but don't really come together.

Steampunk, if nothing else, is something a bit more fresh and interesting. It's also a lot closer, socially speaking, to today. And it's flexible. You can set it as early as the 1500s (at a stretch) or as late as the 20th century.

Two of Warhammer Fantasy's major strengths are its diversity and flexibility. I certainly think there's a lot of room of steampunky stuff amongst the Empire, Dwarfs and Skaven. If nothing else, the Empire appears in almost all factors to take after Renaissance Germany, which is a fine time to introduce some steam-powered contraptions.

Also, a minor correction is in order. When Tolkien refers to a dislike of technology, I believe he's referring to his reaction to industrialisation. Steam power and clockwork don't have a whole lot to do with that; diesel fuel and electricity are what you want to point your finger at, both of which are exclusively the province of the Skaven.

arthurfallz
29-12-2010, 16:12
Also, a minor correction is in order. When Tolkien refers to a dislike of technology, I believe he's referring to his reaction to industrialisation. Steam power and clockwork don't have a whole lot to do with that; diesel fuel and electricity are what you want to point your finger at, both of which are exclusively the province of the Skaven.

Industrialisation in general, but overall Tolkien did not like a lot of technology. I think the fact that the steam tech in Warhammer is used to make Tanks would confim exactly what he's said about 'progress'; it almost always comes down to making bombs.

Personally, as much as I dislike modernity and technology, I do like Sci-Fi and even parts of Steam Punk. To be specific, I like Steam Punk in Steam Punk genres and pieces. What I dislike is how steam punk is creeping into fantasy. This isn't a universally shared opinion, and I'm not deluding myself into that, but I do think the face of fantasy is be consumed by steam punk rather than evolved. But that's literary criticism, and that and $2 will get you a coffee at Starbucks.

Thazi Battleseeker
29-12-2010, 18:21
I do think the face of fantasy is be consumed by steam punk rather than evolved.

I feel the same way, and believe it's attributed to the fact that its just a greater challenge and demand on the imagination to evolve these fantasy elements instead. Fantasy in this vein demands the absolutely highest production qualities in order to fly. Steampunk, Sci-fi, and the creep of tech in general is much more easily conceived in acceptable form.

AlphaLegionMarine
29-12-2010, 19:15
Industrialisation in general, but overall Tolkien did not like a lot of technology. I think the fact that the steam tech in Warhammer is used to make Tanks would confim exactly what he's said about 'progress'; it almost always comes down to making bombs.

Personally, as much as I dislike modernity and technology, I do like Sci-Fi and even parts of Steam Punk. To be specific, I like Steam Punk in Steam Punk genres and pieces. What I dislike is how steam punk is creeping into fantasy. This isn't a universally shared opinion, and I'm not deluding myself into that, but I do think the face of fantasy is be consumed by steam punk rather than evolved. But that's literary criticism, and that and $2 will get you a coffee at Starbucks.

I agree with you, I miss High Fantasy with very little technological innovation. I can accept (barely) the Steamtank but I have a hard time trying to accept the mechanical horse.

DaemonReign
29-12-2010, 19:56
Steampunk has no appeal for me.

I have come to accept and like the Steamtank and the The Gyrocopter because they've been around for such a long time, but I am pretty sure I would concider them just plain awfull additions to the game if they turned up on the "pre-order" page Today.

As far as Skaven-stuff is concerned well they got their warpstone mumbo jumbo going so they're forgiven.

Daemons.. Well they are Daemons! But to be frank I don't paint my Bloodcrushers like GW displays them (I actually paint fleshy parts beneath the red-shaded armour plates because the "pure steel" underbelly that GW shows just makes no sense to me) - but again, these manifestations travel unchanged between fighting Space Marines and Statetroops so anything goes.. I mean I use a 40K Daemon Prince in Fantasy it's not like I filed away that Space Marine helmet he's got hanging as trophy in his belt).

The Mechanical Horse is a nice model. You'd have to assume alot of magic seals go into it though, otherwise my allergy to steampunk would get the better of me.. My Empire-playing friend says it sucks royal ass though, so he actually declined when I opted to buy and paint it for his army. hehe

loveless
29-12-2010, 20:41
Every time I read something from Tolkien or watch Jackson's LOTR movies or see a new GW LOTR model, I almost always grumble to myself if I'm looking at it from a fantasy perspective. It's just so boring in the long run. They manage to suck the magic out of fantasy - dwarves are short people, hobbits are shorter people, and elves are pretty people. Yes, there are some crazy bits - an occasional bit of magic or a flying beast/dragon - but it's remarkably tame. Cover up the Orcs and Uruk-hai in full plate or mail and I might as well be matching Kingdom of Heaven during the fight scenes.

Don't get me wrong - Tolkien is good, but it's its own breed of story and should just stay away from other Fantasy stories.

As for particular moans about Steampunk...well, there's little of it in WHFB. There are some offenders, of course:
1) Gyrocopter - easily the worst from my perspective. You hear about how the dwarves are resistant to change and prefer to stand by the old ways...then they build a helicopter. It looks ridiculous, and feels out of place in the army. If anything, it should be redesigned to something closer to Da Vinci's and given to the Empire...
2) ...since the Empire has the Steam Tank, which seems like a decent "next step" from Da Vinci's tank. Though the Empire in general really has to decide what it wants to be. Is it a bunch of religious nutjobs? Is it a force of crusaders? Is it a renaissance army? Is it a fledgling steam industry? It pulls in too many directions at once - good for gamers, but a bit "bleh" for story consistency.
3) Skryre Tech has been technomagic for quite some time now. It's their schtick - they take their brass, their wires, and their warpstone and use it to make the winds of magic their b****. The Skaven are arguably the best blend of science and magic in the setting.
4) Chaos - more "daemon engine" than "steam engine" in most cases, dwarven know-how with chaos power. A step below Skaven on the science side, but closer to other races on the magic side.

As for comparisons to Warmachine, there are so many odd bits in that game that it's hard to place the overall inspiration. Steampunk zombies, Tesla-style knights, WW1 soldiers, Crusades-era warriors, and gun-toting elves. The Iron Kingdoms are their own breed of storyline - one that works due to the care put into it by the creators - where steam enhances magic, magic enhances steam, dragons are anathema to the natural order, and science is a cult religion all of its own.

Lockjaw
29-12-2010, 20:46
depends on the level, I can take gears, steam engines, etc, but pistons, cables, etc are a bit too high tech looking

rodmillard
29-12-2010, 22:16
As for particular moans about Steampunk...well, there's little of it in WHFB. There are some offenders, of course:
1) Gyrocopter - easily the worst from my perspective. You hear about how the dwarves are resistant to change and prefer to stand by the old ways...then they build a helicopter. It looks ridiculous, and feels out of place in the army. If anything, it should be redesigned to something closer to Da Vinci's and given to the Empire...

Don't take away my gyros! In an army that's otherwise very samey, the different tech levels available to the dwarfs are the closest we can get to a "theme." At the moment, I'm playing around with a no-black-powder list, but its equally possible to go full on steam-punk with an Engineers Guild army (you can fit two gyros and two flame cannons in a 2K list). It might not be the best option out there, but its fun!


2) ...since the Empire has the Steam Tank, which seems like a decent "next step" from Da Vinci's tank. Though the Empire in general really has to decide what it wants to be. Is it a bunch of religious nutjobs? Is it a force of crusaders? Is it a renaissance army? Is it a fledgling steam industry? It pulls in too many directions at once - good for gamers, but a bit "bleh" for story consistency.

I addressed this a bit earlier - the problem is that the empire (being the core RPG setting) has to include a bit of everything. IMO players should be encouraged (if not forced) to specialise a bit more - a few more slot changes (like the priests and flagellants thing) would go a long way towards making individual empire armies more specialised - eg, have cannons and mortars as rare unless you take an engineer, forcing them to compete with the more unreliable war machines for points.


3) Skryre Tech has been technomagic for quite some time now. It's their schtick - they take their brass, their wires, and their warpstone and use it to make the winds of magic their b****. The Skaven are arguably the best blend of science and magic in the setting.

I like the Skyre technomancy - in a high magic setting like WFB I think magically powered technology is the way to go (one of the issues I have with the Empire tech is why they bother, when a wizard could do the job quicker and cheaper).


4) Chaos - more "daemon engine" than "steam engine" in most cases, dwarven know-how with chaos power. A step below Skaven on the science side, but closer to other races on the magic side.

There is so much scope here - I like what I'm seeing from the Warhammer Forge line - but I would much rather have the "Chaos" Dwarfs separate from generic Chaos. Again, the issue of "why use steam power when we have magic" rears its ugly head - like the Skaven, the Dawi Zharr have that fusion of magic and technology on their side, although much more industrial era than the hypertech of the Skaven.

Little Joe
30-12-2010, 11:42
Personally I think the dwarfs are past the steam era, more into oil(gyro, flame thrower). It is the chaos dwarfs that combine steam and daemon energy.

But the horse (mechanical steed) is undefined as to what powers it by the description in the army book, but it looks like it is powered by clockwork (no way this actually works). But it creates electricity like modern cars, that is where over the top leaves the stratosphere. It is by far too high tech for the empire with a nice model though.

I think both dwarfs and skaven pull the magic/tech duality off pretty well in their distinct ways. Chaos dwarfs are the tech department from 40k to allow for juggernauts. But the empire should be a torn nation also for magic versus technology, clockwork and early steam experiments are OK but not more.

Urgat
30-12-2010, 12:15
So the plan is to get Warhammer to slowly turn into Warmachine? That's just what we need.

Slowly. Indeed. Since the first editions of Warhammer, we've lost more steam stuff than we've gained. Poeple should really check how it was before instead of making broad statements like that. That dwarf juggernaught people joke about, you know, it did exist, it did have a (big) model, excepted it was on wheel, it didn't walk.
"shrugs". Back then, even my gobs were allowed to field a repeater canon :p That's kindda crazy tech, btw, don't you think? Actual canons on a rotating barrel. The one who manages to explain to me how it can fire more than 9 shots in succession gets a cookie, btw.
So we could remove all that. We could play DnD, heh :p

sigur
30-12-2010, 12:43
Steampunk has no appeal for me.
...

Same here, but it's mainly (apart from the general aesthetics that developed) the use of the "-punk" ending I tend to critisize. It's just a cheap way to try to immitate the hallowed bigger brother Cyberpunk.

Anyway, I prefer Warhammer to be a twisted mirror of real world history and concepts. By which I don't necessarily mean historical accuracy but more of a kind of caricature and irony. I don't have a whole lot of problems with steam-powered stuff as long as it's limited to the steam tank (which by god really needs no rotating turret), and maybe some really big things like big-wheeled landships (which are cool. Walkers are not. They are silly.) And as long as stuff looks like it realistically could be built and used.

Like with the mechanical horse. I wasn't completely offended by the idea as long as it would have looked like basically a hobbyhorse with wheels and a broom for a mane. I.e. SILLY and impractical, because that's what mechanical horses are. Making it look like Darth Vader's robo-horse from hell was a BAD idea.

General rule of thumb: Wood is easier to work with and more readily available than metal so things should be built out of wood. Cogwheels are okay but again, wood and make them look hand-made. Your siege weapon isn't worth much if it's impossible to move, is it? ;)

DaemonReign
30-12-2010, 14:24
... then there are the unit-types standing next to each other that just make no "realistic" sense..

Like Dwarf Quarellers and Dwarf Thunderers.

It'd be fine if the Dwarves were on the tech-level of Crossbows.

It'd be fine if the Dwarves were on the tech-level of black powder weapons.

But BOTH.. at the SAME TIME?

Of course this complicates alot of things.. Crossbows, and certainly gunpowder, did away with heavily armoured troops (since their realistic armour piercing ability is really something like -6 Save rather than the -1 that we all play with).

But hey.. it's a game.. And I wouldn't want to delete the Stank or the Gyrocopter, at all, they are dear members of the Warhammer familly IMO..

But at the same time I wouldn't want to see any more steam punk stuff being added.

Enough is enough.

... All though now that OnG are supposedly getting Giant Spiders why not start using the Soulgrinder in fantasy as well.. *hehe*

A. Smith
30-12-2010, 15:01
Actually, Daemon, it's entirely possible that sort of thing happened... Handguns (and by handguns I mean "firearms that can be carried by one person") started to be used in the early 1400's, and crossbows continued to be used until sometime in the 1500s.

Granted, it doesn't make sense both are a staple of the army, but still, having both crossbows and handguns in the same army isn't that bad.

DaemonReign
30-12-2010, 15:19
Actually, Daemon, it's entirely possible that sort of thing happened... Handguns (and by handguns I mean "firearms that can be carried by one person") started to be used in the early 1400's, and crossbows continued to be used until sometime in the 1500s.

Granted, it doesn't make sense both are a staple of the army, but still, having both crossbows and handguns in the same army isn't that bad.

Very well then! :)

And I yes I concidered one could interpret it all as Warhammer taking place in a transitional period. You're correct.

LaughinGremlin
30-12-2010, 15:51
Diversity was a strategy. When conditions were damp, crossbows worked better than the blackpowder weapons.

I'd also like to throw in my "hear, hear!" for the mechanical steeds being over-the-top while everything else is fine. GW doesn't have mechanical cavalry in
40K as far as I know. Instead, they have motorcycles with fat tires for the space marines and orks, and those bikes would be a lesser technology than four legged mecha-steeds, and I bet that most people on this forum would say that "motorcycles have no place in the warhammer world."

A pigeon bomb involves the use of a real, flesh-and-blood bird, so I'm OK with that. A clock-work bird that can be programmed to fly to a particular destination to deliver a payload would have been over-the-top too.

asphodel
30-12-2010, 16:02
Most of the steam punk business is fine for the Empire, Skaven and the Dwarfs. I never liked the gyrocopter because it was *too* steampunk, and the mech horse was just a terrible idea. It doesn't even make sense without some kind of magic, and then, why would anyone bother when they could just go out and buy a normal horse? My objections are purely fluff-based since these technologies seem kind of inconsistent with the background (how could Dwarfs innovate so much? Why on earth would anyone build a mech horse that has no significant advantages over a regular horse?)

Don't get me wrong, I think it's great to have some steampunk elements to set Warhammer apart from other fantasy settings. And if you don't like the steam tech, just don't use it!

LaughinGremlin
30-12-2010, 16:09
Right - I'm glad that GW puts options in their lists, that we don't NEED to utilize.
i.e. Some people like "old school" Tolkien-esque dwarfs with bolt throwers, catapults, and crossbows only, so they won't use any black powder. Isn't it nice to give variety to the masses? It's a better business model for GW this way if it can satisfy the varied customer.

CrystalSphere
30-12-2010, 17:42
i.e. Some people like "old school" Tolkien-esque dwarfs with bolt throwers, catapults, and crossbows only, so they won't use any black powder.

Actualy, tolkien dwarves did not even use crossbows, they used short bows (due to their height). I also donīt remember reading about any dwarf warmachine in any tolkien book, but then that is not surprising, as Tolkien favoured greatly the elves and humans and the dwarves have little show time compared to them.

I would also like to mention that crossbows and arquebuses coexisted from some time, aproximately during the later half of the 15th century and the first half of the 16th century, the crossbow slowly being replaced as time passed.

I understand the point of having crossbows and arquebuses for the empire, but i do think that the dwarves are past that technological level and many of the things they use are a bit anachronical. Having both bolt throwers/catapults and cannons in the same society does not make any sense, and for the dwarves it doesnīt make sense to use crossbows if they have already perfectioned such a "harquebus/musket" of great precision. In fact if i had to put the crossbows somewhere, i would give it to rangers alone. Crossbows were historically a common hunting weapon, even while gunpowder was widespread, it was prefered due to it accuracy towards single targets and lack of sound. In grudgelore there is passage mentioning that dwarf kings like to go hunt goblins with their crossbows, it is a clear analogy to how historically kings used to go hunting as well with their crossbows. Still, once gunpowder weapons were accurate enough (18th century onwards) the crossbows even as hunting weapons were replaced.

I think dwarves still have available the old technologies for a few reasons:
1) To give players the chance to play old-style dwarves, without gunpowder. I know there are who prefer the "tolkien fantasy" look and dislike gunpowder weaponry.
2) An in-game reason could be, that dwarves are so stubborn that refuse to stop using old weaponry that worked well for their ancestors. But really if they droped wooden ships they could also drop other things, i always found odd that the empire had access to mortars (taught by the dwarves no less) while the dwarves only had access to rock throwers.

Voss
30-12-2010, 18:31
Same here, but it's mainly (apart from the general aesthetics that developed) the use of the "-punk" ending I tend to critisize. It's just a cheap way to try to immitate the hallowed bigger brother Cyberpunk.

Heh, have to agree with this. The term annoys me solely on this basis, as no steam'punk' setting I've ever seen actually has any 'punk' elements whatsoever.
Steamtech is more appropriate.


As for people tiered of Tolkien-esque fantasy, there is a lot out there that isn't elves, orcs and dwarves, oh my. Howard and Lieber are good examples of fantasy that went on a different path. Its a bit more interesting when you take the moralizing and purity seals off, and basic human behavior isn't limited to 'begats'.

Treadhead_1st
30-12-2010, 20:35
Every time I read something from Tolkien or watch Jackson's LOTR movies or see a new GW LOTR model, I almost always grumble to myself if I'm looking at it from a fantasy perspective. It's just so boring in the long run. They manage to suck the magic out of fantasy - dwarves are short people, hobbits are shorter people, and elves are pretty people. Yes, there are some crazy bits - an occasional bit of magic or a flying beast/dragon - but it's remarkably tame. Cover up the Orcs and Uruk-hai in full plate or mail and I might as well be matching Kingdom of Heaven during the fight scenes.

Don't get me wrong - Tolkien is good, but it's its own breed of story and should just stay away from other Fantasy stories.

I don't disagree with your post, but this bit bugs me, being a fan of literature as I am.

You do realise that Tolkien basically created fantasy (as we recognise it) right? Well, along with C.S. Lewis (they were supposedly good friends too). Dwarves are short people and Elves are pretty - that's something Tolkien created (well, arguably stole from Nordic myths).

You say that Tolkien should "stay away from other fantasy stories", but that's not possible - given that he essentially created fantasy it is other authors using his work as a groundwork for their own creations (because people will have some form of recognition towards fantasy races/lands if those races/lands come from a Tolkienesque perspective). I agree that modern fantasy authors should come up with something new (hence my love of Steven Erickson and Robert Jordan), however that is not a fault of Tolkien; nor the racial tropes he created.

That's why having the Dwarves as masterful engineers is fairly reasonable for Warhammer - black powder and war-machines differentiate themselves from being "just" 'short-people speaking with a Scottish accent and drinking beer' that crop up across a myriad of other products.

I also quite like the steam-tech aspect of the Empire. I feel it really fits with the Rennaisance-era theme of the army as a whole, however were any more steam-tech to be added then it should be in the same vein as the Steam Tank (looking like a Leonardo DaVinci drawing of a 'Land-Ship') rather than the unsightly, illogical, abomination that is the 'mechanical steed'.

But I do worry about the creep of steam-punk into Warhammer. I like it being High Fantasy, if I didn't then I would be playing Warmachine or whatever. A small amount that thematically fits is fine (and may even be unrepresented at present, at least for the Empire), but a drastic increase would be poor in my opinion.

Biff Gunhed
30-12-2010, 21:07
I am slightly amazed that people would object to Steampunk in Warhammer. To be honest, it's the Steampunk elements alongside the High Fantasy that attracted me to the game at all!
One of the best things about Warhammer is that it combines nearly every type of fantasy there is. It wouldn't be right to leave out such a prominent sub-gene as Steampunk.
I can understand people's objections to the Mechanical Steed, but the truth is it follows the Rule of Cool. Certainly people sure be more concerned with the electrical aspects than the steam and clockwork aspects.
But in the end, limiting the technology to what we actually achieved in our history would not be fantasy at all.

Tupinamba
30-12-2010, 21:11
I for one donīt wish fantasy to become steam punk. For me, the whole point of fantasy is exactly to immerse in a different world, culture and mentality, not just to replicate the modern capitalist world view into the past. Magic is NOT just another form of technology (or, IMO, it shouldnīt be). The day you have common magic driven/tech mixed devices you take out the magic out of it.

When people complain about Tolkienesque fantasy and the "unrealistic" and "stereotyped" characters etc. I think they donīt get that the whole setting, and the characters, are not todays people, with todays "disenchanted" (to use a weberian term) attitude to life and the world. Itīs a pre-ancient world, in which nature is alive and conscious, in which people have this perception of an animated, spirit infused nature, and the heroes are driven by an ideology of honour, loyalty to the King, community (even racial) allegiances etc. which may seem unrealistic or politically incorrect in our days, but makes sense in that kind of universe.

Warhammer, despite itīs varied inspirations (of which Tolkien is just one) has managed to create a unique fantasy setting, more grimdark and gritty, but still fantasy. I prefer it to remain that way and not to go in the direction of Warmachine, Eberon etc. The Empire is already in the Renaiscence, so Iīm ok with cannons and the da Vinci things, but thatīs the limit for me.

loveless
30-12-2010, 21:24
You do realise that Tolkien basically created fantasy (as we recognise it) right? Well, along with C.S. Lewis (they were supposedly good friends too). Dwarves are short people and Elves are pretty - that's something Tolkien created (well, arguably stole from Nordic myths).


Not that I disagree with you, I simply find Tolkien a bit dull by the time you get to the Lord of the Rings trilogy. The books are well-written and enjoyable, but as a fantasy story, I find it dull.

Now, Lewis is able to keep things ridiculously fantastic in his stories, and I tend to appreciate them a fair bit more. Magic and myth ooze in Narnia, but Middle Earth seems to humanize too many things. That's just my personal taste - I feel Tolkien "fantasy" is starting point as opposed to a goal, a base camp as opposed to the summit.

I guess I look at this way: There already is a game based on Tolkien's stories. Let's leave it there and let Warhammer be it's own beast - there's no need to try and make it more Tolkienesque.

Voss
30-12-2010, 21:42
I am slightly amazed that people would object to Steampunk in Warhammer. To be honest, it's the Steampunk elements
Honestly, what steampunk elements? There is a small number of steam tanks and the gyrocopter (which may or may not be steam powered), but there isn't any thematic elements to go with these fairly basic uses of steamtech. And they both pre-date the 'steampunk' movement in recent fantasy fiction. Such as it is.



I can understand people's objections to the Mechanical Steed, but the truth is it follows the Rule of Cool.
The rule of looking stupid and being conceptually stupid, perhaps.


@treadhead- no, tolkien only ended up inspiring the main stream mass market fantasy genre. And only the major (largely kid-oriented) branch of it at that. There are a lot of authors who didn't (and still don't) follow the tired old tropes he dug out of Northern European myth, or who took them in different directions. And I'm terribly frightened if you thought Jordan came up with something new.

Treadhead_1st
30-12-2010, 21:49
Not that I disagree with you, I simply find Tolkien a bit dull by the time you get to the Lord of the Rings trilogy. The books are well-written and enjoyable, but as a fantasy story, I find it dull.

Now, Lewis is able to keep things ridiculously fantastic in his stories, and I tend to appreciate them a fair bit more. Magic and myth ooze in Narnia, but Middle Earth seems to humanize too many things. That's just my personal taste - I feel Tolkien "fantasy" is starting point as opposed to a goal, a base camp as opposed to the summit.

I guess I look at this way: There already is a game based on Tolkien's stories. Let's leave it there and let Warhammer be it's own beast - there's no need to try and make it more Tolkienesque.

Ah ok, I may have misinterpreted your post a bit.

The trouble is, I feel, that Tolkien's work is indeed a "base camp"...however it is a "base camp" for most fantasy-based settings and thereby arguably the bland/(now)common racial tropes are carried over into other settings.

Warhammer was created in 1983, and The Lord of the Rings Game was only released in 2001. A big chunk of inspiration for Warhammer was The Lord of the Rings books - to make Warhammer stand-alone there would have to be an almighty shake-up to re-theme some of the races entirely and utterly (Elves being tall and lithe - Tolkien. Dwarves being stout and drinkers - Tolkien...this developed their table-top stats and playstyles).

I certianly wouldn't argue that Warhammer should be more Tolkienesque, however I am not sure that I would want it to be less Tolkienesque. That's why I quite like the "steam power" elements present in the Empire/Skaven/Dwarf forces; however I would not like to see a shift towards a more "steam-punk" setting or emphasis within those races.

On a side note, I feel that Warhammer and LotR games should have different developers - some ideas are good crossovers, but it does make me wonder if the current releases (i.e. Fantasy 8th and War of the Ring) create more linkings between the game and thus possibly racial archeotypes.



@treadhead- no, tolkien only ended up inspiring the main stream mass market fantasy genre. And only the major (largely kid-oriented) branch of it at that. There are a lot of authors who didn't (and still don't) follow the tired old tropes he dug out of Northern European myth, or who took them in different directions. And I'm terribly frightened if you thought Jordan came up with something new.

I wouldn't say so - there's a lot of decent fantasy literature that uses Tolkien influences, and Warhammmer does too (the appearance/racial styles of Elves and Dwarfs).

I also think Jordan did - and there's no need to be frightened. My point is he doesn't follow the standard "Here are some goblins, and orcs, and trolls...and here's the hero, shining and resplendent in honour and glory and goodness" but the Trollocs, Children of Light and so on made great antagonists, whilst there is the interesting development between the Aes Sedai and Asha'man and so on. Is it "new"? No, there are very clear historical influences on many of these aspects. But it's not Tolkienesque, which can often be rare for fantasy (and as someone who read Tolkien and Lewis rather often as a child, it was a breath of fresh air when I got into the seires).

Grimstonefire
30-12-2010, 23:40
I think it's in the 6th and 7th ed Empire books, but there's a bit of art of a highly complex mechanical orchestra thing. Where someone puts in a coin and loads of cool things happen. That's actually insanely advanced really for the empire I think. If they have that in their background there's no reasons they couldn't make advanced warmachines theoretically. Unless the person who built that died, leaving plans that cannot be followed for centuries...

The main issue in warhammer I think is not that such things exist, it's the fact that these things make their way into the army list that is the problem. The army list is supposed to be representative of every typical army that race can field (imo).

Having a steam tank only in 3000 pts would be more realistic I think, as would making the engineer on the clockwork horse thing a special character.

Harbinger
31-12-2010, 00:36
A number of posts have pointed out the use of actual steam-tech devices, but given that some parts of the Warhammer world are filled with warpstone, it could be an alternate fuel/tech source to replace things in our own world that would create a similar tech advancement.

As with the Skaven, it would be a bridge between the magic and tech aspects of Warhammer. I don't know much about the Chaos Dwarfs, but a combination of warpstone and daemon engines (borrowing term from 40k, sorry) would still fit within the world, in my opinion. Or a Victorian style sceince for the Vampire Counts. Given Sylvania is supposedly covered in warpstone dust and has the city Mordheimin its borders, warpstone could be the secret ingrediant for a Frankenstein or Re-animater type of experiment or non-magically inclined Necromancer.

I think warpstone would be a catch all medium, especially if things still look Victorian or maybe early Industrial. Its used as an energy source for technology (Skaven), a component in magic (Vampire Counts), building materials (Skaven), altars for gods (Beastmen), genetic experiments (Skaven, Vampire Counts).

This probably only applies to the more evil armies as High Elves and the Empire probably wouldn't condonewarpstone being flung around and being fed to children.

Tah Kazak Rik
31-12-2010, 00:42
For skaven it's fine.
For dwarves, it's a bit wierd.
For empire it's beyond them.

Everything else, unless it's a daemon, it doesn't fit.

Why is it weird for Dwarves, they are the most advanced race out there. They have tons of tech in the fluff that is not represented in the game.

Yeah Skaven have tons of nuclear tech but its stolen parts, unreliable, and faulty.

Dwarves invented gun powder, steam tech, alcohol tech, dirigible tech, hydro tech, and ways to forge and craft with unmatched skill.

If anyone deserves Steam Tech its Dwarves.

Grimstonefire
31-12-2010, 00:50
In terms of technological achievments that are reliable.... Chaos Dwarfs should be the most advanced race in the warhammer world. They have all the dwarf skills plus the 'one size fits all' daemonic energy batteries, without all the old dwarf traditions holding them back.

The skaven probably are equal overall just not reliably, as they've already made a combined telephone and TV haven't they? The Warpsqueaker.

Tah Kazak Rik
31-12-2010, 00:57
In terms of technological achievments that are reliable.... Chaos Dwarfs should be the most advanced race in the warhammer world. They have all the dwarf skills plus the 'one size fits all' daemonic energy batteries, without all the old dwarf traditions holding them back.

The skaven probably are equal overall just not reliably, as they've already made a combined telephone and TV haven't they? The Warpsqueaker.

Well I will coincide that the Chaos Dwarves should be the most advanced. And to also support your idea, besides not just having old traditions, the CD's also do not have a ultra conservative Engineers Guild that punish inventiveness.

I wont say the Skaven are equal, because they dont make anything themselves they steal and convert. Without other races tech they would have nothing. And the fact that nothing is reliable makes them not the most advanced.

It would be like this:

1. Chaos Dwarves
2. Dwarves
3. Cathay
4. Empire and Skaven. Both needed Dwarven tech to "invent" their own.

mrtn
31-12-2010, 02:24
I wont say the Skaven are equal, because they dont make anything themselves they steal and convert. Of course they do. Where are the dwarven telephones, or doomwheels, or trains, or gatling guns? I'm probably forgetting something obvious as well.

Lockjaw
31-12-2010, 02:37
Steampunk is the bane of fantasy.

when done right, they go together pretty well, ready any Bas-Lag book by China Meiville


eitherway, I like most of the Skrye magitech, and dwarf steamtech (though the gyrocoptor should have more a davinci air screw and less modern heli look)
and the steamtank as it looks now is fine.

rubber hoses, hydraulics, and very high-tech/modern aspects though, I don't like as much, like for awhile, GW kept showing off rat ogre conversions that used parts of 40k ork drednoughts, that was too high tech and made me think they were trying for a space skaven army at first.

Ar-Gimilzor
31-12-2010, 02:51
Warhammer was always meant to be an early renaissance setting, in terms of the most advanced technology available. As long as it is wooden, very fragile, rare and Da Vinci-looking, then it is part of Warhammer and it doesn't create too many waves.

The problems start when people with little respect for the "historical" part of the setting get excited and want to make something "really cool"--then we end up with airship-carriers with gatling guns that can withstand dragon attacks. Or clockwork horses. Or steam tanks. Or ironclads. Or guns which go beyond early-renaissance tech. Orcs are a good rule of thumb--if the technology gets so advanced that Orcs (with their rickety wooden catapults) are just completely left in the dust, then you've gone too far.

Tah Kazak Rik
31-12-2010, 05:43
Of course they do. Where are the dwarven telephones, or doomwheels, or trains, or gatling guns? I'm probably forgetting something obvious as well.

Well Dwarves have Steam Trains, and gatling guns, read the fluff and you will see.

Also Skaven dont make their own parts, it is heavy implied that they steal the parts and make them work for their designs.




The problems start when people with little respect for the "historical" part of the setting get excited and want to make something "really cool"--then we end up with airship-carriers with gatling guns that can withstand dragon attacks. Or clockwork horses. Or steam tanks. Or ironclads. Or guns which go beyond early-renaissance tech. Orcs are a good rule of thumb--if the technology gets so advanced that Orcs (with their rickety wooden catapults) are just completely left in the dust, then you've gone too far.

Of course I have little respect for the historical part because its not history, its fantasy, and in fantasy anything is allowed as long as its explained within that worlds canon.

Orcs have rickety tech but it works for its purpose, and many things like Steam Tanks are rare, so the tech advancement doesnt matter as much.

The following is not directed at any specific person:

I think its so funny how people get flustered because of the "historical" aspect of a non-historical game. Its the World GW wanted to create, they are allowed to make anything they wish appear in their world. Dragons, Trolls, Giants, Beastmen, rat folks, dwarves, elves, magical items, magic lores and the lot are not historical.

Thats like complaining that the Brets are stuck in the Dark Ages level of Tech, while the Empire is the 17th century. Just silly to make that argument, because that is how GW wanted it to be.

Also the way units are used, the way combat works, everything in the BRB is not completely historically accurate. So If you dont like it then stop playing and make your own game that is completely historical.

Ar-Gimilzor
31-12-2010, 07:19
Of course I have little respect for the historical part because its not history, its fantasy, and in fantasy anything is allowed as long as its explained within that worlds canon.
And therein lies the rub. Warhammer is a fantasy, but the physical underpinnings are what we know and are familiar with (ie. our reality) with the fantasy bits tacked on and explained so that they "make sense". To put it simply, regiments of pikemen require food, rest and act much in the same way we would expect them to act in our reality (back in the early renaissance, of course). When something veers away from that--ie. magic--it needs to be thoroughly explained so that we understand how it works in relation to the "normal" stuff. That means that significant technological advances would have the same affect on primitive factions as they did in our world, namely whoever used the newer tech would steamroll the primitive guys. It then becomes a question of what technology goes too far--and guns are really dangerous in this regard, as even small advances in gunpowder tech render the cool medieval elements totally obsolete.


Thats like complaining that the Brets are stuck in the Dark Ages level of Tech, while the Empire is the 17th century. Just silly to make that argument, because that is how GW wanted it to be.
Well, I think this is a valid complaint. You need something to make up for the technological divide, but magic won't work because the Empire has just as much battle magic (if not more). So, we're left scratching our heads, wondering how the Bretonnians are holding their borders.


Also the way units are used, the way combat works, everything in the BRB is not completely historically accurate. So If you dont like it then stop playing and make your own game that is completely historical.
People who dislike the technological dissonance have just as much of a right to express their views and try to "pull" WH in the direction they want as those who don't care/like the dissonance. Bretonnia used to have canons iirc, so someone at GW actively made the decision to change that. It can change back to the way it was just as easily.

bert n ernie
31-12-2010, 10:26
I wanted to add to what Al-Gimilzor said.

Think about this in terms of any other story. Warhammer is most certainly a form of story, and is oft compared to things like Middle-Earth and other worlds.
Well these worlds need consistency. When they don't have it, it leaps out of our comprehension of that world.
The mechanical cyber-steed jumps outside of the realms of possibility of the world. Think of it like when Fonzy jumped over a shark while on water-skis in Happy Days. He's very cool, and he can do anything. But can he jump over a shark? No.

Or the bus in Speed. It's a bus. I can not make a huge gap in a road, and jump over it like a skater jumps a ramp. It's just not physically possible. Nothing previously in the story, or the world of the story prepared the audience for it. There was no build up (that I saw) and it was such a vast leap in technology for that race that people did not want to accept it.

Warhammer's consistency has been slap-dash in the past, and I've sometimes been willing to accept that. However there are a lot of people(me included) who are not comfortable with a sudden leap in technology, with no explanation. There are no engineer-mages. How did this thing come into being without magic? Why wasn't wood used? How does a metal horse have the energy to propel itself? How do the legs co-ordinate themselves?

Similar questions could be asked about possessions of other races.

The warhammer writers need to choose a point in history that they will use as their 'most technological' inspiration. They can then backtrack, and some races can vary by a few hundred yearsbackwards along that time-line. They can even have the most advanced races use inventions that never fully came to fruition, but were theorised, if done well.
However to go forwards, and not advance the story time-line makes zero sense.

Sandlemad
31-12-2010, 11:45
I think it's in the 6th and 7th ed Empire books, but there's a bit of art of a highly complex mechanical orchestra thing. Where someone puts in a coin and loads of cool things happen. That's actually insanely advanced really for the empire I think. If they have that in their background there's no reasons they couldn't make advanced warmachines theoretically. Unless the person who built that died, leaving plans that cannot be followed for centuries...

This kind of thing works well as a counterargument for people complaining about how grimdark WH is, how the Empire is on the brink of collapse, how it's the end times... Sure, in the long run. But right now, the Empire (or factions and groups within it) have the time and money to create gigantic display pieces like the Automorial of Middenheim or Emperor Boris' Tomb Barque in the 7th ed. rulebook.
It shows how powerful, wealthy and opulent they are just as much as it highlights technical engineering skill. It also shows how disparate technology's spread can be; you're not going to find something like that in the ****-end of Stirland.

snottlebocket
31-12-2010, 12:58
I see absolutely no point in quibbling about what the Empire can and can't do. The Empire isn't set in any single one era of history, it pretty much manages to cram pretty much a 1000 years of history into a single point of time.

The Empire has everything from isolated homesteads deep in dark forests and crusading knights sallying forth from cold stone castles to golden age multi decked warships armed in the finest gunpowder weaponry and warmachines. Almost Victorian cities with Universities, complex scientific capabilities and industries (for instances the production of lenses for telescopes and other glass work)

It's essential to remember that the warhammer world and especially the empire follows no logical progression but is instead a pile of cliche's and stereotypes gathered together by the rule of cool. It cherrypicks the coolest things between club wielding barbarians and fully industrialized society and places it all together in one world.

Steampunk would fit right in there.

Tah Kazak Rik
31-12-2010, 15:24
The thing people seem to be forgetting about all this Steam/Clockwork/Alcohol powered tech is that it is rare.

Yes the Empire may have access to clockwork horses, steam tanks, and so forth.

Yes the Dwarves may have acess to zepplin, steam/ironclad ships, and so forth.

But for these races specifically these types of technology are rare and far between in the fluff both offical and not.

That is the reason that these techological advances dont completely eliminate the competition because they are rare and I would imagine within the realm of Warhammer, highly expensive.

Thats why there was 1 zepplin, why there are like 10 steam tanks, 1 auto-orchastra, 1 this and 1 that.

And its not like a majority of players utilize steam punk themes or tech.

The only reason we in the real world adopted advanced tech like is because it helped make battles more "organized", cost less in the long run, made things more "efficent", and many of the newer inventions allowed untrained troops to be able to fight without spending weeks/months/years training him to use things like a longbow. Any bloke could pick up a rifle and be trained to use it within days. But that didnt mean that longbows were inferior, at least during the 15th, 16th, and 17th centuries.

GW created all thsi funky tech because they wanted people who enjoy steam punk to be able to enjoy warhammer as well. Its wrong to want it removed just because "you" dont like it. It allows diversity of players to enjoy the game.

And in the warhammer world the technology is not always superior to the more primative.

Okay here my my own personal example:

My Most recent dwarf army is a mechanized army. My Lord wears armour powered by runes and alcohol steam fuel. But his armour in terms of what it does (+1 T, +1 W, and Immunity to Killing blow), is no better than another suit of Rune armour with the same ability. It was merely created because he could make it without the help of his runelord and so used technology to free himself of his dependance on runelords.

Next example: My army uses Steam powered automatons. They are handgun wielding Iron Giant-esk troops. But they are no better than a normal dwarf using a handgun. The only reason they were created by my Engineer King is because he wanted to create something that was just as good as normal dwarves, but would allow him to spare dwarven lives. So he created steam driven handgunners. They function the same as normal dwarves but do not require food, water, sleep, and so forth. They also prevent dwarves from having to sacrifice their lives in combat.

In both examples the tech does not improve anything, nor is it superior in terms of overall effect, but is created our of another purpose.

Here is a GW example:

Mortars fire and act very similar to Stone Throwers. However the Stone Thrower is superior to the Mortar in strength and range. But the mortars for the empire are easier to make, easier to load, and easier to train the crew to use and maintain. But for the Dwarves Stone Throwers have been a staple, and many of their machines have existed for centuries and there is no reason to use mortars when they have access to the Stone Thrower.

Bolt Throwers no matter the race are the same. This is because the Orcs despite having rickety tech, according to the fluff, make shockingly strong rickety tech. Same goes for their stone throwers.

A Longbow has more range than a handgun but less punch. Same for crossbows. However each have their own use, such as volley fire or simple range bonus which can grant a extra shooting phase. So yes a handgun may be superior in punching power but it does not make anything obsolete.

Steam Horses are in no way superior to normal war horses. They are rare, hard to make, and difficult to use. So yes the tech exists but it does not make normal horses useless.

I could go on and on, but my point is that the tech in the way it is presented should not cause dispute because it does not alienate other races, it only presents more options for that race.

asphodel
31-12-2010, 16:44
I think it's in the 6th and 7th ed Empire books, but there's a bit of art of a highly complex mechanical orchestra thing. Where someone puts in a coin and loads of cool things happen. That's actually insanely advanced really for the empire I think. If they have that in their background there's no reasons they couldn't make advanced warmachines theoretically. Unless the person who built that died, leaving plans that cannot be followed for centuries...

I just wanted to point out that something very much like this was done in the middle ages by this Iraqi inventor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Jazari) from the 12th-13th centuries. Scroll down to "musical robot band". It basically speaks for itself, but really Al-Jazari invented a band of automatons that could play a number of programmable songs and perform a number of different actions. I think the article describes them as drummers, but with a little ingenuity from the Empire's engineers I can imagine a few other instrument types jumping into the mix.

I agree though that there should be more severe limitations for the Empire's use of certain tech's.