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arthurfallz
28-12-2010, 12:59
So while the family was gathered `round in celebration at Yuletide, conversation came to Warhammer which I knew my brother used to play. By the end of the chat, he wanted to get back into WHFB.

He is keen to play Tomb Kings, but I cautioned him about their use in 8th. He was a tad dismissive about the reservations, and was curious what people thought was so useless about them now? Is it just the changes to Fear and Terror?

I don't want him to blow a lot of money on an army that won't hold up, especially since he will want to play at his local store which will not house rule for his sake.

scarletsquig
28-12-2010, 13:35
There's not much wrong with their playstyle, it's just that almost everything in their army book is now too expensive in points, by about 25% or more.

The core choices are especially bad.

Skeletons can't stand up to the massed infantry attacks of 8th edition. Chariots can't break infantry units anymore due to steadfast. The army is no good at attrition whatsoever.

So, fighting a 2000 point game with them is quite similar to trying to beat a 2000 point army with a 1500 point army... you'll get a few wins if you get really lucky and also play perfectly, but most of the time you'll get splatted with ease.

And yeah, fear is pretty worthless these days with LD 10-with-rerolls being achieveable for most armies on any fear checks.

arthurfallz
28-12-2010, 13:47
Thanks, I'll forward this thread to him so he can peek in on it and make up his mind.

Caitsidhe
28-12-2010, 13:52
Tomb Kings in 8th Edition has the same problems it had in 7th Edition... only multiply them by two. :) The core troops are awful and overpriced. They only thing they had going for them was Fear. That mechanic has been largely gutted. Magic for the Tomb Kings is largely a waste because the primary purpose is just to allow them to try and overcome the built in downside of being undead. You need their magic just to simulate marching. Unlike Vampire Counts, they can't march even when a Mummy is with them. This is likely to change in the new book if/when they get around to it.

The only competitive build I ever found with Tomb Kings was a Khalida Poison Archer based monstrosity. Even that is a one trick pony. You have giant statues and chariots below your hill ready to counter charge anything that gets too close while you shoot and shoot and shoot... using your Tomb Scorpions to take out their Warmachines. If they get to you the game is over. Eh. 8th Edition makes it impossible for event his extreme build to work.

BlackVomit
28-12-2010, 13:58
Scarletsquig is spot on. The army is too expensive and was based around the concept of outnumber by fear, which no longer exists in 8th.

Also, the army is limited by the armybook itself ex skeleton units cannot exceed 40 & only one can take a magic banner, tomb guard cannot exceed 25, the Casket's cost is taken from the Heroes instead from the Rare.

Considering Tomb Kings are rumoured to get a new book in about 5/6 months, I'd wait until then before investing a lot of money into it. Nothing is stopping you from buying a 2nd hand army book (Ebay?) & proxying some models to get the hang of it.

My 2c..

rodmillard
28-12-2010, 14:04
It really depends on your local meta-game. If your opponents play "sub-par" themed lists, then TK can hold their own with the best of them. If, on the other hand, you are likely to be facing cheesefest tournament builds (even though many of the worst of them have been down powered in 8th) then you might as well just play to see how long the TK player can survive.

With the exceptions of Chaos Dwarfs and Dogs of War (neither of which is officially supported any more) TK are the oldest army still in use - and it shows. They were way behind the later 6th ed books like brettonians and dwarfs when seventh came out, and the power surge that came during seventh just left them in the dust.

Fortunately, the rumour mongers put them in the first three books coming out for 8th, so I expect them to become competetive (if not actually popular) in the next 12 months or so.

theunwantedbeing
28-12-2010, 14:23
To be honest, Tomb kings are fine in 8th edition.
Most of the bitching about much they suck comes from before they got an errata clarifying a whole load of "issues" they had and making the army a whole lot more usable.

DeathlessDraich
28-12-2010, 14:36
He is keen to play Tomb Kings, but I cautioned him about their use in 8th. He was a tad dismissive about the reservations, and was curious what people thought was so useless about them now? Is it just the changes to Fear and Terror?
.

This is a common myth and as a player of all armies I can safely say that a good TK player will still win.

It is a good choice to start TK now because a new army book is due soon - April/May but don't quote me.

bonertron
28-12-2010, 21:55
I actually just had a game with my Tomb Kings a couple weeks ago, the first one in about two years. I went with the Khalida list, and had two units of 50 archers, two catapults, a casket, tomb guard, scorpion and some swarms.

In total, I had Khalida, a liche priest, and two princes. At first, things were looking good, 100 poison arrows that ALWAYS hit on 5s (screw you, cover!!). Soon I came to realized though, that since my opponent had a lvl 4 caster, I would basically not get any incantations off. Even if you roll a 6 with your prince, the dispell only needs a 2 to stop it. Most of the time, my opponent would just have to move a dice to his used pile, due to the +4 from his caster. Even the two dice incantations were useless. The only one I got was from Khalida, because hers cant be stopped. Anyways, combat ended up being kind of a joke too.

Overall, the TKs will continue to collect dust, until the new book. There is no sense in playing something that terrible, when you have 7 other armies.

CaliforniaGamer
28-12-2010, 22:05
To be honest, Tomb kings are fine in 8th edition.
Most of the bitching about much they suck comes from before they got an errata clarifying a whole load of "issues" they had and making the army a whole lot more usable.

I would agree. TK is a sleeper army that in the right hands can be devastating. Their magic can be nigh unstoppable and no partial hit catapults firingx2 turn is devastating.

They could be better of course, but by no means the worst army.

but, I would also wait until for a new book and new models, mainly because the model range is horrid atm.

smithers
28-12-2010, 22:52
I actually just had a game with my Tomb Kings a couple weeks ago, the first one in about two years. I went with the Khalida list, and had two units of 50 archers, two catapults, a casket, tomb guard, scorpion and some swarms.

In total, I had Khalida, a liche priest, and two princes. At first, things were looking good, 100 poison arrows that ALWAYS hit on 5s (screw you, cover!!). Soon I came to realized though, that since my opponent had a lvl 4 caster, I would basically not get any incantations off. Even if you roll a 6 with your prince, the dispell only needs a 2 to stop it. Most of the time, my opponent would just have to move a dice to his used pile, due to the +4 from his caster. Even the two dice incantations were useless. The only one I got was from Khalida, because hers cant be stopped. Anyways, combat ended up being kind of a joke too.

Overall, the TKs will continue to collect dust, until the new book. There is no sense in playing something that terrible, when you have 7 other armies.

Too bad you misplayed this; natural 1 or 2 is dispel failure and the failing wizard cannot dispel any more that turn. This is a terribly important rules point for a TK player to be aware of. Always make sure you note who is attempting to dispel and watch those single die rolls.

Also, in regards to dispel dice, this is why I like the Wizarding hat. In my last game I tabled Vampires. None of my lore spells had any impact on the game, but my opponent saved most of his dice each turn to deal with them. This meant that about 1/2 my incantations got through, including one that resulted in 6 wounds on his general from the catapult!

I've never fielded the casket, but I think either this or the hat are key to making sure some incants get through. And if you take neither then load up on bound items so your power dice dont' go to waste.

Ratbeast
29-12-2010, 00:32
Models are ugly and need a major overhaul, lol :rolleyes:

Hochdorf
29-12-2010, 01:03
I'm really looking forward to the new TKs. If they give the skeleton and tomb guard an overhaul of the same quality that the VC skeletons and grave guard got then I will be very tempted to pick some up. New skeleton horses would be schweet too - those things are ancient. I guess the main problem is that essentially everything in the army needs an update at this point, but that was true of Dark Eldar too, and I really like the direction they've taken with the new stuff for them.

The bearded one
29-12-2010, 01:09
Any army can be 'devastating in the right hands', but in general an army like TK won't stand up to other armies that are 'devastating in most peoples hands'.

A good player can make the most of pretty much any army or list, but seriously when 2 equally skilled players are involved then the worse armybook should have a harder time. If an opponent would plump down 30 bloodletters, how would TK deal with it without using 3 times the points that block costs? In general opinion TK's stronger brother VC has been nerfed to go from the top tier to lower middle. What chance do TK have, who were low to begin with? His brother appears to have been out of the game for a while now. He will need to get used to the new rules as well.

TK units are pricey for what they do. Units of goblins and skaven slaves can tear apart units of skeletons of twice their cost. I'd just hold on before starting TK because it's pretty likely that they are in the pipeline for somewhere in 2011. It'd be better to start with something easier like skaven, high elves, dwarfs or warriors of chaos to get the hang of the new game.

Lilike
29-12-2010, 02:04
Well there is no denying that TK is an weak army in 8:th edition (it wasn't exactly an strong army in 7:th edition either). Much more seriously however is that playing the army has turned into an big snoozefest for both myself and my opponents. TK was always an very unforgiving army but now it has become stupidly unforgiving, against most armies you will have to really optimize your playing style to have any chance of winning, against others you have to optimize your playing style AND be seriously lucky with the dice to have an chance of pulling even the slightest win.

Now I don't mind a challenge (I have been playing TK since 6:th edition) but the fact that the army has become so weak makes me feel like I am forced to use the same boring strategies every time I play or I will just have to rely on luck to carry the day. Some people might not care about this, they might feel that playing an army that is moving backwards every single game and have to rely on luck to win some match-ups is completely acceptable. I am not one of these people however and my TK:s are not seeing as much action as they used to.

With that said, if your brother are just starting the army these problems might not be obvious at first. And at the time they might potentially start making the army boring for him (should this happen) the new army book might be just around the corner! An TK army is also an classical babe magnet which can be an additional perk should he is single (or Italian).

Wyrmnax
29-12-2010, 13:11
The problem with TK is exactly what Scarletsquig said on post #2 - They are overpriced.

People can win with it? Duh. If i field 1 single Chaos Lord i can win a 3k points game, all i need is a lot of planning and luck. "But people can win with it!" is not a valid excuse when you have a random number generator built into the game.

Right now TK units are very overexpensive. Also, they are expected to get a new armybook by next year.

Urgat
29-12-2010, 13:28
my opponent would just have to move a dice to his used pile, due to the +4 from his caster.

Then your opponent was either a cheater or you need to slap the dispell rules in his face so he learns them.
To the OP: a point your bro might find inteersting is that OnG are the next ones to get a book, then the ogres, then... bingo. He might want to wait for a while.

gdsora
29-12-2010, 15:26
Things that have gone wrong for Tomb Kings

1. Step up. Increases the casualties of skeletons, while barely increasing the output of them. This is probably the worst offender, as a Tomb king player I ABSOLUTELY hate getting into combat because of this. It also punishes the armies rather low Toughness/Armor
values)
2. Steadfast. Chariots main use was to counter flank and break an opponent, and unless you bring a unit of Ten of them they can not do that.
3. Fear nerf. Goes without saying fear is much less potent now.
4. Dispel Rules/Caster Bonus. It is insanely easy to dispel Tomb King Magic with having a +3/+4 to dispel (Also for whatever reason high Liche Priests got shafted by being lvl 3 despite its base price)
5. Marchblock change/Charge distance. Makes it much easier to get to your squishy bowmen/ catapults)
6. New Lores. Tomb Kings have pitiful magic defenses, and with the really powerful new spells/ease of casting them its easy for your army to take large amounts of magical damage.

Shnerg
29-12-2010, 15:53
To be completely honest, units of 40 archers are the only way you even have a chance in holy hell of winning. You shoot, and shoot, and shoot, and shoot. Keep a good harassment section, consisting of 2-3 Scorpions, a fair amount of carrion and maybe 5 Swarms to pop any low priority targets. Use chariots to flank small units, and don't use the cavalry at all.

Sexiest_hero
29-12-2010, 16:26
Tomb Kings are fine in 8th. You can spam incantations either forcing the other player to use 2 dice or risk rolling a 1 or 2 and giving you free will do do what you want. Remember that a one or do is an auto fail to dispel but you can still cast on a one or 2 no prob. Then after you have blown all of your incantations, use your power dice for bound items and a king with the Wiz hat since incantations don't use Power dice. On the other side of magic you get TWO! dispel scrolls and an item that removes all RiP spells, so bye bye gut magic, crazy life buff spells, and that pesky dragon that's now a lvl 2 wizard again. Add in core that can shoot and be brought back to Unlife An Icon bearer that is cheap and useful Thunder stomping tomb scorpions and bone giants. Big blocks of Str 6 constructs. and the Freaking ARK on top of a folding tower. and you have a beast of an army.

People who say TK suck havent learned to change thier style of play yet. YOu just can play LOL chariots. TK, Brittoinian knights, and WE play style have changed, but they are all solid armies.

CaliforniaGamer
29-12-2010, 18:40
Tomb Kings are fine in 8th. You can spam incantations either forcing the other player to use 2 dice or risk rolling a 1 or 2 and giving you free will do do what you want. Remember that a one or do is an auto fail to dispel but you can still cast on a one or 2 no prob. Then after you have blown all of your incantations, use your power dice for bound items and a king with the Wiz hat since incantations don't use Power dice. On the other side of magic you get TWO! dispel scrolls and an item that removes all RiP spells, so bye bye gut magic, crazy life buff spells, and that pesky dragon that's now a lvl 2 wizard again. Add in core that can shoot and be brought back to Unlife An Icon bearer that is cheap and useful Thunder stomping tomb scorpions and bone giants. Big blocks of Str 6 constructs. and the Freaking ARK on top of a folding tower. and you have a beast of an army.

People who say TK suck havent learned to change thier style of play yet. YOu just can play LOL chariots. TK, Brittoinian knights, and WE play style have changed, but they are all solid armies.


all the above. there are some crazy things only TKs can do and people are only just waking up to this.

but again the models are so horrid, its hard to justify building the army.

The bearded one
29-12-2010, 18:58
Hahaha-no.

If they get into combat with you it's pretty much over for that unit. Sure, you can do incantations on 1 dice without auto-fails, but you are still far behind the enemy dispells because they get wizard bonusses. Even if the wizard breaks his concentration and rolls a 1 or 2, your opponent can continue dispelling without wizardbonus.

Tk, Brets and WE indeed have to change their playstyle but they are fundamentally handicapped by the gamesystem. Wood elves struggle against steadfast. Dryads and wardancers have to bring enemy units below 5 models or they are steadfast. Gladeguard and eternal guard are very squishy. Bretonnians will have to cancel steadfast and break their enemy on the turn they charge, or else their entire knight lance is dead in the water. TK are overcosted and fear is nerfed. On top of that they're quite vulnerable to the megaspells purple sun, pit of shades and dwellers below.

Don't kid yourself. They can be very decent armies, but solid? Only in exceptional circumstances or a relaxed gaming enviroment will they be solid. Tomb kings have some very interesting stuff like their 'second magic phase' as they can essentially double up on casting by doing incantations and using powerdice for boundspells and wizarding hat. They have a funny selection of monsters and monstrous units and are the only army that can use units of chariots. But their regular stuff is too bad for the points. Units of goblins and skaven tear your skeletons apart.

Don't get me wrong. I'd love to be proven fatally wrong in a game and I think they could be an incredible army in style, models and options but currently your average gamer, let alone a beginner, will heavily struggle with them. For the time being I'd let them sleep in their tombs untill they break open the burial jar with new armybook.

Lilike
29-12-2010, 21:36
Hahaha-no.

If they get into combat with you it's pretty much over for that unit. Sure, you can do incantations on 1 dice without auto-fails, but you are still far behind the enemy dispells because they get wizard bonusses. Even if the wizard breaks his concentration and rolls a 1 or 2, your opponent can continue dispelling without wizardbonus.

Tk, Brets and WE indeed have to change their playstyle but they are fundamentally handicapped by the gamesystem. Wood elves struggle against steadfast. Dryads and wardancers have to bring enemy units below 5 models or they are steadfast. Gladeguard and eternal guard are very squishy. Bretonnians will have to cancel steadfast and break their enemy on the turn they charge, or else their entire knight lance is dead in the water. TK are overcosted and fear is nerfed. On top of that they're quite vulnerable to the megaspells purple sun, pit of shades and dwellers below.

Don't kid yourself. They can be very decent armies, but solid? Only in exceptional circumstances or a relaxed gaming enviroment will they be solid. Tomb kings have some very interesting stuff like their 'second magic phase' as they can essentially double up on casting by doing incantations and using powerdice for boundspells and wizarding hat. They have a funny selection of monsters and monstrous units and are the only army that can use units of chariots. But their regular stuff is too bad for the points. Units of goblins and skaven tear your skeletons apart.

Don't get me wrong. I'd love to be proven fatally wrong in a game and I think they could be an incredible army in style, models and options but currently your average gamer, let alone a beginner, will heavily struggle with them. For the time being I'd let them sleep in their tombs untill they break open the burial jar with new armybook.

All the above are correct, surprisingly so seeing how it comes from an dwarf :D.

I am however a bit surprised to hear that many people posting in this thread are having problems getting their spells through. This has been the least of my problem since it has become possible to throw a ridiculous amounts of dice in each magic phase with TK due 8:th edition Hero/Lord cap changes. The problem has rather come in the form of always being outnumbered by superior troops in every battle.

In previous editions TK had a number of benefits which made up for the fact that the troops sucked in prolonged combat. It was (still is) very very easy to flank charge things with TK units due to the extra movement in the magic phase, this was the way a lot of games was won before 8:th edition since charging an flank of most non stubborn (non monster) units tended to send them running more often than not. These days... not so much. The second big benefit was the fact that unlike most other armies TK infantry didn't run after one turn of combat if charged in the front by something reasonably killy. Now the situation is quite the opposite and the undead rule have become an burden rather than an benefit.

In my experience the way to play TK in 8:th edition is to try to avoid combat as long as possible so that you can put enough shooting into the enemy to actually stand an chance to beat them in hand to hand combat. In 8:th edition I have often managed to combo charge (very easy to achieve with TK) units worth but an fraction of the units charging them but still ending up crumbling to nothing after a few turns of combat. Solid indeed....

SotF
29-12-2010, 23:12
With a new army book coming, I'd say go with the army they want.

At the moment, I'd go slow in building it and keep an eye on temporarily counting them as something else until the rules get updated. Vampire Counts is an option with several similar rules and use the Tomb Kings current rules as an army building aid.

Sure he isn't going to start out with a super army, but few people do. One thing a lot of people seem to forget is that not all strategies work for everyone, and you kind of need to look for ones that fit you. It's something that develops as you play and you notice the holes and fill them in.

Then you have the local scene, some armies might do very well at the local clubs and fall apart if you visit another, and the reverse is also true.

On top of that, if your brother used to play Tomb Kings, he might want to go back to that for nostalgia or simply because he still has some of the models. People should play what they want to play and to much focus on what's currently the best will either burn the player out or their wallet...

Noght
29-12-2010, 23:22
From an investment standpoint maybe NOW is the time to actually buy some basic Tomb Kings minis.

If the army is as bad as advertised (I don't doubt what you all say) then maybe bargins are available. If you invest in Skeletons now you'll probably save money later.

Just for the record, I'm not selling TK figs, in fact just bought my first Screaming Skull Catapult the other day (my brother wants a TK army so we figure now is the time to buy.)

Noght

bluemage
30-12-2010, 01:09
I wouldn't buy any TK models at the moment. The TK book is old like 10 years old, the models are ancient and most are quite ugly. I fully expect TK to get the dark eldar treatment with an entirely new model range.

Lord Inquisitor
30-12-2010, 02:18
Especially since VC got new skeletons, I would expect the TK to get the same.

It's a tough time to start the army as you don't know what new models there will be or even which units will be good in the new book.

Trains_Get_Robbed
30-12-2010, 03:11
T.K realistically do blow hard. Their are many overpriced and useless things avialble to them being a 6th ed. A.B.

This being said however, (like all armies) if the general is intuititve and tactically smart, and took time to bulid his/her list to optimum performance, than T.K in reality aren't that bad.

Yes, "OH WOE IS ME" archers blow in combat, but that is something we all already know. How about a Icon Bearer with the Banner of Armor Pirecing, and the unit with the Flamming Banner/Undying Legion to make that unit of 50 bowmen smack 20-30 man blocks in the face (looks even to C.W)?

Yes, Chariots cannot break ranks any longer. However, that dosen't mean I cant use a small delivery unit of chariots on a falnk to interdict with a Vanguard move, threatening with impact hits and a Charcter that is a Tomb Prince or King.

Yes, shooting can be useful for the army, only ever needing 5's to hit, and SSC's being nice and cheap. However, that dosen't mean that one can't run a very combat oriented Tomb Guard unit with the (+1 to hit banner) with a Charcter in there (Fencer's Blades anyone for 5 A on +2 in challenges?) for 2's on most units. In addition, how about Usbshupati? 3 attacks with Stomp at an an I, that isn't last, with S6? Name something outside of them that strikes with S6 at an I level not last? Very few units. Don't forget they suffer -1 less on crumble, and are relativley cheap for what they offer. That dosen't wet your appetite? Bone Giants, and Tomb Scorpions aren't your enemies friends either.

Yes, T.K magic is supposed to make up for what the undead takes away, yes, it is a handicap to most. Though, this being said, it goes off automatically, one can have up 10 castings go off in a 2,500 point game for example: Bounds, Casket, King, Prince, H.L.P, L.P. Meanwhile, also have great acess to magic items such as two dispell scrolls, an item that dispells all remain in plays, and also a staff that allows rerolls for a poor Incatation (from what should be a high) priest.

Yes, T.K charcters are manadatory, and screw them over at low point levels. This being stated, I don't know anyone in my local metagame that plays at below 1,500 even when starting an army its just too small. Not to mention the charcters themselves in say 2,000 an up can pay for themselves with unusally high stats for what one pays for in a 8th ed. model (T5 really? And your less than a Old Blood, Choas Lord and Dwarf Lord?).

Want to overwhelm magic? Try the Wizard's Hat on a H.L.P or T.K and or, Bound items like the Fireball Ring from BrB. Watch as your opponet gets sad as you spam magicks against him like your runnning the old 7th ed. Tzneetch Demon Circus. :D *stares blankley ahead.*

Lastly, need a partner to ally with in 2v2 3v3 etc. . .? Try T.K! They are unstoppable and make any magic phase in a team game phenominal as it forces your opponet(s) to rip out their eyes as they struggle to decide what to dispell!

T.K are bad, and 'in the right hands are good' mentality is true, but I'm hard-pressed in my local meta (and probably for many) to find outstanding opponets all the time. Just remember that they are 'rumored to be done within the year' so that may come into consideration.

*Is it just me or is T.K and old armies latlely getting a new player base (looks to two T.K players in gaming group)? Hmm, sounds like a topic thread to me! :D

muggins
30-12-2010, 16:16
I just started Tomb Kings around February this year. They are fun, but are woefully underpowered at this time. I just like the fluff and the idea of a mummy leading all these undead warriors across deserts.

Satan
30-12-2010, 16:26
I guess your brother would like som input as to what to get. Here's a particularly nasty Tomb kings list which won our last tournament bout under the ETC format:

Lords

High Lichie Priest - Heirophant

Tomb King - General - Handweapon Shield, Wizard's Hat

Heroes

Lichie Priest - Casket of souls

Icon Bearer - Bsb

Core

Skeleton Warriors - 40 st standard HWS

Skeleton Warriors - 30 st standard Bows

Skeleton Warriors - 10 st standard Bows

Special

Tomb Guards - 30 st Full Command HWS

Tomb Scorpion

Tomb Scorpion

Rare

Screaming skull catapult - skulls of the foe

Screaming skull catapult - skulls of the foe

Please not that I haven't written any magic items down apart from the wizarding hat, but I also know he had that standard that forbids you to march for a turn... Think there might've been an additional Tomb Prince in there as well...

Lilike
30-12-2010, 17:22
Hmm the size of the Tomb Guard unit in that list exceeds what is normally allowed, special tournament conditions?

Haravikk
30-12-2010, 17:35
I think TK can be played relatively competitively, the big problem really is that most units are now paying far too much for Fear, as the effect of it has been greatly reduced, which is a good thing, but not for units that are still paying for the ability to auto-break their enemies.

It's important though to remember when number-crunching that skeletons can be brought back. So while the units can't auto-break after a turn or two anymore, they can still potentially outlast enemy infantry blocks, and if they do fail a fear test you get to hit on 3's with skeletons which is always fun!

A lot of the naysayers do seem to forget that part of the cost of a skeleton is its ability to be resurrected, so it's not completely clear that they are over-costed, as they're still Unbreakable, it's just that that doesn't mean as much with Steadfast everywhere these days, but the same is true of everyone else's Unbreakable units that have them.

muggins
30-12-2010, 18:02
The number of skeletons you can resurrect is very small, and you can't go over the starting size of the unit.

smithers
30-12-2010, 20:19
T.K realistically do blow hard. Their are many overpriced and useless things avialble to them being a 6th ed. A.B.

This being said however, (like all armies) if the general is intuititve and tactically smart, and took time to bulid his/her list to optimum performance, than T.K in reality aren't that bad.

Yes, "OH WOE IS ME" archers blow in combat, but that is something we all already know. How about a Icon Bearer with the Banner of Armor Pirecing, and the unit with the Flamming Banner/Undying Legion to make that unit of 50 bowmen smack 20-30 man blocks in the face (looks even to C.W)?
...



I would never use the armor piercing banner on mere skellies. Of course if it worked on ranged attacks it would be bloody mean on skellie archers (since they can shoot twice a turn) but it only works in CC sadly. Anyways, look at the points you are talking about; 50 expensive core models plus a naked character carrying an expensive banner.... all to take on 20-30 man blocks?!?! Your comment only demonstrates how uncompetitive our list is.

The only exceptions I'd make (meaning competitive units IMO) are:

Ushabti
Tomb King
Tomb Guard
Scorpions
SSC

Yeah, Bone Giant is cool but 220 points is way too expensive for how he performs. I've just never had him earn his points and a block of Ushabti so much better.

smithers
30-12-2010, 20:30
I think TK can be played relatively competitively, the big problem really is that most units are now paying far too much for Fear, as the effect of it has been greatly reduced, which is a good thing, but not for units that are still paying for the ability to auto-break their enemies.

It's important though to remember when number-crunching that skeletons can be brought back. So while the units can't auto-break after a turn or two anymore, they can still potentially outlast enemy infantry blocks, and if they do fail a fear test you get to hit on 3's with skeletons which is always fun!

A lot of the naysayers do seem to forget that part of the cost of a skeleton is its ability to be resurrected, so it's not completely clear that they are over-costed, as they're still Unbreakable, it's just that that doesn't mean as much with Steadfast everywhere these days, but the same is true of everyone else's Unbreakable units that have them.

Resurrecting seemed like a big deal in 7th, but when your opponent has throne of vines and is ressurecting 7 swordmasters who chew through your skellies like pistachios... well our resurrecting is much less impressive with the new lore of life.

In my experience resurrecting is nice to keep your units full strength during the first turn or two while you wait for combat, but once they get locked up they are likely to crumble so fast there's no way to keep up. In cases where the rez would make a real difference your opponent easily dispells. In cases where it wouldn't he lets it by. Rez has made hardly any impact in my 8th games. Would be a little different if I ran a HLP though.

Trains_Get_Robbed
30-12-2010, 21:08
Of course if it worked on ranged attacks it would be bloody mean on skellie archers (since they can shoot twice a turn) but it only works in CC sadly.

Yeah, Bone Giant is cool but 220 points is way too expensive for how he performs. I've just never had him earn his points and a block of Ushabti so much better.

Why wouldn't it work on ranged attacks? The rule that the banner gives you is Armor Piercing. Since when is Armor Piercing limited to just Close Combat attacks? If yor bone Giant is going up against for example: Trolls, then your using it wrong. Bone Giants should only go after Elite Infantry/Tough Infantry where it can utlize its stomps.

theunwantedbeing
30-12-2010, 22:48
Since when is Armor Piercing limited to just Close Combat attacks?

:rolleyes: somebody could do with reading the rules a little more.

Anywho, you need a BsB to get that banner on archers as it''s over 25pts.

Fear is handy for bone giants (when it works of course).
Hitting on a 3+ for unstoppable assault? Hell yeah!

smithers
30-12-2010, 23:18
Why wouldn't it work on ranged attacks? The rule that the banner gives you is Armor Piercing. Since when is Armor Piercing limited to just Close Combat attacks? If yor bone Giant is going up against for example: Trolls, then your using it wrong. Bone Giants should only go after Elite Infantry/Tough Infantry where it can utlize its stomps.

If you read the Armor Piercing rule, you will see the first sentence limits it to close combat. If the banner bestowed AP on the unit's weapons then it would be a different story (as explained later in the same rule) but when it's on the unit/model then it's CC only.

I think a lot of people are misplaying this because I see it on ranged units in a lot of lists.

As for Bone Giant, since his poor weapon skill will cause him to usually whiff attacks vs elite infantry, he'll often lose combat even with the stomps. Yeah, if you get him in a charge combined with a ranked unit he's going to do OK but half the times I've fielded him he just got shot up and never even got a charge off. Would be a great monster for 150-175 points, though I'd rather see him get some cool upgrades in the new book (shield, bow, ???)

Korraz
30-12-2010, 23:25
I would love to play against your resident tomb kings geniusses, because I have lots of problems, but incantations ain't one. Really. This so called "spamming" isn't really spamming. Yeah, sure, you can put quite an amount of spells out. But they don't scare me in the least. Really. Incantations simply aren't scary. Two catapults shooting twice can put out some damage, sure, but for how long? They are not 4 warmachines, they are two. Which makes the job for hunters quite easy. And they are probably the highest priority targets in the army. It's not like there are better targets for the cannons or spells, save for an appearing scorpion.
I'm not being sarcastic or snarky. I just can't see it. I've played with and against them and with two evenly skilled players...

Trains_Get_Robbed
31-12-2010, 00:52
somebody could do with reading the rules a little more."

Left my little BrB at the shop yesterday, just picked it up along with bunch a Brets (a steal ^.^). Upon further examination (aka looking at the special ruling), it gives the model the A.P special rule, and the rule states that the close combat attacks have it.

Eh, then that blows hard for my bud, he was planning on taking that banner khalida and a unit of 70 Bowmen in our next game! :D Can you say flamming, A.P and posioned arrows? That would have been sweet.

Korraz: I may not be a resident T.K genuis, but some of the charges and target proirty people use defies logic. True that against high WS troops B.G's tend to not hit, but so can not getting the charge off for them, and so can charging them into something like Cavlary or a Skaven Slave mosh pit. Its asenine and backward.

Throw him towards something like Temple Guard, Long Beards, Black Orcs, Excutioners, Swordsmen, Great Swords, Demonettes etc. . ., and he still can make a mess of things.

Regardless, they still need a new book.

Lilike
31-12-2010, 05:28
I see people bringing up units of 50 and 70 skeleton warriors, this is not doable in an TK army since the skeleton warrior units are capped to 40 dudes.

bluemage
31-12-2010, 15:55
Not being mean, but the only people defending TKs as being a competative army don't seem to play them. Also people are throwing out lots of ideas for what could be an awesome unit, but is ignoring some of the rules and these units are still overpriced rubbish. Spending 400+ points on a unit so that it can take on units that are ~150 points and claiming this is proof TKs are great. Well there's just something seriusly wrong with that logic.

Caitsidhe
31-12-2010, 16:26
I played Tomb Kings throughout 7th Edition. They were a weak army even then, which is part of the reason I was challenging myself with them. They only had two competitive builds, i.e. the poisoned archer build under Khalida and the monster chariot force under the other special character (rarely allowed). :) In 8th Edition, with the changes to Fear, they are useless many times over.

Caitsidhe
31-12-2010, 16:28
If you read the Armor Piercing rule, you will see the first sentence limits it to close combat. If the banner bestowed AP on the unit's weapons then it would be a different story (as explained later in the same rule) but when it's on the unit/model then it's CC only.

I think a lot of people are misplaying this because I see it on ranged units in a lot of lists.

It is in contention for a good reason. I suggest you call Games Workshop. You will find that they tell you it applies to ranged attacks.

theunwantedbeing
31-12-2010, 16:28
All this talk of "they're 100% worthless" isn't helpful at all.

Let's see some examples of why things don't work anymore (or at all) rather than just saying "such and such is rubbish because such and such is worthless".


It is in contention for a good reason. I suggest you call Games Workshop. You will find that they tell you it applies to ranged attacks.

That's not what the rules say. Models with armour piercing get it in close combat, not with shooting.
"Wounds caused in close combat by a model with this rule"
"If a model has a weapon with the armour piercing rule, only the attacks made or shots fired with the weapon are Armour Piercing"
Page 67 of the rulebook

GW hotline or not, what they say doesn't override what the rules say.
It's 110pts minimum to give the bowmen unit the armour piercing banner anyway, not worth it at all.

Caitsidhe
31-12-2010, 16:42
All this talk of "they're 100% worthless" isn't helpful at all.

Let's see some examples of why things don't work anymore (or at all) rather than just saying "such and such is rubbish because such and such is worthless".

Considering I am a person who played them on the competitive circuit, I feel qualified to talk about them. They are worthless until a new book comes out. That is the long and the short of it. The main thing they had going for them was Fear. 8th Edition has altered that rule. Let me outline a few of the problems with Tomb Kings:

1. No March. *It takes some of their limited list of spells going off just to try and simulate a March. This makes them move about half as fast as other armies. Even Vampire Counts can March by putting a vampire near their undead. Tomb Kings cannot do this.

2. Magic brings little to the table. Tomb Kings magic seems to have one job, i.e. try and offset the lack of March and other undead foibles. What difference does it make that they cannot miscast? They don't have any uber-spells. :) Their spells are all support for inferior troops.

3. Crumble. If they lose their High Priest they start to crumble just like Vampire Counts. The main difference being that a High Priest is glass fragile compared to a vampire which can be made somewhat survivable.

4. MORE crumble. Everything crumbles when they lose the fight. They will lose the fight. :) The fact that undead do not run is not an advantage. They tend to lose the fight by massive amounts and them crumble all the rest of their army away. Thus, you are forced to spend ever more and more points on huge blocks of ineffective troops.

5. Flammable. The best characters they have are all particularly vulnerable to fire which is rather easy access and a given in every opponent these days.

6. Expensive. Everything is expensive for what you get. You are still paying the PREMIUM on certain undead abilities (like Fear) because the book came out so long ago. While the value of these special abilities has gone down to almost nothing, the cost is still prorated as if it was devastating.

7. Slots. There are no good core troops. This is problematic because everything is in limited array. You are trapped buying subpar things unless you go for certain Lords or Special characters (expensive Lords and Characters).

8. Top Heavy. You really need Kings (or special characters) and not Tomb Princes. To be honest, you need the two special characters, period.

*There are a few others... I should take it out to ten for the sake of symmetry but it is early and I'm bored. Tomb Kings were challenging to play in 7th Edition. They "could" be competitive as an extreme finesse army but had no margin for error. In 8th Edition they are dead weight, pun intended.

Caitsidhe
31-12-2010, 16:48
That's not what the rules say. Models with armour piercing get it in close combat, not with shooting.

Half the people you talk to will disagree with you. It is a classic GW situation wherein the rules can be interpreted two different ways. Everyone believes it is OBVIOUS that their interpretation is the right one. That is why it needs to be in the new Faq.


GW hotline or not, what they say doesn't override what the rules say.
It's 110pts minimum to give the bowmen unit the armour piercing banner anyway, not worth it at all.

It only matters what your tournament organizer says and so far, every tournament I have attended since the new game has come out (including some big ones of note) have had the Razor Banner affecting ranged attacks. Most of those people DID call the GW hotline and apparently they do think what is said there matters, particularly when it is consistent (a rarity for the hotline). You can call it ten times in a row and get ten different people and you will still get the same answer. It is irrelevant to argue about it though, as it is likely to be in the next errata/faq. I, myself, being a WE player find it more than worth the points and I always use it.

theunwantedbeing
31-12-2010, 17:12
Considering I am a person who played them on the competitive circuit, I feel qualified to talk about them. They are worthless until a new book comes out. That is the long and the short of it. The main thing they had going for them was Fear. 8th Edition has altered that rule. Let me outline a few of the problems with Tomb Kings:

First off, playing them on the competitive circuit is irrelevant. You can't make them work, doesn't mean nobody else can. But it's nice to see your actually bothering to point out the flaws rather than use sweeping statements that are vague and unhelpful.


1. No March. *It takes some of their limited list of spells going off just to try and simulate a March. This makes them move about half as fast as other armies. Even Vampire Counts can March by putting a vampire near their undead. Tomb Kings cannot do this.

Speed is largely irrelevant now charge distances are that much greater.
Deploy better.


2. Magic brings little to the table. Tomb Kings magic seems to have one job, i.e. try and offset the lack of March and other undead foibles. What difference does it make that they cannot miscast? They don't have any uber-spells. :) Their spells are all support for inferior troops.

Take more character's, equip them less. You can have a high priest and a tomb king in 2k very easily. That's 4 spells right off the bat, requiring a minimum of 4 dispel dice to stop. (that's if the high priest rolls really horrifically badly for his power levels) Your looking at more like 6 or even 8 dice to stop them, before any other spells get thrown around, with average rolling. You don't use spells to move troops anymore, you use them to make them fight or shoot.


3. Crumble. If they lose their High Priest they start to crumble just like Vampire Counts. The main difference being that a High Priest is glass fragile compared to a vampire which can be made somewhat survivable.

Don't put him in the line of fire. Sure there's nothing you can do about Dwellers but that's an uber spell and is a problem for everyone. This has always been an issue and even Vampire players bitch about it despite having one of the most difficult to kill lords in the game.
I'm fine at keeping my saveless out in the open all the time mage safe, why aren't you?


4. MORE crumble. Everything crumbles when they lose the fight. They will lose the fight. :) The fact that undead do not run is not an advantage. They tend to lose the fight by massive amounts and them crumble all the rest of their army away. Thus, you are forced to spend ever more and more points on huge blocks of ineffective troops.
Everything crumbled when you lost the fight before. The point is you don't fight using the stuff that loses really easily. You don't use block troops in 8th for tomb kings, due to cost and general ineffectiveness.


5. Flammable. The best characters they have are all particularly vulnerable to fire which is rather easy access and a given in every opponent these days.
Take one of the many 2+ ward's vs flaming attacks. Doesn't save you all the time but they are cheap and they work.


6. Expensive. Everything is expensive for what you get. You are still paying the PREMIUM on certain undead abilities (like Fear) because the book came out so long ago. While the value of these special abilities has gone down to almost nothing, the cost is still prorated as if it was devastating.

Bit vague here.
Sure a skeleton with a spear and light armour is 10pts, that's really pricey.
The moral here?
Don't use them so much, and definitely don't pay for a giant block of them.


7. Slots. There are no good core troops. This is problematic because everything is in limited array. You are trapped buying subpar things unless you go for certain Lords or Special characters (expensive Lords and Characters).

Big deal, you buy archers anyway, or chariots. You don't spend your points on big blocks of skeleton spearmen or warriors as these are the ineffective choices.


8. Top Heavy. You really need Kings (or special characters) and not Tomb Princes. To be honest, you need the two special characters, period.

Doesn't stop you take a king and high priest at 2k, along with a couple of princes and a priest. The special character's are handy, but not manditory.

Haravikk
31-12-2010, 18:03
Speed is largely irrelevant now charge distances are that much greater.
Deploy better.
I'm not sure I fully agree with this; charge distances may be longer on average but even with the best deployment in the world you can still get roped into situations where you have to manoeuvre or slog your way to something, and the lack of marching is vicious. I'm a Dwarf player primarily and it's hard enough with them; people tend to forget that on average Tomb Kings are actually even slower than Dwarfs, as they are lumped with 4" movement while Dwarfs effectively have 6" all the time.
It's all well and good to say to deploy better, but if you get stuck against a bunch of flighty elves then it's not easy to get to grips them except on their terms rather than your own :P

Sorry, not wanting to niggle as I agree on all your other points, but I think in spite of charge distances movement can still be a much bigger problem than you're giving it credit.

Lilike
31-12-2010, 18:39
First off, playing them on the competitive circuit is irrelevant. You can't make them work, doesn't mean nobody else can. But it's nice to see your actually bothering to point out the flaws rather than use sweeping statements that are vague and unhelpful.



Speed is largely irrelevant now charge distances are that much greater.
Deploy better.



Take more character's, equip them less. You can have a high priest and a tomb king in 2k very easily. That's 4 spells right off the bat, requiring a minimum of 4 dispel dice to stop. (that's if the high priest rolls really horrifically badly for his power levels) Your looking at more like 6 or even 8 dice to stop them, before any other spells get thrown around, with average rolling. You don't use spells to move troops anymore, you use them to make them fight or shoot.



Don't put him in the line of fire. Sure there's nothing you can do about Dwellers but that's an uber spell and is a problem for everyone. This has always been an issue and even Vampire players bitch about it despite having one of the most difficult to kill lords in the game.
I'm fine at keeping my saveless out in the open all the time mage safe, why aren't you?


Everything crumbled when you lost the fight before. The point is you don't fight using the stuff that loses really easily. You don't use block troops in 8th for tomb kings, due to cost and general ineffectiveness.


Take one of the many 2+ ward's vs flaming attacks. Doesn't save you all the time but they are cheap and they work.



Bit vague here.
Sure a skeleton with a spear and light armour is 10pts, that's really pricey.
The moral here?
Don't use them so much, and definitely don't pay for a giant block of them.



Big deal, you buy archers anyway, or chariots. You don't spend your points on big blocks of skeleton spearmen or warriors as these are the ineffective choices.



Doesn't stop you take a king and high priest at 2k, along with a couple of princes and a priest. The special character's are handy, but not manditory.

So your general tips are, take a lot of lord level characters and use a lot of archers as core? I believe that this is generally how most people play tomb kings as is.

I am not sure how you can say that speed is irrelevant, speed allows you to realign your forces depending on how the battle progresses, it also allows you to keep the mage in your example safe since it (or it's unit) can move away from danger much easier.

Also not sure what you mean about not using block troops with TK in 8:th edition? What would the option be, using only constructs?

Caitsidhe
31-12-2010, 19:05
I never said I didn't make them work in 7th Edition. That was my challenge, to make a fair showing with Tomb Kings. I just know how hard they were do that with in 7th Edition. I also know it is 10x harder now. :D However... more power to you... champions of 8th Edition Tomb Kings. Let's see you put your money where mouth is and come play at tournaments.

Capardio
31-12-2010, 19:55
In my experience, the only way you can play tomb kings is deploy as far back as possible, go uber heavy on magic and shooting and stay out of combat for as long as possible. Magic can be instoppable; take a casket and a tk with wizard hat and more liche priests. Take 2 Catapults and lots of Archers. You WILL get alot of incantations off, though they may do little, and things will go good as long as you can stay out of combat. However, when you get in combat things go horribly wrong. You can aswell put nothing in the way of a close combat army as tomb kings.
My last game was against WOC, I was doing pretty well in the beginning. I was being flanked by two chaos knight units, but i had 2 chariot units standing by to counterassault. I thinned out the chaos knights to about 3 knights per unit with shooting, then assaulted with my chariots, one of the units including a prince. I had to do it, else i would be assaulted next turn. Both units got horribly crushed without doing any damage, including the prince.
Thats absolute ****, as the chariots are ment to be dedicated assault units in the TK book. Same for Tomb Guard, one of the most durable units. They barely held themselves against standard chaos warriors, even though they had two tomb kings with them.
That game ended in a draw, only because the game ended right before he was able to steamroll through my entire army.
And. I was outnumbered 2:1. Against expensive warriors of chaos. Who kill tomb kings a thousand times in close combat. Horribly imba.
The only way to play TK is to stay back as long as possible and shoot missiles and cast magic. However, thats horribly boring. Thats the reason my TK are now collecting dust till the book comes out.

Caitsidhe
31-12-2010, 20:11
The only way to play TK is to stay back as long as possible and shoot missiles and cast magic. However, thats horribly boring. Thats the reason my TK are now collecting dust till the book comes out.

Pretty much the same. The only competitive list I found was Khalida (special character) running with a ridiculous 40 man unit in two rows of 20 sitting on a hill (assuming one was available) so both rows could shoot. I would put Khalida and a BSB in the center and a Lich Priest at either end. Two Screaming Skull Catapults would be behind us at the top of the hill. below the hill would be a tricked out chariot unit with the Mirage banner and a unit of constructs would be at the bottom of the hill on either flank. The Tomb Scorpions would, of course, come in later from below on the opponent's side. All archers were upgraded by Khalida to be poison. Khalida's one unstoppable spell would allow the mega unit to fire twice a turn when targets were in range and be used on the Screaming Skull catapult when they were not.

Eh. This list was a one trick pony and the ONLY one outside of chariot spam with the other special character to even have a snowball's chance in hell. It was a modified gun line. I was very good at dropping the guess weapons on Hydra and the like (or high armor targets). The mega poison unit could drop one Stegadon a turn without fail. :D I loved getting Lizardmen opponents who spammed Stegadons. It was boring to play. This list is still viable under 8th Edition, although you have even less chance of it working since people cross the board so much faster and are not slowed down by terrain. All in all, Tomb Kings are just dead until their new book is out.

Trains_Get_Robbed
31-12-2010, 21:14
MY ADVICE IS TAKE SESEHMET AND DESTROY ALL IN YOUR %*&^ING PATH!!!

On, a serious note. Yes, T.K are bad we have established this. However, in what areas is the army bad?

Core troops blow, their movement is stiflied. After this, I would say the rest can be argued.

If T.K had their base Skeletons either upped in stats, or cost reduced, troop caps removed, and Crumble either reduced or gotten rid of, most people would cease to complain. Really, look at their Special and Rare troop choices, they are great.

SO I guess what I'm insuinading here is, use your strength's to your advantage and minimize your weakness, like all players try to do with all armies.

Caitsidhe
31-12-2010, 21:23
SO I guess what I'm insuinading here is, use your strength's to your advantage and minimize your weakness, like all players try to do with all armies.

Please name those strengths? Remember that a certain percentage MUST be Core. :D To mitigate the problem of Core, which you yourself admit sucks beyond belief, requires enough good to overcome the bad. Right now there just isn't enough good in Tomb Kings to even balance the bad much less overcome it. What follows are the only strengths of Tomb Kings:

1. Archers always hit on a 5 or 6. The value of this is debatable in the new system wherein people cross the board at lightning speed (if they aren't Tomb Kings). Moreover, many of the actual archery types of units already are good enough that they often hit on a 5 or 6 with bad conditions now.

2. No miscast. Again, lacking any actual decent magical spells, this benefit is dubious at best.

That's it. There are no other advantags to Tomb Kings. Everything else is a negative, period. :)

sulla
31-12-2010, 22:36
I'm not sure I fully agree with this; charge distances may be longer on average but even with the best deployment in the world you can still get roped into situations where you have to manoeuvre or slog your way to something, and the lack of marching is vicious. I'm a Dwarf player primarily and it's hard enough with them; people tend to forget that on average Tomb Kings are actually even slower than Dwarfs, as they are lumped with 4" movement while Dwarfs effectively have 6" all the time.
It's all well and good to say to deploy better, but if you get stuck against a bunch of flighty elves then it's not easy to get to grips them except on their terms rather than your own :P

.In 7th edition I found TK to be the fastest army when they wanted to be due to 'endless spamming of movement spells. I haven't played them in this edition, but I imagine that would be much the same now.

Whether they can do anything when they get there is the question with 2 ranks fighting and step up, but I doubt they'll have any trouble getting where they want to be.

theunwantedbeing
31-12-2010, 22:40
2 high priests, 4 spells at power level 3d6 all 4 times.
Or in powerdice terms, 12 dice, every single phase.
And you can use your dice regardless of the roll on bound items and such.

Hardly "poor" magic.
Especially given you can make things shoot twice, fight twice (suddenly a big block of skeletons isn't so rubbish afterall) or just re-raise a bunch of dead model (2d6 pick the highest for skeletons).

No miscasts is what the advantage was in 7th ed. Not 8th ed, get with the times :P

Hitting on a 5+ all the time usually means your free to move and shoot with them, also has the added benefit of not worrying about terrain as it doesn't impede your shooting at all. Skirmisher's at long range in a wood between you and another unit? 5+ to hit, you get to ignore the -5 modifer.

Ushabti, 3st6 attacks each and a st6 stomp from anyone in base contact.
3 wide and 2 deep might be quite a pricey unit, but they still appear in other armies and all those st6 attacks really take their toll on the enemy.

Scorpions are still awesome, getting a stomp as well as swiftstride so they do more damage than they used to. Still good for picking off character's.

Carrion, despite not getting to march are still handy, they're good fo dealing with lighter enemies and generally getting in the way. 72pts a unit and you can easily take 3 of those, in addition to multiple scorpions and that big ushabti unit. A bonus for 8th ed.
2 attacks and wounds each mean's they're good for taking down war machine crews, plus t4 for durability.

Following the trend. Catapults, cheap enough, skulls of the foe is handy on unit's not in range of the general and/or Bsb as the modifer is very handy. Two is generally a must.
Bone giants are good as well, 3+ saves staves off most low powered shooting, and he hits hard enough as well as getting thunderstomp to deal lots of damage to enemies.
5 attacks mean's he's effectively a dragon in combat as well. Only in1 but he still goes before great weapon armed troops.

The TK list is by no means worthless.

Caitsidhe
31-12-2010, 22:53
The TK list is by no means worthless.

I won't pick apart your claims, although I could. Instead, I'm going to let you SHOW ME. Let's pick an event and make arrangements to be there. I'll come with my Wood Elves. You come with Tomb Kings. You can put your money where your mouth is... and PROVE me wrong. I will gladly come back here and sing your praises (and that of the Tomb Kings). What's the next big event within your range?

theunwantedbeing
31-12-2010, 23:04
Your in texas, I'm in the UK.
We're not going to get to face each other's armies.

In anycase, saying you can pick apart my claims and actually picking them apart are two entirely seperate things. If anything, saying you can and not doing is proof that you can't pick them apart.

NecronBob
31-12-2010, 23:57
Your in texas, I'm in the UK.
We're not going to get to face each other's armies.

In anycase, saying you can pick apart my claims and actually picking them apart are two entirely seperate things. If anything, saying you can and not doing is proof that you can't pick them apart.

You seem to be confident in the army. Could you put together a list that you think would be competitive? I'd love to see one, and it'd give a baseline to see what you are talking about.

BlackVomit
01-01-2011, 11:39
To add another couple of things to the list:

1) Steadfast & Stubborn do not work with the Unstable rule. This & the fact that skeletons are maxed out to 40 is one of the reasons that Tomb Kings MUST avoid combat at all costs. Even being overpriced as they are a big (60+) unit of Skellies would be Steadfast most of the time so if you suffer 10/15 wounds in combat, you don't take another 10/15 from combat result.

Sure, Tomb King can be given the Scorpion Armour to negate this somewhat, but he can't be everywhere and you need your TK to generate some combat result. Also, if you've suffered 15 wounds out of 40, then you're still survivable. But if you add the combat res to that say 25 wounds out of 40 skellies, there is no way you're going to boost them back up to 40, no matter how good your magic phase is.

2) 25 Tomb Guard maximum? Seriously.. these guys are good, but they're not that good.

3) The 8th edition army list design hurts TK more than it helps it. With the Casket now taking points from the Lord/Hero slot instead of the Rare, fielding the casket means that you're one character short.

4) Vampire counts can stand & shoot (Banshee) whilst a unit of 40 Bowmen being charged can't. For some reason, GW decided to leave the restriction in the TK army book, even though it was removed from the Unstable rule.

Korraz
01-01-2011, 12:14
2 high priests, 4 spells at power level 3d6 all 4 times.
Or in powerdice terms, 12 dice, every single phase.
And you can use your dice regardless of the roll on bound items and such.

Hardly "poor" magic.
Especially given you can make things shoot twice, fight twice (suddenly a big block of skeletons isn't so rubbish afterall) or just re-raise a bunch of dead model (2d6 pick the highest for skeletons).

Spells that nobody gives a **** about. They are predictable as hell. I can tell exactly what is when going to be cast. And even then, that one or two spells are hardly scary.
Wow, the catapult shot twice. Great. Woah. It's going to die anyway.

Do you notice something? Everything that is "good" is special or rare. But you HAVE to blow points on core, which is abysmal. And then what? The target priority is just so god damn obvious. I can ignore your troops entirely and concentrate every bit shooting on your ushabti, giants and catapults. My militia will mop the floor with the skeletons.

Haravikk
01-01-2011, 12:50
Wow, the catapult shot twice. Great.
Stone throwers are very good in 8th, so having them firing twice a turn is not bad at all. Skeleton Archers are also pretty nasty, as always hitting on 5+ is not bad at all, as your typical Ballistic Skill 3 archer will hit on 5's a lot of the time anyway, but skeletons can just flat out ignore whether an enemy is in a forest or building, or are skirmishers, or charging, etc. etc. Firing twice a turn they can do a fair bit of damage to anything they like, where other armies have to make the decision of whether to fire at an important target, or one they can hit the easiest.
Under 8th you get two ranks of shooting from them, with optional volley fire, do that twice a turn and it's nothing to scoff at all. If skeletons are so bad now then you probably don't want to invest any extra points in them so just field archers and use them as weak combat troops when shooting targets get scarce, and have them fire out two rounds of attacks once there, which will be better than equipping them with spears.

Shoot the crap out of enemy units, mangle them with heavy hitters (Ushabti, giants, tomb guard) and pin them with bowmen in combat if needed. The incantation can also be used to turn an undead charge into something very vicious indeed, as that free round of combat can be used to strike first which you normally wouldn't get to do; two rounds of combat from a unit of Ushabti isn't something to scoff at.

So I don't think you should underestimate the incantations at all. We only have one TK player that I know of nearby, but he gets some pretty good use out of his incantations which can make the army very punishing indeed.

Caitsidhe
01-01-2011, 16:28
Your in texas, I'm in the UK.
We're not going to get to face each other's armies.

That would be very convenient for you, except that we can. Through the wonders of modern technology we can play each other even with the pond between us. Let's set the point level and so on. Then we can post our lists for all to see here. We can get a nice audience too. Then turn by turn you can demonstrate how wrong I am. Again... let's see your money where your mouth is... or are you all talk? I'm giving you the chance to put this issue to bed and put me in my place for all to see. You should jump at this chance. SHOW US.

theunwantedbeing
01-01-2011, 16:43
Okay, set the points level then.
And any other rules you wish us to follow (better we play on your terms, not mine) and I'll take you up on that challenge.

Caitsidhe
01-01-2011, 16:48
Okay, set the points level then.
And any other rules you wish us to follow (better we play on your terms, not mine) and I'll take you up on that challenge.

Since I am the one arguing you have the weaker (uncompetitive) army it is only fair that we select terms that give you a fighting chance. You claim you don't need special characters (I think you do to even have a snowballs chance in hell). We will play strict 8th Edition rules, abiding by all errata and faq published on their site as of the day we begin. I would suggest you select a higher point level because Tomb Kings get worse as the points drop, but I will leave that to you. I don't care what scenario we play. I don't care what point level we play, although I suggest not going above Ard Boyz level since resolving games online is slower than hell. Please let me know which software engine you are using for online play so I can make sure it is the same as mine (and if not I can familiarize myself with yours). We can start a thread with a turn by turn (if they allow that on Warseer). If not, they do allow it on Asrai.org ...we can get all this up to date and either require each other to post lists up front (we can roll off for order) or we can select an non-partisan 3rd party to whom we private message our lists to by a given date.

*If you haven't done this before, this link will take you to very useful instructions and a likely good place for us to play:

http://www.asrai.org/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=12201

The bearded one
02-01-2011, 00:35
Ooooh, smackdown!

Mmhmm.. I'm not that sure in this case actually. Wood elves against tomb kings. If it were pretty much any army ( except OK and bretts ) I'd say it's heavily in that army's favour but wood elves have also had a horrendous nerfing this edition so to be honest I find WE vs TK to be a pretty equal match.

Justy
02-01-2011, 01:09
Speed is largely irrelevant now charge distances are that much greater.


Speed was relevant on my last tournament 2999pt game where the High elf killed a catapult + casket on his turn1, and I managed to get into combat by my turn4 (and good luck charging stand&shoot seaguards.)

vinny t
02-01-2011, 03:09
As a TK player who loves his army, and enjoyed quite some success with it in 7th ed (won our annual tournament), I'm just gonna offer my opinion on why TK are honestly quite poor.

First, the magic issue. Many people argue that TK can simply power through whatever spells they desire due to their incantations. This is indeed true, but often underwhelming. Many is the time that a TK player really needs one incantation to go through, and if an opponent can recognize that, it is a simple matter to shut it down, as the limited range on incantations make it difficult to spam successfully.

Now, a spell-by-spell analysis of TK magic:
Incantation of Smiting- While an amazing spell in 7th, as it allowed the catapult to shoot twice, it is now not quite as good. Now that catapults allow armour saves, they have lost much of their power, and so has the spell. Using it for the one round of attacks, I have found to be pretty much useless in almost every scenario. Using it to shoot bows seems like a poor choice when compared to the catapults
Incantation of Raising- Wonderful, but you dont get enough guys back. I mean come on, a max of 6 skeletons/Tomb guard? Our units are already small, lets not compound the problem
Incantation of d6 S4 hits- utterly worthless
Incantation of moving- The best one out there. In 7th, I used it to allow sweet multi-charges that crushed oponents one unit at a time. However, as US 5 no longer negates ranks, and 2 ranks being needed, this spell is now far worse. Many of our flanking units now simply supply free CR to our opponents. Still the best spell, but our units just arent powerful enough to benefit from its potential.

So, TK magic gets a 6.5/10, instead the 8/10 that it was last edition.
The rulebook lores are now far superior.

Lord/Hero Slots

Tomb King/ Prince- Pretty much teh same as last ed, only now far squishier. Now that everyone gets to attack back, the lack of armour on these guys kills them. Their incantation ability is weak, and their combat ability is mediocre. I just dont like them much anymore

High Liche Priest/Liche Priest- Necessary. They can ensure that your spels get through, but the issue is that the spells lost much of their power. Still great, though, and never leave teh tomb without 'em.

Casket of Souls- I love it. I just find all of its abilities useful, and also forces your enemy to conserve dispel dice, as the threat of what it could do is very very high.

Icon Bearer-sucks

Core Units
Skeletons- Overpriced by about 3-4 points. They used to be good to hold up units, but now they just die faster and easier. Bow armed skeletons are also terrible. Big blocks can absord the few casualties they inflict, and with no save they die in droves to a stiff breeze. I have seen my beloved 25 man blocks die to 5 marauder horsemen of Khorne with Flails. They simply can't hold up.

Tomb Swarms- I love them for holding up war machines. 2 bases is cheap, and small, and can stop a warmachine for a game. If they kill it, bonus!

Chariots- Wonderful in 7th, too weak to do anything in 8th. They win combat by killing off enough people so that they aren't killed by the return attacks. This is now moot in 8th, and the return attacks spell the end of my poor chariots. They also lose their flanking ability, and just die so, so quickly.

Special Slots:
Tomb Guard- The toughest infantry we have, and it still dies to a slightly stiffer breeze. T4 and a 5+ save just don't cut it. They simply cant survive. Nnot even with the banner of the undying legion. A max unit size of 25 just cripples them even more.

Ushabti- actually got better in 8th! Now their stomp is great, and the are one of the few units that I think are competitive. However, low armour save and high points cost does cripple them to some degree, but I still love them

Tomb Scorpion- Essntially unchanged, but now can't snipe characters as well, which makes it only really useful for killing warmachines and wizards. Still worth taking 3, and they won't let you down.

Rare:
Bone Giant- They are the most durable thing we have, and I enjoyed running Apple and Cobbler, my 2 big thugs. Again, they were best used holding up units of infantry for a cavalry flank charge in th, and cannot truly do this in 8th. One of my favorite units in teh book, and I still find them fairly useful.

Catapult
People love it, I'm not sold. While stone throwers are a lot more accurate, I find that S4 rarely kills enough models to be as big of a threat. The panic is nice, but with the ubiquitous BSB in every frickin army giving re-rolls, it has been smacked with the nerf-hammer. Still useful, but no longer great.


So, there is my unit by unit run-down of TK this edition, and why Tomb kings are no longer competitive, a fact that breaks my heart.



Oh, and to those who find Khalida lists to be uber-powerful, I disagree. You are putting a lot of faith in a lot of S3 shooting. When I played this list with my WoC, it couldnt kill enough warriors to prevent teh slaughter once I reached my opponents lines. Playing that list is like playing a gunline. Once the opponent is in combat, you lose. The only way for a pure gunline to win is to wipe the enemy out with shooting. Tomb Kings simply cannot pull this off.

The bearded one
02-01-2011, 05:06
Catapult
People love it, I'm not sold. While stone throwers are a lot more accurate, I find that S4 rarely kills enough models to be as big of a threat.

I thought it was/is strenght 5? Was it errata'd or was my assumption simply wrong throughout the past edition?

w3rm
02-01-2011, 05:56
Fight Fight Fight!!!

BlackVomit
02-01-2011, 10:49
I thought it was/is strenght 5? Was it errata'd or was my assumption simply wrong throughout the past edition?

AFAIK it is Strength 9 under the hole & Strength 3 for the rest.

Caitsidhe
02-01-2011, 15:45
Ooooh, smackdown!

Mmhmm.. I'm not that sure in this case actually. Wood elves against tomb kings. If it were pretty much any army ( except OK and bretts ) I'd say it's heavily in that army's favour but wood elves have also had a horrendous nerfing this edition so to be honest I find WE vs TK to be a pretty equal match.

It suffices to say that even playing Wood Elves, I have no fear whatsoever of Tomb Kings. :) I know them front and back. They were my competition army before. I know what they can do and what they can't do. While I agree the Wood Elves definitely lost a great deal, they remain competitive in the right proportions and with some finesse. Tomb Kings no longer remains remotely competitive. Our game should demonstrate that. Getting massacred by Wood Elves should make it abundantly clear.

Esco Thomson
02-01-2011, 16:39
This thing started out well enough, and spiraled into something a bit silly...

The thing with 8th edition, terrain, and scenarios, in my opinion really leveled the playing field out amongst armies. I think any army can be effective, given the right build, and the right player behind it.

I have played TK for ages, and they will always hold a soft spot in my heart. I don't think it is up for debate that they are in need of some updating, and that 90% of the book is pointed a bit high in comparison to more recent productions.

That being said, it is insanely arrogant to write them off as an "auto win" or whatever verbiage you choose to denote that they can not win.

TK have always been an army which required a bit of finesse and skill to use properly, points furthered by the fact that in most games you are down in model count simply due to pricing issues.

They still possess two "competitive" builds in my opinion, granted not as flexible in terms of other armies, but by no means out of it either.

Having access to double firing flaming stone throwers is not a bad thing. Nor is fast cavalry on the only army with units of Chariots. Someone else already pointed out the fact that hitting on 5's is a solid thing as well with all the cover about. The magic, while not as blunt as the BRB Lores, does have its uses.

Also with the addition of the BRB Common Items, TK players are able to fill some much needed gaps in a pretty thin item selection.

In terms of raw power, will I go out and say they are on the same level as DE, LZ, SKV, or the likes, no. I will however say that if you write them off as an auto win, you are simply playing bad TK players.

theunwantedbeing
02-01-2011, 16:50
It suffices to say that even playing Wood Elves, I have no fear whatsoever of Tomb Kings. :) I know them front and back. They were my competition army before. I know what they can do and what they can't do. While I agree the Wood Elves definitely lost a great deal, they remain competitive in the right proportions and with some finesse. Tomb Kings no longer remains remotely competitive. Our game should demonstrate that. Getting massacred by Wood Elves should make it abundantly clear.

I don't belive wood elves have really suffered in 8th ed.
Given they can now outshoot practically everyone, dryads fight before damned near everything, treekin got more nails, as have treemen.
Wood elves are right up there with the big boys now in 8th ed as far as I'm concerned.

In anycase, pick a points value.

I'll build a Tomb Kings list to that level and you can make the board and pick a scenario (or it can be randomly determined).
Better to play on terms that aren't going to benefit me in any way, I can't prove an army is any good by winning a game I had the upper hand in afterall, plus it'll remove any excuse of "oh you had an advantage" in the event I do win.

Caitsidhe
02-01-2011, 17:15
I don't belive wood elves have really suffered in 8th ed. Given they can now outshoot practically everyone, dryads fight before damned near everything, treekin got more nails, as have treemen.
Wood elves are right up there with the big boys now in 8th ed as far as I'm concerned.

I agree. I don't think they suffered to become uncompetitive. Their play style simply had to change to become a more rounded army.


In anycase, pick a points value.

Ok? I was going to leave that to you as you are the army for whom it is most important. If you are going to leave it to me I will select 3000pts to give you the most option (given your prices). This is also the Ard Boyz point level and so the one at which many tournaments gear for.


I'll build a Tomb Kings list to that level and you can make the board and pick a scenario (or it can be randomly determined).

Hrm. Anyone reading this use the stuff for online play and willing to create the map for us and act as the impartial overseer? If not I will randomly select one of the maps already available through the links I showed you. I would rather the third party generate (or pick) the scenario, but if I have to pick it, I would go with the basic scenario, no bells and whistles. There is something straightforward about two armies facing each other from the long sides with the 12" deployment and kill or be killed.


Better to play on terms that aren't going to benefit me in any way, I can't prove an army is any good by winning a game I had the upper hand in afterall, plus it'll remove any excuse of "oh you had an advantage" in the event I do win.

I would never comment on "advantage" in any event. If it hasn't been made abundantly clear in my posts, I don't consider good or bad luck (or advantage) to be relevant. There are only winners and losers. The winners earned their accolades. The losers earned their pit. Excuses are for the weak. We are trying to prove whether or not Tomb Kings are competitive. Fair or unfair, even match ups are rare. One side or another always has advantages (which is why it is moot to worry about them). However, if it is your wish we will do our best to make sure there are no advantages in your favor. I'm not sure what you would consider and advantage though. Short of putting you on one side of a massive swamp and series of rivers between us to prevent me from getting to you physically, there isn't a lot of setup options that can give you and advantage.

The bearded one
02-01-2011, 19:37
I don't belive wood elves have really suffered in 8th ed.
Given they can now outshoot practically everyone,
Hardly. My dwarfs outshoot them every day of the week. Empire can bring up a similar shooting phase, skaven too. High elf and dark elf shooting phases can be quite strong although to a lesser degree than the former. I think the wood elf shooting phase is commonly overestimated. They're still str3 arrows most of the time.


dryads fight before damned near everything,
This has lingered from 7th edition, the thought that striking first makes the unit better. It is simply not true except in rare circumstances. Practically always step-up spits high initiative in the face.


treekin got more nails, as have treemen.
All monstrous things did. Regardless, they're probably amongst the best things the wood elves still have.


Wood elves are right up there with the big boys now in 8th ed as far as I'm concerned.
As far as I'm concerned they're not.

Steadfast kicked wood elves in the ass. Dryads and wardancers will hardly kill a unit anymore unless they wipe it out.

Harwammer
02-01-2011, 19:40
A TK vs WE grudge match?

This is awesome! Like that time when the cripple and the overweight kid with asthma at school got into a fight!

Fight Fight Fight!!!

Caitsidhe
03-01-2011, 01:20
A TK vs WE grudge match? This is awesome! Like that time when the cripple and the overweight kid with asthma at school got into a fight!

Heh. I don't actually believe the WE are top tier (middle of the road at best) but I believe they are still competitive. It isn't a grudge match. It is a test. The proof will be in the pudding. I've put them up against most armies in 8th Edition and they have done just fine.

w3rm
03-01-2011, 01:31
As much as I hate to say it, I think theunwantedbeing is going down, I just dont think the tombkings are gonna be able to deal with the woodies speed, high amount of attacks. Tomb Kings with steadfast arenet gonna last vs buffed dryad units and catapults arent going to kill tons of elves(Long thin blocks rather then wide easy targets.(

I wish both the players the best of luck however!

Trains_Get_Robbed
03-01-2011, 07:22
FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT!!!

Oh, this is going to be sweet!!!

If you want a third party organizer, I would look to Malorian or someone that does Battle Reports and is a 'seasoned' vet on this site.

Frankly, I find W.E to be weak.

They won't outshoot any shooty armies worth their salt because for W.E to be decent, that can't focus all their attention on shooting, a good portion has to go into actual combat blocks noew (Treekin, E.G, Treeman). Besides, what does S3 shooting do to anyone? If it was really that good, or worth anything, you would see Empire and High ELf Archer spam -obviously you don't.

W3rm: I disagree with you brohandas. I'm definitely feeling the T.K here, just depends on tactics each army brings. Ubshuati and Bone Giants, will match the elves essntially match for match with Treekin and Treeman. Scorpions and chariot can quickly take care of that '1-3 turn' bubble/window of shooting that the W.E desperatley rely on to widdle down or mis/re-direct large, cumbersome units (that T.K really don't have here to be honset.

This isn't to mention the biggest game changer of all however though. The magic phase. The magic phase will be key. At a first qucik glance, one would think that the W.E would have the upper hand with the Lore of Life. However, in reality, T.K has this on lock down as they have acess to more dispelling, more incantation and even more BrB spells.

If looking at it right now: (1-5)

Movement phase: W.E 5 T.K 3 (move spamming can't make up for the inability to march against a skirmishing army)

Magic: W.E 2 T.K 4 (elves have little in the form of offensive magic and even less in the form of defensive; imo what they need)

Shooting: W.E 3 T.K 3 (elves have -1 A.P for short range, no penalties and BS 4. Though, no acess to templates [S.S.C] and T.K also cost less, and hit always on 5's)

Combat: W.E 2 T.K 2 (depends who gets charged)

Prediciton:

Unwantedbeing takes it, but barley. He does so by 200 V.Ps in Battleline Scenario.

Those are just my thoughts, and a quick run down of what I see as advantgeous for both armies.

P.S: Please make this a spectacle! I would love to watch this, seeing a battle of fates is never better than on Warseeerrrrrrrrr.

The bearded one
03-01-2011, 11:05
How funny would it be if like all the woods are wildwoods and the wood elves either die in them or get panicked off the board while the tomb king liche guy dies to them and the army crumbles? xD

Haravikk
03-01-2011, 12:47
This "proving match" is pointless; Warhammer is fundamentally too unpredictable for a single game to prove either way, and even if you play multiple games it could just end up proving that one person chose a poor list to play all the games with.

All of us have a basic knowledge of maths, so discussion should be plenty as we can work out how likely one thing from one army is to beat something from another, and how army-level tactics can stack up to make an army more competitive.

arthurfallz
03-01-2011, 14:01
I'm not necessarily eager to see a fight, but the chance to see two players demonstrate their opinions with some actual tactics and rolls is much more compelling than "yes/no" discussions. I think both players, if the match happens, can demonstrate their ideas and (once posted) it will serve as a nice demo of what's right and what's wrong with the Tomb Kings.

As an aside, my friends are holding a match with a Tomb Kings army, I will get them to report the results to me to post up as well.

Caitsidhe
03-01-2011, 14:15
This "proving match" is pointless; Warhammer is fundamentally too unpredictable for a single game to prove either way, and even if you play multiple games it could just end up proving that one person chose a poor list to play all the games with.

This is where we disagree. I don't find Warhammer unpredictable at all. Win/Loss records can show patterns as well. If it were unpredictable, nobody would have a trending win or loss record.


All of us have a basic knowledge of maths, so discussion should be plenty as we can work out how likely one thing from one army is to beat something from another, and how army-level tactics can stack up to make an army more competitive.

The proof is always in the pudding.

bluemage
03-01-2011, 14:17
As bad as I feel the TK army has become, I feel that WE are still a good matchup for them. I think that TK will win this fight if Unwanted brings a Khilda gunline backed up with some chariots and scorpions.

theunwantedbeing
03-01-2011, 14:18
I'm not going to be taking any special character's.
So a Khalida gunline is out of the question.

It's 3k and I'm still pondering what exactly I should put in this list, 3k gives a lot of flexibility afterall.

Caitsidhe
03-01-2011, 14:30
I'm not necessarily eager to see a fight, but the chance to see two players demonstrate their opinions with some actual tactics and rolls is much more compelling than "yes/no" discussions. I think both players, if the match happens, can demonstrate their ideas and (once posted) it will serve as a nice demo of what's right and what's wrong with the Tomb Kings.

I agree. The only value in the exercise is what it demonstrates.


As an aside, my friends are holding a match with a Tomb Kings army, I will get them to report the results to me to post up as well.

I appreciate this as well. I played Tomb Kings a fair number of times prior to my switch to WE in 8th Edition. I should go back and see if I kept my battle reports.

Caitsidhe
03-01-2011, 14:45
I'm not going to be taking any special character's.
So a Khalida gunline is out of the question.

It's 3k and I'm still pondering what exactly I should put in this list, 3k gives a lot of flexibility afterall.

Are you sure? You should take the best list you can. In all honesty, Khalida is your best chance at making a go of this. She is the only semi-functional competitive list that remains in 8th Edition. Of course, if you aim to prove they are fully functional regardless, power to you. The strength of Tomb Kings has always been, even in 7th Edition, vested in its special characters. Heh. Of course the whole exercise might be moot now that the Tomb Kings NEW book is not far away. Chances are it will be out before we finish our game.

Enigmatik1
03-01-2011, 17:23
Wow. I take a sabbatical from Warhammer (and Warseer) and this is what I miss...

We all know 8th Edition didn't do Tomb Kings any favors as an army. I'm with bluemage on this one. I think WE are a good match up for us. T3 and low armor saves? One thing that 8E didn't take from us...Chariots still work against Elves!

smithers
04-01-2011, 08:31
I fully agree that TK are underpowered, and what bothers me more is that there are so few competitive units in the armylist, which even at the beginning wasn't very diverse.

However, I think TK have a very good chance of beating WE!

A few things in this thread I totally disagree with, such as TK get weaker at higher points. I think just the opposite is true, mainly because TK magic is limited by the scaling character allowance rather than the unscaling winds of magic. I also disagree that Khalida is necessary to win. I've actually won my last 4 games with TK (ogres, vamps, vamps, lizards) and have never fielded a special char. I do admit I had some good luck in those games, esp. vs. the nasty lizard list which would have creamed my army 9 out of 10 times I am sure.

If I were facing WE in a grudge match at 3000 pts I'd take something like the list below. In real life I'd never field 4 catapults, but if the gauntlet were thrown down like this I'd do it just to be mean! List also has an overwhelming magic phase (not close to maxxed though) and 2 dispels. Biggest challenge would be keeping Ushabti safe for a turn before combat. If WE list was shooty they'd be deployed way back and I'd just rain hell down and force opponent to approach. Otherwise I'd be getting them into combat ASAP with chariot support while still raining down hell with the rest of the army.

Another thing I disagree with in this thread is the comment that WE have no magic defense. That one item that allows dispels to be rerolled is probably the best defense in the game vs. TK magic, since it means 1 die incantations can be dispelled with 1 pretty reliably whereas any other army tries this and loses concentration for the round frequently.

Anyways, I'd bring something like this:

3000 Pts - Tomb Kings Roster - BURN THE FORESTS!

Tomb King (1#, 181 pts)
1 Tomb King, 181 pts (General; Great Weapon)
1 Dragonbane Gem

Tomb King (1#, 276 pts)
1 Tomb King, 276 pts (Great Weapon)
1 Wizarding Hat

Liche High Priest (1#, 290 pts)
1 Liche High Priest, 290 pts (Hierophant)
1 Enkhil's Kanopi (bound for dispelling RIPs)
1 Collar of Shapesh (equiv 4+ ward, better vs. some nosaves)

Liche Priest (1#, 165 pts)
1 Liche Priest, 165 pts
1 Dispel Scroll
1 Brooch of the Great Desert (2nd dispel scroll equiv)

Skeleton Warriors (37#, 321 pts)
37 Skeleton Warriors, (Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std; Hand Weapon; Bow; Undead)
1 Banner of Eternal Flame

Skeleton Warriors (20#, 175 pts)
20 Skeleton Warriors, (Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std; Hand Weapon; Bow; Undead) - (Ready to deploy into watchtower)

Tomb Scorpion (1#, 85 pts)
1 Tomb Scorpion, 85 pts (Killing Blow; Magic Resistance (1); Poisoned Attacks; Undead)

Tomb Scorpion (1#, 85 pts)
1 Tomb Scorpion, 85 pts (Killing Blow; Magic Resistance (1); Poisoned Attacks; Undead)

War Engines (4#, 110 pts)
1 Screaming Skull Catapult, 110 pts (Skulls of the Foe; Stone Thrower; Undead)
3 Crew (Hand Weapon)

War Engines (4#, 90 pts)
1 Screaming Skull Catapult, 90 pts (Stone Thrower; Undead)
3 Crew (Hand Weapon)

War Engines (4#, 90 pts)
1 Screaming Skull Catapult, 90 pts (Stone Thrower; Undead)
3 Crew (Hand Weapon)

War Engines (4#, 90 pts)
1 Screaming Skull Catapult, 90 pts (Stone Thrower; Undead)
3 Crew (Hand Weapon)

Ushabti (6#, 390 pts)
6 Ushabti, 390 pts (Undead)

Ushabti (6#, 390 pts)
6 Ushabti, 390 pts (Undead)

Chariots (9#, 140 pts)
3 Chariots, 140 pts (Standard Bearer Std; Fast Cavalry; Undead)
3 Driver (Hand Weapon)
3 Warrior (Hand Weapon; Bow; Spear)
6 Skeletal Steed

Chariots (9#, 120 pts)
3 Chariots, 120 pts (Fast Cavalry; Undead)
3 Driver (Hand Weapon)
3 Warrior (Hand Weapon; Bow; Spear)
6 Skeletal Steed

Validation Report:
Edition: 8th Edition; Game Type: Normal Game; Army Subtype: Tomb Kings Army
Roster satisfies all enforced validation rules

Composition Report:
Points of Lords: 747 (0 - 750)
Points of Heroes: 165 (0 - 750)
Points of Core: 756 (750 - Unlimited)
Points of Special: 950 (0 - 1500)
Points of Rare: 380 (0 - 750)

Total Roster Cost: 2998

Spiney Norman
04-01-2011, 16:26
Tomb Kings have massive problems, they sucked before 8E, and they took a beating as a result of it, guess where that leaves them.

The weaknesses of the army are a profoud lack of power in combat, skeletons are costed at roughly twice the pts their profile would suggest, the only units that are a reasonable threat in combat are Ushabti and Kings/princes. The bone giant's WS is too low for it to be useful and chariots became obsolete the moment their impact kills ceased to reduce the number of attacks coming back at them.

Furthermore all the TK core selections are terrible, both types of cavalry have been acknowledged as dreadfully sub-par pretty well since the army book was released, but with 8E the only fieldable core unit is skeleton archers, and even they are sorely overpriced. Now realise that a full 25% of your total points has to be spent on those archers. Thats 2 units of 30, more if you're playing above 2K.

The "strengths" of the army, if you can call them that, are a fair shooting ability, catapults, arrows that don't suffer modifiers and the casket all mean they can dish out damage at range.

They can also statistically get magic off more than most opponents, but this is small comfort because the only spells that an opponent actually needs to stop are the light of death and any BRB lore spells you manage to sneak into your list.

Summoning raises skeletons at such a slow rate its hardly worth bothering, and certainly not a major concern to your opponent when it goes off. Urgency used to be scary, but since a charging TK unit will almost certainly take more damage than the unit it is charging (unless its a unit of Ushabti) theres no real reason to stop that either. Smiting is worth casting on a catapult, but given that our catapults cost something like 33% more than comparable machines in other armies thats small comfort.

What it comes down to is that TK utterly fold when it comes to combat, and they do not have the ranged capability to stave off combat long enough to survive most games. In my experience even an experienced TK player will have a huge uphill struggle against all bu the most novice of players.

H33D
04-01-2011, 16:38
People that are saying TK are just fine are being way too optimistic. They have decent models etc but they cost way too much.

They have ok shooting, above average magic, and ok combat, and they pay too much for all of it. How is this good?

I have witnessed some good generals this edition play the TK in a way that made them look like a great army, and I can see that convincing some people one way or the other. But as far as the army itself, and NOT the general, it is probably the worst army this edition.

w3rm
04-01-2011, 16:39
No Tomb Gaurd?

bluemage
04-01-2011, 21:41
Smither's list is pretty much point for point what I would run if I was avoiding special characters against an unknown Wood Elf list.

Caitsidhe
04-01-2011, 22:00
Smither's list is pretty much point for point what I would run if I was avoiding special characters against an unknown Wood Elf list.

I have to say that I agree. In avoiding the special characters (which I still think is a bad idea) that is a very well thought out list if you know your opponent is Wood Elves. I still wouldn't be particularly worried about it as I'm not impressed with Tomb Kings in general, but it is pretty good. The only thing I see as dangerous in it is the spamming of Screaming Skull Catapults. Everything else is doable as they say. :D 8th Edition does open the door to a lot of catapults.

Trains_Get_Robbed
05-01-2011, 06:51
I would drop the first Tomb King, or make the first Tomb King in Smithers list a Prince, and instead actually make him combat worthy.

Drop the jar, and add the staff that lets you reroll your Incans., put on a horse for more movement, incase of a charge a turn later, he can bail with M9 and actually get somewhere.
P.D can be used to dispell RiPs by the way instead of the jar, you can't possilbly use all the P.D even with a T.K Hatted one.

Put the Undying Legion banner on the unit of 37. Drop one unit of Chariots, and combine and slim the Ubshaputi into one unit of seven. I say seven so you can take some ablative wounds before actually losing ranks breaking ability.

This with the combination of cheaper King-Prince, and less units, I would take the combat Prince, and King and throw into a unit of Tomb Guard with the +1 to hit banner, and give the King 2 hand weapons instead as he is already wounding every elf on a 2 and most Trees on a 3 or 4 save for a Treeman on a 5. However if he is going agasint that there is something wrong in your tactics.

Lastly, I would try to fit in a Bone Giant, as with the B.G, the W.E are essentially screwed unless they slow/charge it first and with something of high strength, that being a Treeman or Treekin.

gdsora
05-01-2011, 14:54
I would drop the first Tomb King, or make the first Tomb King in Smithers list a Prince, and instead actually make him combat worthy.

the King 2 hand weapons instead as he is already wounding every elf on a 2 and most Trees on a 3 or 4 save for a Treeman on a 5. However if he is going agasint that there is something wrong in your tactics.

.

The only way a King can get 2 hand weapons is magically
ie they have no weapon option other then 1 Hand, Great, Spear, Flail

and by the look of it i think he was trying to avoid making his Kings too expensive.


And Combat Worthy?
Thats about the best combat worthy you can get cheaply.

Finally Dropping a King = losing 2 My Will Be Done Roles = bad

hashrat
05-01-2011, 15:39
I think that like many armies they just got harder to use well.
Brets need a new book too, but aren't broken either. O nly less forgiving.

I would still say TK make for a better 2nd army.

But then if your friend hasn't played in years he won't have any stupid habits from 6th and 7th and won't spend his time thinking the TK are broken because his old tactics no longer work.

O&G or Skaven are perhaps the best starter armies if that is a concern.
Personnally I think all armies are fine if played for fun.
It is when you run into cheese lists etc that inherent army weaknesses show through.
Play like minded opponents and remember if your army doesn't work, you're doing it wrong! :)