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Herne the hunter
30-12-2010, 02:56
I've just blurted some of my christmas money on a new tank and can't decide which turret to go with. What would you Eldar players recommend?

cuda1179
30-12-2010, 03:31
Fire Prism all the way, especially if you have more than one of them. I will admit that I prefer the look of the Night spinner, but I find that the Prism is usually better.

self biased
30-12-2010, 03:42
both.

split with a buck and buy some rare earth magnets and get creative, bro.

Kresterz
30-12-2010, 03:48
both.

split with a buck and buy some rare earth magnets and get creative, bro.

agreed, only problems will be finding bigger magnets...

but on the whole, magnetising your army provides a much greater freedom ofchoices which I wholeheartedly enjoy;)

Spectral Dragon
30-12-2010, 05:15
I've just blurted some of my christmas money on a new tank and can't decide which turret to go with. What would you Eldar players recommend?

I agree with other posters. Just as you can buy a razorback and use it for either a rhino or razorback (and potentially have all the options for said razorback,) you can do with this kit from what I am seeing, just got to get a little creative.

Sildani
30-12-2010, 05:21
As for your question, well, it depends.

If you need anti tank and anti infantry, the Prism might be best, especially if you can get two. Long range, split fire, combined fire, two firing modes. Quite nice.

If you can only get one or are strapped for points/heavy support slots, go for the Night Spinner. Longer range, indirect fire, barrage, and Rending, with twin - linking and Str 6 large blast built in. Not to mention the movement special rule, which you'll find nowhere else. The last benefit I can think of is the fact that it needs no upgrades really... its range is so long, and it can move and shoot, so it really won't get into much trouble. Keep it in back and fire away.

Hope that helps.

sgtspiff
30-12-2010, 08:28
Slice and Dice baby....
No seriuosly the prism is for now the better choice if not up against huge horde armies or having a Fire dragon based army.

Hendarion
30-12-2010, 10:33
The prism sucks imo. 4+ Cover everywhere ... I don't see whats the benefit of that. Nightspinner hits more often, wounds also on 2+ on most targets, has rending and the REALLY nice special rule. If you don't need to open up tanks, the Nightspinner is the top choice.
I never leave my home without it anymore. Even against Marines, the Nightspinner owns more. It's no use to hit something that will be wounded on same chance, still has cover and misses most of the time. Try and compare. Imo the Nightspinner saved my butt too often to switch back to Fire Prism.
Prisms become cool if you play on a table without cover and if you have 2 of them. But 2 block way too many heavy slots than I would ever want to accept.

Herne the hunter
30-12-2010, 11:07
I do plan on buying an extra turret canopy from my bitz shop so I can have both but I've no idea when I'll be doing that. I don't plan on buying another prism at any point in the near future. As Hendarion pointed out; too many heavy slots.

I only play against one friend and whilst he has a few armies, orks are his favourite and he somehow managed to butcher me last time. My wraithlord can usually deal with his tanks, and from what I've read I'm thinking the Night Spinner might be better at thinning out his infantry numbers than the Fire Prism.

RobPro
30-12-2010, 11:28
Night spinner unless you want to commit two slots for prisms

SPYDER68
30-12-2010, 14:02
Fire prism.

Its a more rounded tank.

Str 9 AP 2 blast to put into marines right after they disembark.. Some potential of some very good damage there.

Or put it out to a large blast for swarms.

Your not resticted to 1 role with the Fire prism.

archont
30-12-2010, 22:26
Spyder: except that s9ap2 small blast honestly sucks, never gonna kill more than one marine

Several posters already said it: if youll be fielding a total of two prisms, make your tank a prism, if it'll be only the one, get a nightspinner

Herne the hunter
31-12-2010, 00:51
Spinner it is! At least until I get hold of an extra turret.

On that subject; I'm toying with getting a third turret to convert into a Firestorm. Has anyone used one of those? And how does having three of the same gun work rules-wise; does it still only count as twin-linked?

The_carpenter
31-12-2010, 00:57
The rules can be found in one of the Imperial armour apoc books I believe. As I recall all three guns are combined into a single profile.

Also bear in mind that some players and T/O don't like/ allow imperial armour units to be used!

Herne the hunter
31-12-2010, 01:10
The rules can be found in one of the Imperial armour apoc books I believe. As I recall all three guns are combined into a single profile.

Also bear in mind that some players and T/O don't like/ allow imperial armour units to be used!

Yeah, I'm averse to paying 50 for a book just for one page.

Like I said, I only know one guy who plays and he has a ton of FW stuff himself. Come to think of it, there's every chance he has the book with the Firestorm in. And I've been playing for a grand total of 5 weeks so I'm not going to be entering any tournies any time soon.

The_carpenter
31-12-2010, 01:15
Yeah, I'm averse to paying 50 for a book just for one page.

Like I said, I only know one guy who plays and he has a ton of FW stuff himself. Come to think of it, there's every chance he has the book with the Firestorm in. And I've been playing for a grand total of 5 weeks so I'm not going to be entering any tournies any time soon.

Ya should be fine then :)

That's pretty much the reason I haven't brought myself a copy yet, of course if you're interested in apoc and the Eldar Superheavies and fighter then it may be more worth while I guess.

Spell_of_Destruction
31-12-2010, 02:40
The prism sucks imo. 4+ Cover everywhere ... I don't see whats the benefit of that.

Perhaps my experience is not typical, but this seems to be one of the myths of 5th ed. 40k.

Yes, cover saves are far more prevalent than they were in 4th ed (and are superior obviously) but there now seems to be an automatic assumption when doing mathhammer calculations that the target unit will get a 4+ cover save. This doesn't reflect my experiences at all, and I always insist on a decent amount of battlefield cover.

"If you're opponent isn't getting a 4+ cover save he must be rubbish" is another chestnut I keep hearing.

Fire Prism for me - a rare multipurpose unit in the Eldar army.

Darkspear
31-12-2010, 03:00
Perhaps my experience is not typical, but this seems to be one of the myths of 5th ed. 40k.

Yes, cover saves are far more prevalent than they were in 4th ed (and are superior obviously) but there now seems to be an automatic assumption when doing mathhammer calculations that the target unit will get a 4+ cover save. This doesn't reflect my experiences at all, and I always insist on a decent amount of battlefield cover.

"If you're opponent isn't getting a 4+ cover save he must be rubbish" is another chestnut I keep hearing.

Fire Prism for me - a rare multipurpose unit in the Eldar army.

Quite the contrary for me. The 4+ cover saves are the most common type of saves I made. In fact it is so prevalent that I call Imperial guard the 3+ save army (4+ cover with go to ground =3+ followed by "get back into the fight).

Spell_of_Destruction
31-12-2010, 04:02
I'm not suggesting that 4+ cover saves aren't common - simply that they're not a given. Squads sometimes have to move into the open to claim objectives or are caught out in the open after their transport is destroyed.

Besides, the Fire Prism fares rather well in this environment due to its high strength value (plus the potential for rerolls to wound with Doom).

The small blast is also nice for ignoring FNP.

Hendarion
31-12-2010, 12:30
Well, if you have tables with low amount of cover, prism is your choice. As I said, I barely see Marines not getting 4+ anyway. So no use to use a prism to shoot at 'em. And even then, the small blast is hard to get a hit with. Not worth in my eyes. Not at all.

Xandros
31-12-2010, 14:57
The prism sucks imo. 4+ Cover everywhere ... I don't see whats the benefit of that. Nightspinner hits more often, wounds also on 2+ on most targets, has rending and the REALLY nice special rule. If you don't need to open up tanks, the Nightspinner is the top choice.
I never leave my home without it anymore. Even against Marines, the Nightspinner owns more. It's no use to hit something that will be wounded on same chance, still has cover and misses most of the time. Try and compare. Imo the Nightspinner saved my butt too often to switch back to Fire Prism.
Prisms become cool if you play on a table without cover and if you have 2 of them. But 2 block way too many heavy slots than I would ever want to accept.

Cover saves are everywhere? You know what's everywhere? Armour saves.

Archibald_TK
31-12-2010, 16:23
I've just blurted some of my christmas money on a new tank and can't decide which turret to go with. What would you Eldar players recommend?

A single Fire Prism (I'm considering you're using a single tank):
- S9AP2 Blast that cause instant death to T4 models, always negates Feel no Pain, and go trough Terminators/Broadside like armor. Double as an effective Anti-Tank, can also cause penetrating hits to Monoliths from long range. Reliable wounding against MC, especially when coupled with the Shuriken Cannon.
- S5AP4 Large Blast is a decent anti-infantry but won't cause instant death to T3 models and only wound T4 on 3+. Will reduce the movement options of some squads (Fire Dragons disembarking, Scourges...) due to AP4 and long range.
- BS4 makes both Blasts reliable and increase the effectiveness of the Shuriken Cannon.

A single Night Spinner :
- The Doomweavers have the advantage of being TL Barrage weapons (reliable hit, Pinning test, cover calculated from the center of the Blast), they have the disadvantage that they're not Ordnance (cannot be fired directly meaning you can't ignore the minimum firing distance, no malus to Pinning tests, no better AV penetration).
- The Doomweaver is S6 and thus cause Instant Death to T3 models and ignore their Feel no Pain. Rending is not enough to make it decent against Heavy Infantry.
- Causing Dangerous Terrain Tests is good against both hordes (multiple casualties) and highly resilient elite units (Terminators with FnP, Seer Council on Bikes) as it's a flat 1/6 chance of causing a wound and slowing down a costly unit can have a huge impact on the game. Multi-wounds models (like Nobz Bikers, Crisis Suits, Raveners) are only hindered, Skilled Riders (Like Hellions with Baron, Reavers, Shining Spears) are nearly unaffected.
- Causing Dangerous Terrain Test is only situational as it's useless against units that have no intention to move or those that would have done the test anyway (Crisis Suits doing JSJ moves from inside a cover).
- Ability to damage a vehicle is low (a single rending AP- S6, while on the paper it can hit up to AV15 it's a rare occurrence and you always have to deal with the -1 on the damage roll) and rely a lot on the Dangerous Terrain Test (Vehicles with Dozer Blades or Deff Rolla rarely fear it, those with Siege Shields or Sensor Spines are immune).
- BS3 makes the Shuriken Cannon upgrade weaker, it doesn't have good synergy with the Doom Weaver anyway..

The Night Spinner is a specialized anti infantry unit with a decreased impact on everything else, the Fire Prism is a versatile unit that can threaten anything from MC or Vehicles to infantry but has far less of an impact than the Night Spinner on the later.

I won't claim to give you a reliable advice (read my sig) but if I were building a standard Eldar force I would go for the Fire Prism first, especially since I would be looking for long range anti-tank weaponry to complement Fire Dragons. If on the other hand I was already cool with my AT then I would go with the Night Spinner, especially if Green Waves or DE were (becoming) a common sight. If I was building a competitive list for a tournament then I would simply not consider the Night Spinner as its lack of versatility would make it a sub par choice and enemy infantry would be quite nicely protected inside their transports (plus I would have at least 2 Fire Prism so combined fire would become an option).

Herne the hunter
31-12-2010, 20:36
Ya should be fine then :)

That's pretty much the reason I haven't brought myself a copy yet, of course if you're interested in apoc and the Eldar Superheavies and fighter then it may be more worth while I guess.

I would love one of those superheavies but they're way out of my price range. The only way I'll ever be prepared to part with that much cash for one mini is if I win the lottery, which is highly unlikely given that I don't play it.


Green Waves

Who?

I may be wrong (new player n' everything so still getting to grips with who's best against what) but I think I'm ok for anti-tank. I have the choice of a Falcon, Wraithlord or Walker to fill up my remaining two Heavy slots and whilst I haven't actually used the latter two yet my Wraithlord has met with only success. I've been beaten in one out of six games playing as Eldar and in that game my Wraithlord was the last piece on the table.

NixonAsADaemonPrince
31-12-2010, 22:26
Who?

I may be wrong (new player n' everything so still getting to grips with who's best against what) but I think I'm ok for anti-tank. I have the choice of a Falcon, Wraithlord or Walker to fill up my remaining two Heavy slots and whilst I haven't actually used the latter two yet my Wraithlord has met with only success. I've been beaten in one out of six games playing as Eldar and in that game my Wraithlord was the last piece on the table.

Orks ;).

Two anti tank Wraithlords will fulfil quite a lot of your needs, though if you want to be competitive you will need a couple of squads of Fire Dragons as well.

Darnok
01-01-2011, 10:24
Yeah, I'm averse to paying 50 for a book just for one page.

Like I said, I only know one guy who plays and he has a ton of FW stuff himself. Come to think of it, there's every chance he has the book with the Firestorm in. And I've been playing for a grand total of 5 weeks so I'm not going to be entering any tournies any time soon.

The next FW book is about Eldar. So a bit more patience, and you will have a reason to shell out those 50 quid. ;)

SPYDER68
01-01-2011, 21:22
Spyder: except that s9ap2 small blast honestly sucks, never gonna kill more than one marine

Several posters already said it: if youll be fielding a total of two prisms, make your tank a prism, if it'll be only the one, get a nightspinner

Except in all the occasions that you wreck a rhino and there all close together. for 1

or after a combat and they get a bad consolidate move.

There are alot of instances its good.

I wouldnt touch the night spinner at all, to me.. its junk.. its just anti infantry that isnt needed when there is another tank that can do close enough to the same things along with other's.

Minsc
02-01-2011, 19:06
Night Spinner:

- It's barrage, so you can hide it and still shoot.
Finally a Eldar Tank that doesn't spend the entire game shaken! Woho!
This also means the Nightspinner is cheaper to field than a Prism, since you don't have to bother with expensive protective upgrades.

- It's twin-linked, so I might actually hit something.
Unlike my Prism cannon who always scatters to smithereens.

- Big S6 AP- Rending >Barrage< is way better against infantry than a Big S5 AP4 directshot. Why? Most things will get a coversave against the Prism anyway, but since the Doomweaver is barrage, whatever you're firing at will usually only get their regular armoursaves. Bye bye entrenched squishy units!

- Dangerous terrain tests. Enough said.

- New Prism looks horrible. New Nightspinner looks sweet.

Also, since I don't own 2 Prisms the choice of combining beams is out for me. Personally I don't see it as worth 300+ pts and 2 heavy support choices for a twinlinked S10 AP1 blast that -might- destroy a Landraider, or a twinlinked S6 AP3 large blast that -might- kill a bunch of MEQ's, that is; if they fail the coversave they're likely to have.
Most likely scenario for me however, is that the shot will scatter and miss.

Shamana
02-01-2011, 20:25
"Most likely scenario for me however, is that the shot will scatter and miss. "

Well, it DOES have higher BS than the spinner's shot, and is just as twin-linked.

I'd say the Prism brings better face value, while the spinner gets you more special rules. Just how useful they are depends on the game. Against orks, tyrannid, DE or daemons I'd certainly consider the spinner.

scarletsquig
02-01-2011, 20:59
I like them both, and think that 2 prism, 1 spinner is a pretty sweet heavy support build.

Minsc
02-01-2011, 23:41
Well, it DOES have higher BS than the spinner's shot, and is just as twin-linked.

Only if you bring 2 Prisms, wich is nearly 3 times as expensive as a Spinner. (Since you need defensive upgrades on Prisms wich Nightspinners don't,)

Sildani
02-01-2011, 23:46
Well, you could get away with upgrades on only one Prism, and leave the other naked. It would still be more than twice as much as a Spinner.

Again: if you can only have one, then build a Spinner. If you can have two, Prisms.

Archibald_TK
03-01-2011, 00:41
Unless my math is rusty, when it comes to the accuracy of their main weapons:
- A Fire Prism has 45% chances of landing a hit on target.
- A Night Spinner that cannot see its target has 56% chances of landing on it.
- A Night Spinner that can see its target has 63% chances of landing on it.

EDIT-
For those who care, a Fire Prism supported by another Fire Prism has 69% accuracy.

mercury14
09-01-2011, 15:38
For me I go with the Night Spinner much more often than a Prism. The main reason is because I can field a 'Spinner for just 115 points and keep it out of reach. If I'm using a Prism I'm probably going to need Holofields and Stones.

Aliarzathanil
10-01-2011, 03:48
I'd go Fire Prism w/Shuriken Cannon and nothing else.

I've found the small blast effective at killing deep strikers and disembarked passengers. The cover save argument is only relevant against things without at least 4+ armour save. These are things Eldar can generally handle without a specialized tank. Area terrain will still give things a save against the 'Spinner, so it might be a wash anyway.

Minsc
10-01-2011, 08:45
Area terrain will still give things a save against the 'Spinner, so it might be a wash anyway.

I'm not sure that you get a coversave from a barrageweapon, where the blast is comming 1" behind you, in the same cover as you are hiding in. I need to re-read my BRB.

Archibald_TK
10-01-2011, 10:03
I'm not sure that you get a coversave from a barrageweapon, where the blast is comming 1" behind you, in the same cover as you are hiding in. I need to re-read my BRB.
You always get your cover save inside terrain, even if the blast is right over your head. Barrage weapons only shine when units are hiding behind fences, vehicles or other units. But you get the pinning effect in all circumstances.

VonManstein
10-01-2011, 12:30
Fire Prism.

Nightspinner is really bad for allcomers build; it doesnt provide you with anything you cannot get somewhere else (or something you don't need in the first place), a waste of the Heavy slot.

Minsc
10-01-2011, 14:32
it doesnt provide you with anything you cannot get somewhere else (or something you don't need in the first place),

So we (Eldar) got other weapons that can force dangerous (and difficult) terraintests on every unit/vehicle you can fit under a large blast template?

Cool, I must have missed that, what weapon is that?

VonManstein
10-01-2011, 14:35
Read the words in brackets: Or something you don't need in the first place.

SgtTaters
17-01-2011, 15:56
Dangerous terrain is a cool trick to have

... but just plain killing the targets in the first place would be better. There's a strange tendency of eldar vehicle weapons to be worse-in-a-roundabout-way than what everyone else uses.
Eldar: "our super advanced magic space elf string artillery makes it difficult and possibly dangerous to walk around!!"
IG/Ork/Tau: " me shoot big shell, go boom".

I'm viewing the nightspinner in the same "super cool fluff, but..." category as vibrocannons. Looking at how DE do their bizarre weapons though with lots of characteristic tests (implosion missile, hexrifle), I could see it being reworked in a hypothetical 5e 'dex to have a neat trick on an initiative or toughness test.