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View Full Version : Are Blood Ravens Successors of Blood Angels?



Croosader
31-12-2010, 23:53
There is a lot of controversy on this topic and I am a bit sceptical about it. The Blood Ravens use similar colours to the Blood Angels, they have a similar name comparing to the other successor chapters, they have unfaltering loyalty to the emperor and they have a lot of librarians. However they have a very stable gene-seed. This brings me to believe that they may be from another Primarch other than Sanguineous. My guesses Roboute Gilliman. But since they are seekers of knowledge they might have found a cure to the gene-seed flaw of the Blood Angels but tried to keep the knowledge for themselves by wiping all traces of their history. This is quite plausible considering the high concentration of psychers. Does anyone have any insight to this mystery? I'm trying to piece together the information I have but am still quite uncertain. Please post any ideas or comments.

Inquisitor Gabriel Ashe
31-12-2010, 23:57
Naw, they're Thousand Sons successors.

Croosader
01-01-2011, 00:00
Really? Hmm so they were not corrupted by the warp? What makes u say this?

Inquisitor Gabriel Ashe
01-01-2011, 00:02
I think it was in the books. They were split off before the Thousand Sons became CSMs. It's why they have so many Psykers.

Croosader
01-01-2011, 00:03
I see.... I'm gonna look this up. But I still like the story bout having kept the cure a secret.

Voss
01-01-2011, 00:08
Meh. They are a colour scheme and barely fleshed out background because GW doesn't let their licensers to use established parts of the 40K universe.

Enjoy the mystery or enjoy the irrelevancy, but there isn't a real answer.

Croosader
01-01-2011, 00:10
Fair enough and the irrelevancy is quite intriguing :D

Inquisitor Gabriel Ashe
01-01-2011, 00:29
Pre-heresy Thousand Sons wore red too apparently.

Xandros
01-01-2011, 00:42
There's no controversy on THAT. Blood Ravens are only superficially similar to Blood Angels.

Winterfell
01-01-2011, 00:52
Never heard that Thousand Sons rumor but I like the sound of it. Makes alot of sense though I agree their is no real answer. Until they come up with one I'm gonna run with this.

[lexus]
01-01-2011, 01:14
I think GW actually hinted at the Blood Ravens being related to a traitor marine company. It was in one of the Space Marine chapter things in the White Dwarf a few years ago. They fleshed out the basic background.

Anyways, its constantly hinted at throughout the games that they have some dark and terrible secret about their past and they guard it, even if it means killing other soldiers of the Imperium. That was largely why they got involved on Kronus I think.

Anyways, GW and Relic hint at it, but I doubt they will ever confirm anything. Its just to much fun to let the fans think up of something. Much like the identity of the two missing first founding chapters.

TheWarmaster
01-01-2011, 01:19
they have a very stable gene-seed.

So scratch Thousand Sons then.
My vote's on one of the lost legions. Nobody just talks about it because it's soo secret.

Vaulkhar
01-01-2011, 02:11
Shouldn't this be in the background forum? Anyway, we can rule out their being a BA successor on the grounds that they don't display either the Black Rage or the Red Thirst. Ditto the Space Wolves - no fangs, no Curse. An active Betcher's Gland would seem to rule out the Imperial Fists and so on.

There are hints that they might be either the loyal Thousand sons or a revival using geneseed dotted through the fiction - the existence of a sect called the Corvidae in the pre-Heresy Legion, the similarity in colour schemes between the current BR and the pre-Heresy 1K Sons, a high incidence of psykers and several others.

However, the end of A Thousand Sons makes it very clear that the Legion's gene seed was so catastrophically unstable that Magnus was forced to make a deal with a warp entity that was at least a Greater Daemon just to stop the Legion being destroyed by mutation. Without that outside stabilisation, it's hard to see how the geneseed could be usable...unless the Blood Ravens have a truly spectacular skeleton in the closet.

Thanatos_elNyx
01-01-2011, 03:48
It may well have been Tzeentch causing the instability, so as to gently push Magnus into cutting a deal to stop said instability.

Once the Thousand Sons had been turned, there is no need for Tzeentch to continue that corruption. And besides the Rubric stopped the mutation of any Thousand Sons that had gone to Chaos.

So while the Thousand Sons's geneseed is predisposed to making Psykers; it may not necessarily have be unstable in and of itself.

Just speculation on my part.

Londinium
01-01-2011, 04:05
A Thousand Sons has a pretty obvious reference to the 'Ravens of Blood' in it and there is a Thousand Sons sect called the Corvidae (derived from the Latin for Raven). Along with the previously mentioned hints that the BR come from a traitor legion, the fact they don't know their Primarch and their large numbers of librarians. It stands to reason that the Blood Ravens are Thousand Sons successors. The reason there is a debate is because GW/THQ/Relic don't want to come right out and say it because it provokes debate like this.

There is certainly little to no evidence of them being Blood Angels sucessors though.

Croosader
01-01-2011, 09:02
what bout ultramarines? due to the stable gene-seed i doubt they should be ruled out. as u may recall they were the biggest chapter pre-heresy. they might have split from them because there were quite a bit of successors. altho the part about the traitors is also quite intriguing. were there traitor legions that had stable gene-seeds?

from what i have gathered BA should be ruled out completely and i agree. but for some reason i dont think they were once traitors. They seem to have a pride in their primarch if they truly are loyalist why would they have pride in their unknown primarch?

Gatsby
01-01-2011, 09:05
its been mentioned before but its been hinted that they are Thousand Sons successors, as the thousand sons had a stable gene-seed (they weren't corrupted by chaos, they were betrayed by the imperium and only LATER succumbed to chaos in order to survive.)

Xandros
01-01-2011, 10:45
The Index Astartes article mentions Thousand Sons tend towards mutation and that this accounts for the disproportionate amount of psykers in the legion. This was much elaborated upon in A Thousand Sons. I think it may go back to the first Codex: Chaos where thebackground was first presented in it's modern form.

So no. Thousand Sons don't have stable geneseed.

[lexus]
01-01-2011, 11:20
what bout ultramarines? due to the stable gene-seed i doubt they should be ruled out. as u may recall they were the biggest chapter pre-heresy. they might have split from them because there were quite a bit of successors. altho the part about the traitors is also quite intriguing. were there traitor legions that had stable gene-seeds?
Who says that Blood Ravens have a stable gene seed? The fact that they have a much higher count of Librarians shows that their gene seed is not as stable.

Castigator
01-01-2011, 11:25
;5214243']Who says that Blood Ravens have a stable gene seed? The fact that they have a much higher count of Librarians shows that their gene seed is not as stable.

No. A higher count of Librarians shows that they recruit heavily from worlds with a heavy incidence of psyker mutations. Being a psyker would predate being made a Space Marine.

As for their geneseed, this is what it says on Lexicanum (don't know the exact source), which does mention that the Blood Raven geneseed seems to be noticable stable (but is also tested more rigorously) because their is only one known mutation in the Space Marine-specific organs (compared to many other Chapters that have often several organs missing, dysfunctional or otherwise impaired).



The Blood Raven geneseed seems to be stable, though the high proportion of psykers in the Blood Ravens ranks has resulted in more regular testing of the purity of their geneseed tithe. Thus far, there has been little evidence of mutation. There is, however, a slight mutation in the Catalepsean Node, which grants Blood Ravens perfect recall, but renders them unable to experience R.E.M. Sleep.

Logarithm Udgaur
01-01-2011, 11:48
However, the end of A Thousand Sons makes it very clear that the Legion's gene seed was so catastrophically unstable that Magnus was forced to make a deal with a warp entity that was at least a Greater Daemon just to stop the Legion being destroyed by mutation.

Does it explain what the point of the Rubic of Ahriman was, if the problem (mutation) had already been taken care of?

Gatsby
01-01-2011, 12:06
Does it explain what the point of the Rubic of Ahriman was, if the problem (mutation) had already been taken care of?

twice, the Thousand sons had run into the issue of mutation negatively affecting their legion.

1: before finding Magnus they began dying off to a strange mutation, Ahrimans brother fell to it. Once Magnus was located he solved the issue at the cost of his eye (coincidentally one of the key emblems of Tzeentch.) This solved the mutation issue the chapter had been experiencing (they had a pure gene-seed after this.)

2: after entering the eye of terror they began to mutate again, this time it was widespread and effecting those who had no or little psyker abilities and turning them into daemons. THIS time they used the rubric and made the chapter what they are today.

At anytime the gene-seed from a few deserters (perhaps still loyal to the imperium, though i have no idea why) could have left the legion BEFORE entering the eye of terror and started a new chapter, hiding themselves amongst the newly founding chapters (in fact had they fled to Terra they would have been able to throw themselves at the emperors mercy as other loyalist had.)

Askari
01-01-2011, 14:56
They are pretty likely to be Thousand Sons geneseed users.

The mutations can be explained a few ways - haven't been around long enough to suffer serious mutation, Tzeentch's gifts being random and useless, some geneseed mixing with more stable variant.

There's a lot pointing to the Thousand Sons, the Corvidae, the Raven of Blood vision, the proportion of psykers in addition to their notable strength over other Chapter's psykers, the colour scheme (don't read too much into that unto itself).

Croosader
01-01-2011, 16:48
Perhaps one of the lost chapters then considering that the gene seed is fairly stable and we know nothing of the lost chapters so its the most plausible answer we have

Croosader
01-01-2011, 16:52
i seriously need to get a few more codexes to follow this story

MajorWesJanson
01-01-2011, 17:16
They are pretty likely to be Thousand Sons geneseed users.

The mutations can be explained a few ways - haven't been around long enough to suffer serious mutation, Tzeentch's gifts being random and useless, some geneseed mixing with more stable variant.

There's a lot pointing to the Thousand Sons, the Corvidae, the Raven of Blood vision, the proportion of psykers in addition to their notable strength over other Chapter's psykers, the colour scheme (don't read too much into that unto itself).

Were the Corvidae with the rest of the Legion when it went into the Eye?

Londinium
01-01-2011, 17:27
Were the Corvidae with the rest of the Legion when it went into the Eye?

It's not really explained. We know that Magnus send away all the Thousand Son's fleet based marines before the Wolves arrived. It's quite possible that onboard one of the ships was part of the Corvidae sect and they later evolved into the Blood Ravens. Equally likely is that Magnus could well have sent for those marines once they arrived in the Eye and they rejoined the main legion.

ChaosTicket
01-01-2011, 21:50
Did anyone mention that they could have been from the Cursed Founding? The Rumor is that they a lost branch of the Thousand Sons, I think from one of the Dawn of War Novels.

The Cursed Founding created several experimental chapters using various geneseed, notably the Sons of Anteus(Death Guard?) and Minotaurs(World Eaters), so creating a stable Thousand Sons chapter would be something to try.
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The similarities between the Blood Angels and Blood Ravens are superficial, as they simply have the same color, and have the Blood Drop from the Angels' replaced with a raven. their are alot of chapters with similar colors, Icongraphy, or name, it doesnt mean every chapter with white armor is related to the White Scars.

Valo
01-01-2011, 22:18
If you read thousand sons,from black library,somewhere in that book it actually describes the armour worn by the corvidie,and mention a black raven with a blood drop,sorry I cant tell you where,its been quite a while since I read it.

on another note,in one of the dawn of war books,while undergoing the transformation into a neophyte,a blood raven mutated,growing tentacles for hands.....so that suggests the gene seed isint that stable.

Croosader
01-01-2011, 22:22
well is that the only recorded evidence of a mutated blood raven? cuz if it is then i think ruling out the outliers would be the best way of handling it. The gene-seed is probably stable now but there might have been remnants of mutation still remaining.

Admiral Koppenflak
01-01-2011, 23:42
You folks really need to finish Dawn of War 2.

In short... Their 'blasphemous' secrets have nothing to do with the Thousand Sons, or, directly, any other traitor legion. However, evidence to date actually points at the Word Bearers as the founding legion.

Bone Crusher
02-01-2011, 00:00
Isn't a raven a symbol of Tzeentch or something? The chapter master of the Blood Raven's certainly been corrupted by Tzeentch whether or not that actually has any relation to their founding I have no idea.

Charistoph
02-01-2011, 02:30
Whether they be sons of the Word Bearers, Thousand Sons, or a Lost Legion will always be up to debate because GW likes having loose ends for players to imagine in themselves.

What we do know is that they are old enough to have had a terrible tragedy befall them early enough in their history for the details to have been lost in time and the chapter to have mostly recovered, yet sufficiently late enough in their history to have developed a significant presence in their assigned sector to have ancient bases and relics being routinely discovered and unearthed.

We know that the wardens of their gene-seed in Sol can easily identify which legion they ultimately come from, but they aren't talking. Whether this is due to trade secrets, shame, or orders from the High Lords or the Echlisiarchy, there is no way to tell.

We also know that they have access to some equipment not normally used by other chapters, and a history of not using other readily available equipment. They also use tactics and formations no common to the Codex: Astartes.

We know that they have an obsession with history, knowledge, and artifacts. We do not know if this originated with the creation of the chapter, or developed from the tragedy that stole their history from them. Signs do point to the former, but it could have easily been encouraged by the latter.

This does setup for good Deathwatch scenarios, or even to help personalize stories for Blood Angel players in their games. Just don't let them finish the story, but only add more questions and puzzles to draw out the affair.

k-ruppt
02-01-2011, 05:06
You folks really need to finish Dawn of War 2.

In short... Their 'blasphemous' secrets have nothing to do with the Thousand Sons, or, directly, any other traitor legion. However, evidence to date actually points at the Word Bearers as the founding legion.

Really? Because if im not mistaken the entire premise of the story in Dawn of War 2: Chaos Rising is them finding out a huge secret possibly relating the Blood Ravens to the Black Legion

It's been a while since I beat the game but from what I remember you find out that every single time your chapter comes into contact with the black legion the chapter master (who is also chief librarian) mysteriously orders a withdrawal. In defiance your company commander Gabriel Angelos orders you to purge the sector of chaos and in the process your Librarian Jonah Orion (who, depending on how you play it, turns out to be corrupted as well) reveals that the chapter master while in his early days his master was fighting with a greater demon of Nurgle and...this is the part where it gets fuzzy...either betrays his master for promises of power or takes promises of power in return for his life. Thus revealing that the Blood Ravens chapter master is given over to the power of Chaos. In the end even abbadon makes an appearance, but for what reason I don't know.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9NNxcWRzug4

Now whether this will be cannon or just another red herring is yet to be seen, but it definately seems as if the Blood Ravens have strong ties to Chaos.

As they say, "Knowledge is power, guard it wisely."

Charistoph
02-01-2011, 05:38
All the chapters have at least SOME connections with Chaos. They travel through the Warp all the time. Half of the legions were lost to Chaos. Squads are turned every decade. Companies are turned every few centuries. There have been enough chapters that have been turned, that every loyal legion has had at least one daughter chapter turn.

So, it doesn't mean as much as you think.

k-ruppt
02-01-2011, 06:00
All the chapters have at least SOME connections with Chaos. They travel through the Warp all the time. Half of the legions were lost to Chaos. Squads are turned every decade. Companies are turned every few centuries. There have been enough chapters that have been turned, that every loyal legion has had at least one daughter chapter turn.

So, it doesn't mean as much as you think.

This may be true, but other than the original horus heresy I don't know of any Chapter Masters being under the influence of Chaos. Losing a single squad or even company is bad enough and serves as a constant reminder to the perils of the warp, but to have an entire chapter (sort of) being slowly converted to chaos is quite a problem I would say. Especially one as (in)famous as the Blood Ravens.

Charistoph
02-01-2011, 06:22
This may be true, but other than the original horus heresy I don't know of any Chapter Masters being under the influence of Chaos. Losing a single squad or even company is bad enough and serves as a constant reminder to the perils of the warp, but to have an entire chapter (sort of) being slowly converted to chaos is quite a problem I would say. Especially one as (in)famous as the Blood Ravens.

No Chapter Masters were turned to Chaos during the Horus Heresy, they could only be turned well after the Heresy, as the position never existed, because there were no Chapters.

I'm not as familiar with the names as some people here are, but there are enough that they have their own list on the Lexicanum site, and can be quoted ad nauseum by others who frequent this board.

But yes, every space marine chapter is well aware of the constant temptation that Choas entices them with.

StefDa
02-01-2011, 10:39
No Chapter Masters were turned to Chaos during the Horus Heresy, they could only be turned well after the Heresy, as the position never existed, because there were no Chapters.

That is not quite true, certain Legions were divided into what was called Chapters.

Castigator
02-01-2011, 11:46
This may be true, but other than the original horus heresy I don't know of any Chapter Masters being under the influence of Chaos.

Would this guy (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Lufgt_Huron) qualify?

ChaosTicket
02-01-2011, 13:14
Lufgt Huron didnt turn to chaos until AFTER his chapter became traitors, in which like the Alpha Legion and Night Lords, its more traitor than daemon-worshipping.

That happens to many renegades, as even if they are innocent,or simply traitors not chaos, they still hide in the maelstrom or eye of terror.

k-ruppt
02-01-2011, 15:34
Would this guy (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Lufgt_Huron) qualify?

Indeed he would, I stand corrected.:p

Tordeck
02-01-2011, 21:33
Page 54 Column 1 Paragraph 3 Line 7 of the Blood Angels codex states "There are other surviving Chapters whose names and traditions would suggest a connection with the Blood Angels - the Blood Swords and Blood Ravens amongst them - but these Chapters do not claim Sanguinius' lineage, truthfully or otherwise."

Charistoph
03-01-2011, 02:23
That is not quite true, certain Legions were divided into what was called Chapters.

Incorrect. The Chapter organization was only implemented after Roboute Guilliman finished the Codex: Astartes and pushed it as the main organizational document for the Space Marines which was only instituted after the remnants of the Traitor Legions had been pushed back to the Eye of Terror, or scattered from Terra, i.e. after the Horus Heresy had been defeated with the death of Horus himself. Since Chapters did not exist until after the Heresy was done, my original statement stands that no Chapter Masters fell during the Horus Heresy.

That of course doesn't mean that a few high-ranking Space Marines in the Loyalist Legions didn't fall to Chaos during the Heresy, of course. But this is a side-track to the main discussion.

Croosader
03-01-2011, 04:00
Page 54 Column 1 Paragraph 3 Line 7 of the Blood Angels codex states "There are other surviving Chapters whose names and traditions would suggest a connection with the Blood Angels - the Blood Swords and Blood Ravens amongst them - but these Chapters do not claim Sanguinius' lineage, truthfully or otherwise."

This was precisely why I started this thread. Although Blood Ravens I can see do not share lineage with Blood Angels what about Blood Swords? I know nothing about them except their name and logo. Can someone fill me in?

Lord_Crull
03-01-2011, 04:11
Incorrect. The Chapter organization was only implemented after Roboute Guilliman finished the Codex: Astartes and pushed it as the main organizational document for the Space Marines which was only instituted after the remnants of the Traitor Legions had been pushed back to the Eye of Terror, or scattered from Terra, i.e. after the Horus Heresy had been defeated with the death of Horus himself. Since Chapters did not exist until after the Heresy was done, my original statement stands that no Chapter Masters fell during the Horus Heresy.


Actually Chapters existed during the Heresy. Read First Heretic and Call of the Lion. Chapter Masters show up from the Word Bearers and Dark Angels Pre-Heresy.

Castigator
03-01-2011, 08:33
Lufgt Huron didnt turn to chaos until AFTER his chapter became traitors, in which like the Alpha Legion and Night Lords, its more traitor than daemon-worshipping.

That happens to many renegades, as even if they are innocent,or simply traitors not chaos, they still hide in the maelstrom or eye of terror.

That, however, hinges on a definition of Chaos Marines as outright, blatantly worshipping daemons in temples of sacrilege in the first place; which IMO is a far too narrow definition of "Chaos".

Similar to pre-fall TS, Soul Drinkers, even the race of the Dark Eldar, one can "serve" Chaos for entirely selfish reasons, "non-worship"-reason if you like, without necessarly praying and sacrificing day-in-day out on altars adorned with the Chaos-star.

Lord-Caerolion
04-01-2011, 03:56
Incorrect. The Chapter organization was only implemented after Roboute Guilliman finished the Codex: Astartes and pushed it as the main organizational document for the Space Marines which was only instituted after the remnants of the Traitor Legions had been pushed back to the Eye of Terror, or scattered from Terra, i.e. after the Horus Heresy had been defeated with the death of Horus himself. Since Chapters did not exist until after the Heresy was done, my original statement stands that no Chapter Masters fell during the Horus Heresy.

That of course doesn't mean that a few high-ranking Space Marines in the Loyalist Legions didn't fall to Chaos during the Heresy, of course. But this is a side-track to the main discussion.

So I guess the Blood Angels character of Chapter Master Raldoron doesn't exist then, despite being named in at least Horus Rising? Chapters were merely what some Legions named their Company divisions, each of which was led by a Chapter Master.

Oh yeah, and also, the Word Bearers arranged their entire Legion into Chapters, the vast majority of whom fell into Chaos worship. There's your corrupted Chapter Masters.