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Shadow Marine
03-01-2011, 10:56
Hi,

With the release soon of the stormraven, I was wondeirng how popular it would be if GW released it as a Codex Approved with rules in WD for all chapters (like they did with a Eldar skimmer -can't remember the name though). They could even allow Orks to loot it!

The storm raven doesn't seem to be rare so it is not a stretch for all chapters to have access to it (maybe it coudl be 0-1).

I know it is one of the things that make GK & BA unique, but wasn't this the case for the LRC with the BT.

Of course the plus side for GW is more model sales!

Warpcrafter
03-01-2011, 11:10
I wouldn't mind Orkifying one of them, though it would have to have more guns.

Gatsby
03-01-2011, 11:10
it was also the case with the Mortis Dreadnought. If they start handing it out to everyone, then it begs the question why cant they fix the rules for the DA and templar codex and its outdated equipment.

Korraz
03-01-2011, 11:46
Hi,


I know it is one of the things that make GK & BA unique, but wasn't this the case for the LRC with the BT.

Of course the plus side for GW is more model sales!


The cycle goes like this:

Step One: "Oh god, we are making a new PA dex and I have no idea how to make them different enough from the vanillas. I KNOW! I'll invent some whacky new thing!"
Step Two: "Oh god, we are making a new PA dex and I have no idea how to make them different enough from the vanillas. I KNOW! I'll steal the whacky new things from the last dex AND add something new!"
Step Three: "Oh, we are remaking the vanilla dex. Neat, I'll just put everything new from the other dexes in."

And thus, the cycle continues.

Zweischneid
03-01-2011, 11:53
it was also the case with the Mortis Dreadnought. If they start handing it out to everyone, then it begs the question why cant they fix the rules for the DA and templar codex and its outdated equipment.

Because fixing the rules for DA or Templars "on the side" doesn't promote a sales-rush for mini's. Indeed, it would arguably just interest people already playing DA or Templars. Updating them with a "new shiny Codex" with the whole "release" events and ceremony, marketing and all that, on the other hand pushes them to new and old customers alike. Why fire some of your best bullets prematurely?

Releasing "rules for all" with the Stormraven would presumably push its sale as customers other than Blood Angel players pick them up too (in greater numbers).

carldooley
03-01-2011, 12:13
the 'ork-ified' vendetta is great fun also. I got this off of (I think ;)) BoLS:

Gatsby
03-01-2011, 12:16
Because fixing the rules for DA or Templars "on the side" doesn't promote a sales-rush for mini's. Indeed, it would arguably just interest people already playing DA or Templars. Updating them with a "new shiny Codex" with the whole "release" events and ceremony, marketing and all that, on the other hand pushes them to new and old customers alike. Why fire some of your best bullets prematurely?

Releasing "rules for all" with the Stormraven would presumably push its sale as customers other than Blood Angel players pick them up too (in greater numbers).

a release giving orks access to stolen stormravens should be cool to then (sales would increase), and why not stolen Wave serpents to Dark Eldar, seems like somthing they should use (they would know how to use the technology after all, oh, and sales would increase.) I could go on.

Just because an Ultramarine player wants some shiny new toy that has been limited to Blood Angels and Grey Knights doesn't mean they should get it, why not give nemesis force weapons to the smurf dex while we're at it. They already have access to other armies exclusive war gear, ah who the hell am i kidding, its GW of course they're going to give it away to the smurfs.

oh and by the way, using your logic, giving the Mortis BACK to the Dark Angels would increase sales as well. As would making them viable lists again, then people would start buying them again (that means a sales increase!!!)

Zweischneid
03-01-2011, 12:28
a release giving orks access to stolen stormravens should be cool to then (sales would increase), and why not stolen Wave serpents to Dark Eldar, seems like somthing they should use (they would know how to use the technology after all, oh, and sales would increase.) I could go on.


Indeed it would. The only reason not to it is, I would assume, an Ork-specific flyer sometimes in the near to medium future (and DA flyers are already in the 'dex and presumably soon to be released).




Just because an Ultramarine player wants some shiny new toy that has been limited to Blood Angels and Grey Knights doesn't mean they should get it, why not give nemesis force weapons to the smurf dex while we're at it. They already have access to other armies exclusive war gear, ah who the hell am i kidding, its GW of course they're going to give it away to the smurfs.


Stormraven has never been BA/Grey Knight exclusive. It was first introduced just this (meaning 2010) year (long after the Codex Space Marines was published) in the BA Codex along with a short line giving a preview/teaser indicating that it would also see light in the upcoming Grey Knight Codex. Indeed, this "Grey-Knight-Teaser" is the very reason why I personally believe that the strategy of GW is (and has been all along) to roll it out as a flyer for all Marines (including both Grey Knights and Ultramarines) and not keep it BA-exclusive. This would also fit the "larger trend" towards more flyers which may or may not get true flyer rules either in an "expansion" or in 40K 6th Edition.

Why you feel to bash Ultramarines who might get it (but not Grey Knights who almost definitly will be stealing the shine of BA's "exclusivity") is beyond me. In short, the Storm Raven was never intended to be a BA exclusive thing like Death Company (proof: the Grey Knight reference in its description of the BA Codex). Bashing Ultramarines based on the constructed straw argument that it was supposed to be, is kinda missing the point.



oh and by the way, using your logic, giving the Mortis BACK to the Dark Angels would increase sales as well. As would making them viable lists again, then people would start buying them again (that means a sales increase!!!)

I am sure a future, new Dark Angels Codex will come with a great variety of good reasons to buy it.

carldooley
03-01-2011, 12:34
I am beginning to see some eerie similarities to the Dawn of War computer game. with each expansion comes another unit or two for each race. in Soulstorm fliers were introduced.

What do we get on the tabletop? when each codex is released, another unit of models is released or redone and re-released. Most recently they are releasing fliers for each army.

Lord Damocles
03-01-2011, 12:36
So that's why my 40K games have been taking so long lately.


I've fallen foul of Soulstorm's horrific load times!

Gatsby
03-01-2011, 12:38
Indeed it would.

OH, and lets give Avatars to the smurf dex, OH and the monolith. Hell lets just mush ALL the codex choices into the smurf dex!!


Stormraven has never been BA/Grey Knight exclusive. It was first introduced just this year (long after the Codex Space Marines was published) in the BA Codex along with a short line giving a preview/teaser indicating that it would also see light in the upcoming Grey Knight Codex. Indeed, this "Grey-Knight-Teaser" is the very reason why I personally believe that the strategy of GW is to roll it out as a flyer for all Marines (including both Grey Knights and Ultramarines) and not keep it BA-exclusive.

and according to the fluff (new or old) ONLY the Blood Angels have access to it, and its RUMORED that the secretive Grey Knights are the ony others with access, you know, that Inquisitional force that at a moments notice can say, "hey you, we ARE commandeering that vehicle."


Why you feel to bash Ultramarines who might get it (but not Grey Knights who almost definitly will be stealing the shine of BA's "exclusivity") is beyond me. In short, the Storm Raven was never intended to be a BA exclusive thing like Death Company. Bashing Ultramarines based on the constructed straw argument that it was supposed to be, is kinda missing the point.

its because EVERY TIME something new comes out for a space marine army, C:SM players start whining that they should get whatever is new (and as the current C:SM is more C:Ultramarines, it will be referred to as such)


I am sure a future, new Dark Angels Codex will come with a great variety of good reasons to buy it.

Doubt it, everything will be given to other dex's taking away any and all uniqueness to it. want all bikes? see C:SM, want all terminators? see C:SW.

Lord Damocles
03-01-2011, 12:45
and according to the fluff (new or old) ONLY the Blood Angels have access to it...
Direct quote and reference please.

Danjester
03-01-2011, 12:48
I might be wrong, but isn't there a precedent set by the LR:C. That was BT only initially, wasn't it?

Zweischneid
03-01-2011, 12:56
and according to the fluff (new or old) ONLY the Blood Angels have access to it, and its RUMORED that the secretive Grey Knights are the ony others with access, you know, that Inquisitional force that at a moments notice can say, "hey you, we ARE commandeering that vehicle."

????

How and where. First, there is no old fluff on the Storm Raven. Second, the new BA Codex clearly states that the Stormraven is a, quote, "relative new addition to the Blood Angels armory", followed by a long, convoluted section detailing how the Adeptus Mechanicus refused to hand it over (including to the Blood Angels) for a long, long time, (during which, Grey Knights might have been the ones test-piloting it) but finishes with a sentence referencing, quote, "It is just as believable that shadow-politics and administrative inertia are behind the Stormraven's belated introduction into the armies of Mankind as it is that the delay was caused only by diligence on the part of the Adeptus Mechanicus."

So, (a) nowwhere does it state that only BA's have it, indeed they seem to have gotten it comparatively late (compared, perhaps, to Ultramarines), (b) that its release has been delayed by the Adeptus Mechanicus (IMO already giving some fluff-explanation for a more widespread use later), that (c) Grey Knights were the laboratory rats to test it after it was found (a preview teaser for the next PA-Codex following BA) and (d) that is was introduced to, plural, the armies of Mankind eventually, if belatedly.

The Stormraven simply appeared first in the BA Codex (like Sternguard first appeared in the regular SM Codex). That doesn't necessarly imply that it was meant or destined that these units should forever more (or were ever even intended to be) exclusive to these armies.

Gatsby
03-01-2011, 13:00
Direct quote and reference please.

Its under the Stormraven fluff section, i do not however own (nor do i currently have access to) a BA codex, I'm sure you can find it, or someone else can locate it.


I might be wrong, but isn't there a precedent set by the LR:C. That was BT only initially, wasn't it?

same with the Mortis Dreadnought. Imperial Armor 2 says that its exclusive to the unforgiven (Dark Angel) chapters.

In the end, smurfs WILL get everything that everyone else used to have exclusively. Its just how GW works.

Edit:


????

How and where. First, there is no old fluff on the Storm Raven.

agreed, im not arguing that there was any old fluff.


Second, the new BA Codex clearly states that the Stormraven is a, quote, "relative new addition to the Blood Angels armory", followed by a long, convoluted section detailing how the Adeptus Mechanicus refused to hand it over (including to the Blood Angels) for a long, long time, (during which, Grey Knights might have been the ones test-piloting it) but finishes with a sentence referencing, quote, "It is just as believable that shadow-politics and administrative inertia are behind the Stormraven's belated introduction into the armies of Mankind as it is that the delay was caused only by diligence on the part of the Adeptus Mechanicus."

if your going to quote it please quote the entire paragraph. But as it stands I recall it reading like they got a hold of them but no one else has (except possibly the Grey Knights) and in a game universe which is STAGNANT, as in has NOT advanced any time wise, that would imply that no one else has them. REGARDLESS of whether they are meant to or not. In closing that means that they are currently EXCLUSIVE, to the Blood Angels. So unless they want to advance the timeline...


So, (a) nowwhere does it state that only BA's have it, indeed they seem to have gotten it comparatively late (compared, perhaps, to Ultramarines), (b) that its release has been delayed by the Adeptus Mechanicus (IMO already giving some fluff-explanation for a more widespread use later), that (c) Grey Knights were the laboratory rats to test it after it was found (a preview teaser for the next PA-Codex following BA) and (d) that is was introduced to, plural, the armies of Mankind eventually, if belatedly.

see above as I believe it answers all these.


The Stormraven simply appeared first in the BA Codex (like Sternguard first appeared in the regular SM Codex). That doesn't necessarly imply that it was meant or destined that these units should forever more (or were ever even intended to be) exclusive to these armies.

Once again see above.

Lord Damocles
03-01-2011, 13:03
Its under the Stormraven fluff section, i do not however own (nor do i currently have access to) a BA codex, I'm sure you can find it, or someone else can locate it.
So, in other words, you cannot back up your claim*, do not have access the relevant source, and are completely wrong. Nice.



*Note that I already knew that this would be the case. Zweischneid above has quoted the relevent passage(s) from Codex: Blood Angels (5th ed.), pg.38

Gatsby
03-01-2011, 13:20
So, in other words, you cannot back up your claim*, do not have access the relevant source, and are completely wrong. Nice.



*Note that I already knew that this would be the case. Zweischneid above has quoted the relevent passage(s) from Codex: Blood Angels (5th ed.), pg.38

Very nice...

But I DO believe recalling something IS a relevant source (after all i do recall... never-mind, that statement may get me banned:D) whether it turns out to be 100% correct or not is another matter. Just because I don't have the information on hand does NOT mean i cant go by recollection. And in this case, if you read my above post you will understand where my views come from.

However i would like to see the rest of the quote, as i may have not read the passage thoroughly and there may be information in there that I overlooked.

Zweischneid
03-01-2011, 13:50
Very nice...

But I DO believe recalling something IS a relevant source (after all i do recall... never-mind, that statement may get me banned:D) whether it turns out to be 100% correct or not is another matter. Just because I don't have the information on hand does NOT mean i cant go by recollection. And in this case, if you read my above post you will understand where my views come from.

However i would like to see the rest of the quote, as i may have not read the passage thoroughly and there may be information in there that I overlooked.

I think reading your posts above, the general impression was less that you went with recollection, and more that you went with a rather vocal and explicit bias against Ultramarines; something which is frequently known to significantly distort perceptions (and even more so recollections) in ways that comply with the very prejudices one starts out with.

Or in other words, whatever injustice GW may or may not have done to Dark Angels or Black Templars (which are entirely different discussion, where you may or may not have your point), the Stormraven never fit the "exclusive" label in the first place and appeared to be (the SM) part of a larger "flyers-for-40K" strategy from the get-go.



Anyways, here's the BA quote:


Stormraven Gunships

The Stormraven Gunship is a relatively new addition to the Blood Angels armory. Like its larger and more established brother, the Thunderhawk, the Stormraven is an extremely versatile craft that combines the role of dropship, armoured transport and strike aircraft.

The introduction of the Stormraven lies shrouded in secrecy. It has been reported that its Standard Template Construct file was discovered at the start of the 41st Millenium in a forgotten Martian archive, and that the Adeptus Mechanicus refused to begin mass-production until they assured themselves that the schematics were hale, untainted and utterly in keeping with the strictures and covenants of the Machine God. Nonetheless, some records suggest that the Stormraven was in existence even before then, most notably active in the service of the Grey Knights, the secretive Daemon-hunters of Titan. Who can say where the truth of the Stormraven's provenance lies, for the Imperium's bureaucracy is as labyrinthine as it is petty. It is just as believable that shadow-politics and administrative inertia are behind the Stormraven's belated introduction into the armies of Mankind as it is that the delay was caused only by diligence on the part of the Adeptus Mechanicus.

The Stormraven is not only smaller than the Thunderhawk but, thanks to its array of vectored thrusters, is also considerably more agile. This, combined with the precise skill and incredible reaction time of its Space Marine crew, allows it to jink effortlessly through the interceptor fire and manoeuvre at full speed through cluttered spires of a hive city. As a result, the Blood Angels employ Stormravens as air support craft in environs where it would be foolish or impractical for a Thunderhawk to attempt the same role. Other Chapters might take a different tack altoghether, using Drop Pods or Land Raiders to achieve the same strategic goals, but the Blood Angels refuse to cede their mastery of the heavens to any foe, even for a moment.


It follows another section on its weapons, how it transports a Dread, etc.., but I think those are the relevant parts (including the final BA-specific phrase which might be the culprit in evoking a BA-only feel).

Gatsby
03-01-2011, 14:09
Very true, after reading it thoroughly nowhere does it say that it is exclusive. I must have misinterpreted it when I read it.

Although my stance remains that the smurf codex should just have to wait to get it in the new 6th ed codex.

The Inevitable One
03-01-2011, 14:19
So, in other words, you cannot back up your claim*, do not have access the relevant source, and are completely wrong. Nice.

Why don't we keep the negativity and sarcasm to ourselves?

Anyways, what Zweischneid has stated is correct. Athough it is only currently in Codex: Blood Angels, it is accessible to other Space Marine Chapters.

Souleater
03-01-2011, 14:50
I might be wrong, but isn't there a precedent set by the LR:C. That was BT only initially, wasn't it?

I think BT could have as many as their FOC allowed but other chapters could have 0-1...or was that a later change? At any rate I believe you are broadly right - stuff that has been 'Chapter Specific' has later gone into general circulation.

And it makes things easier for Dex-of-the-month Chapters, too. I'm wondering just how many 'My SWs are now Grey Knights' armies we will see. :D

Lord Khabal
03-01-2011, 15:12
It would however be VERY cool if each chapter got its own changes to the stormraven. Blood angels got skyes of blood and bloodstrike missiles.
Grey Knights could have sacred hull or blessed and Nemesis Missiles (for exemple: one shot + large blast + no inv. saves / S4 / AP-)
Wolves had something else, as did ultramarines, dark angels and black templars.

Would introduce a strategical difference and re-invigorate older dexes.

Souleater
03-01-2011, 15:19
Obviously Space Wolf Storm Wolves would get Hell Wolf air to ground missiles. On a hit they have the same effect as JotWW. If they miss the SW player can place D3 Thunder Wolves :)

GrogDaTyrant
03-01-2011, 15:21
Why would they bother to let Orks loot Stormravens? They barely allow them to loot Rhinos these days. :rolleyes:

jt.glass
03-01-2011, 16:36
Hi, With the release soon of the stormraven, I was wondeirng how popular it would be if GW released it as a Codex Approved with rules in WD for all chapters (like they did with a Eldar skimmer -can't remember the name though). They could even allow Orks to loot it!Hmmm, is that not already pretty much confirmed?

At least for other chapters; orks are unlikely as GrogDaTyrant point out.


it was also the case with the Mortis Dreadnought.
oh and by the way, using your logic, giving the Mortis BACK to the Dark Angels would increase sales as well.What exactly was Mortiss dread?


jt.

Zweischneid
03-01-2011, 16:39
Hmmm, is that not already pretty much confirmed?

At least for other chapters; orks are unlikely as GrogDaTyrant point out.

What exactly was Mortiss dread?


jt.

Mortis Dreadnought (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Mortis_Dreadnought)

Hendarion
03-01-2011, 16:48
Am I the only one who's depressed/angry about the (nearly) certainty that soon all Space Marines will be able to flat-out Marines AND Dreads while shooting everything else to bits?

Inquisitor Gabriel Ashe
03-01-2011, 16:50
That's alright. They'll get shot out of the skies. Flat-Out + Immobilize = All Dead!

Hendarion
03-01-2011, 16:52
That's alright. They'll get shot out of the skies. Flat-Out + Immobilize = All Dead!
Not according to the current set of rules, but... if you want it to happen... I won't restrict it.

stainawarjar
03-01-2011, 16:53
That's alright. They'll get shot out of the skies. Flat-Out + Immobilize = All Dead!

Only if it is on their turn, like if they tried to ram something (which the Stormraven can not)

Edit: Curses! Ninja'd!

Inquisitor Gabriel Ashe
03-01-2011, 17:00
Sigh. "So a skimmer that is immobilised immediately crashes and is destroyed (wrecked) if it moved flat out in its last turn." The FAQ doesn't change this.

Oh, but you're saying they'll just disembark as normal for a wreck if it's in the opponent's turn. Right? Hmm.

Zweischneid
03-01-2011, 17:07
Sigh. "So a skimmer that is immobilised immediately crashes and is destroyed (wrecked) if it moved flat out in its last turn." The FAQ doesn't change this.

Oh, but you're saying they'll just disembark as normal for a wreck if it's in the opponent's turn. Right? Hmm.

That's a rule question repeatedly causing much soul-searching. Join the fun here (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=283345&highlight=transport+fast).

jt.glass
03-01-2011, 17:11
Mortis Dreadnought (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Mortis_Dreadnought)Thanks, and sorry I should have looked it up for myself rather than making someone else do the work.

So essentially, it is just a dread with two guns? That strikes me as a bit obvious to be meaningfully exclusive to anyone!


Oh, but you're saying they'll just disembark as normal for a wreck if it's in the opponent's turn. Right? Hmm.Exactly!


jt.

Hendarion
03-01-2011, 17:26
Sigh. "So a skimmer that is immobilised immediately crashes and is destroyed (wrecked) if it moved flat out in its last turn." The FAQ doesn't change this.
Check your source. You are quoting wrong and making things up. That is not what the rulebook says and neither what the FAQ says.

Inquisitor Gabriel Ashe
03-01-2011, 17:47
That is an EXACT quote from the skimmers section of the rulebook! I hand it in hand and copied it exactly! I simply added the bold. It can be found on page 71 (mini AoBR rulebook).

nagash66
03-01-2011, 17:52
Well others thing that were once chapter specific are now Smurf friendly so i would not be surprised if this which is not even really chapter exclusive is made free for all.

jt.glass
03-01-2011, 17:55
That is an EXACT quote from the skimmers section of the rulebook! I hand it in hand and copied it exactly! I simply added the bold. It can be found on page 71 (mini AoBR rulebook).He's right, his quote is exactly what it says (except that the first "s" is lower case).


jt.

Xeones
03-01-2011, 19:43
Getting back to the original question...

As I recall, reliable sources in the rumor section hinted that BA and GK would not be the only chapters to have the Stormraven after an article in WD is published.

This would seem to indicated that it's going to happen whether people like it or not. No one really knows if that means ALL chapters will get it, or if only vanilla chapters will benefit. (or Dark Angels only? :p)

Anyway, I don't think that people really have to worry that much about them. BA players who have already used them seem to agree that they are not really a competitive option for them, and most people seem to dislike the looks of the model anyway so I doubt that suddenly, every marine player is going to be spamming 'Ravens.

That being said, I really hope that they are available for Vanilla Marines at some point since the SR would fit well with my chapter's tactical flavor and fluff (and I think I can convert mine to make them look acceptable).

Space Wolves with Stormravens sound scary to me though. Arjac or Bjorn or just about any number of SW characters coming out of a SR with Wolfguard backup could be painful. Let's just hope that if SWs get the SR, they can't fit thunderwolves inside them. :rolleyes:

Hendarion
03-01-2011, 20:43
That is an EXACT quote from the skimmers section of the rulebook! I hand it in hand and copied it exactly! I simply added the bold. It can be found on page 71 (mini AoBR rulebook).
Ah, truely. I mixed it up myself, sorry.
However, the passengers are not also destroyed.

lotrchampion
04-01-2011, 01:26
I think it's a logical step, as has been said, following the flyers-for-all model that 40k seems to be going towards now. Which I think is really rather cool. I remember several (5+?) years ago now, there was a battle report in WD with Orks vs Imperial Guard, with both sides fielding flyers under the FW rules. One of the best reports I've read, thanks in no small part to the three dimensional aspect added by the flyers. If this is the new direction for 40k, then I'm happy for SMs to get the Storm Raven all round.

Oh yeah, and assume I've also written some stuff here about the Storm Raven easily being added to the normal Marine armoury for background reasons. It's already been covered comprehensively, but lets just pretend I added something productive...

:)

ForgottenLore
04-01-2011, 01:31
As I recall, reliable sources in the rumor section hinted that BA and GK would not be the only chapters to have the Stormraven after an article in WD is published.


They haven't hinted at it, they have outright said it. (Harry I think, though I am not positive it was him)

I chocked it up as a given that vanilla marines would get the SR a month ago.

AlphariusOmegon20
04-01-2011, 01:37
They haven't hinted at it, they have outright said it. (Harry I think, though I am not positive it was him)

I chocked it up as a given that vanilla marines would get the SR a month ago.


LOL I'm starting to wonder if Chaos will get it too.

Supposedly I've always seen it as essentially a renamed Stormbird, and Chaos still has Stormbirds....

Hendarion
04-01-2011, 10:29
Stormbirds are way bigger than Thunderhawks. And not the same size as a StormRaven ;)

shabbadoo
04-01-2011, 10:43
If the Stormraven goes all Codex Astartes, rather than GK/BA only, lots more of them will sell. Lots more. I'll buy at least one one for sure if that happens, as I have no interest in playing GK, and no longer play BA.

WildWeasel
04-01-2011, 14:07
If the Stormraven goes all Codex Astartes, rather than GK/BA only, lots more of them will sell. Lots more. I'll buy at least one one for sure if that happens, as I have no interest in playing GK, and no longer play BA.

This.

The Storm Raven is GW's chance to scratch the Thunderhawk itch of Marine players everywhere, short of an actual Thunderhawk kit (which I would expect to clock in at $120US minimum, and suffers from being a very points intensive Apoc only model).

I'll certainly be getting three for my Wolves if they get the SR. If not, I will probably start a pocket Flesh Tearer force for at least one (got the Gabriel Seth model just for its awesomeness).

Navar
04-01-2011, 15:58
I have heard this rumor as well from multiple sources. I give it a month after the release of the kit and the smurfs should have access to it at a minimum.

AlphariusOmegon20
04-01-2011, 16:10
Stormbirds are way bigger than Thunderhawks. And not the same size as a StormRaven ;)

Actually, Every Pic I've found has Stormbirds half the size of a T Hawk.

Korraz
04-01-2011, 18:11
You have pictures of those things? I only know one and that one's not very good. Care to share?

MajorWesJanson
04-01-2011, 18:32
Actually, Every Pic I've found has Stormbirds half the size of a T Hawk.

And every reference to them in the fluff has them as larger, more elegant transports, compared to the easier to build, more disposable Thunderhawks.

LonelyPath
04-01-2011, 19:43
I believe there's a image of the Stormbird in the Stormraven thread over in the rumours section. Yep, it's in post #814. In that it's pretty massive.

AndrewGPaul
04-01-2011, 20:30
That (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5218970&postcount=814)'s a picture of a Space Marine landing craft of some sort, but it's never been identified as a Stormbird. Plus, it's clearly larger than a Thunderhawk. :)

dala_karn
04-01-2011, 21:02
if we take the horus heresy novels into canon then the stormbirds are described as bulkier and slower then thunderhawks but can carry double the amount of marines (100). it also has a lot more guns then a thunderhawk.

Vaktathi
04-01-2011, 21:06
This is another instance that clearly shows we have far too many SM books, and the problems with multiple SM books. When one gets something unique, they all are expected to get it or something like it at some point, and the fact that supposedly unique units *could* be so easily swapped points out how truly unnecessary multiple SM books really are. We end up with books getting random stuff thrown in purely for the sake of making them somewhat different enough to somehow justify their own book, and then people want/expect it to go in the other books as they'd be really easy to just port over.

Inquisitor Gabriel Ashe
04-01-2011, 22:27
When are 'nilla Maries getting Baal Predators?

Doppleskanger
04-01-2011, 22:38
This one makes me laugh. Obviously what we're getting here is going to expand the game into a new dimension for a lot of players with this one model. Why shouldn't it be as inclusive as possible? I am more than happy for all Marine Dex to get this and see absolutely no reason why Chaos Marines shouldn't be included too. What benefit is really gained by excluding players from using this model. The fluff has been reasonably elegantly written (by GW standards!) to allow for this to be used.

And fluff fanatics should firstly consider that we shouldn't limit things to what was written out in RT and 2nd Ed as it's simply more fun if the model range and game play style expands. They should also open up a copy of RT and see all the stuff that was included that currently isn't, full flyer rules, jet planes, all sorts of robots...now we're finally getting this stuff and people are complaining!

Hellebore
05-01-2011, 02:08
And fluff fanatics should firstly consider that we shouldn't limit things to what was written out in RT and 2nd Ed as it's simply more fun if the model range and game play style expands. They should also open up a copy of RT and see all the stuff that was included that currently isn't, full flyer rules, jet planes, all sorts of robots...now we're finally getting this stuff and people are complaining!

If it expands sensibly then sure. But jump pack grappling dreadnoughts or unlimited attack dreadnoughts, or deep striking land raiders, or an entirely new landing craft where none was ever needed (what's a drop pod or thunderhawk for then?) are not sensible. They are unimportant to the expansion of 40k, but very important to the expansion of the business.

They also eat away at the playstyles of other armies. Basically, marines can then play like any other army except are cheaper and better supported.

So the only reason to play a non marine army is personal aesthetics, which is an unreliable business model. Then consider the lack of support or coverage of non marine armies in general (the DE army won't get 4 different talos kits to represent 4 different weapon builds like marines got for dreadnoughts) and many casual customers are just going to go with what's cheap and easy.

Why play eldar when you can do a better fast assault army for less in the blood angels or even guard with valkyries?

Considering that the Sanguinary guard got their very own plastic kit and that in the 40k setting there are only 30 sanguinary guard in the blood angels chapter and maybe that many in each successor chapter (if they even use them) compared to the billions of ork flashgitz out there and you can see why people would choose an army that does what they want and is supported for cheaper.

If they're willing to create whole boxed sets for tiny variations in space marine units that in any other army would simply be a single kit, why would you settle for anything less?

Hellebore

daemonicemission
05-01-2011, 04:02
For those who have access to the BA dex...

Check out the Stormraven entry, second paragraph, about the bottom third. When I read it, it almost seems like a thinly veiled stab, perhaps at GW corporate...

Maybe referring to why the SR model is so late in release, or a battle, perhaps, in getting it approved for all SM armies?

carldooley
05-01-2011, 07:14
For those who have access to the BA dex...

Check out the Stormraven entry, second paragraph, about the bottom third. When I read it, it almost seems like a thinly veiled stab, perhaps at GW corporate...

Maybe referring to why the SR model is so late in release, or a battle, perhaps, in getting it approved for all SM armies?

only if you have a paranoid mindset. :shifty:

but then why would your keepers let you out of the straitjacket and trust you with modeling knives if you did think this way? :(

joking aside, I missed it the first time that I read it. on the other hand, there is fluff for entire human populations lost to mathematical errors (kind of like the American Census :eyebrows:) and relieving forces only arriving centuries after the last person sending the call has died.

Zweischneid
05-01-2011, 07:47
When are 'nilla Maries getting Baal Predators?

When are Blood Angels getting Sternguards, Vanguards, Rifleman Dreads, etc... ?

carldooley
05-01-2011, 07:50
When are Blood Angels getting Sternguards, Vanguards, Rifleman Dreads, etc... ?

ahem, they already have sternguard, vanguard, and riflemen dreads:
Sternguard; P. 27, 87
Vanguard; P. 27, 92
Riflemen Dreads; P. 94

and when I build my Halo army, I'll be using Land Speeder Storms for Rhinos, Land Speeders for Razorbacks, Land Speeder Typhoons for Hornets, and Stormravens for Pelicans

Zweischneid
05-01-2011, 08:07
ahem, they already have sternguard, vanguard, and riflemen dreads:
Sternguard; P. 27, 87
Vanguard; P. 27, 92
Riflemen Dreads; P. 94


Now isn't that right?

Before we know it, Blood Angels might even end up with Landraider Crusaders, TH/SS Terminators, Scout Bikers and only God knows what else....

Not to mention all the things Blood Angels "stole" for Angels of Death (1996) which evidently appeared first in the Codex Ultramarines (1995) and was therefore clearly intended to be Ultramarines only - notably, Landspeeders, Razorbacks, Whirlwinds (ok, this one was WD first;though still Space Marine, not BA), etc.., you name it.

Doppleskanger
05-01-2011, 09:53
@Hellebore

What are drop pods and thunderhawks for?

Well, just a guess here but I assume that the Storm Raven is a pragmatic replacement for the Thunderhawk which is such a major part of SM background but so rarely seen on the tabletop. The Thunderhawk is a resin only model that costs way too much for most pockets and is too powerful for standard 40k. Here we now have a model that pretty much performs the same role but GW can mass produce for a reasonable price and isn't totally over the top in terms of its offensive and defensive capabilities. I'm also assuming now we will never see the long rumoured plastic Thunderhawk and that the Storm Raven is the end product of that developmental process.

So my answer to your question is

Thunderhawks are for Epic and Stormravens are for 40k.

carldooley
05-01-2011, 10:00
Before we know it, Blood Angels might even end up with Landraider Crusaders, TH/SS Terminators, Scout Bikers and only God knows what else....

I really hope that this is tongue in cheek. Possibly you might want to check out the Codex for yourself. . .

Land Raider Crusaders; P. 37, 91 (dedicated transport)
TH/SS Terminators; P. 28, 86
Scout Bikers; P. 31, 93


and only God knows what else....
look here (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=248074)

I always considered Unleash Rage to be an OTT power. (and I always take it when I run my SM clones as BA)

The Marshel
05-01-2011, 10:21
I'm also assuming now we will never see the long rumoured plastic Thunderhawk and that the Storm Raven is the end product of that developmental process.

If what you're saying were true then why make the baneblade kit, which is too powerful for standard 40k and has a similar mini version in the leman russ.

Thunderhawks are for apoc and there are stacks of marine players. If gw makes a plastic thunderhawk kit they well sell fast in the initial release and remain at the top of any new marine player's wishlist for years to come, with or without the stormraven.

shin'keiro
05-01-2011, 10:29
Its under the Stormraven fluff section, i do not however own (nor do i currently have access to) a BA codex, I'm sure you can find it, or someone else can locate it..

At no point in the BA codex does it say the Storm Raven is exclusive to the Blood Angels... It also says it was first used by the Grey Knights.

So we can expect it in all other marine codices in time.

Zweischneid
05-01-2011, 10:33
At no point in the BA codex does it say the Storm Raven is exclusive to the Blood Angels... It also says it was first used by the Grey Knights.

It doesn't even say that. What it says is (emphasis mine): "Nonetheless, some records suggest that the Stormraven was in existence even before then, most notably active in the service of the Grey Knights,"

Thus: Grey Knights using them is simply the "most notably"/most widely known prior record of their use. The very formulation however implies that there are other, "less notable" uses of it. And neither does it say Grey Knights were "first", simply that they had it before the Blood Angels (who got it as the Adeptus Mechanicus finally got around to doing, quote,: "mass-production").

Doppleskanger
05-01-2011, 10:42
@The Marshal

Fair point but I wouldn't see the Baneblade as being so emblematic to the guard as the TH has been to the marines. The Stomper is perhaps a better match as Gargants are so quintessentially orky...

It just strikes me that rumours of the TH being in development have been around for so long and then rather out of the blue we get this cut down version. And as a marine player myself I have been waiting for a plastic TH for a long time, but now I have the option to get something that does the same thing (give or take) but is viable in my normal games. I can see myself buying several of these over the years and using them a lot. I may have bought a single TH and used it once a year at best. Do we know how well the apocalypse only kits have sold? My guess is a lot on initial release but that repeat sales are low. I wonder if we'll really see many more apoc only kits?

shin'keiro
05-01-2011, 19:25
Thus: Grey Knights using them is simply the "most notably".

True.. so soon it will be Storm Ravens for all codices.. just like the LRC:D The only codex that wont get one for a while is the SW Codex.

dragonet111
05-01-2011, 19:34
True.. so soon it will be Storm Ravens for all codices.. just like the LRC:D The only codex that wont get one for a while is the SW Codex.

They don't need it.

Seriously what use is there for a Raven when you can ride Wolves into battle:D

BigDuke6
05-01-2011, 19:53
Well to be honest the cynical part of me thinks GW is producing books at a rate that is very quick and to sell them they put "new" stuff in it to sell A) the codex B) the new models. Really how hard are the BA's! Granted they do have a weakness but really unless you knock the Raven out turn 1 you are on a real hard task! Yeah I know i models doesn't a an army make, but hey its a bar steward of a unit!

Xeones
05-01-2011, 19:54
Seriously what use is there for a Raven when you can ride Wolves into battle:D

REAL Air Cav of course!! :angel:

...sorry, I couldn't resist. :D

Mannimarco
05-01-2011, 20:05
REAL Air Cav....for when the marines just need to be able to do what the IG do!

I really hope they dont just end up allowing every marine army to take the SR, an army is defined by its differences, if there are none then whats the point in having multiple marine dexes?

Would it sell more SR models if every marine could take them? of course it would but its a slippery slope to go down: Would more chimera kits sell if EVERY imperial faction could take them? Would more land raiders sell if the guard could take them? would all the imperial vehicles sell more if Chaos and Orks could loot them?

Zweischneid
05-01-2011, 20:23
REAL Air Cav....for when the marines just need to be able to do what the IG do!

I really hope they dont just end up allowing every marine army to take the SR, an army is defined by its differences, if there are none then whats the point in having multiple marine dexes?

Would it sell more SR models if every marine could take them? of course it would but its a slippery slope to go down: Would more chimera kits sell if EVERY imperial faction could take them? Would more land raiders sell if the guard could take them? would all the imperial vehicles sell more if Chaos and Orks could loot them?

You're going at it from the wrong end.

40K as a game IS going "flyer" currently. Not much denying that.

That means, ever faction over short or long will need a flyer. Now, if you accept that, you can have GW spend their design man-hours and other resources doing a different flyer for each and every SM-Faction.. because.. let's face it, they will be early adopters, if not this summer by some expansion/WD article, than by the time 6th edition rolls around.

Or they could just pass the finished Stormraven on to all Space Marines and spend their design-man-hours doing Ork/Eldar/Necron/Tau-flyers to fill the lot.

As far as I see it, giving the Stormraven uniformly to all Marines, they're taking the shortcut over Space Wolves, Grey Knights, Black Templars, Dark Angels and all the rest who each could probably justify a flyer on their own by sales (and to be different); and instead pour the flyer-love on the much-neglected Xenos. And people still complain!


But perhaps GW does read this thread, takes heart, cancels all that silly Necron/Tau/SoB development and does a unique flyer for each and every Space Marine chapter.... ;) I'd love to hear the "community's whine" on that one.

Tethylis
05-01-2011, 20:38
At no point in the BA codex does it say the Storm Raven is exclusive to the Blood Angels

But the very fact that the SR exists in only one codex proves the fact that they are exclusive to BA's. Just like baal preds, it does not have to say word for word "this is an exclusive for this codex" if you can't find an entry for them in another codex then by the very definition of the word they are still exclusive to the BA's.


It also says it was first used by the Grey Knights. Thats a fluff referance only, there is no mention of the SR whatsoever in the DH codex

Vaktathi
05-01-2011, 20:52
It will apparently, from every rumor heard so far, be in the upcoming GK book however.

WildWeasel
05-01-2011, 21:15
The fact that it is, currently, only in the BA codex only proves that it is exclusive, in terms of game rules, to the Blood Angels at this time. Its fluff does not establish it as unique to the BA, unlike the Baal. The latter's fluff specifically talks about how the STC for the Baal was found by the Blood Angels and their refusal to hand it over to the Mechanicum.

Compare that to the Storm Raven, who's STC was found by the Mechanicum on Mars, and was only recently put into mass production. While the BA codex may be the point it was introduced to the game, all it takes is a page in a White Dwarf or a web article to give it to other Marine codices, and that does not contradict any existing fluff. The Blood Angels still get loads of their own special stuff, it gives more/all Marine players access to the mini-Thunderhawk, gives GW much better sales potential on a brand new large vehicle kit, and ties forward nicely into the rumored Summer of Fliers.

MajorWesJanson
05-01-2011, 23:08
They don't need it.

Seriously what use is there for a Raven when you can ride Wolves into battle:D

Just wait for FW to make a kennel that can be carried in place of the dreadnought. Then you can fly those Wolves around so they don't get tired :D

shin'keiro
05-01-2011, 23:22
all it takes is a page in a White Dwarf or a web article to give it to other Marine codices, and that does not contradict any existing fluff. It gives more/all Marine players access to the mini-Thunderhawk, gives GW much better sales potential on a brand new large vehicle kit, and ties forward nicely into the rumored Summer of Fliers.

Yes... as ive said, all marine codices will get it in time... :D

Inquisitor Gabriel Ashe
05-01-2011, 23:36
Now isn't that right?

Before we know it, Blood Angels might even end up with Landraider Crusaders, TH/SS Terminators, Scout Bikers and only God knows what else....

Not to mention all the things Blood Angels "stole" for Angels of Death (1996) which evidently appeared first in the Codex Ultramarines (1995) and was therefore clearly intended to be Ultramarines only - notably, Landspeeders, Razorbacks, Whirlwinds (ok, this one was WD first;though still Space Marine, not BA), etc.., you name it.
Now you're just being silly. A better question is when are BAs getting Thunderfire cannons, Land Speeder Storms, and Captains with decent wargear choices?

Gatsby
06-01-2011, 00:23
Now you're just being silly. A better question is when are BAs getting Thunderfire cannons, Land Speeder Storms, and Captains with decent wargear choices?

An even BETTER question, when are Dark Angels getting better... anything, everything they have SUCKS! Apparently our storm shield warranty's were up so we couldn't get the improved ones, our missile systems are broken and only fire half the time, and our bikes only run on premium unleaded so cost more to keep running. We lost our requisition form for the thunderfire cannons, so we gotta wait to get the requisition form to order more requisition forms... OH, our Vanguard Veterans ALL went on vacation at the SAME time, as did our Sternguard (no secretaries day card for that Human Resources employee.) We LOST our venerated Mortis pattern dreadnoughts (although supply says they aren't lost, they just wandered off, being so old they do that sometimes.) Our Company Masters lost their luggage and with it their terminator armor and storm shields. The Ravenwing supply Sergeants don't have the tools to attach the grenade launchers to the bikes (they lost them playing poker with the watchers in the dark) and don't get me started on the Ironwing supply Sergeants! The mess they made with the redeemers, 18 servitors, LOST, do you know how hard it is to requisition new servitors (especially when you have no requisition forms) and the redeemer parts... TOTALLY useless now! As for the Stormravens we requested, damn things got recalled, something about the gas pedal? They were getting stuck or something, I don't know.

TheWarmaster
06-01-2011, 00:33
An even BETTER question, when are Dark Angels getting better... anything, everything they have SUCKS! Apparently our storm shield warranty's were up so we couldn't get the improved ones, our missile systems are broken and only fire half the time, and our bikes only run on premium unleaded so cost more to keep running. We lost our requisition form for the thunderfire cannons, so we gotta wait to get the requisition form to order more requisition forms... OH, our Vanguard Veterans ALL went on vacation at the SAME time, as did our Sternguard (no secretaries day card for that Human Resources employee.) We LOST our venerated Mortis pattern dreadnoughts (although supply says they aren't lost, they just wandered off, being so old they do that sometimes.) Our Company Masters lost their luggage and with it their terminator armor and storm shields. The Ravenwing supply Sergeants don't have the tools to attach the grenade launchers to the bikes (they lost them playing poker with the watchers in the dark) and don't get me started on the Ironwing supply Sergeants! The mess they made with the redeemers, 18 servitors, LOST, do you know how hard it is to requisition new servitors (especially when you have no requisition forms) and the redeemer parts... TOTALLY useless now! As for the Stormravens we requested, damn things got recalled, something about the gas pedal? They were getting stuck or something, I don't know.

Oh come on, it can't be that bad, I heard some Imperial Guard commander lost 100 Baneblades 5 minutes before his base was assaulted and destroyed :D

Inquisitor Gabriel Ashe
06-01-2011, 00:37
Last I heard the Dark Angels were either going to visit their friends the Squats or were they getting put into the Chaos codex? One or the other. :evilgrin:

Chem-Dog
06-01-2011, 00:38
Yeah the SR will become a regularly available SM vehicle sooner or later.

daemonicemission
06-01-2011, 04:05
only if you have a paranoid mindset. :shifty:

but then why would your keepers let you out of the straitjacket and trust you with modeling knives if you did think this way? :(

joking aside, I missed it the first time that I read it. on the other hand, there is fluff for entire human populations lost to mathematical errors (kind of like the American Census :eyebrows:) and relieving forces only arriving centuries after the last person sending the call has died.

The doctors said the meds would fix my head. :cries:

Also, (coincidence?), I worked for the Census this last year. Overall the most incompetant batch of folks I'd ever met. No kidding.

My two cents about the SR for everyone: Good. From a sales perspective, good. From Space Marines in general as an army, good. As a BA player, I still think it's good. As a (relatively) compact, elite strike force, a reliable, small scale, fast air transport has been lacking for some time.

Lord Khabal (top of page 2) had what I thought was a pretty cool idea, giving different chapters different wargear for their SRs. Unless the hardware is all the same, it would be difficult to do with an initial kit, but hey, that's what FW is for, right?

Zweischneid
06-01-2011, 07:53
But the very fact that the SR exists in only one codex proves the fact that they are exclusive to BA's. Just like baal preds, it does not have to say word for word "this is an exclusive for this codex" if you can't find an entry for them in another codex then by the very definition of the word they are still exclusive to the BA's.

Thats a fluff referance only, there is no mention of the SR whatsoever in the DH codex

There is no fluff reference because the concept wasn't on the table then.

And no, just because it exists in one codex first, doesn't mean it is intended for that Codex only. Vanguard/Sternguard appeared in the Codex: Space Marine first (and exclusively) until the BA Codex came around. Yet there is no doubt that they were intended to be a fairly generic "veteran-option" for all Space Marines; not something Ultramarine-exclusive.

Same with the fairly generic "Space Marine-flyer-option" of the Stormraven. It first appears in the BA-Codex because thats the Codex that happend to be published when the Stormraven concept itself was ready to be published. Would it have been the Dark Angels or Black Templar Codex that had been in the pipeline as 40K more broadly was gearing up for flyers, the Stormraven would have appeared there instead.

Your logic would make it impossible to make a new unit for 40K which is used by more than one Codex. As GW never in my knowledge publishes more than one Codex simulatiously, everything new must be definition be in some Codex first (and thus exclusively untill the next Codex comes along that uses it; simply by the virtue of delay in Codex-publishing).

Hendarion
06-01-2011, 07:57
I think the entire SRaven-Concept is still utterly imba. One slot for a solid flat-out-skimmer-transport for troops AND Dread with ******** of weapons to shoot with. Meh. Totally meh and unbalanced, no matter the point-costs.

Vaktathi
06-01-2011, 08:02
Well, I'm pretty sure if it were 1000pts nobody would mind at all.

That said, I don't think it's OP really at its current points, but I do think it was an entirely unnecessary inclusion that feels really hamfisted and last minute.

Hendarion
06-01-2011, 08:04
Everything that costs much points in a single slot is imba. LandRaiders, Hornet-Squads, Deathstar-Units...
That is simply because you need more slots to counter these things. So you block 2-3 slots to counter 1 slot of your enemy. You end up with only Standard-Slots which are useless (at least to my Eldar it seems that way) to counter anything of the big ones.

Souleater
06-01-2011, 08:26
Are the Sisters of battle going to get access to the Storm Raven or their own flyer? :D

logan054
06-01-2011, 08:35
I might be wrong, but isn't there a precedent set by the LR:C. That was BT only initially, wasn't it?

As far as I remember back in 3rd when they released the model it was BT could have as many as they wanted while other chapters could just have one, personally i think it would be great if normal marines gained one, even if it was in limited numbers.

Tethylis
06-01-2011, 09:50
There is no fluff reference because the concept wasn't on the table then.

And no, just because it exists in one codex first, doesn't mean it is intended for that Codex only.

Your logic would make it impossible to make a new unit for 40K which is used by more than one Codex.

Seriously, are people trying to use a fluff entry in the BA codex to allow SR's to be used in DH and other SM armies? Does the current SM/DH or any other codex for that matter have an entry for SR's? No, that means right now they are available exclusively to BA's. I have no doubt that at some point in the future they will most likely be available to all SM's but then they will need either another codex or WD entry for them. Units that are exclusive to one codex or army will remain so until another codex or WD uses that same unit, the codecies do not have to be released at the same time.

Just look at Eldar Harlequins, which were exclusive to CWE for many years until the new DE book got released last year. Was there allready fluff justification to include them in the DE, yes. Could you use that CWE fluff to justify including Harlequins in a DE force before the new codex was released, absolutely not. I would have about as much right to include a Monoliths or Baneblades as I do to include SR's in a non-BA force.

Wishing
06-01-2011, 10:41
Seriously, are people trying to use a fluff entry in the BA codex to allow SR's to be used in DH and other SM armies? Does the current SM/DH or any other codex for that matter have an entry for SR's? No, that means right now they are available exclusively to BA's. I have no doubt that at some point in the future they will most likely be available to all SM's but then they will need either another codex or WD entry for them. Units that are exclusive to one codex or army will remain so until another codex or WD uses that same unit, the codecies do not have to be released at the same time.


You are of course correct - people are just assuming that you are trying to use the undeniable fact that currently only BA armies can take stormravens as an argument that they are meant to remain BA exclusive in the future and be written as such in the fluff. Simply stating what is evident and undeniable - that no other codex currently has access to SRs - doesn't add anything to the debate, so it's understandable why people would misunderstand you.

Zweischneid
06-01-2011, 12:11
Seriously, are people trying to use a fluff entry in the BA codex to allow SR's to be used in DH and other SM armies? Does the current SM/DH or any other codex for that matter have an entry for SR's? No, that means right now they are available exclusively to BA's. I have no doubt that at some point in the future they will most likely be available to all SM's but then they will need either another codex or WD entry for them. Units that are exclusive to one codex or army will remain so until another codex or WD uses that same unit, the codecies do not have to be released at the same time.


No denying that. But the discussion revolves around the "intent" of GW.

Faction 1 argues, that because the Stormraven is originally (and so far exclusively) published in the BA Codex, it is as a consequence meant to be exclusive to Blood Angels (like, say, Death Company) and to allow other Space Marine Chapters access to the Stormraven would consequently be a violation of GW's own original design and purpose (and by implication, therefore, an insult to Blood Angels players who deserve that their exclusive right to the Stormraven is preserved).

Faction 2 argues, that even though the Stormraven has from the start been intended for wider Space Marine use, it merely appeared in Codex Blood Angels (rather than an earler SM Codex like, say, Sternguard), as this was the Codex in the pipeline when the Stormraven was ready. Giving the Stormraven to any and all Space Marine Codexes that follow than means simply implementing the original intent one Power-Armour-Codex at a time.

The fluff-section in the BA book was quoted extensively in this thread, including by myself, because assumptions were made that it stated phrases concerning "exclusivity" in support of faction 1, which after thorough reading of the text it seems not to do in any explicit form or shape. Indeed, the "preview" in the BA-Codex hinting that the next Space Marine Codex for Grey Knights will most probably get the Stormraven by and large tends to supports this, and the use of formulations like "most notable" or "mass-production" rather appear to support faction 2.

Bunnahabhain
06-01-2011, 12:57
Everything that costs much points in a single slot is imba. LandRaiders, Hornet-Squads, Deathstar-Units...
That is simply because you need more slots to counter these things. So you block 2-3 slots to counter 1 slot of your enemy. You end up with only Standard-Slots which are useless (at least to my Eldar it seems that way) to counter anything of the big ones.

Remind me, how much does a squad of necron warriors cost? Although they too are fairly imbalanced, You really don't need a couple of FOC slots to deal with them...

If I had my way, the SR would not exist at all; the model is one of the worst GW have managed in years, the ruiles are silly, and the background is horribly klunky and ham fisted.

If we do have to have it, just stick it in the unified marine codex...

Wicksy
06-01-2011, 13:09
Seriously, are people trying to use a fluff entry in the BA codex to allow SR's to be used in DH and other SM armies? Does the current SM/DH or any other codex for that matter have an entry for SR's? No, that means right now they are available exclusively to BA's. I have no doubt that at some point in the future they will most likely be available to all SM's but then they will need either another codex or WD entry for them. Units that are exclusive to one codex or army will remain so until another codex or WD uses that same unit, the codecies do not have to be released at the same time.

Just look at Eldar Harlequins, which were exclusive to CWE for many years until the new DE book got released last year. Was there allready fluff justification to include them in the DE, yes. Could you use that CWE fluff to justify including Harlequins in a DE force before the new codex was released, absolutely not. I would have about as much right to include a Monoliths or Baneblades as I do to include SR's in a non-BA force.

Well, if non-blood angels players start using them without official say so then i'm off to the shops to make 5 of the best blood angels thunder"blood" cavalry ;) and start taking 4 blood priests per army and giving all my guys blood sagas :) oh yeah and blood fire cannons aswell :D

WildWeasel
06-01-2011, 13:54
Seriously, are people trying to use a fluff entry in the BA codex to allow SR's to be used in DH and other SM armies? Does the current SM/DH or any other codex for that matter have an entry for SR's? No, that means right now they are available exclusively to BA's. I have no doubt that at some point in the future they will most likely be available to all SM's but then they will need either another codex or WD entry for them. Units that are exclusive to one codex or army will remain so until another codex or WD uses that same unit, the codecies do not have to be released at the same time.

Just look at Eldar Harlequins, which were exclusive to CWE for many years until the new DE book got released last year. Was there allready fluff justification to include them in the DE, yes. Could you use that CWE fluff to justify including Harlequins in a DE force before the new codex was released, absolutely not. I would have about as much right to include a Monoliths or Baneblades as I do to include SR's in a non-BA force.

Straw man is straw.

No one is saying that all flavors of SM can field SRs willy-nilly right now. We are saying that the codex entry for it does not establish it as a BA exclusive thing in the game world, thus leaving it wide open for GW to give it to other Marine armies in future codices.

Or a White Dwarf, as the reliable rumor sources have already stated.

Hendarion
06-01-2011, 14:20
Remind me, how much does a squad of necron warriors cost?
Not enough to compare them with anything like a flying land raider with a bunch of laser-cannons. *RollingEyes*

WildWeasel
06-01-2011, 14:53
Not enough to compare them with anything like a flying land raider with a bunch of laser-cannons. *RollingEyes*

Good thing there is no such thing outside of FW or Apoc.