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The Inevitable One
03-01-2011, 15:35
As Games Workshop has a realm dedicated towards the far future where there is only war, which is the most advanced force in terms of technology, logic, and reasoning?

Wicksy
03-01-2011, 15:43
Necrons or Eldar

Lord Cook
03-01-2011, 15:43
As Games Workshop has a realm dedicated towards the far future where there is only war, which is the most advanced force in terms of technology, logic, and reasoning?

Those are very different things. The Imperium has extremely advanced technology, but logic and reasoning isn't valued in the face of pure, blind faith.

Techologically, it would probably be either Eldar or Necrons.

This thread should also be in the Background section, by the way.

Korraz
03-01-2011, 16:01
Necrons, without a doubt. Not even Eldar come close. Necrons have FTL travel, without using the Warp!

PreacherBoyRoy
03-01-2011, 16:07
+1 to the above, and to add that their weakest gun can total a land raider. no other race comes close.

wyvirn
03-01-2011, 16:08
I'd say Necrons, then both types of Eldar, then Tau. Coincidently, none of them use the warp to travel. I think we may be on to something here...

Zweischneid
03-01-2011, 16:10
On a scale of civilatory evolution? A non-exhaustive approximation:



11. - Tyrandids (ca. 1.000.000 B.C.) - Primordial predators & prey; advancement through evolution.

10. - Space Marines (ca. 1.000 B.C.) - Antique/Classical Heroes; advancement through spartanical, militaristic subjugation of all life to the "way of the warrior"

09. - Space Wolves - (ca. 500 A.D.) - Early medieval Vikings/norsemen; advancement through beer, raiding and back-to-nature's basics savagery

08. - Dark Angels - (ca. 900 A.D.) - Dark medieval brooding and clerical secrecy; advancement through keeping things secret and away from the great unwashed.

07. - Black Templars - (ca. 1200 A.D.) - Crusades.. nuff said

06. - Inquisition - (ca. 1500 A.D.) - Inquisition.. nuff said. Change is coming... let's burn it.

05. - Eldar - (ca. 1700 A.D.) - Edo-Period Samurai.. our golden age is long past; advancement by ritualistically preserving the old ways and thinking (hoping?) long-term

04. - Tau Empires (ca. 1800 A.D.) - British Empire.. ; Advancement by letting the Indians/aliens keep their caste-system as long as they work for us and respect who's King.

03. - Imperial Guard (ca. 1910 to 1970 A.D.) - From mustard gas to Rambo.. we have it all: Advancement by sending 19year-olds into the meat-grinder.

02. - Orks (ca. 1980 A.D.) - We're Hooligans. Advancement by smashing things; we never loose, no matter what Maggy Thatcher sends against us.

01. - Chaos Daemons (ca. 2020 A.D.). - We're the internets come alive: humanities vilest wishes for all to see: Advancement by jumping the barrier from "virtual reflection" to become the real thing.. and going for our creators.

Tokamak
03-01-2011, 16:11
Tyranids, they harnessed their own evolution.

Of course, C'tan, being able to use the full power of a star which means they're the only race that has achieved a type-2 civilization on the kardashnev scale. However they're playable, they're not an army so I don't count them.

Shamana
03-01-2011, 16:32
Of course, C'tan, being able to use the full power of a star...

Didn't the Dark Eldar use the energy of a few stars to power up Commoragh as per the new codex? Don't get me wrong, it's still Necrons by far at the top, but eldar can pull off some crazy tricks of their own, even in their current state.

Tokamak
03-01-2011, 16:35
Oh right that's two more Type-2's then.

jt.glass
03-01-2011, 16:52
I'd say Necrons, then both types of Eldar, then Tau. Coincidently, none of them use the warp to travel. I think we may be on to something here...Tau? Seriously? They are so far behind the Imperium tech-wise it is just not funny!

They are, however, a bit smarter about how they use the tech they do have.

Also, they do use the warp. They just aren't as good at it!


Of course, C'tan, being able to use the full power of a star which means they're the only race that has achieved a type-2 civilization on the kardashnev scale. However they're playable, they're not an army so I don't count them.Erm, I don't think the Kardashev scale works that way. Virtually all of the civs in 40k harness more than the power output of a star; you don't have to get it all from one star (or from stars at all), it is just the number of watts that matters.


jt.

Hendarion
03-01-2011, 16:55
On a scale of civilatory evolution? A non-exhaustive approximation:
(...)
05. - Eldar - (ca. 1700 A.D.) - Edo-Period Samurai.. our golden age is long past; advancement by ritualistically preserving the old ways and thinking (hoping?) long-term
Actually mentally they are post-apocalyptic... and... apocalypse did in fact really happen to them.

Bestaltan
03-01-2011, 17:23
Tau? Seriously? They are so far behind the Imperium tech-wise it is just not funny!


My T'au plasma weapons don't cause a wound when I roll a one.

In terms of technology.......Tyranids. A race that is in such control of its evolutionary advancement that it can evolve bioweapons faster than the races of the 40k universe can technologically advance theirs.

In terms of logic and reason......T'au. A race whose philosophical ideology is to NOT kill everyone in the 41st millenium? That sets them head and shoulders over everyone else.

jt.glass
03-01-2011, 17:52
My T'au plasma weapons don't cause a wound when I roll a one....because they are more concerned about the lives of their troops, so keep the power levels down. Not because they are technologically superior.


jt.

Melchor
03-01-2011, 18:03
Orks...
Their technology comes instinctively, they're made for war and they's above reasoning the way the other races do.

Bestaltan
03-01-2011, 18:13
...because they are more concerned about the lives of their troops, so keep the power levels down. Not because they are technologically superior.


I would direct you to IA3 for a GREAT story about how the T'au and Imperium match up. While I won't say that the T'au are technologically superior, they are definitely the technological equals of the Imperium.

MarcoSkoll
03-01-2011, 18:22
Tau? Seriously? They are so far behind the Imperium tech-wise it is just not funny!
The Imperium may use better tech at times, but it's all ancient machines they barely understand and can't even hope to reproduce. Many machines that break will never be repaired, and thus they are heading backwards in respect to the level of technology actually available to them.

In contrast, the Tau understand all of their technology, are advancing it and their hi-tech stuff is far more plentiful (their standard armament for their infantry makes a bolter - special issue for the Imperium - look wimpy in comparison).
They are limited by their lack of psykers and insensitivity to the warp, so they don't have much in the way of warp technology, but they still have far greater technological understanding. They don't have a big backlog of ancient tech, but that's not really the Imperium's technology - it's all from before.

Lord Cook
03-01-2011, 18:28
Whether or not the Imperium understands its technology is irrelevent. The Imperium is considerably more technologically advanced than the Tau. It's true that only a tiny handful of humans actually appreciate how it works, and even those are blinded by superstition and dogma, but that doesn't make the equipment itself less advanced.

The real difference is that the Imperium treats it's best technology as ancient relics that need to be preserved, and are not lightly committed to active war zones. By comparison the Tau will happily design some new fancy gadget and get it out to the front lines quickly, and then keep improving on it.

Shnerg
03-01-2011, 18:30
Technology: Tau. They have the best standard infantry gun.
Logic: Eldar. They are probably the most intellectual of all races.
Reasoning: Tau. They fight for the greater good, not for the sake of war like everyone else.

Sparowl
03-01-2011, 18:47
Technology still has to go to Necrons as most advanced.

No one else has zero point powered, self rebuilding nano-tech, where the standard infantry weapon can go through the most heavily armored vehicles of the 41st millenium.

MarcoSkoll
03-01-2011, 19:00
Whether or not the Imperium understands its technology is irrelevent.
If you don't understand your technology, it's not really your technology. You might be in possession of the actual machinery, but you are not in possession of the technology behind it.

Technology is about creating and understanding, not just using.

doc21
03-01-2011, 19:00
Dark Eldar imho - as the new codex says 'In matters of war the Dark Eldar are artisans supreme, their technology refined to such a point that it may as well be magical'

Dave

Korraz
03-01-2011, 19:06
That's just a reference to the old "Any sufficiently advanced technology might be considered magic."

Inquisitor_Tolheim
03-01-2011, 19:07
Necrons win, no contest.

Per the Imperium vs Tau Debate: Think of it this way, the Imperium is a famous genius who is so old he has developed alzheimers. The Tau are a young inventor with a quick mind and lots of new stuff to work with. While the Imperium has more resources and technology to work with, bringing it properly to bear is difficult and their technological prowess declines with each passing year.

Shamana
03-01-2011, 19:13
Dark Eldar imho - as the new codex says 'In matters of war the Dark Eldar are artisans supreme, their technology refined to such a point that it may as well be magical'

As Korraz said, that's probably a shout-out to the quote about technology becoming indistinguishable from magic. There's also the matter that to the Imperium, all technology is magical - iirc one of the Cain books had an officer commenting on the Tau technosorcery. The DE might have as much technological know-how as the craftworlders, possibly more - depending on how much each has managed to scavenge from their pre-fall empire. I believe it was mentioned somewhere that the eldar also don't have nearly the technological knowledge their ancestors had, as well as the industrial base to put it to practice, so in a sense their mentality may be somewhat close to that of the Imperium.

Lord Cook
03-01-2011, 19:14
If you don't understand your technology, it's not really your technology. You might be in possession of the actual machinery, but you are not in possession of the technology behind it.

By that same logic, the computer you are currently using to type your replies is not human technology, because the vast majority of the human race has no idea how your computer works. If you start to rate technology upon the level to which it is understood, you're on a very slippery slope. Do you understand the biology behind penicillin? Do you understand the atomic physics behind a nuclear warhead? Can you explain, without reference to other sources, the nature of human brainwaves? No? Neither can I. It's all still human technology. The only difference between us and the Imperium is that we believe we don't understand technological machinery and technology. The citizens of the Imperium believe they don't understand theology.

MarcoSkoll
03-01-2011, 19:46
By that same logic, the computer you are currently using to type your replies is not human technology, because the vast majority of the human race has no idea how your computer works.
That's a strawman, I'm afraid. I'm not talking about each individual of the species having to understand, but the species as a whole.

Modern humans as a whole understand the computer, they can replicate it. If we wanted to build a brand new computer tomorrow, it could be done (and indeed will be).

But there is much the Imperium uses that they do not understand - things that are not understood even to the combined totality of the Adeptus Mechanicus. There are many things which they could not, were they tasked to, produce a completely new copy of. Hence, they own the machinery, but not the technology behind it.

Sparowl
03-01-2011, 19:51
By that same logic, the computer you are currently using to type your replies is not human technology, because the vast majority of the human race has no idea how your computer works. If you start to rate technology upon the level to which it is understood, you're on a very slippery slope. Do you understand the biology behind penicillin? Do you understand the atomic physics behind a nuclear warhead? Can you explain, without reference to other sources, the nature of human brainwaves? No? Neither can I. It's all still human technology. The only difference between us and the Imperium is that we believe we don't understand technological machinery and technology. The citizens of the Imperium believe they don't understand theology.

Due to a ridiculous amount of time in college and changing majors, I actually do understand:

How my laptop works
How penicillin affects human biology
How a nuclear warhead works, and the atomic physics behind it (btw, I applaud you for correctly using "atomic physics", instead of "Nuclear physics", which it seems everyone messes up.)

I don't understand brain chemistry, though.

That being said, I understand your point. However, the difference here is the most people would understand the basis of our technology. I could fairly easily explain the expanding gas principles of firearm technology, or how penicillin works. If someone was willing to sit with me for awhile, I could probably explain to them how fission reactions works.

To the average Imperial citizen, that would all be magic and spirits and wooky-spooky-ness. I would imagine that the average education level of the imperium is substantial lower then that of the average 1st world country in our era.

BTW, no, I could not explain how a laptop works to someone in anything but the most opaque terms. That **** is actually magic, as far as I'm concerned, and I'm not only a certified network engineer, but I've been repairing them for over a decade. Modern computers are downright weird.

Lowmans
03-01-2011, 20:05
IMHO the Necrons most likely are 'most advanced'

On the Imperium issue I'd suggest that the Fabricator General may very well understand (couched in religious terms) and be able to replicate almost all technology.

The whole knowledge is power issue and religious stratification mean that, by design, understanding is limited to the elite.

Again IMHO the feats of imperium technology exceed those of the tau (this is self-evident, really). Furthermore those feats are 'understood' if only by a very few.

Zweischneid
03-01-2011, 20:07
Do you understand the atomic physics behind a nuclear warhead?

Actually, nuclear warheads, being a (comparatively) high end weapon technology are a good example in point.

A handful of countries on this planet possess the technology (US, UK, France, Russia, India, etc..., most likely Isreal though they "offically" don't).

Other countries do not possess the technology, and are by range of treaties and agreements barred from striving for it (and a few do it anyhow).

However all but perhaps the most destitute African states could strap a warhead to a rocket and use it if they'd stumble across the ready-made weapon as such (a subject surprisingly common in B-range Hollywood movies, especially those from the 1980s).

In this analogy, the 40K Imperium of Man wouldn't have the technology in the sense the US or the UK has the technology for nuclear warheads (even though their ordinary citizens dont, on an individual basis). But they do have a huge, if aging supply of warheads stowed away somewhere which they worship religiously as well as use with enthusiastic zeal against anyone that appears unpalatable to them for one reason or another :evilgrin:

MarcoSkoll
03-01-2011, 20:14
I'd suggest that the Fabricator General may very well understand and be able to replicate almost all technology.
<SNIP>
Furthermore those feats are 'understood' if only by a very few.
It is set out in the background that much of what the Imperium uses is not understood and irreplicable, even to the most ancient and learned Tech-Magi.

They may be able to produce crude imitations of some of these devices, but they'll only work when there's a Q in the month and in many cases, even that is impossible.

TheRatsInTheWalls
03-01-2011, 20:15
A number of people have mentioned that the tau are the only race to go to war for some reason besides going to war. This really isn't all that accurate. The tau are trying to expand their empire, which is nearly the same thing, while the eldar basically only fight to survive (Biel-Tan and Saim-Hann aside). beyond that, many of the other races have explanations for their wars which are similar to the Tau's on the scale of useful to pointless war.


Orks...
Their technology comes instinctively, they're made for war and they's above reasoning the way the other races do.

Ork technology works because the orks think it should but most of their tech wouldn't work for anyone else. They're the most psychically potent race in the galaxy so their crazy notions about red paint making things faster apply.

Bestaltan
03-01-2011, 20:20
Again IMHO the feats of imperium technology exceed those of the tau (this is self-evident, really).

This is the third time now I've seen this stated, with no example. What's one technological advancement the Imperium has made that the T'au cannot do?

Korraz
03-01-2011, 20:33
Teleportation springs to my mind.

Lowmans
03-01-2011, 20:34
I agree that the Imperium broadly may be unable to replicate some existing technology in a meaningful fashion and I agree that, as a whole technological advancement is backward for them!
However, in background terms I don't think there's anything excluding the statement that the very elite of Mars (particularly) and the major forgeworlds may well understand the vast majority of the technology they have - it's simply not in their interest or dogma to share or even display this!

Re: Tau v Imperial tech

A few examples of Imperial tech exceeding Tau

Warp Travel
Psychic Engineering
Genetic Engineering
Shield Technology
MIUs
Personal armour
Possibly power generation
Possibly AI (though proscribed)

ColShaw
03-01-2011, 20:38
This is the third time now I've seen this stated, with no example. What's one technological advancement the Imperium has made that the T'au cannot do?

Teleportation
Warp Travel
Forcefields (Refractor Fields, Void Shields)
Virus Bombs

Bestaltan
03-01-2011, 20:59
Warp travel by humanity is possible not through just technology, but through mutation and psychic ability. The Navigators are the only ones able to navigate fleets through the warp, made possible only by the psychic pulses of the Astronomican.

T'au use warp space for travel, but only in short bursts......Not because their technology is inferior, but because they have almost no psychic presence.

As for forcefields.......Really? Shield drones and shield generators are used throughout the codex. Even lowly little fire warrior squads can come equipped with shield drones.

T'au own the Imperium in AI. Heck, they even code in a survival instinct into their drones.

Virus bombs don't exist mainly due to T'au philosophy. They usually (key word: usually) aren't in the business of eradicating an entire planet, just those beings that disagree with them. But if you're still not convinced, go look at the strategem "darkstar warhead" for the T'au in the Apocalypse Reload book. Sounds very virus-bomb-like to me.

As far as personal armor goes......I again point back to IA3. The average fire warrior has far more advanced personal armor than the average guardsman. Space Marine power armor? Meet prototype XV22 battlesuit. As much protection AND a built-in shield generator.

As for teleportation......The issue there is again, teleportation occurs through warp space, which the T'au (very wisely) tend to steer clear of. Also, teleportation of troops into the thick of fighting (which is pretty basic Imperial strategy) flies in the face of every combat doctrine the T'au hold onto.

Again, each race has different technologies, but neither is inferior to the other.

ChaosTicket
03-01-2011, 21:14
Necrons and eldar are the highest in technology, but at the same time they have different technologies, like Necrons cant use warp-based tech.

Tau have innovation but their own lack of numbers and weak base race means its largely wasted. If they gave all their weapons, armor, and tanks to the Kroot they might actually do something.

MarcoSkoll
03-01-2011, 21:29
Shield Technology, MIUs, Personal armour, AI
1) See "Shield Generator" and "Shield Drone".
2) Neural links are an integral part of a Battlesuit.
3) Battlesuits. At least as tough as power armour.
4) Any AI technology the Imperium once had is long since gone. The knowledge has been lost, and what hasn't been lost has been destroyed. And even if we take Servitors to be a remnant of that, a Tau drone is way ahead of a servitor (which is not much more than an automaton really).

Next... their limited warp technologies is because they have no psykers and find it almost impossible to monitor the warp. That they haven't yet got very far with it is no slight to their abilities.
Still, they do have warp travel - more limited in range than Imperial warp travel, but a good deal safer.


Genetic Engineering
I have no counter example prepared, but given that modern humans are performing (crude) genetic engineering, it seems highly unlikely that the Tau have no abilities in the area.

Bestaltan
03-01-2011, 21:37
Actually, as far as genetic engineering goes......The T'au "race" is, in essence, four different subspecies (or potentially species in their own right, as no mention has ever been made to my knowledge of mating across castes). There really is no need for the T'au to engage in genetic engineering, as they have all the genetic diversity they need in the four castes.

havoc626
03-01-2011, 21:41
But as a point, the only reason necrons don't have warp-based technology is because they no longer require it as they have surpassed that stage of technological evolution.

Also, I agree with Bestaltan on the point of the Tau and Virus bombs. It isn't a question of if they possess the technology, but rather if they would use the technology. Heck, even in medieval times, you had biological warfare where siege armies would use diseased corpses as ammunition to send over the walls and infect the population within. Not all that different from a virus bomb, other than the scale and what pathogen is used.

I'd say that the most advanced would be between Necrons and Tyranids. Necrons because they are so technologically advanced that they no longer require biological evolution, and Tyranids because of the opposite, being so biologically advanced that they don't require technology.

Back to the OP, however, the race I would say most fits that description would be Eldar, although they don't fit it by being the most accurate in all of the description, overall they would.

PS, Countries that are allowed Nuclear bombs due to their position within the UN are the US, UK, France, Russia and China. Countries that are known to have the Nuke are India and Pakastan (India is allowed the nuke because Pakastan has it, not exactly sure why Pakastan is allowed on in the first place, but whatever). Countries that are believed to have the Nuke are Israel and North Korea (probably more out there, but thy are smart enough not to make it an obvious thing).

Korraz
03-01-2011, 21:52
Okay, Bestaltan.

"The Leman Russ."
"The Lasgun."

The performance, reliability and cost-efficience is unreached by the Tau.

The Tau are smalltime. They have reached an impressive height, but compared to imperial technology most of their stuff is simply not as effective and reliable as the imperial stuff*. The whole "lost technology" business is always exaggerated. That's the way of 40k, exaggerate everything. It's true that a lot of stuff is mystified, but so is todays. In 40k there is just a bit more mystic mumbojumbo mixed in.

*)I am a Tau player myself and very fond of them.

Lord Cook
03-01-2011, 22:02
That's a strawman, I'm afraid...

Modern humans as a whole understand the computer, they can replicate it. If we wanted to build a brand new computer tomorrow, it could be done (and indeed will be).

But there is much the Imperium uses that they do not understand - things that are not understood even to the combined totality of the Adeptus Mechanicus.

Except that's not widely supported at all. The overwhelming majority of Imperial technology can be reproduced. Plasma technology, teleportation, artificer armour, starships, genetic engineering, stasis fields, life-extending drugs, the list goes on. In fact I can barely think of anything* that physically cannot be reproduced at all. Even the Leman Russ Vanquisher, whose only production Forgeworld was devoured by the Tyranids, must still have master-copy plans stored on Mars, because it's stated as fact that Mars keeps backup copies of every STC ever discovered.

Sure, the Imperium may take twenty years and countless ritual prayer meetings to replicate technology that modern (real life) humanity could have knocked up in a factory in twenty minutes, but that's just degrees of ease of construction and maintenance.

*Besides maybe the Golden Throne and Primarchs.


Warp travel by humanity is possible not through just technology, but through mutation and psychic ability. The Navigators are the only ones able to navigate fleets through the warp, made possible only by the psychic pulses of the Astronomican.

Warp travel is possible without the Astronomican. You just can't navigate during extended jumps.


As for forcefields.......Really? Shield drones and shield generators are used throughout the codex. Even lowly little fire warrior squads can come equipped with shield drones.

As far as personal armor goes......I again point back to IA3. The average fire warrior has far more advanced personal armor than the average guardsman. Space Marine power armor? Meet prototype XV22 battlesuit. As much protection AND a built-in shield generator.

My T'au plasma weapons don't cause a wound when I roll a one.

Those are rulebook examples taken from inside the game. Quoting that as evidence is like saying that you only need four Imperial Guardsman with lasguns to match a Space Marine because they both cost 16 points.

Just because the Adeptus Mechanicus doesn't equip Space Marines with shields doesn't mean they would be incapable of doing so if it was a practical undertaking.


T'au own the Imperium in AI. Heck, they even code in a survival instinct into their drones.

But the Imperium has strictly forbidden the production of AI. Of course they're not going to be any good at it. Real life humanity is very poor at human cloning, not because humanity is technologically backward, but because of unrelated moral issues it chooses not to follow that line of research.


As for teleportation......The issue there is again, teleportation occurs through warp space, which the T'au (very wisely) tend to steer clear of.

They have the luxury of doing so. They have a small empire where long distance intergalactic travel is not required. And not being capable of harnessing warp space for biological reasons doesn't suddenly mean that human teleportation technology "doesn't count" when it comes to judging the relative merits of human and Tau science.

EDIT:

There really is no need for the T'au to engage in genetic engineering, as they have all the genetic diversity they need in the four castes.

As above, does this matter? Humanity does have a need to do this kind of engineering, and they have the technology to do so. Isn't that what we're talking about?

MarcoSkoll
03-01-2011, 22:09
The performance, reliability and cost-efficience is unreached by the Tau.
If the Tau cannot reproduce the principles of the Leman Russ (take internal combustion engine, bolt lots of armour and a big gun to it), then I wonder how they got to hover tanks and forcefields.
If they're not using something similar, it's not because they can't.

Similar things could be said of the lasgun. Even if they didn't have the tech before they met the Imperium (which seems unlikely), it should have been well within their ability to reverse engineer. As they haven't copied it, it's more likely to be because they don't want/need to than they can't.


That's the way of 40k, exaggerate everything.
Not quite. It's "Take basic premise, exaggerate, run with what you get".

Bestaltan
03-01-2011, 22:20
Those are rulebook examples taken from inside the game.

Um, there really is no fluff without the rulebooks. But aside from that, you seemed to be suggesting that T'au technology is just different, not superior or inferior (which has been my position all along). Am I right or off?

@Korraz--Um, IA3 would tend to disagree with you. The ONLY Leman Russ variant during the Taros campaign that stood a chance against the Hammerhead was the vanquisher. The book clearly states that the T'au had a clear advantage in tank battles due to ye olde railgun.

As far as the lasgun statement goes.......Pulse rifles pack more small arms firepower, greater range, and are just as reliable and cost effective (which is why every fire warrior carries a variant). Again, in IA3, guardsmen are clearly outmatched each time they go up against fire warrior cadres in close quarter firefights.

samiens
03-01-2011, 22:34
Seriously? The Tau are, from a military level at least, more technologically advanced then the Imperium

The Tau build mock ups of Imperial Tanks for their training (story in the first Tau codex)- don't see many mock Hammerheads in the Imperium. (or railguins for that matter)

The Tau version of power armour comes with a jet pack, greater strength and mounts multiple weapons (noting that they can create iridium armour and add a shield to this to give greater personal protection than TDA whilst still maintaining much of a jet pack units mobility).

The manta missile destroyer is the Tau equivalent to a titan (but is obviously very different) and is also capable of space flight.

We have no evidence to prove to what extent Tau can manipulate genetics (although again from the first Tau codex they do understand genetics because they analyse the kroots evolutionary abilities).

Final piece of evidence- the Tau entice humans over with better technology for things like hydration plants.

Even better Tau tech is constantly improving and they can reproduce all their high end tech- something that is beyond the Imperium.

As mentioned necrons and eldar (all types) are more technologically advanced again

jt.glass
03-01-2011, 22:59
But there is much the Imperium uses that they do not understand - things that are not understood even to the combined totality of the Adeptus Mechanicus. There are many things which they could not, were they tasked to, produce a completely new copy of.Exactly how much they understand is left rather vague, but is certainly never stated to be as lacking as is commonly assumed in the Internet!

In any case, the key information they need is there, even where it is wrapped up in mumbo-jumbo. They most certainly can build


Warp travel by humanity is possible not through just technology, but through mutation and psychic ability. The Navigators are the only ones able to navigate fleets through the warp, made possible only by the psychic pulses of the Astronomican.The astronomicon is partly technological...although I'll give you that as one they couldn't reproduce.

However, Gellar Fields, they can. The Tau which is why they only skim the surface of the warp rather than submerging in it. Even without the Astronomicon and Navigators, Gellar Fields allow massively greater distances to be travelled.


Virus bombs don't exist mainly due to T'au philosophy. They usually (key word: usually) aren't in the business of eradicating an entire planet, just those beings that disagree with them. But if you're still not convinced, go look at the strategem "darkstar warhead" for the T'au in the Apocalypse Reload book. Sounds very virus-bomb-like to me.Do you know what the Imperial Lifeeater Virus does? It is on a whole other scale from the Darkstar warhead.


As far as personal armor goes......I again point back to IA3. The average fire warrior has far more advanced personal armor than the average guardsman. Space Marine power armor? Meet prototype XV22 battlesuit. As much protection AND a built-in shield generator.So you put a prototype up against a 10 millenium old workhorse, and that somehow helps your argument? :confused:

And BTW, XV22, meet Terminator Armour, Dreadnoughts, Titans...


As for teleportation......The issue there is again, teleportation occurs through warp space, which the T'au (very wisely) tend to steer clear of.Cobblers. They use warp space exactly as much as their technology allows. See above, re Gellar fields.


Also, teleportation of troops into the thick of fighting (which is pretty basic Imperial strategy) flies in the face of every combat doctrine the T'au hold onto.Er, their doctrine is based on their capabilities, not the other way around. If they were capable of teleportation, they soon come up with damn fine docrines for their use!


Necrons and eldar are the highest in technology, but at the same time they have different technologies, like Necrons cant use warp-based tech.

Tau have innovation but their own lack of numbers and weak base race means its largely wasted. If they gave all their weapons, armor, and tanks to the Kroot they might actually do something.


4) Any AI technology the Imperium once had is long since gone. The knowledge has been lost, and what hasn't been lost has been destroyed. And even if we take Servitors to be a remnant of that, a Tau drone is way ahead of a servitor (which is not much more than an automaton really).Nonsense. Their AI are required by dogma to have a biological component, but the most assuredly have AI. You even mention an example yourself: servitors. Which can be much smarter than Tau drones. Another example is the imprinted personalities of titans!

They're not a Culture-level by any means, but they outclass the Tau, here as in most other things!


Next... their limited warp technologies is because they have no psykersIt doesn't matter why they do not have the technology, they still don't...and the IoM does.


@Korraz--Um, IA3 would tend to disagree with you. The ONLY Leman Russ variant during the Taros campaign that stood a chance against the Hammerhead was the vanquisher. The book clearly states that the T'au had a clear advantage in tank battles due to ye olde railgun.Korraz's point was durability...there are Imperial tanks still in service that are older then the Tau species.


As far as the lasgun statement goes.......Pulse rifles pack more small arms firepower, greater range, and are just as reliable and cost effective (which is why every fire warrior carries a variant). Again, in IA3, guardsmen are clearly outmatched each time they go up against fire warrior cadres in close quarter firefights.Evidence that they are as cost effective, given that there are several orders of magnitude more Guardsmen to supply with weapons than there are Tau total!


jt.

Bestaltan
03-01-2011, 23:54
I'm bowing out. Not because you're right, but because it just dawned on me that I spent the good portion of an afternoon arguing over make believe fluff set in a make believe universe. :rolleyes:

But I will leave with this........Yes, I will put a prototype against a 10,000 year workhorse. Prototype means technology that is evolving and advancing (and therefore superior), 10,000 year old means technology that is stagnate and dead.

After all, do we still use wooden bows to light fires? After all, that is a 10,000 year old workhorse.

Korraz
04-01-2011, 00:04
Imperial Tech is adavancing. Slowly, but once you reached certain heights, it's not easy to go farther.
Just sayin'. The Tau have their pinnacle yet before them.

H.LaFever
04-01-2011, 00:46
Ummm....
maybe its because i got into 40k back in 1987, but Ive always thought it was cannon that the most intellegent / advanced / whatever race was the orange monkeys, the Jorelco, or however it was that you spelled it.
many of the tech today that has been lost in the 40k fluff belonged to them.

and arent the c'tan also a 'race'?

they are a mighty and playable race, if you want to use later fluff.
even though you can only field one at a time, they are still a fieldable race.... just saying

Sgt John Keel
04-01-2011, 00:46
The Imperium may use better tech at times, but it's all ancient machines they barely understand and can't even hope to reproduce. Many machines that break will never be repaired, and thus they are heading backwards in respect to the level of technology actually available to them.

I believe this is untrue. While much of Imperial technology are artefacts of a lost age, those cannot practically make up the bulk of the armed forces as over the millennia attrition would have whittled away the reserves (if any!) to unsustainable and impractical levels.

Also, the Adeptus Mechanicus may be orthodox in the extreme, but they certainly aren't adamant about non-STC developments. There are enough examples, I think, of new technological adoptions to believe that the AdMech is far more interested in keeping their power base than being theologically pure.

Anyway, the point I wanted to make is that we as well, in this enlightened scientific age, have 'lost' technology, the usual examples being Greek fire and Damascus steel. Many traditional methods of artifice are in danger of being forgotten. (I believe that we also do not currently have the manufacturing base to construct Saturn V rockets, for example.) This obviously doesn't mean we don't have the capacity to build or make something better.

MarcoSkoll
04-01-2011, 01:00
In fact I can barely think of anything* that physically cannot be reproduced at all.
Reaver Titans spring to mind. Desolator battleships (although all of them fallen to Chaos) are also impossible for the AdMech to produce again. The metal working skills that produced the swords of Clan Esw Sweydyr. Also, even before the Heresy, their attempts to reproduce the mental implants given to Angron (so that they could be given to the rest of the World Eaters) ranged from catastrophic to poor. And as you said, the Golden Throne and Primarchs.

There are more, but frankly, I can't be bothered. They'll evidently just be ignored like the fact that Imperium is suffering an age where knowledge is lost but never regained has been a theme of 40k since Rogue Trader. (And which GW seem to be launching a war of attrition on, slowly softening all the limits of Imperial technology.)

Anyway, there's probably a lot more than we ever hear of - if something is truly irreplaceable, why risk using it except in the most incredibly dire need?


Nonsense. Their AI are required by dogma to have a biological component, but the most assuredly have AI.
Can it really be AI when it has a biological component? If a rat brain is an integral part of an AI you have made, then it would be perfectly valid to argue that it's an organic intelligence, not an artificial one.


You even mention an example yourself: servitors. Which can be much smarter than Tau drones.
Servitors are automatons, programmed to do one task only (well, multitasking servitors do exist, but they're rare). They do not show innovation, curiosity, any sign of true intelligence.

On the other hand, drones are described as having the intelligence of a pterasquirrel. And if that's anything like a regular squirrel, that actually means they're pretty cunning.


Another example is the imprinted personalities of titans!
That's just another case of a machine spirit (which in the cases of those which actually show something approaching decision making, include organic parts). Titans even rely on servitors as part of the gun control systems.


Evidence that they are as cost effective, given that there are several orders of magnitude more Guardsmen to supply with weapons than there are Tau total!
Doesn't count. There are a lot more worlds to supply those guardsmen with those weapons.


Anyway, the point I wanted to make is that we as well, in this enlightened scientific age, have 'lost' technology, the usual examples being Greek fire and Damascus steel.
There are many myths of "lost technology", but the truth is, while in many of these cases, we do not know the original methods (with any certainty, at least), we are capable of closely reproducing the result.

And in some cases, there is no truth in it at all. It's a common myth, for example, that the recipe for Coade stone has been lost - it has not.

ForgottenLore
04-01-2011, 02:05
I have seen the Tau vs Imp tech argument crop up several times on this board now and when you sift through everyone's rhetoric it always boils down to whether or not the highest echelons of the Adeptus Mechanicus retain enough knowledge of high technology to be said to "have" that level of tech.

One camp says that the adepts of Mars do, in fact, understand the bulk of imperial technology.
The other camp says no, the basics of imperial tech have been lost and the Mechanicus is simply putting pieces together by rote with no real understanding.

As near as I can tell there is not enough evidence to say either way.

My own personal opinion is that the tau are much more high tech than the Imperium, because that is how they are described. The Tau are described as high tech while the IoM is described as surviving on ancient machines whose workings are no longer understood.

A side point that frequently comes into play in these arguments, that I have never seen anyone mention, is the difference between possessing technology and possessing the infrastructure to use it. Those are very different.

Bergen Beerbelly
04-01-2011, 02:20
Squats have the best tech. They just keep it all to themselves :D

Hellebore
04-01-2011, 02:21
Reaver Titans spring to mind. Desolator battleships (although all of them fallen to Chaos) are also impossible for the AdMech to produce again. The metal working skills that produced the swords of Clan Esw Sweydyr. Also, even before the Heresy, their attempts to reproduce the mental implants given to Angron (so that they could be given to the rest of the World Eaters) ranged from catastrophic to poor. And as you said, the Golden Throne and Primarchs.

There are more, but frankly, I can't be bothered. They'll evidently just be ignored like the fact that Imperium is suffering an age where knowledge is lost but never regained has been a theme of 40k since Rogue Trader. (And which GW seem to be launching a war of attrition on, slowly softening all the limits of Imperial technology.)


Yes there are more, but are there ENOUGH to claim the imperium cannot recreate the majority of their technology? I don't think so. The things they can't replicate are (self evidently) the rare things they don't use or need.

Plasma reactors, void shields, lance batteries, force field generators the size of a necklace. These are all things that are common in the imperium and also easily manufactured.

The tau couldn't make their own lance batteries and had to have the Demiurg give them the secret of ion technology in order to mount ANY of them on their space ships (see the Armada rulebook).

It took 11 years for a lunar class cruiser to be manufactured in orbit around a feral world (pg 110 BFG rulebook) where all the raw materials were provided as offerings by the populace to the skygods.

A lunar class cruiser is several kilometres in length and possesses both lance and weapon batteries. The weapons batteries consist of various weaponry described as 'plasma projectors, laser cannons, missile launchers, rail guns, fusion beamers and graviton pulsars' (BFG pg20). It possesses anti bomber turrets that use plasma blastguns, vulcan megabolters and other assorted over sized weapons to take down enemy bombers (themselves as large as passenger jets). It has a warp engine, gellar fields and void shields so large they extend for hundreds of kilometres around the ship.

It has anti gravity throughout maintaining a planetary gravity for the crew.

This was manufactured from raw components in a Feral World's orbit. Therefore, the components are not only reproducible, but easily so and from unrefined, primitively mined ores.



Can it really be AI when it has a biological component? If a rat brain is an integral part of an AI you have made, then it would be perfectly valid to argue that it's an organic intelligence, not an artificial one.

Servitors are automatons, programmed to do one task and one task only. They do not show innovation, curiosity, any sign of true intelligence.


If you are going to use arbitrary definitions like 'organic' to delineate between things then sure. But 'organic' is simply a term used to refer to chemicals that are generally all hydrocarbons. That's it. Therefore a computer made from plastics is an 'organic' computer. An AI is an artificially constructed intelligence, what its components are made from isn't particularly relevant to its function.

The question is, are they simply using an animal's natural programming? Servitors suggest not. They rewrite their brains to perform functions they normally couldn't or weren't trained to do. They use the brain as storage and programme it - a pretty sophisticated process.

They also used artificially constructed nerves to create bio chips to build 'machine spirits' bypassing the need for a pre-existing brain. The titan 'spirits' are described as being modelled on animals, not that they use animal brains or in fact have organic components at all.



On the other hand, drones are described as having the intelligence of a pterasquirrel. And if that's anything like a regular squirrel, that actually means they're pretty cunning.


And have to bury nuts, flee from danger and so on? Having the intelligence of something like that doesn't mean it's the same and it doesn't mean you can pick and choose which of a squirrel's behaviours it get's to be the same as and which it doesn't. Intelligence means they have the same capacities and limitations as those creatures.



The Imperium has lost much of its knowledge behind ritual and dogma. But they can still reproduce the important parts of their technology and can even innovate given enough time.

The Imperium has a far wider Bell curve of technology. They can run the gamut from 1-sticks and stones to 10-gravity manipulation and warp weapons. The Tau sit in a narrower part of the that curve, maybe 6-8. Their average tech level is higher than the average imperial citizens' (by quite a bit) but they do not have the upper reaches of technology that the Imperium can get to and can still reproduce.



Imperial ship technology is far more sophisticated, even if there are components in some that rely on slave labour rather than mechanical.

The admech must know how their technology works to some degree if they can repair it (which is often what they do) and must be able to fabricate the components that make the technology up to do so. To run technology you don't need to know how it works, but to fix and replace components you most certainly do.

EDIT: Bergen wins on account of squats.

Hellebore

RobPro
04-01-2011, 03:02
Why is it being argued that Tau have more advanced tech than the Necrons? I'm a little confused here.

MarcoSkoll
04-01-2011, 03:07
If you are going to use arbitrary definitions like 'organic' to delineate between things then sure.
Fine then. Replace "organic" with "biological" if you're going to insist on interpreting it with that definition of "organic".

My point about servitors not actually demonstrating anything which qualifies as intelligence still remains. For example, would you call a robot arm in a car factory intelligent? A servitor is about the same level, really.
Tau AIs on the other hand, learn and can make improved decisions based on what they have learnt.


And have to bury nuts, flee from danger and so on?
Don't be flippant, you know what is meant by it.


The admech must know how their technology works to some degree if they can repair it (which is often what they do) and must be able to fabricate the components that make the technology up to do so.
Give me a recipe and I can make a cake. But just following instructions does not mean you know what each stage does and why you do it.

I don't understand what would happen if I were to use granary flour instead of self-raising in any more depth than it would be a complete mess.


Why is it being argued that Tau have more advanced tech than the Necrons?
It's not. This is about Tau vs. Imperial tech.

ForgottenLore
04-01-2011, 03:33
There can be a difference between being able to manufacture something and truly understanding how it works.

The entire Standard Template Construct system is a technobabble gimmick created explicitly to explain how the Imperium can build things without understanding the science or technology behind them.

The question isn't really whether the Imperium is able to build teleporters and the like, it is whether the adepts of Mars (or anyone else) could do so with no access to STCs.

If all their advanced technology is derived solely from the crutch of STC designs then, while it might be argued that they have access to tech equivalent to the Tau, it can't really be said that the Imperium as a social/political entity or the human race as a species truly possesses the technology.

Shamana
04-01-2011, 09:36
Imperial Tech is adavancing. Slowly...

Is it? I thought the "losing what knowledge they had" is a big theme regarding Imperial technology. Apart from finding new STC schemes, they aren't big on innovation. There are new TT units so GW can get more sells, but I think it's usually handwaved to "oh, they've always been around, these are just the stats/models so you can play them."

Dark Heresy and the assorted games contradict this somewhat, and iirc there was the explanation that a new-ish idea (or new application of old principles) could gain some acceptance with a LOT of politicking and some luck, but it's supposed to be quite rare, and probably not enough to offset the losses due to lost schemes. I'm not sure where the "Mars must have backups of every STC schematic" is from, though.

Edit: regarding the Jocaero - I think their technological knowledge was genetically imprinted on them, like it is for ork mekboyz and any kroot that gets to munch on the above. Lol, for some reason now I can't get the idea of kroot operating interspecies mortician services out of my head :D .

Korraz
04-01-2011, 10:11
It is. The Land Raider Ares is a quite new invention. Sure, not the best example, but after all, recombining IS inventing to some degree.

If we are going the way of the extincts, the Jokaero clearly take the cake and throw it a you. Maybe with some poo. They were, after all, designed to be the most advanced ;)

Aliarzathanil
04-01-2011, 10:38
First of, Necrons win.

Second, a list of things the Imperium can produce:

Lunar Class Cruisers (and therefore)
-Teleporters
-Plasma Batteries
-Artificial Grav
-Railguns
-Warp Drives
-Gellar Fields
-Railguns (ship batteries are usually rail or plasma)

Power Armour (therefore)
-MUI interfaces
-Small Atomic Powersources

Landspeeders and Servo Skulls (therefore)
Antigrav units

The Hellgun and Lascannon
The Imperium can produce more advanced weapons for front line troops when it's giving them to more highly trained soldiers. The Railgun is nice, but the Lascannon is man-portable and nearly as effective and arguably just as advanced. The Imperium's grasp of laser technology is pretty impressive.

Marines
-This is a feat the Tau haven't come close to. Saying they don't need genetic modification is a cop out. Wouldn't they benefit from being tougher, smarter, faster, stronger? Is Intuitive 2 good enough? Even the servitor is a breathtakingly complex creation. The understanding of both computers and biology required is immense.

As for Crisis suits, Terminator armour is arguably more advanced. It offers more protection in a much smaller package. It's construction is described as painstaking not impossible.

As to understanding technology, if that's the realm of the earth caste (the Tau's own little Priesthood of Mars) is it fair to say that ALL Tau understand their tech?


Still, it's Necons by a mile.

TheLaughingGod
04-01-2011, 11:17
It's actually the Eldar.
It doesn't really matter that they use the Warp to do stuff, they still do it better than the Necrons.

They basically have the technology to create other dimensions or tear the fabric of space apart, harness stars, control gravity, they've mastery over light, every single piece of technology they use is receptive to their thoughts, they've created immortal bodies that are far superior to anything the Necrons have (Wraithguard and Wraithlords are obviously much better than Immortals or anything else the Necrons have)
The Eldar defeated death and even time and space.
With waystones, Haemunclulous resurrection, immortality and the webway.

They have better anti-gravity (consider that the Monolith is large but slow, yet the Scorpion is even larger and much, much faster)

It's certainly true that a gauss weapon has a chance to destroy anything, but so does the lowly haywire grenade.

Living metal is pretty amazing, but then you also have sentient weapons (diresword, wraithsword, singing spear) and Wraithbone which is basically a metamaterial that can do anything they want it to do.

The Chronos can alter time.

They can produce very powerful force fields and fields that alter space/time/light/perception to just simply avoid being hit.

They essentially have better technology than everyone in almost every sense.

The Necrons have some good technology based on hard science, but when it comes to basically miracles, it's the Eldar who deliver

samiens
04-01-2011, 11:31
I'd agree that Terminator armour is arguably more effective personal protection than Terminator armour- but they aren't equivalent- the Crisis Suit is the power armour equivalent.

When you fit a crisis suit with iridium armour, or look at the XV88 Broadside suit- you get equivalent (or with a shield generator better) protection than terminator armour (which also makes you stronger, better armed and has enough advanced systems to give you an extra wound). Also shows how Tau use technology to create battlefield capability in individuals that equals/exceeds that of Space Marines when you consider their fighting style.

Much as in the Taros campaign, the Imperium are technologically outmatched in a ground war against the Tau (though obviously tactics and numbers can overturn that advantage).

The Imperium is more advanced in terms of space travel/combat. We don't necessarily know enough about other elements of their technology to judge- although it seems that if nothing else the advanced civil technology of the Tau is far more readily available than that of the Imperium

Aliarzathanil
04-01-2011, 11:45
Not sure why Crisis suits are the power armour equivalents, but even if that's what you want to argue, power armour is actually pretty impressive given it's size. Being able to use cover and enter buildings is a huge tactical asset. If you want to compare one off limited run suits, it'd only be fair to look at things like artificer armour and storm shields.

Furthermore, Broadsides are kinda dumb in concept. They're not fast, can't really use cover, not any safer from close assault. What's the point over a tank? The Predator w/Las along with Speeders makes more sense. They at least have some advantages. Hell, the Valk Vendetta is leagues better.

On Taros, the IG are outmatched. The Imperium is much more than just the Guard.

Necron ships own Eldar in space so hard it's kinda sad. It's not even fair.
Necrons self repair, phase in and out of reality (somehow) and have foot troops that can teleport to other planets.

Guass weapons can potentially destroy anything in existence. Eldar guns throw blades at people, and not even that far...

jt.glass
04-01-2011, 12:22
I'm bowing out. Not because you're right, but because it just dawned on me that I spent the good portion of an afternoon arguing over make believe fluff set in a make believe universe. :rolleyes:It funny how arguing about fluff in a fictional universe didn't seem so silly before I rubutted all your argument, heh? :p


But I will leave with this........Yes, I will put a prototype against a 10,000 year workhorse. Prototype means technology that is evolving and advancing (and therefore superior), 10,000 year old means technology that is stagnate and dead.

After all, do we still use wooden bows to light fires? After all, that is a 10,000 year old workhorse.Er, I never said they weren't advancing (and quickly too), but advancing doesn't automatically equal better. Quite the contrary, in fact - rapid advancement generally indicates immature technology. Terran technology was advancing extremely rapidly in M15, but was still far below what the IoM has in M41!

And yes, some people still do wooden bows to light fires, but they do not represent the pinacle of our technology, just like your cherry picked examples do not represent the IoM's. Which was the point.



There are more, but frankly, I can't be bothered. They'll evidently just be ignored like the fact that Imperium is suffering an age where knowledge is lost but never regained has been a theme of 40k since Rogue Trader.Noone is denying lots have knowledge/technology has been lost. That is irrelevant to the point that what remains is more than enough.




Servitors are automatons, programmed to do one task only (well, multitasking servitors do exist, but they're rare).Rare doesn't matter. The IoM has them, the Tau don't.


On the other hand, drones are described as having the intelligence of a pterasquirrel. And if that's anything like a regular squirrel, that actually means they're pretty cunning.I'm loath to rely on game mechanics, but drones without a Tau controller do nothing, while servitors keep fighting (albeit a reduced capacity).

EDIT: I'm even more loath to rely on incorrect game mechanics. Please ignore this bit. The rest of the arguments still stand.


I have seen the Tau vs Imp tech argument crop up several times on this board now and when you sift through everyone's rhetoric it always boils down to whether or not the highest echelons of the Adeptus Mechanicus retain enough knowledge of high technology to be said to "have" that level of tech.

As near as I can tell there is not enough evidence to say either way.There is not enough evidence to say to what degree they understand their tech, except that they understand it enough to maintain, repair, and manufacture it. That is enough!


jt.

Castigator
04-01-2011, 12:34
I'm loath to rely on game mechanics, but drones without a Tau controller do nothing, while servitors keep fighting (albeit a reduced capacity).

Not that this would matter in the larger argument, but Tau drones act just fine as units of their own, whether purchased as such are dispatched from a vehicle, without the need for any kind of controller.

By "game mechanics", they're no smarter or dumber than any 40K game unit from Grots to ol' Eldrad himself.


Also, Tau have "servitor-equivalents" through the Helmets they strap on Vespids. Use that helmet on a human... tadaaa... instant servitor. It's just more efficent to use it on Vespids where controlling one controls the whole flock.

jt.glass
04-01-2011, 13:10
Not that this would matter in the larger argument, but Tau drones act just fine as units of their own, whether purchased as such are dispatched from a vehicle, without the need for any kind of controller.Oops, you're right. I shouldn't try to rely on my memory of a 'dex I don't own. I've edited my post... :o


jt.

Korraz
04-01-2011, 13:43
Well, actually, if the model holding the Controller dies, the Drones cease to function at the end of the phase.
The exceptions to this are vehicle-launched drones and the swarms. In case of the swarms, maybe they have some kind of hive-AI or are linked to a controller farther away. In case of the vehicledrones...Well, as long as the vehicle is there, it's clear. After that? Don't know. Maybe too linked to the network.

Bestaltan
04-01-2011, 14:05
It funny how arguing about fluff in a fictional universe didn't seem so silly before I rubutted all your argument, heh? :p


Nah. I bowed out when it became apparent you haven't read any fluff relating to the T'au whatsoever.

Again, go pick up IA: 3. The Imperium (because on Taros, you had Guard, elements of the Raptors Chapter Space Marines, and three warhounds from a titan legion) got its head handed to them. They were outclassed, outmaneuvered, and outgunned throughout the campaign. Heck, it took most of the Imperial fleet in orbit over Taros just to hunt down and take down the A'Rho, the T'au light battleship class. And this was at a cost of much of the Imperial fleet too.

As I've said now numerous times, the T'au have a level of technology equal to the Imperium.

By the way, railguns and anti grav.......Might want to go check the T'au codex on those.

Retribution
04-01-2011, 14:14
On average the Tau are at least as advanced as the Imperium; standard Tau equipment is equal, if not superior, to that issued to Imperial soldiers. When you get into high-end technology then it would have to favor the Imperium, an extra 10,000+ years of existence does come in handy after-all...

Korraz
04-01-2011, 14:15
Destroying something says nothing about the technology level. The Orks threw a rokk from da orbitz at an Eldar army, crushing a Phantom Titan.[Example] Therefore, Rocks are a more advanced technology than Phantom Titans.

Hellebore
04-01-2011, 14:48
Fine then. Replace "organic" with "biological" if you're going to insist on interpreting it with that definition of "organic".

My point about servitors not actually demonstrating anything which qualifies as intelligence still remains. For example, would you call a robot arm in a car factory intelligent? A servitor is about the same level, really.
Tau AIs on the other hand, learn and can make improved decisions based on what they have learnt.


The AI of land raiders can run the vehicle by itself and designate its own targets see the IA article on land raiders - a Crimson Fist land raider drove around for ages by itself fighting, retreating and targeting ork forces.

Titans have their own independence. Servo skulls have their own independence.

There are medical servo skulls that are used to cut and tend wounds. It would be impossible for them to do this without learning, because no two injuries would be identical. Following the same instructions over and over wouldn't work.



Don't be flippant, you know what is meant by it.


:confused: I wasn't, I was demonstrating that taking the statement as you had also includes lots of other silly things, therefore it is not a good conclusion to reach.



Give me a recipe and I can make a cake. But just following instructions does not mean you know what each stage does and why you do it.

I don't understand what would happen if I were to use granary flour instead of self-raising in any more depth than it would be a complete mess.



Not sure what you're trying to say here. By your argument most humans today are as ignorant as humanity in the imperium.

The admech can rebuild, repair, remake. You cannot do all these things without understanding them.

Do tau fire warriors understand their weaponry? No, because they are not the caste that understands technology.

At best there is all of 1 part of tau society that actually understands the technology they use, because in tau society they're the only part that's ALLOWED to do that. That's their purpose. One caste doing another caste's job is not allowed.

Therefore, only earth caste know how technology works. Every other caste does their own job using the technology, in the same way that today most humans do not know how the technology they use works, they simply use it.

The Admech have ritualised and superstionalised (now a word) their technology, but the simple fact that they can repair, rebuild, modify and manufacture items of great complexity and size indicates that under all that dogma and ritual they have even accidentally understood the forces at work.

If I call volts the 'almighty force of the machine god' whilst watts are the 'power of the machine god' and everything about them is described in allegory and so on, but how they interact is still described correctly, then I understand how electricty works and how it interacts. I just understand it in a way that is effectively a mnomonic taken too far.

To be able to fix the pistons in an engine you have to understand how they work, otherwise you won't do it right. Unless you know that they need to go up and down, there is just as much chance you'll put them in back to front.

Give someone some instructions to a car engine and ask them to fix it. See how well they do without understanding how an engine works.

You're argument is that everything the mechanicus do is entirely following a blind set of instructions that they never deviate nor understand. For them to do what they do they cannot be doing this.

The scale, complexity and precision their technology requires to function makes blindly undeviating from a set of instructions pretty much impossible.


And if they ARE doing this, then those have to be the most comprehensive instructions with an infinite number of 'troubleshooting' tabs ever devised.

And if you've mastered the instructions of a plasma reactor to the point you can build them from warhound to starship sized, then you'd have to be all sorts of peculiar NOT to have figured out how that **** works.

Hellebore

Idaan
04-01-2011, 16:07
To people arguing that Imperium doesn't invent. Open 3e rulebook, the fluff section. There is a whole page spread of new inventions from ONE Forge World over ONE year. The reason that it takes a lot of time to come into wide use is the fact that they have one million worlds with varying technology levels, ten thousand years of development and re-using of old technology in thousands of different patterns, and they have to make it cross-compatible with all of that.

The advantage the Tau have is illusory and comes from the small size of their empire. Yes, they issue pulse rifles to all their infantry, because they have no logistic problems with doing so. But there are probably more Titan Plasma Annihilators in just one Imperial Segmentum than there are Tau Fire Warriors in existence.

MarcoSkoll
04-01-2011, 16:28
Not sure what you're trying to say here. For them to do what they do they cannot be doing this.
I am not suggesting this is the case for all of their technology. But of the most ancient and advanced technologies, then there are parts which they do not understand and for which they are only following instructions over and over.

As for how they manage repairs - something that large and advanced probably has self-diagnostics that identifies the problem. And for the things that don't, they have auspexes that do that job.
Besides given the original purpose of STCs, I'd be surprised if their "printouts" didn't include fairly sophisticated repair instructions and details of how to modify the plans when what you needed to build part X wasn't available.

ChaosTicket
04-01-2011, 19:17
Tau technology isn't so much advanced, as the Imperials dont show it in their lists. Imperial forces have railguns, mass drivers, and so many plasma weapons its ridiculous.

The Tau officially gots "dibs" on the name railgun when they were made, but alot of imperial weapons, especially titans weapons are railguns or coilguns.

Crisis suits are the quivalent of power armor, because they are the Tau version of power armor, or more accurately powered exoskeletons. Crisis suits act as special forces for the tau the same way the Imperium uses Astartes or Stormtroopers(more the astartes).

As for tech, remember that GW wont allow any "real" hotshot lasguns or carapace armor on the Imperial Guard anymore, if they did then Tau would be facing something like S4 lasguns, and 4+ armor, and then the whole Tau advantage would be lost when their precious pulse rifles have trouble taking out basic Guardsmen.

The Imperium has Anti-hgrav tech, but because of the cost in maintenence and producing, its more cost effective to use mass produced tanks like the Leman Russ variants.

Remember that the Tau have no where near the numbers of even a fraction of the Imperium, and they kind of show it(you could have 20 Carapace Guardsen for every 12 Fire Warriors, or 10 marines for every 3 Crisis suits, or 3 Leman Russ for every Hammerhead).

Imperial armor notably gives then "new" xenos forces almost auto wins to show off their gear, otherwise it would be something like "Tau fought use, but our Leman Russ Vanquishers destroyed their Tanks, our Heavy Guard and Astartes beat their Fire Warriors and Kroot" etc.

Even the very first Domocles Crusade ended prematurely because the Imperials had to go fight Hive Fleet Kraken on Ichar IV.

Tau have merits, but their tech isnt really unique. If the Imperium could increase armor on soldiers, give them some of the many different patterns of lasguns, they would pretty much have Fire Warriors, and other equivalents but GW removed alot of the rare-tech from Imperial armies, so all you see is flak armor and lasguns.

jt.glass
04-01-2011, 19:18
Nah. I bowed out when it became apparent you haven't read any fluff relating to the T'au whatsoever.Actually I have (although not as much as you apparently have). But I've been involved in these sorts of debates before, so I have more appreciation for the fact that looking high-tech and actually being high-tech are not the same thing.

BTW, for someone who has bowed out, you are doing an excellent impression of still being here... :p


Again, go pick up IA: 3. The Imperium (because on Taros, you had Guard, elements of the Raptors Chapter Space Marines, and three warhounds from a titan legion) got its head handed to them. They were outclassed, outmaneuvered, and outgunned throughout the campaign. Heck, it took most of the Imperial fleet in orbit over Taros just to hunt down and take down the A'Rho, the T'au light battleship class. And this was at a cost of much of the Imperial fleet too.I have not read IA3, but from your description ISTM more like superior tactics than superior technology.


As I've said now numerous times, the T'au have a level of technology equal to the Imperium.You keep saying it, but you have failed to demonstrate it. Rather, Hellebore and I have demonstrated that the opposite is true.


By the way, railguns and anti grav.......Might want to go check the T'au codex on those.Was this aimed at me? Because I certainly never claimed that Tau didn't have those things, because I know damn well that they do.

Of course, the IoM have them too. Like pretty much everything else the Tau have. The reverse is not true.

Even if everything else was equal (which it isn't), the Tau's almost total lack of warp tech (which your side has tacetly admitted by trying to make excuses for it) would give the IoM a clear lead!


Destroying something says nothing about the technology level. The Orks threw a rokk from da orbitz at an Eldar army, crushing a Phantom Titan.[Example] Therefore, Rocks are a more advanced technology than Phantom Titans.Rocks, no. Being able to capture them in space and throw them at titans? Maybe.


jt.

Skogla
04-01-2011, 19:26
In terms of logic and reason......T'au. A race whose philosophical ideology is to NOT kill everyone in the 41st millenium? That sets them head and shoulders over everyone else.

I wouldn't find it logic to invite Necrons to some "woohpiee, we survived the tyranids invasion"-party, quite logic :P rather the opposite.

1) Necrons (tech-wise)
2) Eldar (logic-wise)
3) Eldar (reasoning-wise)

Thats my penny.

ChaosTicket
04-01-2011, 19:28
Well yes Orks understanding of technology is frightening, as while mostly unrepresented in the current list, they have advanced tractor beam, power field, and even tellyportas.

Most of Tau technology is simply Imperial equipment that is relatively rare and unrepresented ingame, like the Grav vehicles or rail weapons. Tau being more innovative can build that, but not as much mass produce it. Tau themselves are very limited, as their "third sphere expansion" is still small in space and far from their central empire. They have no warp tech so after a certain point they either wont be able to progress far using only impulse engines, or they will end up like the Roman Empire, and the frontier will require others to fight in it.
-------------------------------
Never underestimate Ork technology, or else you might see some floating fortresses in the shape of Mork & Gorks' heads, shooting green beams.

Korraz
04-01-2011, 20:25
Actually, Orks are the perfect match for the example Bestaltan is trying to make out of the Imperium.

Orks have lots and lots of tech. They invent new stuff. Hell, actually, everytime a new tribe gets a new mekk, the whole cycle starts all over again. But they don't understand it. They don't question it. The tractor beam pulls that stuff, because it is big, and there are coils and rotating globes and stuff. The shoota shoots, because it has a barrel, a trigger and somewhere to stuff ammo in. The trukk moves, because it has five+ wheels, an exhaustion pipe and a big, noise engine, where a big noise engine should be.

MarcoSkoll
04-01-2011, 21:11
Orks have lots and lots of tech. But they don't understand it.
They don't consciously understand it, but they do understand it. Also, a lot of it may only work because of the Anzion Theorem of Orkoid Mechamorphic Resonant Kinetics.

Korraz
04-01-2011, 21:16
They understand "If I weld this tube to this box and stick this metal thingy to it, it will shoot if the metal thingy is pulled."
And that is a tiny fraction of the Orkociety.

samiens
04-01-2011, 21:17
I don't really get the Tau mass producing angle. Tau are able to mass produce much of their tech and equip their armies with it, despite having a small empire. The Imperium, with countelss forge worlds, predominantly can only mass produce more basic tech- so as a point in the Imperiums favour this seems relatively fruitless.

I will agree that Taros is predominantly about Tau tactics carrying the day (against astartes, IG, Imperial Navy and titans) but their tactics are based on the inherent advantages of Tau tech (longer range and greater mobility- which in particular means they do not have the logistical problems of the Imperium).

In a ground war Tau have the better tech, both in game and in the narrative- but tehy are far more limited numerically. In other areas the Imperium is undoubtedly more advanced and in many other we either just don't know or its a tie.

RobPro
04-01-2011, 21:32
I'm pretty sure that the Necrons building the C'tan bodies for their gods to inhabit is a better show of tech than wraithguard/lords. Without the warp, eldar tech loses its potency. Necron tech has ways to close off the warp.

ChaosTicket
04-01-2011, 21:44
The difference is that Tau tech is mainly around pre-dark Age of technology human empire technology, but unlike the human empire they dont have hundreds of thousands of worlds to produce their tech.

Again if you showed the more advaned Imperial tech you would seem much less difference, but again mass produced Leman Russ' are more cost effective. Even in terms of tech, The Tau probably will never have any super-heavy skimmer tanks, Titans, etc.
----------------------------
Tau Tech is based not on advantage but rather "GW SAYS!", in this case that the pulse rifle is stronger than a bolter.

I dont think the Tau have any unique tech as even their mighty battlesuits are just powered exoskeletons, which is just oversized Powered Armor possibly with an MIU slave-system. Or more common(or in the Tau case ONLY) tech like the skimmers, or rail weapons mounted on things smaller than Knights or Warhound Titans.

But they do have better field tactics than the Guard, but then the Guard are usually created for "pure" forces, like tank companies, or light infantry.

Retribution
04-01-2011, 21:56
Tau technology isn't so much advanced, as the Imperials dont show it in their lists. Imperial forces have railguns, mass drivers, and so many plasma weapons its ridiculous.

The Tau officially gots "dibs" on the name railgun when they were made, but alot of imperial weapons, especially titans weapons are railguns or coilguns.

Crisis suits are the quivalent of power armor, because they are the Tau version of power armor, or more accurately powered exoskeletons. Crisis suits act as special forces for the tau the same way the Imperium uses Astartes or Stormtroopers(more the astartes).

As for tech, remember that GW wont allow any "real" hotshot lasguns or carapace armor on the Imperial Guard anymore, if they did then Tau would be facing something like S4 lasguns, and 4+ armor, and then the whole Tau advantage would be lost when their precious pulse rifles have trouble taking out basic Guardsmen.

The Imperium has Anti-hgrav tech, but because of the cost in maintenence and producing, its more cost effective to use mass produced tanks like the Leman Russ variants.

Remember that the Tau have no where near the numbers of even a fraction of the Imperium, and they kind of show it(you could have 20 Carapace Guardsen for every 12 Fire Warriors, or 10 marines for every 3 Crisis suits, or 3 Leman Russ for every Hammerhead).

Imperial armor notably gives then "new" xenos forces almost auto wins to show off their gear, otherwise it would be something like "Tau fought use, but our Leman Russ Vanquishers destroyed their Tanks, our Heavy Guard and Astartes beat their Fire Warriors and Kroot" etc.

Even the very first Domocles Crusade ended prematurely because the Imperials had to go fight Hive Fleet Kraken on Ichar IV.

Tau have merits, but their tech isnt really unique. If the Imperium could increase armor on soldiers, give them some of the many different patterns of lasguns, they would pretty much have Fire Warriors, and other equivalents but GW removed alot of the rare-tech from Imperial armies, so all you see is flak armor and lasguns.
Exactly, carapace armor, hot-shot lasguns, anti-grav etc is rare for the Imperium; it's completely standardized within the Tau empire. I can use the same logic and say that if GW lifted the rarity of Crisis suits then you'd have entire cadres, or even armies of Crisis teams...but they don't, because they're rare. And afaik the only working piece of anti-grav tech in the Imperium is Sammael's jetbike

Retribution
04-01-2011, 21:57
The difference is that Tau tech is mainly around pre-dark Age of technology human empire technology, but unlike the human empire they dont have hundreds of thousands of worlds to produce their tech.

Again if you showed the more advaned Imperial tech you would seem much less difference, but again mass produced Leman Russ' are more cost effective. Even in terms of tech, The Tau probably will never have any super-heavy skimmer tanks, Titans, etc.
----------------------------
Tau Tech is based not on advantage but rather "GW SAYS!", in this case that the pulse rifle is stronger than a bolter.

I dont think the Tau have any unique tech as even their mighty battlesuits are just powered exoskeletons, which is just oversized Powered Armor possibly with an MIU slave-system. Or more common(or in the Tau case ONLY) tech like the skimmers, or rail weapons mounted on things smaller than Knights or Warhound Titans.

But they do have better field tactics than the Guard, but then the Guard are usually created for "pure" forces, like tank companies, or light infantry.
The Tau super-heavy is the Manta, it's their titan-equivalent

And the ENTIRETY of 40k is based on "GW SAIZ!", so that's a rather ridiculous argument

R Man
04-01-2011, 22:19
Err... I always hate these Tau vs. Imperial discussions. They always ignore context and make uneven comparisons. For example I wonder if comparing Fire Warriors with Imperial Guard is accurate. Would it be better to compare them to Space Marines? In terms of equipment at least.

I think that any discussion can only be fruitful if we include the emphasis of technology to each and their performance needs to include discussion on what each nation considers strategically important.

jt.glass
04-01-2011, 22:30
And afaik the only working piece of anti-grav tech in the Imperium is Sammael's jetbikeThat's right, just Sammael's jetbike. Its not like speeders are a common civilian mode of transportation or anything. Oh, wait... :D


jt.

Retribution
04-01-2011, 22:43
That's right, just Sammael's jetbike. Its not like speeders are a common civilian mode of transportation or anything. Oh, wait... :D


jt.


Jetbikes and their technology are now distrusted by Mankind as being alien and inhuman, purely in the realm of the Eldar and Tau.


Land Speeders are based on STC data recovered in M31, and afterwards became widely produced and used throughout the Imperium. Land Speeders were also originally used by the Imperial Guard, but since then the plasma and anti-gravity technologies required to use them have become increasingly rare, and so only extremely resource rich planets or organizations such as Ryza or the Space Marines can afford to create them.

Now the information is from lexicanum, so you know...grain of salt and all. But it's quite a stretch to say that common imperial speeders are of the same anti-grav type given that there is only one working anti-grav jetbike among imperial forces and land speeders are only utilized by marines (do speeders even use the same anti-grav tech?)

Korraz
04-01-2011, 22:49
Servo Skulls. Cherubim. Most likely Jump Packs to some extent. Ships. Civilian transports.

H.LaFever
04-01-2011, 22:54
I'll say it again, as apparently everyone here is oblivious...
Ummm....
maybe its because i got into 40k back in 1987, but Ive always thought it was cannon that the most intellegent / advanced / whatever race was the orange monkeys, the Jorelco, or however it was that you spelled it.
many of the tech today that has been lost in the 40k fluff belonged to them.

and arent the c'tan also a 'race'?

they are a mighty and playable race, if you want to use later fluff.
even though you can only field one at a time, they are still a fieldable race.... just saying

ChaosTicket
04-01-2011, 23:17
The Jokaero are a race of Orange apes that can make advanced tech, but as they dont conquer or fight they are just xenos weapon makers. They are just missing, not dead(yet).
---------------------------------------------------
The C'Tan have no technology, it's the Necrontyr who make everything, even the Necrondermis bodies that the C'Tan inhabit.
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I have said this several different ways, but what is common for the Tau and rare for the Imperium mean the same thing, as Tau are less than 1/10000th the size of the Imperium, and that includes population and military so them having all skimmers is ok, on the other hand the Imperium generally has its forces spread everywhere, or else you would see thousands of storm troopers in every battle.

Tau DO NOT have any Super-heavy TANKS, which logically should collapse under their own weight or need an engine with enough power to power a small city just to move, and that expands to Titans which should crumble every step, yet keep walking and have enormous guns.
----------------------------
Again, various imperial tech is based on where a supplier is(people who can reproduce it), so you can have one planet with thousands of skimmers, but then another 4 with regular automobiles, and even 1 using old Ford Model Ts. That extends to most of the Imperium, like a Forge World that mass produced Volcano Cannons, but then another which cant and makes Plasma Blastguns.

Tau have standardised things more because their Empire are so very small, it's OK, and the never had the Age of Strife, or Reign of Blood, to decentralise technology throughout thousands of systems. Also alot of their tech is increasing based on Xenos tech supplied by others like the Demiurg.

Korraz
04-01-2011, 23:21
Actually, the Imperium has standardized a lot of things. Otherwise, the whole thing wouldn't work.

ChaosTicket
04-01-2011, 23:29
The Imperium isnt Equal in Tech, if they dont have access to STCs they have to deal with lesser localised equipment(like the Model Ts, heh), and some planets are just outright kept or left in low tech worlds like feudal or feral, and astartes commonly recruit from them.

Oh, and if you are wondering about Imperial tech think about this. The Imperium produces in the billions, cannons firing coherant light rated in megawatts mass-produced and mounted on nearly everything from tripods to space ships, power by a car battery sized super power pack that can be used multiple times. That is the Lascannon, and isnt including all the plasma weapons, Space ship mounted Lances, Volcano Cannons, Plasma Destructors, Nova Cannons, etc.

Bergen Beerbelly
04-01-2011, 23:32
And Squats have the most advanced propulsion system for space borne vessels out of everyone. And they know how ALL of the tech works that the imperium has. Except for maybe the Golden Toilet.

Retribution
04-01-2011, 23:35
What was Squat propulsion like?

ChaosTicket
04-01-2011, 23:38
The squats died along time ago and then then did they ever have anything that the Imperium doesnt have? Im honestly asking as they died like 15 years ago at least. I think in 40k they died more like 1000+ years ago.
----------------------------------------

But the Necrons are pretty awesome in terms of tech, simply because they have replicating nano-technology and weapons that separate molecular bonds, aka Disintegrators of many different sizes.

Eldar have advanced Warp technology, and they can create psychic material, wraithbone, to make up some of the technology. Their hard but flexible materials, pseudo wings, thought controlled weapons, etc.

Hellebore
04-01-2011, 23:40
I think he may be referring to warp plasma:

"[...] the neoplasma reactor powered by a warp-core and held in thrall by a zero-energy containment field."

The Contagion of Ganemede was the result of the admech attempting to do the same thing.

What that reactor sounds like is using warp energy to produce plasma. As warp energy is pretty much limitless that's pretty amazing. The eldar however bypass the need for plasma and build things that just use psychic energy instead.

The difference between the two is the difference between a nuclear reactor that uses the heat of decaying elements to boil water to spin a dynamo to produce electricity and one that directly harnesses the decaying elements to produce electricity.

Hellebore

Bergen Beerbelly
04-01-2011, 23:40
I'm quoting from the Squats section of my old Epic rules:

" The Guild has already developed the most advanced form of propulsion for spacecraft: a neoplasma reactor powered by a warp-core held in thrall by a containment field of Zero-Energy. No other race has ever replicated this drive mechanism, the Adeptus Mechanicus having given up their experiments with Warp-Core technology ever since the infamous Contagion of Ganymede."

Bergen Beerbelly
04-01-2011, 23:47
Yes, the Squats had a lot of stuff the imperium doesn't have. And even according to Jervis's article, they didn't all die, just the majority of them. There are still some strongholds left, they just keep to themselves mostly.

The Squats had all of the technology from the Dark Age of Technology and still use it. They also learned the secrets of stable Warp Fission, by which the energy of Warp Space is flared off to produce limitless supplies of energy.

Friedrich von Offenbach
04-01-2011, 23:49
Technology, reasoning, logic, Pah! Forget all that! BLOOD ANGELS: WIN WIN WIN, my death mask hurts you some how! I'm a really small but equally powerful canifex, ahhhhhhhh.

I think that sums it up quite nicely:D

ChaosTicket
04-01-2011, 23:51
Where? Squats are abhumans so possibly would be accepted in the Imperium, but with their planets literally devoured by Tyranids, they wouldnt have any forces without joining the Imperium or Tau, and the Eldar didnt help them so that isnt viable.
------------------------

In a discussion of technology, you just said did one of the least intelligent things, which is probably just trolling.

Bergen Beerbelly
05-01-2011, 00:05
Well, I don't want to turn this into another Squats were eaten by the Tyranids thread but the Squats still exist on the homeworlds they were origionally on. If the area they were origionally in had actually been eaten by a hive fleet then the whole galaxy would be in much more serious trouble than it is in right now.

The Squats were at the core of the galaxy and they had billions of worlds that they inhabited. After all, there are far more worlds at the core than there ever were in the arms of the galaxy. If a Tyranid force had gotten large enough to devour them all from the center of the galaxy, do you honestly think the Imperium or anyone else for that matter would have survived for long?

For the most part, the Squats just became internal looking and gave up on the rest of the galaxy. They don't run around fighting wars anymore, just supplying the Imperium with technology, like they used to.

For all intents and purposes they don't exist as a fighting race in the game anymore, but they are still around, even according to Jervis. Though he says there are a few fighting forces(that last bit allows those of us with Squats to keep using them in the "counts as" way in 40k) mostly pirate forces.

In apocalypse, you can see the influence of Squats in some of the Super Heavy Vehicles. The Leviathan was a super heavy that the Squats produce for the imperium for instance. The Valkyrie bears a striking resemblance to the old Squat Iron Eagle Gyrocoptor too.

TheLaughingGod
05-01-2011, 00:06
Tau versus Imperium isn't a valid argument in this thread since the Eldar and the Necrons are better than both.

ChaosTicket
05-01-2011, 00:54
I wonder why the Eldar cant make decent armor or power fields, but can make flexible armor, mirage fields, and wraithbone?

Eldar have a big head up on the Tau, who have no warp-tech, and cant even make a super heavy tank, while the Eldar have at least 2, not to mention their vehicles are FAST, unlike the tau.

Retribution
05-01-2011, 01:17
I wonder why the Eldar cant make decent armor or power fields, but can make flexible armor, mirage fields, and wraithbone?

Eldar have a big head up on the Tau, who have no warp-tech, and cant even make a super heavy tank, while the Eldar have at least 2, not to mention their vehicles are FAST, unlike the tau.

Yea, the Eldar also have about...a million years on the Tau? And i imagine the Tau could very well make super-heavy tanks if it became necessary or fit into their combat doctrine; the Manta may not be a tank, but it is most certainly an atmospheric "super-heavy" vehicle

ForgottenLore
05-01-2011, 01:33
No one says the Tau CAN'T make a superheavy tank, they just don't. Their superheavies are all fliers. The Manta is essentially a flying Warlord Titan.

TheLaughingGod
05-01-2011, 01:53
I wonder why the Eldar cant make decent armor or power fields, but can make flexible armor, mirage fields, and wraithbone?.
Uh, they can? The Exarch suit or the Scorpion suit offers the protection of Space Marine power armour with a much more compact power system, as well as being psychoreactive and adjusting and being less restrictive.

Autarch Forceshields and Rune Armour are both examples of powerful personal forcefields.



Eldar have a big head up on the Tau, who have no warp-tech, and cant even make a super heavy tank, while the Eldar have at least 2, not to mention their vehicles are FAST, unlike the tau.
Right. So the Eldar have better tech. How long they've had to develop it has no relelvence in who has better tech NOW which is what this thread is about.

ChaosTicket
05-01-2011, 02:01
No a flying warlord titan would be something else, like a super thunderhawk. I think the Imperial have something like that.

The Tau have holes in their tech, that seems to be the overall theme of the 40k armies.
------------------------------------
Here is a question, have the tau even discovered a form of Rifling?

------------------------------------
Other than than an argument for "tau are awesome" is this still about technology?

I think Chaos should be given a mention as while not shown much, they can make their own vehicles, many based on daemons, like the Defiler or Slaughterer(which is daemon possessed). They make different technology and have some of the dark Mechanicus making things, so why not mention them, like the Brass Scorpion!

Dreadgrass
05-01-2011, 02:53
I'm not too sure who I'd peg as "most" advanced, as they'res a lot of disparity within that interpretation, a few of my thoughts though:

Tyranid and Necron's I see as similar, their armies being primarily extensions of greater beings (ie. the Hive mind and the C'tan).

Eldar and Dark Eldar I'm not hugely familiar with, but if your looking at empires as a whole (including things like art, civilian technologies, etc.) they'd probably be the forerunners of technological ability.

The Imperium has access to a vast array of technology... How "advanced" they are by virtue of Having technology they don't really understand is up for debate however. They're understanding of their technology seems to be like swiss cheese, they can implant gene-seeds and create super soldiers, but can't manufacture or reverse-engineer a lot of their equipment due to their "holy" nature.

Tau are NOT the most advanced race... yet. However, consider that they've reached a technological understanding (if not actual level of technology available) greater than the Imperium within 200 years. ..

Reflex
05-01-2011, 03:24
Dreadgrass, most of the necron tech was invented by the nectontry i believe, with the final steps of them being turned into necrons done by the C'tan in order for them to win the war with the old ones. so i'd say in the year 40,000 necron tech is 90% necrontry and 10% c tan, if that.

Retribution
05-01-2011, 04:02
No a flying warlord titan would be something else, like a super thunderhawk. I think the Imperial have something like that.

The Tau have holes in their tech, that seems to be the overall theme of the 40k armies.
------------------------------------
Here is a question, have the tau even discovered a form of Rifling?

------------------------------------
Other than than an argument for "tau are awesome" is this still about technology?


Just because the Tau don't have giant robots doesn't mean they don't have an equivalent vehicle in terms of overall power projection. But obviously the Tau have holes in their tech, that comes with being a whole race of warp-null individuals. And i have to wonder exactly what kind of effect rifling would have on...plasma

ChaosTicket
05-01-2011, 04:17
Finally a mecha joke on the Tau's expense.

But yeah Mantas are large, but I wouldnt compare them to Warlords, maybe Warhounds, and remember Warhounds have void shields, and other things like Turbo Laser Destroyers, Plasma Blastguns, etc.

My rifling point was that Tau may not even have understanding of things like chemical propellants, rifling, any type of Force Field, etc. that the Imperium has, while at the same time the Imperium has much of the Tau tech, just isnt able to focus every army with that, otherwise every Leman Russ could be a Vanquisher, or every guardsmen would have carapace, riding in skimmer transports, with bolters and plasma cannons, in low orbit...is that enough to joke and get my point across?

Do Tau have any tech that the Imperium doesnt have at all? Thats the real question. Imperial Tech isnt entirely understood by many, mainly because the Admechs ritualised it then covet the technology. The Imperium still has few places where a FEW Imperials are actually able to understand the tech and possibly innovate.

Retribution
05-01-2011, 04:28
I think you mean a mecha joke not at the Tau's expense :P

The Manta has Tau fleet weapons, as in rail-batteries, and a very large number of ion-cannons; it's also heavy shielded, now i don't know if they're equivalent to void shields...but yes, the Tau have shield technology. The idea that a civilization with standardized plasma and anti-gravity technology wouldn't understand chemical reactions is...quite a stretch, to say the least. And yes, i know, if the Imperium was any more awesome every guardsmen would be riding a robot-dinosaur with adamantium armor, while shooting guns the equivalent of deathstars...but it isn't and they don't. The state of fluff is as it is, where the Imperium has been in a long decline while the Tau are on the up-and-coming; do they have or even understand the extremely high-end golden age technology of man? Nope...but then again, neither do men themselves (arguably)

ForgottenLore
05-01-2011, 04:43
The Manta doesn't have void shields, it just has a permanent force field giving it a 4++ Invulnerable Save.

A Warlord is 2500 points, a Manta is 2000
A Warlord has 9 structure points, a Manta 10

Only 1 of the Manta's weapons has strength D but it has 21 weapons (plus 10 missiles) to the Warlords 4 weapons. The warlord can put out, at most, 36 shots a turn, the manta 66.

Yes, the Warlord probably has more powerful weaponry but the manta has a lot more of it, non-ablative force fields, more structure points...and flies (which means it is much harder to hit.

Oh, and can carry a small army with it.

All that makes them sound fairly comparable to me.

The Manta is also specifically described in the fluff as the Tau's answer to Titans. They are not the same, in fact I think the fulfill different battlefield roles, but they are clearly both on the same scale.

ChaosTicket
05-01-2011, 05:19
Oi will this ever turn back to a tech thread rather than Imperial Vs Tau?

TheLaughingGod
05-01-2011, 05:28
Only 1 of the Manta's weapons has strength D but it has 21 weapons (plus 10 missiles) to the Warlords 4 weapons. The warlord can put out, at most, 36 shots a turn, the manta 66.
Most of the Warlords weapons are blasts. So... yeah. more shots doesn't mean more hits.



Yes, the Warlord probably has more powerful weaponry but the manta has a lot more of it, non-ablative force fields, more structure points...and flies (which means it is much harder to hit.
Regenerating Void Shields are better in the long run. It means it can make more hits before it actually starts to suffer for it.
And even though it flies, it's not harder to hit. It's special rule makes it just as easily targeted as any other model.



Oh, and can carry a small army with it.
Which dies when the Manta does. Not a good thing, really.

UberBeast
05-01-2011, 06:10
Dark eldar are really more advanced than the eldar because they use all sorts of forbidden technology that the eldar wouldn't touch after the fall. For instance, the ability to harness and capture a star.

Necrons for the win though.

Still Standing
05-01-2011, 06:44
Technology: Tau. They have the best standard infantry gun.

Actually, the Imperial Guard do. The lasgun is 100% accurate, has no recoil, holds thousands of shots per power pack, can be recharged by throwing it in a fire, has no mussel flash, can be adapted to be almost silent and the shot invisible and doesn't mind being used as a club. It can be made out of almost any material, and powered by almost any power source. Also, it's so simple that a feral worlder has no problem using it. Best of all though, there are untold BILLIONS of them.

ForgottenLore
05-01-2011, 07:31
For instance, the ability to harness and capture a star.

According to the DE codex the Eldar Empire at its height captured and harnessed stars for Commoragh, I don't think it specifies whether the DE themselves can still do this, though the impression I got is that no, they can't.

I'm curious though about DE and wraithbone. It was my understanding that warp gates and web way portals had to be made out of wraithbone or some sort of psychoplasic, yet the DE don't use psychic powers. How does that work.

More generally on topic, it is difficult to compare the tech level of the various species in the 40K universe because most of them approach technology different from each other and us today.

Eldar tech is almost entirely psychic based, does that make it more or less advanced?
Ork create technology instictively, so do they have a greater or lesser understanding of it?
Do tyranids have a complete absence of technology, or simply super super advanced biotechnology?

A big part of the reason why the Tau vs Imperium debate has so dominated this thread is because those are about the only 2 species in the game with whom you can make meaningful comparisons, all the others are so alien (or so similar to Imperial tech ie chaos) as to render comparisons pointless.

I actually give serious props to GW for managing to pull that off. Creating a whole series of species that all use technology but do so so differently from each other that comparison becomes difficult is not an easy creative effort.

As for the other questions in the original post, I really don't know what is meant by being more advanced in logic or reasoning. Ork behavior is completely logical to an Ork, even if it seems totally insane to a human.

jt.glass
05-01-2011, 10:24
Tau versus Imperium isn't a valid argument in this thread since the Eldar and the Necrons are better than both.(Almost) noone disagrees with that. The Tau vs IoM debate is for third place (if you don't count the squats as third).


No one says the Tau CAN'T make a superheavy tank, they just don't. Their superheavies are all fliers. The Manta is essentially a flying Warlord Titan.Superheavy tanks, yes. Titans, no. Big aircraft are a lot easier to make than big walkers.

Think about it: We can make big aircraft now. Titans, not so much...


A Warlord is 2500 points, a Manta is 2000
A Warlord has 9 structure points, a Manta 10Flyers burn through SP a lot quicker than non flyers, so that is not even close to equivalence.


That's right, just Sammael's jetbike. Its not like speeders are a common civilian mode of transportation or anything. Oh, wait... :D



That's right, just Sammael's jetbike. Its not like speeders are a common civilian mode of transportation or anything. Oh, wait... :DNow the information is from lexicanum, so you know...grain of salt and all. But it's quite a stretch to say that common imperial speeders are of the same anti-grav type given that there is only one working anti-grav jetbike among imperial forces and land speeders are only utilized by marinesI was recently in hospital for three week, and during my stay I read (amongst other things) the entire Eisenhorn omnibus. During the course of the of the stories therein, he visits dozens of inhabitted worlds, and on virtsually every one he either hires a speeder or has one provided by the local authorities.


(do speeders even use the same anti-grav tech?)What does that matter? Different antigrav tech is still antigrav tech.


jt.

Stonerhino
05-01-2011, 10:52
The Manta doesn't have void shields, it just has a permanent force field giving it a 4++ Invulnerable Save.

A Warlord is 2500 points, a Manta is 2000
A Warlord has 9 structure points, a Manta 10

Only 1 of the Manta's weapons has strength D but it has 21 weapons (plus 10 missiles) to the Warlords 4 weapons. The warlord can put out, at most, 36 shots a turn, the manta 66.

Yes, the Warlord probably has more powerful weaponry but the manta has a lot more of it, non-ablative force fields, more structure points...and flies (which means it is much harder to hit.

Oh, and can carry a small army with it.

All that makes them sound fairly comparable to me.

The Manta is also specifically described in the fluff as the Tau's answer to Titans. They are not the same, in fact I think the fulfill different battlefield roles, but they are clearly both on the same scale.You can not hit a flyer with blasts. But anything that uses a BS to-hit hits the manta on a normal to-hit roll. IE not just sixes like other flyers.

Something you are missing is that a Manta is FTL capable. Which is by far, way better then anything a Warlord can bring to the table.

Anyways, the most advanced race is the Necrons. Who has weapons that can kill a titan, carried as their basic troops. Think about how sad it would be to see a Warlord get killed by a scarab swarm with D-Fields. Or a rapid firing unit of Necron warriors.

RobPro
05-01-2011, 11:21
Actually, the Imperial Guard do. The lasgun is 100% accurate, has no recoil, holds thousands of shots per power pack, can be recharged by throwing it in a fire, has no mussel flash, can be adapted to be almost silent and the shot invisible and doesn't mind being used as a club. It can be made out of almost any material, and powered by almost any power source. Also, it's so simple that a feral worlder has no problem using it. Best of all though, there are untold BILLIONS of them.

Best is a very subjective term. Depending on the edition, Necrons might have the best bssic trooper gun. Or the worst.

Korraz
05-01-2011, 11:28
Fluff, man. The Fluff.

The Gun is also incredibly durable, can be reloaded by laying the pack into the sun and a Vostroyan lasgun can be repaired with the parts of a junk-lasgun from the other end of the empire, built 10 000 years ago. Or, literally, gum, a paper clip and duct tape.

Memnos
05-01-2011, 11:41
Technology does not always equate to the best logic or reasoning.

The Necrons have, by far, the best technology. Being the only race as old as the Old Ones does have its advantages.

The Tau, on the other hand, are far more capable where it comes to reasoning by the Scientific Method, or Classical Reasoning.

The Necrons have mostly mindless slaves, with a few slave overlords who(Depending on how far gone their engrams are) might be completely insane.

The Eldar become obsessed, whether by pain and killing or by a specific Path, and can pursue it doggedly at the expense of reason.

The Tau are much closer to a Confucian ideal of reasoning, and so have the best backdrop to pursue advancement. While their technology is not as impressive as the Necrons, that's because the Necrons have had many million years to advance, while the Tau have had... What? 4000 years?

The best logic, on the other hand, is nearly impossible to decide who has the best. The Necron ideal of 'I was told to. Logically, then, I should' is logical from the point of view of a machine following orders. It is perfectly ordered and the inference is understood perfectly.

The Tau keep getting kicked in the head for reaching out to other races instead of obliterating them. Logically, they should stop. They won't, though, and they lose out on the logical part.

I would say logic has little to no place in the mad universe of 40K.

Spectral Dragon
05-01-2011, 11:57
...because they are more concerned about the lives of their troops, so keep the power levels down. Not because they are technologically superior.


jt.

Tau Codex, Marine Codex, A fair amount of black library material, and Dawn of War all do more than hint that Tau have better technology than the Imperium. They are extremely few in number and not skilled, however.

In terms of the most advanced tech-wise, it's Necrons. You can argue tyrranids, but tyrranids don't advance their technology so much as themselves.

ChaosTicket
05-01-2011, 15:15
Tyranids bio technology isnt just self change. Alot of the physical biomorphs have been "killed" in the 5th edition. Their technology is often form fitted to create whatever beastie and weapon to fit the needs, like Hive Guard are durable soldiers armed with mid-range anti tank weapons, and the Biovore fires organic mines great distances.

Their weapons are increasingly advancing to make up when simple "swarm" and "big guy" tactics fail. Other races make guns and tanks, the Tyranids make symbiote weapons and entire new strains of creatures.

---------------------------------------------------
The Tau are innovative, and that may help them if they get understanding of certain things like the concept behind rifling so that their weapons have more velocity and stability making them more accurate with greater effective range. Most of the weapons seem pretty close to "smoothbore" as the length of the weapons affects most of their range, besides the Rail weapons they use.

They still arent able to rapidly mass produced their powered exoskeletons, or even make Titans, etc. but they are able to make multiple weapons on their powered armors, a professional force armed with skimmers & railguns, and other things. It doesnt make them superior, but rather they can afford to equip their small forces with advanced tech.

In 1000 years they will be much more advanced, as then you probably will see all they that they are currently missing like Super-heavy Hammerheads, or maybe Warhound sized armors(haha like Voltron), even make their targeting arrays standard issue for regular fire warriors.

For now its too close, and just an argument.

Zweischneid
05-01-2011, 15:40
Well, at least in theory, all 40K factions are roughly equal on the battle-field, representing an aggregate power-level X (which is constant for all faction).

All factions also bring a certain amount of inborn strenght, cunning, skill or other "natural" advantages (like Psychic Powers; Daemonic Gifts, etc..) to the battle-field, which we can call a natural power-level Yi (which is different for each faction i).

X - Yi thus represents the constant overall power of all 40K factions minus the variable part of this power which draws on biological, inborn, psychic, gifted or otherwise non-technological elements. This difference (X - Yi), which we might call "Ti", is than the part of constant aggregate power that a given faction receives from technology. Or, in other words:

X = Yi + Ti with Ti being the variable technological contribution of each faction "i" to its overall power-level.

Therefore, given that all factions operate on a constant (balanced) power-level X in the 40K game, the faction with the smallest possible non-technological power-level Yi is also the most advanced technological race as the contribution based on technology Ti to the constant power-level X must necessarly be the greatest.

Discarding Grots as an independently balanced 40K faction, the physically slowest, weakest, psychically entirely inactive, poor-leadership, non-physically-gifted by Star Gods or Chaos Gods, etc.., race of the Tau must necessarly be the technologically most advanced.

All other factions can be proven to have superiour non-technological abilities they bring to the battlefield. Given that they are balanced overall, their technological advancement as expressed by Ti must thus be smaller.

Still Standing
05-01-2011, 16:09
Void shields, teleportation, real warp travel (or equivalent), power armour (or equivalent - Exarch armour etc), artificially extending life, mass scale artificial genetic manipulation, real rail weaponry - Lances, micro anti-grav devices (even servo skulls float) etc etc.

There are so many things that all the other races have or can do that the Tau have no idea about (no, Crisis Suits are NOT as good as Imperial modular power armour or Eldar Aspect armour). Even the vaunted Tau basic weapon is only a down rated version of the Imperial Plasma gun, which is smaller, more powerful (slightly temperamental because of this), and there are MILLIONS of them in the Imperial Guard. The only reason the Tau stand a chance in hell against any of the other factions is because they are small enough to put all of their most advanced technologies on the front line. When the Eldar or Imperium do this planets and empires vanish from the star map. Lets not even talk about the Necrons.

Retribution
05-01-2011, 17:07
I'd argue that Crisis suits are indeed equivalent, if not superior, to marine and aspect power armor (note that I'm comparing basic armor rather than artificer or exarch armor); the Crisis suit has the same level of durability as marine armor, has jetpacks that give it incredible maneuverability, and it can mount a maximum of three heavy weapons systems; 1-1 i'd argue that a Crisis suit is indeed superior to your basic marine armor

Still Standing
05-01-2011, 17:15
Power armour has modular jump packs, is smaller, can operate for extended periods of time, doesn't reduce the wearers dexterity too much, increases speed and strength (to the point where a Marine does more damage THROWING his bolt pistol in Inquisitor than firing it), and is easy to produce (there are MILLIONS of suits in the Imperium - Marines, Custodes, Sororitas, Inquisitors etc).

Retribution
05-01-2011, 17:24
A Crisis suit also improves strength, speed, and endurance...and it can also operate for extended periods of time. Now if we we're going by true scale i honestly wonder how large a marine would be compared to a Crisis suit (considering tt scale is quite off), given that the Tau are naturally smaller than regular humans. Going by IA:Taros, a Crisis suit is around 8 feet tall, roughly equal to a marine. I imagine dexterity would be fine given the incorporation of anti-grav stabilizers that give the suits impressive agility

UberBeast
05-01-2011, 17:30
According to the DE codex the Eldar Empire at its height captured and harnessed stars for Commoragh, I don't think it specifies whether the DE themselves can still do this, though the impression I got is that no, they can't.



There is a fluff blurb about a Kabal of Dark Eldar who can still capture suns.

Still Standing
05-01-2011, 17:31
A Marine isn't 8 feet tall, he's generally less than 7. Agility and Dexterity are not the same thing. The pilots hands are in the chest area somewhere, and I'm not even sure the arms of the suits can be used to manipulate objects, so there is no way it can manipulate objects in to the same extent as power armour. Also, don't they have to get out of the suits to eat? Not really operating for extended periods of time...

Retribution
05-01-2011, 17:32
A marine being less than 7 feet tall? This is not the 40k i know...


The Space Marines are the most feared and respected of all of Mankind's warriors. Standing over 7' tall due to genetic modification and absolutely lethal from decades of combat training, Space Marines are the ultimate human fighting machines.

ChaosTicket
05-01-2011, 17:34
And so does Imperial Power armor, it even has has range finders(something removed in 3rd edition), Night Vision, probably thermal, and whatever else they can add, as well as being partially linked to the Marines through their Black Carapace. Astartes power armor even probably has a food paste dispenser, and are made to be used for days, even weeks.

the battlesuits the tau use are roughly equivalent, but the Tau still dont have anything to match Tactical dreadnought armor, dreadnoughts, etc.
--------------------------------------
As for Eldar armor, its is quite good, being more flexible and lighter than other armors and does protect well(Imperial Carapace and Aspect armor are roughly the same, but not weight or flexibility), but at the same time much of the higher Eldar personal body armor is heavy enough for Eldar to not be at full speed(Scorpion, Reaper, Spiders) but provide about almost as much protection as Imperial Power Armor.

Retribution
05-01-2011, 17:45
Again, i don't really think Terminators or Dreadnaughts fit into the Tau doctrine of war; what niche would they serve? Terminators and dreadnaughts are generally used to spearhead close range assaults...something the Tau are rather loathe to do

Still Standing
05-01-2011, 17:50
Terminator armour is used to teleport into a dangerous location and then teleport back out before the enemy can counter attack.

Crisis suits are used to jump into a dangerous location and then jump back out before the enemy can counter attack.

I don't really see the difference, except the Terminators do it better. Terminators may also carry 3 weapons - Storm Bolter, Power Fist, Missile Launcher.

Retribution
05-01-2011, 17:58
Terminators most assuredly teleport into the thick of fighting, but they're expected to mow down anything in their path...not retreat. And yes, while terminators are fully capable of carrying three weapons systems, the typical terminator will only carry two (storm bolter + power fist) as heavy and special weapons are issued sparingly among squads. On top of this, fluff-wise, Crisis suits are front-line and mass produced machines of the Tau, whereas Terminator suits are prized relics only used in the most dire circumstances. I think the comparison between the two is rather silly

Still Standing
05-01-2011, 18:25
Doctrinally all Astartes withdraw before the enemy can counter attack. It's the only way such a small force can operate against the overwhelming opposition they contact regularly. You are correct about the comparison between Tac Dreadnought armour and Crisis suits being a silly one. The Crisis suits simply do not compare on a (hypothetical) technological or tactical level. Power Armour is the fairer comparison, and even then, as has been pointed out, the Crisis suit really cannot compare.

I am struggling to find an area that the Tau are more advanced than ANY other race. People point out that Rail Guns are advanced. Well all the other races have machines on the same power level (or higher) (Lascannons, Bright/Dark Lances, that grot teleporter thing Orcs have etc) that is man portable without a rediculously large exoskeleton.

Their vehicles... The Imperium gave up anti-grav on their Leman Russ thousands of years ago in order to allow them to build millions of them, but still build technological wonders like the plasma/tank hunter varients. The Eldar/Dark Eldar vehicles are far more advanced. Orcs are able to repair and rebuild anybody else's technology using their own. Necrons are Necrons.

Basic weaponry you say! Eldar basic weapons are grown, and fire molecule thick ammo, giving them an endless supply of ammunition from 1 magazine (if they even use magazines). Necrons are Necrons. Ork basic weaponry is crap, I'll give you that. Lasguns are probably the most advanced mass produced weapon in the galaxy. Perhaps not technologically (although it still outstrips the pulse rifle) but from a weapon design point of view it is perfection.

AI technology! Eldar don't need it anymore, they strap their dead friends into specially grown machines. Orks would rather use Orks. Necrons ARE AI. The Imperium uses some very advanced AI in it's Titans, but other than that has outlawed it because humanity created AI so advanced it overthrew their empire.

Warp travel without the warp! They only do this because they don't have the technology for true warp travel. They move SLOWLY. Without technology similar to the Imperial Navigators they will forever be stuck using slow and unreliable calculated jumps, and could never create an empire as large as the Imperium because they simply couldn't communicate over it.

Please guys, somebody tell me where the Tau are supposed to be so advanced? I only see a few areas where they are much more advanced than us (bar the whole space ship thing)

samiens
05-01-2011, 18:28
(last time i checked broadsides were pretty tough, and xv9 suits artificially boost toughness even more than a Crisis suit. Not to mention that a crisis suit is stronger than a marine in power armour despite not being designed for close combat)

Plus crisis suits are used for a wider variety of missions than drop attacks- fluffwise they often wait till its dark and fight from extreme range where the Imperium has great difficulty countering them.

Its also worth noting that in the first Tau codex there's a comment on Tau technology that says it matches and occassionally exceeds that of Imperial manufacture (though doesn't respect teh machine spirit yada yada yada) which is written by an admech guy- pretty good primary (fictional) evidence

Warp-Juicer
05-01-2011, 18:38
standard Fluff wise, I agree with the Necrons Eldar Tau lineup. Although I'd say Tau and Eldar are a closer race than the Imperial/Tau one.

After all the new space marine books and gear? It's more like Space Marines, Dark Eldar, Necrons....

Retribution
05-01-2011, 18:38
Doctrinally all Astartes withdraw before the enemy can counter attack. It's the only way such a small force can operate against the overwhelming opposition they contact regularly. You are correct about the comparison between Tac Dreadnought armour and Crisis suits being a silly one. The Crisis suits simply do not compare on a (hypothetical) technological or tactical level. Power Armour is the fairer comparison, and even then, as has been pointed out, the Crisis suit really cannot compare.

Marines retreating? That dishonors teh EMPRAH! And I've quite clearly shown how Crisis suits compare, and excel over marine power armor, if you want to ignore everything I've posted then by all means be my guest. Then again, I'm arguing with someone who believes marines are smaller than 7' tall... And Necrons are not AI...not at all

Korraz
05-01-2011, 18:41
Crisis suits are huge, clunky, probably just as expensive and most likely harder to repair and way more prone to being damaged than PA. And, actually, the match for the Crisis would be the TDA.

Warp-Juicer
05-01-2011, 18:46
Also,

"(although it still outstrips the pulse rifle)" in reference to Las rifles.

How do you figure? what exactly do you mean? Pulse Rifles can punch a hole in a tank if shot at the right facing, las guns can't(well, you could concentrate fire in old rules but I digress)

samiens
05-01-2011, 18:49
Crisis suits are like power armour, the only suit a bit like Terminator armour is the XV9 Hazard suit (designed for close in enegagements etc)

Of course, as the 2 armies fight very differently its very hard to make these analogies anyway

Still Standing
05-01-2011, 18:50
Marines retreating? That dishonors teh EMPRAH!

Marines are a fighting force, like any other. If the tactical situation dictates they withdraw. When you have 100 bodies on the ground, against many times that number, the tactical situation will often say you withdraw. It is not running away, it is sane tactical doctrine (or dogma, however you look at Imperial warfare).


And I've quite clearly shown how Crisis suits compare, and excel over marine power armor, if you want to ignore everything I've posted then by all means be my guest.

Nowhere in the following quotes do you show than Crisis Suits are power advanced or better than imperial powered armour.


I'd argue that Crisis suits are indeed equivalent, if not superior, to marine and aspect power armor (note that I'm comparing basic armor rather than artificer or exarch armor); the Crisis suit has the same level of durability as marine armor, has jetpacks that give it incredible maneuverability, and it can mount a maximum of three heavy weapons systems; 1-1 i'd argue that a Crisis suit is indeed superior to your basic marine armor


A Crisis suit also improves strength, speed, and endurance...and it can also operate for extended periods of time. Now if we we're going by true scale i honestly wonder how large a marine would be compared to a Crisis suit (considering tt scale is quite off), given that the Tau are naturally smaller than regular humans. Going by IA:Taros, a Crisis suit is around 8 feet tall, roughly equal to a marine. I imagine dexterity would be fine given the incorporation of anti-grav stabilizers that give the suits impressive agility


Again, i don't really think Terminators or Dreadnaughts fit into the Tau doctrine of war; what niche would they serve? Terminators and dreadnaughts are generally used to spearhead close range assaults...something the Tau are rather loathe to do


Terminators most assuredly teleport into the thick of fighting, but they're expected to mow down anything in their path...not retreat. And yes, while terminators are fully capable of carrying three weapons systems, the typical terminator will only carry two (storm bolter + power fist) as heavy and special weapons are issued sparingly among squads. On top of this, fluff-wise, Crisis suits are front-line and mass produced machines of the Tau, whereas Terminator suits are prized relics only used in the most dire circumstances. I think the comparison between the two is rather silly

You argue that since they all float they are better. Power armour has modular jump packs. Modularity is better than a fixed configuration. You argue that Crisis suits are as dextrous as power armour. Clearly they are not. You argue that crisis suits are tougher than a human in powered armour. Sure, but they are also 3x the size. I am not sure which leg you are trying to stand on.


Then again, I'm arguing with someone who believes marines are smaller than 7' tall...

This changes all the time. At one time Marines were regular humans giving a bit of genetic tinkering, hypno-indoctrination and a concoction of drugs to make a Wych blush. Now they seem to be walking tanks. Guess which makes more sense.


And Necrons are not AI...not at all

They had their consciousness transferred to an artificial body. They are no longer the Necrontyr. They are long dead. The Necrons are AI with the thoughts and memories of a long dead race.



Also,

"(although it still outstrips the pulse rifle)" in reference to Las rifles.

How do you figure? what exactly do you mean? Pulse Rifles can punch a hole in a tank if shot at the right facing, las guns can't(well, you could concentrate fire in old rules but I digress)

I'll quote myself from earlier in the thread...



Actually, the Imperial Guard do. The lasgun is 100% accurate, has no recoil, holds thousands of shots per power pack, can be recharged by throwing it in a fire, has no mussel flash, can be adapted to be almost silent and the shot invisible and doesn't mind being used as a club. It can be made out of almost any material, and powered by almost any power source. Also, it's so simple that a feral worlder has no problem using it. Best of all though, there are untold BILLIONS of them.

On top of that, turn up the power settings and you get a Hell Gun. The hell gun will punch through a suit of power armour (or Crisis Suit if you like).

Aliarzathanil
05-01-2011, 18:56
Marines retre(ahem), I mean fall back all the time.

They're actually the only army that has a rule to represent it.

Korraz
05-01-2011, 19:04
Also,

"(although it still outstrips the pulse rifle)" in reference to Las rifles.

How do you figure? what exactly do you mean? Pulse Rifles can punch a hole in a tank if shot at the right facing, las guns can't(well, you could concentrate fire in old rules but I digress)

Lasguns aren't really well depicted in the game. In High Power they can blow up someone's head, after all. But whatcha gonna do. Space Marine PA isn't either. Watcha gonna do, game balance.

Retribution
05-01-2011, 19:22
Crisis suits are huge, clunky, probably just as expensive and most likely harder to repair and way more prone to being damaged than PA. And, actually, the match for the Crisis would be the TDA.
Again, look at their dimensions in IA, they're roughly equivalent to Marine armor, and described as extremely agile...the opposite of clunky

Retribution
05-01-2011, 19:24
Marines are a fighting force, like any other. If the tactical situation dictates they withdraw. When you have 100 bodies on the ground, against many times that number, the tactical situation will often say you withdraw. It is not running away, it is sane tactical doctrine (or dogma, however you look at Imperial warfare).

Nowhere in the following quotes do you show than Crisis Suits are power advanced or better than imperial powered armour.

You argue that since they all float they are better. Power armour has modular jump packs. Modularity is better than a fixed configuration. You argue that Crisis suits are as dextrous as power armour. Clearly they are not. You argue that crisis suits are tougher than a human in powered armour. Sure, but they are also 3x the size. I am not sure which leg you are trying to stand on.

This changes all the time. At one time Marines were regular humans giving a bit of genetic tinkering, hypno-indoctrination and a concoction of drugs to make a Wych blush. Now they seem to be walking tanks. Guess which makes more sense.

They had their consciousness transferred to an artificial body. They are no longer the Necrontyr. They are long dead. The Necrons are AI with the thoughts and memories of a long dead race.

I'll quote myself from earlier in the thread...

On top of that, turn up the power settings and you get a Hell Gun. The hell gun will punch through a suit of power armour (or Crisis Suit if you like).

Crisis Suits, aside from jet-pack configurations, are as modular as they come...have you seen the options and wargear available to them in Codex: Tau? A Crisis suit is just as tough as marine Power armor, stronger than marine armor, greatly increases the users endurance and speed, is incredibly agile, and includes built-in night vision and range finding gear. A Crisis suit allows the wearer to utilized three special / heavy weapons at once, a standard marine is limited to one special / heavy weapon. In all areas the Crisis suit is either equal or superior. Now about size, Crisis Suits are not 3x larger, again, look at the IA: Taros for exact specifications. Necrons are organic intelligences in artificial bodies, which is not the same as AI

Warp-Juicer
05-01-2011, 19:29
aahhh straight from an imperial primer.
Some things to address here: recharging your pack in a fire, while seemingly nifty, will considerably damage the capacity and safety of your rifle.

Also, hot-shot packs(the dialing up you mentioned) are one shot deals. Thats why Hell-gun equipped models have a backpack powersource of some sorts!

Anyways, they've never described any special features of the pulse rifle(other thian its pulsey-ness and its rifleness, and the ability for it to come in carbine form with an attached grenade launcher) except in the Rogue Trader RPG, but take that fluff as you will. I'd say the only real thing the Las gun has on the Pulse weapon is ammo capacity.

Still Standing
05-01-2011, 19:35
A lot of that wargear comes as standard for power armour, or is able to be added in, such as force fields. Even if the suit is not a great deal taller (which the models are), they are far wider and deeper. A crisis suit cannot manipulate objects. That might not seem like a hug disadvantage, but it means he can't eat, reload, go through doors, apply first aid to his comrades, search enemy casualties, operate machinery that is vital in a warzone (airborne contaminant detectors for example). He can't repair damage to his suit, he can't save the life of a friend who's suit is damaged, he can't do ANYTHING except fire his weapon. A crisis suit makes for a terrible soldier.

Retribution
05-01-2011, 19:39
You seem to forget that Crisis Suits always work in tandem with other Tau forces that CAN do all of those things. A Crisis team does exactly what it's supposed to do within a Tau force, they aren't medics, or engineers.

Korraz
05-01-2011, 19:45
Again, look at their dimensions in IA, they're roughly equivalent to Marine armor, and described as extremely agile...the opposite of clunky

The only IA book I own is the one I need for my Reaver. Would you please show me this picture?

Still Standing
05-01-2011, 19:47
You seem to forget that Crisis Suits always work in tandem with other Tau forces that CAN do all of those things. A Crisis team does exactly what it's supposed to do within a Tau force, they aren't medics, or engineers.

Neither am I, yet if I need to, I can.

Heinlein said "A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects."

He was wrong. People should specialise. SOLDIERS should not specialise. Everybody must be able to do everything, at least to a certain extent. That's why the good armies of today are good, and why they work so well. The same will be true in the future.

Retribution
05-01-2011, 19:50
Neither am I, yet if I need to, I can.

Heinlein said "A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects."

He was wrong. People should specialise. SOLDIERS should not specialise. Everybody must be able to do everything, at least to a certain extent. That's why the good armies of today are good, and why they work so well. The same will be true in the future.

I would agree if this discussion was about reality; unfortunately we're talking about 40k and a fictional alien combat doctrine. The Tau are entirely about specialization, and all Tau units operate in tandem with a unit specialized for any possibility

Retribution
05-01-2011, 19:52
The only IA book I own is the one I need for my Reaver. Would you please show me this picture?
It's not a simple comparison picture, it's exact dimensions. Now i have to concede that a Crisis suit would be slightly wider and deeper, but the sizes are roughly the same rather than an order of magnitude larger

ChaosTicket
05-01-2011, 20:37
As a comparaison remember the difference between POWERED ARMOR and POWERED EXOSKELETON.

the small battlesuits like the "old" stealth suits and some of the experimental Commander suits are powered armor with many of the things that Astartes armor have. But the Crisis suits, Broadsides and other Medium and heavy suits are instead powered exoskeletons, basically robots with internal pilots. Unit wise they are so strong and tough because they are not the Tau pilots, but rather these machines. Battlesuits can carry so much, not because they are better, but bigger and without the Tau strengthlimiting what they can carry. tactical dreadnought armor can have back mounted weapon thanks to their size, while still mobile, but their heavy protection doesnt allow jump packs, while the Battlesuits can again because they are more like robots than armor, and with lower protection.

madden
05-01-2011, 21:09
Battle suits can manipulate things as they have retactable hands on the models and fluff if not how dose farsight hold his sword. Tec wise I think for personal weapons it goes to tau larger stuff imperium, as to the op necrons best over all tec and eldar for logic etc though comparing aliens to humans can't really be done as they should think in diffrent terms and perspectives.

RobPro
05-01-2011, 21:29
Someone earlier posted that necrons have had millions of years over the tau to develop their tech, which is not entirely true. It isn't known how long the necrons took to develop their tech initially, but they haven't advanced at all since the Ctan gave them metal bodies. That's 60 million years of laying dormant without one new idea (aside from the machinations of thr ctan which is a horse of a different color). Plenty of time for the younger races to catch up if they really tried ;)

Hellebore
05-01-2011, 23:02
The only IA book I own is the one I need for my Reaver. Would you please show me this picture?

It says a battlesuit is 1.9 metres wide, 1.7 metres deep and 2.8 metres tall. A space marine is between 7' and 8' tall, which translates to ~2.1-2.4 metres. This means the average space marine is about a head shorter than a tau battlesuit, in the same way that a 6' human is around a head shorter than a marine. A terminator is going to mass around the same as a battlesuit. Which is pretty impressive.

As the average tau is given to be only around 5' tall -1.5 metres, a 2.8 metre battlesuit is almost twice their own height.

Battlesuits are however fundamentally different to a suit of powered armour. They certainly have some advanced systems that I would consider better than a space marine's armour, but there are others they don't.

For example, human power armour is 'skintight' in that it wraps around the limbs and is only a few mm thick (the whole 'inches' thick thing is hyperbole because there's no way a person could wear that properly). The strength augmentation and protective ability of the suit is remarkable given its size. A battlesuit is a robot that a tau sits inside, so it doesn't require that kind of miniaturisation.

But the battlesuit has the advantage of being more like a walker (sentinel) than a suit of armour so it can mount more equipment. Piloting a robot as opposed to wearing a suit. But that's because they are pretty different pieces of technology.

Battlesuits are vehicles with pilots inside whilst powered armour is a suit of armour the person wears, carrying it themselves and moving it.

Sometimes I think the fact that GW decided to give battlesuits normal infantry stats confuses people on what they actually are.

Hellebore

Korraz
06-01-2011, 00:01
Thank you Hellebore.

I stand by it. 1,9x1,7x2,8 sounds huge and clunky to me. And 40cm, at least, is still quite a difference.

Hellebore
06-01-2011, 00:03
What I find pretty cool is that a human space marine is in the same scale as a tau battlesuit. That a marine wearing terminator armour is the size of a tau robot battlesuit.

If only they'd actually scaled the models correctly. Seeing terminators the size of battlesuits would look amazing. And scary.

Hellebore

Still Standing
06-01-2011, 00:05
If only they'd actually scaled the models correctly. Seeing terminators the size of battlesuits would look amazing. And scary.

Hellebore

I wonder if their arms would still protrude from their heads?

Retribution
06-01-2011, 00:15
I understand the differences between exoskelatons and powered-armor, but the battlesuit is still the Tau's closest equivalent to powered armor (though stealth suits are arguably power armor themselves)

Hellebore
06-01-2011, 00:18
The older stealth suits were easy to see how they functioned. The newer ones, I'm not sure exactly how they get their bodies into them.

But yes, a stealth suit augments strength and is roughly 'tau' sized. So they possess some of the same technologies seen in human power armour.

Hellebore

Retribution
06-01-2011, 00:19
I really hope the new Tau codex delves into how exactly the suits work and how the Tau pilot / wear them. Beyond IA we're rather lacking in information, really

Still Standing
06-01-2011, 00:33
The problem with IA is that often they do not think through the stuff they type. For example, in the Taros campaign they explain that the Raptors are dropped into battle with 60 rounds. And they are somehow able to fight for hours and days with this ammunition? If would make far more sense, considering their size and strength, for them to carry hundreds of rounds. Todays soldier will carry 600-1000 rounds on top of 40kg of equipment. A Marine should carry at LEAST that in bolt rounds, even if they are bigger and heavier. Marines are bigger and heavier.

I am not bashing IA. I own all the IA books except the newest one (Badab pt 2, not gotten around to buying it), but sometimes they are more story than "fact".

Retribution
06-01-2011, 00:40
The problem with IA is that often they do not think through the stuff they type. For example, in the Taros campaign they explain that the Raptors are dropped into battle with 60 rounds. And they are somehow able to fight for hours and days with this ammunition? If would make far more sense, considering their size and strength, for them to carry hundreds of rounds. Todays soldier will carry 600-1000 rounds on top of 40kg of equipment. A Marine should carry at LEAST that in bolt rounds, even if they are bigger and heavier. Marines are bigger and heavier.

I am not bashing IA. I own all the IA books except the newest one (Badab pt 2, not gotten around to buying it), but sometimes they are more story than "fact".
True, I remember how a Land Raider was supposed to be equal to 100 (or was it 300?) mm of steel...which was somehow supposed to be incredible. Still, it's better than most GW stuff for information on xeno's

Hellebore
06-01-2011, 01:57
The problem with IA is that often they do not think through the stuff they type. For example, in the Taros campaign they explain that the Raptors are dropped into battle with 60 rounds. And they are somehow able to fight for hours and days with this ammunition? If would make far more sense, considering their size and strength, for them to carry hundreds of rounds. Todays soldier will carry 600-1000 rounds on top of 40kg of equipment. A Marine should carry at LEAST that in bolt rounds, even if they are bigger and heavier. Marines are bigger and heavier.

I am not bashing IA. I own all the IA books except the newest one (Badab pt 2, not gotten around to buying it), but sometimes they are more story than "fact".

Are you saying this to dispute the size of a battlesuit?

I agree on many things, as you say 60 rounds is no where near enough.

However, if you look at a battlesuit compared to a tau in the art and miniatures (yes, may not be to scale) and measure from the fact that a tau is only around 5 feet tall, those battlesuits are comparatively HUGE to them.

Say we increased them to 3 metres tall (10 feet). That's twice the height and 4 times the volume of a tau in the battlesuit. Which is pretty massive.

So I don't think that in this case the sizes are particularly small or incorrect. To a tau a battlesuit is massive. Small cars today are 3 metres long and you can fit 4 people in side them, obviously because they're design that way.

That size is suitably large enough to the tau themselves for it to be a feasible size. If tau were 7 foot tall it would be silly, but as they are quite small it isn't.

It's just that marines are designed to be large and terminator armour larger, so if they're taller than a normal human they dwarf a tau. Which means comparatively what is a giant and spectacular battlesuit isn't much larger than what a space marine wears.

That just shows the size difference between them rather than necessarily proving that battlesuits are too small.

Hellebore

Still Standing
06-01-2011, 02:17
It was more a statement of general observation, rather than any specific note on the size of Crisis suits.

Korraz
06-01-2011, 10:10
Maybe you should say "stealth suit" and "crisis", to avoid confusion.

hungry hungry hormagaunt
06-01-2011, 10:17
Sidestepping the Imperium vs Tau dickwaving and answering the question in the original post...

Leaving aside Daemons and Tyranids (which don't really have technology as we understand it), the Old Ones were the most technologically advanced race, but they're supposedly extinct now. Of currently surviving races, the Necrons are clear leaders of the pack, with the Dark Eldar a distant (but still impressive) second, and the Craftworld Eldar a close third.

Sure, there are things the Craftworlders can do that the Dark Eldar can't, but these are mostly based around psychic tech that the DE could use if they wanted to take the ludicrous risk of using psychic powers in Commoragh.

After that, it's hard to say, but I'd probably place Tau and the Imperium about equal and leave the Orks off the chart entirely since, while they can make some astonishing things, it's not clear whether it works because it's built to work or because the highly psychic Orks are absolutely sure it will work.

Intellectual advancement is a harder question to answer. The question of single smartest entity in the universe is a close-run fight between Tzeentch, the Deceiver, the Laughing God, and the Tyranid Hive Mind. The Emperor and the Primarchs were also pretty smart by all accounts, as were the Old Ones. But a more pertinent question is which species is most intelligent.

Leaving aside the Tyranids again (because of conflicts between long-established canon and the fluff in the most recent book) and the Old Ones (extinct), I'd say it's probably the Eldar. While the Necrons are the current most technologically advanced force in the galaxy, there's little evidence that individual Necrons are actually all that clever. Eldar leave humans in the dust, and the Tau are about as clever as humans on the whole. The only group of beings I think are likely to be more intelligent than Eldar are the Daemons of Tzeentch, and they're not really a species so much as a meme.

As for which group of Eldar - the Craftworlders artificially limit themselves with the paths system, but the Exodites, Harlequins and Dark Eldar are all on about the same level. If the fluff in the DE rulebook is to be believed, this probably makes Asdrubael Vect the single smartest living mortal.

Returning to the Tyranids, the issue I'm talking about is the intelligence of individual entities like Hive Tyrants. They used to be mere nodes within the gestalt might of the Hive Mind, their massive brains not thinking for themselves as an individual entity but rather contributing to the Hive Mind's unified consciousness. Under the current fluff, however, Hive Tyrants are implied to be highly intelligent in their own right, able to learn and reason independently of the Hive Mind, and function much as battlefield commanders in any other army. Some, such as the Swarmlord, are exceptionally talented to the point where the Hive Mind keeps recreating them if they die, and might even have developed something resembling a personality.

Under the old canon, the Tyranids can be discounted entirely from any comparison of intelligence between alien species, since they have no minds of their own - things like Hormagaunts are about as smart as bees if you isolate them from the psychic presence of the Hive Mind, while Hive Tyrants and the like were completely inseparable from it - it makes no sense to speak of the intelligence of an individual Hive Tyrant since there was no such thing as an "individual Hive Tyrant", only a part of the Hive Mind. Under the new canon, Hive Tyrants are individuals, and are as capable at directing an army as the best Eldar tacticians (without the benefit of future sight, but with the benefit of a direct psychic link to every Tyranid organism within the swarm). However, they're utterly useless at anything other than leading an army. The Hive Mind could probably grow a Tyrant-analogue to out-do the best member of any other race at any given intellectual pursuit, should it wish to. However, all it's designed such creatures for so far is the art of war - so I still say the Eldar win out over the Tyranids on the basis of breadth of talents if not depth.

Hellebore
06-01-2011, 11:17
Think about orks like this.

They and the eldar have existed for 60 million years side by side. The orks have survived whatever the galaxy has thrown at them for the last 60 million years.

The eldar empire was at its zenith 1 million years ago (codex eldar) which meant it existed in a pre zenith state for an unknown time before that. The eldar empire extended from the eye of terror out to the eastern and southern edges of the galaxy (the maiden worlds the exodites live on were the last projects undertaken before the Fall by the eldar at the very edges of their empire).

The eldar could steal suns (codex dark eldar) and perform all sorts of ridiculous feats.

Yet the Orks survived. They survived despite being a race psychologically addicted to warfare, where they would need to fight everything they could find. The eldar were the biggest and most powerful force in the galaxy for more than 1 million years, making them the juiciest target for the orks to fight.

So how advanced are the orks? IMO their technology is about as advanced as their enemies', always keeping pace to ensure they get a good fight. They survived 1 million years of 'sun stealing eldar domination' without going extinct, so their technology can't be that bad.

Hellebore

Stonerhino
06-01-2011, 11:27
Leaving aside Daemons and Tyranids (which don't really have technology as we understand it), the Old Ones were the most technologically advanced race, but they're supposedly extinct now. Just to touch on this.

The Necrontyr where more technologically advanced then the Old Ones at the start of the war in heaven. The first start where the Necrontyr got their buts kicked.

Something said ealier about warp travel being so good. The Necron's FTL drives are faster then the Eldar/Old One's webway. So it's faster then the fastest warp based system and does not use the warp at all.

SteelTitan
06-01-2011, 11:32
On a scale of civilatory evolution? A non-exhaustive approximation: ...

01. - Chaos Daemons (ca. 2020 A.D.). - We're the internets come alive: humanities vilest wishes for all to see: Advancement by jumping the barrier from "virtual reflection" to become the real thing.. and going for our creators.

This was an awesome read! I love how you managed to compare the two! Very interesting!

dragonet111
06-01-2011, 11:34
Is there a source describing the tech level of the Orks before the disappearance of Brainboyz?
IIRC the Krork empire was pretty powerful.

Korraz
06-01-2011, 13:21
Without the Brainboyz, Orks aren't advanced at all. Sure, they keep pace with everybody, but only because they were designed to make everything work. They don't really advance or develop something. A Mek has an idea, slaps it together and calls it a day. They don't have to make anything work, because it just works. Their intelectual advancement can be summed up by the insight of the greatest Orkosoph ever:
"Orks are da best.
Orks are Green.
Because of that, Green is da best.
Orks are Green.
Because of that, Orks are da best."

Sile
06-01-2011, 14:01
Necrons by a league.

I can't remember which book it was - I think it's either the 'cron dex, or one of them Uriel Ventris books, but when they're inside a tomb world the interior is in an alternate time space continium. Kind of like a dyson sphere?

That pretty much trumps everything imo, considering if every tomb world is the same.

jt.glass
06-01-2011, 14:11
X = Yi + Ti with Ti being the variable technological contribution of each faction "i" to its overall power-levelTwo problems with your theorem: It only considers technology that directly affects the battlefield once combat is joined (whereas the IoM's biggest advantages are mostly in things which have limited or no effect in that area). Second, it doesn't take into account numbers!

Obviously, there is a third problem that doesn't need stating! EDIT: And a fourth!


Again, i don't really think Terminators or Dreadnaughts fit into the Tau doctrine of war; what niche would they serve? Terminators and dreadnaughts are generally used to spearhead close range assaults...something the Tau are rather loathe to doWhat purpose could TDA suits serve? How about protecting their *********** occupants?


It's not a simple comparison picture, it's exact dimensions. Now i have to concede that a Crisis suit would be slightly wider and deeper, but the sizes are roughly the same rather than an order of magnitude largerEr, no one was sugesting Crisis Suits were 10 or 100 times bigger. As I have already pointed out, the Tau lack the technology to make walker that big.


Sidestepping the Imperium vs Tau dickwaving and answering the question in the original post...No dickwaving here. Just trying to get to the truth!


jt.

TheLaughingGod
07-01-2011, 00:14
I'm still curious why people are saying the Necrons have the best technology?
Based on what??

-Loki-
07-01-2011, 01:15
Yet the Orks survived. They survived despite being a race psychologically addicted to warfare, where they would need to fight everything they could find. The eldar were the biggest and most powerful force in the galaxy for more than 1 million years, making them the juiciest target for the orks to fight.

So how advanced are the orks? IMO their technology is about as advanced as their enemies', always keeping pace to ensure they get a good fight. They survived 1 million years of 'sun stealing eldar domination' without going extinct, so their technology can't be that bad.

Hellebore

That doesn't mean their technology is good. It's actually pretty awful. It works because the power of Waaagh makes it work, which has nothing to do with their technology being good again, and everything to do with how they were created. Their survival is also based not on their own technology, but on how they were created, being a very hardy race that reproduces constantly by dropping spores.

ForgottenLore
07-01-2011, 01:18
I's also suggest that Ork technology advances or retards depending on who they are fighting most often in a given region.

TheLaughingGod
07-01-2011, 01:29
That doesn't mean their technology is good. It's actually pretty awful. It works because the power of Waaagh makes it work, which has nothing to do with their technology being good again, and everything to do with how they were created. Their survival is also based not on their own technology, but on how they were created, being a very hardy race that reproduces constantly by dropping spores.

Uh, you realize that "Clap your hands if you believe" is entirely fanon right? That's not in the fluff. It's the crazy opinion of ONE Magos, who doesn't even say that everything is magic, just that SOME of the more advanced things don't break when they should.

Stupidest rumor ever to be perpetuated.

Still Standing
07-01-2011, 01:44
Uh, you realize that "Clap your hands if you believe" is entirely fanon right? That's not in the fluff. It's the crazy opinion of ONE Magos, who doesn't even say that everything is magic, just that SOME of the more advanced things don't break when they should.

Stupidest rumor ever to be perpetuated.

He had no idea how it worked, therefore it probably worked because the Orks thought it did. Perhaps he just didn't know how it worked...

Jonny100
07-01-2011, 02:03
I'm still curious why people are saying the Necrons have the best technology?
Based on what??

Self repairing troops, weapons that rip it's victims apart at an atomic level and the ability to travel through vast distances of space without the aid of the warp to name a few.

Hellebore
07-01-2011, 02:16
That doesn't mean their technology is good. It's actually pretty awful. It works because the power of Waaagh makes it work, which has nothing to do with their technology being good again, and everything to do with how they were created. Their survival is also based not on their own technology, but on how they were created, being a very hardy race that reproduces constantly by dropping spores.

They have the most advanced force field technology of any species, or at least did in earlier editions. Traktor kannons, pulsa rokkits and the ability to place force fields on space hulks from a planet's surface and teleporting troops onto them.

That's how orks get onto space hulks.

Anzion's Theory doesn't say their psychic field makes all their technology work and it never has.

At most the psychic field is a 'lubricant' that gets gears turning better than without it. In the RPG ork weapons are unreliable (so they jam more often) when wielded by non orks, but they still work.

As to ork reproduction, the eldar produced a technology used in the superheavy void spinner that incorporates monfilament and wraithbone organisms. This was used to strip worlds of all organic matter so they could be terraformed (eldarformed?). If they released that onto an ork world it would destroy all ork spores and all organic material they rely on.

The orks at the moment possess technology that immitates in many ways imperial technology.

Their gargants are inspired by imperial titans. If they were fighting eldar 1 million years ago, what kind of technology would they have? If a warlord titan inspires a great gargant, what would a super sun eating death robot from the future inspire?

Obviously something that prevented the eldar simply exterminating them.

Hellebore

ChaosTicket
07-01-2011, 05:06
Orks still can make freakishly advanced tech like those force fields, tracktor beams, etc. but its been limited because like many things "GW SAYS SO"!

One example of their traktor fields was that they could have small frigate sized craft pull much larger capital ship sized craft towards them to board the ships in BFG.

Sparowl
07-01-2011, 06:17
Let's not forget Shokk Attack Guns, which generate semi-stable portals through the warp, an ability that no one can figure out.

But then again, this is the race that hollows out asteroids to make their ships.

ChaosTicket
07-01-2011, 06:24
That isnt exactly a downside. a Asteroid, which also includes many different advaned technology from what its made of, could have massive weapons and shield loadout. Star Bases are limited to 1 per marine chapter, but orks have have possibly dozens of Space Hulks carrying milllions, even billions of orks.

How many other races can weaponise, shield, and make mobile Space Hulks?

Oh and dont forget that orks have Tellyportas. When GW EVENTUALLY brings those rules to the mainstream orks, then finally we'll see teleporting Mega Armor Nobz.

Axeman1n
07-01-2011, 06:43
I cast my stone for the Orks as well. They have evolved so far that they do not need to "tech up" any more. They exist to fight for pleasure alone. In a lot of ways the have reached civilization end game.

insectum7
07-01-2011, 07:38
Let's not forget Shokk Attack Guns, which generate semi-stable portals through the warp, an ability that no one can figure out.


You mean like Eldar with warp gates or the Imperium with Teleporters?



How many other races can weaponise, shield, and make mobile Space Hulks?


Imperium certainly could. Eldar built whole Craftworlds, I imagine they could trick out a space rock if they felt the need to.

ChaosTicket
07-01-2011, 09:07
Those are different from the shokk guns, which are, basically longer lasting and longer ranged versions of the Eldar D cannons.

Shokk guns are two-way portals, and are hand held, while opening minature warp portals, that are relatively safe. Eldar Webway portals are like narrow platform highways that only link to other webway portals. Shokk guns operate instant portals ANYWHERE.

Imperial teleporters arent based on the warp. They are advanced tech but arent daemon derived.

Hellebore
07-01-2011, 10:00
Imperial teleporters send people through the warp in the same way imperial space ships travel through the warp to get to their destinations quicker.

Hellebore

Memnos
07-01-2011, 10:14
Those are different from the shokk guns, which are, basically longer lasting and longer ranged versions of the Eldar D cannons.

Shokk guns are two-way portals, and are hand held, while opening minature warp portals, that are relatively safe. Eldar Webway portals are like narrow platform highways that only link to other webway portals. Shokk guns operate instant portals ANYWHERE.

Imperial teleporters arent based on the warp. They are advanced tech but arent daemon derived.

You do raise a good point. I hadn't considered that the Orks can do things that are technological marvels above what most others can.

Necrons have developed true nanite repair bots(Resurrection orb).

Necrons have developed perfect teleportation(The Monolith can bring a unit through space to an exact point, without failure).

Necrons have developed true FTL, rather than space folding via the Warp, technology.

Necrons have developed true Immortality as they will be rebuilt regardless of how catastrophic the damage is and have lasted not thousands or tens of thousands or even hundreds of thousands of years, but millions of years.

They have personal handheld weapons capable of harming starcraft and titans.

They can have golden bodies, which is admittedly pretty pimp.

They have Flayed Ones, which can apparently get really close to people because they strip the flesh from their bones, cover themselves in the bloody strips of meat, and walk forward saying "Flesh-things! We are your loved ones. Do not shoot at us. We are flesh-things, too."

And it works. And they get Infiltrate because of it. If that ain't some kinda super-hyper-mega-mind-control ray, I don't know what is.

Iracundus
07-01-2011, 11:30
The "immortality" of Necrons and their constructs is debateable as the fact we see tombs in disrepair means their preservation and repair technology is not infallible or eternal. Also, the fact that a Deathwatch team saw a Necron torso phase back to the tomb, minus head and limbs, suggests even Necron bodies are not immortal. After all if parts of a Necron can be destroyed to the point where it is beyond recovery, then conceivably so can the entire Necron if hit by a sufficiently powerful weapon.

RobPro
07-01-2011, 11:43
Sadly, recent necron fluff seems to be taking a different (dumber) direction than older fluff. Not that their fluff was the best ever, but some consistency would be nice. I liked the Lovecraftian/Dune horror theme the robots had going for them.

Zweischneid
07-01-2011, 12:02
Sadly, recent necron fluff seems to be taking a different (dumber) direction than older fluff. Not that their fluff was the best ever, but some consistency would be nice. I liked the Lovecraftian/Dune horror theme the robots had going for them.

Maybe. I also liked the days when half-Eldar Marine Librarians flew around in anti-grav tanks and Tyranids were slave-trading merchant-pirates.

But if everyone's cherrypicking their personal preference from outdated, intermediate or current fluff, the discussion's not gonna get easier.

I'd therefore suggest sticking with the most current canon assuming changes that were made, were made for a reason (whether or not you like them).

Sparowl
07-01-2011, 13:50
That isnt exactly a downside. a Asteroid, which also includes many different advaned technology from what its made of, could have massive weapons and shield loadout. Star Bases are limited to 1 per marine chapter, but orks have have possibly dozens of Space Hulks carrying milllions, even billions of orks.

How many other races can weaponise, shield, and make mobile Space Hulks?

Oh and dont forget that orks have Tellyportas. When GW EVENTUALLY brings those rules to the mainstream orks, then finally we'll see teleporting Mega Armor Nobz.

Actually, I meant literal asteroids, not Space Hulks. Ork Roks are pretty much a hollowed out hunk of rock with an engine, that you crash into other things. Little Ships, Big Ships, Planets...

Space Hulks are pretty rad also, although that's less Ork engineering, and most Ork Hardness, as they less build hulks, and more reclaim them from space.

ChaosTicket
07-01-2011, 17:45
Again roks are great, mobile weapon platforms that can become ready-made frotresses when they land and have heavy firepower, durability, etc.

Remember that Space Hulks are massive asteroids that are combined from ships and masses of meteors, drifting debris, etc that entered the warp and came out fused together. Orks can clear them out of whatever they can like genestealers, carve them up, add engines, weapons, etc and make space fortresses.

RobPro
08-01-2011, 02:02
I'd therefore suggest sticking with the most current canon assuming changes that were made, were made for a reason (whether or not you like them).

I guess I should rephrase... I like the actual Necron codex fluff better than the random fluff they are putting in other armies codices/40k novels? If they want to change the story, they should just put out a new codex.

Still Standing
08-01-2011, 03:45
Again roks are great, mobile weapon platforms that can become ready-made frotresses when they land and have heavy firepower, durability, etc.

Remember that Space Hulks are massive asteroids that are combined from ships and masses of meteors, drifting debris, etc that entered the warp and came out fused together. Orks can clear them out of whatever they can like genestealers, carve them up, add engines, weapons, etc and make space fortresses.

So can everybody else. Never played Space Hulk?

Stonerhino
08-01-2011, 07:58
Sadly, recent necron fluff seems to be taking a different (dumber) direction than older fluff. Not that their fluff was the best ever, but some consistency would be nice. I liked the Lovecraftian/Dune horror theme the robots had going for them.If you are refering to the fluff in the rule book. You have to remember that that is an example of a tomb world where the highest ranking Necron Lord is not a military leader. The current Fluff from codices like the Blood Angel's show that the Necron indead have military leaders on par with the best the IoM can bring. IE Dante vs the Silent King.

Pontiff
08-01-2011, 08:36
The entire Standard Template Construct system is a technobabble gimmick created explicitly to explain how the Imperium can build things without understanding the science or technology behind them.


Actually more of gimmick to justify why in a million worlds all the armies have the same looking tanks, lasguns etc... it otherwise makes it a bit mental that thousands of civilisations have completley paralell evolution /inventions.

If you're going to make a plastic rhino kit in 1987 and want to sell thousands its a good way of explaining why *everyone* has them and they are better than using that converted Star Wars toy minirig :)

There you go cynical as ever me...

Sorrow Seer
08-01-2011, 09:22
Not the only reason, it means the tech is compatable across the board (well, galaxy) one reason the AK-47 was so good was it could use parts and stuff from a factory on the other side of the world with no issues.

lolcat
08-01-2011, 12:17
I am not overly familiar with Eldar and Dark Eldar, but could either be considered more technologically advanced than the other?

At a glance Dark Eldar seem to have a greater understanding of dimensional travel/manipulation (warptravel & shattershards), posses things such as darklight weaponry and physiology as well as seemingly greater command of pre-fall Eldar technology.

On the other hand craftworlders have things such as wraithbone and wraithgaurds.

Overall, not being a foremost expert i can't say whether these technological discrepancies are a result of innovation and advancement or societal taboos.

Still Standing
08-01-2011, 15:42
I imagine all four of the Eldar aspects (Craftworld, Dark, Exodite and Harlequin) have access to the same technologies, they simply don't use some because they have no need, or it is too dangerous. Dark Eldar can't use Wrathbone because it requires huge amounts of psychic energy to make, being a good example. There is no reason why Craftworld Eldar wouldn't know everything about pre-Fall technology - if you were leaving on a ship the size of a small moon, wouldn't you download Encyclopedia Eldarica?

ChaosTicket
08-01-2011, 15:53
Well yes, Eldar and Exodites in particular refuse to use pre-fall tech because its part of the Decadence that led to the fall. The Dark Eldar are decadent so use all sorts of the freakish technology, it doesnt mean that others cant use it but rather REFUSE to.

Pontiff makes a point. STCs allow standardising(its in the made for sheep's sake) of technology and it can be widespread. Some worlds can improve on aspects of the design and others might have to improvise, and example is Ryza which uses Plasma Blastguns instead of Volcano Cannons on their Shadowswords to make Stormswords.

Sgt John Keel
08-01-2011, 21:51
There are many myths of "lost technology", but the truth is, while in many of these cases, we do not know the original methods (with any certainty, at least), we are capable of closely reproducing the result.

Which, I think, I said. The point being that while the Imperium might not be able to reproduce certain classes of battleships, they may be able to make another class that covers their needs (and not the needs of a M.25 star faring civilisation).

Shamana
08-01-2011, 21:54
Well yes, Eldar and Exodites in particular refuse to use pre-fall tech because its part of the Decadence that led to the fall. The Dark Eldar are decadent so use all sorts of the freakish technology, it doesnt mean that others cant use it but rather REFUSE to.

Is there any proof of this? Because I rather doubt craftworlders would shun technology when their space elven gonads are at stake, and they often are. If anything, I think they just don't have the technological base to make use of the know-how anymore. Remember, the craftworlds were originally trade vessels. Just prior to the Fall, they were filled to the brim with refugees - I think it's rather unlikely that they also carried all necessary machinery to keep up their technological level.

ChaosTicket
08-01-2011, 22:04
Oh you mean their soul stealing technology perhaps?

As for it, the Eldar live a relatively "monkish" life witholding from certain things like I doubt youll see a "good" eldar getting hammered then taking a bunch of slave women, but foor Dark Eldar that's part of being a decadent Dark Lord.

This does ask if Eldar had some sort of STC system. The Infinity Matrix itself has thousands even millions, possibly billions of souls providing possible sources of technology, not to mention the fact that the Eldar are almost immortal, so being alive 10000 years ago would be possible, even likely that they have some Eldar scientists making "new" eldar technology since the fall.

Still Standing
08-01-2011, 22:16
As far as we know the only Eldar alive "now" that were alive at the time of the Fall are Vect and Eldrad Uthuan. Vect doesn't really count, since Dark Eldar artificially extend their lives through the use of other peoples souls, so that really only leaves Eldrad as the only Eldar who has lived naturally since the time of the Fall.

But, this does prove that it is POSSIBLE for them to live that long, leading to the assumption that given the almost unlimited time they have to work with, there is no reason why their scientists couldn't figure out and use any of their pre-fall technology, especially on the Craftworlds or in Dark Cities.

insectum7
08-01-2011, 23:08
Is there any proof of this? Because I rather doubt craftworlders would shun technology when their space elven gonads are at stake, and they often are. If anything, I think they just don't have the technological base to make use of the know-how anymore. Remember, the craftworlds were originally trade vessels. Just prior to the Fall, they were filled to the brim with refugees - I think it's rather unlikely that they also carried all necessary machinery to keep up their technological level.

I figure that all the Eldar have access to all the same technology, or at least similar enough not to warrant a tech-level difference. I assume there's enough trade throughout the webway to keep access relatively equal. But at the same time, each branch of Eldar uses different aspects of said technology for cultural/philosophical reasons. Eldar take their philosophy pretty seriously.

TheLaughingGod
09-01-2011, 00:23
Self repairing troops, weapons that rip it's victims apart at an atomic level and the ability to travel through vast distances of space without the aid of the warp to name a few.

Infinitely tougher living psycho-receptive plastic with greater resiliency (Wraithguard/lords), weapons that breach the fabric of reality and the ability to create travel lanes through subdimensions.

Not using the warp doesn't make their technology better. All that matters is the ability to harness natural forces of the universe. Eldar technology harnesses natural forces of the 40k universe, it can do more spectacular things than Necron tech, therefore it's better.

Hell, gravity propelled monomolecular rifles are incredibly advanced and every single Eldar has access to one. Gauss rifles are cool and all, but Shurikens do the same amount of damage (roughly) and Even though Gauss weapons can damage anything, so can Fusion Guns which basically shoot stars and so can Bright lances which harness photons perfectly.

So really, are the Necrons really more advanced?

ChaosTicket
09-01-2011, 01:50
Eldar's able to create new webway that arent temporary is disputed. Their Wraitguard are partly tough based on SIZE(compare Wraithguard and Immortals).

Not using the warp doesnt make technology better, but the fact that they have the only non-warp FasterThanLight travel that is as good as warp travel makes them esafe while keeping their speed.

And dont say "shurikens do the same damage" as they dont. Using the current rules the Disintegrators can damage ANYTHING even Land Raiders, Titans, etc, because they cant be deflected like kinetic energy weapons can such as Shurikens but rather seperate molecules.

If you really showed Gauss weapons then they would be like "no worse than 2+ chance to wound everything" as they can. the only way to stop Gauss weapons are to have something in the way like armor and then it destroys the armor. They can strip Marines down to their boxers.

Hellebore
10-01-2011, 01:41
Infinitely tougher living psycho-receptive plastic with greater resiliency (Wraithguard/lords), weapons that breach the fabric of reality and the ability to create travel lanes through subdimensions.

Not using the warp doesn't make their technology better. All that matters is the ability to harness natural forces of the universe. Eldar technology harnesses natural forces of the 40k universe, it can do more spectacular things than Necron tech, therefore it's better.

Hell, gravity propelled monomolecular rifles are incredibly advanced and every single Eldar has access to one. Gauss rifles are cool and all, but Shurikens do the same amount of damage (roughly) and Even though Gauss weapons can damage anything, so can Fusion Guns which basically shoot stars and so can Bright lances which harness photons perfectly.

So really, are the Necrons really more advanced?

I would say in design, yes. Design and effect being two different things.

You could, for example, make a pistol entirely out of glass components. Would it function any better than a normal pistol? Probably not, but the technology required to create such a precision instrument would be far beyond what's needed to make a normal pistol.

If we just go off results, then a 18th century musket is more advanced than a modern rifle. It fired massive rounds that did heinous amounts of damage.

However, the technology required to make one is far less than that required to make a modern rifle.

The necrons utilise very complicated equipment that uses energy forces in strange ways.

I think of the necrons and eldar as sort of opposite sides of the same coin. They are the respective masters of their sphere, warp manipulation and reality manipulation.

however to manipulate reality it requires far more complex technologies because there are no cheats like the ability to do it all with the power of your mind. Reality manipulation is far harder work that requires a higher technological base to perform than warp manipulation.

An eldar with a spear could use bonesinging to repair the blade, or manipulate trees into homes. Warp manipulation is usable at any stage of civilised development, regardless of the technological advances or lackthereof. There's nothing really stopping a primitive eldar channelling warp energy through a sword and burning out your soul, because that's just the ability of a psychic mind to manipulate the warp.

So I conclude that the necrons must be more advanced technologically simply because they couldn't develop their technologies at the hunter gatherer level of development and had to have a complex and detailed understanding of the foundations of reality and the laws of physics in order to develop their technology.

An eldar that doesn't know how to read or write, throws poo when aggravated and speaks in grunts can still manipulate the warp to create 'advanced' results. But it doesn't mean it was an advanced technology that did it.

Hellebore

Stonerhino
10-01-2011, 02:27
Infinitely tougher living psycho-receptive plastic with greater resiliency (Wraithguard/lords), weapons that breach the fabric of reality and the ability to create travel lanes through subdimensions.

Not using the warp doesn't make their technology better. All that matters is the ability to harness natural forces of the universe. Eldar technology harnesses natural forces of the 40k universe, it can do more spectacular things than Necron tech, therefore it's better.

Hell, gravity propelled monomolecular rifles are incredibly advanced and every single Eldar has access to one. Gauss rifles are cool and all, but Shurikens do the same amount of damage (roughly) and Even though Gauss weapons can damage anything, so can Fusion Guns which basically shoot stars and so can Bright lances which harness photons perfectly.

So really, are the Necrons really more advanced?While in game terms they have no effect. But it's plausible that a Nodal Grid would effect any warp based technology. So for example, can a webway portal be opened up inside of a nodal grid??? Or can a D-cannon even be targeted through a nightshroud??? For game balance these are not issues, just like sniper rifles and poisons. But from a fluff stand point it's a lot more questionable.

The effects of fusion guns and lance wepons are greatly diminished vs living metal. So even the special weapons that the Eldar have to take on heavy armor are not any better vs the Necrons then the weapons that are carried by the Necron's basic warriors. For doing the same vs the Eldar's armor.

TheLaughingGod
10-01-2011, 02:49
While in game terms they have no effect. But it's plausible that a Nodal Grid would effect any warp based technology. So for example, can a webway portal be opened up inside of a nodal grid??? Or can a D-cannon even be targeted through a nightshroud??? For game balance these are not issues, just like sniper rifles and poisons. But from a fluff stand point it's a lot more questionable.
I doubt a nightshroud would make daemons simply vanish, so there are some warp effects/technologies that can probably overpower even a Nodal Grid (or the Necrons would simply just use Nodal Grids everywhere)




The effects of fusion guns and lance wepons are greatly diminished vs living metal. So even the special weapons that the Eldar have to take on heavy armor are not any better vs the Necrons then the weapons that are carried by the Necron's basic warriors. For doing the same vs the Eldar's armor.
That's not true. D-cannons, Haywire grenades and the like have undiminished effectiveness against all Necron technology. Living metal has no effect on those weapons.

stonehorse
10-01-2011, 03:53
The Necron are by far the most advanced race in the entire 40K universe. Read their Codex... some of the things they managed to do millions of years before all the current 40K races even started to evolve into their current being is simply put, extremely advanced.

Also bear in mind that they and the C'tan were such a threat through their advanced technology that the Old Ones had to create The Eldar, Orks, and Humans... and most likely the Tau when the Necrons started to wake up from their 60+/- Million year slumber.

Remember game rules do not reflect background, and background doesn't reflect game rules... the two imitate each other to various degrees.

Stonerhino
10-01-2011, 04:58
I doubt a nightshroud would make daemons simply vanish, so there are some warp effects/technologies that can probably overpower even a Nodal Grid (or the Necrons would simply just use Nodal Grids everywhere)On madusa the Necrons where trying to create enough pylons to keep the warp storm off the planet. So a simple formation of monoliths might not be enough. That does not mean that the Necrons can not. As they are the ones that built the pylons on Cadia which are given credit for keeping that area stable. Maybe even holding back the Eye of Terror.

The game effects of a monolith phalanx are limited to actual psychic powers. But that can be just a balance issue. Because you can not even target a psychic power through one. So the effect on the warp is pretty extreme. Imagine how fun it would be for a Deamon player to play against a Nodal Grid if his force simply vanished when they got close.

And if you are going to argue that d-cannons and haywire grenades are so advanced. The IoM and the Tau have simular effects. Haywire = EMP grenade and D-cannon/wrath cannon = Vortex grenade. So if your "Avanced" technology can be immulated by lesser races is it really that advanced. At least when the IoM tries to immulate the Necrons it takes a titan/star ship sized powerplant to power a Gauss Flayer that is a Necron hand held weapon. And even then that's considering that they can actually create a simular trigger.

Bergen Beerbelly
10-01-2011, 05:08
Just so you know, Haywire grenades do NOT= EMP grenades. Haywire grenades are superior, glancing on a 2 instead of 4. ;)

Also, how about Warp Jump technology as used by the Warp Spiders?.

Or the Holo Field technology used by the Heavy Support choices in the Eldar Codex?...

Stonerhino
10-01-2011, 08:54
The point being that they work the same way. You can even say that a D-cannon is better then a vortex grenade because it can be use more then once. The point being that races that are nowhere near the technology of the Eldar have weapon that do the same thing.

How about when your holo-fielded tank getting ripped apart by a swarm of little robots.

The Necron have the edge in any technological compairison. Untill you start to include things that need psykers and then the Necrons have technology to make psykers worthless. So even then the Necrons still have the edge.

Hellebore
10-01-2011, 09:14
Eldar materials technology is pretty awesome though. A necron warrior needs to be teleported back to a tomb world to be repaired.

An eldar psychoplastic construct can be repaired by a bonesinger singing at it, in a cave in the middle of nowhere. No materials cost, simply time and concentration on the behalf of the eldar. The material also acts as a support structure, communication relay and power tranfer. It is a solid state all purpose everything material.

It's hard to compare eldar and necron tech because necron tech is more easily comparable to real human technology - it's all based in realworld physics etc. Eldar technology relies entirely on a completely different system that has its own unique parameters and advantages.


Hellebore

Aliarzathanil
10-01-2011, 11:56
Necron tech is only based on real world physics in that it isn't described as magic, but I see your point.

The fact that the Necron warrior can even be teleported at all is impressive. Also, can't tomb spyders field repair Necron warriors?

On the Eldar side, the fact that they have stones you can capture souls in is more impressive then haywire greandes and wraithbone.

Sparowl
10-01-2011, 12:12
Well, yes and no.

A necron has to be teleported back for excessive damage, that can't repaired by his nanotech. Remember, necrons repair most damage without assistance.

A wraithbone construct does not. It needs a singer to be repaired.

Also, necrons can have better field repair, per res orb/monolith/tomb spyder.

insectum7
10-01-2011, 19:30
Quick ranking, highest to lowest here:

Necron
Eldar (all)
Tau
Imperium
Orks

I have no idea how to judge Tyranids. Biotech is all they have, although they're clearly brilliant at it.

Pontiff
10-01-2011, 20:43
Quick ranking, highest to lowest here:

Necron
Eldar (all)
Tau
Imperium
Orks

I have no idea how to judge Tyranids. Biotech is all they have, although they're clearly brilliant at it.


I'd have to say that looks exactly how i'd list them too... and again Tyranids are the ones you really can't fit in. I imagine you'd have to look at what hi -tech fetures you were judging the other by (laser/beam weapons/ warp travel/ self repair/ AI use/ grav tech etc etc) and see what bio systems they had that were comparable in use? But i guess where you biologically evolve to fill a gap caused by neccesity means you pretty much dont have a tech ceiling... just a timeline til you grow the bits you need.

Still Standing
10-01-2011, 21:01
But the Tyranids didn't evolve naturally. The original Tyranids were the Warriors, who bred / engineered the rest (2nd Ed Nid book). So it IS technology.

Pontiff
10-01-2011, 21:04
Fair point indeed, i totally forgot that (cant think why I had it in my head its evolution rather than design).

Bergen Beerbelly
11-01-2011, 01:24
I still think then that Eldar have the best technology because before the Necron's were even concieved as a race the Eldar did all that cool tech stuff like terraforming planets and being able to destroy stars and stuff.

A lot of the stuff Necrons are given credit for now were origionally credited to the Eldar. Then, the necrons come along and GW Retcon's all the cool Eldar stuff, and say that the Necrons are the ones that did it. WTF...I hate retcon.

Pontiff
11-01-2011, 01:26
WTF...I hate retcon.

You and me both.... :)

TheLaughingGod
11-01-2011, 01:52
The point being that they work the same way. You can even say that a D-cannon is better then a vortex grenade because it can be use more then once. The point being that races that are nowhere near the technology of the Eldar have weapon that do the same thing.Not really. A black powder rifle shots a bullet, but it's not nearly the same thing as a hand held automatic magnetic railgun. They both propel a projectile to cause damage, the railgun does it a lot better and requires a much greater understanding of the principles behind the universe.

The Imperium may have Vortex missiles, but the Eldar have titan-level d-cannons and can easily produce them. The Imperium cannot MAKE anything to that level.




How about when your holo-fielded tank getting ripped apart by a swarm of little robots.
Except it wouldn't, because holofields protect even in close combat (in fact, in the game, holofields basically negate the gauss rule)




The Necron have the edge in any technological compairison. Untill you start to include things that need psykers and then the Necrons have technology to make psykers worthless. So even then the Necrons still have the edge.
The Necrons basically don't. On every level, the Eldar have something that does the same or better. Infantry have power weapons can disintigrate necron nano-tech. Heavy infantry and war machines constructed out of super-meta materials that can be regrown on the spot powered by the restless spirits of the dead.

Tougher and harder to kill with even greater hand held weapons. Wraithguard are the equivelent of necron Warriors. Bigger, stronger, tougher, and a gun that can destroy anything, period. No concentrated fire, no stripping away molecules, it fires a gun that literally sends you to Hell.

Oh, and Wraithlords are the equivelent of Necron Immortals or Lords.

The greatest weapon the Necrons possess, Necrodermis, is completely helpless against a wraithcannon. It offers as much protection as an ork buggy. Gauss weapons do nothing if they can't HIT an Eldar vehicle.

Necrons have special arcane wargear that allows them to teleport. So do the Eldar. Necrons go FTL without using the Warp. So do the Eldar. (They CAN create Webway gates, as in the 3rd edition codex lore they're examining a Warp Gate that has obviously been created by the Eldar)

The Necrons don't have technology that makes psychic tech worthless or the Eldar would never win. That's obviously not the case, so all they can realy do is stop active psychic powers in a localized area.

Remember that ALL Eldar tech is psychic. From the simplest weapon or device to the most powerful titan or warship. It's powered by psychic energy, operated by psychic impulse.

I don't agree with Hellebore that their technology is inferior because they utilize a natural advantage in their interfaces. They're still harnessing natural forces of the universe (the Warp and Psychic power are as natural as Gravity or Light in 40k) and using them. A blind species probably couldn't make laser weapons, and that's obviously a handicap, but it doesn't make them more advanced even if they develop sonic weapons instead.

Retribution
11-01-2011, 02:15
I still think then that Eldar have the best technology because before the Necron's were even concieved as a race the Eldar did all that cool tech stuff like terraforming planets and being able to destroy stars and stuff.

A lot of the stuff Necrons are given credit for now were origionally credited to the Eldar. Then, the necrons come along and GW Retcon's all the cool Eldar stuff, and say that the Necrons are the ones that did it. WTF...I hate retcon.

Wut? Eldar were created by the Old Ones in response to the Necrontyr, they weren't around first

TheLaughingGod
11-01-2011, 02:20
Wut? Eldar were created by the Old Ones in response to the Necrontyr, they weren't around first

Because in the history of the game, the Eldar were the original ancient race of mystique and wonder, before the Necrons were even a twinkle in a game designers eye, the Eldar did all that stuff. Build pyramids on ancient worlds and what have you.

Inquisitor_Tolheim
11-01-2011, 02:27
Wut? Eldar were created by the Old Ones in response to the Necrontyr, they weren't around first

Real world not in game. The Necrons were created after GW and were retconned to have superior tech.

My money is still on Necrons, based on current cannon. If the Eldar were THAT good they would have managed to recover from their empires fall. The Necrons, on the other hand, simply temporarily shut down until their masters food source replenished and are re-ascendant. Immortal machines that never really fail, just need to be serviced once in a while. Sure you lose the personality, but that doesn't matter if you're the one in charge.

Retribution
11-01-2011, 02:30
Ahhh, I knew the Space Elves were first...but i never realized that Necrons inherited their mystique after being introduced

TheLaughingGod
11-01-2011, 02:34
My money is still on Necrons, based on current cannon. If the Eldar were THAT good they would have managed to recover from their empires fall.

Well, some of the problem is that the whole race is holding an idiot ball.
They've got the numbers, the technology, the means to predict the future, but instead they stay in insulated communities and avoid anything that doesn't directly involve them.

If GW removed plot armour from the game and made them act sensibly, every single Chapter of Space Marines would be dead in 600 years, manuevered into unwinnable wars of attrition on their own homeworlds by various WAAGHS and Black Crusades.

Almost every war against Eldar would be fought in the skies and in space where the Imperium and Chaos would be crushed pitilessly and all ground actions would be undertaken by ghost like Titans obliterating everything from a healthy distance before disappearing back into the shadows.

Pontiff
11-01-2011, 03:12
Because in the history of the game, the Eldar were the original ancient race of mystique and wonder, before the Necrons were even a twinkle in a game designers eye, the Eldar did all that stuff. Build pyramids on ancient worlds and what have you.

Actually if we're going to get technical the Slann were the original 'old ones' who made the warp gates etc. The playable Slann army of the RT era was a degenerate form of the race lacking most of its power


Again this got butchered IIRC to make the slann creations of the old ones rather than actually *being* them.

TheLaughingGod
11-01-2011, 03:54
Actually if we're going to get technical the Slann were the original 'old ones' who made the warp gates etc. The playable Slann army of the RT era was a degenerate form of the race lacking most of its power


Again this got butchered IIRC to make the slann creations of the old ones rather than actually *being* them.

Well, that's TRUE. But a lot of the achievements and what have you and themes of the Eldar race got diluted into the Necrons.

Bergen Beerbelly
11-01-2011, 03:56
True...I'd forgotten about that as I haven't read my RT books in years. Come to think of it, they did the same thing with Khorne...they turned him into a psycopathic diety instead of a noble warrior diety like he used to be..even if he was a bit twisted.

ChaosTicket
11-01-2011, 05:16
Khorne has been a blood god since at least 2nd edition. Khaine was fluctuated slightly as a bloodthirsty Eldar God, but still isnt a noble warrior like Asuryan.

Khorn CAN be a Noble warrior, but at every level bloody combat is the focus. At the lowest people are feral savages, and at the highers ones they personally take skulls and offer them to Khorne.

The idea of a "Noble" warrior is really just one that doesnt slaughter civilians, as in combat you fight with whatever gun, blade, ever fists and feet, so they only way it cant be bloody is if the enemy doesnt have blood.

Khorne is my favorite Chaos God simply because he knows what he wants, isnt squeemish or manipulative about it, and his gifts are usual with much greater regularity than others gods, especially Tzeentch who is the exact opposite.

Iracundus
11-01-2011, 05:37
Actually if we're going to get technical the Slann were the original 'old ones' who made the warp gates etc. The playable Slann army of the RT era was a degenerate form of the race lacking most of its power


Again this got butchered IIRC to make the slann creations of the old ones rather than actually *being* them.

You remember incorrectly. The Necron Codex pretty much implies that the Old Ones were advanced Slann as it suggests using a WHFB Lizardmen army to represent degenerate Old One descendants.

Stonerhino
11-01-2011, 09:50
Not really. A black powder rifle shots a bullet, but it's not nearly the same thing as a hand held automatic magnetic railgun. They both propel a projectile to cause damage, the railgun does it a lot better and requires a much greater understanding of the principles behind the universe.True but railgun is a railgun. A rapid firing one is just a little more advanced.


The Imperium may have Vortex missiles, but the Eldar have titan-level d-cannons and can easily produce them. The Imperium cannot MAKE anything to that level.A weapon that tears a hole to the warp still just tears a hole to the warp. Requardless the IoM can make weapons that actively tear holes just like the Eldar's ones do.


Except it wouldn't, because holofields protect even in close combat (in fact, in the game, holofields basically negate the gauss rule)A swarm of S3 scarabs with d-fields can kill your titans in melee. Wheather or not they will do it in a game does not matter. They are still capable of doing it.


The Necrons basically don't. On every level, the Eldar have something that does the same or better. Infantry have power weapons can disintigrate necron nano-tech. Heavy infantry and war machines constructed out of super-meta materials that can be regrown on the spot powered by the restless spirits of the dead. You can really set there and say that a power weapon is more advanced then a war scythe??? Also if you believe the story "The cripple and the Dragon". Then the Wraithguard and Wraithlords wore made by Vaul to counter the Necrons under the command of the Void Dragon. Which by their very nature are copied technology of the Necrons. If anything they are less advanced because they do not self repair.


Tougher and harder to kill with even greater hand held weapons. Wraithguard are the equivelent of necron Warriors. Bigger, stronger, tougher, and a gun that can destroy anything, period. No concentrated fire, no stripping away molecules, it fires a gun that literally sends you to Hell.I think you mean purpose built war constructs because the Eldar could not handle the basic Necron Warriors without mini-Dreadnoughts. It's like saying that SM terminators are the equivelent to Necron Warriors.


Oh, and Wraithlords are the equivelent of Necron Immortals or Lords.Not to sure why you would think that a monsterous creature would be the same another army's heavy infantry.


The greatest weapon the Necrons possess, Necrodermis, is completely helpless against a wraithcannon. It offers as much protection as an ork buggy. Gauss weapons do nothing if they can't HIT an Eldar vehicle.Appearently you have never faced a Necron Fleet with Eldar in BFG. Just to give you a hint. In Space Holo field don't stop any Necron weapons. So in the game of 40k you might see things that are ment for balance that is in fact a limiter placed on the fluff.


Necrons have special arcane wargear that allows them to teleport. So do the Eldar. Necrons go FTL without using the Warp. So do the Eldar. (They CAN create Webway gates, as in the 3rd edition codex lore they're examining a Warp Gate that has obviously been created by the Eldar)I hope by "Special arcane wargear" you mean every single member of the Necron race. Since that is what they do.


The Necrons don't have technology that makes psychic tech worthless or the Eldar would never win. That's obviously not the case, so all they can realy do is stop active psychic powers in a localized area.I think you finally realise why it does not work that way for game balance.


I don't agree with Hellebore that their technology is inferior because they utilize a natural advantage in their interfaces. They're still harnessing natural forces of the universe (the Warp and Psychic power are as natural as Gravity or Light in 40k) and using them. A blind species probably couldn't make laser weapons, and that's obviously a handicap, but it doesn't make them more advanced even if they develop sonic weapons instead.It's inferior because it's limited to a connection to another plain. If the connection to that plain is lost then the technology stops working. The fact that the Necrons have ability to limit if not completely prevent the connection to the warp. Means that warp based technology has a built in fault.

insectum7
11-01-2011, 09:51
The Necrons basically don't. On every level, the Eldar have something that does the same or better.

Seriously?


Infantry have power weapons can disintigrate necron nano-tech. Heavy infantry and war machines constructed out of super-meta materials that can be regrown on the spot powered by the restless spirits of the dead.

Wow. Power weapons. The Mon-keigh can make those :P


Heavy infantry and war machines constructed out of super-meta materials that can be regrown on the spot powered by the restless spirits of the dead.

Terminator Armor still provides a better save. Does that mean it's better tech? Necrons regenerate, Wraithlords don't.



Tougher and harder to kill with even greater hand held weapons. Wraithguard are the equivelent of necron Warriors. Bigger, stronger, tougher, and a gun that can destroy anything, period. No concentrated fire, no stripping away molecules, it fires a gun that literally sends you to Hell.

Yeah they're fancy, but saying they're the equivalent of Necron Warriors is pretty arbitrary. I could just as easily say that Destroyers are the Necron equivalent of Wraithguard, and are better.



Oh, and Wraithlords are the equivelent of Necron Immortals or Lords.


Or the equivalent of a Space Marine Dreadnought. Take your pick. Again your comparisson is pretty arbitrary. What's your basis?



The greatest weapon the Necrons possess, Necrodermis, is completely helpless against a wraithcannon. It offers as much protection as an ork buggy. Gauss weapons do nothing if they can't HIT an Eldar vehicle.

C'tan takes a wound instead of "going straight to hell" as you put it. That's better defense than anything else. Warscythes and the Necrodermis also allow no saves.

Likewise, an Eldar specialty, the Bright-Lance, has it's own ability negated by the Monolith Living Metal. Comparisons like this can go tit for tat and not see a clear victor.

The problem with comparisons as you've put them is that the manifestation of technology by each race is molded by their battlefield philosophies. The fact that Wraithguard happen to have a Toughness of 6 and Warriors have a 4 makes for a very superficial comparison between the two races technology levels.



Necrons have special arcane wargear that allows them to teleport. So do the Eldar. Necrons go FTL without using the Warp. So do the Eldar. (They CAN create Webway gates, as in the 3rd edition codex lore they're examining a Warp Gate that has obviously been created by the Eldar)

I don't know the Eldar side of this equation too well. But from all the descriptions I've read, I get the feeling that the Necron FTL is far superior than everybody else's.

Teleportation is common in 40K though. Terminators, Shock Attack Gun, Warp Spiders, Monolith. The only difference with the 'crons is that they don't use the warp. They have access to some physical understanding that no one else has, allowing them to 'phase' Warscythes, Necrodermis and Wraiths.

Also, the way their ships can move in BFG is beyond anything any other ships can accomplish. They accelerate by some unknown means and totally ignore inertia. Again this is just evidence of their knowledge of physical sciences is further along than anyone else's.

Non-warp teleport, inertia-less drives, nanotech, 'phasing', gauss weapons, necrodermis, living-metal, time control, when it comes to non-warp related tech, the Necrons are the clear winners.

But...



I don't agree with Hellebore that their technology is inferior because they utilize a natural advantage in their interfaces. They're still harnessing natural forces of the universe (the Warp and Psychic power are as natural as Gravity or Light in 40k) and using them.

I can agree with that, as races they developed along separate tech-trees. It's the same thing that makes Tyranids hard to judge on par with the rest. The Tyranid tech-tree is so dissimilar as to make it difficult to see where it stands. By this reasoning one might make an argument that Eldar tech is on par or perhaps better than the crons, and it would be hard to dissuade.

My vote is still with the Crons though. The webway is very cool, Commorragh is cool, but I just find the mastery of non-warp physics more impressive.

TheLaughingGod
11-01-2011, 22:53
Wow. Power weapons. The Mon-keigh can make those :P.
True, but that doesn't change the fact that power weapons destroy necron self-repair quite effectively and the necrons have like... two examples of similar technology, only on lords.




Terminator Armor still provides a better save. Does that mean it's better tech? Necrons regenerate, Wraithlords don't..
Wraithlords do regenerate. They're made of Wraithbone which is psychomorphic and thus can regenerate if an Bonesinger sings to it.





Yeah they're fancy, but saying they're the equivalent of Necron Warriors is pretty arbitrary. I could just as easily say that Destroyers are the Necron equivalent of Wraithguard, and are better..
They are the battleshells that the Eldar place their souls in, much as the Necrontyr were placed in the Warriors. So no you couldn't say that Destroyers are the equivalent, because they aren't.




Or the equivalent of a Space Marine Dreadnought. Take your pick. Again your comparisson is pretty arbitrary. What's your basis?.
The greatest Nectontyr were placed in the Lords/Immortals, souls with the strongest will. Same deal for Wraithlords.




C'tan takes a wound instead of "going straight to hell" as you put it. That's better defense than anything else. Warscythes and the Necrodermis also allow no saves.. Because part of him is torn off and sent into the Warp.




Likewise, an Eldar specialty, the Bright-Lance, has it's own ability negated by the Monolith Living Metal. Comparisons like this can go tit for tat and not see a clear victor.. Not really. Living metal doesn't defend against wraithcannons, Holofields can defeat even the C'tan.



The problem with comparisons as you've put them is that the manifestation of technology by each race is molded by their battlefield philosophies. The fact that Wraithguard happen to have a Toughness of 6 and Warriors have a 4 makes for a very superficial comparison between the two races technology levels.. Even Immortals and Lords have 5. You'd think if Living Metal was better they'd make them better than what the Eldar can do.




I don't know the Eldar side of this equation too well. But from all the descriptions I've read, I get the feeling that the Necron FTL is far superior than everybody else's. . Not really. It's not really explained how effective it is. It's probably not better than using the Warp in terms of speed, but obviously would be safer.



Also, the way their ships can move in BFG is beyond anything any other ships can accomplish. They accelerate by some unknown means and totally ignore inertia. Again this is just evidence of their knowledge of physical sciences is further along than anyone else's..
Which is cool, until you realize that the Eldar are basically outmanuevering them in space sailing ships.




Non-warp teleport, inertia-less drives, nanotech, 'phasing', gauss weapons, necrodermis, living-metal, time control, when it comes to non-warp related tech, the Necrons are the clear winners.. I should point out that non-warp technology has as much to do with anything as non-laser technology or non-gauss technology. I mean, if you ignore the catagory that one faction is strong in, of course everyone is better on a technicality. But the Warp is a natural force of the universe in 40k and thus can't be ignored.

Mánagarmr
12-01-2011, 01:51
Necrons, without a doubt.

Those arguing for their factions superiority need to wake up and read some fluff. Necrons make other factions look like children in regards to technological advancement.

I, for one, welcome our tin-man overlords.

TheLaughingGod
12-01-2011, 02:35
Necrons, without a doubt.

Those arguing for their factions superiority need to wake up and read some fluff. Necrons make other factions look like children in regards to technological advancement.

I, for one, welcome our tin-man overlords.

Yay for Hyperbole, vague anecdotal references and lack of any real support!

Mánagarmr
12-01-2011, 03:18
Yay for Hyperbole, vague anecdotal references and lack of any real support!

You've managed to describe your posts throughout this entire thread; well done.

You want my specific reasons for believing as I do? Here you go.


The Necrons have self-regenerating metals.
Their ships can travel vast distances without use of the warp.
They have the most advanced teleportation technology in the fantasy-scape.
Their basic firearm can tear through a Land Raider like it's a Pepsi can.
There is a Necron relic that can seal of an entire sector of space from the warp - it's also only the size of a human heart.

Hell, in the Blood Raven omnibus, their crafts tear apart an Eldar fleet with comedic ease. They move so quickly, that the Eldar crafts seem to move with the grace off a manatee in comparison.

What's confusing about your argument, to me anyways is, you use examples like Wraithguard and Lords to argue for Eldar superiority; when the Eldar created these forms in an attempt to compete with the Necrons, as they were no match for them. There is a reason that aside from possibly Chaos, the Eldar fear nothing else more than the Necrons.

I won't really get into it though, as you're attempting to argue in-game stats as lore. Which tells me a discussion with you will leads to little more than a higher post count.

So I surrender the floor to those willing to put in the effort. :D

monkeyking
12-01-2011, 03:49
I realize that applying RL stuff to 40k stuff usually, but since a lot fo current thought on the subject is turning towards a "technology is a part of a biological entities evolution" and Necrons are the only known race to have completely tossed aside their biological forms for artificial ones, I'm going to say Necrons.

Though a strong case can be laid out for Tyranids, since their entire race left evolution behind and became the universes largest and most complex organic self improving machine. They can pretty much duplicate any purely technical achievement via manipulation of their own genome, and their fluff pretty much states that their entire race can be regenerated from some gaunt types, given enough bio-mass and time. Though Tyranids have an edge insofar that they are pure survival of the fittest and don't engage inefficient stuff, like religions and worshipping stargods/daemons/emporers. You know? the really resource intensive stuff that usually doesn't pan out.