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tezza21
07-01-2011, 08:50
Right guys i think they should redo the incubi as in the codex entry it say's they can only be inducted into the incubi temple if they have killed a aspect warrior and reworked the spirit stone into a tormentor.This is were i got p*****d as there is no rules for the tormentor they used to have a tormentor helm and i think it is sorly missed imo

Blutkind
07-01-2011, 09:17
What's wrong with you? There is no helmet anymore...the Tormentor is the little gem on the armour...and some rules would be nice, but not so necessary. They are good, as they are...I'm missing much more a mini, which is holding his Klaivar with both handles from the blade...

ChaosTicket
07-01-2011, 09:32
Ok so the Incubi lost one of their biggest symbols that could connect them to the their Lost Exarch and Striking Scorpion roots, not to mention a nice piece of gear for sneak attacks?

Minsc
07-01-2011, 10:14
Ok so the Incubi lost one of their biggest symbols that could connect them to the their Lost Exarch and Striking Scorpion roots, not to mention a nice piece of gear for sneak attacks?

And they didn't gain anything else right? They're much crappier than they were in the last codex?

I don't get it, are you upset because they're worse, or that they didn't get even more buffed, or simply that GW gave Incubi their own modells, so they nolonger look like evil striking scorpions?

Shamana
07-01-2011, 10:53
Well, mechanically, they kinda area cross between banshees (FoF, power weapon) and scorpions (+1 str, 3+ save). I think someone rushed the codex or they were supposed to have more gear that was snipped away for balance reasons. Isn't anyone else wondering why their description talks of debilitating waves of energy from the tormentors, and there's nothing about this rule-wise except for the bloodstone only the klaivex may have?

Tymell
07-01-2011, 11:07
I think someone rushed the codex or they were supposed to have more gear that was snipped away for balance reasons.

Without commenting on the Incubi themselves, Dark Eldar is the last codex that could be accused of being rushed :p

N3p3nth3
07-01-2011, 11:11
Without commenting on the Incubi themselves, Dark Eldar is the last codex that could be accused of being rushed :p
Looking at the dais of destruction entry, you wouldn't really be able to tell. :p

But the in-game nonexistence of tormentors and incubus Hierarchs is the other thing that draws a raised eyebrow from me. But I guess the idea is to just sub in an Archon or even Drazhar and be done with it.

Sir_Turalyon
07-01-2011, 11:35
Looking at the dais of destruction entry, you wouldn't really be able to tell.


Dais of destruction is a legacy entry to make old Vect model playable fieldable, without making new players want GW to make a new model.

Bonus from tormentors has been rolled into Incubi profile - they have 2 base attacks now rather than one attack and one extra attack from tormentor helmet.

tezza21
07-01-2011, 11:41
it's the fact we used to have more attacks for example banshhes are cheaper in points and have more attacks and with there mask's will strike first yeah i know we have extra strength but it's pointless against the amount of attacks that would be coming our way. The minis look fab but we need some more options for the incubi for there cost

Thoras
07-01-2011, 12:26
it's the fact we used to have more attacks for example banshhes are cheaper in points and have more attacks and with there mask's will strike first yeah i know we have extra strength but it's pointless against the amount of attacks that would be coming our way. The minis look fab but we need some more options for the incubi for there cost

Completely disagree on both balancing (Incubi can be killing machines and Resilient ones at that) and options in relation to their craftworld equivelents, to illustrate,

- Carries a unique piece of wargear related to their calling...check
- Can upgrade to have a leader ... check
- leader can carry unique wargear...check
- leader can upgrade to have powers that he gives to his squad or just himself...check

I'll give you that the blurb about tormentors is a little odd when it isn't reflected in the rules, but thats about it.

Sildani
07-01-2011, 12:28
No, no they don't. If you want to fight Banshees, use Wyches or Bloodbrides. Incubi are meant for expensive, heavily armored targets that Wyches and Bloodbrides can't handle.
Incubi shouldn't be good against everything, and for their cost, they get a lot of stuff.

Blutkind
07-01-2011, 12:43
Thanx Sildani...I wanted to to say something similar...

I still don't get it, why there is always such a discussion about one unit type, every time a new codex/armybook comes out.

The Inccubi aren't there to deal with everything...you have to field them with wisdom, you are playing Dark Eldar...what's the problem. Just think about your options and use them.
The Inccubi are extremely dangerous and lethal, if you are using them right. And do you want 30 points Inccubi? I guess not...

Memnos
07-01-2011, 12:45
No, no. The original person is right.

Incubi are terrible because they can't fight Banshees, the Eldar unit designed specifically so that it's the best anti-T3, great armour save unit in the game.

They are truly a horrible unit that should never be purchased under any circumstances.

Yes, you may say "But Memnos - They have one of the best initiatives in the game, a strength 4 power weapon that hits on 3s against almost anything, lots of attacks and the ability to get feel-no-pain."

Yes, you may say "But Memnos. Comparing a high cost, good armour save, low toughness unit to its specific countermeasure is just like saying Leman Russes are terrible in because of infiltrating melta squads."

Yes, you may say, "But Memnos, Incubi have the cheapest assault vehicle in the game. And that vehicle is fast, which means this is one of the fastest units with the safest assaults in the game. Banshees don't get open topped vehicles they can assault out of."

Yes, you may say, "But Memnos. Banshees wound T4 models on a 5+ and hit on 4s, compared to hitting on 3s and wounding on 4s against Marines for the Incubi."

Wait... What was I saying again?

Minsc
07-01-2011, 14:30
it's the fact we used to have more attacks for example banshhes are cheaper in points and have more attacks and with there mask's will strike first yeah i know we have extra strength but it's pointless against the amount of attacks that would be coming our way. The minis look fab but we need some more options for the incubi for there cost

:rolleyes:
You're comparing Incubis to the best Incubi-slaying unit in the entire game, and then claim that Incubis are crap because they loose in that duell? The worst part is that you're actually serious...

loveless
07-01-2011, 14:41
Is this two or three months after release?

Either way, that may be the longest period of "un-whining" about a new codex ever.

Incubi are fine, but the Elite section of Codex: Dark Eldar is so damn full that it makes you question any choice you make.

Shamana
07-01-2011, 14:43
Incubi shouldn't be good against everything, and for their cost, they get a lot of stuff.

Well, they are good against most things in CC, especially if they get the charge and/or get a bonus token. They could have the tormentors count as assault grenades so they don't need an archon to babysit them, but they are pretty much ok. Let's put some things straight: incubi are broad specialists. Any narrow specialist unit should be more effective than them (doing more for the same points) in its field of expertise. It is normal that they should be less effective (as in, not doing the same damage for the same points) compared to narrow specialists like banshees. Whether that's the case is another issue - I think the banshees will only win if they get the assault, and will likely lose if assaulted due to the more hits/wounds received at the same initiative.

Incubi pretty much cover all the bases - good attack and initiative, hitting reasonably hard, denying armor saves, and being armored well enough to have decent staying power, and that's before they get FNP from combat or a Haemunculus "donor". Even with the, so to say, brain fart regarding grenades, they can give a good showing for their points against nearly any infantry as long as they get to combat. Any infantry that assaults a unit of incubi is going to feel some serious pain, and if it's the incubi doing the assaulting (not that hard with the fast, open topped raider and FoF), well... I think it's safe to say the incubi will have an extra pain token very quickly. I think of the major concerns is how not to kill the enemy in your phase and finish them off in theirs, so you are can't be shot at in the enemy shooting phase .

hungry hungry hormagaunt
07-01-2011, 15:03
Incubi are fine, but the Elite section of Codex: Dark Eldar is so damn full that it makes you question any choice you make.

Admittedly, if you took Bloodbrides, you should maybe be doing a little bit more questioning. Along the lines of "why did I pay extra points to not have a scoring unit any more?"

Gaargod
07-01-2011, 15:22
Is this two or three months after release?

Either way, that may be the longest period of "un-whining" about a new codex ever.



I know, I love it. Says volumes about the book.
(Or it may just be that with the new book finally coming for all us poor dark eldar players, anyone who objects is quietly taken outside and shot)



Point aside, incubi are rather awesome. They effectively combine the positives of both striking scorpions and banshees. Yes, them not having assault grenades is irritating, but at least Phil Kelly saw fit to give us a way around it with PGLs on Archons.

Jack Spratt
07-01-2011, 15:24
Incubi = Awesome

Blutkind
07-01-2011, 15:55
I would say

Inccubi = EPSOME ( Epic and Awesome) :p

Marshal Augustine
07-01-2011, 16:02
Incubi:
Before: Point cost + grenades, had to go with archon.

Now- 5 pts cheaper than before (with the grenades) same number of attacks and str as before. No shooting attack but now can get FNP, and FC, and fearless over the course of a game. And add an archon with a PGL and the grenade problem is solved...

Now incubi so, so much better than before!


Fluff wise... I am overall happy that they expanded on all the fluff in the book.

Thoth62
07-01-2011, 16:08
It's worth noting that Incubi have fleet now too... They never did in the old codex. I'd call that a pretty big improvement right there.

SPYDER68
07-01-2011, 16:26
I think they are perfect..

squad in a raider with Aether Sails..

Move 24" + 2d6 = average of 31" Movement

Next turn move 12"
2" Disembark
d6 Fleet (going with average of low 3)
6" Charge.

So turn 2.. they just charged a unit 54" away from their starting point.. give or take due to the 3 random D6's.

3+ save..
power weapons
Str 4

after they kill their target... they are even harder to kill.


I like them how they are.. xxpoints is nice.. id rather not pay 30 or more for them.

Dead Man Walking
07-01-2011, 16:27
Yesterday I charged 9 Incubi with 2 units of 9 assault marine blood angels with a sanguine priest (power weapon)(out of base contact) and a librarian (out of base contact). He killed all 9 assault marines from one unit first (kill point). In return I killed 5 incubi (mostly with fist). Than the next round the librarian and priest were pulled into base and he killed off the librarian and 5 more assault marines. The priest and the last 4 marines killed off the rest of the incubi.

I tossed 2 units of assault marines and a librarian to thier death against one unit of nearly full incubi so I don't want to hear any whining about how they suck.

If they suck against banshees then dont throw them into banshees, thats what 4 venoms with 5 troops in each venom with poison shooting is for, to kill those banshees outside of combat.

Shamana
07-01-2011, 16:46
Actually, what's the mathhammer of incubi assaulting banshees? I think unless the bansheerinas get the assault, they would fold. Presuming enough contact for full attacks, here's what I can come with:

6 incubi charge 9 banshees (132 pts vs 144 points), equal initiative (masks don't apply due to banshees being charged)

Incubi: 18 att, 12 hits (3+), 8 wounds (3+), unsaved
Banshees: 18 attacks, 9 hits (4+), 4.5 wounds (4+), unsaved,

The incubi have a pretty decent chance to win combat there, even at slightly lower points.

Starchild
07-01-2011, 16:54
Isn't anyone else wondering why their description talks of debilitating waves of energy from the tormentors, and there's nothing about this rule-wise except for the bloodstone only the klaivex may have?Maybe Mr. Kelly forgot to mention that the bloodstones count as assault grenades? If only... :cries:

That said, it's easy to add an Archon with assault grenade wargear. Overall I think the best improvement is Power Through Pain. If they can chop up even a small unit, they get FNP. Chop another unit, and the survivors get S5 I6 on the charge. That's rather competitive imo.




What does this 'smilies' mean? -> :o It's a little disturbing.... :wtf:That's the embarrassed face, which not many of us use on Warseer, but we should. :p

:o

Blutkind
07-01-2011, 16:58
Field them with a Heamonculus and they FnP markers are a little bit faster there ^^

Starchild
07-01-2011, 17:07
Field them with a Heamonculus and they FnP markers are a little bit faster there ^^Excellent point. I'm glad I thought of it... :p

For that matter, why not lead Incubi with both an Archon and a Haemonculus? :evilgrin:

ghoulio
07-01-2011, 17:13
it's the fact we used to have more attacks for example banshhes are cheaper in points and have more attacks and with there mask's will strike first yeah i know we have extra strength but it's pointless against the amount of attacks that would be coming our way. The minis look fab but we need some more options for the incubi for there cost

What? What you have written makes NO sense. Incubi are substantially better then they were last edition. They lose one attack because of no extra hand weapon but gain fleet of foot and power through pain (which is huge). They also get their sergent who is also incredible.

What you are saying in regards to banshees also makes no sense (Banshees and Incubi have the same # of attacks btw). They are only 6 pts more then banshees and get the following:

- +1 WS
- +1 Str
- +1 Sv
- An Exarch gets both Mirror swords COMBINED with an executioner so you can choose which one you want to use each round of combat

You lose
- Ability to strike first

Incubi are amazing for how many points they are. Love the models, love the rules they are virtually perfect they way they are. The only thing I would of liked to have seen was having some sort of option for plasma grenades. Either in the form of a phantasm grenade launcher or just being able to purchase them. Other then that, perfect.

loveless
07-01-2011, 17:13
For that matter, why not lead Incubi with both an Archon and a Haemonculus? :evilgrin:

I've got all these eggs, but only one basket! What am I going to do?

hungry hungry hormagaunt
07-01-2011, 17:16
For that matter, why not lead Incubi with both an Archon and a Haemonculus? :evilgrin:

Because Vindicators exist, that's why.

Raibaru
07-01-2011, 17:16
They'd lose fleet too.

People just bring Haemonculi for the free FNP anyway though.

Could have probably made a piece of wargear for 25 points that gave fnp and no one would take them except for wracks :)

Blutkind
07-01-2011, 17:18
Heamonculus, Archon, 8 Inccubi and a transport...I forgot the English name for it...and then go hunting! 3 Heamonculi are possible every time...cheap and makes everything better...

There are not much reasons, why not fielding Inccubi with a Haemonculus...they have no Ward Save...think about it.
If they have nor grenades, but FnP...use them different...

SPYDER68
07-01-2011, 17:20
Haem's are great to put in incubi and wyches for more then just FNP for me.

They soak a wound when transport blows.

+ i add a liquifier to my Haem and he can go around flamering things from the transport (if it lives)

Blutkind
07-01-2011, 17:33
Hell yeah...liquifier + Scissor Hands...my fave combo, for my fave Haem mini...besides of Urien...and great just before the charge of the Inccubi

hungry hungry hormagaunt
07-01-2011, 17:49
No, you don't want scissorhands. Stick with the venom blade, it's more efficient.

Blutkind
07-01-2011, 17:54
Venom Blade is very good, but the Scissors fits me better...more attacks, wounding on 3+ is fine by me and I like them...they are one of these typically creepy Haemonculi weapons...style!

GingerBalls
07-01-2011, 18:20
No whining about incubi allowed. I use them, I love them. 9 incubi in a raider escorting an archon (or haemonculous I guess) is a deathstar. I killy kill much haha.

Lord Damocles
07-01-2011, 18:30
Right guys i think they should redo the Tactical Marines as in the codex entry it say's they can only be inducted into a tactical squad if they have served several campaigns in an assault squad. This is were i got p*****d as there is no rules for the Chainswords they used to have a Chainsword option and i think it is sorly missed imo


Seriously?

autarch dsaliuvid
07-01-2011, 18:45
equal initiative (masks don't apply due to banshees being charged)

Any first turn of combat the banshiees are I10 it doesn't matter who charges.

Lord Wasa
07-01-2011, 18:57
I've got all these eggs, but only one basket! What am I going to do?

Omelettes..

Minsc
07-01-2011, 19:24
6 incubi charge 9 banshees (132 pts vs 144 points), equal initiative (masks don't apply due to banshees being charged)

Incubi: 18 att, 12 hits (3+), 8 wounds (3+), unsaved
Banshees: 18 attacks, 9 hits (4+), 4.5 wounds (4+), unsaved

Good math-hammer. However, banshee masks apply on the first round of combat nomatter who charges, and every banshee-squad worth a damn is led by a Exarch with Acrobatic. (counter-attack!)

However, let's compare 7 Incubi (154 pts) with 10 Banshees (160 pts). Not adding a Exarch/Klaviex nor Onslaught/Acrobatic.

Incubis charge.
Banshee's strike first. 20 attacks, 10 hits, 5 dead incubi.
2 Incubi strike: 6 attacks, 4 hits, 2,66 = ~3 dead banshees.
2 Incubi left with a -2 to their breaktest.

Banshee's win by a longshot.

Now let's make it "realistic" by fielding 'normal' units. 9 Banshees + Exarch with Executioner and Acrobatic vs 9 Incubi + Klaviex with Onslaught and his funky blade.
(~185 pts vs ~250)

Incubus charge.
Banshees attack first, and we can count on them passing their counter-attack LD-test.(Ld9.)
27 attacks from regular banshees, 13,5 hits, 6,75 dead incubi.
3 attacks, from exarch, 1,5 hits, 1,25 dead incubi.
All in all...8 dead Incubi.

I don't even think there's a point in calculating the score for the Klaviex and the last Incubi. :P

Rule number 1 for fresh Incubi: Stay away from Howling Banshees at all times!

hungry hungry hormagaunt
07-01-2011, 19:46
And this is what happens when you charge into close combat with a unit that is pretty much designed to hard-counter you.

tezza21
07-01-2011, 19:49
Yup my point exactly all i was saying is we should have a way of increasing our iniative like the banshee masks

Lord Wasa
07-01-2011, 19:59
-.-

Incubi aren't supposed to be terminators, they have a weakness, and for the points, it's a small weakness.

Blutkind
07-01-2011, 20:02
Yeah, but in these days it is soooooooooo unfair, if some troopes got weaknesses...totally mad...and I like the face of my enemy, when my Inccubi come closer to the Termis...^^

loveless
07-01-2011, 22:02
Yup my point exactly all i was saying is we should have a way of increasing our iniative like the banshee masks

No?

Seriously, it's not needed.

Incubi aren't the answer to Howling Banshees. Initiative 5 (6 on the Klaivex) is already damn good.

If you're going to give Incubi further buffs, expect their point costs to go up and up.


---

On a bit of a side note, Incubi are still highly "prized" as bodyguards, correct? That could be a fair reason for them not having access to grenades - it makes you want to take a character with them in the unit to use the Phantasm Grenade Launcher (or whatever) to help them out. Seems decently fitting - not necessarily ideal, but not really all that bad, either.

madden
07-01-2011, 22:20
Plus if your chargeing banshees or any eldar/hoard why arnt you using the flamer attack that the incubi klavivex can take (bloodstone) that should do the trick if you don't fleet them, mine run in a venom with twin cannon they bail close flame then assult then consolidate back into the transport or if against hoards shooot them with cannon before assult to thin them down. Incubi are leathel to 90% of units out there so just advoid banshees or stay in the transport and shot them.

SPYDER68
07-01-2011, 22:24
then assult then consolidate back into the transport .


I hope you mean conolidate back by the transport then next turn get back inside of it.

madden
07-01-2011, 23:16
Yes preferable the other side so it sheilds them works as I send them after small elite squads, so far battle suits Inc farsight, marine comand squads, and back feild units devs/weapon teams snipers etc.

TheLaughingGod
08-01-2011, 01:31
tl;dr version of this thread:

Incubi are fine.

Venkh
08-01-2011, 02:14
Flippin
Incredible
No
Excuses

Whats not to love about a 3+ save unit that can fleet out of a skimming transport and inflict 3 WS5 S4 power weapon attacks when it engages the enemy?

If you are worried about assaulting into cover and arent usng an Archon, use a Haemonculus to give them a pain token at the beginning of them game for FNP.

3+ save and 4+ FNP is the equivalent of a 2+ save vs the vast majority of attacks.

18 Attacks 9 hits, 6 wounds, 2 failed armour, 1 failed FNP.

So it takes an average of 18 WS4 S4 attacks to cause a single wound to a squad.

You can even pay points to give them an AP3 template attack to reduce those attacks further.

The only reason the klaivex is a bit questionable is that his squad is so damned lethal on his own. Get that squad another token and you are running around with S5 I5 power weapons. OUCH!

Lord Wasa
08-01-2011, 03:47
Whats not to love about a 3+ save unit that can fleet out of a skimming transport and inflict 3 WS5 S4 power weapon attacks when it engages the enemy?

Apparently that they can't beat/match the Banshee initiative of 10 :rolleyes:

Lothlanathorian
08-01-2011, 06:01
Crap. There is a squad in the game that, at equal points will, assuming you never shoot at them and run headlong into them like a man fired from a cannon at a wall, crush the Incubi. Clearly, they need to errata their entry and give them a twin-linked Rending Pony Launcher that is Assault 2, grants them Initiative 10 in CC against any enemy with a stat line and fires pie plates. Actual pie plates.

Clearly, this is the only feasible solution.

slayerofmen
08-01-2011, 07:22
answer: shoot the banshees kill everything else with the incubi

Shamana
08-01-2011, 08:58
Good math-hammer. However, banshee masks apply on the first round of combat nomatter who charges, and every banshee-squad worth a damn is led by a Exarch with Acrobatic.

Oh, ok then. I thought the masks only work when the banshees assault, was there a FAQ that states it outright?

susu.exp
08-01-2011, 16:47
Good math-hammer.

Nope. Neither is yours. To go to the first example. The mean number of incubi killed isnīt 5, but 4.8. You did not take into account overkill and your number there includes the impossible case of killing more than 7 Incubi. Doing the math the mean number of banshees killed is not 2.66 but 2.87.

The Banshees have a 66% chance of winning the combat, the Incubi a chance of 26% (the remaining 8% are draws). So while Banshees are one of the worst units to face with Incubi, they do have a shot (a 1 in 4 chance to win the combat and also about 1 in 4 odds at killing at least half the banshees).

For you second one I did not include Onslaught because it becomes rather hard to calculate. I get a mean of 7.3 dead Incubi (from 8 you got) and a mean of 4.5 dead Banshees. Here itīs a 29% chance for the Incubi to win combat and 65% for the banshees. With Onslaught Iīd estimate a 1 in 3 chance to beat the Banshees.

While itīs generally a good idea not to take on Banshees with Incubi, itīs definitely something you can try as a gamble if you are somewhat desperate. Given these numbers, it is a calculated risk one might consider taking in a particular situation.

TheLaughingGod
09-01-2011, 00:13
Oh, ok then. I thought the masks only work when the banshees assault, was there a FAQ that states it outright?

no. The codex just says "The First Round of the Assault"

It doesn't need clarification.

adreal
09-01-2011, 09:45
I've got all these eggs, but only one basket! What am I going to do?

I run 6 incubi (with onslaught klavex), naked haemmi, archon (with phantasm, ghostplate, agoniser, clonefield, haywires) in a raider, and the only time I regrete it is when I charge a unit (with combat character) and wiff my attacks

but by the time the unit i charged makes it through the incubi (remember I wiff my attacks) it's of little threat, and one of my ravagers will deal with it.

to the OP..........are you being serious?
Your complaining about charging a unit that is full of power weapons, and that always goes first (except against a greater daemon of slaanesh) beats a unit that has no way of getting an invul save, when you have a troops unit that exells at having an invun save in close combat, and can even reduce attacks coming at it (wyches incase you can't work it out)....

Really?
REALLY??

The Dark Eldar codex is a very well designed codex (even Incubi not having grenades is smart, makes the archon useful, loveless mentioned that in another post), which when used right can cover all the bases it needs to

N3p3nth3
09-01-2011, 10:26
I think the close combat part of the codex is pretty interesting. You have the heavily armored, str4 power weaponed Incubi and the dodging tarpit the wyches create, which most people are pointing out now. But you also have the rending, invulnerable saved Harlequins right in the middle, as a kind of close combat generalist unit between the two specialists.

Souleater
09-01-2011, 11:51
answer: shoot the banshees kill everything else with the incubi

Spoken like a true Archon. :evilgrin:

tezza21
09-01-2011, 11:56
It's a shame Gw never put a klavex into the pack like they do with the exharches in the aspect pack's

adreal
09-01-2011, 12:03
It's a shame Gw never put a klavex into the pack like they do with the exharches in the aspect pack's

That I agree with, although I run mine naked, had thier been an option in the pack I would have adjusted my list accordingly, but I've made a passible conversion so I'm happy

tezza21
09-01-2011, 12:05
Do you guys think GW will redo the drazar mini i think it would be sweet as i would just use him as a klavex