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Bad monkey
08-01-2011, 16:36
There seems to be an awful lot of negitivity about the hobby, and to be fair there always has been. Every time a new army comes out its broken, cheesy or nerfed. G' Dub is either dumbing down the game or making it too complex, and The BL are always going against the established background.

I have to say, I dont really agree with many of these points of view, and to be fair i find it all a bit boring, so I thought id stat a thread full of happy thoughts, so when your feeling a bit down about the hobby you can all come here and remember the joy playing with toy soliders brings.

so heres the gig,

list 5 things that you really like about the current hobby. f you cant think of any dont worry.

If all you can think about is bad thoughts please dont put any on here, lets not spoil the happy place.

I'll get the ball rolling.

1. I love the old school look deamons, not seen the rules, but thats how they looked when I started.

2. I love the way that some of the newer army books encorage you to play a certain way, eg warriors of chaos with the eye of god begs your lord to hunt out your oppentents heros.

3. The newer plasitc kits are awesome, sketons , skaven, empire. DOnt think iv seen kits that capture the feel of an army quite as much.

4. the revised frenzy rule...superb

5. the terrain kits are cracking...no more will I be battling over the toilet roll wizard tower,

anyways,

over to you chaps

Crube
08-01-2011, 16:38
Not news, not rumours, not WFB specific

Thread moved to GW general


Crube
The Warseer Inquisition

Chaos and Evil
08-01-2011, 17:10
Other GW, the place where positivity comes to die.

IVEATCH
08-01-2011, 18:04
Ahh yes, the positive aspects that seem to so rarely get actually mentioned due to the righteous streak that most of us posses.

I like the modeling portion of the game. Orks in particular can make for interesting conversions (along with the Skaven and High Eldar).

In addition, I like many of the people in the Gaming League that I've been playing with for the last five years. Good folks.

I also enjoy the many websites out there (including this one). They take a lot of work and effort.

Winning (or even lossing) a very close game is also fun. The best are games that come down to a single dice roll to decide. I don't think that I've ever seen anyone feel cheated about the last couple of hours spent on a game like that.

maximu160490
08-01-2011, 18:04
5 things:

1: Bloodbow
2: Black library stuff is cool
3: some of the new models look cool

hang, on thats it

sliganian
08-01-2011, 18:15
Hmm... let's see what I like about The Hobby:

1) The thunk of my metal Khador Jacks on the table
2) Having enough models for an hour long game that I can hold in two hands
3) Anticipation of new unit types that have been thoroughly playtested
4) Looking forward to doing snow and ice bases
5) Having a brew and snacks with friends as we try to out-maneuver and out-wit each other in a fast and furious tabletop wargame.

So there. 5 things about The Hobby that I like. :D
.
.
Oh, did you GW specific items? Oh dear....

Ozorik
08-01-2011, 19:46
By 'the hobby' I assume that you mean that small part of the wider wargaming/modelling hobby specific to games workshop?

Good things about GW-
They make high quality miniatures
They use interesting imagery
They are a visible part of wargaming and so attract new players
........
I can't think of anything else

In the past they made excellent games and created some original twists on older concepts. They also created a believably gothic Sci Fi setting (even if it did contain space elves) and a high fantasy world that didn't take itself too seriously with just about the correct amount of 'grim dark' without becoming a caricature. In addition to this the current positives still stood.

GW has also laid the foundations for the wargaming world of the future with most of the rising stars being founded/run/staffed by ex GW staff.

I would actually like to see GW becoming great again.

Charax
08-01-2011, 19:58
Things I like about The GW subsection of the Wargaming hobby:
1) The high prices that drive a healthy second-hand market where I can get almost anything I want for significantly under what they'd cost even if GW adopted a reasonable pricing strategy. I haven't bought anything direct from GW in about 6 years now, it's great!

2) The community, steeped in such hatred for something they enjoy so much, it's very entertaining to watch.

3) The background. At least the older background, before it became so steeped with clichés and ridiculously over-the-top one-upmanship that it became a parody of itself

4) The spinoff games. Epic's fantastic, Aeronautica Imperialis and Dark Heresy are great fun and Inquisitor will always hold a special place in my heart.

5) The licensed products (well, most of them) the Bulldog Buckles were nice, the computer games have almost all been fantastic (I even like Fire Warrior!)

Torpedo Vegas
08-01-2011, 20:06
Incredibly clever post.
Such rapier wit, truly.


As this is in GW general, I am going to assume we have to list things we like about the hobby in relation to GW and its games/models.
Things I like:
1) Giant armies clashing in huge battles. (Higher point WFB, Apocalypse, Epic/Warmaster)
2) Awesome lore and settings.
3) 8th ed WFB (don't hate me please.)
4)The feeling of satisfaction when seeing my massive, fully painted armies.
5)Massive player base

Miscellaneous: the new Dark Eldar and terrain kits are all awesome. As are the Ogre models.

lanrak
08-01-2011, 22:57
Hi all.
The best thing GW do for the wargaming hobby , is sort out the long term gamers and hobbiests from a sea of screaming kiddies.

And then let these valuable customers go to the other companies in the table top minature games industry.

If it wasnt for GW spending over HALF thier revenue on recruiting customers for the rest of the industry, the table top minature games industry would not be as big and diverse as it is now.

Good old GW.

TTFN

Palatine Katinka
10-01-2011, 12:44
Well, this is shocking. Someof the people on this thread should be ashamed of themselves (but I know you wont be). Hopefully karma will deliver to you the sharp kick to the face that I can't. Bad monkey has made a genuine plea for people to say what they like and to NOT COMMENT if all they have is bad thoughts. If you hate it so much why the hell are you wasting your time in a GW discussion forum? That was a rhetorical question. If it sparks up your ire and you feel you must respond, don't. I don't care about your negativity. GET THE HELL OUT OF MY HOBBY!

Now that's out of the way...
1. Beautifully sculpted models. (I buy models I like to look at, not always ones good for battle)
2. Painting said models.
3. Extensive backstory.
4. Room within the backstory to add my own ideas.
5. Chat with other gamers in store/gaming club/pub.
6. Those pleasant moments when you find someone on Warseer who is capable of reasonable discussion.
7. Those amusing moments when you meet someone new and a few days later the pair of you have the realisation that you are both secretly painting toy soldiers in your spare time.
8. Being a big kid and going "Raaargh foosh!" when charging in with a Dragon or Hydra.
9. Converting my own unique models.
10. Helping my fellow gamers by trying to find answers to the bizarre rules queries they manage to find.

So there's 10. I'll stop there but I'm sure I could come up with more if I tried. Hopefully that will counter some of the snide and sarcastic unwanted comments about.

Born Again
10-01-2011, 12:59
Ah yes. Warseer, where threads made with the express purpose of sharing positive thoughts gets crowded with cynicism and bad jokes.

I can give you a few:

* The models still impress and excite me.
* I have a good collection of terrain and a proper board at home with people who I enjoy playing with and give fun, exciting games.
* My painting skills have come along significantly, I can lay out an army and be proud of it approaching what I saw in books when I started all those years ago.
* Although much of it is too expensive for me, for those who can afford it there is a great range of terrain and other hobby bits available, from hills up to the RoB board, and things like the mega paint set... if I had the cash I'd get that just to get some uniformity in my paint collection, which currently spans 5 generations of Citadel colour, and have a neat case to keep them in.
* The fact that they've not written a story, but written a rich, evocative and deep setting that after 15 years I can still get thoroughly lost exploring in.
* The Ultramarines film. Brilliant!

There you go, I got 6 for you! Making up for some of the bad taste of others.

sigur
10-01-2011, 14:57
Other GW, the place where positivity comes to die.

Incidently, also the place where chaos and evil lurk. ;)


Five points I like about that whole thing:
.) The miniatures are good (mostly GW minis)
.) It's an awesome hobby (which I'd never known without GW)
.) The core backgrounds are good (created by GW)
.) It's something that doesn't happen on a computer screen and in which you create something
.) The market is developing in an exciting manner (and GW's a major part of it of course)

ColShaw
10-01-2011, 15:10
Five things I like:

1) The hobby has encouraged me to become a MUCH better painter than I ever would've been otherwise; I've nurtured and grown a skill that I otherwise would not possess.
2) I'm 29 and still get to play with toy soldiers! :)
3) The Imperial Guard.
4) Warhammer helped me become a better sport than I once was. I used to get really mad when I lost games of anything (I blame Monopoly, mostly). It helped me realize there were things other than winning that could be enjoyable. (This is why I don't play Ard Boyz; it wouldn't be good for me personally).
5) Making terrain.

Max Jet
10-01-2011, 15:24
No happy place on warseer?

Clearly the OP never bothered to visit the Mantic Games Sub Forum.
Don't expect me to believe in a general negative attitude then.

Exitas-Acta-Probat
10-01-2011, 18:37
1- modelling the cool stuff
2- painting the cool stuff
3- making dakka noises when i play (with the cool stuff)
4- rich background
5- developing people skills/how to lose with grace and win with humility.
i admit i lose more often than i win, but i dont mind because i have all the cool stuff :D

Etienne de Beaugard
11-01-2011, 23:57
Not meaning to be sarcastic of snippy, but most of the positive things I have found in the hobby have not come from GW.

Anyways, here goes:

1) The explosion of decent to down-right excellent plastic miniatures for historicals. I am especially enjoying the numerous dark ages offerings that have rolled out recently.

2) LotR:SBG mini rulebook. The rules set is really great for use with the above mentioned dark ages minis.

3) The breadth of discussion available on Warseer.

Fat_Lad1234
12-01-2011, 01:44
1. cool models
2. fun painting times due to above cool models
3. awesome fluff
4. a fun game system
5. all the friends I have that i would never had met had i not set foot in a GW.

Palatine Katinka
12-01-2011, 01:53
5. all the friends I have that i would never had met had i not set foot in a GW.

Good one. Yes. I second that and feel bad that I didn't think of it. What a good friend I am...:D

hekatonkheire
12-01-2011, 10:36
1. A genuinely mature setting. Books like the Gaunt's Ghosts and Shira Calpurnia series. Women in the Warmachine setting are obliged to marry an average of six times each! So that all the units in the rulebooks whose fluff hints darkly about widows weeping in the snow have a sufficient supply of married men to shoot, squish, whatever. Seriously, the Warmachine fluff reads like highschool fanfic compared to what GW produce.

2. Epic models. The Skaven Screaming Bell, the Forge World Great Unclean One, the Blood Angels Sanguinary Guard, and many more besides. There are some nice Warmachine models, and there are some very nicely-sculpted models for a lot of other systems, but the stuff GW produces has atmosphere that the others just lack.

Commandojimbob
12-01-2011, 10:44
1/. Fantastic setting
2/. Rich deep back stories
3/. Inconsistent fluff creates the illusion that its all told from multiple angels :D positive spin
4/. To see to large well painted armies on a beautiful mock battlefield is just cool (in a geeky way)!
5/. It is one of the best supported hobbies out there !

Daniel36
12-01-2011, 10:47
5 things I like;
- It gives me a perfect excuse to chill with my buddy and drink beer.
- That giddy feeling I get when I finally finished painting my units, which with my new army the Empire has really been firing up inside.
- The fact that it gives me a great platform for creativity.
- The new releases are (most of the time) completely awesome!
- I can share my hobby love with others, even when that sharing is being made more difficult by cynics and other such negativity.


3/. Inconsistent fluff creates the illusion that its all told from multiple angels positive spin
Genius, hadn't yet thought about it that way.

Hrafn
12-01-2011, 13:03
Incidently, also the place where chaos and evil lurk.

Is that "chaos and evil" without capitals, or...:p


No happy place on warseer?Clearly the OP never bothered to visit the Mantic Games Sub Forum.

On behalf of the PP Sub Forum I object too ;)


1. A genuinely mature setting.

:shifty: I think that we have a very different definition of "genuinely mature"...
Not that PP makes stellar background stuff, but saying that the kiddie-hammer editions of warhammer have mature writing or that Gaunt's Ghosts make for a mature setting is not something I can agree with.

Back on topic:
GW is damn good at making minis. IMHO, they are probably still the consistently best mini manufacturer there is. GW quality generally does not reach the same heights as for instance PP, but on the other hand, GW does not produce the same amount of stinkers. If anything, GW mini quality has gone up in the last few years, as evidenced by the nothing short of brilliant Dark Eldar.
GW makes really good plastic minis. They are detailed, sharp-edged and with plenty of extras to play around with. GW plastic minis can also be glued with plastic glue (PP players will know what I am talking about here ;) )
The Warhammer settings is still very evocative and especially 40K is a creative masterpiece. I think I'd prefer them to the Iron Kingdoms if circumstances were different.

hekatonkheire
12-01-2011, 15:15
:shifty: I think that we have a very different definition of "genuinely mature"...

Yeah, we probably do :) I didn't mean mature in the sense of adult, I meant that in the sense of the setting itself having been around long enough to have matured. Like how in the beginning when Eldar were just elves in space they were kind of lame, but now that they've evolved a good distance beyond that they've become their own thing.

Chaos and Evil
12-01-2011, 15:29
Is that "chaos and evil" without capitals, or...:p
My ears are burning :p

Palatine Katinka
12-01-2011, 18:54
Yeah, we probably do :) I didn't mean mature in the sense of adult,

Although... Defenders of Ulthuan and the Malus Darkblade series are fairly adult and the Liber Chaotica books are even branded as being for mature readers.

BrotherOfBrass
12-01-2011, 21:36
I'm coming up to 16 years in this hobby (roll on April!) and the OP is right; there always has been negativity towards GW, even before the internet. Regardless! There is one thing that keeps me in this hobby, and that is consistency. Perhaps not in background or rules (although it's nice that people are worried about Space Wolves being over-powered again;)) but of opportunities to play. I now play 40k and have started at Warmachine, my most regular foe plays 40k and Fantasy. Another plays 40k and Flames of War. Another plays 40k and MtG. Another hasn't bought a mini in years, but still plays 40k. Perhaps you can see where this is going. 16 years of wargaming and only one company keeps us all together and, for me, that's what I love about GW more than anyting else.

Bad monkey
13-01-2011, 11:38
Sorry for putting it in the wrong place...my bad,

anyways, good to see im not the only one that thinks theres lots of good things about the hobby,

I can't beleive i forgot to mention the social aspect of it....

anyways Im off to paint some dark elves before the mrs gets back.

Cheerio,

and play safe

Born Again
13-01-2011, 13:22
I can't believe I forgot to mention them, but chalk me up for the following also:

* the social element of the game. Some good friends play and it's a great way to spend time. I've also met new people through playing.

* the creative element, starting with a plastic sprue and ending up with a fully painted army you can look at and be proud of.

* sitting down with a paintbrush and working on a new unit is also a great way for me to blow off some steam.

Daniel36
13-01-2011, 16:01
Plus the missus agrees with this method of blowing of steam! >_<

DeeKay
16-01-2011, 21:47
Okay then, 5 positives about wargaming in general and 5 points about GW. That seems fair.

Wargaming:
1) The social aspect. I have met many people and made many friends that I would not have done otherwise.
2) Creativity has full rein here. You can make your imaginings real (to an extent)
3) There is a sense of achievement when a group is finished (as in painted, converted and ready to display).
4) Some of the games are actually quite good, I'll leave it for others to decide on which ones they prefer.
5) The worlds created by many of these games can be incredibly immersive. It can feel as though you are really there.

GW:
1) The 40k universe is one of the most immersive of all the worlds out there.
2) Chaos (from Liber Chaotica and sources before they re-designed Daemons) is one of the most inspiring things I've come across for modelling and converting.
3) Without GW, I would not have discovered more wargames in general, much less better designed games.
4) Because the rules for GW games aren't really designed for competitive play, you can alter the rules quite extensively to suit everyone involved.
5) Some GW guys can be pretty cool. I brought in my bits box so that people could rummage through for parts. The staff didn't mind that I asked for donations. Well, with the proceeds going to a local cat home, I suppose they couldn't argue.

With regards,
Dan.

Jack Shrapnel
18-01-2011, 15:28
My five:

1) It's allowed me to share a hobby with my son, and we get to spend alot of time together having fun playing and talking about this hobby. I'm lucky to have that kind of relationship with my 16 year old kid, and GW is partially to credit for that.
2) I've developed a half decent skill at painting - before GW games I never painted a miniature - even after many years of role-playing games.
3) GW makes some great miniatures.
4) The social aspect is alot of fun - we have a great gaming community here, and we play a diverse amount of games, but WHFB and 40K are the staples.
5) The game is fun. say what you will about all the negative or unbalanced things... when I play these games I have fun and laugh alot. Thanks GW.

tezdal
18-01-2011, 20:09
I'm happy with the hobby, especially since quitting GW's games. Ooodles of plastic historicals coming out, sci miniatures of every stripe to buy, life is good.

jedideinos
18-01-2011, 22:06
My five:
1) Paintingand converting minis to match the fluff: it's a great relaxer after work.
2) the models just seem to keep improving.
3) The social angle.
4) Forgeworld
5) Battlefleet gothic

Okuto
21-01-2011, 08:23
Hmmm five

1: building the models themselves is very fun, orcs esp.
2: Very happy with the variety of IG nowadays
3: Enjoy the fluff
4: Having the occasional geek moment with a pal
5: worldwide campaigns....Storm of Chaos brings back happy memories of stompin Chaos

Coasty
21-01-2011, 09:19
In reverse order:

5. WFB Orcs
4. Epic Orks.
3. BFG Orks
2. 40K Orks

And new in the chart, straight to number 1:

(Unnecessary amount of fanfare and farting about)

1. Gorkamorka!



P.S. I like Orks.

Killgore
21-01-2011, 13:03
1) Black Library- I do like to read about 40K
2) The Background- fantastic Universes that GW craft for us
3) ForgeWorld- Imperial Armour Books are great and the models are fantastic
4) Gives me something to do- What would I do in my spare time if I didnt have 40K? probaly a different hobby that involves spending more money then what I would on GW
5) Friendships- got a good circle of local gamers

Coasty
21-01-2011, 13:16
4) Gives me something to do- What would I do in my spare time if I didnt have 40K? probaly a different hobby that involves spending more money then what I would on GW


Short of aviation I can't think what that would actually be...

Raellos
21-01-2011, 14:40
Coasty, great no. 1!

I find that my other hobbies tend to end up following a similar path of escalation as Warhammer. For instance, home brewing now costs nearly as much as beer does at the shop, but because it turned me into a beer snob I tend to get expensive beer when I do go shopping.

On to the topic, I've only got a couple of good things, but they are rather broad.

I like the social aspect of the games.
I like the broader background of the game, which feeds into the
Creative bits whether painting or converting, or developing a story for characters on the tabletop or a whole sector crusade.

Serpent
21-01-2011, 15:30
In no particular order:

* Friends. People I would never have met if it wasn't for moving small armies of plastic and metal little soldiers about. People I'd be happy to have a beer with or discuss anything with. There are ****** in this hobby, but the good guys and girls are the persons you keep...
* Painting. I'm into theatre, and this part of the hobby really speaks to me. I like being creative and I think a finished model is a very satisfying thing to place on the gamin table. And mixing colours is really fun.
* Modelling. As above, but with sculpture.
* Background. It may be a bit cheesy and angled towards kids sometimes, but the background of 40K is quite good.
* Specialist games. Blood Bowl got me hooked on the hobby (gaming) in the first place, and both Mordheim and Necromunda are very fun modelling niches.

Killgore
21-01-2011, 17:15
Short of aviation I can't think what that would actually be...

There have been numerous threads in the past discussing the cost of other hobbies/ forms of entertainment compared to GW games, but this thread is not the place to rehash those discussions

Bad monkey
22-01-2011, 11:25
aye lets keep this about the positives chaps, plenty of other threads to moans about things in.

Coasty
22-01-2011, 16:18
There have been numerous threads in the past discussing the cost of other hobbies/ forms of entertainment compared to GW games, but this thread is not the place to rehash those discussions

That would have been a joke.

Am I really going to have to plumb the depths of emoticon usage?

TheBloodyHand
24-01-2011, 14:26
This is the first thread I've actually wanted to respond to in a while. I like positive. So my five:
1. The miniatures. (they stole my heart almost 8 years before I ever started playing)
2. The friendships.
3. Having 2 game systems that rock, that I can swap back and forth between as my whim takes me
4. The beatiful wife that understands.
5. Did I mention the miniatures? Seriously, this IS my hobby. I spend more time with them than rules, friends and forums combined. In fact this thread has helped remind me of something "I'd rather be painting." thanks.

stubbyadams
22-02-2011, 12:25
As a newcomer maybe Im not the best to respond to this, but I can at least tell you what attracts me to the hobby.

I have never played a game, not in any real sense, but I have been reading lots of stories of struggles and tourneys and rumpus room campaigns that I feel like I have been playing it for years. There is so much enthusiasm for the game and a rich community around it that I can't resist getting involved.

I love looking at the Golden Demon awards every year, I remember the first one I saw I assumed the model must have been at least a foot tall to paint so much life and detail into it, and was truly shocked when I realised it was no more than an inch tall! And this is really what is driving me... the desire to create an army that may never win a game, but will look spectacular doing it :)

x-esiv-4c
22-02-2011, 12:36
1). Necromunda
2). Painting / modelling dark mechanicus whilst drinking Imperial-White with 80s movies on in the background
3). Necromunda
4). Other specialist games
5). Squats

Havock
22-02-2011, 13:05
2. I love the way that some of the newer army books encorage you to play a certain way, eg warriors of chaos with the eye of god begs your lord to hunt out your oppentents heros.

Not to spoil your fun but that example does not work that way :p

As for the positivity: No matter how crappy the systems may be and my alleged loyalty to other systems, I am still enjoying my games of warhammer (40k) and the tournaments I attend, my mindset is a bit different nowadays though.

Havock
23-02-2011, 00:34
x- The tears that flow deliciously when my legion hits the table.
The cries of "b0rked and OP" are what lulls me to sleep at night.

Danteng7
23-02-2011, 06:13
5 things i like:

1) Beautiful & detailed minis.
2) The extensive background.
3) White dwarf (not as good as before though).
4) Blood Angels!
5) It makes me realised that I can paint a bit!

Fugazi
23-02-2011, 07:27
1). Necromunda
2). Painting / modelling dark mechanicus whilst drinking Imperial-White with 80s movies on in the background
3). Necromunda
4). Other specialist games
5). Squats

We could be friends. Esp. 2.

1. Bloodbowl
2. Rogue Trader
3. I paint at a glacial pace, but I enjoy painting when I can get around to it. With beer.
4. Miniatures are cool.
5. Nostalgia of looking at the old minis and catalogs. Also with beer.

shelfunit.
23-02-2011, 08:04
We could be friends. Esp. 2.

1. Bloodbowl
2. Rogue Trader
3. I paint at a glacial pace, but I enjoy painting when I can get around to it. With beer.
4. Miniatures are cool.
5. Nostalgia of looking at the old minis and catalogs. Also with beer.

Similar here, but I like to use paint :p .

Fugazi
23-02-2011, 08:09
Similar here, but I like to use paint :p .

Maybe that's why it's taking me so long.

Pigboyneo
24-02-2011, 21:54
Well if it has to be good points;

*Specialist Games still one of the best aspects GW got IMO
*40k Fluff, some of the new stuff is abit :wtf: but the good really does out weigh the bad
*Great models
*The ever increaseing range of 40k computer games, more love to THQ but without GW there would never be DoW

(And point number 5,this really will seem like a **** take but am really starting to see it as a good point)

*GW over pricing their models so much, that soon I will be able to sell my armies off and make a profit! :D

~Revenant~
25-02-2011, 06:11
1 LOTR rules and minis ( I used to hate lotr btw and this was before GW ).

2 The plastics, the technology and the over all sculpting quality of GW is loads better, GW used to always say *oh this is some of our best plastic yet* well within the last few years that has actually been valid.

3 Alot of more options to kit out special types of units ( ie marked or chapters or what have you ).

4 The scenery...it's good...it has alot of options, we finally have scenery available that can really enhance the overall gaming tables without having to spend days working on things ourselves, on the flip side there needs to be alot more on the FB and LOTR side of things.

5 Foundation paints and Washes, finally we have washes that behave how they should have years ago, don't get me wrong I still like the inks for some things ( currently have some 80% full from the EXPERT paint set!!! and even use some W&N inks ), the washes are so good ( for vets and noobs ) that they really enhance the look of most peoples armies, and obviously the high pigment load of the foundation range is very handy for those of us not wanting to deal with multiple base coats or layers.

Ok so aside from #1 I think these are all objective and totally valid positive things about GW, I'm not in the camp that everything they do is negative, I simply miss alot of the GW "charm and character" that used to exist, to be honest if they went back to some of the past such as specialist like games and other cool stuff and released some classics I would not complain too much.

Personally speaking while I can understand alot of the complains over GW and yea some are very valid and many of GW's choices are just baffling, the loss of their identity from the 80s and early 90s was something that really caused many of their problems with fan outrage and disgust, there needs to be aspects to the current GW that lets vets still know that there is a part of GW that is "Gamers for gamers" they can make money and keep certain prices but their attitude needs to change in ways that it still makes vets feel at home.