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Logan_uc
08-01-2011, 23:55
Ok SM confirmed that Sisters are in the making, so its a good time to start the wishlisting tread IMHO.

So let loose all the dreams and hopes of those who are looking forward to there release, from the simplification of acts of faith to a titan size hello kitty that fires giant lasers from her eyes.

So lets begin...

Still Standing
08-01-2011, 23:58
Heavy Flamers on Retributors.

Hit and Run on a Canoness if she joins Seraphim.

Inquisitor Gabriel Ashe
09-01-2011, 00:07
I disagree; Heavy Flamers on Dominions! I concur on the Canoness Hit&Run.

Add a Biker squad (not the chunky SM bikes, but something that looks more agile) and call them Ophanim!

Lower some upgrade costs. Update vehicles to 5th edition costs.

Keep the Sisters as the shooty focused Power Armour army.

Still Standing
09-01-2011, 00:10
Heavy flamers on Retributors is more likely, seeing as they used to have them.

I would hate them to get bikes. Would give further ammo to the "they are only female Marines" camp.

daboarder
09-01-2011, 00:14
an all seraphim list would also be nice.

Inquisitor Gabriel Ashe
09-01-2011, 00:17
Heavy flamers on Retributors is more likely, seeing as they used to have them.

I would hate them to get bikes. Would give further ammo to the "they are only female Marines" camp.
I guess we just have to disagree.

The all Seraphim army would be nice. The rule could be similar to SM Capts on bikes: "If your army contains a Canoness with a Jump Pack, Seraphim squads can be taken as Troop choices."

Mcbruce
09-01-2011, 00:25
New main battle tank with either a big flamer or melta weapon.
Grenades and pistols as standard for sisters (similar to the marines)
Options for defensive grenades
Medic for the Canoness bodyguard
Proper arbites (not stormtroopers with shotguns), options for shock mauls and suppression shields, cyber mastiffs - all the good stuff.
Repressor
Fixed rate of fire for the exorcist and for every weapon destroyed result it loses one shot (it is our only long range anti tank)
Streamline acts of faith
More holy relics, the dark eldar have their list of arcane wargear, sisters get holy relics - lots of 0-1 choices.
More religious elements - confessors/missionaries as HQ, frateris militia as troops.
That'll do for now.

Inquisitor Gabriel Ashe
09-01-2011, 00:34
I'd love to see a 36" Melta "cannon" (Just Heavy 1, no blast) or a Flamestorm Cannon Tank to replace the Immolator in Heavy Support.

I've actually come to appreciate the lack of standard grenades on basic sisters. It encourages them to stick to their role. Seraphim squads come with since they're supposed to get up in CC. Celestians should get them, though.

I imagine the Canoness bodyguard will become more like an "Honour Guard". This would give them a chance to throw in a Sister Hospitaller.

Mcbruce
09-01-2011, 00:42
I've actually come to appreciate the lack of standard grenades on basic sisters. It encourages them to stick to their role. Seraphim squads come with since they're supposed to get up in CC. Celestians should get them, though.


I suppose I can live without the assault grenades on basic sisters, but the option for defensive grenades should be there given they are a close range firefight army who don't do well in close combat, anything to take the sting off would be appreciated.

Inquisitor Gabriel Ashe
09-01-2011, 00:46
Now defensive grenades would be an interesting addition. I like that. Sorry I didn't see that in your post before.

Another thing that needs to be added to the codex: Fluff! Lots!

ChaosTicket
09-01-2011, 03:22
Seraphim need to be changed as 5th pistol rules made them, umm bad.

I want the sisters to have heavy weapons among their squads like heavy bolters and missile launchers, maybe lascannons and plasma guns(hmm no plasma cannons).

five word, Allow...ARMOR...ON...PENITENT ENGINES so they arent open topped, a little cheaper and remove 0-1s in the army.

Frag & maybe Krak grenades should be standard, as well as Bolt Pistols.

Some new tank MIGHT be needed, with some melta cannon and heavy flame/heavy bolter sponsors.

Exorcists should be clear that weapon destroyed results give -1 to their weapon, and I would like their shots to be D6+1.

Stormtroopers should change to be more like they are now, with "new" hellguns.

Toldavf
09-01-2011, 04:54
Make celestians worth taking they aren't much better that standard sisters some would argue they are worse as they aren't scoring. (special rounds could be an option but I'd have reservations)

Make the hyper fanatical and faithful sisters repentia an actual faithful unit.

Give the living saint a truly ridiculous stat line. :p

Avoid any Bael predator impersonators.

Characters could bestow blessings on the army/units before battle perhaps purchased as upgrades?

Melta rockets would be cool. :p

Make a sarisa a squad upgrade

A crusader unit would be cool.

AlexHolker
09-01-2011, 05:22
Make the hyper fanatical and faithful sisters repentia an actual faithful unit.
As I see it, if a Repentia could use Acts of Faith she would no longer be a Repentia, as she's clearly been forgiven by the Emperor for whatever transgression she committed.


Give the living saint a truly ridiculous stat line. :p
Here's an idea: give her a 1+ Invulnerable save.


Make a sarisa a squad upgrade
Something I've suggested: have the Sarissa enable Rapid Fire + Assault too, and give it to Celestians as standard.

Others from the other thread:
Give all high ranking Sisters the option to dual-wield pistols or carry heavy weapons. Give Heroines Hit & Run when equipped with a jump pack.

Let other Sisters disengage from melee on the turn Repentias charge: a "Run, we will hold them off!" rule.

A Hospitaller + Bodyguard non-combatant unit that heals nearby wounded (6" FNP aura).

Gatsby
09-01-2011, 06:56
Honestly, as it is the codex is very solid, i hope they dont stray to much from what it is now, a medium ranged power armored gunline. I could see the Exorcists being improved a bit, as well as the seraphim, as they have been rather nerfed by comparison to the rest of the army. I would like to see faith remain (maybe streamlined) what it is, i see it as the balancing force that makes the Sisters so good and has allowed them to stay viable against even the current power dex's. Faith makes them unpredictable as with 1 or 2 exceptions all the acts get used (and even those 1 or 2 get used in the right circumstance.)

Souleater
09-01-2011, 09:15
Firstly, a balanced codex. Fixing units like Repentia and AF.

Decently written fluff - more emphasis on the Church, less on the OH. I don't mind sisters working with the OH.

More heavy weapon options for BS squads.

While the Holy Trinity of weapons is a cool sounding idea I feel that for some roles a few standard imperial weapons need to be introduced. e.g. Melta shells for Retributors toting missle launchers. Plasma can burn the unbeliever - for example I'd like to see Dominions able to take Plasma Guns.

No high heels.

snaketrap
09-01-2011, 09:39
Decently written fluff - more emphasis on the Church, less on the OH.

More emphasis on the Sisters themselves, please. The Sisters books must be the only codexes where a majority of the fluff content isn't about the soldiers, but about the administration behind them. The original codex has a wealth of awesome fluff, but most of it is about the history of the Imperium and the church, with very, very little info about the Adeptus Soroitas themselves. The Witch Hunters codex is even worse. Compare this to ANY other codex which is full of fluff about the actual units you'll be using in your games, the battles they fight, the heroes that lead them... I mean, I bought the army way back in 2nd edition because I was interested in THE SISTERS OF BATTLE, not the Administrators of Imperial Dogma, The Agents of the Inquisition or the Fat men in Robes and their Bladed Freakshow. It';s time that the Sisters were actually given the spotlight in their own codex.

eldargal
09-01-2011, 10:03
Make pure SoB armies the focus of the Codex with ecclesiarchy units secondary and no Inquisition nonsense in it and I'll be happy. Agree fully with snaketrap above re the fluff.

Oh, and make all their units worth taking.

AlexHolker
09-01-2011, 10:32
I definitely agree on the need for more Sisters-centric fluff, but I would like the Inquisitrix to remain in the army list, as it's a handy way to represent hangers-on like Arbite Judges or powerful Nulls and their retinues.

Serpent
09-01-2011, 10:44
I actually like the Exorcists as they are, the randomness adds another aspect for me. If they're given a set amount of shots, I feel the points will be upped as well...

I feel that only a few units need to be fixed for a new Codex: Repentia, Dominions and... Well, that's it really. :) And giving the Hit&Run to a Canoness in a Seraphim unit. Serpahim need a slight cut in their points cost, but apart from that, I'm all good. As long as the girls can keep their Guard allies (or something similar).

If not, I'm stranded with 45 converted Guardswomen...

eldargal
09-01-2011, 10:48
True enough, I was a little harsh. I just meant put the focus in SoB and keep the rest to a minimum. I do want an Inquisitrix with my SoB archaeological team afterall.:)


I definitely agree on the need for more Sisters-centric fluff, but I would like the Inquisitrix to remain in the army list, as it's a handy way to represent hangers-on like Arbite Judges or powerful Nulls and their retinues.

scar face
09-01-2011, 10:53
Not sure if this has been said, but exorcists could be barrage.

scar

Souleater
09-01-2011, 11:11
I agree that Codex SoB should focus on the SoB. Hence my desire for Adepta Sororitas units to get a wider range of options.

Churchmen and OH should definately be secondary - the GK rumour thread has it that options won't be taken away from them.

Logan_uc
09-01-2011, 16:44
lets see:

focus on SoB.

streamline faith.

scratch dominion squads and give sisters a extra special.

seraphim squads get str 4 (as they use bolt pistols in cc), hand flamers are PW in cc, and Inferno pistols are PF, that should make them a decent cc unit.

retinue for HQ with representatives of the non militant orders.

new dakka weapon to substitute storm bolter.

fixed number of shots for exorcist.

new tank and units.

some way to make flamers and melta weapons better (it just feels right in sisters with all that burn the heretic thing)

lots of new plastic models.

expand the fluff.

get daemonifuge in the codex, at least as background as I have waited for years to know what happened to her.

eviscerator as a weapon upgrade for sisters superior.

stop using the abbreviation "SoB" to refer sisters of battle, its not polite.

this should make me happy as a squirrel in a nut house.

ChaosTicket
09-01-2011, 17:09
The non-militant orders dont enter the battlefield, like Order Hospitaller arent apothecaries but rather Mission Nurses, and other order check bloodlines, spy on potential traitors, etc. Militant orders are the military order, kind of in the title.

hand Flamers becoming power weapons in melee, umm no, Burnas only get that because the orks change from big flamethrower to a welding torch with 1200+ degrees fahrenheit. Inferno pistols however should be power weapons.

Dominions squads are ok, as they have double the special weapons of a normal squad and are mounted in Rhino or Immolator.

melta Missiles would be very nice, but then they would carry over to Marines, even some Guardsmen, like the Veterans, which would also be very nice.

Some Plasma weapons just should be added, as they fit very well with "Burn the Heretics" and functionally give the Sisters some MEQ weapons besides the Meltagun.

The Sisters do need something better than the Immolator, which is just an light IFV transport, but a real battle tank. The exorcists is great as a Anti tank tank, but they need some to fight swarms of mutants, armed probably with a combination of melta, flamer, and bolter weapons.
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Ordo Hereticus elements should stay, but also put some Adeptus Arbites in there.

The WD fluff about the Adeptus Sororitas should be added to the codex as it gives alot of information such as different orders, their roots as the Daughters of the Emperor, the Reign of Blood, establishment of the Ordo Hereticus, etc.

Inquisitor Gabriel Ashe
09-01-2011, 17:17
Well Logan, you want Seraphim to be way too expensive. I don't think those equivalences are appropriate. They should just give them close combat weapons in addition to their pistols.

I think the fixed shots on the Exorcist would be a detriment since they'd have to reduce the shots to probably 2 or make it more expensive. GW will probably do it, though.

There could be an act of faith to make the weapons in a squad twin-linked. That'd take care of making the SoB's weapons better.

Eviscerator already is a choice for all VSS. . . . just a poor one.

And I like the concept of the Dominions! You leave them alone! Granted, basic sisters could use a 1 per 5 on special weapons if they keep the max squad size at 20. Dominions just need to have their special weapons costs reduced.

AlexHolker
09-01-2011, 17:23
The non-militant orders dont enter the battlefield, like Order Hospitaller arent apothecaries but rather Mission Nurses, and other order check bloodlines, spy on potential traitors, etc. Militant orders are the military order, kind of in the title.
We have at least one example of a Sister Hospitaller accompanying the Sisters of Battle in the field, and that's good enough for me.


The WD fluff about the Adeptus Sororitas should be added to the codex as it gives alot of information such as different orders, their roots as the Daughters of the Emperor, the Reign of Blood, establishment of the Ordo Hereticus, etc.
The only part of the WD fluff that I really want transferred into the codex is the information on Alicia Dominica and her retinue. We already know all that other stuff, because it's pretty much the only fluff they bothered to put into either of the previous codices. Give us stories about the Sisters of Battle, not a dry history of their organisation.

ChaosTicket
09-01-2011, 17:30
Costs reduction for dominion weapons would be nice, but at the same time they have a higher concentration, like special weapon armed devastator-type squads.
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Storm bolters should stay as they are mobile dakka, compared to heavy bolters which are static dakka.

celestians are ok, they are whole unit with faith points for every member and basically Preferred enemy versus every enemy, for 2 points above regular Sororitas. the problem is that they arent a melee squad and/or MEQs. they still act mainly as a Sororitas squad, are cheaper than marines, and can be full 10 units.

Exorcists have an average of 3-4 shots per "volley".

Seraphim's overall image is them double-tapping their bolt pistols then jumping into combat or flying off. So obviously they should get some rule that allows them to double fire their pistols and then assault or Hit & Run.

ChaosTicket
09-01-2011, 17:34
We have at least one example of a Sister Hospitaller accompanying the Sisters of Battle in the field, and that's good enough for me.


The only part of the WD fluff that I really want transferred into the codex is the information on Alicia Dominica and her retinue. We already know all that other stuff, because it's pretty much the only fluff they bothered to put into either of the previous codices. Give us stories about the Sisters of Battle, not a dry history of their organisation.

get this image in your head. Imperial Guardsmen taken off the front line because of severe injuries to medical facilities then Ordo Hospitaller sisters conformting them like WW2 nurses and some female doctors.

that's the Ordo Hospitaller in a nutshell, Missions Nurses helping people for goodwill.. You can at present represent them using Inquisitor minions, but they cant "fix up" people like Painboys or Apothecaries

Inquisitor Gabriel Ashe
09-01-2011, 17:38
And as Inquisitor minions, they allow the Inquisitor to ignore wounds. That's not too far off from FNP.

Mcbruce
09-01-2011, 17:46
Any thoughts on specialised bolter rounds for elite units namely some sort of incendiary round which gives a re-roll to wound? Just a thought.

ChaosTicket
09-01-2011, 18:03
Inferno rounds MAybe. So far specialised rounds are limited to Deathwatch and Sternguard. I dont think it would be out of place for elite Sororitas to have it, but rather they would get a big cost increase like them, so having 20pts Sororitas isnt something I want to see.

Its also sort of thing based that the special rounds are made for certain anti-xenos specialisation, like kraken rounds can easily take out fire warriors 'eavy armor nobz, etc.
Again that doesnt blacklist them for the sororitas.

Logan_uc
09-01-2011, 18:07
ChaosTicket, its not like ww2 nurses where never put in the front line when needed to help wounded soldiers, or that witch hunters already have them, or other non militant personnel for that matter, for hand flamers as power weapons, its just a question of adding a line saying that seraphim squads use specially modified ones.

Inquisitor Gabriel Ashe, ok +1str costs 2pts, but if seraphims are to be a decent unit they should go down in price even with the extra str, of course the weapons with the new special rules should be priced accordingly.

But in the end this is just wishlisting, a guy can dream can't he?

AlexHolker
09-01-2011, 18:13
You can at present represent them using Inquisitor minions, but they cant "fix up" people like Painboys or Apothecaries
We've got rules from both of the previous codices and an example from Faith and Fire for Sisters acting as field medics. And frankly, it's far more interesting to let some subset of the Orders Hospitaller contribute in the game instead of just being an artifact of the fluff.

ChaosTicket
09-01-2011, 18:23
Ok Ive seen too many images of Astartes in power armor shrugging off flamers, but then get blasted to nothing by plasma weapons.

Inferno pistols are focused energy compared to flamethrowers that, are well flamethrowers. They follow oxygen trails and armor like astartes power armor is both heat resistant and has auxillary oxygen, so can become completly enclosed, so flamethrowers can barely affect them.

It doesnt have some merit, but I use welders, and to make cutting flames requires a far more narrow and small flames, while changing the oxygen mixture. If they could do that with hand flamers(which have notably less fuel than regular flamers) they would end up with a cutting flame only a few inches long and enough fuel for only a few minutes. using something like Promethium which has more unknown properties and is a liquid form could allow them great length of cutting flame, however.
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Oh and in WW2 they Navy Hospital Corpsmen and there were medics, not nurses on the battlefield. In fact I find it particularly vile to send unarmed women to die. You just put a bad taste in mouth.
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I am not saying that the Sororitas dont have medical personel, but rather that they arent part of the Ordo Hospitaller but rather part of the Militant Order.

ghoulio
09-01-2011, 18:31
For me I want to see an army that is fun to play against (as I dont collect sisters, never will). For me personally, I *hated* the faith point system. I hate that it interupted my turn. I think of all the things that is what I would like to see re-worked the most. Another thing that would be nice to see is more variation on units you can take. Nothing but the same battle sister squad in Immolators/Rhinos as well as Excorsists was super super boring.

As far as the models go, I am happy to hear that the minis are being redone and hopefully we wont get any of those completely silly sisters with giant chainswords wearing 2 scraps of cloth having a 4+ save. Just seems like "fap" material for 13 year olds instead of an army that you had to take seriously. After seeing what they did with the DE and their Wyches, there is no reason they can't do it for this army.

ChaosTicket
09-01-2011, 18:36
In various sources they are said to be wearing carapace armor instead of the Sororitas power but in others they are wearing little clothes like the models, making them indeed "fap material for 13 year olds".

having nothing but Rhinos, Immolators, and Exocists is a problem but at the same time they dont have Sentinels, land Raiders, land Speeders, Leman Russ tanks, etc.

alot of people want new vehicles but its an argument over what..

Gatsby
09-01-2011, 18:39
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Oh and in WW2 they Navy Hospital Corpsmen and there were medics, not nurses on the battlefield. In fact I find it particularly vile to send unarmed women to die. You just put a bad taste in mouth.
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so think of these girls less like unarmed nurses, and more like the modern armed combat medic, they carry rifles (if they have removed their red crosses, as lets face it, that just makes you a target) they engage targets, they hold positions, they do everything a soldier does, however should someone in their unit be injured, they patch them up.

SOB units having some sort of universal reroll/FNP/someotherbonus to represent the fact that they ARE medical trained (maybe every 5 girls in a unit count towards an apothecary) is not a stretch.

Edit: oh that "fap material for 13 year olds" are sisters repentia, they effectively WANT to die to make up for their sins against the Emperor, its actually something that is common in many religious armies. However its usually men, and these types of units DON'T (typically) wear armor as they are showing their devotion to their religious figure.

ChaosTicket
09-01-2011, 18:43
yes armed medics among the Militants Orders makes sense, otherwise they would suffer unnecessary casualties.

I wonder if Feel No Pain is becoming over used. Originally it was limited to Death Company, then added to Khorne Champions in the 3.5 chaos codex. It is certainly a good skill allowing units greater survivability against ranged attacks but unless that medic is giving everyone Morphine(and Astartes already have pain killer injectors in their armor) it doesnt exactly make sense that medics can give it out.

AlexHolker
09-01-2011, 19:01
In fact I find it particularly vile to send unarmed women to die. You just put a bad taste in mouth.
Nice strawman. The whole point of my implementation is that the medic can stay in cover instead of being part of the squad getting shot up, and has a squad of bodyguards devoted to her protection.


As far as the models go, I am happy to hear that the minis are being redone and hopefully we wont get any of those completely silly sisters with giant chainswords wearing 2 scraps of cloth having a 4+ save. Just seems like "fap" material for 13 year olds instead of an army that you had to take seriously. After seeing what they did with the DE and their Wyches, there is no reason they can't do it for this army.
My problem with the Repentia is not that they're not wearing enough clothing, it's that they're wearing the wrong clothing. If they were wearing the torn remains of their tunic or something like that, it would bother me less than the lingerie that passes for a Repentia uniform.

I'd also want to use my take on the Repentia, that they are not death seekers, and that however slim the possiblity, they might redeem themselves without dying. And the Mistress would be armed with her Initiative-boosting whips primarily so she can incapacitate and kill the most dangerous foes before they can kill her charges, not for whipping them.

ChaosTicket
09-01-2011, 19:28
They sort of are, the sororitas are overtly religious and repentia are sisters that have "failed" the emperor. One example is a young sororitas in Faith and Fire failed to guard powerful witch from being rescued by possessed ratings on a ship before he was to be transferred to a Black Ship, and became a Repentia after her failure, ending up dying after killing a pyro-witch.

The Repentia also are sisters that are fighting to regain position of regular battle sisters. Those are the ones with Carapace armor.

The two types are confusing as both are in the fiction.
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Again Militant orders having armed combat medics is ok, and very reasonable, but having the unarmored and unarmed civilian nurses and doctors of Ordo Hospitaller on a battlefield seems...(some vile word to describe sadists).

The Ordo Hospitaller being used as a minion for and ordo hereticus makes sense as those minions are lightly armed and armored, while largely staying away from heavy combat and instead assisting the Inquisitor.

That is another thing, Inquisitors and their minions should be able to have more Warriors Minions or be able to join others as ICs.

Inquisitor Gabriel Ashe
09-01-2011, 19:46
Wasn't Celestine a Sister Repentia before she became a Living Saint?

Astraeos
09-01-2011, 19:50
If they're going to add priests again, I wanna see Missionaries go back to being along the lines of what they were in the 2nd edition codex.

A lot's already been said, but no one has mentioned special characters. It irks me slightly that in a book called Codex Sisters of Battle, there were only two Sororitas special characters and five male priests!
So yeah, I'd like to see lots of new Special characters, and bring back Helena the Virtuous and Saint Praxedes along with Celestine.

EDIT- Yeah, Celestine was a Repentia before she became the Living Saint.

MajorWesJanson
09-01-2011, 20:04
Again Militant orders having armed combat medics is ok, and very reasonable, but having the unarmored and unarmed civilian nurses and doctors of Ordo Hospitaller on a battlefield seems...(some vile word to describe sadists).

Sounds very Imperial to me, honestly. Between the Administratum, Inquisition, Munitorum, I doubt there is anyone who has a problem sending unarmed medics to the front. The Emperor protects the faithful.

I'd like so see a new heavy vehicle, sort of like the Land Raider for the sisters. Could make a combined kit that makes a MBT or a mobile war shrine. Like the Malcador in plastic, but with Sister stylings. I would say use the Land Raider chassis, but they are Astartes only.

ChaosTicket
09-01-2011, 20:06
When the brought priests in 3rd edition, they just quite sucked as they prevent the unit from firing heavy weapons, must move every turn, and in the end only plus is that you get is reroll hits on charge.

They did have a missionary with a plasma gun, and you can have 1 per Hereticus army. Priests could have power swords(and still can).

I never use priests unless I want arco flaggelants or penitent engines, then I shove him in a repentia squad.
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There are alot of cardinals, heroes and the like, so yeah they should be added.

As for an ancient super-heavy tank/mobile shrine, why not?

harlekin
09-01-2011, 20:30
Regarding special rounds, I think "blessed ammunition" is similar to hellfirerounds. Maybe an upgrade for Celestians as well as sarisas. In this line maybe also holy Promethium?

For Seraphim maybe Shooting in combat instead of punching - well, they have one shot less, but a stronger one as their basic strength? The only prob would be the handflamer but perhaps he just skips.
Those are just suggestions, and , well in fact I like the whole Inq-stuff, though the focus could be more on the ecclesiarchy-site.
All in all there are a great mass of options.

Rolf
09-01-2011, 20:34
keep in the main as is. Just bring the points in to line and introduce a few new elements like maybe a sister chareter in a dreadnought.

and make the faith system less complicated. I love it, just wish it was easier.

ChaosTicket
09-01-2011, 20:50
Oh you mean Penitent engines, they already have those.

Inquisitor Gabriel Ashe
09-01-2011, 20:55
On that note: Make Penitent Engines desirable. They're a bit uncontrollable for my tastes.

ChaosTicket
09-01-2011, 20:57
I think it's mainly fluff. they are supposed to be religious fanatics hooked up to the machines until they can kill enough or die to regain the Emperor or more accurately the Ecclesiarchy's favor.

Inquisitor Gabriel Ashe
09-01-2011, 21:04
Now if they made them 2-3 Wound MCs with 6 Toughness. . . .

ChaosTicket
09-01-2011, 21:07
make them 4 wounds and give them at least a 3+ save and you have a start, maybe allow them some armored shell and raise it to 2+.

No-One
09-01-2011, 21:38
you know what i'd love to see? a Living Saint entry that is non-special character, give them the option of jumppacks/wings, various different relic weaponry, different armor options, all that jazz, maybe even some special abilities that can be bought for them

imagine two completely different crusades, one led by Saint Whats-Her-Name, her gold armor resplendant, holy bolter shining and holy sword enwrapped in righteous flames as she flits across the battlefield bringing destruction to the enemies of the Emperor. she brings death like an angel, taking to the sky on wings gifted to her by the Emperor and when she alights on the ground, only death and flames meet the enemy, all by her hand.

on the other hand, imagine Saint Whats-His-Name, stomping forward in his intricately adorned terminator armor, holy light taking the form of the Emperor's holy aquila and shielding him from the hail of shells and small arms fire that is directed his way and he marches resolutely forward with his massive thrice-blessed eviscerator, ready to rend both tank and man to pieces as his holy duty.

ChaosTicket
09-01-2011, 21:46
Understand that to be a saint to need to perform a number of miracles and be dead. That carries over to 40k, so a Living Saint is like an angel-incarnate, so having more than one is like saying "Angels are everywhere".

It would also mean that Celestine isnt that important as there are lots of living saints, especially since Ordo Hereticus, and the Lord inquisitor special Character from the Hereticus codex search out "false saints". Inquisitor Karazov killed the false saint he investigated.

Yunaris
09-01-2011, 22:59
get this image in your head. Imperial Guardsmen taken off the front line because of severe injuries to medical facilities then Ordo Hospitaller sisters conformting them like WW2 nurses and some female doctors.

that's the Ordo Hospitaller in a nutshell, Missions Nurses helping people for goodwill.. You can at present represent them using Inquisitor minions, but they cant "fix up" people like Painboys or Apothecaries

Actually the latest Dark Heresy book - aka the Inquisitors RPG clearly points out that Hospitallers do take to the field as medics when needed.

For my suggestions:

Definitely more plastic models, the only reason I'm not collecting SoB is the price tag.

Cannoness lets Seraphim keep hit and run.

Some form of funky ranged flamethrower. Much like the stake immolator kinda gun. Perhaps to be particularly funky it could be a ranged armour penetration weapon that does wounds to the occupants.

Repentia need buffed to being worth taking. Perhaps as suggested before some sort of way for them to swap places with a unit currently in close combat.

Some sort of ability that makes repentia more dangerous with each death in the unit.

Living Saints becoming a 0-1 HQ unit that you can grab and customise with upgrades kinda like a Hive Tyrant. A few different weapon choices, a few auras or similiar with a plastic kit as a selling point.

Closed top or weapon choice variations with the repentia engine with a plastic kit as a selling point.

More fire.

Keep the asethetic with the sisters. No more terrible redo's like the demonettes.

ChaosTicket
09-01-2011, 23:02
Yes just ignore the whole living saints are unique thing entirely and go right to having 1 in every army

No-One
09-01-2011, 23:08
they aren't technically unique, one of a kind things, they're have been a decent amount over the years and many named in the fluff, i dont see why it would be a problem with having them as an option, maybe something like taking 1 HQ and 1 Elites choice to be able to field one, though i agree with you on the 0-1 idea being rubbish, that'd make things too dirty for my tastes

ChaosTicket
09-01-2011, 23:13
Its not that but rather the fact that Celestine is well awesome. Powerful, inspiring, etc. Its not like each year a new Living Saint comes out. Its rare if one appears every 1000 years. Even then there are "people possessed by the Will of the Emperor" Like Sebastian Thor.

Oh and I FREAKING HATE 0-1 anything as that mean that there is only 1 in the universe.

Logan_uc
09-01-2011, 23:20
chaosticket is right, you could make a living saint special character, without naming them and give names to the various ones that came through the ages but customising them is a bit too much.

ChaosTicket
09-01-2011, 23:24
They should have some sort of rules to make your own special characters with custom gear through the codexes like marines having lightning claws with attached storm bolters or sSisters with some kind of Power-Censer that burns witches.

The bring back and remove customisable character rules each codex.

Yunaris
09-01-2011, 23:36
Look at it this way - It makes more sense just making up your own one rather than all of us fielding the -same- named Living Saint.

The Imperium is huge. Hundreds of different sectors are named after Living Saints who've appeared at one time or another. Considering your SoB army could be from any side of the galaxy it seems rather absurd to not offer the choice. Frankly, the idea that it is any different than being able to make up your own Chapter + Captain for SM's is silly.

ChaosTicket
09-01-2011, 23:56
Its the fact you want LIVING SAINTs. The whole point of a saint is that they performed miracles, then died, and often are declared saints decades later, possibly even centuries in the Imperium. Deads saints in the Imperium would be in the hundreds, even thousands, but LIVING Ones are totally unique and rare occurance that only come once every thousand years or so.

and like I already said Ordo Hereticus hunts down any false saints and then executes them like witches.

alextroy
10-01-2011, 00:01
My Witch Hunters/Sisters of Battle Wishlist:

General:
Update Acts of Faith Rule to 5th Edition design standards. None of this Faith Points go up, Faith Points go down stuff. The guys who designed IG Orders and DE Power from Pain should be able to come up with something good for Faith. That, and some could be easily incorporated into stand rules for Adepta Sororitas units. Example, drop Light of the Emporer and give all Adepta Sororitas models Faithful (A unit with a Faithful model in it can Regroup even if below half strength).

Standard Sisters Wargear: Bolter, Bolt Pistol, Frag & Krak Grenades, Power Armor. That makes the wargear match the current metal models.

Sisters Units can have Rhino, Immolator, or Repressor as Dedicated Transports.

Sister Superiors use the Veteran Superiors stats with cost built into unit cost.

Upgrade Vehicles and Weapons to match those from Codex: Space Marines, Codex: Blood Angels, and Codex: Imperial Guard as appropriate.

HQ Units:
Either a build your own Living Saint Entry, or more Unique Living Saint like Saint Celestine.

Cannoness: Upgrade the standard wargear to include Rosarius. It's a Badge of Faith that every Cannoness should have. Give them Hit and Run if they have a Jump Pack.

Inquistor Lord: Better Psychic Powers and less confusing Henchmen rules please. Valkyrie added to Dedicated Transport List.

Priest: Please port over the entry from Codex: Imperial Guard.

Elites:
Inquisitor: Same as the Inquisitor Lord.

Arco-Flagellants: Drop the Priest Unlock and Dangerous to Know. Implant Injectors changes to: Fleet & Feel No Pain. Attacks are always 1d6.

Celestian Squad: Make them worthy of the Elite Squad and worth taking over a scoring Battle Sister Squad. I'd say the improved Stat line with better access to Acts of Faith then other Sisters Units.

Sisters Repentia: I just don't know how I would fix this unit.

Assassins: I like the rumors I'm hearing from Daemon Hunter/Grey Knights for Offico Assassins. Death Cult Assassins as units, not individual model units.

Troops:
Battle Sisters Squad: Minimum size of 5 (including the Sister Superior) to allow a base squad to cost less then 124 points (current cost of 10 sisters including VSS). Add Multi-Melta to Heavy Weapon options.

Inquisitorial Storm Troopers: These guys should have rules somewhere between those of IG Storm Troopers and IG Veterans. Could include options for making real Adeptus Arbites units too. Valkyrie added to Dedicated Transport List.

Planetary Defense Forces: Port over the rules for IG Infantry Platoon, without the Unique Characters and Commisars. This handles Inducted Imperial Guard and give the Codex some Long Range Options without forcing Sisters to carry Missile Launchers and Lascannons. With slight adjustments, could also be used to make a Zealot or Fraternus Militia Unit.

Fast Attack:
Seraphim Squad: Not much really, although Furious Charge would be cool ;)

Dominion Squad: Standard gun is Storm Bolter instead of Bolter. My then exchange for Flamer or Meltagun. Squad has Infiltrate and no required vehicle. We now have a squad that can engage from an unusual direction (Infiltrate or outflank), move, shoot, and assault. Now this feels like a Fast Attack unit.

Need more Fast Attack Options, and I don't mean any of the old Inducted Unit Options.

Heavy Support:
Retributor Squad: Heavy Flamers as a option. Give the Heavy Bolters Blessed Ammo.

Immolator: Dedicated Transport and no longer Heavy Support Choice. Immolator should be able to swap twin Heavy Flamers (that can fire at Cruising Speed) for either Multi-Meltas, or Blessed Ammo Heavy Bolters for free. Now it always burns things up!

Exorcist: A Large Blast or Barrage firing option would be cool. It could even be a different weapon option.

Penitent Engines: Not much to say. Update the rules and cost and we are good.

Orbital Strike: Remove from Heavy Support and include as a one-shot option for Inquistors much like the Orbital Strike for SM Chapter Masters.

Models:
Give me a plastic Battle Sisters Box with the bits required to make Battle Sisters, Celestins, Dominions, and Retributors.

Give me a plastic Seraphim Box with all the options and bits to make a Cannoness or Living Saint when combined with the Battle Sisters Box.

Give me a plastic Storm Trooper Box that can make IST, IG ST, and Arbites.

Give me a plastic Repressor Kit.

Give me a plastic Exorcist Kit. Actually, I don't care since I have two Forge World Exorcist instead of the Top Heavy metal monstrosity.

Vet.Sister
10-01-2011, 00:06
If the Exorcist absolutely HAS to have a random amount of shots... why not (1D3)+2 ?
Plus I'd pay more points if the Exorcist became Armor 13 all around and had a pintle mounted storm-bolter added to its armaments.

You could leave Penitent Engines mostly the same and tweak them with their compulsory movement to a choice between a) pursuing the nearest enemy unit OR b) moving towards/attacking the nearest 'enemy' objective. [Note: for the purposes of this comment, an "enemy objective" is one that is held OR contested by one or more enemy units, or perhaps located in the enemy deployment zone.] Give them 3D6 charge move (forced to pick 2 highest dice) and put them in the fast FOC slot.

ChaosTicket
10-01-2011, 00:27
Represssors are Rhino variants equipped for great cargo capacity designed for riot and prison transport. Ingame they are basically just transport rhinos with a second storm bolter.

If dominion squads get storm bolters as standard then they become elites and replace celestians. That kills their purpose as a mobile special firepower unit (like one with a rhino and 4 meltaguns).

IF Exorcists should be separate between low armor, low power artillery barrage vehicles and high power tanks like the current Exorcist.

KEEP the priests locked units. That represents that the ecclessiarchy is supporting them with both priests and ecclessiarchy tools such as penitent engines and Arco-flaggelants.
--------------------
I see people trying to make LIVING saints as common as Space marine commanders. I also see them wanting options to make units much more expensive similar to Sternguard. The first I say hell no, the second, as an option sure, I just dont want to see 20-25 base cost Celestials.

Blessed ammo for heavy bolters, sure, maybe even make that an OPTION for celestial's bolters along with the OPTION of Sarisas. Allow heavy Bolters(with blessed ammo) and Multi melta on regular Sister squads and heavy flamers for Retributors.

Missile launchers with melta missiles is something I want to see, and i dont see anything wrong with plasma weapons burning everything like melta and flame weapons.

Hrw-Amen
10-01-2011, 01:17
Novices, maybe armed with autoguns or something, not yet in full power armour. Perhaps in a similar manner to SM scouts? I guess that would lead to the whole female SM issue but could be an option. Or maybe Sister Rangers or something with sniper rifles?

Carriage mounted heavy weapons teams like the old IG ones, maybe with twin linked heavy flamers or bolters? Like a Tarantula but manned by sisters rather than autonmated.

Yes a Sisters dreadnought, not that awful penetant engine thing, something properly Sisters of Battle. Armed with heavy flamers, meltas, plasma cannons.

I'd like to see a mounted squad, maybe not on bikes, perhaps on some kind of beast/horse?

ChaosTicket
10-01-2011, 01:36
Ok having Junior sisters using autoguns seems more humorous than anything. I dont think Sisters would find skulking through the bushes as favorable, not to mention all the icons they wear.

And no deadnought, those are rare enough for Space marines and reserved for their almost-dead heroes. Next thing you, youll be wanting Terminator armor and battle barges.

Mounting wouldnt be a bad idea but on what? Your few choices are horses and female grox'.

daboarder
10-01-2011, 02:08
Represssors are Rhino variants equipped for great cargo capacity designed for riot and prison transport. Ingame they are basically just transport rhinos with a second storm bolter.


wow you haven't played against a SOB force in repressors have you, the differences like fire points and a heavy flamer seem small on paper but they're fundamentally different on the table.

Inquisitor Gabriel Ashe
10-01-2011, 02:16
Next thing you, youll be wanting Terminator armor

No, no, of course not. We'll call it Terminatrix armor. *ducks*

ChaosTicket
10-01-2011, 02:35
So it is, I remember the Repressor back from 2nd edition. Had to look through Imperial armor for it. It's a great transport, but not overpowered.

The Immolator is a dedicated option for all the units besides the basic Battle Sisters Squad.

No-One
10-01-2011, 03:04
another option i think would be nice to see would the Sisters of Silence, though IIRC they stick to hunting psykers and riding around with the Black Ships, but i might be mistaken, someone correct me if i'm wrong

ChaosTicket
10-01-2011, 03:09
They would be more connected to the Inquisition than the Ecclessiarchy. They would make in interesting Inquisitor unlock unit in an inquisitor army.

Power or carapace armor, bolt pistol and chainsword. But then how would they have a lower form of the Pariahs rules for the Culexus? On the Culexus its pretty nasty, its a double edged sword, while the SoS can also act as psychic shields for officers.

snaketrap
10-01-2011, 05:20
hopefully we wont get any of those completely silly sisters with giant chainswords wearing 2 scraps of cloth having a 4+ save. Just seems like "fap" material for 13 year olds instead of an army that you had to take seriously. After seeing what they did with the DE and their Wyches, there is no reason they can't do it for this army.

So you prefer your women in skin tight leather bondage gear with chains and knives and a 4+ save instead? If one seems like fap material for a 13 year old, I fail to see how the other isn't.

ChaosTicket
10-01-2011, 05:38
The death Cultists are just a carry over from Inquisitor, as Eisenhorn has two mute but lithe assassin sisters wearing leather bodygloves.

they should be in units of like 5-10 though.

Inquisitor Gabriel Ashe
10-01-2011, 05:55
Inquisitor Ligeia in the Grey Knights novel has them too.

alextroy
10-01-2011, 05:58
And there was a Death Cult Assassin in Emperor's Mercy working for the Imperial Navy Admiral. Don't diss the Death Cult Assassin just because she is in a catsuit.

Axel
10-01-2011, 07:40
- Faithful units should be stubborn, instead of everybody toting the BoSL
- Repentias should become something alone the line of Deathkult assasins - or perhaps smaller Ervesors... in any case they need a major overhaul
- I like acts of faith - its like fencing, rather then using a hammer. If applied correctly it can bite deep, but once blunted... Some carefull streamlining could help, though.
- if the Multimelta girls could move and fire, they would actually see some usage
- Canoness should be 0-1, instead of always using her and spuring the prioress.

AlexHolker
10-01-2011, 08:02
- Canoness should be 0-1, instead of always using her and spuring the prioress.
They should either make her worth her price, or just remove the option completely. Removing options people actually want to use is a terrible way to do it.

SabrX
10-01-2011, 08:09
-Canoness stats should be on par with HQ level (WS and I 5) with default equipment
-Special Characters
-Sarissa count as additional close combat weapon, can be used with faith, and standard on all Sisters
-Frag and Krak Grenades standard on Sisters
-Reduce Seraphim points cost
-Sister Rhino points in line with everyone else
-Repressors with front AV12 and side AV11
-Skimmer transport option for Sisters such as Valkyrie or Vendetta, but with flame based weapons
-Stubborn on all units
-Faith can be used anytime
-New faith powers allowing FNP and Furious Charge
-Inferno Cannon
-Possible poison AP2 templates?
-Make Repentias useful and give them a transport
-Allow Dominions to take as many special weapons as there are members.
-Make Retributors more useful
-Make Divine Guidance rending
-Blessed Ammo standard
-Priest similar to IG Priest
-Shield of Faith grants 4+ against any psychic rather than 5+

AlexHolker
10-01-2011, 11:55
-Special Characters
Female Special Characters, both Sororitas and allied factions.


-Sarissa count as additional close combat weapon, can be used with faith, and standard on all Sisters
-Frag and Krak Grenades standard on Sisters
Sisters of Battle are not Space Wolves. Giving them all CCWs and assault grenades is just silly.


-Repressors with front AV12 and side AV11
Definitely. To convey its purpose as a converted riot control vehicle, it should have better front (for Tank Shock) or rear (for protection against melee) armour, and the riot plow justifies the extra front armour.


-Skimmer transport option for Sisters such as Valkyrie or Vendetta, but with flame based weapons
I don't like this suggestion as these craft are traditionally Navy craft, which the Ecclesiarchy is not allowed to have.


-Make Repentias useful and give them a transport
Personally, I'd like to see something like a Bronco (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronco_All_Terrain_Tracked_Carrier) variant Rhino, that could transport large Battle Sister squads, Repentia or Seraphim. The Sisters don't have assault landers like the Thunderhawk, so they need some form of strategic mobility just to get to the battlefield.

ChaosTicket
10-01-2011, 17:08
I think the fact that Repressors have heavy flamers and fire points all over already shows how good they are in riot control. Having Armor 12 means they would need to be limited like only to Celestians, as they only cost 50 points.

Rhinos, including the Sororitas ones ARE 35 points, read Imperial Armor Update.

The ban of Valkyries I agree with.

Sisters having grenades, sure, but Sarisas shouldnt be so common, the sisters dont charge everything using bayonets.

Seraphim cheaper, yes.

they do need special characters, but no LIVING Saints. Inquisitors, Sisters, even Priests and maybe some Frateris Militia characters.

Stubborn and Blessed ammo for everyone, not a chance in hell. But giving them as Faith powers, sure. Feel no pain and Furious Charge, ok as faith too. faith should be changed, mainly like fixing it to certain units that can or cant use certain powers, but the overall powers became better.

I dont know why people want to turn Dominions into Fire Dragons or Sternguard.

Inquisitor Gabriel Ashe
10-01-2011, 18:37
Not everyone will allow the IA rules, so Rhinos are 50 points for Sisters and Repressors are not an option yet.

Charistoph
10-01-2011, 20:09
Not everyone will allow the IA rules, so Rhinos are 50 points for Sisters and Repressors are not an option yet.

Considering how much has been converted from IA to codex, with only minor changes, I don't think that's something to worry over.

--
One thing that could work is an Arbites Patrol vehicle. Basically, a Fast Vehicle along the same premise as the War Trukk, but with Imperium tools.

Inquisitor Gabriel Ashe
10-01-2011, 20:19
Considering how much has been converted from IA to codex, with only minor changes, I don't think that's something to worry over.

--
One thing that could work is an Arbites Patrol vehicle. Basically, a Fast Vehicle along the same premise as the War Trukk, but with Imperium tools.
I'm not worried. I'm just pointing out that not everyone has the luxury of running 35 point Rhinos with their Sisters yet. :)

Charistoph
10-01-2011, 21:22
I'm not worried. I'm just pointing out that not everyone has the luxury of running 35 point Rhinos with their Sisters yet. :)

The only way to that now is buy them as part of a SM army and then park the Allied Sisters in them.

But since this is a Wishing Thread, they can wish for cheap Rhinos and gothic paddy wagons all they want.

Still Standing
10-01-2011, 21:28
The only way to that now is buy them as part of a SM army and then park the Allied Sisters in them.

But since this is a Wishing Thread, they can wish for cheap Rhinos and gothic paddy wagons all they want.

No, they are 35 points in the IA2 update.

Navar
10-01-2011, 21:52
Battle Sisters having to take assault grenades is dumb. It would be MUCH better for them to just be 1 point cheaper and have the option for idiots to take (or those than need to spend 5 points.)

I agree that an option for defensive grenades is a really good idea though.

Inquisitor Gabriel Ashe
10-01-2011, 22:40
The only way to that now is buy them as part of a SM army and then park the Allied Sisters in them.

But since this is a Wishing Thread, they can wish for cheap Rhinos and gothic paddy wagons all they want.
Absolutely. I would love for the IA update to be official. And it's going to happen. The Repressor may end up modified, but the SM-clone Rhinos are practically guaranteed.

Gatsby
10-01-2011, 23:02
the only girls who need assault grenades are Seraphim.

Fredegar Kadere
10-01-2011, 23:21
I'd like to see the Order Sabine and the Order Pronatus represented. Carapace-level scout/infiltrate Sister(s) to represent the Sabine. No idea how one would represent the Pronatus, though a techpriest-esque Sister seems plausible since the Pronatus are responsible for safeguarding and maintaining relics.. What better holy relic than the mighty Exorcist?

Still Standing
10-01-2011, 23:32
Why do people want to add more and more space marine units to the SOB? So far in this thread I've seen Bikes, Scouts, Techpriests, and grenades everywhere. Sisters don't need these things, and they shouldn't have them! Let them be there own book, not a week Marine one!

Gatsby
10-01-2011, 23:42
Why do people want to add more and more space marine units to the SOB? So far in this thread I've seen Bikes, Scouts, Techpriests, and grenades everywhere. Sisters don't need these things, and they shouldn't have them! Let them be there own book, not a week Marine one!

i agree... although a techpriest would be fine (even ig use them)

Inquisitor Gabriel Ashe
10-01-2011, 23:47
Why do people want to add more and more space marine units to the SOB? So far in this thread I've seen Bikes, Scouts, Techpriests, and grenades everywhere. Sisters don't need these things, and they shouldn't have them! Let them be there own book, not a week Marine one!
To be fair, I only want the bikes. :p

Charistoph
11-01-2011, 00:53
Why do people want to add more and more space marine units to the SOB? So far in this thread I've seen Bikes, Scouts, Techpriests, and grenades everywhere. Sisters don't need these things, and they shouldn't have them! Let them be there own book, not a weak Marine one!

To be fair, the Sororitas are a religious militant order of the Imperium, so there will be a lot of cross over between between IG, Marine, and Sister fighting style and equipment. Combine that with the currently VERY limited unit selection in the codex (outside of Inquisitorial Elites), and there are bound to be cross-overs.

It is difficult to come up with other unit types that can be effectively added to the army that fit the personality of the Sororitas and the equipment list available to the Imperium. Jet Bikes? Out. Jump Infantry (Jet Pack)? I wouldn't hold your breath. Beasts/Cavalry? Well, Repentia and arco-flagellants COULD be converted to this type and make them far more effective.

So that leaves infantry that varies with equipment load outs. Bikes are very common in the Imperium, and it makes sense that the Sisters would use them. Maybe take a page from the Dark Eldar hand book, and have them as light bikes that aren't full AS 3+, but are a smidge faster for it. They could even be Arbites units!

What the Sisters most represent is the theocracy's police. We should see a main focus on the Sororitas, with supporting elements from the Ecclisiarchy for buffs, odd-ball stuff, etc, and from the Arbites, who provide numbers and light vehicle options on the side. If we look at it from that perspective, we have a LOT of room to play with, and still keep the character of the army.

alextroy
11-01-2011, 01:05
Why do people want to add more and more space marine units to the SOB? So far in this thread I've seen Bikes, Scouts, Techpriests, and grenades everywhere. Sisters don't need these things, and they shouldn't have them! Let them be there own book, not a week Marine one!

Bike, Scouts, and Techpriest, I see no need for.

As for Grenades and Bolt Pistols, have you ever looked at a Sisters Model? They have Frag Grenades and/or Pistols on every single one of the current Metal Models. Given 5th Edition design philosophy, that means they should at least have Frag Grenades and some sort of Pistol as standard wargear.

ChaosTicket
11-01-2011, 05:30
I also dont see a need. I do want the Sisters to have more quipment but at the same time I also understand that the lack the resources of the Imperial navy, Astartes, Techmarines, etc. in the same Degree as various Guard regiments can get.

Arco Flaggellants for example are uniquely controlled by the Ecclessiarchy and should be made somewhat better as while strong and tough, the actual results are mixed from high to low, their numbers are small(they dont even have 2 wounds), their speed is also inconsistant.

As for adding the Non-militant orders to the battlefield in the same way as Astartes or imperial Guard battlefield specialists I say no, as they are non-militant. Havings combat medics among militant orders is perfectly acceptable but having Techpriests sisters is beyond a stretch and also makes Enginseers and Techpriests seem that much less important if every military branch is carrying it's own cadre of techpriests without actually allowing them to be Admechs(besides the engineseers).
---------------------------------------------------------------

Bikes for sisters are another example that is just an attempt to rip off the Astartes. Just because they can something doesnt mean the sisters have to cry to a cardinal and say "Father, I wanna giant bike with explosive machine guns on it". The fact that the sisters have tech like jump packs, bolters, and rhinos is a stretch on the rules originally set up for them. Rhinos arent exceptionally rare, and the sisters have some unique kinds that few others if any use, such as the Exorcists.

the usual way the sisters get some sort of tech is that is sanctioned by the Ecclessiarchy to support the "ceremonial guard" Sororitas such as the Repressors and Rhinos or also doubles as something as such as the War Shrine/Missile Tank Exorcists
----------------------------------------------
The Adeptus Arbites do have assorted tech similar to the Sororitas such as Repressors, Rhinos, and bolters, but operate as a heavily armed Police force for Imperial Interests and order on a planet, compared to the Sisters who are more directed towards Ecclessiarchy interests.

I do like the Arbites but at the same time they wont have a battle tank or artillery pieces. Their presence should return as in various settings such as imperial cities an such have Arbite Precincts where the arbite operate from. They would be out of place on an ork world, but on an imperial one under attack by enemies such as Armageddon or Cadia they are not out of place.

Gatsby
11-01-2011, 05:44
As for adding the Non-militant orders to the battlefield in the same way as Astartes or imperial Guard battlefield specialists I say no, as they are non-militant. Havings combat medics among militant orders is perfectly acceptable but having Techpriests sisters is beyond a stretch and also makes Enginseers and Techpriests seem that much less important if every military branch is carrying it's own cadre of techpriests without actually allowing them to be Admechs(besides the engineseers).


for the most part i agree about not making them female marines. but techpriests are needed by EVERYONE who uses admech tech, this includes rhinos, something that is widely used by the sororitas. And who says that the techpriests cant just be, i don't know, lent from the admech? Even IF they trained a few sororitas to tend to the motor pool, that hardly seems outrageous.

AlexHolker
11-01-2011, 05:50
Rather than having Techpriests accompany the Ecclesiarchy forces in battle, how about the SoB vehicles get the Rhino's Repair rule, to let them get back to the rest of the Imperial forces for the rest of the repairs?

Deus Mechanicus
11-01-2011, 05:56
Terminator Sisters

ChaosTicket
11-01-2011, 06:11
For one the Adeptus Mechanicus are in insular order, for are otherwise described in the simplest terms anti-social, agoraphobic(fear of crowds or public places) while at the same time being technophiles. They have their own battleforces that would otherwise have large contingents of enginseers(the Skitarii) and the Admechs do build the Sororitas equipment.

the fact that the Imperial Guard have Enginseers is already somewhat stretching it, as a military force such as full Imperial Guard army would have Enginseers repairing recovered vehicles, it doesnt mean they would enter the battlefield that often.

It's also a matter of fluff, as the Ecclessiarchy isnt on good terms with the Adeptus Mechanicus because of their "deviant" worship of the Omnissiah. It would be like power armored dogs versus cyborg cats.
------------------------------------
The Rhino repair rule is another thing in Imperial armor, which should carry over(along with the point decrease) as soon at the get the next codex(or you could just not play with someone who refuses to fight against the incredibly overpowered rhinos with their massive 6+ chance to repair immobilised or -15 cost).
----------------------------------------------
And the next person to seriously suggest terminator armor for the Sororitas is going the right way for a smack up the side of their head.

AlexHolker
11-01-2011, 06:22
The Rhino repair rule is another thing in Imperial armor, which should carry over(along with the point decrease) as soon at the get the next codex(or you could just not play with someone who refuses to fight against the incredibly overpowered rhinos with their massive 6+ chance to repair immobilised or -15 cost).
I was suggesting the Repair rule for all SoB vehicles, not just the base Rhino.

ChaosTicket
11-01-2011, 06:27
Eh, if it did it would extend to all rhino variants not just the Sororitas ones.

Chem-Dog
11-01-2011, 06:45
Inferno pistols are focused energy compared to flamethrowers that, are well flamethrowers. They follow oxygen trails and armor like astartes power armor is both heat resistant and has auxillary oxygen, so can become completly enclosed, so flamethrowers can barely affect them.

It's worth pointing out, at least, that clasically the Imperium uses oxy-phosphor gel which needs no ignition source as it combusts on contact with the air, it adheres to it's targets and is incredibly difficult to extinquish as it can burn even underwater.
That's a little more hardcore than your every-day run-of-the-mill flamethrower ;)


Understand that to be a saint to need to perform a number of miracles and be dead.

At least half of those prerequisites are redundant in a Living Saint.



and like I already said Ordo Hereticus hunts down any false saints and then executes them like witches.

This is a bizarre notion, the Ecclesiarchy and Ordo Hereticus are the two bodies within the Imperium that between them have the authority to declare an individual a "Living Saint". How are you getting false ones?


Represssors are Rhino variants equipped for great cargo capacity designed for riot and prison transport.

Problem is, I never saw the Adeptus Sorroritas as responsible for controlling riots OR transporting prisoners.




As for what I'd want....

More ecclesiarchy please. Cardinals, Confessors and Preachers. Bring back the Missionarius Galaxia. Give us some Frateris Militia too.
For Sisters, the stuff most people are mentioning seems pretty much in the area of what I'd like to see.

Now for something new....
Sisters need a main battle tank. Landraiders won't cut it. Leman Russes aren't right. What do the sisters need to prosecute their never ending holy war?
That's right, a huge Church-Tank, something that trully blurs the lines between place of worship and kick-ass war machine, war shrine, battle altar, call it what you want, a gun toting, morale boosting pile of blessed death is necessary in an all new SoB army.

AlexHolker
11-01-2011, 07:01
Problem is, I never saw the Adeptus Sorroritas as responsible for controlling riots OR transporting prisoners.
Read the fluff. The Repressor is a modified Arbite riot control vehicle. Never used for transporting prisoners, though, unless as an escort vehicle.


Now for something new....
Sisters need a main battle tank.
Remember the Decree Passive. I am of the opinion that the Sisters should get zero combat aerospace craft and zero Ordinance, and that includes no MBTs. My own take on the big Sisters tank is the counts-as Stormlord, The Shrine of the Emperor's Wrath. As it's primarily a transport and relic and not armed with fortification-busting ordinance, it's easier to justify.

ChaosTicket
11-01-2011, 07:05
Repressors are mainly used by the Adeptus Arbites. Them being used by Sororitas is something newer(and I dont think the Arbites would give them heavy flamers). Rhinos and Repressors can both be used by Arbites as "paddy-wagons".

The Ecclessiarchy is responsible for officially recognising someone as Saint and the Ordo Hereticus is in charge of checking these possible saints. Obvious problems would arise if the Ordo or even just one Inquisitor found the possible saint to be "unbecoming" of a saint and disposed of them, while the Ecclisarchy was possibly intending to recognise the person.

The main problem both in the real world and 40k is that the process of recognising a saint is a long and gruelling process, made more so by the size of the Imperium, often things happen decades, even centuries after something happens. A Saint would be dead by the time they are recognised.

Its extremely rare that a person qualifies to be a saint, is living, and has passed both Ecclessiarcal and Ordo Hereticus tests, which makes Saint Celestine even more wondrous(an inquisitor could have tested her then put a bolt in her head if he/she chose so).
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I agree with a shrine-tank, so long as it's not just a touched up Shadowsword or Baneblade, but rather something closer to a Malcador, but only for the Sororitas.

And yes the ecclessiarchy should have more presence in the overall codex. But its a question of how much. the Sororitas are both a separate organisation and the Ecclessiarchy is Their Patron, but besides devote militia and the Sororitas then arent allowed any more military power.

Gatsby
11-01-2011, 07:33
Read the fluff. The Repressor is a modified Arbite riot control vehicle. Never used for transporting prisoners, though, unless as an escort vehicle.

Remember the Decree Passive. I am of the opinion that the Sisters should get zero combat aerospace craft and zero Ordinance, and that includes no MBTs. My own take on the big Sisters tank is the counts-as Stormlord, The Shrine of the Emperor's Wrath. As it's primarily a transport and relic and not armed with fortification-busting ordinance, it's easier to justify.

SoB should get lightnings as their flyer (not like it needs to be flown by a sister, but an inducted IG pilot.) As for a tank, they just need to make the exorcist a little more durable, maybe can ALWAYS fire its main gun (unless its destroyed or something of course) kinda like a power of the machine spirit taken to the extreme.

The seraphim need to be given something to make up for the nerf to pistols, maybe special machine pistols (12" assault 2 twin linked)

Jump pack HQ's need to have hit n' run so they can join Seraphim (as it is i always take Saint Celestine JUST for that reason)

Battle sister squads need to be 5 minimum 20 max

Faith needs to be streamlined (not removed nor nerfed) just.... smoothed out. (honestly I like it as is, I think they could add a few new acts, I'm just afraid they're going to take some of the better ones away or, god forbid, remove it as a whole)

a customizable living saint, i can SEE it being cool, but there's something i just don't like about it.

Inquisitors, well we can wait and see what the Grey Knight codex does to them (i always used my sisters to represent the retinue in my Grey Knights list anyway)

I'd LOVE to see the Celestian squad ACTUALLY be worth taking over a basic squad, same goes for a dominion squad. maybe let the Celestian squad carry blessed weapons (or something lesser like +1str power weapons) and pistols allowing 2 to upgrade the pistols for melta/plasma/flamer guns/pistols. that would make them semi assaulty/counter assaulty and USEFUL. The dominion squads could get special ammunition like melta rounds or something to let them move unload open fire and once again, do something that makes them worth taking.

strangely, the Witch hunters codex is ACTUALLY rather competitive as it stands now despite its age. My suicide Cannoness has failed in her duty a number of times, rather than die and give me more faith points, she just wipes out a full units of thunderwolf cavalry.

ChaosTicket
11-01-2011, 08:00
If you mean the Lightnings from Dawn of War soulstorm, that was a "creative" idea to give them aerial weapons like the other races/factions.

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I think Celestians are fine are elites that arent "uber" with Powers weapons like Incubi and Honor Guards that have become so common in 5th. For one I dont think it's fluffy to have the human SIsters start carrying around power halberds when naturally the sisters lack the strength and skill to be using weapons that Astartes have hard enough time getting among their chapters. It doesnt make it totally impossible, but it seems like another "astartes have it so I want it" thing.

There are some interesting things suggested for them such as custom bolt shells like sternguard is another Envy thing. But having Celestians with Blessed Bolt rounds is a good idea, and/or some form of Stubborn. Sarisas or Furious Assault are big things to support their "Preferred Enemy" power, without being overpowered.

But one thing I hope doesnt happen is that someone things jacking up their gear to Honor Guard status is a good idea, which is somewhat unreasonable, and would kill the fact that you can have alot more of them then Astartes Elite units.

I dont really know why people are thinking of using celestians instead of battle Sisters. Currently the celestians are more like 3.5 edition Space marines Veterans not super elite Honor Guard carrying power halberds.

snaketrap
11-01-2011, 08:29
It is difficult to come up with other unit types that can be effectively added to the army that fit the personality of the Sororitas and the equipment list available to the Imperium. Jet Bikes? Out. Jump Infantry (Jet Pack)? I wouldn't hold your breath. Beasts/Cavalry? Well, Repentia and arco-flagellants COULD be converted to this type and make them far more effective.



Difficult for you. Presumably not difficult for professional game designers. I've never understood why so many Sisters/Witch Hunters players were so content with the hand-me-down nature of the Sisters units, which all seem like leftovers from the Marines and Guard books. Worse,it seems like many Sisters/Witch Hunters players can't think of anything better to ask for then what the other Imperial forces already have. As previously noted, the last thing the Sisters need, is Storm troopers, Marine Bikes, Land Raiders, Terminators, Valks or any other pre-established Imperial kit. This just shows a sick lack of imagination.

What the army does need is real, honest to god unique models and units that aren't simply rehashed Marine/Guard kits. Just like the Dark Eldar didn't need spiky Falcons and Wraithlords, the Sisters don't need blinged out Russes with flamer turrets. We can do way, way better then that. If you (and the "you " here doesn't apply to anyone specifically) can't think of anything unique or interesting to do with the Sisters army, rule or model wise, taht's a severe lack of imagination on your part, not an inherent fault of the army concept,and defiantly not proof that that the army needs to stick to some kind of imperial template and be constructed entirely of left overs and spare parts.

Anyway, not meant as an attack on anyone. Rather, I think we should all be sitting our sights higher.

My great hope comes from a quote from Jes (I think. It may have been another sculptor) a year or so ago that the Sisters vehicles were being completely redesigned, that they would be uniquely recognizable and give the army a unique look. AT the time a lot of people took that to mean Repressors, and I suppose that could be the case, but it would be awesome if it meant that the designers were using the basic rhino chassis as a base for something really unique and interesting.

I want models and units that make Sisters stand out from other Imperial forces as much as Guard stand out from Marines, Dark Eldar stand out from Craftworld Eldar or Tau stand out from... well, from anything, really. I want the army to be unique, recognizable, and finally, after all this time, not simply an afterthought constructed from spare parts.

Gatsby
11-01-2011, 08:50
If you mean the Lightnings from Dawn of War soulstorm, that was a "creative" idea to give them aerial weapons like the other races/factions.

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I think Celestians are fine are elites that arent "uber" with Powers weapons like Incubi and Honor Guards that have become so common in 5th. For one I dont think it's fluffy to have the human SIsters start carrying around power halberds when naturally the sisters lack the strength and skill to be using weapons that Astartes have hard enough time getting among their chapters. It doesnt make it totally impossible, but it seems like another "astartes have it so I want it" thing.

There are some interesting things suggested for them such as custom bolt shells like sternguard is another Envy thing. But having Celestians with Blessed Bolt rounds is a good idea, and/or some form of Stubborn. Sarisas or Furious Assault are big things to support their "Preferred Enemy" power, without being overpowered.

But one thing I hope doesnt happen is that someone things jacking up their gear to Honor Guard status is a good idea, which is somewhat unreasonable, and would kill the fact that you can have alot more of them then Astartes Elite units.

I dont really know why people are thinking of using celestians instead of battle Sisters. Currently the celestians are more like 3.5 edition Space marines Veterans not super elite Honor Guard carrying power halberds.

I agree that the Sororita should not just be female marines, but if we bar giving them what marines have, then we actually CANT give them anything. Unless the only thing you want are

HQ: cannonness with non marine equipment, so an auto pistol and a stick
Elite: Celestians with non marine special weapons... so they get heavy stubbers and slingshots
Troop: Battle Sister Squads with auto guns and leather armor (power armor is for marines)... although leather armor MAY look good...;)
Fast: foot slogging seraphim (jump packs are for marines) and dominions with more stubbers and ASSAULT slingshots (non marine equipment)

i think that explains what i mean, there is ALWAYS going to be a cross of equipment and unit types, what makes sisters different is playstyle and Acts of faith (when to use them and when not to.) They are also unique because whereas marines are more user friendly and forgiving, sisters, while having a 3+save, are still softer and more unforgiving.

To deny any reasonable change based on "because marines have it" or as you put it "envy" means that they cant get ANY upgrades and changes. I'm not asking for terminator armor, thunderhammer/SS, land speeders, assault cannons, techmarines with cannon, land raiders, predators.... and i can go on. Im asking for reasonable item and unit selections that allow for adaptable balanced play.

Making Celestians more viable by making them more adaptable SHOULD NOT be based on, "well marines are adaptable so SoB shouldn't be, or they'll be to similar." This same sentiment goes for Dominion squads, seraphim and sisters of battle as a whole.

ChaosTicket
11-01-2011, 09:22
One of the key things is that the Sororitas by law cant have things like aircraft, super heavy tanks, etc.

Eldar and Dark Eldar use different tech but the Sororitas tech is still Imperial so will be more or less variations of the same thing.

You want new gear then you need some excuse for the Sororitas have them. The Sororitas themselves barely circumvent the law because they are the Chamber Militant of the Ordo Hereticus and ceremonial guard of the Ecclessairchy.
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Denying the Sororitas astartes gear is actually quite reasonable, simply because while the Sororitas have Rhinos, Power armor, and Boltguns, that doesnt mean they have 10000 years of development. Land Raiders, Dreadnoughts, ancient power weapons, etc. aren't exactly common for the millions of astartes and the Adeptus Sororitas have alot less history, superhuman ability, and most of all balanced equipment compared to the Astartes.

The Sororitas arent even ment to be balanced. If anything you could go around and say "they get no vehicles at all" and it would be fine, the fact they have Rhinos, Exorcists and Repressors is huge, and people take that for granted.

The Sororitas themselves are also huge as they are the closest human force to Astartes. Compared to the Imperial Guard soldiers with flak armor and lasguns they are so much better.

Really it's just stop trying to copy Astartes so much. they should have their own ceremonial war machines like Penitent engines are dreadnought wannabees, and Seraphim are emulators to Assault Marines.

Make some NEW things, but they are already stretching it with things like the Exorcist Missile Tank. "If anyone asks it's just a shrine on top of rhino" is their excuse.
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In second edition the whole codex was really just the place where all the rules for the Sororitas, Inquisitors, arbites, Ecclessairchy and Grey Knights were stored.

snaketrap
11-01-2011, 09:56
One of the key things is that the Sororitas by law cant have things like aircraft, super heavy tanks, etc.



I don't think this is actually true. The church is banned from having "Men under arms", and the clever way around that was to arm female warriors. I've never read anything that suggested that the Sisters weren't armed, outfitted and equipped with the best gear that the church could afford. I can't see why they would be restricted from having battle tanks, air support, artillery and other weapons of war. Even if we were to claim that the Sisters were merely a defensive organization, they'd certainly need these things to properly defend their holdings.

Can you provide a quote or link that explains that the Sisters can't have aircraft, heavy tanks and similar weapons of war. Otherwise I suspect this to be a misunderstanding centered around the fluff restricting the church from having a standing army (which again, is circumvented by the Sisters themselves). In other words, I think it's bunk. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Gatsby
11-01-2011, 10:01
However there is only so much you can do, this game is rather limited in scope, i could point out the similarities between the storm bolter and the Avenger Shriuken catapult, short of the range they are identical gameplay wise, yet fluff wise they are totally different. Same goes for the statline of a Necron Warrior and a Marine. A sword that gives +1str and counts as a power weapon is just as unique as a similar item in a different codex, what makes them different is the fluff surrounding it.

Giving a unit (Celestians for example) options to make them more adaptable is hardly asking much. And to shoot down ideas because it is similar to an idea in a different codex would mean that there can be no improvement or change.

As for saying that they aren't allowed vehicles is crazy, I have never seen sentence ONE that says they don't have access to basic equipment, and vehicles ARE basic equipment, Immolators are just a basic offshoot of a rhino just as an exorcist is an offshoot of an Immolator, and even then both of those are concepts for improvement that probably came up within the first hour of being issued.

ChaosTicket
11-01-2011, 10:16
Im not shooting down ideas, but rather saying it needs some source and reason behind it. If they're are cadres of sisters carrying power halberds then you need some strong reason like they are the personal guard of a Cardinal. Their are alot of details for such things, like are they holy relics? Are they wielded only by sisters that have personally slain a witch?

I want the sisters to be more adaptable, but not just grabbing things that astartes have. Simple things like having Missile launchers would be great and simple other things should be new otherwise you just get "female space marines".

Comparing the two sets different standards even like Sternguard are Verterans space marines that have lived hundreds of years and battles equipped with rare ammunition like Kraken rounds for heavy armor piercing against Tyranids Warrios and the like. The rare astartes ammunition are directly created to allow smaller groups of astartes(Like the deathwatch) to fight against various threats without requiring other weapons.

If the Sisters got that then you would just have cheaper Sternguard and circumventing the rarity of such ammunition.

AlexHolker
11-01-2011, 10:20
Can you provide a quote or link that explains that the Sisters can't have aircraft, heavy tanks and similar weapons of war.
The entry for Orbital Bombardment in the previous codex states that the Ecclesiarchy is forbidden war vessels. And really, when the whole point of the Decree Passive is to remove the Ecclesiarchy's ability to engage in warfare against the rest of the Imperium, there needs to be some effect, even if Thor convinced everyone to let the honour guard, the Brides of the Emperor, remain intact.

SabrX
11-01-2011, 10:25
I recall in reading in Redemption Corps Sisters of Battle using Valkyrie transports. To be honest there's so little fluff out there on Sisters that anything short of a Titan can be justified.

snaketrap
11-01-2011, 10:38
The entry for Orbital Bombardment in the previous codex states that the Ecclesiarchy is forbidden war vessels. And really, when the whole point of the Decree Passive is to remove the Ecclesiarchy's ability to engage in warfare against the rest of the Imperium, there needs to be some effect, even if Thor convinced everyone to let the honour guard, the Brides of the Emperor, remain intact.

Forbidden War Vessels, yes. This is why the Sisters don't engage in space combat under their own power and are often attached to other forces or act as planetary stationed defenders. There's a huge difference between war vessels (those giant ships from Battle Fleet Gothic) and tanks, and I find it very, very hard to believe that the Sisters could be a credible armed force, let alone the most elite human armed force in the galaxy, without having a fully fleshed out and functional arsenal.

In any case, the attempt to nullify the Ecclesiarchy's military power was mostly circumvented by the founding of the Adeptus Sororitas. That was the whole point of the Sisters of Battle, to get around the Decree Passive and allow the church to have a military force. Tanks and all.

Gatsby
11-01-2011, 10:38
But I'm not here to write the fluff, I'm just saying what id like to see, and for the record, sternguard are HARDLY a unique army entry, all they are, are a veteran unit. What are the Celestians? oh, a veteran unit (who are OLDER than the sternguard, so should marines lose access to sternguard?) Why should a veteran unit not be able to arm itself with IMPROVED arms? Same goes for Dominion squads, they are a specialized unit, with hardly specialized equipment, that needs to change.

And YES our units are cheaper, but they aren't as durable. Just for the record, when you work with the inquisition, they have ways (stealing/redirecting the shipments going to marine chapters seems an easy way) of getting you that special ammunition that will help them accomplish their mission.

edit:

The entry for Orbital Bombardment in the previous codex states that the Ecclesiarchy is forbidden war vessels. And really, when the whole point of the Decree Passive is to remove the Ecclesiarchy's ability to engage in warfare against the rest of the Imperium, there needs to be some effect, even if Thor convinced everyone to let the honour guard, the Brides of the Emperor, remain intact.

that seems more to apply to spacecraft, specifically things like strike cruisers, and less to transports, tanks and artillery.

ChaosTicket
11-01-2011, 10:44
Another thing is that after the biggest even that shaped the current Ecclessiarchy is the Reign of Blood. During it Goge Vandire became the effective ruler of the Imperium as "regent" of the Emperor, Commander of the Imperial Guard, the Ecclessiarchy Leader, etc.

After Thor appeared and led a crusade to stop Vandire, the Brides of the Emperor were allowed freedom in exchange for becoming the newly formed Ordo Hereticus Chamber Militant. Ecclessiarchy also uses them to circumvent the "No Men-at-arms" rule, but there are also limits on what the Ecclessiarchy can have, as after that, Members of the Ecclessairchy were prevented from having Military positions and power like Vandire did.

The Ecclessiarchy still has widespread influence including missionaries to convert worlds, priests among certain imperial guard units especially primitive ones from said converted worlds.
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hey if you start stealing from Imperial Space Marines then you have another problem. Besides those space marines make much of their gear in the own forges and chapter monasteries.

But do you really want to sink that low Gatsby? Isnt Blessed ammo enough or do you want heavy bolters with hellfire rounds for every sister?

Gatsby
11-01-2011, 11:03
But do you really want to sink that low Gatsby? Isnt Blessed ammo enough or do you want heavy bolters with hellfire rounds for every sister?

not at all but your the one who wanted fluff for why they would have astartes gear. (and most astartes gear is made at forgeworlds with ties to those chapters.)

snaketrap
11-01-2011, 11:08
the Brides of the Emperor were allowed freedom in exchange for becoming the newly formed Ordo Hereticus Chamber Militant. Ecclessiarchy also uses them to circumvent the "No Men-at-arms" rule, but there are also limits on what the Ecclessiarchy can have, as after that, Members of the Ecclessairchy were prevented from having Military positions and power like Vandire did.



Do we actually know what those limits are. The only thing explicit limit I've ever seen is the lack of war vessels (space ships). My impression has always been that this was the major limiting factor imposed by the Decree Passive that the church couldn't work around. They can have as many girl soldiers as they like, and spend as much money as they want equipping them, but without the ability to independently transport them from system to system they wouldn't be a threat to the Imperium.

ChaosTicket
11-01-2011, 11:25
The overall scope of it was to remove any military power from the Ecclessairchy, as after all they conquered the Imperium once, who wants them to give it another go?

The Entire scope of it isnt know beyond major limits to their power, but whether they can use things from the Imperial navy or Guard such as valkyries, they could have removed by a very literal Inquisitor saying that they cant have anything that is important to the Imperial Guard or Adeptus Astartes who are the real fighters of the Imperium.

I dont think it's completely impossible but certainly improbable. Ordo Hereticus while having the some control over the Sororitas still wouldnt want them and their closer relation to the Ecclessiarchy to cause problems. The Ecclessairchy has more control over the Sororitas because of the strong Imperial Cult within them, and since about HALF of the Ordo Hereticus duties are to monitor the Ecclessiarchy for corruption, weapon hording, and just general rule breaking of the limits set on them, it would be a problem to over equip the Sororitas.

Example, Sisters start rolling out super heavy companies, gawking Inquisitors says "Where the hell did you get those" Then the Sororitas say "Ebay?".

eldargal
11-01-2011, 11:30
The Adepta Sororitas are the militant wing of the Ecclesiarchy first and chamber militant of the Ordo Hereticus second, it is strongly implied in the official fluff that the Convocation of Nephilim (whence the official agreement originates) occurs quite late in the SoBs history. It isn't mentioned at all in their earlier fluff. Really it was just a hasty and ill thought out retcon to justify cramming in a bunch of Inquisitorial units into C:WH.

They are forbidden their own warfleets certainly, but as people have already stated I doubt this would extend to actual tanks and aircraft, rather they are dependent on the Imperial Navy for transport and orbital support.

I have no doubt that the new codex will deliver a fresh new expanded SoB army selection, if Jes Goodwin says the vehicles are being expanded and revised to be much more Adepta Sororitasesque then it will be so.

ChaosTicket
11-01-2011, 11:42
Sure but it's also the only way that at some point Inquisitors didnt crack down on the Militant orders. If they werent useful to the Inquisition than they would finally deal with the flagrant breaking of the law that keeps the Ecclessiarchy from having military forces.
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Anyone think of anything the Astartes have that but that you dont want in a Sororitas army?

That's kind of funny that a Battle Sister Army would be so much smaller than an Imperial Guard one, maybe the size of a regiment at most.

Shamana
11-01-2011, 11:48
Besides, it wouldn't be like the Inquisition to not pay special attention to the Ecclesiarchy's elite troops, who tend to be extremely zealous in combatting undesirables like heretics, rogue psykers, and the like... oh, and also handle the security of Ecclesiarchal VIPs. And said elite troops' existence depends on some creative interpretation of the laws governing the conduct of the Ecclesiarchy, you say? Interesting...

I think that's the only reason why the Ecclesiarchy's lawyering of "men under arms" passed in the first place. At some point during the negotiations, I'd imagine someone with a bishop hat received a very polite "advice" that yes, that little trick of theirs could fly, but only if the girls had to moonlight on some special assignments every now and then.

snaketrap
11-01-2011, 11:49
The overall scope of it was to remove any military power from the Ecclessairchy, as after all they conquered the Imperium once, who wants them to give it another go?

The Entire scope of it isnt know beyond major limits to their power, but whether they can use things from the Imperial navy or Guard such as valkyries, they could have removed by a very literal Inquisitor saying that they cant have anything that is important to the Imperial Guard or Adeptus Astartes who are the real fighters of the Imperium.

I dont think it's completely impossible but certainly improbable. Ordo Hereticus while having the some control over the Sororitas still wouldnt want them and their closer relation to the Ecclessiarchy to cause problems. The Ecclessairchy has more control over the Sororitas because of the strong Imperial Cult within them, and since about HALF of the Ordo Hereticus duties are to monitor the Ecclessiarchy for corruption, weapon hording, and just general rule breaking of the limits set on them, it would be a problem to over equip the Sororitas.

Example, Sisters start rolling out super heavy companies, gawking Inquisitors says "Where the hell did you get those" Then the Sororitas say "Ebay?".

I don't think your interpretation is exactly accurate here. For one thing, the Sisters are (unless I am mistaken) a part of the Ecclessiarchy, completely under their control. They are the church's armed forces, permitted by poor wording in the Decree Passive (which is actually pretty ridiculous, but whatever). They exist as a work around to the Decree Passive, although it appears they are still limited in some ways (they don't have ships of their own). They have a working relationship with the Ordo Hereticus, but they are in fact controlled by the church.

The sisters are super well established and old organization in the Imperium. For them to be an effective combat force they must have access to a much, much larger arsenal then we've so far seen. The idea that they would have to hide their equipment from an inquisitor because it might violate the Decree Passive is ridiculous, especially since the entire organization exists as a work around to the Decree. Whatever restrictions the Decree put on the church seem to have been at least partially ignored, glossed over or worked around by the Sisters. To be an effective force in theaters across the galaxy the Sisters would have to have more in their arsenal than rocket boxes and freakshow walkers. Whatever limits the Decree put on them, the Sisters and the Church have lived with them or circumvented them for thousands of years and managed in that time to be a successful military organization.

So what I'm saying is that the Decree Passive doesn't seem like a good basis for saying that the Sisters can't have heavier equipment. Inquisitorial restrictions makes even less sense.

snaketrap
11-01-2011, 11:58
Sure but it's also the only way that at some point Inquisitors didnt crack down on the Militant orders. If they werent useful to the Inquisition than they would finally deal with the flagrant breaking of the law that keeps the Ecclessiarchy from having military forces.


Which law? The one they technically didn't break thousands of years ago (poor wording being what it was)? The law that is so old, so far out of recent memory, that no one might even be aware of it? Do you think anyone even really cares? Do you think anyone wants to begrudge the finest and most loyal human soldiers in the Imperium better equipment?

The fact is this: The Ecclessiarchy has military forces. They've had them for as long as anyone can remember. Apparently way back in the day they were limited by some Decree or another, but that doesn't seem to have stopped them. The Sisters of Battle are an institution within the Imperium, and the sword and shield of an even larger institution, one that is one of the two most influential in the entire galaxy. They won't be shut down.

The Decree Passive exists simply to explain why all the church's soldiers are women. Fluff wise it was an unsuccessful attempt to keep the church from having a military (although it did limit them in some unspecified ways). Rules wise, model wise and design wise there's no reason it should limit the army at all.

ChaosTicket
11-01-2011, 12:01
Not that old, the events that they came from happened only 5000 years ago.

I really do hope people arent going to start suggesting that the Adeptus Sororitas start stealing from the Imperial Navy, Guard, Astartes, etc. They already stole from the arbites and astartes enough
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The restrictions by by Thor and the Inquisition are actually pretty good basis if nothing more than the overall spirit of preventing the Ecclessairchy from having arms and armor. Because I just HAD TO ADMIT that it's not ironclad doesnt mean it allows them all sort of super heavy vehicles and a tank force. The Adeptus Sororitas are still a primarily ceremonial force to the Ecclessiarchy.

But whether they can get their hands on different vehicles isnt as much the problem but rather, what kind are they, where are they getting them from, etc. Again the Admechs dont like the Ecclessairchy and the priests dont like them back, so I dont think theyll be making lots of Baneblades for them.
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And no the Ecclessiarchy hasnt always had a military. They have had the Militant Orders to fight for them for 5000 years, and before that had an army, but the Reign of Blood ended their military power, besides the Sororitas.

AndrewGPaul
11-01-2011, 12:04
What did they steal from the Arbites? Thematically or in-universe?

ChaosTicket
11-01-2011, 12:08
Both really. In-universe, the Rhinos and Repressors were both Arbites tools before the Sisters gained them in different ways.

snaketrap
11-01-2011, 12:15
Not that old, the events that they came from happened only 5000 years ago.


That's pretty damn old. That's generations on top of generations. That's long enough to be ancient history. While Inquisitors surely vary in opinion, I'd find it hard to believe that many see the Sisters as anything other than a venerable and honorable imperial institution, one that can be called upon, put to work and used with minimal complaint. I doubt there are many Inquisitors who are chomping at the bit to close a loophole on a 5000 year old law that would put an end to the finest human soldiers in the Imperium.


The restrictions by by Thor and the Inquisition are actually pretty good basis if nothing more than the overall spirit of preventing the Ecclessairchy from having arms and armor. Because I just HAD TO ADMIT that it's not ironclad doesnt mean it allows them all sort of super heavy vehicles and a tank force. The Adeptus Sororitas are still a primarily ceremonial force to the Ecclessiarchy.

It also doesn't mean that they can't have tank force or super heavy vehicles. The fact is that we just don't know. I think it's ridiculous that they could be an effective fighting force and not have these things (when almost any enemy they'd fight would). It actually seems to me that the Ecclessairchy did a pretty good job of working around whatever restrictions the Decree Passive put on them. I've always felt that the Decree failed to keep the church from having an army, but succeeded in keeping them from being able to effectively muster that army without the help of other imperial agencies. In any case, there still isn't any evidence that the Decree keeps the Sisters from having larger weapons of war.


And no the Ecclessiarchy hasnt always had a military. They have had the Militant Orders to fight for them for 5000 years, and before that had an army, but the Reign of Blood ended their military power, besides the Sororit

What I meant was that 5000 years is a very, very long time. Long enough for the organization to become so entrenched that it would seem as if it had always been there. The Sisters have been the church's military for all that time. Thats's a long, long history.

ChaosTicket
11-01-2011, 12:24
Unless the Sisters are piloting vehicles it does! Besides the Admechs particularly hate the ecclessarchy.

And the overall problem is still the same as thousands of years ago, the Ecclessairchy building a military and conquering the rest of the Imperium. Vandire and the Reign of Blood was just the End of their power games at the time. Astartes, old knowledge for the admininstratum, and the Inquisition knows of their traitoris self serving actions.
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This has become a nice discussion but still it's off track as noboy has thought of any new things for a wish list.

Bikes are something I think would be possible, but I dont really have enough info about the Space marines bikes, like if each one has 400 horsepower so only Astartes can ride it.

Improved Seraphims are a must in that they at least need to get more shots from their bolt pistols. Things like Furious assault would be kind of a way to show them using double pistols in melee.

A Big thing to see are Cardinals with various gear like power weapons, Holy Relics, and just better than a regular old priest like makes the unit attached to become Fearless.

AndrewGPaul
11-01-2011, 12:26
Both really. In-universe, the Rhinos and Repressors were both Arbites tools before the Sisters gained them in different ways.

Everybody used Rhinos. The Rhino is older than both the Adepta Sororitas and the Adeptus Arbites. Saying the Sororitas "took" them from the Arbites is rather inaccurate. I'll need to check IA2 about the Repressor - I recall that it was a Sororitas design which was adopted by the Arbites, but it's been a while since I looked at it. It's certainly listed in the Witch Hunters section of the book.

ChaosTicket
11-01-2011, 12:30
Arbites had use of the Repressor way back in 2nd edition as a crowd control vehicle, without the flamethrower.

the Rhino is a stretch, but Arbites again had that way back during 2nd edition, but did the sororitas?

Chem-Dog
11-01-2011, 12:34
Read the fluff. The Repressor is a modified Arbite riot control vehicle. Never used for transporting prisoners, though, unless as an escort vehicle.

I was going by what was said in the thread earlier. Still doesn't explain why SoB's would have an Arbites tank at all.



Remember the Decree Passive. I am of the opinion that the Sisters should get zero combat aerospace craft and zero Ordinance, and that includes no MBTs

Well, as others have said, it's such un-touched turf that the precise nature of what is and isn't allowed is up to intepretation or at least, later re-classification.
That said, it's entirely possible that "Tank" is entirely the wrong word for this wonderous relic of the Imperium's faith and what symbol of the Emperor's Divine nature and right to rule the galaxy wouldn't be dripping with destructive weaponry?



I agree with a shrine-tank, so long as it's not just a touched up Shadowsword or Baneblade, but rather something closer to a Malcador, but only for the Sororitas.

It'd have to be a lot smaller than a Baneblade to fit into 40K ;)


And yes the ecclessiarchy should have more presence in the overall codex. But its a question of how much. the Sororitas are both a separate organisation and the Ecclessiarchy is Their Patron, but besides devote militia and the Sororitas then arent allowed any more military power.

A significantly armed individual is not a soldier, the Decree Passive doesn't prevent Ecclesiarchy representatives from carrying weapons as they go about their ministry as he isn't a "Man at arms" but simply an armed man. Same with the Frateris Militia, they don't violate the Decree as they are not a standing body of troops.

In real Game terms you can make almost anything fit into the fluff with the right piece of wording.


SoB should get lightnings as their flyer

Sweet lordy no! I'm not a hundred percent sure that the Sororitas shouldn't have a flyer but I know that if they do it shouldn't be that monstrosity.

I propose a Flying Gun-Church :D


The seraphim need to be given something to make up for the nerf to pistols, maybe special machine pistols (12" assault 2 twin linked)

Really? I don't play Sisters currently but a re-rolled to hit Shooting followed by an additional attack in CC and then Hit & Run sounds like a good combo.

Hand flamers have their own stat now, so rather than the hokey "counts as" rule they have at the moment a much more useful re-roll to wound becomes likely.


Jump pack HQ's need to have hit n' run so they can join Seraphim

Agreed, one assumes that a Canoness may well have been a Seraphim earlier in her life. Indeed a Canoness should also benefit from any special rules a Celestian has.
I would personally advocate any HQ having options to represent the Elite/Troops/Fast Attack sections of their codex and the rules to allow them, if so equipped, to join those units without penalty BUT we end up with some seriously game breaking units the moment we do allow this to happen.


Faith needs to be streamlined (not removed nor nerfed) just.... smoothed out.

A simple set of abilities rolled against Ld at the beginning of the player's turn should be sufficient.


Sure but it's also the only way that at some point Inquisitors didnt crack down on the Militant orders. If they werent useful to the Inquisition than they would finally deal with the flagrant breaking of the law that keeps the Ecclessiarchy from having military forces.

It's not flagrant law-breaking though, it's loop-hole exploiting compliance to the letter of the law, I imagine Sebastian Thor to have one hell of a poker face when it came to ratifying the Decree Passive.

Besides, you'd have to be one ballsy Inquisitor to try to tackle the Ecclesiarchy, you'd be setting yourself up against one of the biggest factions within the Imperium, one that has fingers in every pie and declair everything you do as an absolute heresy.

snaketrap
11-01-2011, 12:36
Everybody used Rhinos. The Rhino is older than both the Adepta Sororitas and the Adeptus Arbites. Saying the Sororitas "took" them from the Arbites is rather inaccurate. I'll need to check IA2 about the Repressor - I recall that it was a Sororitas design which was adopted by the Arbites, but it's been a while since I looked at it. It's certainly listed in the Witch Hunters section of the book.

It's actually the opposite. Arbites gifted the design to the Sisters.



This has become a nice discussion but still it's off track as noboy has thought of any new things for a wish list.

I'll pull some of my old ideas form another thread then:


What about horses?

I know that this is a little out of nowhere and may seem weird at first, but imagine a squad of power armored Sisters charging into battle on shinning white horses, armed for close combat. It certainly fits with the pseudo-Joan of Arc/saint imagery that has been prevalent in the last two books.

So, a fast cavalry unit armed for assault, with rending weapons and pistols. Maybe a stadard bearer? Something that feels a little more Warhammer fantasy?

So yeah... horses (which may or may not be a stupid idea). Sure, a horse is going to have trouble carrying power armor. How about lightly armored sisters on horseback? Repentia cavalry?


No, but... flying horses with wings, maybe? it's cheesy as all hell, but if done right could be totally awesome. I'm thinking less 4th grade girls fantasy and more badass Joan of Arc/Valkyre. Cavalry/jump troops? Does that even exist?


Celestial Choir. Seriously. A squad of sisters (possibly lightly armed and armored) that generate a Doom-like psychic blast attack based on the number of wounds the unit still has.

It could totally be a "Faith" attack that just happens during the psychic phase.

As some one else mentioned, units of sisters that act as dog handlers would be really cool!

Actually, I'd love to see more female Ecclesiarchy units. One of the reasons I don't overly care for the Ecclesiarchy in my Sisters army is that the break the Sisters "all female" theme. I'd never use militia because I don't want to field a bunch of dopey looking guys.






I would love to see some kind of mobile shrine - give it AV 14 all round, with assault ramps and a transport capacity of 20 (for a maxed out sisters squad) but with only defensive weapons.

Yes, please! Maybe you can pump faith points into it to get radius buffs?

AlexHolker
11-01-2011, 12:42
I think that's the only reason why the Ecclesiarchy's lawyering of "men under arms" passed in the first place. At some point during the negotiations, I'd imagine someone with a bishop hat received a very polite "advice" that yes, that little trick of theirs could fly, but only if the girls had to moonlight on some special assignments every now and then.
Thor convinced the Convocation to allow it. The fact that the SoB comply with the letter but not the spirit of the original declaration does not mean that Thor did anything underhanded. More likely, it was offered as a compromise that let the others save face, letting them back down from their initial excessive demand without having to admit they were wrong.

Gatsby
11-01-2011, 12:42
Not that old, the events that they came from happened only 5000 years ago.

point of order here, 5000 years is a LONG time, the Pyramids of Egypt aren't even 5000 years old. And even though they are FAR more advanced, 5000 years is going to start bringing into question the validity and accuracy of deals made.


I really do hope people arent going to start suggesting that the Adeptus Sororitas start stealing from the Imperial Navy, Guard, Astartes, etc. They already stole from the arbites and astartes enough

were did the idea of a rocket come from? it was stolen and improved upon. just to point out, being part of the same military structure (IoM) many vehicles, arms and equipment are going to be the same. The only changes are going to be aesthetic (im not trying to support copying, but pointing out fact) while the use and effectiveness are going to be roughly the same whether wielded by a guard, cop, sister or marine.


The restrictions by by Thor and the Inquisition are actually pretty good basis if nothing more than the overall spirit of preventing the Ecclessairchy from having arms and armor. Because I just HAD TO ADMIT that it's not ironclad doesnt mean it allows them all sort of super heavy vehicles and a tank force. The Adeptus Sororitas are still a primarily ceremonial force to the Ecclessiarchy.

I would hardly call the SoB ceremonial, they are more battle hardened than many marines. And actually we have seen NO details about what are restricted other than the vessels (and none of us have argued that they are restricted to a degree) which indicates that fleet based ships ARE restricted, but there is NOTHING saying that they don't have access to non-fleet based vehicles and equipment. I hardly think having a company of baneblades (just an example, I would rather the sister NOT have tanks such as this) would be very threatening if you cant get off the planet to use them.


But whether they can get their hands on different vehicles isnt as much the problem but rather, what kind are they, where are they getting them from, etc. Again the Admechs dont like the Ecclessairchy and the priests dont like them back, so I dont think theyll be making lots of Baneblades for them.

they may not like each other, but who's to say they don't have ambassadors making deals for them. Despite not liking each other they have a common goal, and they aren't going to say "NO you CANT have a tank, I don't CARE if chaos marines are on their way to kill me right now, I hate YOU and you cant have this rhino!!! BESIDES I JUST got it detailed..."


And no the Ecclessiarchy hasnt always had a military. They have had the Militant Orders to fight for them for 5000 years, and before that had an army, but the Reign of Blood ended their military power, besides the Sororitas.

You said it yourself, BESIDES the Sororitas, they are STILL a military power and as such they still have certain needs that were they NOT given would bring their military efficiency to ZERO. That includes tanks, transports (rhinos and valks, or whatever air lifting transports they use) artillery (exorcists) air superiority fighters (even if they operate from forward air bases rather than carriers in orbit) etc.

ChaosTicket
11-01-2011, 12:44
I dont know why anyone cares about rending anymore? It was great when 3rd edition Tyranids got it as their werent allowed power weapons, but now it's alot weaker.

The Mobile Shrine thing seems like it would be a super heavy.

Celestial choir does make me think of a support unit that might provide some sort of buff. Them having psykers is a no-no. They hunt down psykers, so having them would be like daemons among grey knights. They already have "issues" with the likes of navigators and Inquisitors with warp powers.

Unarmored Horses arent stupid, but foolish. They dont do that well for Rough Riders, so having them carrying a carapace armored women with a chainsaw doesnt seem that good. It would look somewhere between funky and awesome, and the results would be about the same.
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And the "stealing" is more like this. Imperial Guard have Leman Russ? We should have that, without any changes. Astartes have Predators? We want predators. Give things more than just a Sister using it.

Hey I feel like Thor would all this time later to see the Ecclessiarchy using loopholes to get a military, by taking macvhines and weapons used by the superhuman Astartes and rugged Imperial Guard and just putting women in them. Seriously? Is that what people want? Predators and Leman Russ tanks with Sisters as the crew?

this seems to extend to say the Imperial Guard is being replaced by the Battle Sisters who apparently dont have any restrictions besides needing to be female.

AndrewGPaul
11-01-2011, 12:50
Arbites had use of the Repressor way back in 2nd edition as a crowd control vehicle, without the flamethrower.[/url]

Given that the Adeptus Arbites' sole appearance in 2nd edition was one squad in White Dwarf 169, and the Repressor didn't exist until Forge World invented it and put the rules in Imperial Armour volume 2, I doubt that.

[quote]the Rhino is a stretch, but Arbites again had that way back during 2nd edition, but did the sororitas?

Yes, they did. Actually, now that you mention it, I can't even remember if the aforementioned Arbites squad entry even allowed them to buy a Rhino.

AndrewGPaul
11-01-2011, 12:56
Really? I don't play Sisters currently but a re-rolled to hit Shooting followed by an additional attack in CC and then Hit & Run sounds like a good combo.

Hand flamers have their own stat now, so rather than the hokey "counts as" rule they have at the moment a much more useful re-roll to wound becomes likely.

For what it's worth, in 2nd edition Seraphim had twin-linkd bolt-pistols, and one model could have twin-linked hand-flamers - these could either be fired separately, using two small hand-flamer templates, or they could be combined to fire as a single flamer. If you gave the Canoness a Seraphim bodyguard, everyone could get twin flamers. :D That sort of armament would probably work well in the current edition. It allows the squad to get reasonably close to the enemy and have a decent chance at wiping out nearby foes, without making them melee powerhouses too.

snaketrap
11-01-2011, 13:01
I dont know why anyone cares about rending anymore? It was great when 3rd edition Tyranids got it as their werent allowed power weapons, but now it's alot weaker.



It's still great, and a good option for when you want to an effective combat squad but don't want to pay for every member to have power weapons (like Genestealers). It's also great for representing the middle point between normal close combat weapons and power weapons.



http://my.deviantart.com/messages/#/d36xe7k

It wouldn't have to be. Especially if it's not all that mobile. What if it was a defensive point instead, a slow moving vehicle that granted aura buffs that the Sisters had to defend? No reason to slot it in as a super heavy just because it's big. Russes, Land Raiders and Monoliths are all huge. A shrine wouldn't have to be any bigger.


Celestial choir does make me think of a support unit that might provide some sort of buff. Them having psykers is a no-no. They hunt down psykers, so having them would be like daemons among grey knights. They already have "issues" with the likes of navigators and Inquisitors with warp powers.

It wouldn't be a psychic attack (obviously), but a faith based attack. A miracle that used the psychic rules. If it makes you feel better it could simply be a shooting attack that happens during the shooting phase. Calling it a psychic attack was an attempt to compare it to something that already exist in the game.


Unarmored Horses arent stupid, but foolish. They dont do that well for Rough Riders, so having them carrying a carapace armored women with a chainsaw doesnt seem that good. It would look somewhere between funky and awesome, and the results would be about the same.

Comparing them to Rough Riders is a losing proposition, since Rough Riders are pretty crappy. Lets compare them to Thunder Wolves instead, which seem to do pretty well. If it's a weight issue, well... horses can actually carry quite heavy loads without being hampered. And as I said, they would be great for lightly armored Repentia. If it's a chainsaw issue... well, this is 40K. People wave chainsaws around as a part of everyday life. Horses have had thousands of years to get used to that. Hell, we can give the horse a chainsaw too if you think it will help.

ChaosTicket
11-01-2011, 13:02
Quote-Originally the Repressor was issued purely to the Arbites and were equipped with weapons designed for crowd suppression. The first instance of the Repressor's use by the Adepta Sororitas was during an uprising on the cardinal world of Avignor. The Sisters crewed a dozen of the vehicles, first arming them with heavy flamers. After two weeks of street fighting the uprising was defeated. Eventually the Sisterhood was given access to the Repressor.

In Third Edition the Adeptus Arbites had an official army list (Citadel Journal 29) I saw that way back 5-8 years ago with rules for Repressors, rhinos, etc.
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Choirs of Sisters using magical attacks stinks of witchcraft.

About the Shrine, That would have the level of armor a land Raider or Super heavy like the Gorgon has, carrying 20 or so sisters which who knows how many weapons. It sounds like a mid point between a battlewagon and a Gorgon.

AndrewGPaul
11-01-2011, 13:09
Ah, fair enough - wasn't sure about that.

As to the Journal army list, you said 2nd edition above, which is what I was replying to. :)

snaketrap
11-01-2011, 13:11
Quote-Originally the Repressor was issued purely to the Arbites and were equipped with weapons designed for crowd suppression. The first instance of the Repressor's use by the Adepta Sororitas was during an uprising on the cardinal world of Avignor. The Sisters crewed a dozen of the vehicles, first arming them with heavy flamers. After two weeks of street fighting the uprising was defeated. Eventually the Sisterhood was given access to the Repressor.

In Third Edition the Adeptus Arbites had an official army list (Citadel Journal 29) I saw that way back 5-8 years ago with rules for Repressors, rhinos, etc.

I remember that list. I don't know if it was actually official (was anything from the Journal?), but that is where the Repressor comes from. I think they even had a conversion guide with instructions on how to make your own. I thought it was pretty cool.

Gatsby
11-01-2011, 13:16
Really? I don't play Sisters currently but a re-rolled to hit Shooting followed by an additional attack in CC and then Hit & Run sounds like a good combo.

Hand flamers have their own stat now, so rather than the hokey "counts as" rule they have at the moment a much more useful re-roll to wound becomes likely.

Thats actually what seraphim began life as, back in the olden days pistols had 2 shots. So that actually brings them back to what they were originally intended to be. And seraphim are the origin of the hand flamer (and i prefer theirs as its a real flamer not a weak one, although i always used inferno pistols and melta bombs as they are my anti tank unit in my Grey Knights list)

as for the lightning, its a flyer... and it has a double as an Apocalypse IG unit.

Personally i would prefer something more like the vulture gunship but rather than punisher CANNONS... punisher ORGANS.... to far... yea... i feel bad for having made that one up...

ok one more try:

Sisters Educanus: ruler armed Sisters, special rule, Red Handed: Units may not use CC weapons against this unit as their hands hurt to much from being slapped....

Ok NOW im done...

ok one more, I would like an Arbites K-9 unit.

snaketrap
11-01-2011, 13:22
And seraphim are the origin of the hand flamer .

Not true actually. The hand flamer was available as general equipment in the 2nd edition rule book, and there was a plastic hand flamer that came with the marine close combat sprue. Serephim were the first model that I ever noticed were specifically listed as being equipped with them though.

Gatsby
11-01-2011, 13:28
Not true actually. The hand flamer was available as general equipment in the 2nd edition rule book, and there was a plastic hand flamer that came with the marine close combat sprue. Serephim were the first model that I ever noticed were specifically listed as being equipped with them though.

yea... back then I was so hopped up on Surge and Super Mario Brothers I don't remember much from that era.:p

but i do know that during 4th, Seraphim were awesome, especially with St. Celestine running with them. I just want them made back into what they used to be.

Angelwing
11-01-2011, 13:34
Quote-Originally the Repressor was issued purely to the Arbites and were equipped with weapons designed for crowd suppression. The first instance of the Repressor's use by the Adepta Sororitas was during an uprising on the cardinal world of Avignor. The Sisters crewed a dozen of the vehicles, first arming them with heavy flamers. After two weeks of street fighting the uprising was defeated. Eventually the Sisterhood was given access to the Repressor.

In Third Edition the Adeptus Arbites had an official army list (Citadel Journal 29) I saw that way back 5-8 years ago with rules for Repressors, rhinos, etc.



I remember that list. I don't know if it was actually official (was anything from the Journal?), but that is where the Repressor comes from. I think they even had a conversion guide with instructions on how to make your own. I thought it was pretty cool.

The Citadel journal 29 adeptus arbites list was chapter approved ie an official add on for the game. It's still the current army list for them.
They didn't have the repressor in the list, rhinos and chimeras only.
The repressor was created by forgeworld, but had it's origins in the citadel journal 23 covert x article which had a conversion of the 2nd ed immolator with a rogue trader conversion beamer in the turret to represent a heavy webber. It was called the castigator crowd control vehicle.

AndrewGPaul
11-01-2011, 13:45
Not true actually. The hand flamer was available as general equipment in the 2nd edition rule book, and there was a plastic hand flamer that came with the marine close combat sprue. Serephim were the first model that I ever noticed were specifically listed as being equipped with them though.

Pretty much every Imperial army could buy them as an upgrade for close combat troops. There are a Valhallan sergeant and lieutenant and a commissar model armed with them, and my Space Marine assault squad had three or four.

snaketrap
11-01-2011, 13:46
The Citadel journal 29 adeptus arbites list was chapter approved ie an official add on for the game. It's still the current army list for them.
They didn't have the repressor in the list, rhinos and chimeras only.
The repressor was created by forgeworld, but had it's origins in the citadel journal 23 covert x article which had a conversion of the 2nd ed immolator with a rogue trader conversion beamer in the turret to represent a heavy webber. It was called the castigator crowd control vehicle.

The Castigator. Yes. That's what I was thinking of.

Teufelskerl
11-01-2011, 15:51
I think I am a perfect representative of the "Hard Sell" for GW. I already own 2 full Commands (5000+ point Apocalypse size armies) of fully painted SoB (one painted as Order of the Bloody Rose, the other Order of the Sacred Rose) as well as enough unpainted minis to make up a further Apoc sized army. I've been collecting SoB since 2nd Edition.

This doesn't mean that I'm not open to collecting more; far from it. I like the original Diaz/Goodwin aesthetic and the Sisters fluff is great. More so, I'm already monetarily and emotionally invested in the SoB. So what makes me a 'Hard Sell'?

The primary thing that GW needs to do it to publish a competative codex. Yes, I actually demand that the WH codex be able to compete with the likes of the Space Wolves, the Imperial Guard, the Blood Angels and their ilk, and actually win. Win in such a way that it gains my opponents respect.

The 3rd Edition Codex did have a few good ideas, but it was like they took those ideas then dragged them through the pig sty. It stank of cr*p. Andy and Graham should have been ashamed of themselves.

Repentia? What an awful idea. Not the concept, the execution. Did no one play even a single test game with the codex before it was published?

Penitent Engines was such a blatent "let's give WH a Dreadnaught too, but let's not make them as good" idea. Because we all know how good Dreadnaughts were in 3rd Edition, heaven forfend the WH actually have something that might be effective.

Acts of Faith were an awesome idea, but they were directly responsible for pissing off more of my opponents than anything else. Most of my opponents had never played vs. WH before and were used to doing the rapid shift from one phase to the next (it's called playing quickly, tournaments encourage it.) I was continually having to say, "Whoa, whoa, I need to stop you there and go back to the end of your movement phase so I can roll for this Act of Faith." I got to a point where I made my opponents read the Acts of Faith page in the codex before the game started. It didn't make them any happier, but at least I only needed to explain what each thing did once. Oh yes, I should point out that Acts of Faith may have won me games, but they also hurt my sportsmanship scores. I suppose I should have given up on the SoB and gone back to playing Marines like everyone else. Oh, wait! That's what I did!

How the ***** did that help GW?

Make sure that the damn codex works before it's published this time.

I want to play SoB. I want to buy SoB. Make it easy for me GW. You've got at least 9 months before this thing goes to the printer so get it right the first time.

- WH Inquisitors that can hold their own vs. the GK Inquisitors. How about Inquisitor retinues that include members of the non-militant orders. Yeah, I know they aren't supposed to 'go to war' but this wouldn't be the first time you've ret-conned and you've already had a Sister Hospitaller showing up in retinues for years. Make the WH Inq retinues like the IG retinues with the HQ getting bonuses depending upon which member of the retinue taken.

- Add in the Flamestorm Cannon. This is tailor made for the Sisters and would add an incredibly valuable long range tank weapon. That actually might bring their long range capability up to only pitiful.

- That brings me to this point: just because you want to make the SoB be a short-ranged shooty army doesn't mean that they must suck at everything else. You've hopefully figured this out, but we, the players, like options. We don't like being stuck with an army that has a single role that you define. Maybe we might actually like to have our SoB army not have to get within 12" to be effective. Radical idea, I know.

- Implement the Acts of Faith in such a way that it flows more easily into the game system. Perhaps something more in line with the IG orders system. Don't scrap the Acts of Faith idea, it's a good one, it just needs to be worked into the gam better.

- Repentia. Fearless, Fleet, Feel No Pain, Furious Charge. Hell, add in an invulnerable save. YOU are the one that made this cr*ppy evicerator delivery system 20 points. Fix the system or change the points. Or, perhaps, give them more options...

- Stormtroopers. I'm going to assume that you will be going for a Stormtrooper system similar to the GK. Don't. GK are being targeted as the elite of the elite, this is not what the WH are. They are an army of Faith. They are an army of numbers; not as large as an IG army, but larger than a SM army. They are the lynch mob of villagers, storming Frankensteins castle, taken to it's most extreme form. The Stormtroopers should be more of a demi-company of IG. The don't need to be of Veteran caliber, but if you are going to charge that number of points for them, then they deserve to have at least as many options as the IG get.

- I'll sum up SoB squads, Celestians, Seraphim, Dominions, and all the rest in one succint statement. They need more options. Don't tell me how to play them and limit me to only the options that allow for that play, let me choose how I want to play my Retributors. Give me a good WH weapon that shoots more than 36". Give me a good option to tool my squads for CC then options to actually allow me to get there before the squad is killed.

You can do this, we all know you can, we've read the other codeci. The Sisters deserve the chance to be a contender.

Any GW, you deserve the chance to keep me as a customer. That is what you want, right?


Frederich

Chem-Dog
12-01-2011, 03:26
point of order here, 5000 years is a LONG time, the Pyramids of Egypt aren't even 5000 years old. And even though they are FAR more advanced, 5000 years is going to start bringing into question the validity and accuracy of deals made.

OR, on the other hand, 5000 years in a superstition saturated society sees things that have existed for so long not messed about with.




The Mobile Shrine thing seems like it would be a super heavy

Surely this depoends entirely on how big the thing was, no?

I had something roughly Screaming Bell in stature pictured when I was thinking about it.




Yes, they did. Actually, now that you mention it, I can't even remember if the aforementioned Arbites squad entry even allowed them to buy a Rhino.

It did, I still remember keenly the pain I felt as I lept an Arbites squad out of their rhino forgetting it'd moved at fast speed that turn and then having to avoid taking damage, the only Arbitrator that survived was the leader who'd brought a displacer field along.


For what it's worth, in 2nd edition Seraphim had twin-linkd bolt-pistols, and one model could have twin-linked hand-flamers - these could either be fired separately, using two small hand-flamer templates, or they could be combined to fire as a single flamer.

Thats actually what seraphim began life as, back in the olden days pistols had 2 shots. So that actually brings them back to what they were originally intended to be.

Cheers guys, I still own a copy of the SoB codex :cool:
I was asking if the current rules' effects on the equipment are actually all that bad, like I said, A Bs4 Bolt Pistol shot that re-rolls to hit gives you a pretty reliable bout of pre-assault shooting and two pistols = +1 A so surely everyon'es a winner, right?

Vet.Sister
12-01-2011, 18:05
I think I am a perfect representative of the "Hard Sell" for GW. I already own 2 full Commands (5000+ point Apocalypse size armies) of fully painted SoB (one painted as Order of the Bloody Rose, the other Order of the Sacred Rose) as well as enough unpainted minis to make up a further Apoc sized army. I've been collecting SoB since 2nd Edition.

This doesn't mean that I'm not open to collecting more; far from it. I like the original Diaz/Goodwin aesthetic and the Sisters fluff is great. More so, I'm already monetarily and emotionally invested in the SoB. So what makes me a 'Hard Sell'?

The primary thing that GW needs to do it to publish a competative codex. Yes, I actually demand that the WH codex be able to compete with the likes of the Space Wolves, the Imperial Guard, the Blood Angels and their ilk, and actually win. Win in such a way that it gains my opponents respect.

The 3rd Edition Codex did have a few good ideas, but it was like they took those ideas then dragged them through the pig sty. It stank of cr*p. Andy and Graham should have been ashamed of themselves.

Repentia? What an awful idea. Not the concept, the execution. Did no one play even a single test game with the codex before it was published?

Penitent Engines was such a blatent "let's give WH a Dreadnaught too, but let's not make them as good" idea. Because we all know how good Dreadnaughts were in 3rd Edition, heaven forfend the WH actually have something that might be effective.

Acts of Faith were an awesome idea, but they were directly responsible for pissing off more of my opponents than anything else. Most of my opponents had never played vs. WH before and were used to doing the rapid shift from one phase to the next (it's called playing quickly, tournaments encourage it.) I was continually having to say, "Whoa, whoa, I need to stop you there and go back to the end of your movement phase so I can roll for this Act of Faith." I got to a point where I made my opponents read the Acts of Faith page in the codex before the game started. It didn't make them any happier, but at least I only needed to explain what each thing did once. Oh yes, I should point out that Acts of Faith may have won me games, but they also hurt my sportsmanship scores. I suppose I should have given up on the SoB and gone back to playing Marines like everyone else. Oh, wait! That's what I did!

How the ***** did that help GW?

Make sure that the damn codex works before it's published this time.

I want to play SoB. I want to buy SoB. Make it easy for me GW. You've got at least 9 months before this thing goes to the printer so get it right the first time.

- WH Inquisitors that can hold their own vs. the GK Inquisitors. How about Inquisitor retinues that include members of the non-militant orders. Yeah, I know they aren't supposed to 'go to war' but this wouldn't be the first time you've ret-conned and you've already had a Sister Hospitaller showing up in retinues for years. Make the WH Inq retinues like the IG retinues with the HQ getting bonuses depending upon which member of the retinue taken.

- Add in the Flamestorm Cannon. This is tailor made for the Sisters and would add an incredibly valuable long range tank weapon. That actually might bring their long range capability up to only pitiful.

- That brings me to this point: just because you want to make the SoB be a short-ranged shooty army doesn't mean that they must suck at everything else. You've hopefully figured this out, but we, the players, like options. We don't like being stuck with an army that has a single role that you define. Maybe we might actually like to have our SoB army not have to get within 12" to be effective. Radical idea, I know.

- Implement the Acts of Faith in such a way that it flows more easily into the game system. Perhaps something more in line with the IG orders system. Don't scrap the Acts of Faith idea, it's a good one, it just needs to be worked into the gam better.

- Repentia. Fearless, Fleet, Feel No Pain, Furious Charge. Hell, add in an invulnerable save. YOU are the one that made this cr*ppy evicerator delivery system 20 points. Fix the system or change the points. Or, perhaps, give them more options...

- Stormtroopers. I'm going to assume that you will be going for a Stormtrooper system similar to the GK. Don't. GK are being targeted as the elite of the elite, this is not what the WH are. They are an army of Faith. They are an army of numbers; not as large as an IG army, but larger than a SM army. They are the lynch mob of villagers, storming Frankensteins castle, taken to it's most extreme form. The Stormtroopers should be more of a demi-company of IG. The don't need to be of Veteran caliber, but if you are going to charge that number of points for them, then they deserve to have at least as many options as the IG get.

- I'll sum up SoB squads, Celestians, Seraphim, Dominions, and all the rest in one succint statement. They need more options. Don't tell me how to play them and limit me to only the options that allow for that play, let me choose how I want to play my Retributors. Give me a good WH weapon that shoots more than 36". Give me a good option to tool my squads for CC then options to actually allow me to get there before the squad is killed.

You can do this, we all know you can, we've read the other codeci. The Sisters deserve the chance to be a contender.

Any GW, you deserve the chance to keep me as a customer. That is what you want, right?


Frederich


THIS!!! A googleplex times this!
Thank you for posting this as it does sum up my feelings as well.

Gatsby
12-01-2011, 19:00
Acts of Faith were an awesome idea, but they were directly responsible for pissing off more of my opponents than anything else. Most of my opponents had never played vs. WH before and were used to doing the rapid shift from one phase to the next (it's called playing quickly, tournaments encourage it.) I was continually having to say, "Whoa, whoa, I need to stop you there and go back to the end of your movement phase so I can roll for this Act of Faith." I got to a point where I made my opponents read the Acts of Faith page in the codex before the game started. It didn't make them any happier, but at least I only needed to explain what each thing did once. Oh yes, I should point out that Acts of Faith may have won me games, but they also hurt my sportsmanship scores. I suppose I should have given up on the SoB and gone back to playing Marines like everyone else. Oh, wait! That's what I did!

Sounds to me more like the other players needed the poor sportsmanship scores. I never ran into an issue using them. And I hope that the only thing that they do to the Acts of Faith is remove the unused acts (strength bonus) and add something new (FNP/fleet/something useful.)

Inquisitor Gabriel Ashe
12-01-2011, 23:09
Eh, I actually used the strength bonus a LOT against Nids. It made it reasonably possible to damage a Tyranid Prime.

Vet.Sister
12-01-2011, 23:56
Thor convinced the Convocation to allow it. The fact that the SoB comply with the letter but not the spirit of the original declaration does not mean that Thor did anything underhanded. More likely, it was offered as a compromise that let the others save face, letting them back down from their initial excessive demand without having to admit they were wrong.

Plus the final reason he gave was truly the cherry on top of the sunday. QUOTE - ...the Battle Sisters would regulate the Ecclesiarchy as much as enforce its will... UNQUOTE

The High Lords of Terra were willing to accept the Battle Sisters pretty much "as is" in return for their help to ensure there would never be another Reign of Blood.

What exactly Battle Sisters are or are NOT allowed has never really been written down by GW designers. Basically the designers have left themselves a blank slate to fill at a later date if they choose to do so. :shifty:

Mcbruce
13-01-2011, 04:16
I think I am a perfect representative of the "Hard Sell" for GW. I already own 2 full Commands (5000+ point Apocalypse size armies) of fully painted SoB (one painted as Order of the Bloody Rose, the other Order of the Sacred Rose) as well as enough unpainted minis to make up a further Apoc sized army. I've been collecting SoB since 2nd Edition.

This doesn't mean that I'm not open to collecting more; far from it. I like the original Diaz/Goodwin aesthetic and the Sisters fluff is great. More so, I'm already monetarily and emotionally invested in the SoB. So what makes me a 'Hard Sell'?

The primary thing that GW needs to do it to publish a competative codex. Yes, I actually demand that the WH codex be able to compete with the likes of the Space Wolves, the Imperial Guard, the Blood Angels and their ilk, and actually win. Win in such a way that it gains my opponents respect.

The 3rd Edition Codex did have a few good ideas, but it was like they took those ideas then dragged them through the pig sty. It stank of cr*p. Andy and Graham should have been ashamed of themselves.

Repentia? What an awful idea. Not the concept, the execution. Did no one play even a single test game with the codex before it was published?

Penitent Engines was such a blatent "let's give WH a Dreadnaught too, but let's not make them as good" idea. Because we all know how good Dreadnaughts were in 3rd Edition, heaven forfend the WH actually have something that might be effective.

Acts of Faith were an awesome idea, but they were directly responsible for pissing off more of my opponents than anything else. Most of my opponents had never played vs. WH before and were used to doing the rapid shift from one phase to the next (it's called playing quickly, tournaments encourage it.) I was continually having to say, "Whoa, whoa, I need to stop you there and go back to the end of your movement phase so I can roll for this Act of Faith." I got to a point where I made my opponents read the Acts of Faith page in the codex before the game started. It didn't make them any happier, but at least I only needed to explain what each thing did once. Oh yes, I should point out that Acts of Faith may have won me games, but they also hurt my sportsmanship scores. I suppose I should have given up on the SoB and gone back to playing Marines like everyone else. Oh, wait! That's what I did!

How the ***** did that help GW?

Make sure that the damn codex works before it's published this time.

I want to play SoB. I want to buy SoB. Make it easy for me GW. You've got at least 9 months before this thing goes to the printer so get it right the first time.

- WH Inquisitors that can hold their own vs. the GK Inquisitors. How about Inquisitor retinues that include members of the non-militant orders. Yeah, I know they aren't supposed to 'go to war' but this wouldn't be the first time you've ret-conned and you've already had a Sister Hospitaller showing up in retinues for years. Make the WH Inq retinues like the IG retinues with the HQ getting bonuses depending upon which member of the retinue taken.

- Add in the Flamestorm Cannon. This is tailor made for the Sisters and would add an incredibly valuable long range tank weapon. That actually might bring their long range capability up to only pitiful.

- That brings me to this point: just because you want to make the SoB be a short-ranged shooty army doesn't mean that they must suck at everything else. You've hopefully figured this out, but we, the players, like options. We don't like being stuck with an army that has a single role that you define. Maybe we might actually like to have our SoB army not have to get within 12" to be effective. Radical idea, I know.

- Implement the Acts of Faith in such a way that it flows more easily into the game system. Perhaps something more in line with the IG orders system. Don't scrap the Acts of Faith idea, it's a good one, it just needs to be worked into the gam better.

- Repentia. Fearless, Fleet, Feel No Pain, Furious Charge. Hell, add in an invulnerable save. YOU are the one that made this cr*ppy evicerator delivery system 20 points. Fix the system or change the points. Or, perhaps, give them more options...

- Stormtroopers. I'm going to assume that you will be going for a Stormtrooper system similar to the GK. Don't. GK are being targeted as the elite of the elite, this is not what the WH are. They are an army of Faith. They are an army of numbers; not as large as an IG army, but larger than a SM army. They are the lynch mob of villagers, storming Frankensteins castle, taken to it's most extreme form. The Stormtroopers should be more of a demi-company of IG. The don't need to be of Veteran caliber, but if you are going to charge that number of points for them, then they deserve to have at least as many options as the IG get.

- I'll sum up SoB squads, Celestians, Seraphim, Dominions, and all the rest in one succint statement. They need more options. Don't tell me how to play them and limit me to only the options that allow for that play, let me choose how I want to play my Retributors. Give me a good WH weapon that shoots more than 36". Give me a good option to tool my squads for CC then options to actually allow me to get there before the squad is killed.

You can do this, we all know you can, we've read the other codeci. The Sisters deserve the chance to be a contender.

Any GW, you deserve the chance to keep me as a customer. That is what you want, right?


Frederich


Basically all of this, well put sir.

Also going back to the celestial choir idea from last page. Not the first time thats popped up in one form or another. My personal take would be an area of effect buff/debuff unit with various songs/hymns/chants representing various in game effects i.e: Reroll morale tests, reroll acts of faith tests, reduce enemy leadership, reduce enemy WS/BS, grant nearby unit a USR for one turn and so on. No actual direct damage stuff.

AlphariusOmegon20
13-01-2011, 07:30
Sounds very Imperial to me, honestly. Between the Administratum, Inquisition, Munitorum, I doubt there is anyone who has a problem sending unarmed medics to the front. The Emperor protects the faithful.

I'd like so see a new heavy vehicle, sort of like the Land Raider for the sisters. Could make a combined kit that makes a MBT or a mobile war shrine. Like the Malcador in plastic, but with Sister stylings. I would say use the Land Raider chassis, but they are Astartes only.

Rhinos are also technically Astartes only, but Sisters have those....


I remember a Castigator (It used a Heavy Webber similar to the night spinner) showing up in a Journal years ago for Arbites. Perhaps Arbites could get that for a dedicated vehicle, and Sisters could get the Repressor as a dedicated instead of plain rhinos

Charistoph
13-01-2011, 16:59
Instead of focusing on an MBT, they have an LBT, ala the Hellhound series? Two of the series even use the primary weapons of the Sisters, and just drop the poisoned option and replace it with a TL Heavy Bolter version or something. The Immolator than gets put on full DT duty instead of HS.

Vet.Sister
13-01-2011, 17:46
I also would like to see some sort or Bradley Fighting Vehicle/Armored Humvee with the standard Sisters weapon options as a choice in the Fast Attack slot. Basically a fast ground based vehicle with a heavy weapon and a pintle-mounted option. IIRC no other army has something like this, so it's my wish for something new that isn't just a "cut & paste" from another Imperial army codex. :)

AlexHolker
13-01-2011, 17:47
I also would like to see some sort or Bradley Fighting Vehicle/Armored Humvee with the standard Sisters weapon options as a choice in the Fast Attack slot. Basically a fast ground based vehicle with a heavy weapon and a pintle-mounted option. IIRC no other army has something like this, so it's my wish for something new that isn't just a "cut & paste" from another Imperial army codex. :)
You mean an Immolator?

Vet.Sister
13-01-2011, 17:57
You mean an Immolator?

No... I mean a fast non-tank vehicle, like an armored Humvee. Immolators only have a normal 12" move. The new vehicle should have the 'fast' movement rate.(ie upto 24")

EDIT --> It also should NOT be a skimmer. :)

Charistoph
13-01-2011, 19:25
No... I mean a fast non-tank vehicle, like an armored Humvee. Immolators only have a normal 12" move. The new vehicle should have the 'fast' movement rate.(ie upto 24")

EDIT --> It also should NOT be a skimmer. :)

Fast non-Skimmers only go 18", don't they?

A good current analogue for such a vehicle is the Ork Wartrukk/Wartrack. Update it with Imperium armaments, Arbites/Sororitas standards, and there you go. IG had a similar vehicle in their last codex, though I never saw the model...

Inquisitor_Eljer
13-01-2011, 19:29
Way back in 2007 I had the following idea:

Sisters of Antiquity - Elite - Restricted to 0-1 per army

Pts. WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
Sister of Antiquity 45 4 4 3(4) 3 2 4(5) 1(2) 9 2+
VSS of Antiquity 55 4 4 3(4) 3 3 4(5) 2(3) 10 2+

Sisters of Antiquity are the most venerable, pious and faithful
sisters who are entrusted with their Order's few suits of Artificier
Armour bestowed upon each Priory by order of the Emperor himself.

Squad: The squad consists of one Veteran Sister of Antiquity and
between 2 and 6 Sisters of Antiquity

Weapons: Sisters of Antiquity carry into battle a pair of wrist-
mounted bolt-pistols and a matched pair of annointed 'Blade-Whips'

Annointed Blade-Whips - Annointed Blade-Whips are power-bladed
Neural-Whips that add +1 to Str and +1 to Init and are considered
power weapons. They are a matched pair of single handed whips, and
wielding a pair confers the additional +1 bonus to CC attacks. No
other attack benefits are recieved in CC from any other weapons.

Options: Up to two Sisters of Antiquity may be armed with wrist-
mounted flame-pistols (firing as a normal flamer) at +5 pts, wrist-
bolters (using a storm bolter profile) at +5 points, or wrist-
mounted inferno pistols at +20 pts.

The squad may be equipped with frag grenades at an additional cost
of +1 pt per model, and krak grenades at an additional cost of +2
pts per model.

Characters:
The Veteran Sister of Antiquity must be upgraded to a Veteran
Superior for an additional cost of +10 pts. She may be given any
equipment allowed from the Witch Hunters Armoury.
One Sister of Antiquity in the squad not equiped with special
weapons may be upgraded to an Imagifer at the
cost of +15 points. An Imagifer carries a Simulacrum Imperialis.

SPECIAL RULES
Adepta Sororitas: Sisters of Antiquity are subject to all the
special rules detailed in Codex: Witch-Hunter.

Faithful: Sisters of Antiquity are Faithful, regardless of the
presence of a Faithful character. Each squad's presence adds +2 to
the army's Faith Point total. If all members of the squad should
perish the army's faith point
total is reduced by -1.

Holy Hatred: When in close combat with any enemy with a WS
attribute, Sisters of Antiquity hit on a 3+ regardless of respective
Weapon Skill values. This advantage does not apply if the enemy is
an independent character or Monstrous Creature. [This is identical
to the Preferred Enemy special rule, but applies to everyone]

Thoughts and suggestions?

Obviously more in-line with the older rules, etc., but you get the idea.

I like most of the suggestions floating around that update the existing units to a more 5th edition power-level, points, USR, etc. I agree that we need to keep the flavor of the Faith Systems, but it needs to be streamlined for non-sisters players since they seem to 'not get it' and get irritated more by Faith than the other special rules out there.

Problem unit is still the Repentia - FNP with Fleet and point drop maybe?

Seraphim need a point drop, and or revised rules for their pistols / weapons.

I'd make Sarissa standard kit on Celestians only, not the basic Troop Battle Sisters.

I'd revise the Exorcist to have 'weapon destroyed results reduce the 1d6 shots per turn reduce by -1 per weapon destroyed result'. I'd also consider allowing them to have sponson mounted Hvy Flamers, Hvy Bolters or Multi-Meltas as expensive upgrades.

Immolator out of Hvy Support and a DT makes sense to me...give it FAST and you're in business...move 12" and fire the flamers, or move 18" and unload the girls.

Arco's & PE - i prefer dropping the Priest, but that's mostly cause he 'sucks'. If the Priest doesn't suck I'm okay with them keeping this requirement. Overall both should be given Fleet, and PE could become a MC with 2 or 3 wounds and an increased Toughness.

I'm probably deranged, but I'd like for Sisters to get Sister-crewed / piloted Senitnel Squadrons as a FA option with Hvy Bolter, Hvy Flamer and Multi-Melta options.

I'm hoping that they also manage to allow me to keep some sembelence of my allied Armoured Fists squads (2), Sentinel Squad (1x3), and my Leman Russ. I'm sure this isn't likely, but I have them, and I'd like to keep using the models I purchased for the army. I like the mixed Sisters & =][= feel.

Outside of that I'd love the Repressors as transport options, and I'd like another tanky element.

Adding a Frateris Militia might be a good place to stick the Priest...basic rabble with some upgrade options for Flamers or Eviserators.

A Special Character that allowed for an all Seraphim strike-force would be cool.

I'm sure at the end of the day we'll get the better end of the revision as things seem better at GW at the moment. Besides, we're a faith based force...just have faith and believe.

AndrewGPaul
13-01-2011, 20:56
No... I mean a fast non-tank vehicle, like an armored Humvee. Immolators only have a normal 12" move. The new vehicle should have the 'fast' movement rate.(ie upto 24")

EDIT --> It also should NOT be a skimmer. :)

Like the Tauros and Tauros Venator? Oops, that's an Imperial Guard vehicle, looks like they can't use that.

There's no real reason, IMO, why the Battle Sisters shouldn't use fairly standard Imperial designs. More to the point, it's too late. They're already well-established to use Rhino-variant vehicles (basically a Razorback and Whirlwind with some minor differences), so I don't see why that should change now.

What could be different is having them use their vehicles in a different way. There's probably room to tweak vehicle weaponry and doctrines to have them operate differently to the Marines. squads of Attack Bikes as fire support "fire brigade" units rather than heavy recon elements (similar to the difference between regular Guard use of Sentinels and the Elysians use of them), and using heavier vehicles in a "firebase" or support role rather than direct assault vehicles.

AlexHolker
13-01-2011, 21:12
Sisters of Antiquity are the most venerable, pious and faithful
sisters who are entrusted with their Order's few suits of Artificier
Armour bestowed upon each Priory by order of the Emperor himself.
I'm going to assume you don't actually mean "venerable" here.

Being "venerable" is not a good thing if you're a human soldier. Being "venerable" and having failed to be promoted to a leadership position without any mitigating circumstances is more likely to be a sign of incompetence than any positive trait.

And nobody is ever going to buy models of old ladies in Artificer armour that are for some reason equipped with whips.


There's probably room to tweak vehicle weaponry and doctrines to have them operate differently to the Marines... using heavier vehicles in a "firebase" or support role rather than direct assault vehicles.
No, there's not. Remember that two out of four Sisters vehicles in existence mount heavy flamers as standard.

Inquisitor_Eljer
13-01-2011, 22:28
I'm going to assume you don't actually mean "venerable" here.

Being "venerable" is not a good thing if you're a human soldier. Being "venerable" and having failed to be promoted to a leadership position without any mitigating circumstances is more likely to be a sign of incompetence than any positive trait.

And nobody is ever going to buy models of old ladies in Artificer armour that are for some reason equipped with whips.


Yes, I meant Venerable, but in a religous context given the psuedo-gothic themes and undertones.

In the Latin Rite of the Catholic Church, The Venerable, is the style used for a person who has been declared "heroic in virtue" during the investigation and process leading to possible canonization as a saint. Before a person is considered to be venerable, he or she must be declared as such by a proclamation, approved by the Pope, of having lived a life that was "heroic in virtue" – the virtues being the Theological Virtues of faith, hope, and charity and the Cardinal Virtues of prudence, justice, fortitude, and temperance. The next step is beatification, at which point the person is referred to as The Blessed, and finally canonization, at which point the person is referred to as Saint. Two modern and well-known examples of those who have been declared venerable are Popes John Paul II and Pius XII, who were both declared venerable by Pope Benedict XVI in December 2009, and who are likely to be beatified soon.

The 7-8th-century English monk St. Bede was referred to as being venerable soon after his death and, by tradition, is therefore often referred to as "the Venerable Bede" despite his also having been canonized. St Bede was the first person to be recorded as The Venerable.

These could be former Palantines who's missionary worlds have been lost, etc. Yes they're older, but they're also tougher and wiser, and are entrusted with some form of holy relics of 'old'...never meant we'd see Sisters with walkers, canes or wheel-chairs that are all wrinkled up...instead picture 'Sarah Conner'...late 30's, early 40's, athletic, and capable of kicking heretical butt.

AndrewGPaul
13-01-2011, 23:25
Not to mention, given Imperial medical science, they could well be 70, 80 or 90 and still kick bottom. Yarrick manages, after all, as does Cain.

AlexHolker
14-01-2011, 06:25
Not to mention, given Imperial medical science, they could well be 70, 80 or 90 and still kick bottom. Yarrick manages, after all, as does Cain.
But they don't kick ass because they are venerable, they do it because they're not venerable, despite their age.

Inquisitor_Eljer
14-01-2011, 15:10
But they don't kick ass because they are venerable, they do it because they're not venerable, despite their age.

Venerable doesn't equate to decrepit, it can simply mean experienced. A venerable soldier is one you should listen to 'cause he's been around and survived'.

You're hung up on your definition of the word and playing semantic games...if that's the only feedback you have on my 4 year old post I think we can agree to drop it.

Sai-Lauren
14-01-2011, 17:34
streamline faith.

I'm wondering if the Dark Eldar pain tokens are going to be the way Acts of Faith go.



seraphim squads get str 4 (as they use bolt pistols in cc), hand flamers are PW in cc, and Inferno pistols are PF, that should make them a decent cc unit.

Sorry, but Seraphim aren't really assault units, they're support/flanking units.



get daemonifuge in the codex, at least as background as I have waited for years to know what happened to her.

You mean Ephrael Stern ;)

She's possibly too close to the Living Saint, as well as being frighteningly powerful against Chaos/ Daemons, and underpowered against everyone else.

Maybe if GW ever do a "Legends of the Galaxy" codex, where all the special characters can be printed.

The real problem with the Sororitas can't really have loads of military equipment - they exist in a loophole that's allowed because of their usefulness, indoctrination and lack of really heavy kit.

Basically, if it could reasonably be needed for the defence of a cathedral or Sororitas Convent, or could be funded from the collection plate and pious industrialists, then they can have it.

Anyway, back to the wish list - my choice would be Inquisitor-style Repentia, basically Ronin Sororitas.

Oh, and a Sororitas Rhino kit.

streetsamurai
14-01-2011, 19:21
Hope that the SOB keep the same stats that they have now. Would hate it for them to be upgraded to marine stats, wich would be ridiculous politically corectness.

Hope they keep the faith system pretty much intact. It's a cool and unique aspect of the army, and I don't want it to be streamlined .

Keep a lot of inquisitor choice in the codex

streetsamurai
14-01-2011, 19:25
And it's not directly a SOB specific wshlisting

but

hope they make rules for chaos cultist forces and genestealer cult in the future, so the SOB have something to fight.

Toldavf
14-01-2011, 21:51
Basically, if it could reasonably be needed for the defence of a cathedral or Sororitas Convent, or could be funded from the collection plate and pious industrialists, then they can have it.


Thats one hell of a collection plate remember, the Eclisiachy is ridiculously wealthy :p

Mcbruce
14-01-2011, 22:02
Hope that the SOB keep the same stats that they have now. Would hate it for them to be upgraded to marine stats, wich would be ridiculous politically corectness.

Hope they keep the faith system pretty much intact. It's a cool and unique aspect of the army, and I don't want it to be streamlined .


Unlikely to change the statline as the current one represents perfectly well what the sisters are supposed to be - elite HUMAN soldiers, not super human or mutants, just regular people with the best training you can get.
As for the acts of faith, personally I would like to see them streamlined as i can never keep track of what phase they are used n or whether you need to roll over or under the squad size, plus the tally keeping of points, needs a change

duffybear1988
14-01-2011, 22:13
The current codex is fine and dandy but for a few teeny tiny problems -

1) Repentia - give these ladies, S6 rending chanswords, fearless, feel no pain, and drop their points cost down by 3 or 4.

2) Dominions - give them all stormbolters for free as standard, with the option of upgrading 4 to flamers or meltas.

3) Celestian Bodyguard - give me back my sisters hospitaller, dialogus and famulous as part of the retinue.

4) Retributors - give them the options for heavy flamers!

5) Bolt pistols and frags as standard on all celestians, dominions and sisters, characters.

6) Bring priests in line with their IG counterparts.

7) Do something with penitent engines and arcos flagellants to make them more survivable and useful.

8) Add the meatshields (I mean frateris militia).

9) Restrict the book of st lucius... its powerful, way too powerful.

10) Stick the repressor in.

11) maybe add in a crusader squad based on the inq retinue ones.


There isn't too much to change really, some extra tank busting stuff would be nice however.

Shamana
14-01-2011, 22:35
Being "venerable" is not a good thing if you're a human soldier. Being "venerable" and having failed to be promoted to a leadership position without any mitigating circumstances is more likely to be a sign of incompetence than any positive trait.

I'm not so sure of that last one bit. Leadership position is good for those that have more intellect and charisma. Someone who is just good at surviving and killing doesn't automatically make a good leader.

Vet.Sister
14-01-2011, 23:09
Tauros??? Tauros Venator??? :confused:
Don't play IG so that's how I missed these...
so much for my "new" stuff ideas. :rolleyes:


Thats one hell of a collection plate remember, the Eclisiachy is ridiculously wealthy

Generally the collection plate is held in the Sisters' off hand directly over the hand flamer...

Still Standing
14-01-2011, 23:14
The real problem with the Sororitas can't really have loads of military equipment - they exist in a loophole that's allowed because of their usefulness, indoctrination and lack of really heavy kit.

Basically, if it could reasonably be needed for the defence of a cathedral or Sororitas Convent, or could be funded from the collection plate and pious industrialists, then they can have it.

Remembering of course that the Imperium have Cathedral Planets, defended by Sororitas primarily. They can take almost anything, as the Leviathan picture in the current codex shows.

TheRatsInTheWalls
15-01-2011, 08:17
So, I would like to preface this by saying that I have never played with or against Sisters, so all of this comes from speculation and reading threads like this.
Here is a list of units and alterations which could increase versatility while keeping Sisters from being just female marines:
Fix Seraphim (duh).
Make Immolators the default transport for all Sisters.
Give Dominions' vehicles (Immolators, Repressors, and I like the idea of Valkyries but I understand how that wouldn't work) Scout. No the name doesn't fit their use, but the rule could effectively make them an interesting rapid-response Sister unit by outflanking or just getting closer to enemy tanks/hordes.
Add a buff unit with little to no direct killing power (whether the choir idea or some sort of battle shrine on a Rhino chassis).
Finally, retcon the fluff so that Living Saints are slightly more common and customizable. Please, no screaming that this makes no sense, as I have already read that argument. I'm re-presenting the idea because it offers Sisters a unique option among the imperial forces (the closest parallel I can think of are Deamon Princes and even that's a stretch) Make them good but expensive and they won't see ubiquitous use. Remember also that having the special character as an option still means every single Sisters player who wants to could have their saint, so their current, fluff-based rarity won't hold up on the table anyway.

Mcbruce
15-01-2011, 18:29
Make Immolators the default transport for all Sisters.


You do realise that immolators only have a 6 person transport capacity.

SabrX
15-01-2011, 18:45
No... I mean a fast non-tank vehicle, like an armored Humvee. Immolators only have a normal 12" move. The new vehicle should have the 'fast' movement rate.(ie upto 24")

EDIT --> It also should NOT be a skimmer. :)

I think all Sisters of Battle vehicles should be fast up to 18".


One of the strong attributes that sets Sisters of Battle apart from other 40k armies is being vicious in close range shooting. Not many armies can dish out volumes of bolters, templates, and meltas with potential 6's counting as AP1.

Making all vehicles fast and including a Repressor with front AV12 and multiple fire points will boost Sisters of Battle effectiveness in 5th ed. What Sisters need is a better delivery system to the front lines against the Long Fang/Razor Back spam or 9 Hive Guards common in meta-game.

Another thing I would like is siege vehicles for breaching defenses. Sisters of Battle are known to storm heretic fortresses. I want something like a Vindicator. Front AV13 and packs one hell of a punch, but it has to be flame based weapon thematic to Sisters of Battle. Perhaps a large blast Melta and maybe Inferno Cannon Sponsons.

AndrewGPaul
15-01-2011, 21:34
You do realise that immolators only have a 6 person transport capacity.

Rules can be changed. :) After all, when the Immolator was released, a standard Sisters of Battle squad was six women - an Immolator could act as the transport for a regular squad. Now for some reason, squads are ten women. If one number can be changed, so can another. :)

TheRatsInTheWalls
15-01-2011, 21:45
You do realise that immolators only have a 6 person transport capacity.

Nope, I had no idea. Repressors then.


Rules can be changed. :) After all, when the Immolator was released, a standard Sisters of Battle squad was six women - an Immolator could act as the transport for a regular squad. Now for some reason, squads are ten women. If one number can be changed, so can another. :)

Or this.

Axel
15-01-2011, 21:48
One of the strong attributes that sets Sisters of Battle apart from other 40k armies is being vicious in close range shooting.

At least its one of the armies that, while being vicious in close range with shooting, is bad in close combat (Orks can be vicious in both). The only thing FOR them in cc is the staying power thanks to the BoSL, remaining in combat until killed off.

Reducing the minimum size to 6 would imho be a good idea. This offers the chance to field lots of Immolators and gives a boost in objective based games (at a price for kill points).

magath
15-01-2011, 23:03
2 wrds for what I want:

Silas Hand.

I mean, how freaking awesome would he be in the codex? :D

Aside from that, I guess I'd want to see a move away from being T3 female marines.

What I would love to see is the following:

Include Arbites and an option for cyber mastiffs, or even packs of cyber mastiffs as fast attack options.

Sort out repentia so their not bondage nuns with chainsaws and make them more relevant and useful. Perhaps by letting them strike in I order or giving them an invulnerable save.

Let sisters take a unique special weapon or give them access to grenade launchers, which are assault and fit (a bit) with close range firepower theme thing.

Seraphim with descent of angels (sorry, couldnt resist)

Frateris Malitia with heavy stubbers as squad support weapons.

Seperate entries for priests, confessors and missionaries, like back in 3rd edition.

A riot control tank with assault ramps, frag charges and some sort of bonus to tank shock (Not a land raider, rhino chasis, just moved about a bit)

No orbital strikes

Arcoflaggelants to be made useful and less random.

Oprion for all seraphim army and all arbite army.

Still Standing
16-01-2011, 01:21
Arbites are absolutely nothing to do with Adeptus Sororitas, and should not be anywhere near a Codex: Adeptus Sororitas. "Riot control tanks" are police vehicles. Either replace the water cannons with heavy flamers and call them Repressors (that's what they were originally) or leave them out completely.

Gatsby
16-01-2011, 02:07
Arbites are absolutely nothing to do with Adeptus Sororitas, and should not be anywhere near a Codex: Adeptus Sororitas. "Riot control tanks" are police vehicles. Either replace the water cannons with heavy flamers and call them Repressors (that's what they were originally) or leave them out completely.

personally I think IST's should go in Grey Knights as Inquisitor retinue, and Arbites should go into Sisters of Battle as Inquisitor (or rename them Judges or whatever) retinue so that it just spreads out what type of Imperial army you can make, toss in the dogs as an upgrade kinda like fenrisian wolves so you can get K-9 units and you can make a decent arbites force.

Still Standing
16-01-2011, 02:11
Why would you have an Inquisitor in a Sisters of Battle army list? Get rid of all the crap, go back to something similar to the 2nd Ed book, which was called Codex: Sisters of Battle. No inquisition stuff.

Gatsby
16-01-2011, 02:24
Right, in Codex Sisters of Battle you only had Sisters of battle, but we aren't talking about Codex Sisters of Battle, we're talking about codex witch hunters. Should it go to a pure SoB dex then sure, but we don't know this yet and its far to early to know anything, that's why this is "wishlisting"

AlexHolker
16-01-2011, 04:15
Why would you have an Inquisitor in a Sisters of Battle army list? Get rid of all the crap, go back to something similar to the 2nd Ed book, which was called Codex: Sisters of Battle. No inquisition stuff.
This is penny wise, pound foolish behaviour. I'm in favour of rebooting the fluff with a Sisters focus, but what is there to be gained by removing such a useful unit as the Inquisitrix from the army list? Like I said before, it's an easy way to represent any kind of hangers-on from Arbite Judges (with a retinue of Power Maul/Suppression Shield Arbites), to Ecclesiarchy Lords, to Psychic Nulls, the kinds of things that make 40k interesting. Get rid of it, and you've saved a couple of pages. Whoop-de-do.

Charistoph
16-01-2011, 05:57
Arbites are absolutely nothing to do with Adeptus Sororitas, and should not be anywhere near a Codex: Adeptus Sororitas. "Riot control tanks" are police vehicles. Either replace the water cannons with heavy flamers and call them Repressors (that's what they were originally) or leave them out completely.

Actually, since the Sisters are mostly focused on dealing with Heretics and Mutants, they are focused inwardly on the Imperium as the Chamber Militant of the Ecclisiarchy, and only have a secondary focus on forces outside the Imperium. Due to this internal focus, they would rely more on the policing forces of the Imperium than any other Chamber Militant. Just like the Grey Knights have the Inquisitorial Storm Troopers, Space Marines have Imperial Guard, the Sisters will have the Arbites as their back up.

But by no means should the Arbites be a main focus of the book, but rather there to fill out and augment the army by plugging the holes that just don't fit with how the Sororitas work, such as stealth, patrols, and investigations.

Still Standing
16-01-2011, 08:37
The Sisters of Battle will have implied tasks to Liaise with the Arbites, but in no way do they work hand in hand. They will be in the same place sometimes, but I would suggest that if Arbites are in the area then the situation doesn't call for power armoured nuns carrying 1" rocket launchers, except in the most dire and unusual circumstances.

Angelwing
16-01-2011, 08:55
Rules can be changed. :) After all, when the Immolator was released, a standard Sisters of Battle squad was six women
Not so. It was 5. You could add 2 more sisters, one with a heavy weapon and one with a special weapon. The immolator's transport capacity was 5.

But as you say, rules can be changed.;)

No, I don't want immolators to become default transports instead of rhino's. I have 5 rhino mounted squads!

AlexHolker
16-01-2011, 09:14
The Sisters of Battle will have implied tasks to Liaise with the Arbites, but in no way do they work hand in hand. They will be in the same place sometimes, but I would suggest that if Arbites are in the area then the situation doesn't call for power armoured nuns carrying 1" rocket launchers, except in the most dire and unusual circumstances.
I think you're underestimating what kind of force the Arbites are. Among other things, they're supposed to be able to hold off entire renegade planetary defence forces while reinforcements arrive. They might not use power armour, but they do use homing rounds that are better than a bolter at range, tanks and entire squads equipped with power mauls.


No, I don't want immolators to become default transports instead of rhino's. I have 5 rhino mounted squads!
Neither do I. Repressors are cooler.

JaqTaar
16-01-2011, 10:00
I think you're underestimating what kind of force the Arbites are. Among other things, they're supposed to be able to hold off entire renegade planetary defence forces while reinforcements arrive. They might not use power armour, but they do use homing rounds that are better than a bolter at range, tanks and entire squads equipped with power mauls.
While that is all true (and I'm a big fan of Arbites myself), they are a seperate organisation from both the Inquisition and the Ecclesiarchy. They often perform similar tasks and work together, but there are no formal ties. I don't think GW would give them more than a passing reference like in the current codex.

As long as Inquisitors, Acolytes, Crusaders, Stormtroopers and such are in and have the equipment options to make them useable as counts-as Arbites, I'm happy. There's no need for more Arbites presence than that in a Sisters/Witchhunters codex.

Vet.Sister
16-01-2011, 12:30
Let sisters take a unique special weapon or give them access to grenade launchers, which are assault and fit (a bit) with close range firepower theme thing.


Option for all seraphim army and all arbite army.

I was always shouted down for wanting grenade launchers for Dominions etc... glad to see someone else thinks the idea is reasonable.

I wouldn't mind seeing an all Seraphim strike force. :evilgrin:

And if they don't include Arbites in the WH Codex.... what century are they going to finally release rules for them?!? I think a squad of Arbites (with options, wargear, etc) could be tucked away in the WH codex without too much fuss and viola! Arbites for everyone who'd like a unit or two... And if they're troops? perhaps an Arbite army? Just need an Arbite HQ and off we go!

AndrewGPaul
16-01-2011, 12:44
Right, in Codex Sisters of Battle you only had Sisters of battle, but we aren't talking about Codex Sisters of Battle, we're talking about codex witch hunters. Should it go to a pure SoB dex then sure, but we don't know this yet and its far to early to know anything, that's why this is "wishlisting"

Funnily enough, this thread is called SoB wishlisting. Take your Inquisition elsewhere. :) Wanting a purely Sisters of Battle army list is just as valid a wish as anything else in this thread.


And if they don't include Arbites in the WH Codex.... what century are they going to finally release rules for them?!? I think a squad of Arbites (with options, wargear, etc) could be tucked away in the WH codex without too much fuss and viola! Arbites for everyone who'd like a unit or two... And if they're troops? perhaps an Arbite army? Just need an Arbite HQ and off we go!

They're a better fit for an Imperial Guard army. Stick an article in White Dwarf and voilą.

Charistoph
16-01-2011, 17:41
Maybe so, maybe not. The point is that if we don't want to tread a lot on SM, GK, or IG toes too much, there is going to have to be some mixture of types. As I said earlier, an Arbites presence will add a lot to the codex, provided it doesn't overwhelm it. They can fill the roles in the codex for which Sisters are known to not have the temperament for. Sure, we could is the Inquisition for it, but there really isn't that big of a difference when you boil it down between a Inquisitor and Arbites presence, gameplay-wise, and most of those differences are just the equipment and psyker powers, which were already different between WH and DH to begin with.

Inquisitor Gabriel Ashe
16-01-2011, 18:33
Inquisitors must be in the codex. Why? 'Cause I like them.

Sai-Lauren
17-01-2011, 13:02
Thats one hell of a collection plate remember, the Eclisiachy is ridiculously wealthy

And even with local craftsmen working for little more than a blessing because it's for the church, maybe 95% of what's collected will be spent on building upkeep and general Ecclesiarchy running costs, funding missionary groups to backwater worlds, paying for crusades (including the hiring of mercenaries) and so on.

Plus, how much do people throw into the plate? Some rich and pious people might make large donations, but most will be in the order of a few low value coins because it's all they can spare, and in some cases, they can't spare it, but their adherence to the faith demands it.

Some dioceses might have to take on pay-per-blessing work (lead prayers for a good harvest, with a tithe of the crops next year, or bless a freighter's crew for a trouble free voyage, with a fee based on the value of the goods carried and so on) to help pay the bills.

And I can imagine a donations board outside a local church, but instead of the usual thermometer getting filled up with donations, it's a flamer fuel tank. ;)



Remembering of course that the Imperium have Cathedral Planets, defended by Sororitas primarily. They can take almost anything, as the Leviathan picture in the current codex shows.

See above, plus as I intimated earlier, the Sororitas could very easily be chosen to be shut down by the Inquisition, especially if they started collecting heavy military equipment.

Still Standing
17-01-2011, 13:38
Although technically the Inquisition could shut down anything they want, with the exception of the High Lords, in reality they could not, as to upset the status quo of the Imperium so much, and especially with it's only church, which is universally followed, would be tantamount to suicide, and would definitely start a civil war.

Layla
17-01-2011, 14:32
One word. Plastics.
More sister oriented fluff would be good too. I also like the idea of rapid fire plus assault. Maybe subtract 1 from the bs if the do so and if they cant reach the enemy, force them to go as close as they can.

Axel
17-01-2011, 14:54
... as I intimated earlier, the Sororitas could very easily be chosen to be shut down by the Inquisition, especially if they started collecting heavy military equipment.

Just as the Adeptus Astartes or Mechanicus are theoretically totally independent from the rest of the Empire, an Arbites can try a Sororita for crimes, and the Ecclesiarchy has the right to try even an Inquisitor for heresy. In fact all that matters is who can backup his claim better - and I do not mean arguments.

Naturally any openly hostile action would have repercussions, and this is nothing a lower grade will take upon himself lightly. Chances are that the Inquisitor who tries and kills a local prioress will find himself tried by another Inquisitor for steeging up unrest as readily as by an Ecclesiarchical taskforce for inproper behaviour. The beauty of the Imperium is that all work together to further the cause of humanity!

Sai-Lauren
17-01-2011, 16:03
Although technically the Inquisition could shut down anything they want, with the exception of the High Lords, in reality they could not, as to upset the status quo of the Imperium so much, and especially with it's only church, which is universally followed, would be tantamount to suicide, and would definitely start a civil war.

and



In fact all that matters is who can backup his claim better - and I do not mean arguments.

Indeed - remember that the Imperium isn't really a single united state, it's a loose amalgam of groups held together by varying interpretations of religion based around the Emperor, vaguely common genetic roots and fear. The Ecclesiarchy don't really get on with the Adeptus Mechanicus and Adeptus Astartes in particular.

But that said, if the Ecclesiarchy were looking like they were going to have a significant military force under their command in the shape of the Sororitas, and potentially becoming a threat to the Imperium, the Inquisition would step in, deal with it and sort out the consequences later, plus they'd have some pretty powerful allies to help them do it (the AM and AA), both militarily and politically.

Anyway, it wouldn't be the Ecclesiarchy that would be shut down, just the Adepta Sororitas and a few sacrificial bishops that the Eccelsiarchy can throw out to appease the Inqusition and make it look like they're clearing house. After all, there's already the effective mandate for it (the whole "No men under arms" decree), but because of their usefulness to the Ordo Hereticus in particular, that's overlooked. But, annoy the Inquisition too much, and they might start looking at things in slightly more detail. ;)

So no civil war.

Charistoph
17-01-2011, 16:36
Yes, because a civil war about such things has never happened before... oh, wait.

Yes, the ability for one branch of the Imperium to amass sufficient power to completely overthrow and conquer the others is severely hampered, but that doesn't mean it can't happen without proper preparation and connections.

That being said, I don't think that Leman Russ or Land Raider level of equipment is proper for the Sisters on their own. There are still ways to include them into the codex, but it's probably not the best direction to take at the codex level.

AndrewGPaul
17-01-2011, 21:47
Plus, how much do people throw into the plate? Some rich and pious people might make large donations, but most will be in the order of a few low value coins because it's all they can spare, and in some cases, they can't spare it, but their adherence to the faith demands it.

I don't think you get the choice, frankly. 10% of your income goes to the Ecclesiarchy. Don't pay, get dragged away as a debtor and a heretic.

Teufelskerl
18-01-2011, 04:04
I think we may be getting bogged down in arguing over what should or shouldn't be included in the codex for fluff reasons. Wouldn't we all rather have the option of building our army the way we want it be, the way we imagine it should look?

If we want Inquisitors, wouldn't it be nice if we had the options necessary to use them as a core? If we want a pure SoB army, it'd be great if the codex allowed us to create a competative army. If we'd prefer a Ecclesiastical themed army, what if the list allowed us to do that?

And who among us would object if all of those armies were actually able to win games?

I want GW to give us choices. Effective choices. Is there anyone who objects to this?


Frederich

Still Standing
18-01-2011, 06:51
The thing is, if you have three areas to a Codex (SoB, Ecclesiastical stuff and Inquisitorial stuff) that is too much for one book and you end up with none of it being particularly good, like the current book. If it's limited to just SoB then maybe they will do a reasonable job.

AlexHolker
18-01-2011, 07:04
The thing is, if you have three areas to a Codex (SoB, Ecclesiastical stuff and Inquisitorial stuff) that is too much for one book and you end up with none of it being particularly good, like the current book. If it's limited to just SoB then maybe they will do a reasonable job.
I agree the fluff section should be devoted to the Sisters of Battle, but that should not prevent them from giving a few key outside units a page in the bestiary and an entry in the army list.

Sai-Lauren
18-01-2011, 10:03
I don't think you get the choice, frankly. 10% of your income goes to the Ecclesiarchy. Don't pay, get dragged away as a debtor and a heretic.
Depends how much you earn - 10% of not much is still not much, and I'm sure they'd take menial service to the church in lieu of money.

Besides which, how do they know how much you earn? They're not the Administratum tax records department - and the Administratum wouldn't allow them anything like that kind of access.



The thing is, if you have three areas to a Codex (SoB, Ecclesiastical stuff and Inquisitorial stuff) that is too much for one book and you end up with none of it being particularly good, like the current book. If it's limited to just SoB then maybe they will do a reasonable job.

Trouble is, all that stuff's in the existing codex, and people will be upset if it's removed, and models are rendered obsolete - unless GW also ship an Inquisitorial Ordos book and an Ecclesiarchy Crusade of Faith book as well.

Symrivven
18-01-2011, 11:36
The thing is, if you have three areas to a Codex (SoB, Ecclesiastical stuff and Inquisitorial stuff) that is too much for one book and you end up with none of it being particularly good, like the current book. If it's limited to just SoB then maybe they will do a reasonable job.

Actually the new Dark eldar codex showed that you can do exactly that. They have 3 area's, Kabals, which cults and haemonculus covens. If you want you can focus on just one of these parts and still have a competative army. Or you can just mix and match whatever units you prefer. Certainly the totally mixed list will be slightly better than a list focusing only on one part, but not by much and you will certainly not nerf your self a lot by doing so.

Finally there is always the possibility of conversions an writing your own fluf. If a codex has a lot of diverse units you can adept their style and fluff (not the rules) to your own needs. You want to use stormtroopers in your pure SoB army sure, convert them a bit and call them SoB initiates.

Some people might want to argue that for example kabals and which cults are more related to each other than eccesiarchy and SoB, but I think that's a rather subjective point.

Vet.Sister
18-01-2011, 12:21
I think we may be getting bogged down in arguing over what should or shouldn't be included in the codex for fluff reasons. Wouldn't we all rather have the option of building our army the way we want it be, the way we imagine it should look?

If we want Inquisitors, wouldn't it be nice if we had the options necessary to use them as a core? If we want a pure SoB army, it'd be great if the codex allowed us to create a competative army. If we'd prefer a Ecclesiastical themed army, what if the list allowed us to do that?

And who among us would object if all of those armies were actually able to win games?

I want GW to give us choices. Effective choices. Is there anyone who objects to this?


Frederich

I agree, the Battle Sisters will have the kit/wargear that GW designers think they should have to make an army. I also wish for a Battle Sisters army with more options! Right now our main tactic is the rhino-rush drive by. While effective, it does get old after a while. I'd love to be able to field the strike-force listed in the Citadel Journal and have an even chance of winning against all other armies. (remember! this IS a wishlist!)

I think the HQ Inquisitor choice and retinue should stay, perhaps with the Inquisitor able to include some StormTroopers as TROOPS choices. Add some Ecclesiarchy command choices like Cardinals and Missionaries, but don't tell me I can't have a Canoness lead my army... or worse, don't make the Canoness obviously inferior to these new choices. :mad:

Neither Frederich nor I want "a giant red easy button" army or codex, however, we also don't want to face "severe limitations" to an all Sisters army like the C:WH designer admitted to when asked about that possibility. :mad::mad::mad:

AndrewGPaul
18-01-2011, 12:23
Depends how much you earn - 10% of not much is still not much, and I'm sure they'd take menial service to the church in lieu of money.

Besides which, how do they know how much you earn? They're not the Administratum tax records department - and the Administratum wouldn't allow them anything like that kind of access.

The Adeptus Administratum doesn't give a monkey's about individual citizens' income. They deal on a planetary basis. Enforcer shows that the Ecclesiarchy has quite a strong connection with nominally 'secular' planetary government agencies. Once the Ecclesiarchy convinces the Governor that failure to pay tithes is an act of heresy for both the citizenry and the Governor, I imagine the Governor will make sure that the Priesthood gets access to the tax records. :)

If a population is sufficiently pious, even that's unnecessary = people will pay voluntarily, either becuase they're devout or because their neighbours or family members are devout and will inform on them if they don't.

Spiney Norman
18-01-2011, 14:15
get this image in your head. Imperial Guardsmen taken off the front line because of severe injuries to medical facilities then Ordo Hospitaller sisters conformting them like WW2 nurses and some female doctors.

that's the Ordo Hospitaller in a nutshell, Missions Nurses helping people for goodwill.. You can at present represent them using Inquisitor minions, but they cant "fix up" people like Painboys or Apothecaries

Yes, yes, clearly the hospitaller orders would not accompany the troops to the front line any more than Francis Nightingale would have accompanied the charge of the light brigade but I think its perfectly reasonable that any militant order would maintain a corps of medic equivilents to patch up their wounded on the go, especially as it is common practice in the Astartes and the Imperial Guard, I fail to see why the Sororitas would be averse to the idea of field medicine alone of all the Imperium's military forces.


I'd love to see a 36" Melta "cannon" (Just Heavy 1, no blast) or a Flamestorm Cannon Tank to replace the Immolator in Heavy Support.

I'd love such a tank to be made an option IN ADDITION to the Exorcist, I certainly don't want them to replace the Exorcist, I'd very much like to be able to use both my lovingly painted Exorcists long after the book is released, in fact I'd be much obliged if they'd allow us to take squadrons of Exorcists like the IG Russ.

Sai-Lauren
18-01-2011, 14:37
The Adeptus Administratum doesn't give a monkey's about individual citizens' income. They deal on a planetary basis.

The Terran head office may do, but the individual local offices cannot - even the one with responsibility for Terra.

Kind of like the head of the Inland Revenue makes sure on the governments behalf that the appropriate amount of income tax and customs duty are paid, but he doesn't go and collect it himself, it's down to the local tax offices, and customs and immigration posts to do that.



Enforcer shows that the Ecclesiarchy has quite a strong connection with nominally 'secular' planetary government agencies. Once the Ecclesiarchy convinces the Governor that failure to pay tithes is an act of heresy for both the citizenry and the Governor, I imagine the Governor will make sure that the Priesthood gets access to the tax records.

What the planetary governor wants, and what the local head of the Administratum office allows them to have are two very separate things - and I'm sure the Administratum have severe punishments for filing papers with a staple in them rather than a paper clip, let alone allowing members of outside agencies to look into their files.

Plus Hydraphur may well be a special case - if the Navy were allowed dirtside, things would probably be very different.



If a population is sufficiently pious, even that's unnecessary = people will pay voluntarily, either becuase they're devout or because their neighbours or family members are devout and will inform on them if they don't.

And even then, they're still not going to be able to pay what they don't have.

Plus those extremely pious worlds would likely have a lot of churches, big cathedrals and so on, which means the Ecclesiarchy are going to be spending a lot on maintaining them - which they're not going to be able to spend on arms.

Best case would be the head of House Cawdor or a similar devout group dies and bequeaths a large sum of money to the church to fund a crusade to conquer specific worlds (with the provision that House Cawdor are the ones who control all the trade into those worlds for the next few hundred years). That might be enough to "persaude" someone high up to found some Guard regiments to be sent and possibly even some Marines, pay for a lot of food, guns and ammuntion for whatever Frateris Militia you can round up and point in the right direction, and hire mercenaries to provide a veteran corps - the Crusade of Faith type army I mentioned - but not to buy tanks and APCs, and certainly not enough to maintain them long term (for which you'd basically need the AM).



Yes, yes, clearly the hospitaller orders would not accompany the troops to the front line any more than Francis Nightingale would have accompanied the charge of the light brigade but I think its perfectly reasonable that any militant order would maintain a corps of medic equivilents to patch up their wounded on the go, especially as it is common practice in the Astartes and the Imperial Guard, I fail to see why the Sororitas would be averse to the idea of field medicine alone of all the Imperium's military forces.

Agreed, the Orders Hospitalier would assist the Munitorium's Medicae - and they may additionally have combat training in case their field hospital comes under attack or to deal with problem patients.

But IMO, rather than medical corpswomen, the Orders Militant would all be given basic field first aid training as part of their initial vows as a member of the Sororitas (same as the Orders Hospitalier and Dialogus would get some basic combat training), before they get passed on to a specific order.

And don't forget that even though they don't have Black Carapace, Sororitas may still have some of the blood shunts into their Power Armour's life support systems to help handle injuries, remove toxins and the like.

Inquisitor Gabriel Ashe
18-01-2011, 17:45
I'd love such a tank to be made an option IN ADDITION to the Exorcist, I certainly don't want them to replace the Exorcist, I'd very much like to be able to use both my lovingly painted Exorcists long after the book is released, in fact I'd be much obliged if they'd allow us to take squadrons of Exorcists like the IG Russ.

I run two Exorcists. :) Sadly I haven't painted them up yet, but I'm slowly working on it.

brother-kormak
14-01-2012, 22:59
lets hope it pans out the way we are all wishing..

Astraeos
14-01-2012, 23:53
Was it necessary to resurrect the thread just to say that? Excuse my rudeness here but it seems unnecessary to make a statement that we're all probably thinking on a thread that hasn't seen any new posts for what must be well over six months.

Still Standing
15-01-2012, 00:55
Woah, this thread is a year old already... Doesn't seem that long... But yeah, threadomancy = bad... Apparantly.

IcedAnimals
15-01-2012, 08:44
Woah, this thread is a year old already... Doesn't seem that long... But yeah, threadomancy = bad... Apparantly.

It isn't always bad. Sometimes posting an idea or thought in a month old thread is better than creating an entirely new topic for the same thing. Who knows your idea might even have been discussed slightly and you can bring up other points with quotes for the conversation.

However when you bring back a year old thread that is so old a new rule set for the discussion has already come out, pretty much everything in it is so old and outdated that it can no longer be used. Especially when the resurrection is a single sentence that adds nothing to the discussion at all.

Souleater
15-01-2012, 08:51
Aren't most SoB players wishing GW hadn't brought out the new codex in WD? :(

Still Standing
15-01-2012, 09:03
Aren't most SoB players wishing GW hadn't brought out the new codex in WD? :(

Pretty much.

MikeyB
15-01-2012, 10:02
Aren't most SoB players wishing GW hadn't brought out the new codex in WD? :(

Sorry no idea what you're talking about! Lalalalalalalalala! I can't hear you! Lalalalalalalala!

Dervos
15-01-2012, 16:08
Aren't most SoB players wishing GW hadn't brought out the new codex in WD? :(

As a new player to SOB who's never read the Witch Hunters codex, I'm ok with the WD codex. I like a lot of the units but it feels like what it is, a incomplete codex. The options feel lacking considering the plethora of upgrades I've seen in other armies codexes. Maybe that's just how sisters were the in past but I heard a lot of their alliance units were cut out and given to grey knights.

Still I feel enthusiastic about collecting a sob army to play with. :)

Axel
15-01-2012, 17:16
Aren't most SoB players wishing GW hadn't brought out the new codex in WD? :(

I just pretend it did not happen. My SOBs still have faith (in a real new codex, or at least in their old one...)

Actually I played the new list several times, always to good effect. But its not the same anymore...