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Art Is Resistance
09-01-2011, 13:57
The following came through the email the other day:

From: Adam Snook
To: Various tournament / event organisors
Sent:Friday, January 07, 2011 11:27 AM
Subject:Warhammer World in 2011!
Good morning everyone.

If you have received this e-mail then it means that you have booked an event with us at Warhammer World in the past year. We are giving you guys the opportunity to do the same thing for 2011 & 2012. Things are changing in Warhammer World and we can now do more to help and support your events.

Please read the attached document and give us a call if there are any dates in 2011 or 2012 you would like to be set side for your events and any extras you require.

Thanks in advance,

Adam Snook
Warhammer World Events and Activities Team Leader
Games Workshop, Nottingham
Tel: 0115 9004234
Mob: 07826871013

The Galaxy is the Emperorís. Anyone or anything that
Challenges this claim is an enemy who must be destroyed!

Attached to the email was this:
Gaming Hall Guide (http://s180.photobucket.com/albums/x284/the_steventons/?action=view&current=Gaminghallhireguide.jpg)

It's a pretty big move by GW to start charging for the use of the room, and not one that wasn't expected. But the prices are astronomical! Considering that the room doesn't take that much to set up from the 'standard' format that is used day in day out, I can't fathom why they want to charge so much - unless it is to dissuade tournaments other than those ran by GW to be held there.

Still, I know of a large amount of events that have decided, if not have already, moved to other venues such as Maelstrom where they'll be made to feel more welcome (not to mention better food, more assistance and a decent service from the on site team).

One more way for GW to screw over their faithful customers, or a valid, and justified move?

Discuss!

Chaos and Evil
09-01-2011, 14:06
One more way for GW to screw over their faithful customers, or a valid, and justified move?
*shrug*

I thought most of the tournaments had decided to abandon WW as their rules have been becoming more restrictive in any case?


I can see this being counter-productive for GW, as less events being held there might well mean less takings for Bugman's than they'll be making back in fees for the events that do remain at WW.

Herne the hunter
09-01-2011, 14:15
Well, I guess they'll just lower the prices in Bugman's to compensate...

...Oh.

yabbadabba
09-01-2011, 14:31
Its part of the new WW manager's policies (not the store btw, the events venue), along with the totally ending of any playing of games outside of 40K, WFB and LotR in Warhammer World. It is all about the money, and a certain degree of arslikhan as well.

eldargal
09-01-2011, 15:17
I never go to Warhammer World (having everyone ogle you the whole time gets old fast), but I do think this is a mistake on GWs part. Mind you, its not like free venues are common these days.

Earthbeard
09-01-2011, 15:20
The Prices don;t seem that bad to me, but I've got no real frame of reference to base it on, just my aging, and often addled brain.

RayvenQ
09-01-2011, 15:47
Doesn't seem all that much, £5/£8 per table for 1/2 days, if even only one match is played on each table, thats £2.50/£4 a player. People will spend way more than that on just getting there.

IJW
09-01-2011, 15:52
It's a shock if you're used to booking it for free, but for gaming tables with terrain that's not exactly expensive.

I actually thought that tournaments that booked WW were charged something like that anyway!

EDIT - per-game, that works out much cheaper than our club night subs.

AndrewGPaul
09-01-2011, 17:07
Is that for a whole day? If so, three quid a head seems pretty decent to me. I've just paid a tenner to go to Salute this year, and all that buys me is the opportunity to spend more money once I get indoors. :)

Of course, there's also the possibility that the usual hordes of knuckle-dragging apes cause an appreciable amount of damage to the gaming tables which need repairing, and the like. Making people pay to use something often means they're more likely to treat it with respect.

maximu160490
09-01-2011, 17:33
so there goes the BloodBowl 2011 then......

well 55quid was a lot anyway for a 2 day tourney - most are about 25quid often including food

spikyjames
09-01-2011, 18:01
£430 for a 2 day event which includes 64 tables with all the scenery already set-up and the added facilities ain't that bad at all.

@Maximu160490, Was BB an independent event? If so, does it not actually make you wonder where all the cash went to?

James

Grimtuff
09-01-2011, 18:14
Its part of the new WW manager's policies (not the store btw, the events venue), along with the totally ending of any playing of games outside of 40K, WFB and LotR in Warhammer World. It is all about the money, and a certain degree of arslikhan as well.

Do you have any confirmation for this? As incidentally I and a few other mates were going up there this wednesday to play some games, 1 of which was Epic Armageddon. Bit of a bummer if this is the case. :(

Bodysnatcher
09-01-2011, 18:39
The price is actually quite cheap. But compared to free any amount seems like a lot.

maximu160490
09-01-2011, 18:45
@spikejames

I think when i went 2years ago it was the last Specialist games thing games workshop ran. It was all done by them with a little NAF support for refs and sanctioning.

if it ends up a NAF thing this year methinks it will just be in a pub

Charax
09-01-2011, 18:48
Doesn't bode well for the annual Inquisitor Grand Tournament.

The prices seem reasonable for larger events, but I do think there should be brackets for 1-20 tables as well. Lumping anything from 1-40 into the same bracket effectively prices out many of the smaller events.

Also if I was putting down £200-300 as the organiser of an event I'd want them to be a LOT more specific about what exactly I get for that. Table sizes, terrain setup etc (If £200 gets me 40 fixed-size tables that I can have decked out in themed terrain and reorganised into 10 larger tables by GW staff before the event starts, then fair enough). "You get to be in Warhammer World and pay for drinks at Bugman's" is not exactly a compelling sales pitch.

Any other decent gaming venues in Nottingham?

Grimtuff
09-01-2011, 18:50
Any other decent gaming venues in Nottingham?

There's Maelstrom Games just down the road in Mansfield.

Chaos and Evil
09-01-2011, 18:51
There's Maelstrom Games just down the road in Mansfield.
Which is already a better venue than Warhammer World, and soon to become *much* better when they finish adding their 50ish extra gaming tables.

yabbadabba
09-01-2011, 19:20
Do you have any confirmation for this? As incidentally I and a few other mates were going up there this wednesday to play some games, 1 of which was Epic Armageddon. Bit of a bummer if this is the case. :(I'd ring mate. I don't think its been implemeted yet but it has been on the cards.

yabbadabba
09-01-2011, 19:21
Which is already a better venue than Warhammer World, I think you better expand on that as it is a touch subjective

Chaos and Evil
09-01-2011, 20:06
I think you better expand on that as it is a touch subjective
- Large number of gaming tables (More than all but the largest events will need at any rate).
- Excellent range of terrain (Not just at 28mm but also 15mm and 6mm) all made and painted to a good standard.
- Cheaper drink prices at the bar.
- Ability to purchase a greater range of miniatures and modelling supplies (Not just Citadel) at the shop at a discounted price.
- The two tournaments I've been to there provided good quality food (Not sure who organised the catering though)
- Eye of the Storm don't charge for table use, whilst WW now charges hundreds of pounds.

About all Warhammer World has over it is the Citadel Miniatures Hall, which if you've seen once you've seen it all.

neXus6
09-01-2011, 20:15
Same old yabba always defending GW to the hilt when someone suggests something else is better even when he's just said "It is all about the money, and a certain degree of arslikhan as well."

It's kinda cute.

:p

Chaos and Evil
09-01-2011, 20:38
Same old yabba always defending GW to the hilt when someone suggests something else is better even when he's just said "It is all about the money, and a certain degree of arslikhan as well."

It's kinda cute.

:p

I think his request for elaboration was quite understandable.

Art Is Resistance
09-01-2011, 21:02
To just clarify:
£430 to setup tables that are already there and for what facilities? A countdown timer? Most tournaments get by with just announcing 25/15/10 minutes left!

A lot of the tournaments I know of that were held there dontated all the money made form the events to charity - those events would now be in a position where they'll no longer be able to do that and stay at WhW - not such a good move on GW's part surely?

Torpedo Vegas
09-01-2011, 21:05
Huh, pricing is a bit high, but surely there have to be other venues other than WW near that area? Its GW being GW, I don't see whats the big deal.

lijah_cuu
09-01-2011, 21:26
For tournaments and so on I don't see it as that big a deal. Organisers will only have to add on a few quid to the ticket price to cover it. I see this as only affecting large tournaments so if you want to go up with just a few friends and have you own little tournament they shouldn't be bothered.

toonboy78
09-01-2011, 21:33
£430 for 64 tables over 2 days works sounds cheap to me.

if it is a 6 game tourney that works out to be less than £1.20 per game, so for table hire that is less than £7 per person for 2 days of gaming (in a fake castle courtyard....the coolest part of WW)

not too sure what the issue is

yabbadabba
09-01-2011, 22:15
- Large number of gaming tables (More than all but the largest events will need at any rate).
- Excellent range of terrain (Not just at 28mm but also 15mm and 6mm) all made and painted to a good standard.
- Cheaper drink prices at the bar.
- Ability to purchase a greater range of miniatures and modelling supplies (Not just Citadel) at the shop at a discounted price.
- The two tournaments I've been to there provided good quality food (Not sure who organised the catering though)
About all Warhammer World has over it is the Citadel Miniatures Hall, which if you've seen once you've seen it all. Apart from the catering (which has always been **** at WhW) I think its all horses for courses mate. Its certainly a better venue for playing FoW :D

Same old yabba always defending GW to the hilt when someone suggests something else is better even when he's just said "It is all about the money, and a certain degree of arslikhan as well." I think you need to reread this, and find somewhere where I have defended GW to the hilt (as opposed to arguing to a balanced perspective) as well as taking this into account:
I think his request for elaboration was quite understandable.. Cheers fella.

WhW looks awesome but is always tainted by GW Corp values and behaviours. What I mean by this is its almost Disney-esque in its feel and approach. Also a mate of mine who used to work at GW told me of an occasion where a chap was playing 40K with Darleks and Dr Who. GW had a "GW miniatures only" policy at the time, but some staff didn't recognise the figs. While there was a lot of clucking and scratching of heads while my mate went up and had half an hours worth of fun watching and reading the house rules. While I appreciate that GW have to present their best at all times, over the years this has meant for me a gradual erosion of the magic and purpose of the place. In addition I have never felt comfortable playing there. Awesome terrain at times, but it has never felt as good as home or a club, never as relaxed or informal as one.

MarcoSkoll
11-01-2011, 01:47
Doesn't bode well for the annual Inquisitor Grand Tournament.
It certainly doesn't. For a group of a couple of dozen who might need maybe 8 tables, £200 is totally excessive. It doesn't need a countdown timer, it doesn't need a sound system, and it doesn't need a member of the events team on standby.
Sure, it's reasonable enough to ask that kind of fee if someone wants to monopolise a significant fraction of the hall for the day, but what about the dozen or so mates who want to turn up and know there's actually going to be tables waiting for them rather than being turned away after a several hour journey?

For an event that was held at GW mostly as a courtesy, I expect it's going to end up somewhere else in future.

~~~~~

Unless they actually build in a lower bracket (perhaps there is a lower limit to who has to pay, but it doesn't say there is), I expect that GW are going to find that this is going to discourage use of WHW for gaming, and then hit them with a distinct drop in profits in the WHW store and Bugmans.

The gaming hall should be part loss-leader and part living advertisement. If you've got a whole load of gamers in a room where they're being exposed to armies, ideas and even other games from your range that they'd perhaps never even considered before while standing in a themed hall just a hundred feet from your flagship store - well, I may not have a degree in marketing, but I'd bet it's a lot better for sales than if those people decided to hire a church hall in Luton instead.

enyoss
11-01-2011, 02:30
Sure, it's reasonable enough to ask that kind of fee if someone wants to monopolise a significant fraction of the hall for the day, but what about the dozen or so mates who want to turn up and know there's actually going to be tables waiting for them rather than being turned away after a several hour journey?


I'm guessing there will still be no charge for this kind of thing. I expect they'll allow you to call up on the morning to check if there are any free tables (i.e. ones not officially booked) and just let you use them. I mean, there is no way they can expect the small time gamers to pay those prices.

It's probably like restaurant hire: turning up with a handful of people on the day isn't a problem, but forcing them to turn away other business because they're holding half of the floor space on your behalf is going to cost. It probably would have been `nicer' to do this via a deposit alone, but the proposed costs are hardly extortionate given the fact that they supply everything you need to play.

CaliforniaGamer
11-01-2011, 03:03
I have no point of reference per se, but if they have added cost in personnel catering to big events, then it seems cheap to me...

bigger ? not being in the UK: Doesnt WW host its OWN events? Tournaments, mega battles etc?

Im confused, I would expect it to be a scaled up version of Warhammer Bunker site that hosts events all the time.

MarcoSkoll
11-01-2011, 03:23
I'm guessing there will still be no charge for this kind of thing. I expect they'll allow you to call up on the morning to check if there are any free tables (i.e. ones not officially booked) and just let you use them.
I'm not expecting them to start charging for pick-up games, but "ring up on the morning you're going in" is not good enough most of the time.

Particularly when you've only got a small pool of people who are likely to turn up, planning usually has to start months in advance so a date can be picked for as many people as possible, give time for people to get their schedules free on the day, plan transport, etc. Some of our Inquisitor regulars have to bribe workmates to swap shifts, and others have flown down from Scotland.
I'm one of the ones with a shorter journey and even then, I have to get up and start getting ready 5 or 6 hours (depending on which trains I'm getting) before WHW is even open, so ringing them isn't an option.

Unless you live very near Nottingham, turning up at WHW is not some kind of flash mob - the organisation has to start months beforehand, and without being able to book half a dozen tables for that date considerably in advance, it just can't be done.

And asking a small group to fork out £200 for you to hold a few tables in the corner for them is preposterous.

If it were on a far more "per table" basis - £5 per table for one day, half off the second day, book more than 20 tables and get a countdown timer and sound system thrown in, half the fee down in advance and if you're not there by 12 o'clock and haven't given us a reason, we give the tables to someone else - that would have worked fine. A group of 8 wouldn't baulk at paying £20 between them to know there'll be four tables waiting for them on the day.
But asking for £200 means that where they could have had a £20 booking fee and eight people in the store, they now have neither, because said gamers have gone elsewhere.

enyoss
11-01-2011, 04:51
Im confused, I would expect it to be a scaled up version of Warhammer Bunker site that hosts events all the time.

If you're talking about the bunker in Westminster near LA, then I reckon Warhammer World probably around 10 times the area excluding the shop, `museum' and Bugmans... it's pretty big.



Unless you live very near Nottingham, turning up at WHW is not some kind of flash mob - the organisation has to start months beforehand, and without being able to book half a dozen tables for that date considerably in advance, it just can't be done.

And asking a small group to fork out £200 for you to hold a few tables in the corner for them is preposterous.


I guess you're right on that. I was lucky enough to have a group which met near Leicester, so we were able to ring up the day before if we wanted to visit. We used to leave our games set up over night though for more involved get-togethers, and I can see why they might get a bit annoyed by that. Still, I would hope that they wouldn't charge the published rates for small groups using 6 tables or so.

MarcoSkoll
11-01-2011, 06:02
I reckon Warhammer World is probably around 10 times the area excluding the shop, `museum' and Bugmans... it's pretty big.
For the benefit of those who have not been, there's a picture at the head of this article (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?categoryId=2200008&aId=6900034a) which shows the main gaming hall.

There's some rather interesting camera distortion that makes it look smaller than it actually is, and it's not taken quite from the corner of the hall, so there's a bit more space "behind" the photographer (and to each side of the image) but it gives an idea.


Still, I would hope that they wouldn't charge the published rates for small groups using 6 tables or so.
You do have to hope, and I'd like to think that GW aren't yet that stupid/greedy. I'm guessing there'll be a lower limit, and a bit more granularity in the list than is actually suggested, but I guess we won't know that until someone actually rings up to find out.

Warhammer World has its charms as a location to meet-up, but it'll be a cold day in hell before I hand over more than a few quid for the privilege of using their gaming hall.

AndrewGPaul
11-01-2011, 09:09
It certainly doesn't. For a group of a couple of dozen who might need maybe 8 tables, £200 is totally excessive.

Is it? That's less than a tenner a head. Seems pretty reasonable to me. Mind you, is Nottingham even a decent location, for an event drawing from all over the UK?

DarthSte
11-01-2011, 09:14
They are actually pretty good prices.

rodmillard
11-01-2011, 12:26
Mind you, is Nottingham even a decent location, for an event drawing from all over the UK?

A lot of national events are based in Nottingham or Derby. It has excellent public transport links, and is handy for the East Midlands Airport if you're travelling from further afield (I know LARPers who fly in and out from Jersey for events 4 times a year). At the end of the day its as easy (if not easier) to get to as London, but accomodation tends to be MUCH cheaper. Birmingham (west midlands) is also good, for all the same reasons, but not as nice a place to visit!

Charax
11-01-2011, 12:59
although given the significant hike in train prices this year, I imagine small events are effectively dead at WHW ("get a bunch of mates to jump on the train to WHW for a meetup" is a substantially different prospect than it was last year")

Commandojimbob
11-01-2011, 13:22
£430 for 64 tables over 2 days works sounds cheap to me.

if it is a 6 game tourney that works out to be less than £1.20 per game, so for table hire that is less than £7 per person for 2 days of gaming (in a fake castle courtyard....the coolest part of WW)

not too sure what the issue is

Agree - I dont see the issue - many of you need to roll with the times - GW is a corporate beast (well in reality a Kitten) and if your not making you assets work for you then your a fool.

Prices seem sensible, dare I say generous - but if your used to it being free then i guess it is a shock but then free venues these days are rare and certainly dont come with shed loads of GW terrain and tables !

rodmillard
11-01-2011, 13:29
Agree - I dont see the issue - many of you need to roll with the times - GW is a corporate beast (well in reality a Kitten) and if your not making you assets work for you then your a fool.

Prices seem sensible, dare I say generous - but if your used to it being free then i guess it is a shock but then free venues these days are rare and certainly dont come with shed loads of GW terrain and tables !

Given that my LGS (Triple Helix in Westbury) charges £2 for a table plus terrain for 4 hours or £15 for a whole day (including lunch), the prices at WHW don't look excessive. The issue comes from the fact that they have set the threshholds at odd levels, meaning that smaller events are much dearer per head than larger ones - effectively forcing the niche events elsewhere.

Commandojimbob
11-01-2011, 13:42
Given that my LGS (Triple Helix in Westbury) charges £2 for a table plus terrain for 4 hours or £15 for a whole day (including lunch), the prices at WHW don't look excessive. The issue comes from the fact that they have set the threshholds at odd levels, meaning that smaller events are much dearer per head than larger ones - effectively forcing the niche events elsewhere.

That is not an issue, that is common practice and will be based on the fixed cost base of providing the venue.

Simple example - Our Christmas party this year was held at a very nice hotel - they had a minimal fee of 100 heads at X price. In the end only 86 people came but we had to pay for 100 heads.

You could completely argue that WHW is a "Sunk" cost to GW and that GW are hardly going to decide to stop providing the facility on Financial grounds. However, it makes no financial sense to be free - as I said - you need to make your assets work for you. So setting these levels will be based on the fixed cost base and if that means it becomes less cost effective for smaller events - so be it - your going from a revenue stream of 0 to something, with or without small events !

It is an example of the business head leading the way but they are a business.

yabbadabba
11-01-2011, 15:49
Agree - I dont see the issue..Its a philosophical one, which still has a part in business decision. For me this isn't as black and white as you have painted it, although your's is a valid point.

Commandojimbob
11-01-2011, 16:05
Agree - it is not black and white - you can look at it in the cold financial sense of my point (because i am a cold Finance person :) ) or you can take a more holistic view and understand how having a free venue is viewed by the gaming community and what that in turn brings.

E.g. Company I work for has a Trainer - he flys around the world training customers how to use our products or simply introduce them to their functionalities. On many occassions the salesforce will throw this service in for free - other times, it will be sold.

To many customers - if they spent $1,000,000 on one of our systems, 3 days worth of training for free is expected. Customer expectations versus cold reality - I dont run or treat our trainer as a profit centre because i believe he should be viewed as a customer service and ultimately he will cover his salary and expenses.

WHW - customer service / feel nice factor / expectation versus revenue generating cost centre ?????

The cold Finance person will stick to my original points on this particular debate but only time will tell if it has any negative affect on the customer service / gamer perception.

Steve54
11-01-2011, 17:29
The prices don't see bad until you consider that the direct competitors - Maelstrom in Mansfield and NWGC in Stockport don't charge for the tables.

So WHW an event will have the £300+ 'tables' fee plus food (which you have to take for large events) whereas the others will just have the food cost - I wonder why 99% of independent events are leaving?

BTW the ban on anything bar 40k, WFB + LOTR being played isn't true - we play SGs there every week

Chaos and Evil
11-01-2011, 17:37
The prices don't see bad until you consider that the direct competitors - Maelstrom in Mansfield and NWGC in Stockport don't charge for the tables.
Cheers for the info Steve, I can now add that to my list of reasons why Eye of the Storm is better than Warhammer World (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5230917&postcount=20) for holding tournaments/events.

rodmillard
11-01-2011, 18:36
That is not an issue, that is common practice and will be based on the fixed cost base of providing the venue.

Simple example - Our Christmas party this year was held at a very nice hotel - they had a minimal fee of 100 heads at X price. In the end only 86 people came but we had to pay for 100 heads.

You could completely argue that WHW is a "Sunk" cost to GW and that GW are hardly going to decide to stop providing the facility on Financial grounds. However, it makes no financial sense to be free - as I said - you need to make your assets work for you. So setting these levels will be based on the fixed cost base and if that means it becomes less cost effective for smaller events - so be it - your going from a revenue stream of 0 to something, with or without small events !

It is an example of the business head leading the way but they are a business.

I think you missed my point - the issue for niche events is the threshhold, not the charge. The fact that they charge the same for a tournament needing 40 tables as they do for a SG event needing 10 means that the SG event will look elsewhere. If they had a lower threshhold (say >20 tables for £200) then the smaller events would still use it as a venue.

Shamutanti
12-01-2011, 02:25
the other thing is remember that events will be free to any GW store running one, so therefore it's more incentive for people to attend GW store events that travel to Warhammer World - and considering every store must run at least 1 event to WHW it's an obvious puller.

Heck, with the Yorkshire Open now gone and instead being run as a GW event in WHW by a bunch of stores it's not surprising they're charging externals for use.

Fair prices in my mind either way and I'm surprised they didn't charge sooner - after the damage I've seen some people do to that terrain it's no wonder.

MarcoSkoll
12-01-2011, 05:04
Is it? That's less than a tenner a head. Seems pretty reasonable to me.
Not when there are venues that aren't charging that kind of money, and the only thing against them is "They're not Warhammer themed".

The point is, a couple of dozen is about the most that can be expected for an Inquisitor event - GW doesn't promote the game, so it's a bit niche. Then of those players, they'll generally assume there aren't any events or, if there are, they're some sort of clique.
While we can get it out to the people who read Inquisitor forums or try and cajole anyone we know from our local stores, that's not a large audience.
Of whom we can get the news to, only so many will be prepared to travel several hours to go and play. Of those, there will be some with other commitments, transport problems or some reason other than "don't want to" for why they can't turn up.

Mostly, we can expect around a dozen. And I don't know about you, but I don't think the hire of five tables for eight hours is worth £200. Small events become unreasonably expensive per head for the services actually offered.
Now, if we could turn Inquisitor events into 40+ players, then the money doesn't look bad. But right now, that looks to be inconceivable.

And to a part, it's the principle of the thing. £10-20 is less than half what it costs to get up there on the train (so a relatively minor part of the cost), but that ticket price was a fair price for the transport services rendered - forking over a large part of my wallet for the privilege of standing in Games Workshop rather than "Big gaming hall that is not Games Workshop" is not.


Mind you, is Nottingham even a decent location, for an event drawing from all over the UK?
It's pretty central with lots of transport links. Obviously, it's too far for everyone, but we get enough people to play, so it's worked so far.

Torpedo Vegas
12-01-2011, 05:28
From what I have seen of WW through pictures and the like, I probably pay for the chance to use some of those tables.
The biggest tournament in Northwest Florida costs twenty-five dollars to play at the center its held, with all our beautiful plywood tables covered in flocked mats.:cries:

viking657
12-01-2011, 10:48
I can't say I'm surprised by this development but what I didn't see, as I read through this thread, was the point that now they are charging for the use of tables for events its bound to slowly creep up over the coming years like everything else GW slap a price on.

The fact of the matter is these independent events sell tickets and GW, other than Bugmans or store sales, see none of this money yet your using their facilites.
I know in this thread someone pointed out some events donated to charity but thats not all events. Its simple business sense, forget the gamers for a minute, groups of people dream up events (fantastic good on you totally good for the hobby) and set a ticket price. Where does all that money go? Into the organisers pocket? If the answers yes then GW has a right to a cut.
Everyone does it, if you wanted to hold your travelling circus in a certain town you'd pay the council a fee for use of the land or whatever its just the way the world works.
This cut is less about profit and more about maintaining the event venue though I'm more than a little afraid the price will creep up and the orignal reason will overtake the final one.

The final point I need to make is this, regardless of if you want to have an events team member on hand or not this person probably has to be there anyway when the hall is pretty full.
One or more people need to be paid to supervise the hall for insurance purposes probably I would think, so charging for tables in this case makes perfect business sense.

I forgot something else, the other two growing venues in Stockport and Maelstrom are great but even these places will not stay free forever.
Things like rent, massively increased (charged by the sq ft) business rates for all the space those tables occupy and the overall cost to maintain tables and scenery will eventually make a dent in the profit margins and force those venues to consider and eventually implement some sort of cost.
Its all well and good to invest a lump sum into building something like that (and they both are new expansions) but to maintain it over the long term is a very different kettle of fish

Gazak Blacktoof
12-01-2011, 11:13
I know in this thread someone pointed out some events donated to charity but thats not all events. Its simple business sense, forget the gamers for a minute, groups of people dream up events (fantastic good on you totally good for the hobby) and set a ticket price. Where does all that money go? Into the organisers pocket? If the answers yes then GW has a right to a cut.

I doubt it. I'm sure that if tournaments were making money then somebody simply doing it for the love of the hobby, and that's not turning a profit, would have pointed this out by now.

I think that generally the costs are for the venue, prize support, sometimes food and printed materials.

Perhaps somebody that organises tournaments would care to comment?

viking657
12-01-2011, 14:02
I doubt it. I'm sure that if tournaments were making money then somebody simply doing it for the love of the hobby, and that's not turning a profit, would have pointed this out by now.

I think that generally the costs are for the venue, prize support, sometimes food and printed materials.

Perhaps somebody that organises tournaments would care to comment?

I too would be interested in knowing how organisers come up with the ticket price.

I'd also add that I very highly doubt anyone using WHW is making vast sums as a business idea and that anyone who goes to all this effort is clearly doing it because they love the hobby so much and must be applauded.

Prizes are not usually a holiday in Florida and printing is dirt cheap and up until this point WHW was a free venue so all I'm saying is should the organiser be paid or pocket a few quid? Why not they went to alot of effort to organise everything but I sincerely doubt ticket prices need to go up as a result of the changes at WHW.

Say I organise an event for 50 people and charge £15 a ticket thats £750! Were does all that go? Especially prior to the WHW changes?
I'd also add that the example above is not big money or a business

MarcoSkoll
12-01-2011, 14:36
I too would be interested in knowing how organisers come up with the ticket price.
Bear in mind, a certain part of the ticket price is to stop time wasters.

If you charge, it puts people off going "Yeah... I'll turn up. Honest. Hur Hur Hur" and leaving you with an empty table (no-one's going to pay £15 to pull that prank), as well as adding more incentive for the people who were actually serious to not just decide they don't want to get up today (they've paid for it, so they might as well go).

Obviously, not everyone is like that, and most people are serious, but if you don't have some way to dissuade time wasters, you're just asking for trouble.

But that doesn't cover where the money goes, of course, but you might be underestimating just how much the organiser has put into this. As they're not getting to game today, and they're putting it on for your benefit, it's reasonable they cover things like fuel costs and any other expenses they've accrued in organising and running this.

Chaos and Evil
12-01-2011, 15:01
Say I organise an event for 50 people and charge £15 a ticket thats £750! Were does all that go?
5-8 nice metal trophies, and food for 50 people.

Maybe some cash left over for terrain, so the next tournament run by that group has some prettier terrain.

Shamutanti
12-01-2011, 19:05
Not when there are venues that aren't charging that kind of money, and the only thing against them is "They're not Warhammer themed".

The point is, a couple of dozen is about the most that can be expected for an Inquisitor event - GW doesn't promote the game, so it's a bit niche. Then of those players, they'll generally assume there aren't any events or, if there are, they're some sort of clique.
While we can get it out to the people who read Inquisitor forums or try and cajole anyone we know from our local stores, that's not a large audience.
Of whom we can get the news to, only so many will be prepared to travel several hours to go and play. Of those, there will be some with other commitments, transport problems or some reason other than "don't want to" for why they can't turn up.

Mostly, we can expect around a dozen. And I don't know about you, but I don't think the hire of five tables for eight hours is worth £200. Small events become unreasonably expensive per head for the services actually offered.
Now, if we could turn Inquisitor events into 40+ players, then the money doesn't look bad. But right now, that looks to be inconceivable.

And to a part, it's the principle of the thing. £10-20 is less than half what it costs to get up there on the train (so a relatively minor part of the cost), but that ticket price was a fair price for the transport services rendered - forking over a large part of my wallet for the privilege of standing in Games Workshop rather than "Big gaming hall that is not Games Workshop" is not.


It's pretty central with lots of transport links. Obviously, it's too far for everyone, but we get enough people to play, so it's worked so far.

It just sucks to be part of the Inquisitor crowd I suppose?

The charges were obviously going to hit some smaller events and groups but it's a minor grievance to a sensible business move on those events that are much bigger in size.

Plus alot of the terrain in WHW doesn't even fit Inquisitor.

warhammergrimace
12-01-2011, 19:40
I think most people have forgotten the cost of advertising. I'm involved in the setting up and running of a gaming and miniature painting show in sheffield this year.

Costs include;

Venue hire
Additional table hire

Prizes for the painting comp and display games

Advertising the event, this is expensive if you start looking at magazine adverts.
Website setup and costs, though this becomes cheaper on following years.

Printouts of the event
printed Posters and leaflets to advertise the event

Show logo design (if required)

Public liability Insurance

I sometimes wonder if most gamers live in cloud cuckoo land when it comes to business and money. We will make a lot of our costs back by charging traders a fee for a table. A tournament would achieve this by ticket price. So WHW is going to charge, well if that's the case then ticket price will go up. Malestrom is an excellent alternative venue for tournaments, having attended a few events there, but its not WHW.

These are just a sample of the costs that are expected in organising an event, on top of that there is time and trouble taken by those organising the event off thier own backs. Believe me there is no money to be made from organising gaming events, a site like Malestrom would make thier money from products sales in the shop and food and drink.

Keravin
12-01-2011, 19:49
I'm not certain how paying WHW's charges helps with the costs of advertising it?

The only thing I see them covering is the public liability insurance which really they must have something in place for the venue already.

rodmillard
12-01-2011, 19:52
I'm not certain how paying WHW's charges helps with the costs of advertising it?

The only thing I see them covering is the public liability insurance which really they must have something in place for the venue already.

On both counts, while they were not charging they were making a loss on these and effectively running WHW as a loss leader (hold your event here for free, but your competitors MUST use our models).

I would guess, given their falling revenue for the first half of this year, that they feel they can no longer afford to do that and that the venue must be self financing.

MarcoSkoll
13-01-2011, 03:27
Plus a lot of the terrain in WHW doesn't even fit Inquisitor.
We get this a lot, and it's not actually true. These photos (#1 (http://buildyourimagination.co.uk/minis/conclavegt09.php?i=DSCI0305.jpg), #2 (http://buildyourimagination.co.uk/minis/conclavegt09.php?i=DSCI0311.jpg), #3 (http://buildyourimagination.co.uk/minis/conclavegt09.php?i=DSCI0314.jpg)) are all 54mm models alongside the "28mm terrain" at WHW, and there are no real issues.

The reason is that 28mm terrain has to accommodate Tau Battlesuits, Mega Armoured Nobz and Terminators, so while trees become shorter trees (or alien shrubs!), and rocks become smaller rocks, there's believable headroom in buildings, doors/walkways are wide enough, etc. Occasionally we do have to take a piece off the board because it's too out of scale to work, but it's really very rare.

Shamutanti
13-01-2011, 03:29
Well proved me wrong on the terrain.

It fits oddly better than I expected.

Quite amused by that!

Keravin
13-01-2011, 09:21
On both counts, while they were not charging they were making a loss on these and effectively running WHW as a loss leader (hold your event here for free, but your competitors MUST use our models).



I understand that. Still won't let us not use someone else's models though.

reds8n
14-01-2011, 11:30
Part of a reply I had from GW regarding this :


Just so you know, the charges are aimed at larger bookings, as you suggested, and we will be clarifying the process for smaller groups, as we certainly want as many people as possible using our gaming hall to continue enjoying their Games Workshop hobby. I am also going to make it clear as to what size groups will count for the hire charges.



.which strikes me as good news really then, and reassuring for people/forums planning smaller, less formal get togethers.

yabbadabba
14-01-2011, 16:06
On both counts, while they were not charging they were making a loss on these and effectively running WHW as a loss leader (hold your event here for free, but your competitors MUST use our models). WHW isn't run as a loss leader, and the original costs were paid off a long time ago. The costs of WHW are split between the store (to a greatly lesser degree) and the Events Team. That £55 you pay for a tournament or whatever is part of the overall way of paying for WHW's costs.

This is two things really. GW have traditionally made their resources free, even if the time and the place might be restricted. Only certain events have been charged for, and shop events have, as a vast majority, been free. This was to encourage people to come to the store, develop hobby skills and to build that hobby feel community. The payoff was the increase in sales this would bring. Now we have those resources starting to be restricted, witheld or charged for. I could say that these things are being seen as an unnecessary cost centre, it is probably being pushed as "things which are free have no associated value" to justify the charge, which is rubbish but I have heard being touted by GW staff before.

The second thing is that by charging for WHW they are creating another revenue stream. Add that to the new booking procedures (almost a lottery) and GW are either trying to raise revenue through forcing people to their own events, or are raising revenue as the events are now seen to be not financially viable, or capable of reaching the desired profit margin.

Where one the philosophy was the products bought the services, now we see GW pushing customers towards having to buy both, and at higher prices than others in the market.

While I can see the reasonableness of charging for the use overall, it is a reflection of a shift in philosophy and its one that makes me frown.

StarSpangled
04-02-2011, 14:51
WHW isn't run as a loss leader, and the original costs were paid off a long time ago. The costs of WHW are split between the store (to a greatly lesser degree) and the Events Team.


The money from the store is seperate to WHW - none of that goes into the rest of the place. Bugman's and events are the only two sources of income (and whatever else they have, the food?). May seem dumb, but there's a line drawn by someone which says that the store's profits are the store's profits - end of story.

I've seen people try to steal scenery at events, damage done to stuff - so that has to be paid for. Lighting it, all that stuff too. The people who have done the maths are right, it breaks down quite good per table given some of them would cost a bomb to make yourself.

Also good to know that we won't think 'no point going today - there's a big event on' and then find that the event had been cancelled and we could have played. A price means people will think twice before they book the whole thing then only turn up with 12 mates.

Be good to know what the smaller group booking prices are and the caps tho.

ArtificerArmour
05-02-2011, 14:34
The sad yhing about maelstrom is that its in the middle of no where - mansfield has nothing there. Regulars at maelstrom warned us off the town, and transport links are horrible. On a sunday, goi.g back to leeeds on train would actually taken 4 hours. Seriously. Nottingham 2 would taken two. Theyre obly about 20 miles apart!

When i go to game, i go for the night out and social occaison. For this reason, id still choose whw over maelstrom. Not everyone drives.

yabbadabba
05-02-2011, 14:40
The money from the store is seperate to WHW - none of that goes into the rest of the place. Bugman's and events are the only two sources of income (and whatever else they have, the food?). May seem dumb, but there's a line drawn by someone which says that the store's profits are the store's profits - end of story. Hmmm, I got told by a very reliable source that the shop and the events hall were one and the same, and that the store got split off about 5/6 years ago. The store still have to pay towards the lighting et al - I can't see GW having a serparate meter reader to WhW.
Still, if I am wrong, apologies.
The WhW resources - tables scenery etc, I know all those are paid for out of the events budget.

Steve54
07-02-2011, 10:21
The sad yhing about maelstrom is that its in the middle of no where - mansfield has nothing there. Regulars at maelstrom warned us off the town, and transport links are horrible. On a sunday, goi.g back to leeeds on train would actually taken 4 hours. Seriously. Nottingham 2 would taken two. Theyre obly about 20 miles apart!

When i go to game, i go for the night out and social occaison. For this reason, id still choose whw over maelstrom. Not everyone drives.

I'd suggest picking better trains then as most mansfield-leeds journeys take 3 hours. Mansfield may not have the nightlife of Notts but there is still plenty of options for a pub or curry.

The point of WHW now charging room/table charge+food is that you now won't get the choice of where to go to a tournament as no non-GW events will be at WHW as they will (and already are- Open War, BotC) move to venues where you pay for food (and cheaper,better food at that) and get the room+_tables free. Organisers will go for the cheaper venue as they are now so much cheaper rather than just the difference being in food prices, which outweighs the pull of WHW.

Chaos and Evil
07-02-2011, 10:47
I agree with Steve54 on all counts.

Major_Manny
07-02-2011, 11:02
There's no difference with Mansfield & Notts nightlight, you got just as much chance getting stabbed at either as they are both ***** HOLES!!

Went to a tourney that was held at Maelstrom, and i gota say, its just as easy to get to and it was only £25 for the weekend instead of the £55. The whole place just seems alot more relaxed. Most GW staff just seem stuck up.

ArtificerArmour
07-02-2011, 17:26
Notts has pit and pendulum and rock city. And trains every hour on a sunday night. Mansfield trains on a sunday leave you waiting under an hour for connections.

Plus i requested nut free food at maelstrom, and i got given 'nut free' satay sticks. Hmm. That could have been an extremely serious incident.

Im not saying maelstroms crap - i enjoyed my weekend there immensely. Just the choice is not a strict black/white screw you gw choice. I disagree with quite a few decisions gw make, but i would never turn down a tournie or event just because it was at whw. I spend money on 40k - if gw would rather me buy atank or pay extra to play a tournie, fine - but i wont spend it on both. I'm sure theres people who would though and they wont make any real losses.

Old Gobbo
24-02-2011, 23:18
As part of the 1st Company Veterans (the Club GW begged us to set up as an independant club at WHW) Events Team, I was saddened that the increased costs in staging an event at our home venue forced us to look at alternative options.

The ticket price for our last event was £18 per head for a one day event. Two thirds of this went directly to GW to cover the cost of food. It is quite common for caterers in the UK to work on around a 400-500%+ mark on food, VAT (value added tax) went on top at 17.5% (it's now 20%) even with Staffing costs there is still a reasonable mark up. A further £130 went on set up charges with around another £100 for paypal. The remaining money was split between trophies, a prize draw and this years club charity the Nottingham Air Ambulance. The club itself makes no profit from the event.

The increased cost in the set up fee, coupled with the increased price of food and the VAT hike would have meant that we would be looking at a £5-£6 increase in the ticket price to maintain the status quo. We took the very difficult decision that this would have made our event uncompetitive, so we had to look at alternatives. Maelstrom is only 11 miles up the road from WHW, they offered similar catering for a significantly lower charge, no set up fee, a significant amount of hands on help and a Gaming day discount on the products in their store plus a number of other little benefits (that all stack up). This meant we could hold our ticket price at £18, which will allow us a little more financial flexiblity with more prizes for the prize draw and more money for this years chosed charity Cancer Research UK.

I accept that GW are a business, but it doesn't appear coincidental to me that in the same year that the Independant events have moved away from WHW in to the hands of their rivals, GW are also suffering from severe profit warnings and a significantly decreased Share price. Their success as a business is dependant on working with their customers to keep them happy, afterall happy customers tend to come back for repeat sales, dissatisfied ones disappear often never to return.

I'd be more than happy for our events to return to WHW, but GW have to make it economically viable for us to be able to do so.

Charax
13-03-2011, 10:42
Pricing's been updated: http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1640780a_Gaming_hall_hire_guide_03.02.11.pdf

5-10 tables are now free (no option for under 5) although the PDF doesn't list that as an exception to the £100 deposit required for "all bookings" - hopefully that's just another mistake.

OutOfContext
14-03-2011, 21:53
This is the first time I've ever heard a good word said about Mansfield and its nightlife :eyebrows:

Maelstrom is the only good thing about that place. It really is a terrible area...

Maelstrom is a really good venue for its size though. Just like a mini-WHW from my experiences.

Bjorn Hellhammer
18-03-2011, 17:54
The £100 deposit is to make sure that the booking is kept to. Before the new system came in there used to be many cases of clubs/events booking large portions/all of the hall and then failing to turn up or using a small percentage of the space booked. This irked me immensly as I could have used the tables to have games within my group but left it because we were warned off that there was a large event hapening (it's quite a trek for some, so it's not worth hanging around for a few hours and not getting a game in).

To be honest the hall is always fairly busy, even if there isn't an event. Just my take on the situation, though I really want to get upto Mansfield at some point and see the store.

Steve54
19-03-2011, 08:26
The £100 deposit is to make sure that the booking is kept to. Before the new system came in there used to be many cases of clubs/events booking large portions/all of the hall and then failing to turn up or using a small percentage of the space booked. This irked me immensly as I could have used the tables to have games within my group but left it because we were warned off that there was a large event hapening (it's quite a trek for some, so it's not worth hanging around for a few hours and not getting a game in).

To be honest the hall is always fairly busy, even if there isn't an event. Just my take on the situation, though I really want to get upto Mansfield at some point and see the store.

Nope, thats got nothing to do with it. Anybody booking more than a handful of tables to play on (which you can still do) previously had to pay in advance for food so WHW knew how many were actually coming.

Bjorn Hellhammer
19-03-2011, 11:54
Fair comment, but what I said still stands. There was a period where there were constant large bookings that for one reason or another fell through and left the hall empty. Generally the shop staff let me know how busy the hall was, or if I didn't get a heads up about the event they would be moaning about the lack of partisipation.

Thanks for setting me right on that.

edit: shpellung

tu33y
24-03-2011, 16:06
I never go to Warhammer World (having everyone ogle you the whole time gets old fast), .

erm, that would be me. sorry- my bad


as for the topic- the image is gone so... does thi smean if you book a table, or if you book many tables? im confused...

MarcoSkoll
24-03-2011, 21:46
as for the topic- the image is gone so...
... see Charax's post a few up from yours, it has a link to the updated PDF of the hire guide.