PDA

View Full Version : Why do people think Orks are uncompetitive?



dreadhead
11-01-2011, 14:47
Having read a few threads on another forum where people are saying this, I'm wondering if anyone can give me a reasoned explanation of why they think Orks are an uncompetitve army.

xerxeshavelock
11-01-2011, 14:49
I think they believe that taking part is the important thing?

Ravenous
11-01-2011, 14:57
Its mostly because their inability to deal with mech., but thats at the highest levels of competitive play, in every other level they still trounce face.

Conquest toronto saw 4 out of the 5 Ork players that attended come in the top 5 myself included. Astronomi-con also had orks win, so its sometimes hard to believe what you read on the interent when you see Orks do really well in every tournament you attend. Having said that though things like 'Ard Boyz orks start to fall behind, because everyone else starts getting access to more anti-horde units/gear.

GrogDaTyrant
11-01-2011, 15:54
I think it's mostly due to how badly they got shafted on ways to deal with AV 14. The FAQ on the Deathrolla for 5th took 2 years of waiting, and ultimately I think it was just a 'band-aid' ruling so that Orks weren't completely hosed in the Spearhead expansion.

Another issue probably has to do with the wide-spread idea that Orks are a 'Hurr Combat' army that runs mindlessly into it's opponent. 5th ed's continuation of the 'initiative roll-off', it's joke of a 'combat resolution', and the extremely unforgiving No Retreat! rule, have put a serious cramp on 2 dimension combat-focused Ork armies. Well, at least those not focusing exclusively on Nobs.

But I think one of the single biggest issues that Orks have with 'competitive' environments, is time-constraint. Footslogging (or ncluding a large element of footslogging) is still arguably one of the most effective Ork builds. The problem however, is that by dropping the cost of the Ork boy, it puts more emphasis on higher model count. Besides taking away some of the combat potency of the individual boy, the swelling of model count makes for longer movement phases for the Orks and therefore makes it much more difficult to finish a 1750 to 2k game within 2 hours. Pulling off a tournament with a horde army of 150+ model count means having to rush through your movement. Using the 'measure closest and move the rest within reason' is practically mandatory and can easily lead to a dispute against a jerk opponent.

Ravenous
11-01-2011, 16:10
But I think one of the single biggest issues that Orks have with 'competitive' environments, is time-constraint. Footslogging (or ncluding a large element of footslogging) is still arguably one of the most effective Ork builds. The problem however, is that by dropping the cost of the Ork boy, it puts more emphasis on higher model count. Besides taking away some of the combat potency of the individual boy, the swelling of model count makes for longer movement phases for the Orks and therefore makes it much more difficult to finish a 1750 to 2k game within 2 hours. Pulling off a tournament with a horde army of 150+ model count means having to rush through your movement. Using the 'measure closest and move the rest within reason' is practically mandatory and can easily lead to a dispute against a jerk opponent.

I disagree with that one, I ran a green tide with 190models and finished my tournament games in my usual 1 hour, and I measure each model. Slow players are slow with everything.

IronNerd
11-01-2011, 16:22
I think Orks are awesome... honestly, in my area, I think they're generally considered to be incredibly competitive. Deff Rollas are insane-o amazing...

CplHicks
11-01-2011, 16:28
Well, two ork players scored first and third in our tournament last week. And we do quite well in the realm of having competitive armylists around I think. So I don't see much of a problem if the ork player knows what he does. As always. My first opponent was an ork as well and I trounced him heavily as his list and gameplay were quite subpar.

Thud
11-01-2011, 16:34
It's not that they are bad, or that they will "auto-lose" against armies considered competitive, but rather that they are at a severe disadvantage against a number of opponents (e.g., MSU, heavy armour).

Bergen Beerbelly
11-01-2011, 17:04
I think it's more a matter of whose hands the Ork army is in. There are some players that are good enough at this game that they can win consistently with any army you put in their hands.

PatrikW
11-01-2011, 17:26
I disagree with that one, I ran a green tide with 190models and finished my tournament games in my usual 1 hour, and I measure each model. Slow players are slow with everything.

1 Hour for a whole game? Even if you just moves your units and does nothing else in the game thats less then 4 sec per model per moment phase. I sure hope you opponents time or deployment isn't included in that.


On topic:
As said orks have problems dealing with AV, (aside from deff rollers and PF) But as people here said of course they can come out good in a tournament or two but that is in my opinion more depending on the ones playing then the codex.

DuskRaider
11-01-2011, 17:30
Because they don't have an insta-win button like IG & Space Wolves.

FashaTheDog
11-01-2011, 17:40
I disagree with that one, I ran a green tide with 190models and finished my tournament games in my usual 1 hour, and I measure each model. Slow players are slow with everything.

So you dipped your hands in red paint so they'd go faster...cunning. I made the mistake once of using my Orks in a tournament and I never got past turn 5, which cost me the win for my last game as I really needed that last turn to seal the deal. Granted I got hit piecemeal and and the combats dragged the time out considerably. Still, I can see how you were able to pull it off with a combination of opponents who did not dally, your own practiced speed using the list, and tabling your foe on turn 3 (at least that's how my Ghazghkull and his 210 boys do it in under an hour).

Bergen Beerbelly
11-01-2011, 17:42
I beat IG and Space Wolves regularly...I'm sure others do too...so what insta win button would that be?

I think it has a lot to do with army composition as well. Orks are not an easy army to play, thats for sure. But they do have several advantages if the person playing them has a good grasp of the rules, an inkling of strategy, and a grasp of tactics.

Good Ork armies can be built but to do so means going through the codex and choosing the force based on what it's strengths are and in game minimizing what weaknesses the list you build has. That requires strategy and tactics.

GrogDaTyrant
11-01-2011, 18:27
I disagree with that one, I ran a green tide with 190models and finished my tournament games in my usual 1 hour, and I measure each model. Slow players are slow with everything.

From the sounds of it, you also weren't moving every mob every turn. I wouldn't be surprised to see a large portion of that 190 model count as 'static' any given turn, such as Lootas, or Shootas objective sitting or within their 'sweet-spot' 18" range.

VonManstein
11-01-2011, 18:34
Because they don't have an insta-win button like IG & Space Wolves.
Somebody got beaten badly it seems. Completely untrue though; neither Orks nor IG nor Wolves have an instant win button. Bad armies are just an auto-lose button that's all.

On-topic:
I think this has been discussed to death already. In the end it comes down to the definition of competativeness. If all tourneys can be considered as competative environments then yes; they are competative. In my definition of the word though: No. They fail against a lot of truly good armies. Not many people play with these though (while also being a good player themselves). The result of this is that the weaknesses of Orks (glaring weaknesses, which you can't work around) don't get revealed often enough.

Ravenous
11-01-2011, 18:41
Thats the thing, you dont need to move every turn.

At 1500pts my army was: 120 Shoota Boyz, 30 Slugga boyz, 30 grots, big mek w/kff, battlewagon w/deffrolla, paint, riggers, shoota, armour, and 5 burnaboyz.

Combat is slow and tedious, shooting is fast. Against shooting armies it ran at them and shot them to bits, against combat armies I sat back and watched them hit the grot speed bump then shot them to bits.

I won 3 tournaments with it and only lost with it once, against dual lash princes and 3 units of 2 oblits, he pushed me back, bunched me up away from the kff and plasma cannoned me.

The game slows down if you loligag around and chit chat, knowing the rules well means you can speed up your own and your opponents turn. It also helps when you make armies that get to the point of killing the other guy and not give out fluffy hugs.

Vaktathi
11-01-2011, 18:47
I personally don't think that Orks are uncompetitive at all. In fact they are a great foil to many armies that ensures that people can't just run a bunch of AP2/3 weapons all day and get away with it.


Now, do Orks have some problems? Two and a half years into 5E and three years after their release? Sure. Are they crippling? I don't think so. Orks I think are still one of the better armies out there. No-Retreat and difficulties in dealing with heavy armor (Monoliths, Land Raiders) hurts for sure sometimes, but against most armies I think Orks are great. Granted I don't play them so my perspective may be skewed, but I've played *against* them plenty of times, and *lost* quite a bit.


A big problem on the tourney circuit as many noted however is time. Tourneys have to fit in a schedule and they typically are done to what it takes to play out a MEQ versus MEQ game, not something like a Green Tide list.

FashaTheDog
11-01-2011, 18:56
Thats the thing, you dont need to move every turn.

At 1500pts my army was: 120 Shoota Boyz, 30 Slugga boyz, 30 grots, big mek w/kff, battlewagon w/deffrolla, paint, riggers, shoota, armour, and 5 burnaboyz.

Combat is slow and tedious, shooting is fast. Against shooting armies it ran at them and shot them to bits, against combat armies I sat back and watched them hit the grot speed bump then shot them to bits.

I won 3 tournaments with it and only lost with it once, against dual lash princes and 3 units of 2 oblits, he pushed me back, bunched me up away from the kff and plasma cannoned me.

The game slows down if you loligag around and chit chat, knowing the rules well means you can speed up your own and your opponents turn. It also helps when you make armies that get to the point of killing the other guy and not give out fluffy hugs.

That would do it too. My 1,850 point Orks consist of six 30 strong Slugga Boy mobs with a Power Klaw armed Nob, Ghazghkull, and 335 points worth of something else, usually 30 Kommandos with a single Power Klaw armed Nob between two units. The only time I am not moving and running them is when they are in assaults.

PyroSikTh
11-01-2011, 19:10
I frankly can't understand why they get negative light either. I have never beaten them. There's too many of them rushing at me too fast that no matter who my opponent is, or what army I use, I get trounced time and time again.

SPYDER68
11-01-2011, 19:44
Orks can deal with land raiders now.

They have deff rolla's

igotsmeakabob!!
11-01-2011, 19:46
I think Orks are awesome... honestly, in my area, I think they're generally considered to be incredibly competitive. Deff Rollas are insane-o amazing...

Ditto here.
That and the Nob Squad that has entirely different equipment for each model for wound allocation, plus Ghazguul (sp?) and his two-turn 2++ save.

Glabro
11-01-2011, 19:50
I disagree with that one, I ran a green tide with 190models and finished my tournament games in my usual 1 hour, and I measure each model. Slow players are slow with everything.

What the heck? This is inconceivable to me.

Ravenous
11-01-2011, 19:53
Honestly its just knowing the rules and having a general tactic against everyone. Skipping phases helps too.

My 1750 reserve denial eldar usual finishes games in 45minutes.

GrogDaTyrant
11-01-2011, 20:09
Thats the thing, you dont need to move every turn.

At 1500pts my army was: 120 Shoota Boyz, 30 Slugga boyz, 30 grots, big mek w/kff, battlewagon w/deffrolla, paint, riggers, shoota, armour, and 5 burnaboyz.


Well of course you were able to take a horde army to a tournament and finish the games. You weren't falling into the 'Orks = pure CC army' trap that so many newcomers and nono-Ork players view them as. IMHO, you're playing to the current strengths of the army.

Still I think my original comments hold, as the individuals who have the most problem in tournaments due to model count, are the ones that are trying to spam choppas.

massey
11-01-2011, 20:54
Orks can be very good. Of course, different builds will be strong in different tournaments. Tactics affect this as well. Personally (and I don't play orks), I hate playing against an ork player when there's a time limit. In football it's called a ball-control offense. They can grind the clock, and dictate how long the game is going to take. Unlike an IG or Marine player, who moves a handful of units and then shoots and he's done, and ork player can legitimately take ten minutes moving all of his models, without slow-playing it. Pretty soon, time is almost up, and you're still on turn 3. If the ork player has planned for this, he already has units sitting on objectives, or he's destroyed enough kill points so that he's in the lead.

Imagine the advantage of that. Your opponent thinks he's playing a 5 turn game, minimum, and plans for it. You know that the game isn't going to make it to turn 4, and you plan for that. But you're not wasting time, or appearing to be unsportsmanlike. You are moving your guys with deliberate speed, not stalling for time. You just have so many guys that you you're not gonna finish your game. Ever. It's a legit tactic. It's just one I hate playing against.

So yes, orks are effective. It's just my experience that a lot of ork players (like a lot of players in general) don't really think about what they're doing, and often lose because of it.

DuskRaider
11-01-2011, 22:31
Oh boo-hoo, I called IG & SW insta-win. Orks CAN be competitive, I have a great run of luck with my Dread Bash / Trukk list. A lot of combinations make for nasty headaches for your opponents, but it always comes down to having issues dealing with AV13 / AV14. Obviously, this poses problems for dealing with Land Raiders and some IG tanks (disregard Monoliths). The main key to playing Orks is making your opponent have a difficult time picking their priorities. Do I take out those 9 Kans now, or should I worry more about the Burnas in the Battlewagon? Should I attempt to take down their KFF, or be more concerned with those two Trukks full of Nobz heading for my front lines? Those Lootas are scary, but if I concentrate fire on them, the Boyz will be that much closer to my army. Things like that are what make Orks lethal.

Bonzai
12-01-2011, 14:19
Yeah, this topic has been beaten to death not to long ago. What it comes down to, is that some one wrote an article on a popular 40k blog that voiced an opinion that Orks sucked on paper. Never mind that they completely over looked or undervalued certain aspects of the army, and in their play tests. As a result, certain fan boys believe that since it was written, then it must be true. Never mind the fact that tournaments tend to show differently. They say that doesn't prove anything. Only this guys blog does. :rolleyes:

My experience proves differently, as I have some very strong Ork players in my area, and they can take on nearly anything. I say nearly, as now there are some builds that Space Wolves can manage that Orks have a real hard time with. However, that shouldn't be to bad of a strike against it, as Space Wolves are above the current power curve at the moment. In the past on these threads I have been challenged to provide proof that Orks are doing well at tournaments. Since then I have become aware of the rankings HQ website, and it has confirmed my belief. Orks are #4 in both the US and in Britain, who have the highest number of players.

Hicks
12-01-2011, 17:43
I think they are a really strong army. They can drown other armies with bodies and I don't think I've ever seen a unit as destructive and hard to kill as nob bikers.

They can't easily kill landraiders... but a landraider isn't going to kill 150 boys, even if it's shock full of termies and special characters.

GrogDaTyrant
12-01-2011, 18:24
They can't easily kill landraiders... but a landraider isn't going to kill 150 boys, even if it's shock full of termies and special characters.

No, but it can carry a 5-man unit of scouts and park directly on top of an objective for 6 turns. Sure, we can swarm it with PKs, or Deathrolla it. But that's not always an option, nor does it always work.

-GAZKUL-
12-01-2011, 18:28
mainly due to the low armour save, poor BS and In generally means that they can be reliably owned by just about anyone at anything, i bring 100+ orks to 1000 pt games purely for intimidation value and that hopfeully some of them won't be dead by turn 3. that and the general "yeah what the hell" approach favoured by most, the fact that ork armies are inherently unreliable means that well thought plans go down the ****hole at the last minuite.

FashaTheDog
12-01-2011, 19:34
I don't know, at 1,000 points I run a Warboss with a power klaw, Big Mek with burna, and 120 Boyz in four mobs of 30 each with a power klaw most people would be hard pressed to kill enough before I swamped them in the assault by sheer volume of attacks if I bums rushed their lines. There are some lists that stomp it like nobody's business, but most take all comers lists simply cannot kill enough to deal with the inevitable charge. I also spread out so templates do not remove 10 or more Orks at a time, which is something internet "wisdom" seems to assume is impossible for Orks to do. 1,000 points seems to be the minimum size I can make this Green Tide work in and while it's not the most efficient build for Orks, it does very well overall and is a nice change of pace from my other armies.

Vaktathi
12-01-2011, 22:08
mainly due to the low armour save, poor BS and In generally means that they can be reliably owned by just about anyone at anything, i bring 100+ orks to 1000 pt games purely for intimidation value and that hopfeully some of them won't be dead by turn 3. that and the general "yeah what the hell" approach favoured by most, the fact that ork armies are inherently unreliable means that well thought plans go down the ****hole at the last minuite.

This isn't exactly accurate. Yes Orks have a crappy save. So do Gaunts, Guardsmen, Kroot, Guardians, etc. Most people would consider the average Boy to be superior to these units. The 6pt Ork Boy is probably the most cost effective model in the game still, or at least highly rated in that regard. A 6pt Slugga boy is WS4 T4 with 4 attacks on a charge with Furious Charge. That's amazing for 6pts.

Likewise, yes Orks have crappy BS. They get a ton of shots and cheap firepower to compensate. 25 6pt BS2 Shoota Boyz will generally win a shooting war with 10 15pt BS4 Space Marines, or at worst be on par, with the ability to shoot at full effect and charge and be at an even greater advantage (likely winning combat by 3 or 4). Lootas are still one of the best firepower units in the game.

Neither of these things are really a reason why Orks have a tough time. It's why some players have a tough time with Orks, but the army itself is built rather well around these things.

The big things are Anti-Tank and No-Retreat. Not the 6+sv or BS2.

Moriarty
12-01-2011, 22:19
1,000 points seems to be the minimum size I can make this Green Tide work in and while it's not the most efficient build for Orks, it does very well overall and is a nice change of pace from my other armies.

Try 500pt games. Ork Green Tide works even better.

Winterfell
12-01-2011, 22:25
IMO its because between their crappy armor save, low int, and No Retreat! getting a mob of orks into CC with sufficient numbers to harm your enemy is an great uphill battle.

Most would say go mech but Trukks are notoriously fragile and their transport capacity is so low that any mob that has its transport blow up is easy pickings to get shot into oblivion or retreat.

Battlewagons are the best alternative but then your sacrificing heavy support slots and are only gaining a modest increase in transport capacity.

Green tide is seemingly the way to go then but as I say your going to take obscene casualties and probaly get into CC with around 12 boyz left if your lucky then they go first with higher init and you'll probably loose combat and be forced to take a ld test at -6 if you dont have to take the whipping of No Retreat! which just means your mob is sure to get anihilated next combat.

GrogDaTyrant
12-01-2011, 22:38
IMO its because between their crappy armor save, low int, and No Retreat! getting a mob of orks into CC with sufficient numbers to harm your enemy is an great uphill battle.

...

Green tide is seemingly the way to go then but as I say your going to take obscene casualties and probaly get into CC with around 12 boyz left if your lucky then they go first with higher init and you'll probably loose combat and be forced to take a ld test at -6 if you dont have to take the whipping of No Retreat! which just means your mob is sure to get anihilated next combat.

Try going Shoota Boys. The units that beat the tar out of them in CC, are the same ones that beat the tar out of choppa/slugga setup. Give a mob of Shootas the mandatory PK Nob, with a Bosspole, make sure they've got a grot screen and/or KFF, and they'll be as good as gold.

madden
12-01-2011, 23:06
Every time I run into orks I lose just so many bodies and diffrent units, so if I concentrate fire on one mob my other flank is swamped a green tide is nasty. To see why I started my own ork tide and as said the numbers are the winner though I always include a dread or two in my forces forcing my opponant into more choices shoot the dread with the melta or rapid fire the mob lose lose for him either way, and as to av13/14 claws from nobs and/or dreads do the job just fine if they hang back a lot use storm boyz because truks are to fragile and don't carry enough boyz to be worth it IMO.

WhatsHisName
13-01-2011, 02:53
I think at the right points orks are very competitive, it seem that 1500 is very good for orks but at 1750 they dont get that much harder (due to filling up there Heavys and HQs), but the standard 4BW 1500 list is a very strong one.

Ail-Shan
13-01-2011, 03:55
No, but it can carry a 5-man unit of scouts and park directly on top of an objective for 6 turns.

I have yet to see this. In fact, I have yet to see a marine list that fields squads of 5 scouts, and seem to rarely see marine lists with scouts at all. There's all this talk about land raiders being something orks cannot possibly deal with and so will mean that orks lose, but I've never seen it in practice, or even on an internet list. I doubt anyone would like to leave their assault termies out in the open to be shot up by orks (that many shots does hurt) just so that they can hopefully claim one objective, which would require the land raider to stay put centered on the objective so it couldn't be contested.

As for other vehicles, ork sufficiently cover the table so that they can still get in charge range of them by turn 4, and very few vehicles have the firepower to remove multiple squads of 30 orks, especially when they have cover.

silashand
13-01-2011, 04:00
Pulling off a tournament with a horde army of 150+ model count means having to rush through your movement. Using the 'measure closest and move the rest within reason' is practically mandatory and can easily lead to a dispute against a jerk opponent.

I faced a 208 model Ork army at Mechanicon and even though my opponent used the above method, we still only managed to complete four turns. Given the time limit of tournament games, I find horde armies just plain inappropriate.

Cheers, Gary

Latro_
13-01-2011, 10:42
never lost with my horde ork army.

If mechs an issue for orks and you dont have at least 2 units of lootas then its ye own fault :).

IMO A14 is the key struggle they have along with template heavy (esp flamer) armies.

GrogDaTyrant
13-01-2011, 15:36
I have yet to see this. In fact, I have yet to see a marine list that fields 5 squads of scouts, and seem to rarely see marine lists with scouts at all. There's all this talk about land raiders being something orks cannot possibly deal with and so will mean that orks lose, but I've never seen it in practice, or even on an internet list.

I've only seen Scouts used a handful of times, and usually just 5 for the turbo-scout guy. But the scouts themselves were not the focus of my post. I've seen people use Tac squads more, especially combat-squadded ones. A buddy of mine runs a Chaos list that does the same thing, except replace tac squads with berzerkers.

Regardless, the end result is the same. Here's an extra Land Raider that's now scoring, parked directly on an objective (and having arrived their usually by tank-shocking whatever was there before). You can't contest it due to the size of the Land Raider, and you get to hope for a destroyed result from your PKs (1/18 chance from any given hit).


Again, it's not flawless. Yes there are ways to deal with it, and for Orks that consists of Deathrollas, Tankhammers, and PKs. And who cares if it's a "net-list"? :rolleyes: A bike-themed Ork army with 5 mobs of Warbikes, 3 deathkoptas (total), and 1 nob bike mob with no wound allocation abuse, isn't an "Internet List" either. And it has performed surprisingly well for me, provided my opponent isn't tailoring their list to be a jerk.

Decius
13-01-2011, 16:28
My ork hoard army used to suffer from long movement phases so I got some great movement trays. They're called battle wagons. :p

Also, as an ork player that uses primarily slugga boys I can say that there are merits to using shoota boys. I liked slugga boys because they were only good at close combat, which made my decisions simpler for me. Unfortunately, there are times when slugga boys are faced with the prospect of charging units that are much better at close combat. It's my repeated suffering from situations like this that has made me finally consider trying out shoota boys. If they work, then I'll be faced with modding my 100+ sluggas. :cries:

GrogDaTyrant
13-01-2011, 16:50
It's my repeated suffering from situations like this that has made me finally consider trying out shoota boys. If they work, then I'll be faced with modding my 100+ sluggas. :cries:

Start preparing now. The difference between the single-purpose slugga/choppas, and the versatile shootas, is night and day. What really surprised me, was realizing that the units consistently beating the Shootas in combat, were the same that beat Slugga/Choppas.

It is generally recommended to still have at least one mob of slugga/choppa. I prefer not to, but I do recognize how devestating it can be to have both unit types working together against a single target.

razormasticator
13-01-2011, 16:54
I have problems dealing with LR's with my guard list which has buttloads of melta.
So I would love to hear good theories on how to deal with LR's with Orks.

Once you factor in things like cover saves, smoke, bad die rolls etc. you really only get 2 or 3 chances per game to pop a land raider.

It took me 3 turns to pop 1 land raider and damage another at Ard Boys in 09 with Chimelta Vets. I think I counted and had something in excess of 20 melta gun shots on one of those land raiders. and I didnt pop it till last turn of the game.

So maybe its just me and my struggles with the might land raider, but I would love to hear some theories. Maybe this isnt the place, maybe I should post this in Ork Tactika

razormasticator
13-01-2011, 16:55
My ork hoard army used to suffer from long movement phases so I got some great movement trays. They're called battle wagons. :p

Also, as an ork player that uses primarily slugga boys I can say that there are merits to using shoota boys. I liked slugga boys because they were only good at close combat, which made my decisions simpler for me. Unfortunately, there are times when slugga boys are faced with the prospect of charging units that are much better at close combat. It's my repeated suffering from situations like this that has made me finally consider trying out shoota boys. If they work, then I'll be faced with modding my 100+ sluggas. :cries:

Alas, Black Reach has no Shoota boys.

Ail-Shan
13-01-2011, 17:39
Again, it's not flawless. Yes there are ways to deal with it, and for Orks that consists of Deathrollas, Tankhammers, and PKs. And who cares if it's a "net-list"? A bike-themed Ork army with 5 mobs of Warbikes, 3 deathkoptas (total), and 1 nob bike mob with no wound allocation abuse, isn't an "Internet List" either. And it has performed surprisingly well for me, provided my opponent isn't tailoring their list to be a jerk.

Let me clarify. I was meaning that I haven't seen small squads of scouts that could go in a land raider, even on lists posted on warhammer forums.

Obviously you could combat squad a tactical squad to put in a land raider, but I'd find this rare. Usually a land raider is taken with a specific purpose, such as transporting assault terminators, bezerkers or something similar. I'd think that it is tactically inadvisable to replace the squad that the land raider should be transporting in the hope that you'll hold one extra objective.

This is especially the case when you're playing multi-objective since the orks will be far more able to beat down your army which is lacking one of its main combat units, which allows them to take more objectives than the one your land raider has. I'd think that this would only work on castling, and even then you're likely to get a draw assuming there is a smallish grot squad in the back holding the objective.

My point is that land raiders are not that big of an issue to orks because they aren't that big of a threat.

Anyway, I can also attest to the power of shoota boyz. One of the few ork armies I face only uses shoota boyz with claw nobz and 2 grot squads as screens/objective holders. It's a pain because as Eldar I can't sit back and shoot or I die, but I can't really go up and assault or I die. The number of shots they get is just painful.

Dakkagor
13-01-2011, 17:55
Stuff landraiders. Seriously, If I had a penny for every raider my orks have nobbled in 5th, I could afford atleast a mars bar. . .and I don't play marines that often.

The basic tactic with orks has always been, and will always be, shoot the stuff you can't or won't attack in melee, kill everything else in melee. Ork shooting exists to suppress your opponent and limit his mobility, so you can take the initiative and beat him to death with it.

Using orks, I managed to win my tournament group at 2,000pts, the knockout stages at 2,500pts, and the final at 1.5k. I beat guard, marines, tau, nids and orks to get to the top, so I don't think orks are uncompetitive at all.

As for time, Ravenous hit it on the head. Know the rules, know how your army plays, and don't dawdle. Roll fast, explain what you are doing every step of the way, and you can't go far wrong. My 'rules patter' as I play and chuck handfuls of dice is probably one of my strongest traits as an ork player :evilgrin:

The Highlander
13-01-2011, 18:30
I have problems dealing with LR's with my guard list which has buttloads of melta.
So I would love to hear good theories on how to deal with LR's with Orks.

Once you factor in things like cover saves, smoke, bad die rolls etc. you really only get 2 or 3 chances per game to pop a land raider.

It took me 3 turns to pop 1 land raider and damage another at Ard Boys in 09 with Chimelta Vets. I think I counted and had something in excess of 20 melta gun shots on one of those land raiders. and I didnt pop it till last turn of the game.

So maybe its just me and my struggles with the might land raider, but I would love to hear some theories. Maybe this isnt the place, maybe I should post this in Ork Tactika

Simple, charge it with a warboss with a power klaw, some kans or a dread. Easy to do (since itís sitting still on an objective), hits automatically with lots of attacks and S10 will shift any Land Raiders without too much trouble. And since they are using over 300 point of units just to occupy an objective you should be able to deal with the rest of their army. Just drown them in orks!

Moriarty
13-01-2011, 22:22
Alas, Black Reach has no Shoota boys.

Plastic tubing is your friend. Availably from all good model shops, pick a diameter that matches your slugga. Cut the slugga barrel, glue a length of tube to the stump, then glue the end of the slugga back on. Remove choppa and admire the shoota boy created.

shabbadoo
13-01-2011, 22:33
Having read a few threads on another forum where people are saying this, I'm wondering if anyone can give me a reasoned explanation of why they think Orks are an uncompetitve army.

As it is not poor form at all, post links to the threads on this "other forum".

magnum12
13-01-2011, 23:41
Orks being uncompetitive is complete rubbish. Okay, so they're not top tier like Guard, Wolves, and maybe Dark Eldar (contested with Blood Angels ), but they're SOLIDLY high tier. Note: I use a 5 rank system assuming overall codex power.

So far, the approximate power levels are like this.

Top: Imperial Guard, Space Wolves, Dark Eldar (contested).

High: Blood Angels (contested), Orks, Space Marines

Mid: Tyranids (borderline high as they're very strong but require finesse), Chaos Space Marines, Eldar, Black Templar (contested)

Low: Witch Hunters (contested), Chaos Daemons, Tau

Bottom: Dark Angels, Daemon Hunters, Necron.

IJW
14-01-2011, 13:40
You can't contest it due to the size of the Land Raider,
Given that Land Raiders are less than 6" wide and models that charge a vehicle stay in BtB after the assault, why can't you contest?

If the objective is very near the table edge or impassible terrain, or there are also other enemy units around, sure - but a Land Raider by itself can't stop you contesting.

massey
14-01-2011, 17:50
Given that Land Raiders are less than 6" wide and models that charge a vehicle stay in BtB after the assault, why can't you contest?

If the objective is very near the table edge or impassible terrain, or there are also other enemy units around, sure - but a Land Raider by itself can't stop you contesting.

Especially if you place the objectives near an object. Place it next to a tree. This can prevent the Land Raider from centering itself on top of it. Or use an objective that is more than a poker chip. If you have a pile of ammo boxes as your objective, a vehicle can't park on top of it.

Orks have Deff Rollas and Power Klaws. Armor 14 is expensive. It's tough to spam so much AV 14 that Orks can't deal with it. And if you do manage it, you're a 1 trick pony and will probably lose to someone else.

Moriarty
14-01-2011, 22:49
Orks, however, find it relativly simple to spam AV14. BW in HS, BW in Elite and BW in Troops if you take a Warboss as HQ.

FashaTheDog
14-01-2011, 23:04
Still has a rear armor of 10, unlike those much more expensive Land Raiders, which allows opposing Orks armies the ability to deal with it easily.

Pacific
15-01-2011, 01:41
I don't think Orks are underpowered at all! I would say I've had more losses than wins against them, and you certainly never get the 'landslide' wins against them that you can sometimes get if the dice roll well against glass-hammer type armies.

There is a frightening level of detail concerning army composition which you see throughout various blogs, but to be honest I know a few guys who play them, don't adhere to any of that or at least follow it closely, and yet they still seem to do well in most of their games. As has been said, I suppose a lot comes down to where you play and what kind of environment it is.

TheMav80
15-01-2011, 03:42
Orks being uncompetitive is complete rubbish. Okay, so they're not top tier like Guard, Wolves, and maybe Dark Eldar (contested with Blood Angels ), but they're SOLIDLY high tier. Note: I use a 5 rank system assuming overall codex power.

So far, the approximate power levels are like this.

Top: Imperial Guard, Space Wolves, Dark Eldar (contested).

High: Blood Angels (contested), Orks, Space Marines

Mid: Tyranids (borderline high as they're very strong but require finesse), Chaos Space Marines, Eldar, Black Templar (contested)

Low: Witch Hunters (contested), Chaos Daemons, Tau

Bottom: Dark Angels, Daemon Hunters, Necron.

Tau that low? Haha! They may only have one build, but it is great.

Reflex
15-01-2011, 09:03
Orks are not rubbish... as a statement as such, is rubbish.

Orks are hard as nails. they have a few good lists, but i think what makes people feel orks are poor form is that you loose so many models. Every ork army i have faced has been thrown to the grinder and lost 70-90% of models by the end of the game. They still win, either sitting on objectives or completely wiping you.

But, since AoBR came out ive seen alot of newer players hitting the orks and I have to say, its easier to wield a power armored super human then a poorly armored boy.

DeviantApostle
15-01-2011, 15:24
I've ranted enough about the problems I have with the Ork Codex and I'm not going to continue. Despite those niggles, which are comparitively minor, I have to say that the Ork Codex is one of the more powerful and better balanced of all the codices. If you can't win with Orks, you either have a build problem, a competance issue or you're playing an opponent that's tooling up specifically to fight your army. They're also not one-build wonders either.

AV 14 is very hard for everyone to deal with in this edition, even my DE have problems with Land Raiders when I'm packing 10+ S8 Lance shots.

On the other hand, if you allow Forge World, I think they pretty much solved the Ork's anti-armour difficulties.

MrGiggles
16-01-2011, 03:38
I've certainly done alright with my Orks. They're certainly not an auto-win button and they do have issues with some units like Land Raiders and high initiative assault units. The other part though is that they tend to be a pretty good rock to the scissors of the folks that stock up on things like meltaguns and other high strength, low AP shooting. Heck, the last couple of tournaments I attended, I brought Chaos lists and kind of shook my head since I'd have eaten pretty much every army I faced alive with my Orks.

That rather brings in the largest issue I have with bringing my Orks to a tourney though, the sheer model count. As folks here have indicated, if you're brining a horde of any kind to a tourney and you want to be a good opponent, you've got to be on the ball and able to move your army around quickly. I'll freely admit that there are folks out there who are better at dealing with a horde on the table than I am, but I do alright when I put my mind to it. That's the kicker though. I work all week and I like to relax on my weekends. After a full week of work, pushing a couple hundred models round a table; well, it may not be 'work' per se, but it sure feels like it. That's the main reason I just borrowed some Chaos for my last couple of tournaments; I just didn't feel like going to the work of managing the horde.

fwacho
16-01-2011, 15:35
Simple, charge it with a warboss with a power klaw, some kans or a dread. Easy to do (since itís sitting still on an objective), hits automatically with lots of attacks and S10 will shift any Land Raiders without too much trouble. And since they are using over 300 point of units just to occupy an objective you should be able to deal with the rest of their army. Just drown them in orks!

Exactly how to do it. a nob on charge wih power claw has str 9. that can do the trick too. for example a nob squad with power claws shold be able to kill even one that moved.

uhmnabra
17-01-2011, 21:15
Still waiting for someone to kill 180 boys is a 1700pts battle. Usually about 90 will start kicking your ass until nothing is left.

Xandros
17-01-2011, 23:41
Not gonna read the thread.

Orks are thought not to be competitive because....nothing is. It's a demented standard where only stormshield termies and mechanized guard apply.

It's an attempt to quantify relative effectiveness based upon logical assertions without rational basis.

FashaTheDog
18-01-2011, 06:15
Still waiting for someone to kill 180 boys is a 1700pts battle. Usually about 90 will start kicking your ass until nothing is left.

Damn straight. For 1515 points, I get Ghazghkull and six 30 strong mobs of Boys, each with a power klaw armed nob, less points with a regular warboss. Not too many armies can handle that, especially since a turn 2 charge is quite possible, while the next turn is practically guaranteed. with two or three shooting phases, dropping enough to win is something most armies just can't do.