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View Full Version : Would you VS me if i proxy...?



Far Seer
13-01-2011, 01:12
Ok so i've made an army list and i just want to see how it runs before i buy all the stuff i need. So would you still play a game with me if i did this:

Use 10 tactical marines as 10 assault marines, missile launcher dude and flamer dude count as holding meltaguns, sergeant (who has a PW and bolt pistol) counts as having PF.

Use tau fire warriors as assault marines who hold meltaguns

4 howling banshees that count as vanguard veterans who have lightning claws, 4 terminators (from AOBR) that count as veterans with stormshields

Striking scorpions as assault marines
Space marine captain(counts as librarian)
Dante (counts as librarian)
8 fire warriors (counts as honour guard with melta guns)
2 ork boyz in honour guard that count as sanguinary novitiate
corbulo and a SM terminator sergeant(counts as sanguinary priests)

Pretty crazy stuff huh?
I have around 35 assault marines so i can mix them up between all the squads. Ok i'm gonna take a guess and say my opponent would take one look at my army and say no. How about you? I could always show you my army list before the game and explain what counts as what.

Angelust
13-01-2011, 01:16
I would say no, because remembering all of the proxies would give me a headache.

I wouldn't really have a problem playing against a bunch of nickels and pogs though, if you used a marker and put T for tacticals, SP for Sanguinary Priests, MG for Melta Gunners, AS for Assault Squads, etc.If you're just trying it out, I think it's fine to give you a feel for the units.

Heck, even printing a small sheet of little pictures would be better then a Blood Angel force from like 5 different armies.

impala
13-01-2011, 01:16
If you and I were regular gaming buddies, and you gave me a printed list of what's what, no problems. If I meet you at a store for a pickup game, I might have some issues. But this is for friendlies, to see how you want to do it. Your regular buddies shouldn't have an issue.

Deus Mechanicus
13-01-2011, 01:18
Eh..... no

Etienne de Beaugard
13-01-2011, 01:19
I would play you, but I'd almost rather see blank bases with labels.

When using proxies before purchase, it is courteous to use a single unit type in place of another unit type. If I read correctly, you are using tactical marines, fire warriors, and striking scorpions to represent assault marines. To make matters worse, you are using fire warriors to also represent honor guard. I would find this very distracting during game play, and I would probably not enjoy the game.

Seriously, get a good friend who understands the situation and try blank bases or cardboard chits.

carldooley
13-01-2011, 01:19
that would be fine with me. A normal day playing 40k with my normal opponents. My one cardinal rule when people are proxying though, is that they have to write down everything that they are subbing for something else - and not dock me for it when I refer to it during the game.

"My broadside knocks off your rhino and then my defiler removes the squad that it was carrying with its battle cannon."
"I thought that the broadside was a demon prince?"
"No, that was last game. The defiler is a Hammerhead, but thank you for reminding me - it has disruption pods."
"Dangit, you gotta write this stuff down!"

Jonnycron
13-01-2011, 01:25
I'd be fine, after all you wouldnt want to waste money on an army your not happy with. Just make sure your opponents know what's what!

Born Again
13-01-2011, 01:33
That is an over-the-top proxy. If you were a regular opponent that I was friendly with, then I would let you do it ONCE to try things out, but that's it.

Axeman1n
13-01-2011, 01:43
I would not play you unless you made an effort to model the proxy with some tape and paper labels. One of my proxy pet peeves is the Assault marines modeled as marines. If you had cut out some paper and taped it to their backs, in the shape of jump packs, i'd be okay with it.

sic
13-01-2011, 02:02
Sorry bud but I would have to say no. Its just too much to keep track of, like others have said its too many different races and sorts of units representing different stuff.

Lothlanathorian
13-01-2011, 02:11
If you and I were regular gaming buddies, and you gave me a printed list of what's what, no problems. If I meet you at a store for a pickup game, I might have some issues. But this is for friendlies, to see how you want to do it. Your regular buddies shouldn't have an issue.

Exactly this.

self biased
13-01-2011, 02:19
why not? just make a few notes and off we go. so long as it's reasonably clear what's what and things don't mysteriously change armament during battle. while it's nice to have fully painted and assembled armies, i wonder what people do if they want to try out something new and don't have the models on hand...

Inquisitor_Tolheim
13-01-2011, 02:28
I'm going to say the same thing I say every time one of these threads pops up:

The opinions of the people on warseer mean nothing. Go ask your gaming group. If they say yes then you're fine, if they say no then it doesn't matter if everyone on the Internet thinks you're cool, you still are not going to get many games.

lumiya
13-01-2011, 05:06
If you and I were regular gaming buddies, and you gave me a printed list of what's what, no problems. If I meet you at a store for a pickup game, I might have some issues.

This. I've done this a few times with my friends when testing out new things, and they were fine with it. However, I wouldn't try this for a pickup game

Far Seer
13-01-2011, 05:25
yeh i reckon i should just stick labels on everything, thanks for the replies guys, gave me an overall view:)

Colonel Kolm
13-01-2011, 05:29
id say if you know the group your playing with and you ask ahead of time you shouldnt have any issues but for someone you dont know or a competitive game i wouldnt try it

d6juggernaut
13-01-2011, 05:52
We all have to playtest occasionally before we make purchases, so I'm usually quite fine with proxies. But your models seem a bit messy, so give me a detailed army list and we're good.

Lord Damocles
13-01-2011, 10:07
I'd say 'Hell no'.


Using Tactical Marines, Fire Warriors, AND Striking Scorpions as Assault Marines just adds an extra level of complication over what would otherwise be a confusing situation.

Using Terminators as Veterans also means that they would be on the wrong size bases.


If you have Tactical Marines, Terminators, Assault Marines, and several Marine characters, why not just make a reasonably representitive army? You'll still be able to see how individual units work, and your opponants might not be reduced to broken, gibbering shells.

sigur
13-01-2011, 10:57
If we'd been friends for years, the game isn't too large and you assure me that you only want to try out stuff this once and will get a proper army lateron and I know that you don't pull stuff like that all the time, I'd say yes.

If you were someone I don't really know but we agreed to have a game some time and you show up with an army like that I'd comment on it and grin to myself but wouldn't leave simply out of politeness, probably won't remember it as a great game though.

If you really play like that, I'm sure that your opponents will find it helpful if you at least marked the bases with different colour codes so the other guy knows what is what. That should improve the overall experience a whole lot.

Is "to versus somebody" (especially in VS form) a proper verb at all? Not so sure about that.

AndrewGPaul
13-01-2011, 11:23
No, it isn't. "Would you play me if I proxy" would be a better title.

"thanks for the replies guys, gave me an overall view "

Given that the replies have covered the entire spectrum from, "never" to "of course", I'm not sure it's a useful set of answers. :)

As you say it's only to try out an army before you spend the money, it seems reasonable to me. I'm not usually sympathetic to the "but I might get confused" responses - it's not an effort to remember that all of them are Assault Marines except for this group, and you can always ask which specific model represents what.

Godzooky
13-01-2011, 11:38
Hmmm, that rag-tag mixture of models sounds more poxy than proxy to me.

Wouldn't it be easier, both for you and your opponent, to just use slotta-sized pieces of card or paper with the troop types written upon them?

AndrewGPaul
13-01-2011, 11:49
Cutting out 40 card circles sounds a lot more work than just rounding up the 40 miniatures nearest to hand and using those. :)

Godzooky
13-01-2011, 11:57
Cutting out 40 card circles sounds a lot more work than just rounding up the 40 miniatures nearest to hand and using those. :)

Yeah, but also far less likely to give your opponent a migraine. :D

Inquisitor Kallus
13-01-2011, 11:59
I remember back when I was young using the black and white mail order pictures out the back of White Dwarf as 'model reps' for models I didn't yet have. Id mount them on thick card and attach them to a base, that way you got a representation of the shape of the model from the front and back. Unfortunately they dont do that anymore.

I don't think id mind playing you using proxys but i would imagine it'd get confusing. The idea of bases with card 'figures' and their names on them in bold might help, as the hobby is a very visual thing and i think 'flat bases' may not give you that height and width visual cue that is pretty well a must in wargaming of this type.

AndrewGPaul
13-01-2011, 12:07
If gaming is giving you a migraine, I'd suggest seeing a neurologist. It's probably a symptom of something more serious.

Memnos
13-01-2011, 12:10
We used to use testor's paints to proxy models when I got in to it.

I'm a little beyond that, now, but I recognize not everyone has the money to drop £200+ on an army.

Godzooky
13-01-2011, 12:17
If gaming is giving you a migraine, I'd suggest seeing a neurologist. It's probably a symptom of something more serious.

You're giving me a migraine!

Get off my case, man! :D

Major_Manny
13-01-2011, 12:23
I would rather ***** in my hands and clap than play against that proxy list lol. Like others said, probs best just using bases with lables or........just buy the models and take the chance

Godzooky
13-01-2011, 12:26
We used to use testor's paints to proxy models when I got in to it.

I see, so you were a playtestor, eh?

At least your models had some paint on/in them. :D

Blink
13-01-2011, 13:11
I would allow you to proxy no problem. I don't have the same problems other people seem to about not being able to remember your proxies. It helps to label them, sure, but I plan ahead when I play and know what's where without much regard to what the models LOOK like.

Blink
13-01-2011, 13:13
Yeah, I honestly don't see why so many people have a problem with it.

Gav2k
13-01-2011, 13:30
Ive done things similar to yourself while proxying, although admittedly not as OTT! :P So me saying "no" would be hypocritical, and I understand the need to try before you buy.

theunwantedbeing
13-01-2011, 13:38
No, I would not let you use all that against me unless you were the only person to play against (but only because you have a list of what's what for me).

Without that list you wouldn't get a game.

I would rather you used paint pots personally, colour co-ordinated of course.
They work very well as marine stand-ins, almost too well infact.

ColShaw
13-01-2011, 14:16
Proxies always bug me. I'd probably play against you, but it wouldn't be my first choice.

Bunnahabhain
13-01-2011, 15:35
No.

There are simply too many units to keep track of in there, many of which don't fit with the the thing they are portraying. Far too confusing, even with a guide.

You want to run say, sniper scouts, but don't have any? Use normal scouts- so long as there are no other normal scouts in use, or use some ratlings or eldar rangers.

That way, you look at the unit, and either think 'Scouts' or 'Snipers' straight away. Far less confusing.

In this list, there are fire warriors counting as both honour Guard and assault marines. Not only do they not suggest honour guard or assault marine to me, having the same unit represent both is a very bad idea.

Charistoph
13-01-2011, 19:36
No.

There are simply too many units to keep track of in there, many of which don't fit with the the thing they are portraying. Far too confusing, even with a guide.

You want to run say, sniper scouts, but don't have any? Use normal scouts- so long as there are no other normal scouts in use, or use some ratlings or eldar rangers.

That way, you look at the unit, and either think 'Scouts' or 'Snipers' straight away. Far less confusing.

In this list, there are fire warriors counting as both honour Guard and assault marines. Not only do they not suggest honour guard or assault marine to me, having the same unit represent both is a very bad idea.

Pretty much this. One type of model should be consistant in proxying across the board, and not mix, period.

I could work with 3 variations of Assault Marines, but when one of the model types are being used for something else, it's annoyingly sloppy and not worth the time.

Just be consistent, and you should be fine.

jack da greenskin
13-01-2011, 20:22
why not? just make a few notes and off we go. so long as it's reasonably clear

I don't think this is reasonably clear. As said, using 50 different units counting as similar and different units is not only a headache, but makes for a slow, agonising game.

Bases, carboard cut-outs on bases, paper accessories, etc etc would be nicer, more courtious and not quite as pikeyish.

You cant test out an army over the course of the 3 games people would let you use this army. Go get the models, build them, with blu tac if necessary, then edit your list when you're finished.


If your friends are ok with this, however, then fairplay to them, and ignore my comments.

If anyone tried to use this level of proxy on me, I'd probably call it quits. I've seen a guy use a movement tray with dice on it to count down models, and I am perfectly alright with that, but not with the models you've stated.

magicmonkey
13-01-2011, 20:40
most people i know would say no. try minimal and realistic proxies formore success. tacs marine as assualts is fine if it is only tacs as only assualts. or once i made paper wings for a hive tyrant to consider buying some wings. people disliked it but 2 weeks later i bought proper wings and 3 weeks later it was a proper flyrant. just remembver that you only buy a few things and only proxy a few things at a time.

Depulsor
13-01-2011, 20:41
Sure I would... maybe not with my normal army, but with my "mechanized-Guard-army-from-Hell", which i would proxy on the fly with a few coins from my wallet. :angel::shifty::evilgrin:

Superkid
14-01-2011, 01:27
My group scanned in plastic bases, whited out a square in the middle of them, printed them on a sheet of paper (we're able to fit 60+ on a sheet) cut them out, and write whats on what base, that way it right there in black and white. We can try out different stuff and not worry about whats what, and unless anyone sets down a book or breathes too hard its all good

Inquisitor Gabriel Ashe
14-01-2011, 01:34
The first line I was okay with. The second line was "eh... okay." Below that was just too much.

TheLaughingGod
14-01-2011, 01:39
No. Also "VS" is not correct usage of the abbreviated term and sounds stupid.

TimLeeson
14-01-2011, 02:15
I'd play you, but with my bad memory id find it difficult to keep track of personally.

I wont tell you how to do your army, its your army, but the way I do my "counts as" armies is I tend to pick a low amount of units. For example, my Ulumeathi are 17 models using a wolfterminator list, with only 3 different types of units - I find a low count like that is far easier for the opponent to keep track of. I also usually print out the army list so they can see it, incase they get confused. So perhaps cut down the number of unit's or do a print-out.

carlisimo
14-01-2011, 03:37
Iíd say keep the experimenting to your gaming group of close friends, who will understand that itís temporary and will help you buy an army that will be fun to play against in the future. Itís almost like an investment of their time. Inflicting that on strangers wouldn't be as easy to justify (unless they do the same).

The whole point of 40k is the models. The game itself isnít even that greatÖ it mostly just looks good. If not for that, Iíd just play video games.

orkz222
14-01-2011, 04:17
Yes, if you can remember your proxies when I ask you.

To be honest, I played against worse proxies armies compared to the ones you listed, yours is not too bad as there are distinction between various unit types. Except the fire warrior as honour guard and assault marines.

The Inevitable One
14-01-2011, 04:25
To avoid any confusion between you and your opponent, I would write/print a list the units out on a sheet of paper, cut them out, and place them next to each squad.


No. Also "VS" is not correct usage of the abbreviated term and sounds stupid.

Can we just stick to being nice and just say no, rather than criticize him?

Gatsby
14-01-2011, 04:52
No


Can we just stick to being nice and just say no, rather than criticize him?

but we need more words to reply...

SPYDER68
14-01-2011, 05:49
I would!..................If i knew you...

Ive used an entire Dark Eldar army with blood angels and orks..

ive seen Tau played with marines..


Of course, this was among friends, and its a better way to test an army or unit before purchasing.


Don't expect for this to work for a random game with somone though.

Blink
14-01-2011, 19:46
People care WAY too much about what models look like. It's ridiculous. There are only 2 things anyone needs to know: What they are, and WHERE they are... Information easily given and easily marked. If you can't remember what is what with him, have him write on a scrap piece of paper what they are and have him keep that piece of paper in front of each proxied unit facing you. That's all you need to know to play them and is hardly an inconvenience.

Charistoph
14-01-2011, 21:25
The main "inconvenience" being that the OP was having 2 units of the same model representing 2 very different units, especially when can use another set of models that won't be split up like that to represent them.

TheLaughingGod
15-01-2011, 03:11
People care WAY too much about what models look like. It's ridiculous. There are only 2 things anyone needs to know: What they are, and WHERE they are... Information easily given and easily marked. If you can't remember what is what with him, have him write on a scrap piece of paper what they are and have him keep that piece of paper in front of each proxied unit facing you. That's all you need to know to play them and is hardly an inconvenience.

No we don't "Care WAY too much"

If you didn't care, why don't you just play with pennies or chess pieces? Why play a miniature wargame at all?

I play this game because I DO care about the lore and the little models as much (if not more) than the rules and the game itself.

So yeah, I care. Because otherwise we're just playing green army men versus tan army men.

Blink
15-01-2011, 06:49
The main "inconvenience" being that the OP was having 2 units of the same model representing 2 very different units, especially when can use another set of models that won't be split up like that to represent them.

As long as they're labeled like I said, I really couldn't care less what he uses. He could use army men or chess pieces for everything for all I care.


So yeah, I care. Because otherwise we're just playing green army men versus tan army men.

You ARE just playing with green army men versus tan army men...


If you didn't care, why don't you just play with pennies or chess pieces? Why play a miniature wargame at all?

Primarily to support the Games Workshop industry so people like you can continue to buy pieces and paint them to enjoy a stalled and progress devoid lore.

That's not to say I don't like bits of it either, but I play this game to... play the game. What a concept, right? There's an organized group of people who actively participate in this hobby at a venue to compete in a far more intricate scope than with something like Risk, which has no group of organized people and a venue.

The guy wants to try out his list to see if those are the models he wants to buy. He will eventually have the pieces to appease your nugatory aesthetic taste. Meet him half way in the meantime.

bluemage
15-01-2011, 14:07
If we were friends I'd let you do this once. But if this was a random pickup game I'd be pissed.

Born Again
16-01-2011, 10:33
So I played a game today that was relevant to this thread... a Dark Eldar army that contained only 1 Dark Eldar model... which was a proxy itself. Wych as a beastmaster, Vampire Counts bat swarm as Razorwings (fair enough considering there's no models available), a SM Land Speeder as a Venom, and a bunch of LOTR Orcs (I think? Not 100% on what the models actually were) representing both Incubi and Khymera, in a kill team mission so models were moving around and not in distinct units... which Orcs were Incubi and Khymera magically swapped back and forth several times through the game. Whether it be as a result of the owning player "cheating" or through honest forgetfulness and confusion, it seems like a good example of why such a thing is a bad idea.




Primarily to support the Games Workshop industry so people like you can continue to buy pieces and paint them to enjoy a stalled and progress devoid lore.


Thank you. I appreciate your thoughtfulness.

Far Seer
16-01-2011, 10:47
Ok how about i do this. I colour code all my guys, so i'd write my army list with say 10 x Assault marines(red)-2 meltaguns(yellow),sergeant with PF(orange), i would then stick a piece of tape one the models that colour corresponds with whatever they represent. So in the unit of 10 assault marines, there would be 7 with red tape, 2 with yellow tape and 1 with orange tape. Obviously i would have to frequently show my opponent my army list so that he can check what is what. But the majority of my army are the right, blood angel models, so it's only about 20 that i need to colour code.

andyg2006
16-01-2011, 11:03
I think even that would be too complicated and there's too many proxies.

Even when people are using 'counts as' armies, it's easy to see who is who because they have the same equipment as the guys they are replacing. However, your guys don't seem to have any of this going on which -as an opponent- makes it really hard to know what you're playing against and (without slowing the game right down) it'd be virtually impossible to keep track of things (e.g. if you'd said "I showed you my army at the start of the game and you're supposed to remember").

If you're trying to work out what to use before you buy (sensible choice), why not borrow models off other people so that you can make up a consistent army?

Plasticard (or even cereal card) and blu-tack costs next to nothing, so you could at least try to convert them like what they are using (eg storm shields).
Even doing something like cutting off a sword and replacing it with a tacked-on power fist would be very helpful (plus you can swap them back when you finally decide what you want to use.

I play Guard (amongst others) and have loads of infantry squads....what works for me really well is that the models have what they are carrying and I paint the rims of their bases a different colour for each squad.
Why not use this for each proxied squad (eg everyone in one squad gets blue base rims, another gets red, another has green, etc)? Then all an opponent has to do is ask "What's in green squad?" (or even make a copy of your lists so that they can refer to it).

If you only have (eg) sergeants with power weapons and you are trying different options, why not just use them as sergeants with power weapons..?

Alternatively, just play a series of games (eg 500pts) so that you can cut down on "what-counts-as-what" and try out your units, but it'll be less to keep track of.

Bunnahabhain
16-01-2011, 11:06
Ok how about i do this. I colour code all my guys, so i'd write my army list with say 10 x Assault marines(red)-2 meltaguns(yellow),sergeant with PF(orange), i would then stick a piece of tape one the models that colour corresponds with whatever they represent. So in the unit of 10 assault marines, there would be 7 with red tape, 2 with yellow tape and 1 with orange tape. Obviously i would have to frequently show my opponent my army list so that he can check what is what. But the majority of my army are the right, blood angel models, so it's only about 20 that i need to colour code.

If all bar 20 models are the right blood angel models, with the right significant wargear, it is a rather different matter. It's not half such a mess as you made out in your first post.

From that list of spare stuff, surely you must be able to to come up with 20ish matching models - ie 10 boys mobs, led by nob with klaw, and two boys with special weapon.

Tebrey
16-01-2011, 11:31
No.

But I would loan you an army to use that didn't have to proxy so you could test it.