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bonertron
13-01-2011, 21:51
My old Warhammer group is hosting a tournament in a couple of weeks, and I have been excited to bring my Vampires. I spent hours making a killer list, with Mannfred and a whopping +6 to cast (7 on invo on Skeletons!). Only to have my dreams shattered, because the tournament has banned special characters, due to Teclis being so OP. My friend is totally screwed, because his Chaos Troll list cannot work, and he is reduced to playing his only other army, Tomb Kings.

Are special characters really that awful? With sniping spells, no guess ranges on war machines, can people really not figure out how to kill Teclis? Granted, he can win games on his own, but it's not THAT hard to kill him.

Allowing no special characters basically makes some armies have nothing against steam tanks, greater demons and all that lot.

Should we not just be playing the game the way GW made it to play? I know they REALLY messed up with the 8th ed rules, but allowing no special characters really hinders some armies, and makes some unplayable... Not to mention, taking some of the uniqueness out of armies.

Thoughts?

Lord Inquisitor
13-01-2011, 22:01
Heh, I saw that combo for Mannfred too. Fun, if insanely expensive. Effectively level 6!

There's a short list of special characters that are actually problematic in tournaments, but TO's often prefer to just blanket ban special characters because it is simply less hassle than trying to sift through them all.

Ultimately, you can still play your army using Mannfred as a normal Vampire Lord without too much hassle. The problem of only being able to field a "proper" troll army with Throgg is a much more legitimate complaint, and I would encourage your friend to contact the TO directly to make a request for exception because his army has essentially been disqualified (although with the new restrictions, you can make a convincing Troll army without Throgg with 50% of your points spent on Trolls, you just need to fill out that 25% core first, but if you have a genuinely all-troll army this is problematic). That said, Throgg himself is pretty obscene these days with a once-per-game 3D6 automatic S5 hits in combat with no armour save... He's probably the best SC in the WoC book I would say.

In general I find that most tournaments I see do allow SCs these days but some (Teclis, Kairos, etc) are routinely being banned.

jimbo2
13-01-2011, 23:17
My group's never allowed Special Characters, we always felt it unfluffy to see the likes of Teclis and Settra showing up everytime there was a tiny little 2,500point battle, these guys have far more to be doing than showing up for every small scale border skirmish. I seem to recall in some of the old editions weren't they only allowed if both players agreed as well?

TMATK
13-01-2011, 23:24
You should have checked before you spent hours on your list. It's very common for SCs to be banned at tournaments.

Malorian
13-01-2011, 23:34
SC are allowed at all of my tournaments, and they seem to be allowed in most of the other tournaments around here (just one main one that doesn't allow them).

You can go around banning things but the best way to control them is through comp and sportsmenship scores. Anyone can be a dick, but they are going to pay for it, leaving those with fun special characters to have a great time and do well.


On a side note, the worst thing about banning special characters is that it leads to you banning other things.

If Teclis is banned then why not the 100 item that basically make an arch mage a mini Teclis? And what about other items like the powerscroll? And once you remove that what is the next 'broken' thing?

It's a slippery slope and the best way to deal with it is to not start in the first place.

bonertron
13-01-2011, 23:41
Well, the crappy thing is that the rules were just posted, and I was being proactive for a change and going for the fully painted army, so it was made in advance.

I really don't see the issue with SCs. They are one of the few things that make you have to devise a strategy for in 8th Ed. There are just so many ways to kill them, it's no more scary than a Bloodthirster or Steam Tank. Heck, Shadowblade, feedback scroll, cannon, catapult, lore of Death, tunnelers, ambushers... So many ways to kill Teclis.

Some tournaments even go so far as to ban the book of Hoeth. It's an expensive item, granting you a pile of VP on the characters demise, and so many ways to kill them. Then to group ALL SCs in one boat is just overkill.

Ah well, back to the drawing board for me.

Surgency
13-01-2011, 23:43
My group's never allowed Special Characters, we always felt it unfluffy to see the likes of Teclis and Settra showing up everytime there was a tiny little 2,500point battle, these guys have far more to be doing than showing up for every small scale border skirmish.


I always thought it was perfectly fluffy that the battle that my SC is involved in (and yes, i regularly bring Queek Headtaker, as I like Queeks Stormvermin and find them very effective) is just part of a much larger, more involved conflict, rather than a border skirmish. As such, the focus is on the most important part of this huge battle, where the SC in question wants to be present to ensure that the mission, whatever that may be, is completed



I seem to recall in some of the old editions weren't they only allowed if both players agreed as well?

You do recall correctly... But if you also think carefully, in those old (and now obsolete) editions, the SC's were stupidly powerful, and had a tendency to severly unbalance the game. They didn't call it herohammer for nothing, after all. Now its not SC's in general, its a couple SC's specifically


On a side note, the worst thing about banning special characters is that it leads to you banning other things.

If Teclis is banned then why not the 100 item that basically make an arch mage a mini Teclis? And what about other items like the powerscroll? And once you remove that what is the next 'broken' thing?

It's a slippery slope and the best way to deal with it is to not start in the first place.

I'm going to run a tournament, and pick and choose all kinds of things to ban. Anything that even smacks of being a little powerful will get the axe. Of course, using that logic I think the rules will just end up being: You can only bring Core choices, no more than 20 per unit, and all players have to bring the same core choices

Lord of Divine Slaughter
14-01-2011, 00:12
t's a slippery slope and the best way to deal with it is to not start in the first place.

Yup, the slippery slope starts with having a tournament at all. Warhammer isn't about winning, its about playing the game :)

-

I understand having a social event, meeting new people to share the hobby, but why encourage a mentality that is all about finding the worst "überbuilds" and arguing rule technicalities, by handing out prizes to the people you least want to play? :rolleyes:

Malorian
14-01-2011, 00:14
I'm going to run a tournament, and pick and choose all kinds of things to ban. Anything that even smacks of being a little powerful will get the axe. Of course, using that logic I think the rules will just end up being: You can only bring Core choices, no more than 20 per unit, and all players have to bring the same core choices

;)

Like you're leading to, the only way to make all the lists fair is to make them exactly the same, and that would suck.

Allow options, allow things to be different.

Will some people try and abuse it? Hell yes, and those people are going to get so smacked about the head with soft scores that they are going to vow to play nice next year.


bonertron, it really sucks that you got caught off guard with this, and the best thing you can do is make your opinion known.

If enough people tell the TO that they want SCs then you can bet they will be allowed next year (or else the tournament will suffer).



Yup, the slippery slope starts with having a tournament at all. Warhammer isn't about winning, its about playing the game :)

I understand having a social event, meeting new people to share the hobby, but why encourage a mentality that is all about finding the worst "überbuilds" and arguing rule technicalities, by handing out prizes to the people you least want to play? :rolleyes:

No, tournaments are a great way for people to come together and play with new missions against new players.

If the jerks are taking home all the trophies then the TO didn't design the tournament for friendly play.

I will admit though that cash should never be the prize, and if anything the prize should be kept minor.

Back when I was a hardcore powergamer I went to a my first tournament that had a cash prize. I CRUSHED everyone and guess how much money I won?.... Zero! My tactical scores were top notch but my comp and sportsmenship scores with zip.

Had the prize been minor I wouldn't have been so tempted to be such a jerk.


Edit:

Another interesting note: a while back a player tried to setup a tournament that would be based purely on if you won or lost and by how much, no soft scores at all.

The tournament never got off the ground because there wasn't enough interest.

Ronin[XiC]
14-01-2011, 00:17
there we go again.
You americans just have a completely different approach and oppinion when it comes to restrictions.
In Germany there was like 1 tournament in the last 10 years or so that allowed special characters. The world did not collapse.

Malorian
14-01-2011, 00:22
;5240823']there we go again.
You americans just have a completely different approach and oppinion when it comes to restrictions.
In Germany there was like 1 tournament in the last 10 years or so that allowed special characters. The world did not collapse.

Keep calling us Canadians 'Americans' and we'll start calling you Germans 'Turks'.

Tregar
14-01-2011, 00:28
I do think it's a shame that so many tournaments ban all special characters. As Malorian points out, if you're going to ban Teclis, you should also ban the Book of Hoeth and the Power Scroll; this one special character and two magic items are pretty much the only things in WHFB that are considered by most to be game-breaking.

But then if you're going to ban specific things because they're too powerful, then why ban huge swathes of other things in collateral damage? It's so bizarre that so many tournaments here will have specific bans like "No Book of Hoeth, no Power Scroll" yet when it comes to special characters, the whole lot are banned. It's as insane as banning ALL magic items because a few are overpowered (And yes, they are overpowered indeed).

Personally, if I were running a tournament with minimal comp, I would simply say "No IFs on doubles". That effectively forbids power scroll and book of hoeth, but allows Teclis to be brought, only, without his main ability. He's still excellent value and a great leader for the High Elf army without the War Crown, but it would really separate the men from the boys- how many High Elf players would still use him "because he's so fluffy, such a great model etc." without his overpowering ability? I'd love to find out! :D

Lord Inquisitor
14-01-2011, 00:38
The last GT I went to had the following restrictions:

No power scroll
No Teclis
No Book of Hoeth
No Kairos
No Thorek

I thought this seemed like a reasonable list, not exhaustive but the majority of horribly abusable and unbalanced things in the game without throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Obviously wherever you draw the line people will question it but it worked well enough as far as I could tell.

Nubl0
14-01-2011, 00:50
Round here we dont ban any sc's, and to be honest they hardly show up in most people's lists and even when they do it's as a counts or some fluff reason. However I do get a ribbing for the filthy antics I get upto using the masque hehe but then I love the model and the rules. Other tournaments roud here that do ban things dont bother banning karios as they run at a 2k point lvl.

Would anyone hate me if I said one of my lists has the masque and skulltaker in it? Haha and I only just started daemons in 8th. Then again my regular list has a lord of change in it... and he sucks but I cant not use him as I spent so much time painting him :(

Ronin[XiC]
14-01-2011, 00:56
Keep calling us Canadians 'Americans' and we'll start calling you Germans 'Turks'.

Majority of the people posting here are Americans.
Canada is btw an american country -_-

Tregar
14-01-2011, 00:56
The last GT I went to had the following restrictions:

No power scroll
No Teclis
No Book of Hoeth
No Kairos
No Thorek

Good list. Although you need to play at about 3000 points before you can even use Kairos, was it that big a tournament?

Edit: actually just checked, he can be fielded at 2500 points. I'd definitely ban him as well, especially in light of the latest FAQ.

Agoz
14-01-2011, 01:04
I started back in early 6th edition when it was widely thought that taking a special character represented a fundamental lack of creativity. Back then people liked to have generals who they could write the back story for, rather than having it spoon fed to them by Games Workshop. With this in mind, I have absolutely no problem with banning special characters. HOWEVER, I do agree that if your army composition requires a special character to exist, a few come to mind, Throgg, Throt, Scragg the slaughterer, (in my case luthor harkon), then you should be allowed to play those characters with no questions asked, as far as I'm concerned it's games workshop's fault for putting that restriction on the player, not the player's fault for using a special character.

Seville
14-01-2011, 01:17
;5240823']there we go again.
You americans just have a completely different approach and oppinion when it comes to restrictions.
In Germany there was like 1 tournament in the last 10 years or so that allowed special characters. The world did not collapse.

Oh, stop! The world did indeed collapse!

DaemonReign
14-01-2011, 01:59
Keep calling us Canadians 'Americans' and we'll start calling you Germans 'Turks'.

*lol*

Priceless.

someone2040
14-01-2011, 04:28
Unfortunately, there just seems to be a lot of hate over special characters back from 6th edition, when they were quite powerful and required opponents consent, to some outliers appearing in 7th edition.
And it's just something you have to deal with. Check the rules pack well in advance, or just ask the TO if there's no rules pack out at the time. Some tournaments allow them, some don't, it's all up to the TO in the end.

I agree that some are broken. But on the other hand, there are a great deal more that aren't game breaking, or that special, and some, are even overpriced by a long shot. So I've always felt it poor, that there's just been a sweeping hand that punishes the many special characters over the few that are unbalanced.

SilasOfTheLambs
14-01-2011, 04:57
I agree with previous posters on Teclis and Thorek... it's miserable to play against them. I'll add another: skulltaker. If he cost a lot more points he might be ok, but as it stands he's a gamebreaker.

On the flip side, there's not a single special character in the empire book that's worth taking at under 3k. I posted a thread about one of them recently on here, Ludwig Schwarzhelm, and the verdict was: decent in concept but costs about 80 points too much.

The metagame around here routinely bans special characters, and the only tournament I'm aware of that allows them is coming up shortly. It's 2000 points (which rules out Thorek by default, as well as Malekith and so on) and they have threatened dire sportsmanship penalties if anybody brings Teclis. I admit that it's kind of fun to see Grom the Paunch, Josef Bugman, Kholek Suneater, and other fluffy characters. On balance, though, I prefer non-SC tournaments. I just don't want the can of worms opened. If you're going to ban some, you have to make the case for banning or not banning EVERY special character, particularly the borderline ones. What about Malekith? What about lord Kroak? As usual, everybody will think that the character they like is totally balanced and the ones they dislike are totally out of control. It's better just not to mess with these issues and ban them all, IMO.

DeathlessDraich
14-01-2011, 13:13
I agree, it is much easier for players and tournament organisers to ban all Special characters instead of just a select few.

While playing with special characters is great fun, a tournament that includes them focuses too much on knowledge of all special characters and misses out on the more admirable qualities of generalship.

The tournament rule should be@ every player should include a special character if they are to be present. I played once in such a tournament - it was extremely enjoyable with surprising results.

IcedCrow
14-01-2011, 15:33
I'll post my five cents:

Tournaments are what drove me out of the hobby to begin with. It was the "WIN AT ALL COSTS" mentality that I struggled against. I just don't enjoy my games like this.

Special Characters in 6th edition weren't really that big a deal. 5th edition was when they were walking Gods. However, special characters of any edition cater to a certain play style.

The problem with having them in tournaments is that they force you to play into that play style, and a lot of people don't like that. The tournament becomes "un fun" and more of a chore than anything enjoyable.

There is nothing wrong with SCs if you enjoy them. But in a public game that's where the problem comes against. In a tournament you can't pick and choose your opponent. And if you are put up against a person who is using SCs then you are going to be playing to that style of game no matter if you like it or not.

Of course the ultimate answer is: if you are playing in tournaments then you should already know what to expect.

Gaargod
14-01-2011, 15:47
Unfortunately, this is still an issue in fantasy. In 40k, its assumed SCs are in full force, because so many of them affect the army lists. Which is why certain SCs (Vulkan and Mephiston both jump to mind) are irritating.

In fantasy, with the obvious example being Throgg, its rather unfair to ban some of the SCs. But the problem is... some of them are just plain idiotic. Teclis is, despite being expensive and squishy, incredibly good - and he becomes a crutch for the army. Which is a shame

Wade Wilson
14-01-2011, 15:53
On a side note, the worst thing about banning special characters is that it leads to you banning other things.

If Teclis is banned then why not the 100 item that basically make an arch mage a mini Teclis? And what about other items like the powerscroll? And once you remove that what is the next 'broken' thing?

It's a slippery slope and the best way to deal with it is to not start in the first place.

i agree with you here dude. Yes some SCs are grossly overpowered, but then so are some items. The Masque of Slaanesh is OTT for 90 points and her leadership reducing dance can prove problematic to an enemy unit...but then so can a 25 point Siren Song from a perfectly legitimate Herald of Slaanesh! that one item can completly change a game and you can take multiples of them. Will you ban them from tournies? If so will you ban vann hortsmans spelcrum or the dark elf reverse ward save?

I personaly feel that if you have the option to use somthing in your army book you should be allowed to use it in all games, competative or otherwise.

But thats just me so for private tournaments it is down to what the majority of people participating want. One could always allow SCs to be used but award extra points to armies competing without them similar to points awarded for fair play, best sportsmanship, best painted army, etc.

sssk
14-01-2011, 16:05
I don't use special characters at all...ever, because A) it makes me feel like it's not my army (or at least feels like my army has an interloper in its midst), and B) for the most part, I just can't see special characters turning up every other game, fluff wise..... and I suppose C) my characters have too much history to get replaced. It's taken 10 (or so) long years for Desmond to become the fearsome goblin warboss he is today, and I'm not going to abandon that just because someone else has a big weapon or something.

Anyway, that's all irrelevant really, other than pointing out that it would make no difference to me whether SCs were allowed or not. However, I know that other people get annoyed when SCs are banned, and some people like to use them etc, so with that in mind I guess it makes sense to allow anything which is in an army book (they are in the rules after all).

I think the sportsmanship/comp scores which Malorian (I think) was talking about earlier are a very very very good idea, as it kind of balances things out, without having to limit anyone's choice of units.

Being an Ultimate Frisbee player, I'm all for the sportsmanship thing, as at frisbee tournaments you get the winners, who "win", by all classic definitions, and then each team gives the teams they play against a "spirit" score. The team with the highest spirit score at the end of the tournament wins a seperate (but equally saught after) trophy/prize. Maybe that would be another route to balance things in warhammer.

Korraz
14-01-2011, 16:14
If you are an Organizer and bother with banlists and restrictions, then do it right and not half-assed. Go over the SCs and look which should be banned and which not. It's your god damn job.

IcedCrow
14-01-2011, 16:57
Problem with that is it's entirely based on opinion.

To me either ban them all or not at all.

Haravikk
14-01-2011, 17:00
It's annoying that special characters get blanket banned; really tournaments should at least allow those that permit certain units to become core (allowing specific themed lists), as these are rarely overpowered since you're usually paying quite a bit for the privilege of the core choices.

Models like Crone Hellebron (not exactly hard to kill), Lord Skrolk (same though Toughness 5 helps a lot), etc. As it means I can't enter my Witch Elf army into tournaments, not that I really play many at all, but it's a very hard to use list so it's not like it's overpowered!

Malorian
14-01-2011, 17:26
If you are an Organizer and bother with banlists and restrictions, then do it right and not half-assed. Go over the SCs and look which should be banned and which not. It's your god damn job.

I remember Vaul talking about a tournament where you actually submitted your list way before the tournament and if the TOs thought it was too good they banned the entire thing (not just items).

This sounds even better as it takes everything into perspective, however as you would expect there is still the 'best list' that made it past the screen that people complain about.

You simply can't win playing the ban game as there will always be a next best thing.

yabbadabba
14-01-2011, 17:31
SCs are like Daemons in WFB 7th Ed - everyone says they are horrible but they don't appear anywhere near as often as people would expect. There is nothing wrong with SCs but they do come into their own in a campaign more than a tournament.

SCs are both good and bad, with the worst of it being for the player using them to be honest. Compared to a home built character, every SC is known, as is their strengths and weaknesses, allowing a far greater degree of tactical adaptation than looking across at an unknown character. In addition, such is the cost and the benefit of SCs that armies inevitably end up over focussed on them. Crutch can be very appropriate.

Anyway, good luck to the OP.

Tregar
14-01-2011, 17:40
Problem with that is it's entirely based on opinion.

To me either ban them all or not at all.

I can list a number of magic items that are overpowered and regularly banned. So why don't they just ban all magic items then?

Because it would be stupid. While banning all special characters isn't a stupid as banning all magic items, it's certainly the same kind of thoughtless treatment.

Malorian
14-01-2011, 17:45
I can list a number of magic items that are overpowered and regularly banned. So why don't they just ban all magic items then?

Because it would be stupid. While banning all special characters isn't a stupid as banning all magic items, it's certainly the same kind of thoughtless treatment.

Exactly.


Whenever I play lizardmen I love to break out Mazdamundi.

Is he good? Of course, he's a slann on a stegadon!

Is he broken? Hell no, he doens't have rumination or any of the things a regular slann would have.

So why do I take him? Weren't you listening, he's a slann on a stegadon! :p:D

IcedCrow
14-01-2011, 17:55
I can list a number of magic items that are overpowered and regularly banned. So why don't they just ban all magic items then?

Because it would be stupid. While banning all special characters isn't a stupid as banning all magic items, it's certainly the same kind of thoughtless treatment.

Basically because what one person finds to be "overpowered" another person finds to be "fine with".

Anything that is subject based on an opinion is hard to justify period because it's just an opinion.

Tournament organizers however are free to run their tournaments however they want. I got out of that scene years ago :)

yabbadabba
14-01-2011, 17:58
So why do I take him? Weren't you listening, he's a slann on a stegadon! :p:D I miss that these days. Too much math-hammer :cries:, not enough "OMG I HAVE TO TAKE THIS AS IT HAS A FRICKIN BIG GUN/SWORD/MONSTER (delete as needed)" :D

Bad monkey
14-01-2011, 18:01
Yup, the slippery slope starts with having a tournament at all. Warhammer isn't about winning, its about playing the game :)

-

I understand having a social event, meeting new people to share the hobby, but why encourage a mentality that is all about finding the worst "überbuilds" and arguing rule technicalities, by handing out prizes to the people you least want to play? :rolleyes:

You sir, are a gamer after my own heart,

ANyways, onto the point of SC's, I get you were being proactive and all but, its never a good idea to build and army without knowing what the restrictions of the tournie are going to to be.

The same would apply to a campain...

Morkash
15-01-2011, 14:48
;5240876']Majority of the people posting here are Americans.
Canada is btw an american country -_-

Yes, yes of course. And Austria is a part of Germany. Switzerland, too, of course. It is okay to not know instantly, but if you cannot distinguish them (or are just not sure), do not mention them. :wtf:

KevinC
15-01-2011, 16:12
There is no reason good reason to ban special characters. With the exception of maybe Teclis, which special character is more powerful than Dwellers Bellow, the Purple Sun, a tooled-up Slann, double Hydras, etc.??

If you go to a GT where special characters are allowed, you will find that most players don't take them anyway....why? Because, in truth, you can usually create more powerful characters using standard character choices - Slann, Bloodthirsters, Archlectors on Alters, reverse ward save Dark Elves, etc.

For those of you that don't like to "see special characters every game", I ask you do you use the same tooled-up characters every game? Do you take double hydras or steam tanks every game? It's the same thing.

I don't like to dictate what my opponents can or cannot take. And at the same time, I expect that I may create any army I like using the army book. If you want to use restrictions, restrict you own army, but don't hassle me.

Just play the game.

The bearded one
15-01-2011, 16:59
This thread made me wonder what the problem with Thorek is to bann him from tournaments. He's about as good as a normal runelord on anvil, except he does ancient power on 3+ instead of 4+ and has 1 reroll for the entire game. He's still a 505 pts guy hammering a thing that has a misfire chart. He's just slightly better at it than the a 315 pts runelord with anvil. And the runelord can select his own anti-magic runes.

Also Thorek takes up the master rune of gromril ( 1+ armoursave ) and any experienced dwarf player will know that the Mrogromril is reserved for your BSB, because BSB's are incredibly important to dwarfs and without this rune he is very vulnerable.

Thorek is not such a big deal anymore. He used to be, but not anymore. A normal runelord on anvil is nearly as good for about 150 pts less.

Ronin[XiC]
15-01-2011, 23:09
Yes, yes of course. And Austria is a part of Germany. Switzerland, too, of course. It is okay to not know instantly, but if you cannot distinguish them (or are just not sure), do not mention them. :wtf:

Your post doesn't make any sense.
Most people posting on this forum ARE citizens of the USA.

Canada is an american country. That does not mean that it's the same as the USA.
America is a continent. Canda and the USA are both american countries.

TMATK
15-01-2011, 23:19
;5244894']Your post doesn't make any sense.
Most people posting on this forum ARE citizens of the USA.

Canada is an american country. That does not mean that it's the same as the USA.
America is a continent. Canda and the USA are both american countries.

The Americas are 2 continents, north and south. When someone simply says "America", 99% of the time they mean USA.

Havock
16-01-2011, 11:55
If Teclis is banned then why not the 100 item that basically make an arch mage a mini Teclis?

Not banned because of its high cost.


And what about other items like the powerscroll?

Banned :)


And once you remove that what is the next 'broken' thing?

Still looking at that, but we disallow lord level SC's here and we kicked out the power scroll as well, in tournaments there should me a modicum of skill required to win, not rolling a few dice and evaporating half the opponent's army.

freddieyu
16-01-2011, 12:04
Ah in WHFB SC's should be banned, as they were designed for an older edition...now the interesting decision would be if to ban SC's with the newer (as in 8th ed) books.....maybe not...but that depends on how they turn out...let's wait and see...

For items...I'd ban just the power scroll....or allow it, but making it's cost 75-100 pts...thus making only lord level wizards get it.....

Haravikk
16-01-2011, 12:11
Still looking at that, but we disallow lord level SC's here and we kicked out the power scroll as well, in tournaments there should me a modicum of skill required to win, not rolling a few dice and evaporating half the opponent's army.
But what about characters like Crone Hellebron and Lord Skrolk? A Witch Elf heavy army can hit hard but is extra fragile, and a pure Witch Elf army is in fact so fragile it's a huge challenge to use effectively (but great fun).
Likewise a pure Clan Pestilens army isn't really that much more effective as with their lack of armour plague monks aren't desperately hard to kill despite their Toughness of 4.

Neither Crone Hellebron or Lord Skrolk are that overpowered since both are very easily killed, but they make some very interesting themed lists possible.

cosy
16-01-2011, 18:03
I really dislike those tournament rules. How is it fair for a WOC player to not be allowed to use Scylla Anfingrimm for example?

Not every player wants to include Teclis because he is powerfull. Some people use him in a Hoeth army. I would personnally be very frustrated if i wasn't allowed to use every option in my armybook.

I you do want a certain level of controle, i believe those 'popularity points' ( or however you call them) are the best way to do it.

Lets keep the freedom of the game!

DeathlessDraich
16-01-2011, 18:50
You can go around banning things but the best way to control them is through comp and sportsmenship scores.

On a side note, the worst thing about banning special characters is that it leads to you banning other things.

If Teclis is banned then why not the 100 item that basically make an arch mage a mini Teclis? And what about other items like the powerscroll? And once you remove that what is the next 'broken' thing?

It's a slippery slope and the best way to deal with it is to not start in the first place.

Impossible to please everyone when you're the organiser. :)

Bottom line is what the tournament organisers wish to achieve.
Most of them will select rules and restrictions which seem to work in other tournaments without weighing their effects.


1) Comp scores and sportsmanship scores

A) - Sportsmanship scores unfortunately have been abused in some tournaments - hardly see them nowadays - maybe not so in Canada?:)

B) - Comp scores - the balance is quite difficult. Comp may be based on i)Themes ii)Rare/Special ratios iii) Exclusion of SC

i) Themes:
Some organisers feel a good theme is a good comp. except some themes are deadly and so armies like Skryre Skaven, Tzeentch/Khorne are strong but othere armies do not have access to such themes
ii) Rare and Special choice restrictions
Popular in tournaments in 7th ed. Agains favours some armies more than others.
iii) SC - some are benign while others deadly.
The points assigned to SP are not well thought of by their creators and therefore create imbalances.

2) Magic Items
The Power Scroll is widely banned in tournaments here and understandably so.

Conclusion:
1) The imbalances of SCs etc are not actually rectified by comp scores etc. Their effect is to simply shift the goal posts.


My old Warhammer group is hosting a tournament in a couple of weeks, Should we not just be playing the game the way GW made it to play? I know they REALLY messed up with the 8th ed rules, but allowing no special characters really hinders some armies, and makes some unplayable... Not to mention, taking some of the uniqueness out of armies.

Thoughts?


2) To be successful a tournament will want the majority to come back again. Since only 1 has won, the majority will be losers and they must feel they've
a)enjoyed themselves - least and most equitable restrictions perceived
b) had a fair bite of the cherry - strong lists but not popular lists are toned down



Final comment:

Tournaments which do not ban items or SC will produce a winner who not necessarily is the best general but who is also partially able to come up with a formidable army list using the SC - And he usually has a trick or 2 up his sleeve to unleash on his opponents and turn the game in his favour.


While that is in itself a skill, it's the least interesting for me as it feels that player is more of a magician than a tactical general.


Whenever my tournament army has such a trick, I tend to explain it and warn my opponent that I could unleash it so that I will have a good game.
Unfortunately, many players do not.
It's a matter of winning using Warhammer manoeuvring skills or winning in the same way as you would in a game of Snap! :D

Tregar
16-01-2011, 19:01
Tournaments which do not ban items or SC will produce a winner who not necessarily is the best general but who is also partially able to come up with a formidable army list using the SC - And he usually has a trick or 2 up his sleeve to unleash on his opponents and turn the game in his favour.

Sorry old chap but that's just not true! I've not heard of any 8th edition tournaments that have been won by an army with a special character. True, there's not been many due to the overriding prejudice against them, but the one I have been to was won by Bretonnians without special characters. Maybe 1/6 of the armies had taken one (Including me, but then I'm a dirty power gamer. Skarsnik is so broken!) and they finished all over the place.

Of course much like you'd ban the power scroll, you really would have to stop Teclis' overpowering rules as well for a fair tournament at 2400 points or less.

Think it was the UK GT this weekend too, wonder if a SC army came top there?

DeathlessDraich
16-01-2011, 21:54
Thats interesting:
1) Brets won against SC opposition! - shows that there is no reason to think Brets are not a top tier army in 8th ed - I would love to see his list - probably an all knight list but did he have at least 1 unit of 12 or 15 strong Lance?

2) Skarsnik is certainly far more acceptable than some of the superstrong characters - Teclis etc. Wouldn't you agree armies like Daemons, Lizardmen without SC can still compete against other armies with SC but TK, Ogres and possibly WE, cannot?

3) Just a few other questions about the tournament which I'm sure the OP would also like to know
i) What other SCs were there?
ii) How many players and how many points
iii) Did any particular army/armies benefit hugely from SCs or suffered badly from not using one?

4) Good luck in the GT if you're playing - I'm not. :)

BEEGfrog
16-01-2011, 22:16
2) Skarsnik is certainly far more acceptable than some of the superstrong characters - Teclis etc. Wouldn't you agree armies like Daemons, Lizardmen without SC can still compete against other armies with SC but TK, Ogres and possibly WE, cannot?



But Lizardmen SC are so crap (sometimes fluffy, but still crap) that they make the army worse - they would be uncompetitive IF they had a SC.

DaemonReign
16-01-2011, 22:24
But Lizardmen SC are so crap (sometimes fluffy, but still crap) that they make the army worse - they would be uncompetitive IF they had a SC.

Isn't that the major "problem" with SC's.. Some armies have Special Characters that are almost win-buttons (High Elves, DoC) while others have Special Characters that really lowers the strength of the List (LM, Skaven, Dwarves).

Tregar
17-01-2011, 00:25
Thats interesting:
1) Brets won against SC opposition! - shows that there is no reason to think Brets are not a top tier army in 8th ed - I would love to see his list - probably an all knight list but did he have at least 1 unit of 12 or 15 strong Lance?

This was a tournament with around 40 players, oddly Bretonnians did very well taking something like 3 of the top 10 spots! But maybe it's not so weird, I was reading over some collated tournament results and in one country with a lot of tournaments Bretonnians were actually top of the pile. I personally think they're a lot stronger than a lot of people give them credit for.


2) Skarsnik is certainly far more acceptable than some of the superstrong characters - Teclis etc. Wouldn't you agree armies like Daemons, Lizardmen without SC can still compete against other armies with SC but TK, Ogres and possibly WE, cannot?

I believe there was one HE army with Teclis, and one without, and that they actually played each other, and the Teclis army lost! I'm not quite sure why you're so adamant that the inclusion of a special character suddenly makes an army so much better; sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. Any of those armies can compete against any other, special characters or not; a filthy Daemon army with 40 Horrors, 12 Flamers etc. doesn't become fluffy and fun just because it has no special characters, and while Teclis is an abomination in the current game, he doesn't make his army unbeatable.


3) Just a few other questions about the tournament which I'm sure the OP would also like to know
i) What other SCs were there?
ii) How many players and how many points
iii) Did any particular army/armies benefit hugely from SCs or suffered badly from not using one?

Not that many special characters- clearly the players hadn't got the memo about how broken they all are! We had a Teclis, a Skulltaker, a few minor ones. As it was 2 games at 1500 points (I even had Skarsnik there!) and 2 at 2000 points Thorek and Kairos were unusable. It's impossible to say if any army suffered for not having special characters, but it certainly didn't give people the instant win just for their inclusion.


4) Good luck in the GT if you're playing - I'm not. :)

GW GTs have so many problems that I wouldn't waste my money on them! Special characters really are the least of the worries, although I'm sure most have a great time still.

Two_Hands
17-01-2011, 01:49
The Americas are 2 continents, north and south. When someone simply says "America", 99% of the time they mean USA.

Yes... and? It's still 100% correct to call someone from Canada "American", as they do indeed come from (North) America. It's just the same as me calling someone African when they come from Zambia, even though 99% of the time here if someone is referred to as African the speaker means they are from South Africa.

DaemonReign
17-01-2011, 03:11
Yes... and? It's still 100% correct to call someone from Canada "American", as they do indeed come from (North) America. It's just the same as me calling someone African when they come from Zambia, even though 99% of the time here if someone is referred to as African the speaker means they are from South Africa.

Ahem I know I shouldn't but I can't resist..

You Do know, of course, that by saying "American" anyone who isn't intentionally being a retard will interpret that as meaning "US-citizen".

I know that isn't RAW, but it is the commonly accepted RAI.. For lack of better words.

Damocles8
17-01-2011, 05:23
I understand having a social event, meeting new people to share the hobby, but why encourage a mentality that is all about finding the worst "überbuilds" and arguing rule technicalities, by handing out prizes to the people you least want to play? :rolleyes:

Gee you just gave me a great idea. Have a tournament that's not a tournament. Everyone pays X amount of money for prizes, see if the LGS will add some prize support, then everyone plays games, random opponents, can feel free to change lists between games. Doesnt' matter how well you did, most of the prize support being thrown about randomly, can have best sportsmanship and best painted still.

FashaTheDog
17-01-2011, 05:52
In fairness, a few years back it used to be harder to get into Massachusetts from New York than it was to get into Canada. It was great to just be out and randomly decide to zip up to Montreal or Toronto for the day. Made the two countries feel like one (except in Canada milk comes in bags and there are Timmy's instead of those lousy Dunkin Donuts). My Canadian relatives even told me once when I was little that Canada was just 13 more states or the US was 50 more Provinces, depending which side of the border you lived on. /rant over

As for special/unique characters, I personally have no ill will towards their use. Back when I first got into the game I remember buying my first special character, Sourgutt the Goblin King. He clocked in at 1,358 points (remember when special character rules use to be printed on the back of the box they came in). Granted point values were a little higher back in 3rd edition, but he was still great fun, although his daemon chariot, which was 1,000 of his points, was a beastly wizard in his own right. Dropped him on the table and my friend asked how I tooled him up. When I responded he was an official character, he was suitably impressed.

Now there does seem to be a rather disappointing lack of enthusiasm over them and nearly no "Oh wow, thats...!" moments when someone drops one on the field. I only got back into Fantasy in time for a farewell to 7th before diving headlong into 8th, but the special characters do feel...less special somehow. Sure some are powerful, but it just seems like they lack the feel of the good old days (and before you accuse me of selective nostalgia, 3rd edition's system is better, hence my interest in Wargods which looks like it takes a lot from it with elements of old school epic). Admittedly there are probably a few that are cool, but they get lost in the shuffle and no one pays them any heed. Might be nice if GW were to scale back on them a little and make it so seeing one on the field means something. Not likely, all things considered.

If anything, they'd have to introduce a new brand of epic characters that are meant for huge games only and had well thought out and tested rules that did change the macro without being overpowered and each race had one, or perhaps two in rare cases, such expensive units. I could see this working as a Fantasy counterpart to 40K's Apocalypse, but this epic character would be in lieu of some sort of strategic asset and it costs points, perhaps even overcosted slightly, but only a little to make their use more of fluff choice and not a no brainer power build. Still, just wish listing from an old school player.

As for personal experiences, my group has been running an escalation league since the release and has just said no special characters and the end of step tournaments have followed this. Whether this continues after we wrap up at the end of the month remains to be seen.

Chiungalla
17-01-2011, 05:54
There tournament. There rules. It's simple as that.
They have all the work with the tournament, and you have the final say if you want to go there after all. So if you don't like the rules, don't go at all!

Don't try to convince them, it's still there tourney! They don't have to justify there decision to you. You don't have any right that they set up there tournament the way you like.

The only thing you should do is a very polite "I would like if next time..." after the tourney.

I love to play restricted tourneys. Why? Because the balance GW brought with Warhammer if you play strictly by the books is terrible. And most tourneys with restrictions make it better then GW. Restricted tourneys are not so cheesy and more fun, at least for me.

And just keep in mind, that everybody looses something. Sure you can't play your +6 caster, but you don't have to face Teclis, too.

Havock
17-01-2011, 08:58
But what about characters like Crone Hellebron and Lord Skrolk? A Witch Elf heavy army can hit hard but is extra fragile, and a pure Witch Elf army is in fact so fragile it's a huge challenge to use effectively (but great fun).
Likewise a pure Clan Pestilens army isn't really that much more effective as with their lack of armour plague monks aren't desperately hard to kill despite their Toughness of 4.

Neither Crone Hellebron or Lord Skrolk are that overpowered since both are very easily killed, but they make some very interesting themed lists possible.

Yes but they are exceptions, for everyone of those there is a Conrad/Teclis with all their Shenanigans, we are a small club, people can always ask.

Tregar
17-01-2011, 10:20
And "Conrad" is broken, is he? If you've ever played with or against him, definitely not. Some intersting abilities, and makes Ogres cry, but a 2w T4 5+ armour save fighting character is a joke, especially in 8th edition.

HRM
17-01-2011, 11:00
...Special Characters in 6th edition weren't really that big a deal. 5th edition was when they were walking Gods...

Seconded. Man, I had to butt heads with Nagash The Black so many times it wasn't even funny.

RanaldLoec
17-01-2011, 11:08
Banning stuff is why I don't play in tournaments.

Special characters came in due to the English parliaments Disability Discrimination Act.

Essentially an employer has to make any reasonable adjustments to meet the needs of a person with a recognised disability in the workplace.

GW took this a step further and created special characters. If you are a general who has a recognised tactical disability then special characters are designed to be a reasonable adjustment to the balance of the game depending on the nature of your tactical disability.

(the above post is intended as a joke, it is no way intended to be degrading or insulting to any person, persons who may have or live with somebody who has a disability).

Lord of Divine Slaughter
17-01-2011, 11:32
Gee you just gave me a great idea. Have a tournament that's not a tournament. Everyone pays X amount of money for prizes, see if the LGS will add some prize support, then everyone plays games, random opponents, can feel free to change lists between games. Doesnt' matter how well you did, most of the prize support being thrown about randomly, can have best sportsmanship and best painted still.

So you point in this post dripping with sarcasm is that you find pride in proving you "the best" in an unbalanced game reliant on dice. I don't know whether I find that comic or tragic :cries::D :rolleyes:

If you take the time to read, what I said, you'll notice that I didn't use the word tournament, but instead 'social event', and I just questioned the sanity in handing out prizes for 'gaming skills' :p

Personally I take no pride in my WFB victories, I don't see how anyone could? What I do, is to have immense fun playing the game itself, but those 5 minutes, when you calculate VP and determines 'the winner', is better spent getting a beer and start discussing moments of awesomeness and tactical oddities.

Is this so odd? :)

yabbadabba
17-01-2011, 12:04
Banning stuff is why I don't play in tournaments.
Special characters came in due to the English parliaments Disability Discrimination Act.
Essentially an employer has to make any reasonable adjustments to meet the needs of a person with a recognised disability in the workplace.
GW took this a step further and created special characters. If you are a general who has a recognised tactical disability then special characters are designed to be a reasonable adjustment to the balance of the game depending on the nature of your tactical disability.
(the above post is intended as a joke, it is no way intended to be degrading or insulting to any person, persons who may have or live with somebody who has a disability).Unfortunately to be funny it needs some anchor to reality, which this doesn't.

BigbyWolf
17-01-2011, 16:41
Ah in WHFB SC's should be banned, as they were designed for an older edition...now the interesting decision would be if to ban SC's with the newer (as in 8th ed) books.....maybe not...but that depends on how they turn out...let's wait and see...

That's quite a bizarre post...there are far more special characters in the game now then there ever were. The lowest was probably 6th Edition, where you were lucky to get more then two per book.

Looking at the last two books released, I'd actually expect more special characters in 8th then there were in 7th.

Surgency
17-01-2011, 16:49
Looking at the last two books released, I'd actually expect more special characters in 8th then there were in 7th.

not only that, but more SC's that change the way an army is built, either by altering core/special requirements(Troll armies), or by altering the way a specific unit works (Queek)

WarmbloodedLizard
17-01-2011, 16:53
I'm totally in favor of banning all SC, with the option to propose a list (one try only!) to the TOs that does break this rule but still is no cheap min-max list.

anyone who wants to field a fluffy, balanced list can still play it while anyone who just wants the SC because he's stonger than a regular character can suck it :)

Lord Inquisitor
17-01-2011, 16:56
not only that, but more SC's that change the way an army is built, either by altering core/special requirements(Troll armies), or by altering the way a specific unit works (Queek)

Plus an increase in special characters that aren't even hero or lord choices at all, rather unit-leader characters. 40K has been moving more and more special character centric. Many SCs are required to open certain builds or to take certain character archetypes. Fantasy seems to be following more slowly, but I'm quite sure we're going to reach the same point where tournaments are going to be hard pressed to ban special characters in general.

Tregar
17-01-2011, 17:25
anyone who wants to field a fluffy, balanced list can still play it while anyone who just wants the SC because he's stonger than a regular character can suck it :)

That's a nice compromise, I like it!

Bodysnatcher
17-01-2011, 17:53
I really like the special characters that are genuinely unique rather than being a discounted version of what you can build as normal.
If TOs are in a half mood a simple starting point is to ban lord level SCs - the hero and unit champion SCs don't bludgeon the game out of shape even if they're pretty good.

Saintspirit
17-01-2011, 20:25
anyone who wants to field a fluffy, balanced list can still play it while anyone who just wants the SC because he's stonger than a regular character can suck it :)


That's a nice compromise, I like it!
Agreed. If you have an actual, fluffy, reason to use a character then I'm totally fine with it and would support it warmly, but if you put in Teclis/Karl Franz/Kairos just because they are good, then... no.

I'm actually about to go to a minor tournament soon who have pretty much this rule; if you want to use a SC and have a fluffy reason for it, then ask and it will probably be ok.

Lord Inquisitor
17-01-2011, 20:30
You can run into difficult cases. Would you be okay with the Masque in my pure-slaanesh daemon army, even though it runs on the abhored Ld-bomb build?

Bodysnatcher
17-01-2011, 20:34
I run a mono-tzeentch list with the bluescribes and the changeling.
That, as well as the mono-slaanesh Masque build are fluffy and acceptable. Someone bolting a Masque to a khorne horde army needs a slap.

Tregar
17-01-2011, 20:39
Mono-Slaanesh Daemons aren't especially strong, so I think it really is fair enough. It was only really broken in 7th edition because of the ahem, "tactic" of landing the Bloodthirster/Kairos next to a vulnerable unit and knocking down their LD. No more LD bombs means she isn't so tough. Her movement modifier is also less useful as a charging enemy doesn't double their movement. She's still really nasty and in a nasty Daemon army I'd frown, but I'd sooner ban Siren Song than ban the Masque, personally.

DeathlessDraich
17-01-2011, 20:56
You can run into difficult cases. Would you be okay with the Masque in my pure-slaanesh daemon army, even though it runs on the abhored Ld-bomb build?

I've never ever played with the Masque because I imagine he's difficult to keep alive- attracts all magic and shooting.

However,
Combined with Herald BSB with Icon of Despair & Allure, I can see that your tactic will work since Ld will be reduced on a chosen enemy unit to 6 or much less (>50% chance of failing).
All sorts of problems then - Fear & Break tests, Phantamasgoria followed by Slicing Shards etc...

EDIT
@Tregar - Siren song has been around since 7th. I used Double Siren Song lists when DOC first came out before the FAQ toned it down a little. It is much stronger in 8th, I agree but do you really think it should be banned? DOC has been weakened sufficiently I think.

Bodysnatcher
17-01-2011, 20:59
And then you face an army that doesn't care about psychology and all those points are wasted.

N810
17-01-2011, 21:02
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4473264&postcount=1
These seem to be the only broken/OP Special Characters.

Shamutanti
17-01-2011, 21:05
I find normal heroes boring and SCs interesting.

On a side note, in tournament play that involves special characters (at least WFB side) it tends to be the armies that use normal heroes which win a majority of games.

As amazing as Teclis is, I've not known of a Fantasy tournament yet that#s won with him. Great for pick up games, awful for tournaments. People know what to expect and how to combat it. Random hero number 2 is an unknown oddity you have to deal with without complete execution of obvious counters.

SilverDraich
17-01-2011, 21:13
Ahem I know I shouldn't but I can't resist..

You Do know, of course, that by saying "American" anyone who isn't intentionally being a retard will interpret that as meaning "US-citizen".

I know that isn't RAW, but it is the commonly accepted RAI.. For lack of better words.

Ok, first of all, America is the name of the continent. This continet is divided into 3 sub continets, North, Central and South America, still being just one continent. So every person living in this continent is called an american. Thou, i don't know why, the majority of the world refers to US citizens as american. Either way a canadian person is as much as an american as a US. citizen or a south american citizen. An just so you know, we south americans do not ever refer to US. citizens as americans and i'm quite sure nither do central americans and mexicans.

N810
17-01-2011, 21:17
Sory we can't help that our country was awkwardly named by an egocentric map maker who names everything after himself. :shifty:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amerigo_vespucci
Ps. I'm not calling myself a Unitedstation because that just sounds stupid. :p

Pps. People from New York City call them selves New Yorkers, and they mean the city and not the state.

Ppps. for some reason ther are also 35 states have a city by the name of springfeild.

The point is that latin languages have logical names for things, and English is a trainwreck of a language and traditions.

yabbadabba
17-01-2011, 21:19
Ok, first of all, America is the name of the continent.That does depend on interpretation. Common in Latin-America, Spain and Portugal, most other english speaking countries andd many non-english speaking countries see it as North and South America continents, just like Europe and Asia are separate but are actually a single land mass. Dependent on views you can get anywhere between 4-7 continents.

Just to be pedantic

BigbyWolf
17-01-2011, 21:32
I'm totally in favor of banning all SC, with the option to propose a list (one try only!) to the TOs that does break this rule but still is no cheap min-max list.

anyone who wants to field a fluffy, balanced list can still play it while anyone who just wants the SC because he's stonger than a regular character can suck it :)

As someone who only uses SCs for the purpose of making fluffy lists, I agree with this wholeheartedly.

But, on the flip-side you may end up with someone using a Saphery-themed High Elf list, with Teclis and buckets of Swordmasters.

Wait...would you find Swordmasters in buckets? They're High Elves, so perhaps "sequin-covered pursefuls of Swordmasters" would be better...:shifty:


Sory we can't help that our country was awkwardly named by an egocentric map maker who names everything after himself. :shifty:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amerigo_vespucci.

If that was the case you'd be living in Vespucciland! ;)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Amerike

Tregar
17-01-2011, 22:52
I've never ever played with the Masque because I imagine he's difficult to keep alive- attracts all magic and shooting.

Typically when I see her, she does all kinds of stupid stuff like drawing out fanatics and surviving :(


@Tregar - Siren song has been around since 7th. I used Double Siren Song lists when DOC first came out before the FAQ toned it down a little. It is much stronger in 8th, I agree but do you really think it should be banned? DOC has been weakened sufficiently I think.

There's a better case for it to banned than the Masque I feel, but I don't think either should be banned outright.

Also, news from Throne of Skulls, is seems that Dwarfs (!) actually won the whole event. Considering that Thorek can't be taken as it's a 2000 point event, yet another case of special characters not ruining the day. In fact the only tournament report I've found so far, I didn't see any special characters in any of the 6 armies...

Lord Inquisitor
17-01-2011, 23:48
Typically when I see her, she does all kinds of stupid stuff like drawing out fanatics and surviving :(
If you can keep her near an infantry unit, she has a 3+ ward and a 4+ Look Out Sir save. She's pretty tough! And if you do kill her, meh, enjoy your 90 victory points... :D

pointyteeth
17-01-2011, 23:57
If you can keep her near an infantry unit, she has a 3+ ward and a 4+ Look Out Sir save.

Is this right? I never looked that closely at the 4+ look out sir save, is it not a ward?

Tregar
18-01-2011, 00:03
Yes, it is right, no, it's not a ward (Why not just take LI's word for it? :( ). In fact if you do look the rule up, they even use the Masque in their example of a character claiming proximity look out sir (From Plaguebearers, of all things)!

pointyteeth
18-01-2011, 00:15
Wow thats tough!

On topic, I see no reason not to allow special characters. Everyone has equal access to special characters in their lists (while I admit some are better than others). I'm going to a regular tournament in February which allows special characters. It wasn't a problem last year, and I don't see it being a problem this year.

scruffyryan
18-01-2011, 00:15
With the exception of Kairos, the masque, skulltaker, and teclis, special characters can generally be out performed by generic heros. The special character sturm und drang is basically over nothing.

Lord of Divine Slaughter
18-01-2011, 09:09
Agreed. And there are a great many standard character builds that are just a name away from being a SC - as you knew exactly what to expect from a few pointers. 7th had complaints about Star Dragon Lords, Unkillable Dreadlords, WAlters and 'thirsters. All standard characters that took as much flak as Teclis.

amysrevenge
18-01-2011, 20:07
I want to play in a tournament that *requires* at least one SC per army.

Turtleking
18-01-2011, 21:36
I don't mind playing with special characters.

I don't mind my opponent playing with special characters.

However, I don't take jerk combos myself because it makes the game unfun. And if my opponent does them to win a casual tourney game I will give them the Waaagh Stare, and my rolls will be off the charts because of his cheese-ish ways.