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View Full Version : GW turning FW stuff plastic (bring cans of salt)



BeatTheBeat
15-01-2011, 12:12
Didn't see this posted or talked about here, so figured I would put it up for general abuse.

NoBaconz4You over on DakkaDakka says the following:
Okay I know you guys can be nazi's about this lol, but upon recently speaking to a stand-in for our GW store, I learned that the company have some plans for 2011/12.

He said that GW had just paid off a lot of debt not long ago, and have gathered quite a profit, he continued to explain that GWHQ were being a little more relaxed when design/making/releasing new models, saying that 'instead of only bringing out stuff that will earn the most income, like previously, they plan to release a lot more, i.e. new models for everything,' (and most excitingly) 'plastic versions of various FW products.'

He was almost certain that the Thunderhawk was first on the list (and no, not mistaken for the stormraven), and to follow were Warhound Titans, Tau Mantas and Barracudas...

Now this has me VERY excited, because as much as I like resin, I hate the quality of casts and FW's ridiculous cost.

Please don't rely too heavily on this rumour (I'm sure most of you won't, anyway) but I'd just like to put this out there because, well, it's a rumour (and if true, a very good one too!).

Note: This guy has been very lenient with secrets before, he let us know of the new skaven releases (in detail) before anything was mentioned on GW's site or in WD, I know some of you don't approve of stuff like this, and continue to believe that staff aren't told jack gak, but as everyone says; salt.


Personally, I'd love Thunderhawks (and Mantas are 99% likely not happening), but I feel like I heard rumours about them for about five years now. Though this might be related to the "summer of fliers" some people are talking about.

Cheers,
BTB

NixonAsADaemonPrince
15-01-2011, 12:16
I heard a rumour locally about the Warhound as well. I can definitely see this happening, especially after the success of the Baneblade and Stompa kits, it would make it business sense anyway. I just think it will probably be a few years off.

Astraeos
15-01-2011, 12:26
This is interesting, but the fact that the rumour said that GW were now in a position to release new stuff without having to think what will bring the money in is a good enough by itself.
But a plastic Thunderhawk? It'd be awesome but I'm not going to believe anything until I hear this directly from GW.

Damien 1427
15-01-2011, 12:30
You'd need so much salt that it would collapse in on itself to create some form of singularity.

It has happened, there are a few Tau kits that have since become plastic and sold as part of the stock line-up. But a plastic Thunderhawk has been rumoured for years without a shred of evidence, and I honestly doubt we'll see plastic Titans (Even if they are just Warhounds). As for the Manta, hahaha, no. Just a flat no. A Barracuda is possible, but the Manta is easily the biggest single model GW have produced, which is why it costs just shy of a grand.

Forgive me for being blunt, but I don't believe a word of it.

Hellebore
15-01-2011, 12:39
The amount of plastic in the fotress of redemption or realm of battles board is about equal to the amount you'd need for a thunderhawk. It's a space marine vehicle so of course it will sell.

The manta on the other hand is monstrous. Although it's on scale with titans it's a large flat sheet to a titan's stick figure. so far more involved. Then again, if they can produce a Realm of battles board 2 feet x 2 feet they should be able to do the same for a manta...

Hellebore

Intrepid Adventurer
15-01-2011, 12:48
I'd prefer plastic (and affordable) Elysian drop troopers, myself. ;)

Leggy
15-01-2011, 12:53
Manta just plain isn't happening (not before a Reaver or Warlord) but if the source was getting confused with some other tau flyer (orca, tigershark) I can believe the rest. The design work is mostly already done by Forgeworld. The models just need scanning into the GW plastification computers and fiddled with for ease of manufacture. If GW can justify the cost of a plastic mold I can't see why they wouldn't go this route.

Also, Tau must be due a release this year or next. Why not throw some flyers in the list? Dark Eldar got some. If the Tau plastics were new crisis suits, new broadsides and a Barricuda that'd ROCK!

Shinigami
15-01-2011, 13:00
i have always believed that there will be a plastic thunderhawk one day,

hopefully the sooner the better :D

but i do think he was mistaken the manta with the tigershark orso...

hoping its true!

MajorWesJanson
15-01-2011, 13:08
The next superheavy is likely to be the Thunderhawk.

Fortress of Redemption showed they can do long flat panels. The problem is that unlike the fortress, the Thunderhawk cannot duplicate as many sprues.

Currently, it can only be used in Apocalypse, or the one Battle Mission mission. However, a thunderhawk could be sold along 7 different armies easily (Space Marines, Chaos Space Marines, Space Wolves, Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Black Templars, and Grey Knights), and like everything else, Orks can loot it to make a Thunda'Ork. Plus a fliers expansion could also use it, and superheavies and fliers may make it into 6th edition.

Production wise, either it will require 6-7 sprues, or need some redesign so they can use more duplicate parts. I'd also expect as much reuse of elements as possible (ie make the doors and turrets in the front both Land Raider doors, so they can use existing door and sponsons, just new guns, use the main gun from the Shadowsword as the main topside gun, use missiles from the valkyrie for the wing missiles, ect.)



As for other FW models becoming plastic, some make too much sense not to happen at some point:
Hydra/Griffon
Basilisk/Medusa/Colossus
Barracuda
Thunderbolt fighter

Sildani
15-01-2011, 14:44
Let's not forget Eldar, with their Scorpion and Revenant Titan.There was talk last year that one of our super-heavies would be made plastic.

Yes, they'd sell.I'd personally buy three.

Zweischneid
15-01-2011, 14:50
I am all for plastic and everything... but the Tau Manta MUST be metal. Seriously.

I'll take 3.



Fun aside, I am not sure where the "news" comes from that GW is doing relatively well in their business?

Check this (scroll down): http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-12117510




Separately, fellow retailer Games Workshop also saw its share price dive as it faces tough trading conditions in the entertainment market.

Sales of its fantasy figurines and other products fell 4% in the six months to 28 November compared with a year earlier.

The company further warned that "difficult trading conditions since that time mean that this shortfall is unlikely to be recovered by the year end".

As a result, the firm feared that profits for the year to May were unlikely to meet market expectations.

Shares in Games Workshop fell nearly 18% in early London trading.

Mannimarco
15-01-2011, 15:11
Lets look at the line "he continued to explain that GWHQ were being a little more relaxed when design/making/releasing new models, saying that 'instead of only bringing out stuff that will earn the most income, like previously, they plan to release a lot more, i.e. new models for everything,' (and most excitingly) 'plastic versions of various FW products"

So GW have made their money and are just kicking back now and plan to release the fun things as well as the money makers instead of being purely profit driven? Companies dont think like that, its all about the money. They may have been releasing all kinds of wierd and wonderful things back in the past back when it wasnt so serious but now its all very commercial. If its not going to make money for the company then its not going to be released even if it is fun and exciting.

Zweischneid: No it musnt be metal, it would cost a LOT more than the resin. It was hard enough breaking even on the resin manta I shudder to think how many years they would have to wait for positive returns on a metal one.

We have to remember that this "thunderhawk is being made plastic" rumour has being going around for years. The fact that fliers are now the in style thing has just given new life to the rumour.

Remember that staffers are people to, for the most part they dont know any more than the guy posting on warseer/dakka (which is where a lot of these rumours actually start anyway).

Look at it like this: The staffer on minimum wage standing behind a till in your local GW doesnt know whats going on in the upper echelons of the company or what their future plans are any more than the guy behind the till in Walmart. They both have their theories on whats going on and can put 2 + 2 together and have a reasonable guess at what might happen* but thats all it is: a guess. Until we get proper conformation of this (and not just a staffer told me, staffers say lots of things) I wouldnt put any faith in this (old) rumour.

* there once was a rumour of GW making all the FW stuff in plastic, more and more races are getting fliers in their codexes ergo GW will be making a plastic thunderhawk, its going to happen soon!

BeatTheBeat
15-01-2011, 15:21
Zweischneid: No it musnt be metal, it would cost a LOT more than the resin. It was hard enough breaking even on the resin manta I shudder to think how many years they would have to wait for positive returns on a metal one.

I love that you took that part seriously.

Anyway, of course it is unreliable, and a lot of it seems unlikely. Never said otherwise. However, some of it seems entirely realistic, as some others here have said. Plaaaaaastic thunderhaaaaaaaaawk... :chrome:

Cheers,
BTB

Mannimarco
15-01-2011, 15:27
What more can I say? Im a very serious person....seriously ;)

True the plastic thunderhawk does seem plausible, but then again it has been hinted at for years: Its a marine thing and marines sell so it would sell. Plastic thunderhawk! Its going to happen.

Personally Im inclined to belive this is just the new flier lover giving new life to the old rumour and nothing more. Id love for it to be true but I cant see it myself.

AlexHolker
15-01-2011, 15:37
Even GW does release a plastic Thunderhawk, this guy and his source get no credit for the leak from me. Why? Because they're sufficiently credulous that they'd treat the plastic Tau Manta rumour as anything but the ravings of a madman. At three feet wide and two feet long they'd need a dozen sprues or more, for a model that wouldn't sell. It would be cheaper for them to just give out the FW Manta at GW prices, and eat the loss.

GomezAddams
15-01-2011, 15:46
With regards to the plastic thunderhawk, I'm surprised no ones looked at the storm raven and gone 'oh, there it is'.

I'd take a fairly decent guess that the strom raven was originally the plastic thunderhawk they simply couldnt get to work, so its now been revamped. Or its a prototype for the thunderhawk. Either way, not particularly great.

Hendarion
15-01-2011, 15:50
As much as I'd like the kits to be cheaper, I'd feel so awfully butt-badworded to see Eldar Flyers or Super Heavies in plastic. I know it will come and I know they will fit worse than the ones from FW. Actually I'm pissed already :P

Bunnahabhain
15-01-2011, 16:09
I happened to buy two pounds of salt this morning. Looks like I should have got more.

The plastic Thunderhawk rumour is ages old, and most of the rest is incredible. in-credible, i.e. impossible to believe.

New Plastics for everything? Plastic manta? Cowdung I say. When rumours consist of old news, and ridiculous speculations, they're not worth the paper they're written on. If GW do a 40K plastic manta, I'll buy one, and eat.

biggreengribbly
15-01-2011, 16:20
What more can I say? Im a very serious person....seriously ;)

True the plastic thunderhawk does seem plausible, but then again it has been hinted at for years: Its a marine thing and marines sell so it would sell. Plastic thunderhawk! Its going to happen.

Personally Im inclined to belive this is just the new flier lover giving new life to the old rumour and nothing more. Id love for it to be true but I cant see it myself.

Remember how long the Plastic Baneblade rumours were going around for before it actually happened? MAYBE THERE'S A PATTERN! :shifty:

Azazyll
15-01-2011, 17:04
I would love a plastic Warhound titan, makes even more sense than the thunderhawk, as any imperial could use it. It was the first thing I thought of when I saw they made stompas

Still Standing
15-01-2011, 17:20
Remember how long the Plastic Baneblade rumours were going around for before it actually happened? MAYBE THERE'S A PATTERN! :shifty:

Broken clocks are right twice a day!

Pushkin
15-01-2011, 17:21
Fun aside, I am not sure where the "news" comes from that GW is doing relatively well in their business?

Check this (scroll down): http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-12117510

I think the OP (or at least the OP's source) was referring to GW's balance sheet, they've reduced their debt finance which means that they've reduced their interest which effects their P&L

Because their paying less interest it means that they don't have to generate as many sales to have as high pre-tax profit, which potentially means they could "invest" in new lines that take a longer time to turn around.

If you look at GW's monthly sales policy, the idea is clearly to generate lots of sales THIS month each month to break even/profit on the cost of investment quickly. With lower interest cover, you don't have to worry about that as much.

Also christmas retail figures were rubbish for everyone because of the snow. 2011 will be bad for them (UK VAT has gone up 2.5% and inflation is about 5%) but there debt free and profitable. Ironically this actually means now would be a good time to release something along the lines of a T-Hawk e.g. at a time when people aren't buying much you sell them things that have high margins! It will still sell/be in fashion next year when things pick up again.

Zweischneid
15-01-2011, 17:34
Alright, I wasn't aware of that. Still, there seems (to me) to be a contradiction between this:



Because their paying less interest it means that they don't have to generate as many sales to have as high pre-tax profit, which potentially means they could "invest" in new lines that take a longer time to turn around.


And this:



If you look at GW's monthly sales policy, the idea is clearly to generate lots of sales THIS month each month to break even/profit on the cost of investment quickly. With lower interest cover, you don't have to worry about that as much.


If quicker returns on investment are keeping your profitable inspite of an overall drop in sales, why would they want to undermine this very advantage by starting "high-investment/longer-turn-around" kits right now?

Valkyrie114
15-01-2011, 17:34
As much as I love the Tau Manta I don't think that would be the right way to go. Seeing a 3ft by 4ft box of tau panel-lines that costs even $500 dollars would leave these boxes sitting in GW for years to come. The Manta is NOT a playable model- unless, of course, you play on top and inside it.

Tigersharks, Barracudas and FW Battles-suits please! :D

Pushkin
15-01-2011, 17:45
Alright, I wasn't aware of that. Still, there seems (to me) to be a contradiction between this:



And this:



If quicker returns on investment are keeping your profitable inspite of an overall drop in sales, why would they want to undermine this very advantage by starting "high-investment/longer-turn-around" kits right now?

Yes sorry i didn't make it clear:

Traditional/Current Model
This is what GW have done since the late 90s, till recently. Focus on monthly sales. But a couple of years ago they paid off their debt. This means they don't have to pay interest which comes out of their P&L - thus effecting profits.

Long term Approach
This is what the OP/his source was suggesting might happen. (Arguably the Dark eldar treatment is a sign of this?) Big projects kits that might not recoup their costs in the first year aren't a good idea if you've got a lot of interest to pay. (if you don't pay your interest, bank pulls your finance and you go bust)

If you don't have interest to pay (i.e. now) you could make something that would take a long time to break even. This is because you don't have to worry about auditors putting something in your annual reports about the issue of going concern that scares off investors. You're quite happy to make a loss in year one and recoup it all in years 2-5.

I'm not saying this will or won't happen. I was just saying that the the BBC article relate to retail sales whereas i got the impression that the OP/his source were referring to the balance sheet. Whilst obviously sales are very important, GW's actual sales strategy will depend on your balance sheet.

Sorry for the confusion

AlexHolker
15-01-2011, 17:48
I would love a plastic Warhound titan, makes even more sense than the thunderhawk, as any imperial could use it. It was the first thing I thought of when I saw they made stompas
Any Imperial can use either, according to the "FOC, what FOC?" rules of Apocalypse. The difference is that the Thunderhawk can also fit in with one army and interacts with that army (since it's a transport), while the Warhound is always going to be a hanger-on (albeit with more justification for acting alone) and doesn't really tie in with the army it's travelling with.

Sgt John Keel
15-01-2011, 17:58
Soo, if GW would be doing the Forgeworld things, does that mean that Forgeworld could do even more niche things? :D

Dooks Dizzo
15-01-2011, 18:01
I would be upset if this were true at all. Companies bankrupting themselves for 'fun' doesn't make sense in anyone's world.

Zweischneid
15-01-2011, 20:08
I'm not saying this will or won't happen. I was just saying that the the BBC article relate to retail sales whereas i got the impression that the OP/his source were referring to the balance sheet. Whilst obviously sales are very important, GW's actual sales strategy will depend on your balance sheet.



Nice breakdown. Not saying you are wrong, but the BBC article didn't relate to retail sales. The BBC article relates to GW stocks being down 18% as a consequence of GW having to report *random bad news*, in this case a drop in sales compared to the same period in the year before (2009.. with, I would presume, the Valkyrie/Vendetta selling like hot cakes in 2009 being no small part of that).

If GW could have avoided that drop for their shareholders by putting out good news on growing profit margins on their balance sheet, they would have. Given the drop in stocks, shareholders will be pushy; not content to wait for some 2 -4 years for some long-term pay-off even IF the original strategy had been that.

Cadian144
15-01-2011, 20:12
I had heard this rumor among other people but did not put much stock into it. I for one would love if GW was able to take over some of the |FW molds and go to town on them, specificaly the Imperial infantry FW has so many of. it would reduce down the cost for building armys tremendously.

The rest as to tanks and warhounds ??? Who would not want to buy a few of all these things if the price was even 30-40% less than FW ??

Anyone out there in the know , how does casting resin and casting in plastic differ ? One is cold cast the other is hot if i recall yes ? no ? i am not up on that but i do know the plastic system they have now would not work for the FW molds, that i know is differnt, unless i am way off base?? I think it would end up being very costly to put the same FW molds over to the plastic system. anyone ableto shed ligh on it if this is even feasbale or would it be very cost inefective ?

as we all know, with GW or any company, bottom line is " will this work ? will this make back our investment $$? And will we make money for the share holders ? "

Anyone able to shed some light please ?

Azzy
15-01-2011, 20:26
Even after draining the Dead Sea and the Utah Salt Flats... I still don't have enough salt for these "rumors".

adeptusphotographicus
15-01-2011, 21:13
The real question is not so much IF they will release such kits.. but how?

We all know they will not simply be released, such kits would be only released with a new edition of some book, some new expansion, or some other NEW NEW NEW thing. some vehicle to bring it in to the fold.. We all know this is true it has happened every single time they have made new kits.. a new codex follows, new edition rules, Apoc, Planetstrike, City Fight.

So the question is.. what will be the vehicle that brings us this Thunderhawk??

AlexHolker
15-01-2011, 21:18
Anyone out there in the know , how does casting resin and casting in plastic differ ? One is cold cast the other is hot if i recall yes ? no ? i am not up on that but i do know the plastic system they have now would not work for the FW molds, that i know is differnt, unless i am way off base?? I think it would end up being very costly to put the same FW molds over to the plastic system. anyone ableto shed ligh on it if this is even feasbale or would it be very cost inefective ?
GW would pretty much be starting from scratch. Therefore, since the resin work doesn't make the transfer any easier and a plastic kit will kill sales for any associated resin kit, GW would have to be sure that it's worth it. Otherwise they're better off leaving the FW version alone and making something else.

andyg2006
15-01-2011, 21:31
The new Stormraven is the same (virtually) as the front of a Thunderhawk.
Although (game-wise) the Stormraven is a model in it's own right, it's obvious that it's parts are basically a 'test-run'/preview for the 'hawk.
If you're thinking of making a model (plastic 'hawk) then it makes sense to either make the raven first and see what the reception is (eg could use it as a test to see how many 'hawks you might sell) then add the hawk bits onto the back...or make the hawk first -but don't release it- and then create a few extra bits (i.e. whatever's on the back end of the 'raven) to make them as a 2 from 1, yes?

freeeeekaz
15-01-2011, 22:07
I am all for plastic and everything... but the Tau Manta MUST be metal. Seriously.

I'll take 3.



Fun aside, I am not sure where the "news" comes from that GW is doing relatively well in their business?

Check this (scroll down): http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-12117510

Have you read the article completly? They just say that they don´t make as much as in last year, but nobody say´s that they don´t make money.

Fable
15-01-2011, 22:15
Well, it wouldn't surprise me to see a couple things pushed to GW, but if nothing else we've seen that GW doesn't tend to just do straight scan and print. If we use the Baneblade, Piranha, Valkyrie, Night Spinner, and medusa as examples we can see changes throughout the models, not to mention the hollowing effect to use less plastic than the solid blocks of resin FW uses.

If we were going to see things changed over I think it would be the transition of an Ork Fighta/Bomba single kit. An Eldar Nightwing/Phoenix single kit. A Tau Barracuda/random bomber or transport single kit. A Chaos Talon/Hellblade.

As for the veracity of this actual rumor? Well I refer you to my signature.

Azzy
15-01-2011, 22:58
Although (game-wise) the Stormraven is a model in it's own right, it's obvious that it's parts are basically a 'test-run'/preview for the 'hawk.

What you label "obvious" is what I would define as an "objectionably violent molestation of sense and logic". The Sraven and Thawk aren't even in the scale of parts, and given the difference in in-game role and pricing there would be no correlation between sales and/or reception of the Sraven to the potential sales/reception of the Thawk. Outside a vague aesthetic similarity and usage by Space Marines it's like comparing apples to pomegranates (oranges are right out).

AlexHolker
15-01-2011, 23:01
What you label "obvious" is what I would define as an "objectionably violent molestation of sense and logic". The Sraven and Thawk aren't even in the scale of parts, and given the difference in in-game role and pricing there would be no correlation between sales and/or reception of the Sraven to the potential sales/reception of the Thawk. Outside a vague aesthetic similarity and usage by Space Marines it's like comparing apples to pomegranates (oranges are right out).
You saved me the trouble of saying the same thing.

Spectral Dragon
15-01-2011, 23:04
I had heard a rumor that they had started work on "knightly titans" and a version of the Warhound which looks different than the FW ones. I also heard that the TH was "done" but that they were waiting for the flyer expansion to release it.

Bestial Fury
15-01-2011, 23:11
All the snails and slugs have shriveled up outside my house.

rodmillard
15-01-2011, 23:19
I heard a rumour that GW was going to capitalise on the interest in their future products, and start selling salt in stores.

Ragnar_Blackmane
15-01-2011, 23:45
Well, if you consider the FAQ updates yesterday you could seriously start to believe that GW actually CARES for 40k and the fans right now :shifty:...

A plastic Manta? Nope, that is never gonna happen.
Plastic Stormraven and Warhound? Why not? Stompas and Baneblades/Shadowswords sell well since they got their plastic releases and the fortress of redemption shows that you're able to do crazy stuff with plastic. If GW ever releases Hounds and Hawks as plastic kits these will propably sell twice as good as the FW ones (just like Valkyrie/BB/SH/Stompa etc) earning them more money...

Seriously, who WOULDN'T buy a cheap plastic titan?

But you never know what GW is up to or if they're actually sane if you consider the fact that they produced a Pyrovore model instead of models for THW cavalry :shifty: ...

Goatboy
15-01-2011, 23:47
Never understood all the fuss over a 40k scale T-hawk myself. I've never been a fan of the design and the thought of a model that big on a flying base just gives me the fear:(

Azazyll
16-01-2011, 00:46
Any Imperial can use either, according to the "FOC, what FOC?" rules of Apocalypse. The difference is that the Thunderhawk can also fit in with one army and interacts with that army (since it's a transport), while the Warhound is always going to be a hanger-on (albeit with more justification for acting alone) and doesn't really tie in with the army it's travelling with.

That's basically what I meant. I think you could sell the warhound harder to IG players than the thunderhawk. Same with sisters of battle, or even the long-hoped-for mechanicus.

It would be a lot bigger than the ork stompa they made, though, right? I haven't seen a size comparison. How well did that model sell? That kind of information would provide some context for this rumor.

Plus, even if this rumor is hogwash, I still imagine we'll see a plastic warhound someday.

Kendo
16-01-2011, 00:58
I think GW may have realized that apocalypse may have been a bit of an error, in that the games and models produced are not tourney legal, and resulted in reduced sales. I think they are avoiding that mistake with fantasy, and large models are integrated into main lists. isuspect if GW figures out a way to make Stompas and Thunderhawks tourney legal, and part of regular lists, we will see a lot more of them.

Still Standing
16-01-2011, 01:17
"Tourney legal" is the worst thing fans ever did to 40k. I don't give a damn if my Reaver, Warhound, my super heavy tanks, all my heavy artillery, and all the other stuff I have that is not "tourney legal" is. They are cool models, and that's the be all and end all. If you want "tourney legal" go play chess. It's a better wargame, and it's far better balanced (although white needs a nerf).

adeptusphotographicus
16-01-2011, 01:36
Well Said Still Standing.. well said indeed.

Tourney legal is the worst thing to happen to this hobby, takes all the fun out of things and for why? to appease a bunch of people who really do not care about the hobby anyways.

Apoc was a fantastic idea that really let the limits off.. now one could build and field any force they can imagine. awesome

shin'keiro
16-01-2011, 01:48
well this is good news if true.. ive never purchased FW stuff on principle - purely because they are way too expensive!!

Still Standing
16-01-2011, 01:52
Yet regular GW is far more reasonable! xD It's about 40 quid for a gorgeous FW dreadnought, or almost 30 for a butt ugly GW one... A few pounds get you a lot. A FW Krieg army and a GW Vostroyan army for example, are more or less the same price (I have large armies of both), so the myth that FW is stupidly more expensive is false, for a lot of ranges. However, that's far off topic.

In my experience most staffers who come up with new rumours read them on Warseer (or somewhere similar) anyway, so I doubt there is anything new here.

Azzy
16-01-2011, 02:53
ive never purchased FW stuff on principle - purely because they are way too expensive!!

I'd be able to understand this perspective a lot better if you were from the US (or elsewhere with a similarly weak local currency-to-BPS ratio) as conversion rates and shipping combine to make many of their products excessively expensive.

rabblerouser
16-01-2011, 05:24
I firmly believe that GW will make a plastic thunderhawk at some point. Why wouldn't they? I had a poll on warseer to see how many would buy one, and something like 2/3 of all marine players here said they would. It would be a very popular kit for GW, and I think it would outsell the stompa and the baneblade combined

Drain
16-01-2011, 05:42
I wonder what this would mean for all the Tau models from Forgeworld. Their suits were especially nice compared to the GW ones.

Voss
16-01-2011, 06:55
The new Stormraven is the same (virtually) as the front of a Thunderhawk.
Although (game-wise) the Stormraven is a model in it's own right, it's obvious that it's parts are basically a 'test-run'/preview for the 'hawk.

Is that obvious? If it did happen as a test for the thunderhawk, my guess is that it failed miserably, and they salvaged the usable bits and slapped them together as the stormraven.

Promethius
16-01-2011, 07:51
Seriously, who WOULDN'T buy a cheap plastic titan?

Well, exactly. I baulk at the cost of the forgeworld model, but would probably find £100 for a plastic warhound (and hide the receipt from my wife!). The same goes for a t-hawk. I would be extremely surprised if GW aren't planning plastics of both. The T-Hawk is so iconic they used to produce them in metal for petes sake!

Damien 1427
16-01-2011, 10:09
The T-Hawk is so iconic they used to produce them in metal for petes sake!

Yes, it was the largest thing they had ever made at the time, was apparently a nightmare to assemble, cost a crazy amount of money, was smaller than the current Forge World kit, and each came with a certificate of authenticity and packaged inside a specially-made wooden box.

Still Standing
16-01-2011, 11:38
It was only £175 if I remember correctly.

prowla
16-01-2011, 11:57
I firmly believe that GW will make a plastic thunderhawk at some point. Why wouldn't they? I had a poll on warseer to see how many would buy one, and something like 2/3 of all marine players here said they would. It would be a very popular kit for GW, and I think it would outsell the stompa and the baneblade combined

+1. I bet everyone, including their momma (especially true for the younger players) would want a Thunderhawk in their collection, and if it's around the 100 quid mark, it's well in xmas present range, too. It's the crown jewel of any Marine collection, so to speak.

Bunnahabhain
16-01-2011, 12:01
It was only £175 if I remember correctly.

Isn't inflation wonderful powerful? And I dread to think what the average rate of GW inflation is over and above the headline national rate...

scarletsquig
16-01-2011, 12:24
The plastic manta is going to be GW's first piece of 40k-themed furniture that they release.

When it's not on the playing field, just turn it upside down and slot it into the supplied frame for a comfortable seat!

andyg2006
16-01-2011, 12:33
Is that obvious? If it did happen as a test for the thunderhawk, my guess is that it failed miserably, and they salvaged the usable bits and slapped them together as the stormraven.

Pretty much, yes.
The hawk hasn't been released yet, but the raven is the front end of it. They'll have the plans for the rest of the hawk, but want to see how well received the raven is. (Think of a multipart kit where you have separate sections on separate sprues; essentially the raven is the sprues for the front half/third of the hawk and the hawk kit -if they released one- would add the sprues for the middle, guns, wings and back end).

neko
16-01-2011, 12:35
I definitely wouldn't be surprised by the Warhound. By my reckoning they're about the same size as a Baneblade/Shadowsword anyway, and would make an iconic addition to the Imperial forces.
The price and resin is what puts me off the FW offering, but if it was released in plastic, for under £100, I would be buying multiple Warhounds...

AndrewGPaul
16-01-2011, 12:39
The Stormraven may have the same general shape as the front of a Thunderhawk, but there's no way any of the pieces could be re-used. It's simply far too small.

Lavadude360
16-01-2011, 12:49
I think this is a stupid idea. If we are assuming this guy isn't talking out of his rear.

The reason FW exists is to create "prestige" models. So that those who want something out of the ordinary can get that. If all of the awesome products they release get sold on the highstreet then the prestige has been taken away. FW just becomes an R&D dept for GW.

rabblerouser
16-01-2011, 13:13
Never understood all the fuss over a 40k scale T-hawk myself. I've never been a fan of the design and the thought of a model that big on a flying base just gives me the fear:(

I would buy one just for display. Doubt I would ever play with it.

Azzy
16-01-2011, 14:37
I think this is a stupid idea. If we are assuming this guy isn't talking out of his rear.

The reason FW exists is to create "prestige" models. So that those who want something out of the ordinary can get that. If all of the awesome products they release get sold on the highstreet then the prestige has been taken away. FW just becomes an R&D dept for GW.

You just made me want this rumor to be true. :wtf:

Hendarion
16-01-2011, 15:28
The reason FW exists is to create "prestige" models. So that those who want something out of the ordinary can get that. If all of the awesome products they release get sold on the highstreet then the prestige has been taken away. FW just becomes an R&D dept for GW.

I wish you would be right with this. But actually GW has overtaken a lot from FW already and released it in plastic. So far none of my FW-models, but I know there will be a day when a little stupid kiddo will tell me: "Is this the expensive FW-Scorpion? You noob, this is available in plastic now for 30% of the FW-price!"
That kiddo will get a smash in the face, but this day will come, I can clearly see it already. (You can replace "Scorpion" with "Nightwing", "Hornet", "Revenant" or whatever else you wish)

Still Standing
16-01-2011, 15:42
Happened to my Baneblades, will sooner or later happen to my Titans, and Guard tanks.

Bunnahabhain
16-01-2011, 15:53
...... FW just becomes an R&D dept for GW.


So?

R&D is expensive and time consuming. If FW do the work, and come up with good designs that people want to buy, and with decent background, what is wrong with that?

I'd much rather have that than things like the storm raven ( urrgh) thunder wolves, the thunderfire cannon, or anything else with background created by Matt Ward, for a start. I'm not sure if the background are worse that the models for those examples, but both are fairly bad.

If FW had made them this badly, people wouldn't buy them, and GW wouldn't produce them without substantial revision at least- so we end up with better models and background.

Sound like a good result to me.

AlexHolker
16-01-2011, 17:11
Sound like a good result to me.
Agreed. If GW and FW can identify any FW products that sell despite being resin and not because they're resin, that would sell in large enough quantities to develop plastic versions, this is a good thing.

Take the Elysian Drop Troops. If they sell well because of the detail of the sculpts, they're better off left to Forge World. If they sell well because people prefer the proportions, they're better left to Forge World and this lesson applied to new IG. But if they sell well because people like Elysians, why not make plastic versions?

Hendarion
16-01-2011, 17:58
If they sell well because of the detail of the sculpts, they're better off left to Forge World. If they sell well because people prefer the proportions, they're better left to Forge World.

And that is why I buy Forgeworld and would not want to see them cheap in plastic... personally.

chandrila
16-01-2011, 20:49
Plastic.... Manta..... Right.

The plastic Baneblade is about half the cost of the old Forge World one, so a plastic Manta would clock in at a measly £472.50. I can see those just flying off the shelves.... and crushing half a dozen poor kids underneath the box, which would be the size of an entire Citadel Realm of Battle Gameboard and weigh about half a tonne, since it would contain about 500 sprues.

Seriously though, turning FW products into plastic equivalents has already happened and we have no reason to believe that it won't continue to. This sounds like idle speculation more than anything. Other superheavies are probably in the pipeline, but smaller units (flyers, tanks and the like) are much more likely.

Azazyll
16-01-2011, 20:57
And that is why I buy Forgeworld and would not want to see them cheap in plastic... personally.

Goign to have to disagree with you, but then, a fifteen percent markup to the states for shipping really biases my opinion.

Hendarion
16-01-2011, 21:01
The fifteen percent shipping is not only to the states. But normally we organize group orders and so we pay no shipping costs at all. Once you pass the 250 pound border, shipping is free.

neko
16-01-2011, 21:26
I always saw FW as being for cool but risky models. IIRC, resin modelling has low up front costs, and high running costs, so if a FW model does't sell well, there's no big loss.

I'd be very doubtful that FW is actually there to give rich idiots an excuse to be snobbish. That said rich idiots feel their snobbishness being threatened should not be a deciding factor for if GW starts to mass produce a FW miniature.

Azzy
16-01-2011, 21:49
I'd be very doubtful that FW is actually there to give rich idiots an excuse to be snobbish. That said rich idiots feel their snobbishness being threatened should not be a deciding factor for if GW starts to mass produce a FW miniature.

I heart you. :evilgrin:

Ultimately, GW will follow the path that makes them the most money... Will a THawk or Warhound in plastic move more units than in resin? Yep. Will the profit from increased unit sales at a lower price point for plastic units equal or exceed the profit generated from the resin units? Most likely. Especially when the resin versions have no doubt made their (R&D, Production, et al.) money back, there's no loss to switching to plastic--especially if projected sales of plastic units will be on par with that of the plastic Baneblade & Stompa.

Will there be plastic versions of Thawks, Warhounds and the like (there are some things I wouldn't expect though)? Most assuredly. When? Until one of the reliable rumormongers says it's coming or GW announces it themselves, I suggest that people don't get their hopes up or hold their breath. They'll happen, but eventually.

Layla
16-01-2011, 23:26
Games Workshop would please a wider variety and greater number of players by releasing a wider variety of smaller plastic kits that would see more action then a smaller number of specialist kits. A single box of SoB troopers much like a marine tac squad, A rhino upgrade kit that allows you to convert a rhino into the variety of tanks based on the same chassis, the same for chimera, stormtroopers or greatcoat guardsmen. These few alone would cost them less then a single warhound or hawk kit as well as make them a boatload more money in sales and another boatload in supporting sales of current models to support these basic kits as people started totally new armies based on the new kits.
I ran out of salt and am sending an order to the Dead Sea for more.

Still Standing
16-01-2011, 23:33
They already have upgrade kits for Rhinos to make them a variety of vehicles based on the same chassis. Razorback, Whirlwind, Predator, Bhaal Predator, Vindicator, Immolator, Exorcist, then all the ones FW do too.

Greatcoat guardsmen wouldn't make them all that much money. Currently if somebody wants a guard army they spend their £300 on Cadians or Johnny Age 5 guardsmen (Catachans). If they add in Greatcoat Guardsmen then that person simply has a third choice, but will usually only spend his £300. If a person is more interested in fancy guardsmen than money, they will just spend £1000 on Krieg, metal Vostroyans or any of the other specialist ranges. Making them in plastic will not likely bring any more cash in for GW

Son of Morkai
16-01-2011, 23:50
Forget Warhounds and Thunderhawks. GW's first priority should be FW's Rhino chassis extra armour. Who uses it? EVERYONE. How many would each person need? THOUSANDS. Well, dozens. Sure, it's easy enough to make on your own, but it's even easier to snip, file and glue. And in this day and age of mechanized everything, the demand is there.

Throw it in the Rhino box, mark it up to $35, and BAM. Now there's a reason to buy a Rhino instead of a Razorback. Put the sprue on the website on it's own and see webstore revenue triple.

The big things are all well and good. I'd love a plastic Thunderhawk. Less so a Warhound, since the current FW Warhounds just aren't as cute as the old Epicast ones. But I think some of the smaller things would probably offer more bang for their buck. I mean, how many people are going to run out and buy multiple Warhounds? But nearly everyone would buy extra armour. Every Sister of Battle player would grab a few Repressors over Rhinos. Marine players would love plastic Rifleman arms. Tarantulas would be great add-ons to terrain kits.

Unless they want to bring back the cute Warhounds. I'll take a dozen, tyvm.

Layla
17-01-2011, 00:03
Games Workshop, does make parts for the upgrades for the rhino and chimera chassis. It does not market them as just the upgrades without the chassis. Were they to package them in this manner, they might or might not turn a profit.You are right though, they have already made the upgrades. That means the efforts could once more be put into new smaller kitsthat would sell in greater numbers.
Likewise, the greatcoat guardsmen. This would bring about all new guard players who would not have otherwise started guard armies because they do not like the current ones and cannot afford forgeworld. Forgeworld has already made a huge profit from Krieg and sales for them have started to slack off. Add in some new metal greatcoat models to support the plastics and a greater profit can be made. The same can be said for plastic sisters.
A few people spending $150 for a plastic hawk or titan vs those few multiplied by thousands spending $300-$500 for whole new armies.

Azzy
17-01-2011, 00:28
Games Workshop would please a wider variety and greater number of players by releasing a wider variety of smaller plastic kits that would see more action then a smaller number of specialist kits. A single box of SoB troopers much like a marine tac squad, A rhino upgrade kit that allows you to convert a rhino into the variety of tanks based on the same chassis, the same for chimera, stormtroopers or greatcoat guardsmen. These few alone would cost them less then a single warhound or hawk kit as well as make them a boatload more money in sales and another boatload in supporting sales of current models to support these basic kits as people started totally new armies based on the new kits.

GW already releases "smaller" kits on a monthly basis. Sure, they could release more than they do now but would it actually be viable to offer more product in a monthly window than the average consumer would be willing to buy and thus diluting their short term sales? Beside, GW has already committed to releasing large models (typically 1-2 a year), why would they stop this when it's been working out well for them thus far (even in an economic recession)?

Also, GW is unlikely to release vehicle upgrade kits as you suggest as they already offer complete kits for the "upgraded" vehicle. Also, upgrade kits apparently are not hot sellers which is apparently why the few that do exist tend to be direct only.

Still Standing
17-01-2011, 00:30
They tend to release them for short periods in store when a new Codex comes out. For example, the Black Templars and Dark Angels upgrade kits (not sure if Blood Angels have one). I fully expect the Sisters of Battle to get a similar kit when the book is released (eventually) and for it to be pulled off the shelves a few months later and go to the online store only.

ataxia12
17-01-2011, 00:48
I agree with the elysians!

Layla
17-01-2011, 02:30
No one is asking for them to suddenly flood the market with lots of small kits at once. The better bet would be for them to release more smaller kits over a longer period of time to draw more players into the hobby and encourage current players to expand their armies and start new ones. Putting out a super large kit that only a select few players can use once or twice a year is not as good a bet in terms of making money or pleasing the gaming community at large.
Not to say that plastic titans and hawks would not be welcome. I'm just saying that the other would be more welcome and more financially viable.

Brother Weasel
17-01-2011, 02:38
what is putting out a big mini once a year cutting into? it's not like the are stopping production on everything for 6 months to make one... expecialy when they start on the fw models.

second, how many armies could take a warhound? all imp and chaos... how many could take a thawk? how many people have an sm army...

Layla
17-01-2011, 02:51
When putting all of their resources into making a single model while cutting out other production or development, they are limiting themselves.
As to who has an imperial marine army, I would say maybe about half of the players. Narrow it down a bit more by asking how many players have only an imperial marine army and no others or how many have armies that are their main army of choice to use in games, the number gets a tad bit smaller.
Now ask yourself this, What is the percentage of games played by a SoB player where they use SoB models or guard players using guardsmen models or nid players using nid models? Then ask yourself, what it the percentage of games played where an imperial marine army where they will use a titan?
You see? Numbers don't lie. Of course, if you personally would rather see a titan model then anything else, feel free to keep posting that that is what you want. No one will blame you at all. Just know that it is not as economically viable and would be less pleasing to the community as a whole even though it would make a lot of us, me included, happy.

Brother Weasel
17-01-2011, 04:11
"When putting all of their resources into making a single model while cutting out other production or development,"

on what world are they putting all of their resources into any single mini? they have a team of sculptors, one, maybe 2 of them would work on it, along with other items at the same time, like they do with every thing...


As to who has an imperial marine army, I would say maybe about half of the players.

i remember there being more then half the sales being SM alone... but i can't back it up any more then you can, so we'll say half the 40k people play an imperial army


Narrow it down a bit more by asking how many players have only an imperial marine army and no others or how many have armies that are their main army of choice to use in games, the number gets a tad bit smaller

so if you own an imperial army and it isn't your main, you won't expand it at all? that's a stretch.. i have 2 armies i expand both as i feel like it... i have a buddy with 4 and he cycles through what he adds to them as kits come out, though he only plays his nids 99% of the time...


Now ask yourself this, What is the percentage of games played by a SoB player where they use SoB models or guard players using guardsmen models or nid players using nid models?Then ask yourself, what it the percentage of games played where an imperial marine army where they will use a titan? ok, me... that's one (already have the titan) don't' really get your point here... how many SOB players are going to use new SOB parts? not all of em, how mane GK players are going to use new GK parts when they come out.. not all of em...

the better question to ask is how much profit per mini or upgrade... id you make $1 on an upgrade (just a number) and $10 on a mini, then you have to sell 10 upgrades to make the profit of the one mini.... and I'm not going to pretend to know the answer. but will the upgrade sell 10x the amount of the mini?


You see? Numbers don't lie.

what numbers? even if they don't put out a large model it's not like they are going to flood the market with upgrade in that 1 slot... they just won't. that's not how they do things... they have minis done and ready to go waiting to be released... it's not like they are frantically sculpting minis to meat a deadline to get the SR out, it's been done since at least November.. there are only so many slots to put out minis a year...

I simply don't agree that small kits are what is "needed"
or that making a large kit (ala the baneblade and stompa) take "all their resources" (and as i stated, when they are starting with FW product it takes even less, since the kits are there, they just need to fine tune them for plastic)...


Of course, if you personally would rather see a titan model then anything else, feel free to keep posting that that is what you want.

sorry to disappoint you, but I'm not wish-listing, I'm just not agreeing with your assessment.


No one will blame you at all.

yea, that was a worry i had, the internet message bored blaming me for something, that's a load off my mind...


Just know that it is not as economically viable

do you have a degree in economics? I'm pretty sure the Baneblade was viable, witch led them to release the stopma, that also sold well(at least in my area) , and led them to produce blade variants...


and would be less pleasing to the community as a whole even though it would make a lot of us, me included, happy.

so, you have your finger on the pulse of the community, even though most people here don't even agree with you... you do know that they could do both if they wanted... it's not like they would all of a sudden stop making new smaller kits and put out 3 warhound variants, a thunderhawk, and all the other superheavies in one year... they would likely do like they have been for the last few years, and puttig out one kit a year.. that leave the rest of the time to release smaller kits...

Azzy
17-01-2011, 06:43
Putting out a super large kit that only a select few players can use once or twice a year is not as good a bet in terms of making money or pleasing the gaming community at large.

And yet doing so seems not only viable but profitable enough to encourage the production and sales of additional mega kits. Since this has proven to be profitable for GW, why do you think they'd suddenly stop producing such kits?

You seem to be arguing for GW to do what you personally want them to do instead of doing what they are currently doing (to apparent success). Mega kits will keep coming as long as it proves profitable. Than means, regardless of the rumor in the OP (which sounds more like a shot in the dark than having any basis in fact), continuing to turn other FW kits into plastic kits. Which ones and when I caution to speculate until something much more concrete turns up. However, I must reiterate that as long as such kits are profitable (as they have thus far proven to be) GW will keep producing them. It's not a matter of debate however much you think an alternate strategy would be better.

Hendarion
17-01-2011, 06:55
how many people have an sm army...
Well, I don't. :P

Shadey
17-01-2011, 09:48
I think this is a stupid idea. If we are assuming this guy isn't talking out of his rear.

The reason FW exists is to create "prestige" models. So that those who want something out of the ordinary can get that. If all of the awesome products they release get sold on the highstreet then the prestige has been taken away. FW just becomes an R&D dept for GW.

Let me get this straight. Your seriously pissy because you don't want a model to become cheaper and more accessible so more people can have it, because you would rather keep it exclusively to yourself and your like?

Still Standing
17-01-2011, 09:52
...and your like?

I would like to know what "your like" is? Before I report your post as offensive, would you care to explain and justify that statement?

AlexHolker
17-01-2011, 10:02
And that is why I buy Forgeworld and would not want to see them cheap in plastic... personally.
That's not what I was saying. If people buy Elysians because they like Elysians, then they should be redone in plastic. If people buy Elysians because they like detailed, well proportioned models, GW should make detailed, well proportioned plastics for other regiments first, to provide the maximum variety for the less work.

Godzooky
17-01-2011, 10:07
I would like to know what "your like" is? Before I report your post as offensive, would you care to explain and justify that statement?

Chill, brother. I think he was just being a champion of the working man and assuming that you were a member of the war-gaming aristocracy that's held the plastic-buying masses down whilst enjoying your access to the finest resins. I see nothing in his post that could really be deemed offensive. Just imagine him in his drafty mud hut, breathing in polystyrene cement fumes, and give him a break.

I would love a plastic Warhound, personally. Hopefully one day it may be realistic with the way GW's plastic tech seems to be going. :)

Shadey
17-01-2011, 10:20
It wasn't meant to be offensive but if your going to be so prickly go ahead and report me. I am not going to explain myself to you because you threaten me over something so innocent.

If Lavadude asks, if a mod asks, hell even if another person asks politely I will explain, but I won't be extorted by you.

And thank you Godzooky. Something like that..

Edit: Mainly adding this because I didn't like to make a post just about the unpleasantness above. If you want to talk to me Still Standing, send me a private message please.

I was almost finished with GW, I've stopped buying white dwarf, i have weened myself off of the minis, then the FAQ updates to Dark Angels stealing my indignation and now more rumours of a Thunderhawk.. Damn you you succubus GW!

sidcom
17-01-2011, 10:28
second, how many armies could take a warhound? all imp and chaos...

and anyone else as an ally..

on the other hand, apoc rules says you can tranport "friendly units" in super heavies, so theoretically you can stick anything in TH, it would just look very silly unless you make up some "genestealers kidnapped my thunderhawk and are going to crash it into ground" Aliens like story :)

Grimtuff
17-01-2011, 10:36
Wow, this thread is the saltiest thing i've ever ingested, and i've eaten a whole bowl of salt! :p

The Anarchist
17-01-2011, 10:53
i take this entire thing with salt, however people doubted plastic baneblades, valkyries and stompa before we saw it. so i can happen. fingers crossed and lets see where this goes

Nomrana Est
17-01-2011, 11:34
Mmm, salty goodness.

Mind you, for me, it's only a matter of time before GW make plastic versions of a lot of FW stuff, however, I think that the Hydra and Bombard will be released in plastic way before they come up with a plastic THawk and Warhound.

Don't get me wrong, I would love and buy both, but would I use them, outside of Apoc, using IA rules? No. There is no real need of them, much like there is no real need for the Baneblade and Stompa, as they are only really used in Apoc, and maybe Spearhead. They may prove profitable, but only for a very short time, namely in the few months after release, when every man and his dog will want one, and, those with the money to buy them, will do so.

I ask this question. How many Baneblades or Stompas do you have? Just the one, or multiples? Would you be bothered to get any more?

KingDeath
17-01-2011, 12:37
Instead of more Apoc stuff i would greatly prefer if GW would finally release some of the missing plastic miniatures. I simply don't want to pay 50-70 bucks for a single Medusa siege gun from Forgeworld.

Layla
17-01-2011, 14:20
Thats the problem. No one is saying that they would not make money or a profit on plastic titans and hawks. They likely would. All that is being said is that they would make a much larger profit by putting the resources into other things such as expanding what is already out, making more options and giving plastics to armies that do not currently have them. Many seem to be arguing for what they want to see personally rather then what would support the company as a whole through profitability. Remember the larger kits are profitable and make them money (not as much as the smaller sets but still profitable) and I would love to see more of them so long as they do not focus exclusively on them to the point where they neglect other armies and model ranges.
I did not want to get into quality issues because many players would indeed rather have a lower quality titan that they can save up for then a higher quality one they they will never be able to afford.
Titans and hawks make great showpieces and may actually see action once or twice a year. A few more in some cases, a lot less in most. Smaller models would see much more action as well as encourage players to expand or start whole new armies that they might not otherwise have been able to or otherwise have wanted to.
Of course, all of this is likely moot because it is likely not going to happen in either direction anytime soon.

sidcom
17-01-2011, 14:49
Speaking of profit, does anyone have a clue if they make a profit on current FW Thunderhawks, Reavers and such? How much of this super expensive models they can actually sell?

eldargal
17-01-2011, 14:56
Well, I heard GW were ready to produce a plastic Revenant and Scorpion for Eldar, but the staff members who told me were hitting on me at the time and contradicting each other so I didn't take it seriously. I still don't, but if the OP is correct maybe there was a small grain of truth to it.

Layla
17-01-2011, 15:02
LOL, Part of the reason I do not spend a lot of time in game shops. We are sniffed out before we even walk in the door.

Bunnahabhain
17-01-2011, 15:03
They must make some profit on them

Otherwise they wouldn't be bringing out new large models in the same price bracket- ie the latest Eldar Titans. I imagine the designers have some freedom to try stuff they feel like, to see if it works, but surely they would be told not to do the £300-400 stuff it it wasn't selling at all

IIRC the big imperial fortress was done for GW for a games day, then they decided that since they had the moulds, they could try and sell it.....

Hendarion
17-01-2011, 15:22
I did not want to get into quality issues because many players would indeed rather have a lower quality titan that they can save up for then a higher quality one they they will never be able to afford.
Titans and hawks make great showpieces and may actually see action once or twice a year.
See? If I already buy a model that will only be in my shelves in order to look good, I really want it to be looking good after all, because else it will fail in all aspects:
- price (even plastic titans will not be cheap at all!)
- looking well (plastic looks less good, you can't tell me different - not to mention all those assembly-lines that have to be closed with greenstuff, but aren't filled by 95% of all those headless-kids that buy and paint these kits in order to field them and to destroy enemies, not in order to love them because of love to the hobby)
- feels good (hell, a nice heavy lump of full-resin body feels so much better than empty plastic butter boxes that always will at least require 2 halves to form a tube-like shape)
- is played often (and titans surely aren't because of various reasons, transport and rare Apoc games are just two of them)

@Eldargal:
They did work on at least a Scorpion chassis some time ago, but canceled it, because of the huge floating hull. I guess in the meantime that is no longer a technical issue for them.

Omniassiah
17-01-2011, 15:45
Thats the problem. No one is saying that they would not make money or a profit on plastic titans and hawks. They likely would. All that is being said is that they would make a much larger profit by putting the resources into other things such as expanding what is already out, making more options and giving plastics to armies that do not currently have them. Many seem to be arguing for what they want to see personally rather then what would support the company as a whole through profitability. Remember the larger kits are profitable and make them money (not as much as the smaller sets but still profitable) and I would love to see more of them so long as they do not focus exclusively on them to the point where they neglect other armies and model ranges.
I did not want to get into quality issues because many players would indeed rather have a lower quality titan that they can save up for then a higher quality one they they will never be able to afford.
Titans and hawks make great showpieces and may actually see action once or twice a year. A few more in some cases, a lot less in most. Smaller models would see much more action as well as encourage players to expand or start whole new armies that they might not otherwise have been able to or otherwise have wanted to.
Of course, all of this is likely moot because it is likely not going to happen in either direction anytime soon.

Smaller models won't be bought more then larger models. Why, initial cost difference. Chances are if you didn't buy the forgeworld reinforced armor at 15-25 dollars your not going to buy it at the GW $15-20 price point. And if you think that it will be cheaper then any of the current upgrade sprues on sale from GW your smoking something.

Now on the other hand if you bought a superheavy for $2-300, or if you just couldn't afford that price point, you may very well consider picking up one at a $100-150 price point. Those that couldn't buy one at the FW price point may be able to rationalize the expenditure at the much lower cost.

Now as for the question on how many they sell... I got myself mars pattern baneblade #654 for christmas 2002 and Mars pattern Warhound #154 for christmas 2004. so you might be able to get a rough extrapolation on how well they were selling based on how long they had been out by those times. Won't be completely accurate but close to it. Maybe someone would have a later model to compare to.

ted1138
17-01-2011, 15:45
As much as I would love to buy a plastic Thunderhawk, i have to ask, what would i use it for? Not many games (or tables) are big enough for it, and the same goes for titans. I'd rather they got around to doing accessory sprues for some of the lesser chapters.

sidcom
17-01-2011, 15:58
I would use it for Apoc games, definitely great thing for capturing far objectives with additional super firepower and 100/100 coolness factor. Why WOULDNT anyone use it? :)

rabblerouser
17-01-2011, 16:07
All that is being said is that they would make a much larger profit by putting the resources into other things such as expanding what is already out, making more options and giving plastics to armies that do not currently have them.

They made the fortress of redemption. How many of those did they sell? I thought it was cool but I did not buy one. It wasn't as detailed as a thunderhawk needs to be, but the metal molds costs the same to cnc no matter how much detail they carry. Plus the thunderhawk would be super easy to render in 3d because 1. A good version already exists so you could scan it and just tweak it and 2. It's a brick with wings so re-drawing it in 3d would not take much time

thoughtfoxx
17-01-2011, 16:34
I sincerely hope that they do all the plastic rationalization first, though it appears unlikely. - Things like a SM techmarine with ALL the upgrades, tactical squads with ALL the upgrades, SM Commander with ALL the upgrades, Dread with ALL the upgrades... wait I am sensing a pattern here.

Promethius
17-01-2011, 17:00
Well it would surely be nice to fill the holes in different miniature races - ig artillery and hydra being one - a large number of people would buy a titan/thawk because it is so cool, even if only used a couple of times a year. I don't know what the profit margin for a big kit like that is, but how many people buy - say - four tactical squads? If you are only going to sell three or so boxes of a kit per customer, then surely one big kit with a large profit margin would be equivalent if not more than several boxes of a smaller model. Not sure what happened to those revenant/scorpion rumours, maybe it's being held back for a summer release?

sheck2
17-01-2011, 17:22
The amount of plastic in the fortress of redemption or realm of battles board is about equal to the amount you'd need for a thunderhawk....

I have neither the FoR or RoB, but how many sprues?

My understanding was a plastic TH was done, but required ~18 Baneblade size sprues. That's about triple a baneblade...meaning the 'base' price for a plastic TH would be $300 and they could (and will charge) more because of popularity.

So a plastic TH is unlikley as a platic $400 model is more affordable than a resin $600-$700 model, but it's still too much to sell profitability in volume.

philbrad2
17-01-2011, 17:24
There is simply no NEWS or RUMOUR in this thread and its off to 40K GENERAL

PhilB
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AlexHolker
17-01-2011, 17:54
My understanding was a plastic TH was done, but required ~18 Baneblade size sprues.
What are you basing this on? We don't even know that they're making one, let alone how many sprues they'd be using.

Mannimarco
17-01-2011, 19:39
I really cant see it being 18 baneblade sized sprues.

The Obdurate Bureaucrat
17-01-2011, 20:46
Assuming that more mega kits are in the pipeline at some undetermined point in the future, and based on the fact that there are no less than three currently in production (one of which has a slew of variants and another which is honest-to-god Titan-sized)...I'm prepared to believe that SOMETHING will happen along these lines.

My money would be on the Warhound Titan, personally. Thunderhawks will sell to hardcore SM collectors/players, but because the Warhound is essentially non-aligned, you have a far greater pool of potential buyers - SM/IG/=I= and variants and CSM players.

A T-Hawk would be a dramatic leap in scale for both production and packaging, whereas a Warhound isn't that much bigger than a Stompa - it just carries its bulk differently. Take away the big carapace and leg plates and what you're left with is essentially a crouched, fairly slimline humanoid armature with disproportionately sized arms and feet. It would probably consist of a larger number of smaller and more intricate parts than the Stompa, which is essentially just an upturned bucket with a crude head, spindly arms and elephant feet sticking out of it. A Warhound kit could afford to impress with its intricacy and potential pose-ability, rather than by how many extra gubbinz you can squeeze onto the sprues to decorate it :D.

FYI, the FW Warhounds stand around 12"-14" tall depending on how the legs are assembled - imagine a Baneblade stood on end.

"We can build it. We have the technology..." ;)

AlphariusOmegon20
18-01-2011, 01:18
The next superheavy is likely to be the Thunderhawk.

Fortress of Redemption showed they can do long flat panels. The problem is that unlike the fortress, the Thunderhawk cannot duplicate as many sprues.

Currently, it can only be used in Apocalypse, or the one Battle Mission mission. However, a thunderhawk could be sold along 7 different armies easily (Space Marines, Chaos Space Marines, Space Wolves, Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Black Templars, and Grey Knights), and like everything else, Orks can loot it to make a Thunda'Ork.


8 marine armies, not 7. You forgot Chaos has them also.

AndrewGPaul
18-01-2011, 08:21
I'm not sure they do. For whatever reason, there's been a distinct lack of Chaos Thunderhawk Gunships in the setting thus far.

neko
18-01-2011, 08:44
FYI, the FW Warhounds stand around 12"-14" tall depending on how the legs are assembled - imagine a Baneblade stood on end.
FW gives the height of the Warhound as being 10.5". I sometimes wonder if the resistence to a plastic titan is coming from people who don't realise just how small they can be...

RevEv
18-01-2011, 08:55
The Thunderhawk has already been out in metal - as a very limited edition and super expensive box set. Also, once put together, they tended to fall apart on a regular basis. I had the 'joy' of having to dust round one in the cabinet at GW Cribbs Causeway and it was always emotional, especially as it belonged to the area manager who would come and check on it regularly (it was the one featured in the 3rd Ed Chaos Codex).

chromedog
18-01-2011, 10:22
Anyone out there in the know , how does casting resin and casting in plastic differ ? One is cold cast the other is hot if i recall yes ? no ? i am not up on that but i do know the plastic system they have now would not work for the FW molds, that i know is differnt, unless i am way off base?? I think it would end up being very costly to put the same FW molds over to the plastic system. anyone ableto shed ligh on it if this is even feasbale or would it be very cost inefective ?



As someone who has been resin casting for many years now ...

Resin casting:
1: Uses a mould made of a Room-Temperature-Vulcanising silicone rubber (RTV) (so does metal casting - different rubber - heat resistant for metal is the main difference in moulds for resin/metal).
2: Resin is poured into the mould (not under pressure, it's generally a gravity fed system) where it is allowed to set and cure. The mould is taken apart, the casting removed and then the process begins again.
Resin casting takes longer per cast (nature of the material). Because the casts are solid pieces, air bubbles often result because the resin gives off heat as it cures. This can be ameliorated by the usage of a pressure vessel (which forces the bubbles out during the curing).
Anyone can do a resin casting setup in their garage. It costs less than $50 to make a resin casting mould. $100 can do you mould and 40-50 casts easily. The downside is that resin moulds are not guaranteed for more than a couple of hundred casts (at best) even with mould release agents (as the resin has compounds that attack the rubber)


Plastics moulding is very different.
1: The moulds are steel. Milled out of a solid block. They are heavier and a lot more expensive to make. They take longer to wear out (and generally damage is caused by misaligned dies ( a mould is more accurately called a die - like the colourful cubes with numbers on them often used by gamers ) slamming into each other - as it is done at high speed with a LOT of force.

2: They require the use of an injection system. This is a machine that handles heating of the plastic, compression/pressure on the mouldings, often cutting/trimming and ejection. These machines can easily do several thousands of units per hour. Misaligned dies (mould slip) where the two sides do not line up - often results in an entire batch run suffering.

Look up the Lego production videos on youtube. This is how an injection moulding machine works. They even slow it down so that you can see the actions. LEGO just does much higher volumes.

Steel-trap injection moulding dies cost a lot more to make - but can make many more units.
The machines cost a lot more to make and take up a lot more room.
Power, water (they are generally water cooled), hydraulics.

It often costs around between $10k and $20k PER set of dies for a single plastic sprue (you need two dies per sprue). You need to hire (or own the machine) that they fit into, plus add materiel costs. It often costs around $100,000 for a single model run, but the numbers produced in that run dwarf that of a run for resin - making it a cheaper option IN THE LONG RUN than resin casting for HIGH VOLUME sales.

The Marshel
18-01-2011, 10:31
I'm not sure they do. For whatever reason, there's been a distinct lack of Chaos Thunderhawk Gunships in the setting thus far.

the apoc rulebook basically says what ever goes, id imagin chaos players would be happy to get their hands on them either way.

and i'm sure there will be a chaos thunderhawk in the corresponding white dwarf should a plastic thawk be released. the apoc battle report featuring t hawks will prob even be chaos vs imperium for t hawks on both sides

Hendarion
18-01-2011, 11:18
Very nice and detailed information, chromedog.

chromedog
18-01-2011, 11:50
Not a problem. Information simplified to get the main points across.
The info is out there and isn't really hard to find, but a lot of it is highly technical.

GW don't own their own Injection moulding machines. They lease time on another company's setup. They DO own the company that makes their dies now, though (bought last year) and they ARE looking at buying out the moulding company.

silentsmoke
18-01-2011, 11:54
I think this sets things I. Motion, 6th edition or even 7th edition 40k, super heavies and fliers in a codex.

Makes sense if you look at the past large plastic kits and terrain sets.

Being a past employee at GW I doubt they have paid of there loan, but can't be far off. The contracts with FW and GW are interesting from whati know.

It's good that GW have riven FW more freedom to do as they will as that was a big no no two years back. Looks like they have come to some kind of agreement to produce kits which give gamers far more choice.

Which is all good.

Yeah I remember the plastic thunder hawk rumour and the talks of it. Give it time and a valley of salt!

MarcoSkoll
18-01-2011, 16:28
I had a poll on warseer to see how many would buy one, and something like 2/3 of all marine players here said they would.
No. 2/3rds of the marine players who were interested enough to open your topic and vote said they would.

This is a form of selection bias. People who care about a Thunderhawk kit in plastic are far more likely to vote upon seeing your thread than those who couldn't care, thus providing an artificially high percentage.

~~~~~

Anyway, if they were to make a plastic Warhound (Mars Pattern, not a fan of the Lucius pattern) of good quality, then I'd probably buy it. I doubt it'll happen though and I imagine that if they do a Warhound at all, it'd be Lucius pattern - easier shapes to cast.

AlphariusOmegon20
18-01-2011, 17:36
I'm not sure they do. For whatever reason, there's been a distinct lack of Chaos Thunderhawk Gunships in the setting thus far.

Trust me, they do.

x-esiv-4c
18-01-2011, 17:47
"Okay I know you guys can be nazi's about this lol"

All credibility lost.

Commissar Davis
18-01-2011, 17:53
Thing is, the way things are going, it would probably work out cheaper buying the resin now than the plastic later.

Friedrich von Offenbach
18-01-2011, 19:34
I'm not sure they do. For whatever reason, there's been a distinct lack of Chaos Thunderhawk Gunships in the setting thus far.

Isn't it because thunderhawks were invented late in the great crusade so most of the chaos legions only have a few thunderhawks. For more recent renegades, well they still seem to have to have armouries like the legions and can't take things like multi meltas:shifty:

MajorWesJanson
19-01-2011, 04:07
Thing is, the way things are going, it would probably work out cheaper buying the resin now than the plastic later.

Not for the thunderhawk. In plastic, I expect between $175 and $250 for a plastic, that is far lighter, far easier to build, and easier to mod with other parts than the resin hawk, which is aging and hard to assemble. I wonder if FW is not going to redo the thunderhawk mold since a plastic one is in the works.

AlphariusOmegon20
19-01-2011, 04:31
Isn't it because thunderhawks were invented late in the great crusade so most of the chaos legions only have a few thunderhawks.

Correct. But we still do have them. Some Legions do have more than others though.

(The Night Lords and maybe Alpha Legion seem like they would have more than any other Legion.)

-Loki-
19-01-2011, 10:04
Not for the thunderhawk. In plastic, I expect between $175 and $250 for a plastic, that is far lighter, far easier to build, and easier to mod with other parts than the resin hawk, which is aging and hard to assemble. I wonder if FW is not going to redo the thunderhawk mold since a plastic one is in the works.

Forgeworld pricing is weird, mainly depending on your country. It's cheaper in Australia to buy a Forgeworld Hive Tyrant than a GW Hive Tyrant, for example. A Warhound comes to about $350au, but when you consider we pay over $150 for a Baneblade, it's a bit more tolerable.

AlexHolker
19-01-2011, 10:16
Forgeworld pricing is weird, mainly depending on your country. It's cheaper in Australia to buy a Forgeworld Hive Tyrant than a GW Hive Tyrant, for example. A Warhound comes to about $350au, but when you consider we pay over $150 for a Baneblade, it's a bit more tolerable.
That's weird GWAU pricing, not weird FW pricing. Nobody in their right mind buys from Australian retailers.

kevhooper
30-01-2011, 01:54
me personnally, if they are converting FW resin to GW plastic then I'd love to see more IG regiments! as much as the cadians and catachan are good models, there needs to be a tonne more scope... GW GIVE US GREATCOATS, PLEASE!!!

-Loki-
30-01-2011, 05:21
That's weird GWAU pricing, not weird FW pricing. Nobody in their right mind buys from Australian retailers.

Whichever way you look at it, it's still pretty affordable in Australia. Hell, my fiancee bought me a Hierophant. $350au. That's just about 2 Baneblades/Stompas over here, which isn't bad at all.

As for our pricing, people who buy whole armies at a time over here buy them online (usually from maelstrom). Small purchases and impulse buying is done quite a lot at GW retailers, people are always handing money over in GW stores and stockists.

AlexHolker
30-01-2011, 11:08
me personnally, if they are converting FW resin to GW plastic then I'd love to see more IG regiments! as much as the cadians and catachan are good models, there needs to be a tonne more scope... GW GIVE US GREATCOATS, PLEASE!!!
I'm in favour of this. It only takes three sprues (Command, Squad and Heavy Weapon) to fully support a new Regiment. Just throw some bits for a tank gunner/sentinel pilot on one of the sprues, and you're set.

Grand Master Raziel
30-01-2011, 15:48
I really don't see plastic Titans and Thunderhawks as being a good investment in GW's resources. Those things are only useful in Apocalypse, and while I'm sure Apocalypse has its partisans, it's not exactly practical to plan to go to to the LGS and try and get in a pickup Apocalypse game. Not to mention the logistical problems with transporting a whole assembled Thawk or Titan. As long as GW still has 40K scale units that don't yet have models or are still in pewter, it makes no sense at all to put into production gargantuan plastic models that can't even be used in standard 40K games!